Be careful what you wish for Texas...

[8timechamps]

By now, I think everyone knows that 99.9% of the Longhorn fan base wants Mack gone at the end of the year (sooner, if possible). It would almost be sad, if I didn't take such enjoyment in Texas' sucking.

Assuming things go as most think they will, and Texas has somewhere in the neighborhood of a 7-4 year, then surely Mack goes...let's assume he does for the purposes of this post.

Then what?

I'm not going to profess any kind of love for Mack Brown (other than the love I get from the RRR). But, let's look at what he's done at Texas since he got there:

Total record at Texas (99-2012): 150-43 (.777)

Now, let's look at some history, and see where Mack ranks among Texas coaches of the modern era (post WWII):

1. Mack Brown .777
2. Daryl Royal .774
3. Blair Cherry .756
4. Fred Akers .731
5. Dana Bible .665

So, Brown has the highest winning percentage of any Texas coach of the modern era. Has had one losing seasons in 15 (not including what may happen this year). Has won two conference titles. Has taken Texas to a bowl game in 14 of 15 seasons. Has won a national title (2005) and played in another (2009). And has continually given Texas a top tier recruiting class annually.

Now, I get that from a Texas fan perspective, recently, things have not been great. But, here's where I start to scratch my head a little:

I keep hearing (reading) Longhorn fans talk about "We're Texas, we demand better", or something similar. Then, I look at their history, and ask "Why? When have you ever had better?".

Brown has been the most successful coach at Texas since some guy named Eugene Van Gent in 1916. Yet, so many Horn fans act like they sit alone atop a mound of national titles.

This brings me to my next observation, if/when Brown is shown the door, what are the chances they get a coach that comes close to doing what Mack has done there? Let's look as a few programs that also claim "exellence" in their past, and have recently made coaching changes:

Tennessee: Not since Phil Fulmer roamed the sidelines has Tennessee had a hint of national success. They're now on their 4th coach (including interim coach Jim Chaney), and things still look pretty rough for them.

Arkansas: With the exception of Bobby Petrino, the Razorbacks have floundered for almost three decades. Petrino may have gone on to be the greatest coach in Arkansas history, but the fact is he didn't. Otherwise, you'd have to go back to the Ken Hatfield and Lou Holtz days to find a winner.

Notre Dame: This one may be the best, and closest example (as it relates to Texas). With one of the nation's most historic programs as a background, the Irish went through 3 coaches before finding one that could get the Irish back to national relevance.


I have no doubt that Longhorn fans are fed up with Mack, and really want a change. I also have no doubt that they feel like they will find a "sure thing" with their next coach. But, if you look at history, it's pretty clear (and extremely clear for us Sooner fans that have been around through the Blake/Smellsofbourbon days), that replacing a coach with so much success is rarely a "sure thing".

This could be the start of something great for Sooner fans!

[Jacie]

What passes for deep thought amongst whorn fans is the best of the best will come running to take the reins of the almighty sa*et program and with their superior resources lead them to several MNC's in a row.

[SoonerorLater]

I think when you get in these kind of discussions one of the first things people point out is the winning %. While winning a high % of your games is good, it's probably not one of the most important reasons why the fan base wants change. Royal took over a dismal UT program and slowly but progressively improved it winning 3 national championships along the way. Lots of SWC championships (I know but they still fill up the trophy case) Even so by the end of his coaching career the Texas fans were ready for change and this is a guy who has a stadium named after him.

Brown took over a program that wasn't real good and won quite a few games but for his only slightly better winning % he has walked away with very few trophy's. Texas Fans just demand more in the way of bragging rights. Winning just 2 conference championships in 16 years just isn't good enough for a coach at a program that has the type of advantages that Brown has at UT.

While there aren't any guarantees when you change coaches you still have try. My thoughts are it's better to risk a colossal fail or even to fail in the pursuit of national championships then cruise along accepting 8-9 win type seasons and little else.

[Collier11]

The reason that Brown will be gone and texas fans want him gone is pretty simple...

