EPIC Officiating Fail At The End of Wisconsin - Arizona State Game

[Judge Smails]

Wow.

Incredibly stupid play by the Wisconsin quarterback on what would have been a game winning chip shot FG with 18 seconds left.

But what an official did ranks up there with the screwing we took at Oregon.

I'm too tired to go into it now, but it will be all over the web Sunday.

Check it out.

[BoulderSooner79]

Another thing weird about that play was it wasn't at all clear the QB ever downed the ball. It looked like he tried to put a knee down but ran into his own man and didn't touch the ground. Then he just put the ball down, which would have been a fumble and the defender jumped on it. But the refs blew it big-time either way. If the QB failed to down the ball, it should have been ruled a fumble which it wasn't. And if they ruled the play was dead they should have paused the clock to retrieve the ball and marked it ready for play in time for the spike. And they didn't do that either. I totally disagreed with the announcers that it should have been a delay penalty on the defense; they had good reason to believe it was a live ball. But they should paused the clock in that situation.

[aurorasooner]

Wow. What the officials did ranks up there with the screwing we took at Oregon.

It should be all over the web Sunday.

Check it out. Wow. I wonder if these were PAC refs?
It looked like the officials and ESPiN wanted to get the hell out of Dodge. They sort of cut their broadcast crew off to go to spin-center, when I would think most CFB fans wanted an interview with the head ref and possibly the Wisky coach on wth the ruling was, and if it was explained to him (Wisconsin coach).
Epic broadcast fail, imo. Also it looked like T. Graham, the Az. State coach, patted one of the officials on the back while quickly heading out of the stadium.

[BoulderSooner79]

LOL. I guarantee they were not going to get an interview with the refs. Those guys can sure run when they need to. ;)

[aurorasooner]

If the ball was still in play when the Wisky QB touched the ball to the ground w/o actually being down, wouldn't the refs have called it a fumble, with the resulting possession going over to Ariz. State? Perhaps that's what the zebras did, and they called the game over with the change of possession. I don't really know. In any event, the BIG network will probably be all over it tomorrow on their postgame.

[Judge Smails]

Why was the official that spotted the ball telling the Wisconsin team to wait with his hand? The clock went to zero while he was doing that.

I really thought that ref wasn't going to make it out of the stadium without a Wisconsin player taking his head off. And someone probably should have. They cost Wisconsin the game.

I still don't know what the hell the QB was thinking either. This was a massive cluster ****.

There will be much more on this later. I bet this crew or at least that official gets a suspension like our Oregon refs did. Or at least they should.

This just shows you to kick the damned FG when you can and not try to get cute and get it in the middle of the field because something ALWAYS happens.

[BoulderSooner79]

If the ball was still in play when the Wisky QB touched the ball to the ground w/o actually being down, wouldn't the refs have called it a fumble, with the resulting possession going over to Ariz. State? Perhaps that's what the zebras did, and they called the game over with the change of possession. I don't really know. In any event, the BIG network will probably be all over it tomorrow on their postgame.

They didn't rule a fumble - they just kind of stood around for a few seconds looking confused. I do think that weird play by the QB caused some of the confusion. As JudgeSmails said, don't get cute like that, especially when you are out of timesout. Kick the darn FG.

[aurorasooner]

Why was the official that spotted the ball telling the Wisconsin team to wait with his hand?

I really thought that guy wasn't going to make it out of the stadium without a Wisconsin player taking his head off. And someone probably should have. They cost Wisconsin the game.

I still don't know what the hell the QB was thinking either.

There will be much more on this later. I bet this crew or at least that official gets a suspension like our Oregon refs did. Or at least they should. Again everything happened so fast, and I wasn't DVRing it, but if these refs were PAC refs, and they told or motioned the Wisky team to wait, and they then ruled that time had expired, and they didn't call it a fumble by Wisconsin, then I would think there would be more than a crew suspension.
This game could (or should) be called a non-W/L by the PAC officials similar to what they did with OU/Whoregon game. I know that screws Wisky since they were only 2 points down and a chip-shot FG should win it, but what are you going to do?
If Larry Scott had any stones, and these refs were PAC refs & they did motion for Wisky to wait, then the PAC-12 administration (or the NCAA--LMAO) should make Az. State forfeit that game, imho. If these refs were BIG refs, then they should simply just be fired.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Somewhere, Gordon Reise is breathing a sigh of relief...he now has company in the Pantheon of dumb-**** Pac 10/12 officials!

