Kennedy Assassination

[jkjsooner]

Since we're coming upon the 50th anniversary and we're all about to be deluged with shows on the assassination, I'm curious about your opinions on it.

Here's my opinion. I'm not much into conspiracy theories. Most are just ignorant ramblings from half crazy people. I think the Kennedy assassination is different.

I do believe that Oswald was the only shooter. I think the evidence is pretty clear and most of the purported evidence to the contrary has been fully debunked. As for whether there was a conspiracy, I think it could go either way. Oswald could very likely have acted alone but it is just as likely that one of the groups put him up to it. I just don't know if there is sufficient evidence to claim any particular group so short of more evidence we have to assume no conspiracy.

One thing I'm sure of is that if there was a conspiracy the number of individuals involved would have had to have been very small.


Edit: I'm allowing multiple selections as the options are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I probably should have had a "single shooter" option as Oswald alone implies single shooter but single shooter does not imply Oswald was the shooter nor does it imply that there were not others involved in the conspiracy. Anyway, just pick the ones that you feel fit.

[SicEmBaylor]

Johnson and a cabal of others....possibly including the mob.

I don't believe there was more than one gunman, but I'm only about 50% sure that Oswald was the lone gunman.

In any case, I'm pretty convinced LBJ was involved.

[KantoSooner]

Thank you sticking with Occam's Razor and going with the simplest explanation in lieu of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Here's one way I've thought about it over the years:

We have a government that can't cover up a sitting US President getting a BJ. And hires high school dropouts for 130K a year, allows them to work in Honolulu and then gives them access to the full panoply of classified information. And so forth. And this same organization supposedly conducted a conspiracy of this magnitude....and nobody talks? Ever? For fifty years?

[8timechamps]

I spent a large part of my senior year in college on this subject. I am no expert, but had read just about everything there was to read on the matter (at that time).

Like jk, I'm not a conspiracy theory guy, but this is different.

I'm not entirely convinced that Oswald was even a shooter, let alone the only shooter. I believe there was more than one gunman.

While security was nothing like it is today, there (in my mind) is no way a single person can plan and execute what Oswald supposedly did. I think the evidence was pretty clear that more than one gunman was involved.

I don't believe the government was involved, but I do believe there may have been a few folks in high positions that knew about the plan.

Oswald was an easy fall guy. So, he took the fall. I believe the mob had a big hand in the assassination, and saw to it that Oswald never made it to a court room.

[8timechamps]

Thank you sticking with Occam's Razor and going with the simplest explanation in lieu of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Here's one way I've thought about it over the years:

We have a government that can't cover up a sitting US President getting a BJ. And hires high school dropouts for 130K a year, allows them to work in Honolulu and then gives them access to the full panoply of classified information. And so forth. And this same organization supposedly conducted a conspiracy of this magnitude....and nobody talks? Ever? For fifty years?

It goes without saying that the early 60's were very different than the late 90's-present. The technology alone has a lot to do with what we are able to learn about current political figures. That simply was not available back then.

Like I said above, I don't believe the government had a hand in the assassination, but I think there were members of the clandestine services that were aware of the possibility.

Since I believe the mafia had a big hand in this, I don't find it hard to believe they kept a lid on it. At the time, anyone that knew, knew their life was on the line. As time passed, the assassination became such an event that I don't think anyone involved would ever speak of it knowing the potential backlash.

I think the evidence supports more than one gunman, but again, the technology being what it was at the time, simply could not be proven beyond a doubt. In the end, the government and the people of the country wanted someone to hold accountable, and they got their man.

[SicEmBaylor]

Thank you sticking with Occam's Razor and going with the simplest explanation in lieu of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Here's one way I've thought about it over the years:

We have a government that can't cover up a sitting US President getting a BJ. And hires high school dropouts for 130K a year, allows them to work in Honolulu and then gives them access to the full panoply of classified information. And so forth. And this same organization supposedly conducted a conspiracy of this magnitude....and nobody talks? Ever? For fifty years?

The problem with this theory is that we live in a very different world than 50 years ago. That was the old WWII generation, and those bastards damned well did know how to keep a secret.

[rock on sooner]

It would be interesting to know where the poll respondents were on
Nov. 22, 1963. I'm not responding to the poll but I was in Morse
Intercept class at Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS....

[KantoSooner]

SicEm,
In fifty years time lots happens: people get old and sick and not so satisfied with the bargains they made years before...and what they were paid for said bargains. I'm a big believer in human nature: nothing this tasty would stay sealed for this long.

The mob itself was torn down by squealers, starting in the 1930's. So much for the honorable tough guys of old. Nothing came out of the Lubyanka when it was an open book...to the point that Hitler's remains and the Katyn Forest were finally owned up to. And, Lord knows, the tell all memoirs of our very own secret services' veterans routinely occupy the top of best seller lists.

I just don't buy that this could have been kept secret by any more than Ben Franklin's (our first intelligence directory) maxim which holds, "Three can keep a secret, if two are dead."