1) Been blown out by OU 4 times
2) 6-9 against OU
3) Only 2 conf titles in 16 seasons
4) Fan discontent
5) Consistently underachieves with the best resources in the nation

[okiewaker]

According to recruiting services,,Whorns are always amongst the top of signing the blue chipper types. Mack has prima donna'd himself out of a job, IMHO. He's doesn't have the type of personality to reign in all that talent.

[MyT Oklahoma]

I hate to even think about it but he is on his way out this year. However, I never though tabout it the way you explained above and now that I do, I like it much, much, much better.

[8timechamps]

I think when you get in these kind of discussions one of the first things people point out is the winning %. While winning a high % of your games is good, it's probably not one of the most important reasons why the fan base wants change. Royal took over a dismal UT program and slowly but progressively improved it winning 3 national championships along the way. Lots of SWC championships (I know but they still fill up the trophy case) Even so by the end of his coaching career the Texas fans were ready for change and this is a guy who has a stadium named after him.

Brown took over a program that wasn't real good and won quite a few games but for his only slightly better winning % he has walked away with very few trophy's. Texas Fans just demand more in the way of bragging rights. Winning just 2 conference championships in 16 years just isn't good enough for a coach at a program that has the type of advantages that Brown has at UT.

While there aren't any guarantees when you change coaches you still have try. My thoughts are it's better to risk a colossal fail or even to fail in the pursuit of national championships then cruise along accepting 8-9 win type seasons and little else.

I think that's probably the thought of the Texas collective.

I've never really looked into Texas football history, until today. I knew they had some championships in their past, and I realize it's a huge brand, I just always kinda went with the "we demand better", because maybe I'm brainwashed. In reality, Mack has done more for that program than almost any coach in it's history. And, history tells us, it's not a guarantee the next guy will be able to maintain (or bring back) what the fans want.

True enough, sometimes the risk is worth the reward. And, it's not the first time a coach probably outlived their welcome.

I suppose what I ultimately discovered was that, whoever Texas brings in (and whether Mack leaving, or not is "good" for Texas), the program isn't particularly deserving of the title "excellent". Sure, it's the biggest brand in the game, but that doesn't equate with success on the field.

[8timechamps]

The reason that Brown will be gone and texas fans want him gone is pretty simple...

1) Been blown out by OU 4 times
2) 6-9 against OU
3) Only 2 conf titles in 16 seasons
4) Fan discontent
5) Consistently underachieves with the best resources in the nation

I know that's the bottom line, but it never struck me that Mack has been arguably the best coach in Texas history.

Honestly, I think the blow-outs in Dallas are, by far, the biggest reason he'll be gone. Considering that #3 on your list is a direct effect of #2, which is a direct effect of #1.

[8timechamps]

What passes for deep thought amongst whorn fans is the best of the best will come running to take the reins of the almighty sa*et program and with their superior resources lead them to several MNC's in a row.

That is the (long winded) point I was getting at, I think the Horn fans think it'll all be okay with the next guy. The chances aren't great that will happen. At least not early.

[okiewaker]

IMO,,it would only take a Saban or Spurrier type 2 yrs to restore their program. So, that said, I hope they hire another weak stick.

[8timechamps]

IMO,,it would only take a Saban or Spurrier type 2 yrs to restore their program. So, that said, I hope they hire another weak stick.

True, those guys would be able to do it (and a few others out there), however, the proven guys aren't going to leave (at least I can't think of one that would leave). So, they're in the same situation the teams I mentioned in my initial post, are in...they have to hope they find an up and comer. That's a risky proposition.

My favorite rumor, is that they want to bring in Jon Gruden. We can only hope that's the case...bring in a guy that has been out of coaching for a while, that has never really recruited high school kids, and has no clue about defensive football. That would be a great hire...for Sooner fans.

[Therealsouthsider]

...I couldn't stomach Royal, Akers pissed me off, Mack just makes me laugh

...I'm sure I'll harbor negative feelings for the next one that comes along

ss

[okiewaker]

True, those guys would be able to do it (and a few others out there), however, the proven guys aren't going to leave (at least I can't think of one that would leave). So, they're in the same situation the teams I mentioned in my initial post, are in...they have to hope they find an up and comer. That's a risky proposition.