[soonergirlNeugene]

For anyone who missed it, there is already an article up w/ video here: http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/9/15/4731494/arizona-state-wisconsin-2013-final-score

[Judge Smails]

They were Pac 12 refs. Big ****ing surprise.

[Judge Smails]

Holy crap. Is that THE play? If so, he did kneel down.

This was an even BIGGER officiating cluster fukk than what we got in the Oregon-ized Crime game.

Heads should roll for this.

Arizona State should man up and forfeit the game. But they won't.

The official(s) should apologize. But they won't.

I don't even give a crap about Wisconsin, but I'm pissed.




For anyone who missed it, there is already an article up w/ video here: http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/9/15/4731494/arizona-state-wisconsin-2013-final-score

[aurorasooner]

They were Pac 12 refs. Big ****ing surprise. Geez. I wonder if that Calif ex-Sheriff who was Belotti's high-school buddy, is still in-charge of PAC's officiating? I think his name is something like Cutia.
Since they're in Phoenix, those refs must be enjoying a nice dinner and bonus (bone-us) all provided for by Waste-Management.

[Sooner in the Bluegrass]

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

I think everyone knew how it was all supposed to play out-- Wisconsin would run a quick play to get the ball more or less between the hash marks, the refs would set the ball, Wisconsin would spike it and then the FG attempt would follow to end the game.

But then the Wisconsin QB did that . . . thing. That thing that was definitely not according to script. Instead of shuffling off to the right and then taking a knee, he just kind of put the ball on the ground where (I'm assuming) he expected it to be spotted, and expected everyone to just know what he meant. I don't even know what that was. I don't think the officiating crew knew, either. I mean, technically, that was a fumble, right? Like the recent rash of guys dropping the ball before they cross the goal line.

I agree that the officials really made the wrong call, but I'm not sure what the right one would be or how any official would be able to properly interpret what just happened in the amount of time available. I'm pretty sure they know they screwed up, but I don't think there was any premeditation or bias involved in that call.

If it had been reviewable and they still made the wrong call-- a la that criminally bad call in Eugene in '06--well then, yeah.

[soonergirlNeugene]

Except he did take a knee - as the picture clearly shows. While it was harder to catch from ESPN's camera angle, anyone standing on the field should have been able to tell. The crazy part is that ASU wasn't flagged for delay of game by piling up on the football and preventing the officials from setting up the next play. The defensive delay of game penalty exists for this precise scenario....but derpy Pac 12 refs ftw?

[aurorasooner]

CFB final just showed the play, and it didn't look like the Wisky QB took a knee and just placed the ball on the ground, and the ball was put down with about 8-9 secs left, then an Az. State did player fall on it. It looked like to me the ball should've still been a live ball since it wasn't spiked or the Wisky QB didn't take a knee but just placed it down.
However, the refs did allow Wisconsin to line up in their offense and ref over the ball did motion them to wait with the clock continuing to click down.
Just a another major officiating cluser(*&^ by the refs.
It will be interesting on Monday to hear the PAC and BIG's official comments on this event on Monday.

Except he did take a knee - as the picture clearly shows. While it was harder to catch from ESPN's camera angle, anyone standing on the field should have been able to tell. I'm sure he probably did, as I wouldn't think any CFB QB would just place the ball down w/o downing it, but stranger things have happened in the excitement at the end of close CFB games.
I think what's ridiculous is the network carrying that game was rushing to get to it's worthless sport's recap show, and didn't take the time to explain to it's viewers wth the final official ruling was. It was like they were on overtime on their Sat feed uplink time and were paying through nose by the minute.

[soonergirlNeugene]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BULy_aiCQAAkXVB.jpg:large

[Statalyzer]

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

Oh, it's definitely just incompetence. Grossly unacceptable, egregious incompetence to be sure.