Oswald, alone, may be improbable, but everything else seems impossible and utterly lacking in evidence. But, it's like an ink blot test; people see what they want to see in it. I'm big into seeing the world as a wonderful place, but also one that is fundamentally mundane, rather than one that involves conspiracies on all sides.

[cleller]

It would be interesting to know where the poll respondents were on
Nov. 22, 1963. I'm not responding to the poll but I was in Morse
Intercept class at Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS....

I've always wished I was old enough to remember this. Would have been 18 months old. Had a friend that was in grade school at the time, and has vivid memories of getting let out of school a few days around then.

We have old movies my dad took of the funeral on the big old B/W console.

I lost all confidence in the multiple shooters theory one day while hearing the echoes from the gun range bouncing off a building about 100 yards away. The echoes were indistinguishable from the actual gunshots.

[ouwasp]

I was 7 months old when JFK was killed by Oswald. I believe Lee Harvey to be the only shooter. I've read some of the conspiracy stuff... just not convinced it wouldn't come out in all this time.

I am convinced the JFK Conspiracy Industry will continue pumping out books and theories as long as folks are willing to spend $$ on them. So we will never see the end to it. And there will always be that element of doubt...

[Soonerjeepman]

what about John Wilkes Booth...?


oh wait, wrong thread! lol

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The 50th anniversary of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy draws ever closer, and with it a spate of reconsiderations and new analyses of the day the president was shot in Dallas. Who killed Kennedy? How? Were multiple parties involved? You'll hear all sides over the next few weeks. But one father-son team is trying to solve the mystery of one of the most perplexing elements of the assassination: the so-called "Magic Bullet."

As part of a Nova television documentary, "Cold Case JFK," Luke and Michael Haag used 3D imaging technology to research the trajectory of the single bullet, the one which apparently passed through both Kennedy and Texas Gov. John Connally. The question of whether one bullet could do so much damage has vexed investigators for decades. The Haags believe they now have an answer.

Could one bullet have passed through Kennedy and wounded Connally? "Easily," Luke Haag said according to CBS News.

When fired, the 6.5-millimeter Carcano bullet is an "extremely stable" bullet, Luke Haag said, but Connally's wound was consistent with a tumbling bullet, one which would have had to hit something en route to hitting Connally. That "something" was the President.

"It's like a badly thrown football. It normally flies true and straight. When this bullet emerged from Kennedy – or any ballistic medium ... it's now yawing and tumbling," Haag said. "The entry wound in Connally is very important because it's the consequence of a yawed bullet, so it had to be a destabilized bullet from somewhere."

The shot that Lee Harvey Oswald had to make was not that difficult, according to the Haags. And the idea that the gun Oswald used was of a poor quality is simply not true, they contend: "If the bore in the rifle is good, it's a good shooter," Luke Haag said, "and it was a good shooter, unfortunately for President Kennedy."

[Turd_Ferguson]

The fatal shot came from the limo driver...

[Turd_Ferguson]

The 50th anniversary of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy draws ever closer, and with it a spate of reconsiderations and new analyses of the day the president was shot in Dallas. Who killed Kennedy? How? Were multiple parties involved? You'll hear all sides over the next few weeks. But one father-son team is trying to solve the mystery of one of the most perplexing elements of the assassination: the so-called "Magic Bullet."

As part of a Nova television documentary, "Cold Case JFK," Luke and Michael Haag used 3D imaging technology to research the trajectory of the single bullet, the one which apparently passed through both Kennedy and Texas Gov. John Connally. The question of whether one bullet could do so much damage has vexed investigators for decades. The Haags believe they now have an answer.

Could one bullet have passed through Kennedy and wounded Connally? "Easily," Luke Haag said according to CBS News.

When fired, the 6.5-millimeter Carcano bullet is an "extremely stable" bullet, Luke Haag said, but Connally's wound was consistent with a tumbling bullet, one which would have had to hit something en route to hitting Connally. That "something" was the President.

"It's like a badly thrown football. It normally flies true and straight. When this bullet emerged from Kennedy – or any ballistic medium ... it's now yawing and tumbling," Haag said. "The entry wound in Connally is very important because it's the consequence of a yawed bullet, so it had to be a destabilized bullet from somewhere."

The shot that Lee Harvey Oswald had to make was not that difficult, according to the Haags. And the idea that the gun Oswald used was of a poor quality is simply not true, they contend: "If the bore in the rifle is good, it's a good shooter," Luke Haag said, "and it was a good shooter, unfortunately for President Kennedy."

Umm, I didn't think the question was how it could have done so much damage, as it was how did it change trajectories multiple times...

[olevetonahill]

Heh, Kanto 2 of em ARE dead, Oswald and Ruby.

As far as secrets go? Have ya ever heard of a Aszhole named J Edgar?

I dont think it was a Large conspiracy, But I dont see O having the smarts to pull it off by himself.
I voted
"OTHER" cause IMHO we will never know.

I was in Junior High when it happened.

[KantoSooner]

I put it in the same category as the 'George Bush and Dick Cheney personally wired the World Trade Centers and blew them up; the airliner passengers are all being held in Guantanemo and that's why Obama doesn't want to close it down' theory.