My favorite rumor, is that they want to bring in Jon Gruden. We can only hope that's the case...bring in a guy that has been out of coaching for a while, that has never really recruited high school kids, and has no clue about defensive football. That would be a great hire...for Sooner fans.

Saban would leave in a minute,,his EGO is larger than Tx. The thought of winning NC at 3 different places would solidify, in his mind, it was ALL him.

[OU_Sooners75]

The reason that Brown will be gone and texas fans want him gone is pretty simple...

1) Been blown out by OU 4 times
2) 6-9 against OU
3) Only 2 conf titles in 16 seasons
4) Fan discontent
5) Consistently underachieves with the best resources in the nation

I know that's the bottom line, but it never struck me that Mack has been arguably the best coach in Texas history.

Honestly, I think the blow-outs in Dallas are, by far, the biggest reason he'll be gone. Considering that #3 on your list is a direct effect of #2, which is a direct effect of #1.

Just cause a coach outs in a better win percentage than another, it doesn't mean he is better than the other.

[OU_Sooners75]

The reason that Brown will be gone and texas fans want him gone is pretty simple...

1) Been blown out by OU 4 times
2) 6-9 against OU
3) Only 2 conf titles in 16 seasons
4) Fan discontent
5) Consistently underachieves with the best resources in the nation

I know that's the bottom line, but it never struck me that Mack has been arguably the best coach in Texas history.

Honestly, I think the blow-outs in Dallas are, by far, the biggest reason he'll be gone. Considering that #3 on your list is a direct effect of #2, which is a direct effect of #1.

Just cause a coach has a better win percentage than another, doesn't mean he is better than the other.

[8timechamps]

Saban would leave in a minute,,his EGO is larger than Tx. The thought of winning NC at 3 different places would solidify, in his mind, it was ALL him.

I know you can't believe everything, but Saban did make the comment that he was "too old to start over again anywhere else". I tend to believe him, but money talks.

[8timechamps]

Just cause a coach has a better win percentage than another, doesn't mean he is better than the other.

I can't think of a case when it doesn't. Ultimately, coaches are paid to win, and there's no better gauge than their winning percentage. I suppose you could hire a "super neat" guy, that makes everyone feel great about themselves, and that coach could only win one or two games a year...but that's not the kind of coach I want.

[okiewaker]

I know you can't believe everything, but Saban did make the comment that he was "too old to start over again anywhere else". I tend to believe him, but money talks.

You probly right, we will see.

[BoulderSooner79]

Saban would leave in a minute,,his EGO is larger than Tx. The thought of winning NC at 3 different places would solidify, in his mind, it was ALL him.

The motivation you state is the only one I can think of that makes sense. But it is a strong one in egocentric people. I'm not saying it rings true for Saban since I don't know what goes on inside his noggin. Given the press he gets, the belief it has been ALL him may be cast in concrete already.

[okiewaker]

The motivation you state is the only one I can think of that makes sense. But it is a strong one in egocentric people. I'm not saying it rings true for Saban since I don't know what goes on inside his noggin. Given the press he gets, the belief it has been ALL him may be cast in concrete already.

Nah,,,you short changing that piece of work.

[Statalyzer]

I think when you get in these kind of discussions one of the first things people point out is the winning %. While winning a high % of your games is good, it's probably not one of the most important reasons why the fan base wants change. Royal took over a dismal UT program and slowly but progressively improved it winning 3 national championships along the way. Lots of SWC championships (I know but they still fill up the trophy case) Even so by the end of his coaching career the Texas fans were ready for change and this is a guy who has a stadium named after him.

Brown took over a program that wasn't real good and won quite a few games but for his only slightly better winning % he has walked away with very few trophy's. Texas Fans just demand more in the way of bragging rights. Winning just 2 conference championships in 16 years just isn't good enough for a coach at a program that has the type of advantages that Brown has at UT

It's simpler that than.
1 - The overly-conservative, scared-to-fail mentality.
2 - You can't lose to your biggest rival by 5 touchdowns on 4 different occasions. This is unprecedented in D1 history for schools that otherwise were at an approximately equal level during that time span.