But then the Wisconsin QB did that . . . thing. That thing that was definitely not according to script. Instead of shuffling off to the right and then taking a knee, he just kind of put the ball on the ground where (I'm assuming) he expected it to be spotted, and expected everyone to just know what he meant. I don't even know what that was. I don't think the officiating crew knew, either. I mean, technically, that was a fumble, right? Like the recent rash of guys dropping the ball before they cross the goal line.

If it was a fumble, the refs would have ruled fumble, ASU ball. Then the clock stops, replay would say no the QB was down, and they get another play. But they ruled that he downed it - except they didn't rule that, they basically by silence indirectly ruled that the ball sat around for 10 seconds and ASU fell on it but Wisconsin still got to keep the ball.

Delay of game wouldn't be the right call either since the refs didn't blow the whistle so ASU had the right to fall on it. In fact the rulebook ought to (maybe it does) have something to cover a situation where the defense naturally falls on it thinking it's a fumble but the ref rules it's not, because that will still unfairly delay the offense but the D shouldn't get penalty yards either.


I agree that the officials really made the wrong call, but I'm not sure what the right one would be or how any official would be able to properly interpret what just happened in the amount of time available.

If you can't figure how to handle that quickly and decisively you shouldn't be reffing. Even an immediate wrong call that was still a)done right away and b)was at least one possible interpretation of what happened, would have been understandable. But they basically jacked around staring into space and then ruled nothing at all and just said magic redo with 15 fewer seconds left.

The refs have to be on top of things. It reminded of the "fair catch" by TCU, where not only was the call wrong, but the officials all seemed puzzled as to how to make the call (right or wrong) in the first place; no flag, no whistle, just let the play go and he scores a TD and then they get together and say just kidding it was a fair catch all along.

Between this game, the several awful mistakes in that TCU-Tech utter face, and the rash of "oh that looked rough, I'll throw the guy out" followed by "on review we'll let him keep playing but he still gets a bogus 15 yard flag" that peppered multiple games, this has been one totally ****ty week of college football officiating.

[King Crimson]

not nearly as bad as the screwing at UO for us...that was outright wrong. allen patrick had the ball, and they gave the ball to UO when they didn't have the ball.

this is partly a screw up by Wiscy QB. he needs to control the game and situation. refs didn't know what he was doing....and balked.

it was bad...but QB needs to own the situation.

but yeah, pac officials err on the side of pac team on pac field...hooray?

[Widescreen]

I don't understand what Wisky was doing there. No timeouts and you do a running play which leaves the clock running? Stupid with a capital S. Yes the refs screwed up but they should never have run that dumb play.

[S.PadreIsl.Sooner]

not nearly as bad as the screwing at UO for us...that was outright wrong. allen patrick had the ball, and they gave the ball to UO when they didn't have the ball.

this is partly a screw up by Wiscy QB. he needs to control the game and situation. refs didn't know what he was doing....and balked.

it was bad...but QB needs to own the situation.

but yeah, pac officials err on the side of pac team on pac field...hooray?

Agreed. The UO debacle was the worst screwup in modern football history! Because they had a chance to fix it, and the conspiracy took over!

[fadada1]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BULy_aiCQAAkXVB.jpg:large

That camera lies!!:wink:

This picture, for Wisky folks, will be like the OU/ducks pic with ref digging through the pile while our guy is holding the ball up. I won't post the picture because is still elevates my blood pressure.

[BoulderSooner79]

Except he did take a knee - as the picture clearly shows. While it was harder to catch from ESPN's camera angle, anyone standing on the field should have been able to tell. The crazy part is that ASU wasn't flagged for delay of game by piling up on the football and preventing the officials from setting up the next play. The defensive delay of game penalty exists for this precise scenario....but derpy Pac 12 refs ftw?

I disagree as ASU players had a legitimate reason to believe it was a fumble. A delay of game would be appropriate if they were holding the ball carrier or other players down in order to run clock. But the refs should stall the clock in that situation until they get the players untangled so they get retrieve the ball and get it spotted. You see that situation all the time where the refs wave their arms over their heads as a signal to the clock operator and then give the wind-up with their arms to restart the clock. These refs didn't have control of the game.