[olevetonahill]

I put it in the same category as the 'George Bush and Dick Cheney personally wired the World Trade Centers and blew them up; the airliner passengers are all being held in Guantanemo and that's why Obama doesn't want to close it down' theory.

Kinda agree Bro. I just dont see O as ever being smart enough to have pulled it off by himself, I also dont see a Conspiracy Of the Mob, the Russians and the CIA.

[jkjsooner]

It would be interesting to know where the poll respondents were on
Nov. 22, 1963. I'm not responding to the poll but I was in Morse
Intercept class at Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS....

I was born in '71. Growing up it almost seemed like ancient history. It was only eight years before I was born and now that I'm 42 I realize just how short eight years are.

I guess the fact that almost all TV broadcasts were black and white influenced my perception of time although I think all kids have a drastically different perception of time than adults.

Complete side point, I'd imagine to young kids today when they see standard definition TV recordings it probably brings up the same thoughts as black and white did to me.

[KantoSooner]

Kinda agree Bro. I just dont see O as ever being smart enough to have pulled it off by himself, I also dont see a Conspiracy Of the Mob, the Russians and the CIA.
Even a blind squirrel can sometimes find a nut.

[C&CDean]

Here's my take on it.

I'm a pretty damn good shot with a rifle. Qualified Expert with an M-16 back in the day, and have slain many a deer in my years. I have a buttload of older and modern bolt action rifles in many calibers that I can aims, fire, manipulate the bolt, take aim again, and fire again fairly quickly.

I don't really remember how long it was between shots, but it wasn't very long. Then you take into account the target was a head, and it was moving at what, 5 - 10 mph? Anybody who's ever hunted knows about buck fever, and I would guess ol' Oswald had a serious case of it.

So, here's what we have: A couple three damn near perfectly placed shots on a moving target while you have enough adrenaline coursing through your veins to kill you. Horse****. Complete and total horse****. Oswald wasn't that good. Was he that lucky? Doubtful.

I don't know about any big, involved conspiracy, but I do know that there's probably not a handful of people on this planet who could replicate those shots - with a POS of **** Italian rifle no less.

[ouwasp]

I don't think there is a lot of doubt that Oswald shot JFK on 11/22/63. Did he act alone, that's the question that will never be satisfied.

[Wishboned]

I believe from everything I've read, and all the disputing theories, that Oswald acted alone.

[lexsooner]

Here's my take on it.

I'm a pretty damn good shot with a rifle. Qualified Expert with an M-16 back in the day, and have slain many a deer in my years. I have a buttload of older and modern bolt action rifles in many calibers that I can aims, fire, manipulate the bolt, take aim again, and fire again fairly quickly.

I don't really remember how long it was between shots, but it wasn't very long. Then you take into account the target was a head, and it was moving at what, 5 - 10 mph? Anybody who's ever hunted knows about buck fever, and I would guess ol' Oswald had a serious case of it.

So, here's what we have: A couple three damn near perfectly placed shots on a moving target while you have enough adrenaline coursing through your veins to kill you. Horse****. Complete and total horse****. Oswald wasn't that good. Was he that lucky? Doubtful.

I don't know about any big, involved conspiracy, but I do know that there's probably not a handful of people on this planet who could replicate those shots - with a POS of **** Italian rifle no less.

Oswald fired three shots. One missed completely; another hit JFK in the upper back and went through his neck; the third was a fatal head shot. That's not exactly perfection.

[C&CDean]

Oswald fired three shots. One missed completely; another hit JFK in the upper back and went through his neck; the third was a fatal head shot. That's not exactly perfection.

You've never fired a rifle, have you?

[lexsooner]

You've never fired a rifle, have you?

Yes, I have. I'm not questioning your knowledge of rifles, but the point is you stated the shots were all near perfectly placed, and that's not true. It was not easy shooting by any means, but Oswald was trained. He was not an expert sharpshooter like the press sometimes reports, but he was quite proficient. Three shots with one miss, one non-fatal hit, and a fatal hit is not at all implausible, especially if you consider he was practically right on top of the limo. If you haven't gone to the Sixth Floor museum, it is well worth seeing.

[C&CDean]

Yes, I have. I'm not questioning your knowledge of rifles, but the point is you stated the shots were all near perfectly placed, and that's not true. It was not easy shooting by any means, but Oswald was trained. He was not an expert sharpshooter like the press sometimes reports, but he was quite proficient. Three shots with one miss, one non-fatal hit, and a fatal hit is not at all implausible, especially if you consider he was practically right on top of the limo. If you haven't gone to the Sixth Floor museum, it is well worth seeing.

What bothers me is that he missed the first, yet nailed the next two. The neck shot was pretty close to perfect given the circumstances, and the head shot was, well, perfect. And it was the farthest of the 3.

I've missed deer at 100 yards trying a head shot. While they're standing still. I still can't buy he made those shots by himself. If he did, he's the luckiest shot alive.

And yes, I've been there several times. Very interesting place.