[picasso]

Switzer has been amazed that Texas has allowed Mack to stay after the amount of arae kickings Stoops has given him.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

texass definitely has the resources, tradition and brand name to expect better than 8 or 9 win seasons and 2 conference titles in 15 years. There's definitely no guarantee that the next guy comes in and wins an NC every five years, but if you have to go through a couple of bad hires like we did in the 90s to finally get that guy it will be worth it.

[jkjsooner]

I think one thing that gets missed by UT folks is that they weren't exactly winning recruiting national titles before Mack Brown came to Texas.

The question is whether these great recruiting classes were a result of Mack Brown or were they a result of the SWC no longer holding Texas back. We may find out soon enough.

The problem with a new Texas coach is that he'll have to compete against an A&M team that plays in a superior conference. Recruiting isn't as easy at Texas as it was 5 years ago.

[picasso]

I don't buy that. I still think Texas wins most battles it has with aTm.

[Scott D]

I know you can't believe everything, but Saban did make the comment that he was "too old to start over again anywhere else". I tend to believe him, but money talks.

Yeah but considering how short Saban can be with the media and the fact that he essentially "runs" Alabama and the fact that outdoing Bear Bryant is a much higher motivation than starting over again at another school can be strong arguments as to why he'd stay at Alabama.

[badger]

Is the football head-to-head with them tied yet?










or do they still need a few more heismans and national championships to catch up :P :mack: Hook em ;)

[Sooners78]

The fact remains that without VY, he'd still be known as Lack Crown. Putting myself in the position of UTerus fans (God forbid, just typing that makes me wanna take a shower), I'd want Ole Yeller to be given his pink slip. He's done less with more than any coach in the 2000's.

[Scott D]

The fact remains that without VY, he'd still be known as Lack Crown. Putting myself in the position of UTerus fans (God forbid, just typing that makes me wanna take a shower), I'd want Ole Yeller to be given his pink slip. He's done less with more than any coach in the 2000's.

He's a prime example of what happens when you miss on the QB position more often than not.

[Soonerjeepman]

I don't buy that. I still think Texas wins most battles it has with aTm.

maybe so...but it won't for long. SEC ugh...

where did the 2 last Heisman's come from? a/m and bu...tcu now in big12, tt doing "well". I don't think the horns have the strangle hold they did for texas kids.

[Temujin]

The reason that Brown will be gone and texas fans want him gone is pretty simple...

1) Been blown out by OU 4 times
2) 6-9 against OU
3) Only 2 conf titles in 16 seasons
4) Fan discontent
5) Consistently underachieves with the best resources in the nation

I don't disagree with any of those, but when have they NOT done #5? They really shouldn't put #5 on Mack, since that's just a staple of UT football.

[birddog]

Yeah but considering how short Saban can be with the media and the fact that he essentially "runs" Alabama and the fact that outdoing Bear Bryant is a much higher motivation than starting over again at another school can be strong arguments as to why he'd stay at Alabama.

that and the fact that bamans won't cost you your sanity like Texans.

[birddog]

albamians?

[picasso]

maybe so...but it won't for long. SEC ugh...

where did the 2 last Heisman's come from? a/m and bu...tcu now in big12, tt doing "well". I don't think the horns have the strangle hold they did for texas kids.

That's in hindsight. Don't assume Texas hasn't gotten the recruits they wanted.

[picasso]

Also, I'm not sure Saban's hair would look right in the South Texas climate.

[Herr Scholz]

8time, I'm trying to follow your logic here. You'd love for Mack to stay forever because Stoops owns him but you caution us UT fans from trying to improve because the next guy might be worse? That about right? Doesn't make much sense.

[badger]

8time, I'm trying to follow your logic here. You'd love for Mack to stay forever because Stoops owns him but you caution us UT fans from trying to improve because the next guy might be worse? That about right? Doesn't make much sense.

I find Texas' continued football mediocrity nonsensical too.

[Herr Scholz]

Nonresponsive.