[BoulderSooner79]

That camera lies!!:wink:

This picture, for Wisky folks, will be like the OU/ducks pic with ref digging through the pile while our guy is holding the ball up. I won't post the picture because is still elevates my blood pressure.

Even this picture is not conclusive. You can't tell for sure there is not space between his knee and the ground - you can see the shape of his entire knee (none hidden in grass). The moving video would be better. Remember, all he did was a quick, moving kneel (attempt) and then popped right back up in one motion. I'm sure many defenders didn't even see it. Then he places the ball on the ground and leaves it there which all the defenders saw. I'm not saying the refs didn't screw up - they did. But that Wisky QB should have made this routine for the refs and made it clear he was down - and stayed down until the whistle. And he should not have tried to spot the ball for the refs.

[MyT Oklahoma]

They had a decent angle to kick a field goal before they ran that play. WTF was Wisconsin thinking? They didn't have any time outs and they tried to get cute and it bit them in the a$$.

That it all happened on a PAC 12 field with PAC 12 refs is what makes it classic.

[MyT Oklahoma]

Wow. I wonder if these were PAC refs?
It looked like the officials and ESPiN wanted to get the hell out of Dodge. They sort of cut their broadcast crew off to go to spin-center, when I would think most CFB fans wanted an interview with the head ref and possibly the Wisky coach on wth the ruling was, and if it was explained to him (Wisconsin coach).
Epic broadcast fail, imo. Also it looked like T. Graham, the Az. State coach, patted one of the officials on the back while quickly heading out of the stadium.

Yes they hightailed it here through Cimarron within minutes of the game ending, and were last seen heading towards Garden City down Hyw 50-400 as fast as they could go without any highlights. You really had to see it to believe it.

[okiewaker]

The QB clearly kneeled with ball. You'd a thunk the refs woulda huddled and figured it out, put a couple ticks back on the clock.

[Eielson]

I don't understand what Wisky was doing there. No timeouts and you do a running play which leaves the clock running? Stupid with a capital S. Yes the refs screwed up but they should never have run that dumb play.

This. I think the main issue with Wisconsin was that they thought they had a TO. The QB clearly tried to call one, and then made no attempt to get back to the LOS to spike it (which would be the logical plan if you wanted to center it with no TO). Even if ASU hadn't hopped on the ball, I doubt the QB would have ever wandered back up to the line to snap it in time.

In no way was this even close to what happened in Eugene.

[C&CDean]

Am I the only one who doesn't GAS about what happens to ASU or Wisconsin?

[badger]

That camera lies!!:wink:
.
Pathological liar.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n630/Joseph_Robidoux_III/AllenPatrickOklahomavOregon2006.jpg

[cvsooner]

QB should've spiked it. Then no question and stops the clock.

[bluedogok]

The QB should have got his team lined up to snap the ball instead of arguing with the ref about the stoppage. He spent the time looking at the ref while the clock was rolling instead of getting ready to kill the clock. His lack of focus to getting the team lined up contributed to the confusion. If the team lined up immediately the umpire may have set the play quicker and they may have called a delay of game on ASU since the delay would have been much more clear to the officials.

...but the officials blew it as well.

[SoonerDood]

Todd Graham got out-stupided. ASU deserved to lose that game for their horrific clock management on the previous drive.

[BoulderSooner79]

The QB should have got his team lined up to snap the ball instead of arguing with the ref about the stoppage. He spent the time looking at the ref while the clock was rolling instead of getting ready to kill the clock. His lack of focus to getting the team lined up contributed to the confusion. If the team lined up immediately the umpire may have set the play quicker and they may have called a delay of game on ASU since the delay would have been much more clear to the officials.

...but the officials blew it as well.

Agree with all of this. Wisky had a hand in their own demise. This is nothing like the UO screw job where the only thing OU did wrong was recover an on-side kick. Grrrh.

...but the official blew it as well.

[fadada1]

Pathological liar.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n630/Joseph_Robidoux_III/AllenPatrickOklahomavOregon2006.jpg

the only explanation i have for the complete stupidity of that ref is that this picture was actually posted over on fark central. GOT to be photoshopped... only reasonable conclusion.