[Wishboned]

I took my grandson in 2012 the day after the Texas game. I'd never been. My grandson was 8 at the time. We both enjoyed it a great deal. And he can still tell you everything he learned that day.

[olevetonahill]

Even a blind squirrel can sometimes find a nut.

Too many COINCIDENCES for my beliefs.
O moves to Dallas with out his wife
O gets a Job In the Book Depository
Several others that I dont have time tolist right now. and all this Just 2 months Before JFKs trip to Dallas

[8timechamps]

A big deal was made of the fact that Oswald was an 'expert' shot in the Marine Corp. That's not true. When Oswald took his initial test, he was scored a "Sharpshooter". A few years later (all of this prior to the Assassination), he retested and his level was dropped to "Marksman". There are three levels of shooters in the Marine Corps, the lowest is Marksman (which means you passed with the minimal allowable score), Sharpshooter (mid range) and Elite (top of the class). If a Marine is identified as an elite shooter, he/she in strongly encouraged to pursue Sniper School. Oswald wasn't even close to elite.

The two shots that landed were both within less than a foot from one another. That means he was able to get off three rounds, on a moving target from over 80 meters away, and landing two of those just seems highly improbable to me.

Like Dean said, there were probably only a handful of people on the plant that could have made that shot in 1963. I don't think Oswald was one of them.

[olevetonahill]

A big deal was made of the fact that Oswald was an 'expert' shot in the Marine Corp. That's not true. When Oswald took his initial test, he was scored a "Sharpshooter". A few years later (all of this prior to the Assassination), he retested and his level was dropped to "Marksman". There are three levels of shooters in the Marine Corps, the lowest is Marksman (which means you passed with the minimal allowable score), Sharpshooter (mid range) and Elite (top of the class). If a Marine is identified as an elite shooter, he/she in strongly encouraged to pursue Sniper School. Oswald wasn't even close to elite.

The two shots that landed were both within less than a foot from one another. That means he was able to get off three rounds, on a moving target from over 80 meters away, and landing two of those just seems highly improbable to me.

Like Dean said, there were probably only a handful of people on the plant that could have made that shot in 1963. I don't think Oswald was one of them.

Yup, I been shooting fer ?? well lets see Im 63 now so prolly close to 80 years

Very doubtful in my Natural Prime I could have done it.Doubtful myass Aint NO WAY I could have gotten off 2 more shots with accuracy shooting Down hill at a Moving target. See The timing thing dont start till AFTER shot #1 so he had what almost 8 seconds to throw the bolt, reacquire target, and squeeze off the shot TWICE using a 4 power scope,
hell I'd rather have Open sights at that range

[FaninAma]

Thank you sticking with Occam's Razor and going with the simplest explanation in lieu of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Here's one way I've thought about it over the years:

We have a government that can't cover up a sitting US President getting a BJ. And hires high school dropouts for 130K a year, allows them to work in Honolulu and then gives them access to the full panoply of classified information. And so forth. And this same organization supposedly conducted a conspiracy of this magnitude....and nobody talks? Ever? For fifty years?

That's because it wasn't the government. It was a group who is very adept at operating secretly and keeping their business and clandestine operations secret. You would have to be insane to do anything through our legitimate government and expect it to be successful or secretive.

It was also done to maintain control of our financial system. All you need to understand about who killed Kennedy is to know what one of JFK's last executive orders was before he was assasinated and that he even lobbied Congress to codify that order into law and that after he was assasinated the order was never enforced by his successor or the US Treasury. In fact the order was unilaterally negated by the Secretary of the Treasury early in 1964.

[8timechamps]

Yup, I been shooting fer ?? well lets see Im 63 now so prolly close to 80 years

Very doubtful in my Natural Prime I could have done it.Doubtful myass Aint NO WAY I could have gotten off 2 more shots with accuracy shooting Down hill at a Moving target. See The timing thing dont start till AFTER shot #1 so he had what almost 8 seconds to throw the bolt, reacquire target, and squeeze off the shot TWICE using a 4 power scope,
hell I'd rather have Open sights at that range

Then there's the "attention" thing. If Oswald was so hell bent on getting away, would he really have risked three shots? Maybe he had some super human power that had never been seen, but I just find it really, really hard to believe he was that good yet had never exhibited that at anytime in the past, when he had multiple opportunities.

There's just so many thing about this that don't seem to add up. Conflicting testimony is a big one. Then the odd occurrences that happened immediately afterward. It may have all been Oswald, acting alone, just a zealous nut. But, like you said, there just seems to be too many coincidences.

[olevetonahill]

Then there's the "attention" thing. If Oswald was so hell bent on getting away, would he really have risked three shots? Maybe he had some super human power that had never been seen, but I just find it really, really hard to believe he was that good yet had never exhibited that at anytime in the past, when he had multiple opportunities.

There's just so many thing about this that don't seem to add up. Conflicting testimony is a big one. Then the odd occurrences that happened immediately afterward. It may have all been Oswald, acting alone, just a zealous nut. But, like you said, there just seems to be too many coincidences.