[Mjcpr]

8time, I'm trying to follow your logic here. You'd love for Mack to stay forever because Stoops owns him but you caution us UT fans from trying to improve because the next guy might be worse? That about right? Doesn't make much sense.

The points are not mutually exclusive. He is cautioning horn to be careful what they wish for, they might get somebody worse than Mack as has been their history. Also, as a Sooner fan, he hopes Mack gets to say, obviously.

[Herr Scholz]

Sounds more like he doesn't want a coaching change at UT rather than UT fans rushing into something foolhardy.

[Temujin]

Sounds more like he doesn't want a coaching change at UT rather than UT fans rushing into something foolhardy.

Did anyone else say, "duh", when they read this?

[Mjcpr]

Sounds more like he doesn't want a coaching change at UT rather than UT fans rushing into something foolhardy.

That is correct, we do not want a coaching change at UT. I hope everyone there understands our position on this.

[Herr Scholz]

Did anyone else say, "duh", when they read this?
Tell it to the OP then. "Mack sucks but don't change because the next guy might suck too..." That was his "logic".

[8timechamps]

8time, I'm trying to follow your logic here. You'd love for Mack to stay forever because Stoops owns him but you caution us UT fans from trying to improve because the next guy might be worse? That about right? Doesn't make much sense.

Pretty much this:


The points are not mutually exclusive. He is cautioning horn to be careful what they wish for, they might get somebody worse than Mack as has been their history. Also, as a Sooner fan, he hopes Mack gets to say, obviously.

Herr, (not that you need reminding) keep in mind this is all coming from a Sooner perspective.

If I remove my Crimson glasses, and look at it from an unbiased standpoint (as much as I can), I see that history shows it's very hard to follow a coach like Brown. So, in that regard, I'm not sure (most) Texas fans realize just what the risk is.

Putting my glasses back on, I hope Mack stays around forever, for obvious reason.

My initial point isn't a simple one, as I'm trying to view things from a Texas perspective. I really do understand the desire to rid yourselves of Mack. I just look around the country, and realize that getting a guy that can even come close to Mack's overall achievements is going to be very hard. It's going to be tough, and I think a fair amount of Texas fans are not ready for what may come next.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that I'm a Sooner fan. Trust me, I am not trying to caution Texas fans for fear they may do something foolhardy. But, that is the reality.

[Herr Scholz]

OK, fair enough. But to me it just sounds like you're nervous that we might make the right hire this time.

[8timechamps]

OK, fair enough. But to me it just sounds like you're nervous that we might make the right hire this time.

Of course I am. The last thing I want is for Texas to hire an excellent coach. But, that's because of my personal bias.

[Mjcpr]

Of course I am. The last thing I want is for Texas to hire an excellent coach. But, that's because of my personal bias.

Word.

[BoulderSooner79]

Horn fans can wish all they want. Regardless, they'll get whatever sh*t sandwich the few in power decide to feed them.

[SoonerPride]

I ain't skeered of texas. not now. not ever.

[Jacie]

I am not afraid of sa*et no matter who is coaching. Seriously, how would Royal have faired had he coached against Stoops? He racked up all of his wins over OU in the first 2/3 of his career, then went 4-2 against Fairbanks and 0-3-1 against Switzer. Until that tie in 76, he was on a 5-game losing streak to the Sooners. I don't know if the mood of the whorn fans had turned against him or if he just quit because he knew it was pastime for him to move on, but 0-5-1 against OU obviously was not sitting pretty in Austin.

[bluedogok]

The points are not mutually exclusive. He is cautioning horn to be careful what they wish for, they might get somebody worse than Mack as has been their history. Also, as a Sooner fan, he hopes Mack gets to say, obviously.
Like when Gary Gibbs was fired for not winning enough and Schnellenberger was brought in....or when Solich was fired for not winning enough and Callenberger was brought in.

[badger]

Odds are, they're not going to get someone better. Remember when USC recruits were impressed with the Lane Kiffin hire? How bout Florida and Muschamp?