[dennis580]

This just shows you to kick the damned FG when you can and not try to get cute and get it in the middle of the field because something ALWAYS happens.

I totally DISAGREE. Centering the ball is not being cute. It gives you a better chance at making the FG. 18 seconds is plenty of time to center the ball, and take a knee, and then spike the ball. If Stoops is ever in the same situation I hope he does excately what the Wisconsin coach did. Because that gives you the best chance to win the game.

[BoulderSooner79]

I totally DISAGREE. Centering the ball is not being cute. It gives you a better chance at making the FG. 18 seconds is plenty of time to center the ball, and take a knee, and then spike the ball. If Stoops is ever in the same situation I hope he does excately what the Wisconsin coach did. Because that gives you the best chance to win the game.

It may not be cute, but it does have risks as this example points out. The team better know the rules and execute crisply - I think they failed on both accounts. Something not mentioned by the announcers nor on this thread is that there is a new rule this season that says the ball must be snapped 3 seconds before the game clock expires in order to legally spike the ball to kill the clock. Wisky was still milling around with 3 seconds to go and not lined up over the ball ready for play. They really had 15 seconds, not 18 and I don't think they knew that.

[aj44mc]

I was at the game and it was a crazy ending. The one thing that i don't get is why didn't the wisco field goal unit even stop on the field.

[BoulderSooner79]

I was at the game and it was a crazy ending. The one thing that i don't get is why didn't the wisco field goal unit even stop on the field.

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

[okiewaker]

I was at the game and it was a crazy ending. The one thing that i don't get is why didn't the wisco field goal unit even stop on the field.

I understand the question. B/C the clock ticked zero.

[C&CDean]

I was at the game and it was a crazy ending. The one thing that i don't get is why didn't the wisco field goal unit even stop on the field.

I would rather watch Douglass and Millwood in the Soul Bowl than watch ASU play Wisconsin. And I don't do soul.

[cleller]

Maybe it was a dumb way to do it, but how could an NCAA official not recognize what was going on?

[Peeb]

not nearly as bad as the screwing at UO for us...that was outright wrong. allen patrick had the ball, and they gave the ball to UO when they didn't have the ball.

this is partly a screw up by Wiscy QB. he needs to control the game and situation. refs didn't know what he was doing....and balked.

it was bad...but QB needs to own the situation.

but yeah, pac officials err on the side of pac team on pac field...hooray?The Oregon game in 2006 was beyond bad.

Worst. Jobbing. Ever.

Seriously, this latest embarrassment cant' hold a candle to the 2006 debacle.

[aurorasooner]

How in the frick does a coach expect to keep his players off social media, when you can't even keep your wife from spouting off?
#karma

— Jen Bielema (@jenbielema) September 15, 2013 from the press
According to an article by CBS Sports, the Wisconsin Badgers went to Bill Carollo, the Big Ten’s supervisor of officials, to ask about the bizarre final fifteen seconds. As was obvious to anyone with eyes not blinded by bias — or blinded by, like, disease or accident — Carollo confirmed that the officials botched the end of the game. At the very least the officials should have reviewed the play, but instead they allowed Wisconsin coach Gary Anderson to go back to the locker room without providing him a clear explanation of what occurred.


From Arizona Sports The scene was chaotic to say the least, but ultimately the responsibility lies with the officiating crew. I fully expect a statement from the office of Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott Monday or Tuesday saying that the crew, headed by Folliard, botched the play. It's the last thing the conference needs from an officiating standpoint, in light of the scandal at last year's Pac-12 Basketball Tournament, but that's what should happen.

So it's a victory for Arizona State -- a win that should propel the Sun Devils into the Top 25 heading into their conference opener at Stanford next Saturday.

For Wisconsin, it's a bitter pill to swallow. The Badgers feel like they should have left Tempe with a one-point win, or at the very least, the opportunity to attempt the field goal.

Instead, they got jobbed.

Sun Devil coach Todd Graham saw Stave's quick kneel down and is far from convinced that the Wisconsin quarterback should have been ruled down.

"The quarterback put the ball on the ground while he was still standing up, so that should have been a turnover," Graham said.