Yup, Whats with Ruby walking right up to him in the PoPo basement and pluggin him, Then dying shortly there after of
galloping lung cancer
Ruby had worked for the Mob and even ran guns into Cuba for Castros boys.
2 Fall guys IMHO

[Wishboned]

Here's a video of the CBS recreation in a documentary they did in 1967.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WovyEqfR8Hg

[yermom]

i think what gets overlooked is not if LHO did it or if he had help when he did, but why?

who put him up to it? was Jack Ruby just shutting him up?

people were telling him not to go to Dallas, so someone knew something was at least a little strange beforehand

[olevetonahill]

i think what gets overlooked is not if LHO did it or if he had help when he did, but why?

who put him up to it? was Jack Ruby just shutting him up?

people were telling him not to go to Dallas, so someone knew something was at least a little strange beforehand

Thats My beliefe bro. i dont see a Large conspiracy but I do see moren just LHO involved. Ruby poppin hin front of the Cops with His criminal background and Gun running ties to Cuba just makes it curiouser

[cleller]

Regardless of how improbable it seems that Oswald made those shots, the rifle was found there. Oswald's behavior strongly indicates he did the shooting. Since no credible evidence has ever been located to place an additional shooter, what other conclusion can you really draw?

Another rifleman in another location that was never identified? That is more improbable than Oswald making the shots.

Things that are hard to imagine, and defy odds happen every day. OU fans should know that.

[Jacie]

Unless Lee Harvey had ice water instead of blood coursing through his veins, his heart rate had to have been through the roof. That he managed 2 outa 3 hits with a bolt action rifle in five seconds (one a potential kill shot, the other for sure) on a moving target was pretty damned impressive or would be if he were indeed the Lone Gunman. One of the rounds, the Magic Bullet, wounded Governor Connolly as well and as the story goes, it was found, intact on the gurney having passed through JFK's back, exited his throat and into the Governor's arm then leg. Perhaps the more experienced amongst us can say whether or not a bullet passing through soft tissue would not fragment or deform after all that and then on it's own, fall out of the body where it must have come to rest. Well? And don't even get me started on the patriot Jack Ruby, who no doubt incensed over the killing of his favorite President, took matters in his own hands to deal justice to Oswald.

For a little lurid reading, check out Jack Ruby. The guy was something else. It isn't that he had ties to the mob, he was as mob as you could get and be in Dallas in 1963. The amazing part isn't that he was able to walk in unopposed to a Dallas police station, the guy had cops on the take so they knew him well. No, it is that he was in so deep that when he was told to do the hit, he did it without question, no consideration for his own welfare or means of escape. You think an organization with that sort of control could not kill a President? They were able to kill a President in 1963 and a candidate in 1968 to protect their interests.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Johnson and a cabal of others....possibly including the mob.

I don't believe there was more than one gunman, but I'm only about 50% sure that Oswald was the lone gunman.

In any case, I'm pretty convinced LBJ was involved.

Agreed, No way Oswald acted alone. Some are now saying the a SS return fire hit Kennedy in the head, the second shot... But so much is unknown and I truly think there is a conspiracy, just don't know what or who...

[C&CDean]

It's also kinda weird how the first bullet that hit Kennedy cleanly passed through a couple body parts on him and Connelly (including bone), changed directions, and ended up "pristine" and the bullet that hit his melon blew it up like a .... melon? FMJ ammo usually doesn't come apart and mushroom and blow a head up like Kennedy's was.

[ouwasp]

If JFK were to be exhumed, what could be learned from an autopsy conducted present-day?

[olevetonahill]

If JFK were Alive today He would be an Old fart and we wouldnt be having this conversation.
jes sayin

[cleller]

If there is any actual evidence that points toward anyone but Oswald, it sure has managed to stay hidden well.

People believe what they want in spite of evidence too often. That's how Gene Leroy Hart got acquitted of the Girl Scout murders.

[GDC]

People believe what they want in spite of evidence too often. That's how Gene Leroy Hart got acquitted of the Girl Scout murders.

Come again?

[cleller]

Come again?

Very famous case from 1977 in Locust Grove. 3 girls scouts were raped and murdered at Camp Scott. Gene Leroy Hart, a jail escapee with a history of rape and assault was captured after a lengthy manhunt. Despite much evidence, Hart was acquitted because he was portrayed as a local boy, a HS football hero wrongly accused. He was sent to prison on his escaped charge, and suddenly died of a heart attack. No one else was ever charged.

Years later DNA tests were done, that were not conclusive, but strongly pointed to Hart. The odds were 1 in 7,700 American Indians would have matched the crime scene samples as Hart did. (Hart was indian)
http://newsok.com/dna-tests-link-gene-leroy-hart-to-girl-scout-deaths/article/2287953

Hopefully some folks saw the Nova program on PBS tonight about the Kennedy killing. Pretty exhaustive study with some impressive technology available today, and it all supported Oswald as the lone killer. They were even given access to Kennedy's clothing, autopsy records, etc at the National Archives thru the Kennedy family.
Their conclusions: Only three shots fired. All by Oswald. The tumbling bullet was recreated time and again in their research. The bullet recovered in Dallas showed the same deforming that was recreated in the tests. All consistent with the injuries to Kennedy and Connally. No chance any bullet hit Kennedy from the grassy knoll.