College football is not a plug-this-hole-and-continue-winning sport for everyone. Texas couldn't just plug their quarterback hole and continue their Major-Chrissy-Vince-Colt line of not-totally-sucking. Likewise, they cannot simply declare "we have money, we have facilities, we have state of texas recruiting hotbed."

[Temujin]

Tell it to the OP then. "Mack sucks but don't change because the next guy might suck too..." That was his "logic".

No, he was telling you idiots that you should come to grips with the fact that UT is mediocre at best, and that we're happy to hand out beatdowns to the best coach you've ever had.

[Herr Scholz]

Royal was the best we had. 3 national titles is better than 1 to most people. And I guess we shouldn't try to improve our coaching at this point. Great point yet again...

[badger]

I respect that you're over here in enemy territory defending your unranked, two-loss program just a few weeks ahead of our annual Dallas game.

I really think that at the point where your competitors are, it won't matter who your next coach is, or when they're hired. But, who knows till you try. :mack:

[Herr Scholz]

Should definitely be interesting to watch.

[Temujin]

Royal was the best we had. 3 national titles is better than 1 to most people. And I guess we shouldn't try to improve our coaching at this point. Great point yet again...

Actually, it WAS a great point. Unfortunately you're missing the point, repeatedly.

[Herr Scholz]

So Brown is the best coach in UT history? Even though he's only won 1 national title to Royal's 3? Is that your great point? Or is your great point that we shouldn't try to improve? I understand your hatred of UT and wanting to shout down everything I say but you're just looking silly here, son.

[badger]

So Brown is the best coach in UT history? Even though he's only won 1 national title to Royal's 3? Is that your great point? Or is your great point that we shouldn't try to improve? I understand your hatred of UT and wanting to shout down everything I say but you're just looking silly here, son.

I'm sure there's some way we could skew the stat's in Mack's favor... has DKR ever had a 13-win season? Has DKR ever made $5 million annually? Did DKR have 8 consecutive 10-win seasons? Did DKR ever get 100K to show up for a game in Austin? Did DKR ever win the Big 12? Did DKR ever even coach in a BCS Championship game?

Don't even bother correcting me... all in fun dear

[Position Limit]

So Brown is the best coach in UT history? Even though he's only won 1 national title to Royal's 3? Is that your great point? Or is your great point that we shouldn't try to improve? I understand your hatred of UT and wanting to shout down everything I say but you're just looking silly here, son.

Royal's "3" championships are ancient history. texas is not really in the the business of championships anyway. they never have been. But what you do proud yourselves in is high winning percentages awarded for playing scrub schools year after year after year. Do you remember the collective suck off of mack brown because of his 10 win seasons of playing nobody? Isnt texas ranked 3rd in all time wins for a lifetime of beating crappy schools. It's all you guys have. Winning percentage!! So yes, mack brown is your best coach ever. And it's a very small probability that texas will do any better with someone new. it's the whole culture at texas that breeds underachievement and that extends well beyond the university. YOU'RE TEXAS!!!!

[Temujin]

So Brown is the best coach in UT history? Even though he's only won 1 national title to Royal's 3? Is that your great point? Or is your great point that we shouldn't try to improve? I understand your hatred of UT and wanting to shout down everything I say but you're just looking silly here, son.

No, I said that the OP had a great point - that statistically Mack has the highest winning percentage of any UT coach. He also pointed out that UT fans have an unrealistic view of their program, and that (from a UT perspective) firing Mack might not be the best idea. However, at the same time (from an OU perspective), we like having Mack around because Stoops has his number.

I understand your hatred for OU blinds you to rational thought, but you're just looking silly here, son.

[Herr Scholz]

I forgot this site is full of children. Carry on.

And btw, Brown has just as many national titles as Stoops. Let that sink in.

[Jacie]

And yet, we're not calling for Stoops to be replaced. Let that sink in.

[Herr Scholz]

So you're happy with equalling the national success that Mack Brown has enjoyed both in terms of BCS wins as well as national titles? Is that your zinger?

[Temujin]

And yet, we're not calling for Stoops to be replaced. Let that sink in.

I think he's trying to say that Stoops sucks. Or he's saying that he actually is happy with Brown. Whatever, he's clearly confused.