Jaxon Hood and Anthony Jones saw exactly what Graham saw and pounced on the football within moments of realizing Stave put the ball on the ground. In all likelihood, a referee blew his whistle when Stave's knee approached the ground. But the whistle was far from definitive and Arizona State's players were smart to react.

"He hadn't been tackled, so that should have been a turnover," Graham said. "That should have ended the game." Todd Graham believed the Badgers should never have had the opportunity to get set because his players jumped on a loose football.

"He (Stave) ran over to spot the ball and we never tackled him," Graham said. "He put the ball on the ground. I mean it's a fumble, make sense?"


What explanation, if any, did you get from the officiating crew after that last play?

Gary Andersen: "None. Absolutely zero. We snapped the ball with 18 seconds on the clock. We took a knee and we didn't get a chance to snap the ball again because they laid on it. You execute it. You work at it. I've got no explanation whatsoever." A defensive player is going to do that. I just didn't realize they were allowed to.

Gary Andersen: "They can't do that. It's against the rules. You can't do that. You can't stop play. That rule went out a long time ago. You can't lay on the football. Especially when the ball was sat down on the ground, the official is told to come up and get it and the kid falls on it."

[dennis580]

there is a new rule this season that says the ball must be snapped 3 seconds before the game clock expires in order to legally spike the ball to kill the clock. Wisky was still milling around with 3 seconds to go and not lined up over the ball ready for play. They really had 15 seconds, not 18 and I don't think they knew that.

Actually that is NOT correct. Its 3 seconds form the refs signal that the ball is ready for play not 3 seconds from the snap.

[TrophyCollector]

Weird no doubt, but after watching the video - screw Wisconsin because WTF was their QB doing??? Nobody downs the ball like that! Is he from freakin Canada or a rugby player from the UK?

[aj44mc]

Weird no doubt, but after watching the video - screw Wisconsin because WTF was their QB doing??? Nobody downs the ball like that! Is he from freakin Canada or a rugby player from the UK?

The entire stadium erupted because we all thought it was a live ball.

On a side note, I saw a lot of sooner fans rocking ASU gear. A lot more than I would have expected, so I guess I am not alone.

[Salt City Sooner]

He hadn't been tackled, so that should have been a turnover," Graham said. "That should have ended the game." Todd Graham believed the Badgers should never have had the opportunity to get set because his players jumped on a loose football.

"He (Stave) ran over to spot the ball and we never tackled him," Graham said. "He put the ball on the ground. I mean it's a fumble, make sense?"
Well, yeah, except for that whole he took a knee, stood back up & THEN put the ball on the ground thing, it makes perfect sense, Todd. But then, what else should we expect to come from a snake's mouth such as yourself except for flat out, B.S. lies?

[BoulderSooner79]

Well, yeah, except for that whole he took a knee, stood back up & THEN put the ball on the ground thing, it makes perfect sense, Todd. But then, what else should we expect to come from a snake's mouth such as yourself except for flat out, B.S. lies?

I've watched the replay several times and it is still not clear to me he actually touched the ground with his knee. He clearly tried to and was bumped by his own guy at the same time and popped right up on his other foot. The still photo in this thread doesn't prove it either, but a video from that view should be conclusive. Regardless, it is very easy to see why the ASU guys thought it was a fumble since they were locked up with blockers when the very quick kneel supposedly happened. The refs looked confused after that and took a while to rule the play dead. That QB could have made it very easy on the refs by sliding all the way to the ground and then handing the ball to the ref (not trying to spot it). It would have been a very routine spike play at that point with a margin of safety on the clock. The refs did a poor job, but not an epic fail.

[Statalyzer]

Easily an epic fail by the refs because they had NO CLUE how to handle the situation and they were the cause the players not knowing what was going on.

Also it's not like Graham just came from a long NFL career, so why does he think players have to be "tackled" to be down?


Regardless, it is very easy to see why the ASU guys thought it was a fumble since they were locked up with blockers when the very quick kneel supposedly happened.

Agree - it's the officials' job to make that clear, and every single one of them cocked it up. There are procedures in place to handle situations where the clock should keep running but an ambiguous situation results in some player thinking the play ended differently than others, but this crew didn't even seem to realize that.


Wisky was still milling around with 3 seconds to go and not lined up over the ball ready for play.