Well done. Witnesses, investigators, scientists, pathologists, sound experts, firearms experts.

[olevetonahill]

If shat hits the fan
Be Glad
yer Spic an Span

[lexsooner]

Hopefully some folks saw the Nova program on PBS tonight about the Kennedy killing. Pretty exhaustive study with some impressive technology available today, and it all supported Oswald as the lone killer. They were even given access to Kennedy's clothing, autopsy records, etc at the National Archives thru the Kennedy family.
Their conclusions: Only three shots fired. All by Oswald. The tumbling bullet was recreated time and again in their research. The bullet recovered in Dallas showed the same deforming that was recreated in the tests. All consistent with the injuries to Kennedy and Connally. No chance any bullet hit Kennedy from the grassy knoll.

Well done. Witnesses, investigators, scientists, pathologists, sound experts, firearms experts.

Yup, what a lot of folks forget is the evidence which does exist points to Oswald as the only shooter from the Sixth Floor of the Book Depository. Ballistics testing showed the Italian rifle found in another part of the Sixth Floor was the weapon which fired the bullets which struck JFK and Connally. The shell casings on the floor were expelled from that same rifle. Oswald's palm print was found on the rifle. All existing credible evidence points to Oswald as the lone shooter.

Now we can all speculate as to whether Oswald was a lone wolf or others used him as part of a grand conspiracy, but to date there is no credible evidence indicating there was anyone involved besides Oswald. Unless there is any evidence to the contrary, I can only conclude Oswald was in it by himself. Any other theories are just, at best, speculative. I used to think there may have been something to the mob theory, but the more I learned about it, it just came up short. Ruby was a joke figure among the creatures of the Dallas underworld, one of the biggest blabber mouths in town. His closest tie to the mob was through his Dallas friend Joe Campisi who was a close associate of the New Orleans mafia boss who supposedly had a grudge against Kennedy. After Ruby killed Oswald, he asked Campisi to come visit him in the county jail and Campisi visited him. I don't think the mob is that stupid - hire the biggest blabbermouth schmuck in the city to silence Oswald, and then allow your Dallas boss Campisi go to visit him in jail.

[cleller]

For those that think Oswald was just not a good enough marksman to hit the target, my wife offered a good theory. Maybe he was really aiming at Jackie, and missed all three times?

[lexsooner]

For those that think Oswald was just not a good enough marksman to hit the target, my wife offered a good theory. Maybe he was really aiming at Jackie, and missed all three times?

Well, that voice could drive anyone to murder.

[OULenexaman]

If you ever tried to fire off 3 rounds from that POS Bolt action rifle, and my dad had 2 of them, in that amount of time you'd know there was a second shooter. It can't be done.

[diverdog]

I am not going to weigh in on the conspiracy theories but I will tell you a story. My dad was stationed at Brooks AFB in Texas and I saw Kennedy the day before he was killed. Our neighbors took my mom, my sis and myself to see him. It was one of my earliest childhood memories. The next day our neighbor came over and told my mom he had been shot. For some reason mom grabbed us and we went to the commissary. As we were getting out of the car the national anthem began playing. Everyone knew he died but it was not announced. Mom gathered us back up and we went to the chapel where people were flocking in....most weeping. For us it was a big deal because we were Irish Catholic and had faced a lot of discrimination. Jack was our ticket to a better life or so we thought. Shortly after my dad finished school and was assigned to fly Johnson.

[SOONER44EVER]

If I remember right there were several eye witnesses who saw other shooters. Thos eye witnesses all mysteriously died. Weird stuff.

[lexsooner]

If you ever tried to fire off 3 rounds from that POS Bolt action rifle, and my dad had 2 of them, in that amount of time you'd know there was a second shooter. It can't be done.

It was done, repeatedly, during tests conducted by the Warren Commission using the actual Oswald rifle and a duplicated environment; and it was done again, by CBS News using a group of shooters of varying levels of skill; and the 1979 House Committee did test fires to see if two shots could be delivered within 2.1 seconds - two less than expert shooters did it easily.

[lexsooner]

If I remember right there were several eye witnesses who saw other shooters. Thos eye witnesses all mysteriously died. Weird stuff.

This conspiracy theory holds that there was a massive "clean up squad" of assassins who snuffed out all the key witnesses who could testify to facts other than a lone gunman in the Book Depository. The problem is most of these key conspiracy witnesses lived past the year 2000. At least one is still alive. With his luck, he will outlive the "snuff squad."

[Salt City Sooner]

Just FWIW, you may or may not agree w/ his politics, but O'Reilly's book on this is one heck of a read.

[8timechamps]

It was done, repeatedly, during tests conducted by the Warren Commission using the actual Oswald rifle and a duplicated environment; and it was done again, by CBS News using a group of shooters of varying levels of skill; and the 1979 House Committee did test fires to see if two shots could be delivered within 2.1 seconds - two less than expert shooters did it easily.