[colleyvillesooner]

I forgot this site is full of children. Carry on.

And btw, Brown has just as many national titles as Stoops. Let that sink in.

No, You're a child...

http://i.qkme.me/3rljm8.jpg

:)

[Herr Scholz]

Try to follow here if you can, temujin. Brown and Stoops are equal in terms of national success (BCS wins (3) and national titles (1)). We want Brown gone and you want him to stay. Yet you're happy with Stoops. Again, please look up the term 'cognitive dissonance'. You're happy with a coach who's equal on the national level to a guy you say sucks but I'm confused?

[Temujin]

Try to follow here if you can, temujin. Brown and Stoops are equal in terms of national success (BCS wins (3) and national titles (1)). We want Brown gone and you want him to stay. Yet you're happy with Stoops. Again, please look up the term 'cognitive dissonance'. You're happy with a coach who's equal on the national level to a guy you say sucks but I'm confused?

That would be a great argument if it weren't for the fact that it completely ignores any form of context.

[Herr Scholz]

Nice tap out.

[badger]

Well Herr, I would agree that Stoops needs to go, except that Mack is making about $5.4 million, while Stoops is making about $4.6 annually.

So you see, Mack must be held to a higher standard than Stoops, about $800K worth. That has to be worth at least one more national title, or at least another BCS bowl victory.

I agree that Heismans, Big 12 titles and minor bowls are worthless, because we have so many of them. Put M&M's in the trophies shaped like bowls, and hang wet towels from the stiff arms of those Heismans. Issued on an annual basis = Bleh.

BCS and national championship game appearances? Two teams go to each one every year, and they'll probably send another couple this year. When they start inviting only one team to each BCS bowl or championship game, THEN it will be worth noting. Sharing is overrated. Next thing you know they'll issue co-championship rings. Bleh.

Stoops is so overrated. He's lucky he doesn't make $800K more.*

























*2008 Big 12 Champions

[Temujin]

Nice tap out.

Nice try using one statistic to make a general argument.

[Herr Scholz]

Look, Stoops has had a lot of success and has owned the Big XII. That's obvious. I just like to poke fun at you guys due to the fact that he has as many national titles as either Mack Brown as well as Gene Chizik, two guys you consider to be blind squirrels. You know the saying. Because I'm a smart aleck like that. ;)

[Temujin]

Look, Stoops has had a lot of success and has owned the Big XII. That's obvious. I just like to poke fun at you guys due to the fact that he has as many national titles as either Mack Brown as well as Gene Chizik, two guys you consider to be blind squirrels. You know the saying. Because I'm a smart aleck like that. ;)

You forgot Les Miles.

[badger]

You forgot Les Miles.

Me next! Me next!

YOU FORGOT LARRY COKER! :P

[Herr Scholz]

So, a logical conclusion to my dig at Stoops' solitary title is the question of whether you Sooner fans will ever call HIM to task if he doesn't win the big one again? I know you're not banking on a national title this season but at what point does Stoops get on the hot seat without another national championship? Or does he ever? Do you view him like Tiger Woods, he's had a long drought but he keeps giving you chances to do it consistently and eventually he'll break through again? Just curious.

[Temujin]

So, a logical conclusion to my dig at Stoops' solitary title is the question of whether you Sooner fans will ever call HIM to task if he doesn't win the big one again? I know you're not banking on a national title this season but at what point does Stoops get on the hot seat without another national championship? Or does he ever? Do you view him like Tiger Woods, he's had a long drought but he keeps giving you chances to do it consistently and eventually he'll break through again? Just curious.

We all want championships, but that can't be the only measure of a good coach. I think that Stoops keeps OU in the conversation in most years, with the occasional down year (2005/2009). Mack used to be the same way, though I think he lost touch with what it takes to keep a program going strong some time ago. The game is very different now than it used to be even 10 years ago when Stoops and Brown were churning out 10+ win seasons and going to BCS games every year.

I think for a time, Stoops also got left behind. Stoops biggest weakness to me used to be his stubbornness to make changes when necessary. IMO, he's done a lot to correct that perception over the last couple of years. Whether that nets any results is still yet to be determined. But it appears he's got a better handle on things than Mack does right now.

In short, the difference between Stoops and Brown right now is that Stoops is still winning games that he should win, and he is still splitting the difference (or better) on the too-close-to-call games. He's still beating Texas annually, he's beat Florida State twice, won the conference, etc. And OU is still in contention for BCS games and national championships on a regular basis. That's a clear distinction in performance, despite the overall NC count. You can't count on NCs, there are just too many good teams to compete with, compared with how it was in the past.

There's another "potential" factor in play as well, with regard to championships. I think that UT and OU are playing "clean" ball these days. I think that both programs take the rules seriously and that it potentially puts both programs at a disadvantage in recruiting (though that doesn't seem to affect UT as much). There's no official data to back up that statement, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to bring it into question, IMO. You know the old saying, "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'".

[Herr Scholz]

That's a very reasonable and well stated post. I agree with that. OU is definitely in the conversation every year. I just wonder when "only" winning conference titles will grow stale with your fanbase.

[Position Limit]

Temujin,

very well written comparison for this numbskull. Yes, Stoops has only won 1 title, but he's competed in 4 total and most of the time is in the mix late into the season. You mention 10 win seasons for mack brown. Those 10 wins are skewed from some of the weakest non conference scheduling ever. mack brown's problem is that his bull**** is finally catching up with him. it's funny how the rest of the college football audience had mack's snake oil figured out from the get but only now texas fans are starting to clue in. they've been duped for about $5 mil a year. they're texas!!!! like i wrote about in a previous post, a new coach aint gonna make a **** of difference because of the culture that has surrounded that program for over 40 years. oh and now they have the donghorn network to deal with. good luck texas.

[Temujin]

That's a very reasonable and well stated post. I agree with that. OU is definitely in the conversation every year. I just wonder when "only" winning conference titles will grow stale with your fanbase.

It already has. But I think people are starting to realize it could be worse...ironically with the assistance of one Mack Brown. Most of us went through the 90s and aren't anxious to go through that again.

Me? I was just happy to see some of the "little" off-season changes this season. Almost every change seemed to directly address a distinct problem we've had the last couple of years - OL and DL physicality, strength/conditioning/nutrition, and special teams. So far it's already seen some small results. It's a nice change.

[cherokeebrewer]

I just wonder when "only" winning conference titles will grow stale with your fanbase.

The thing is, if you aint winnin' the conference, you sure as hell won't be playing for a national title.

[Salt City Sooner]

The thing is, if you aint winnin' the conference, you sure as hell won't be playing for a national title.
Signed,

2011 Alabama.

[cherokeebrewer]

The thing is, if you aint winnin' the conference, you sure as hell won't be playing for a national title.

Actually it could happen, so I take that back...I so sorry.

[BoulderSooner79]

That's a very reasonable and well stated post. I agree with that. OU is definitely in the conversation every year. I just wonder when "only" winning conference titles will grow stale with your fanbase.

It already has to some degree. There have not been any serious "fire Bob" threads over the past few years, but there have been musings that Bob has lost his fire and should consider retiring or moving up to AD. The perception difference between Mack/Bob can be explained by the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately rule. We had a legit top 5 team as recently as '11 that unfortunately had too little depth to endure the critical injuries. UT has to go back to '09 since they fielded an elite team. Also, the depth of the lows are different. If Bob pulled a 5-7 season, he would burn up rope as fast or faster than Mack did. Then there are the recent RRR beatdowns. Even when UT had that 4 of 5 streak, Bob didn't get as much heat as Mack because the games were close except for '05.

Having said that, the fans were definitely restless after last season. It wasn't a terrible year (except the ending), but no one took that "1B" co-champ thing as great shakes. But more than the record, the product on the field looked stale. Bob definitely bought back some fan support by making the staff changes in the off season that many thought were needed for some time now. Even if they don't pan out, it shows he's still driven to excel.

[Scott D]

I'm fine as long as Texas doesn't hire "that high school coach at Baylor".