At one time, I was considered an expert marksman. I couldn't get two shots within a foot of each other at that distance withing 3 seconds, on a stationary target...Let alone a moving target. Now, I'm not saying it can't be done, I am only saying what I was/wasn't able to do, which is why I still have doubts.

I've seen the test results, and all of the information the Warren Commission collected (that has been made public), and there are still plenty of inconsistencies. Other than the amazing feat Oswald pulled off (in his shooting), there are the eyewitnesses that saw a flash and heard a noise from the 'grassy knoll'. There wasn't just one or two people that reported that, it was dozens.

Again, I'm not saying that Oswald didn't pull the whole thing off alone. What I'm saying is that I'm not 100% convinced that there wasn't at least one other shooter. I doubt we'll ever know if that was the case.

[olevetonahill]

If you think and believe the LHO planned and pulled this off By himself AND made those 3 shots. Then I bet ya believe in Superman. Santy Clause and the ****ing tooth fairy to dont ya?

[Flagstaffsooner]

Who cares, we got rid of that sob only to be replaced by another one that gave Vet a free trip to Nam.

[SicEmBaylor]

It was LBJ with the candle stick in the parlor.

[olevetonahill]

It was LBJ with the candle stick in the parlor.

heh, My Dad was convinced till the day he Died that Nixon was involved!:dog:

[lexsooner]

Again, I'm not saying that Oswald didn't pull the whole thing off alone. What I'm saying is that I'm not 100% convinced that there wasn't at least one other shooter. I doubt we'll ever know if that was the case.

OK, that's perfectly reasonable, 8time. I am just going with what evidence does exist. I can't agree with those who say it was impossible that Oswald pulled off all those shots by himself. There was enough testing that it was shown Oswald could have done it by himself. Easy, no, but definitely do-able by Oswald, who was a pretty good shot. The ballistics testing showed two of the three slugs came from Oswald's rifle. The third slug was too shattered to make any conclusions. The shell casings on the floor came from his rifle. The Italian rifle was Oswald's and was found on the Sixth Floor of the Depository with his palm print. And even though it was a low quality rifle, the experts did fire it and it fired accurately. So the evidence conclusively shows Oswald was the shooter of JFK. Now is it possible there was a second shooter, which means Oswald was not a lone wolf? Yes, perhaps, but half a century after the shooting, there has not been anything credible indicating anyone but Oswald shot JFK or was otherwise involved in the murder, so I have to go with the existing evidence and conclude Oswald was in it by himself, as was Ruby. Anything else would be speculation at best.

[8timechamps]

OK, that's perfectly reasonable, 8time. I am just going with what evidence does exist. I can't agree with those who say it was impossible that Oswald pulled off all those shots by himself. There was enough testing that it was shown Oswald could have done it by himself. Easy, no, but definitely do-able by Oswald, who was a pretty good shot. The ballistics testing showed two of the three slugs came from Oswald's rifle. The third slug was too shattered to make any conclusions. The shell casings on the floor came from his rifle. The Italian rifle was Oswald's and was found on the Sixth Floor of the Depository with his palm print. And even though it was a low quality rifle, the experts did fire it and it fired accurately. So the evidence conclusively shows Oswald was the shooter of JFK. Now is it possible there was a second shooter, which means Oswald was not a lone wolf? Yes, perhaps, but half a century after the shooting, there has not been anything credible indicating anyone but Oswald shot JFK or was otherwise involved in the murder, so I have to go with the existing evidence and conclude Oswald was in it by himself, as was Ruby. Anything else would be speculation at best.

I can live with speculation in this instance (I'm not a conspiracy theorist on any other matter).

Maybe because I don't have the mind of Ruby, but for the life of me, I can't imagine why he would just decide to take Oswald out alone. Not just that, but he knew he would be caught immediately.

Maybe it's because I don't posses the mind of those kinds of guys, and I just cannot understand where they were coming from, but I think I'll always have a question about all of this, tucked away in my mind.

I've been to the Museum, and it was very interesting. In fact, I'd like to take my youngest son back, as he seems to have a similar interest in these kinds of things.

[SicEmBaylor]

heh, My Dad was convinced till the day he Died that Nixon was involved!:dog:

I certainly would not put it past Nixon, but I truly believe LBJ was a party to the conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

[lexsooner]

Maybe because I don't have the mind of Ruby, but for the life of me, I can't imagine why he would just decide to take Oswald out alone. Not just that, but he knew he would be caught immediately.

Maybe it's because I don't posses the mind of those kinds of guys, and I just cannot understand where they were coming from, but I think I'll always have a question about all of this, tucked away in my mind.

I guess we will never know and we can only, well, speculate, but Ruby was supposedly a huge admirer of the Kennedys and he felt his actions would make him a hero and keep Jackie from having to endure a painful criminal prosecution of Oswald. If I recall from the museum, those who knew Ruby stated that Jack figured he would get a medal for killing Oswald. I get the impression these statements were made with eyes rolled.

I do think it is terribly hard for law-abiding types like us to understand the minds and actions of anti-social criminal types like Ruby or Oswald who are law breaking by nature and don't play by the established rules of society. None of us are totally rational people, but so many crimes seem to be committed without much rational thought by the perp of an escape plan or self preservation.

What I find most astounding is how two insignificant oddballs were able to change the course of history through their actions which took a total of mere seconds. Amazing.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

not sure if Oswald was someone's stooge, but I think he acted alone on that day.

[SouthFortySooner]

I was only concerned because Saturday morning cartoons were not on. Not really politically in touch at 5.

[olevetonahill]

not sure if Oswald was someone's stooge, but I think he acted alone on that day.

What time does Santy Clause come to yer shack?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What time does Santy Clause come to yer shack?

¿qué?

[lexsooner]

¿qué?


In his earlier post, Vet stated you had to believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, etc., if you believe Oswald was the lone shooter that day. I don't want to speak for you, but maybe your opinions are based upon actual evidence instead of personal estimates of shooting abilities.

[olevetonahill]

In his earlier post, Vet stated you had to believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, etc., if you believe Oswald was the lone shooter that day. I don't want to speak for you, but maybe your opinions are based upon actual evidence instead of personal estimates of shooting abilities.

Heres the Quote Bro

If you think and believe the LHO planned and pulled this off By himself AND made those 3 shots. Then I bet ya believe in Superman. Santy Clause and the ****ing tooth fairy to dont ya?

Now see what I Really said there? Its conceivable That ole LHO Made those shots( Doubtful but conceivable )

But it is totally Inconceivable That he was Smart enough to PLAN, and then Execute that Plan and then be so lucky as Make those shots.
The Dude was a Total **** up. No way he Planned that then got that lucky.
Now what time Is Santy showing up I wanta meet him.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Vet, the santa metaphor actually fits the 2nd gunman theory better. Someone people talk about but no one ever saw him.



As amazing that Oswald could get off two shots within 2.1 seconds, would be the synchronizing of two gunmen to shoot within 2.1 seconds of each other - unless you think the second gunman is shooting out the same window as LHO. Where do you think he was?

[olevetonahill]

Vet, the santa metaphor actually fits the 2nd gunman theory better. Someone people talk about but no one ever saw him.



As amazing that Oswald could get off two shots within 2.1 seconds, would be the synchronizing of two gunmen to shoot within 2.1 seconds of each other - unless you think the second gunman is shooting out the same window as LHO. Where do you think he was?

I never said there was another gunman,( as in a Second Shooter shooting from somewhere else) Think a minute tho , The Gun was found in another room from where the shots were fired, Correct? Ole Lees PALM print only was found on the rifle. Correct? Most any of us that were around back then and Reasonably interested understood Lee was a Total **** up. Now If Ole Lee wasnt smart enough and Good enough, Who was?
Think about that fer awhile.

[Breadburner]

Oswald did this on his own....He almost pulled off sniping a general before JFK...He missed him by less than an inch while he was sitting at his desk.....

[Turd_Ferguson]

Oswald did this on his own....He almost pulled off sniping a general before JFK...He missed him by less than an inch while he was sitting at his desk.....

SITTING at his desk, not moving, and how long of a shot was that?

[8timechamps]

SITTING at his desk, not moving, and how long of a shot was that?

Exactly. He was much closer to General Walker, and Walker was stationary. He can't make that shot, but can make the amazing one's on JFK?!

[yermom]

maybe he practiced a lot after that? :D

[olevetonahill]

maybe he practiced a lot after that? :D

Russians an Cubans sent him to Gun Skool !

[jkjsooner]

SITTING at his desk, not moving, and how long of a shot was that?

The bullet hit the frame of a window and was deflected. The shot could have been right on the money but of course he didn't have the clear shot he had on Kennedy.

As for Kennedy moving, much of that movement was away from (in line of) the firing trajectory.

[jkjsooner]

Anyone watch the CBS "live" streaming coverage over the last few days. They started at exactly the time that they cut into "As the World Turns" on that Friday 50 years ago and have streamed their entire broadcast. It's still on today with the funeral.

It's been fascinating. It helped that the days of the week match up which really makes you feel like you're experiencing it live.

One thing that struck me was that Cronkite at one point was talking about the reaction of the foreign governments and heads of state. He said all countries (including communist ones) expressed their condolences except for China. He said China was silent and their newspapers ran really disgusting cartoons depicting Kennedy in their newspapers. I know it was 50 years ago but it kinda pissed me off.

[Turd_Ferguson]

The bullet hit the frame of a window and was deflected. The shot could have been right on the money but of course he didn't have the clear shot he had on Kennedy.

As for Kennedy moving, much of that movement was away from (in line of) the firing trajectory.

I see, so the shot could have been on the money but he missed...go tit.

[KantoSooner]

jk, console yourself with the knowledge that most, if not all of the folks responsible for those cartoons ended up 'committing suicide' in detention only a few short years later. China in the 1960's was like climbing a greased phone pole with a bunch of bears at the bottom.