That is because the refs didn't call anything or signal anything or really have a clue in heck as to what was going on; watching the replay the first time I thought the refs had called Arizona State ball for a while, and probably a bunch of the offense thought so too for a while, so then when the ref explains nothing and just sets the ball back, they didn't really know what was going on. Refs blew it, not by making a "bad call", but by not making any sort of decisive call at all.


ASU players had a legitimate reason to believe it was a fumble. A delay of game would be appropriate if they were holding the ball carrier or other players down in order to run clock. But the refs should stall the clock in that situation until they get the players untangled so they get retrieve the ball and get it spotted. You see that situation all the time where the refs wave their arms over their heads as a signal to the clock operator and then give the wind-up with their arms to restart the clock. These refs didn't have control of the game.

Exactly.

[ashley]

It is clear to me that he never touched the ground and it was fumble.

[Peeb]

It is clear to me that he never touched the ground and it was fumble.

I've seen a still photo that clearly says the opposite, but the refs blew the whistle making it a dead ball before ASU could touch it regardless.

At that point, the only logical thing to do after the defense mistakenly fell on the dead ball was to either call an official's time-out just long enough to get the ball extracted, or flag the defense for stopping play. Motioning to the offense to NOT come to the line of scrimmage for another play was odd, if that is what I'm actually seeing on the video. Looks like it to me.

[BoulderSooner79]

I've seen a still photo that clearly says the opposite, but the refs blew the whistle making it a dead ball before ASU could touch it regardless.

At that point, the only logical thing to do after the defense mistakenly fell on the dead ball was to either call an official's time-out just long enough to get the ball extracted, or flag the defense for stopping play. Motioning to the offense to NOT come to the line of scrimmage for another play was odd, if that is what I'm actually seeing on the video. Looks like it to me.

May be clear to you, but not to everyone. I don't think the still shot proves it, but a video from that angle might have (I haven't found one). Defenders are always going to jump on the ball if there is any doubt and they won't hurry to give it up until the ref makes it very clear the play is over. They've been taught that since pee-wee ball. I agree the officials should have paused the clock after they decided the play was dead, but the odd handling by the QB caused confusion and delay. The play started with the clock stopped, so Wisky had the full 40 seconds to call 2 plays and make sure everyone was on the same page to execute crisply and make the refs job routine - some of the fault is their own.

[PrideMom]

I blame the Wisconsin coaches. They should have kicked the field goal, instead of sending the QB back out there with 18 seconds to go. The QB didn't know the difference between spiking the ball, and laying the ball down which would be the same as a fumble if he did not touch his knee at the same time.

I wonder is Wisconsin wants back their band director, too. Everything they do is STUPID!

[jkjsooner]

The officials definitely messed up. What I don't understand is what the Wisconsin players were doing after the play. With the clock running they were just standing around. You'd think the QB would have been trying to get the official to set the ball but instead he was sort of wandering around randomly.

It shouldn't take the offense to be in a hurry up mode to signal to the official to spot the ball quickly but had the offense signaled their intentions (before 3 seconds left) I think the official would have gotten the hint.

[DrZaius]

The QB clearly kneeled with ball. You'd a thunk the refs woulda huddled and figured it out, put a couple ticks back on the clock.

Kneeling does not stop the clock. Only an incomplete pass ie spike the ball. kneeling is the same as a running play, does not stop the clock at all, except if they gain a first down. Though a lot of peeps around here want it to be a ref issue mostly due to OUr epic ****ing at Oregon they simply got this right. That qb should be bitched slapped for not knowing the rules.

[jkjsooner]

Kneeling does not stop the clock. Only an incomplete pass ie spike the ball. kneeling is the same as a running play, does not stop the clock at all, except if they gain a first down. Though a lot of peeps around here want it to be a ref issue mostly due to OUr epic ****ing at Oregon they simply got this right. That qb should be bitched slapped for not knowing the rules.

Nobody is questioning whether the clock stops after a kneel down. Everyone knows the clock keeps running.

The intent was to center followed up by a QB spike.

What they're questioning is why it took 15 seconds for the officials to spot the ball. Wisconsin definitely seemed confused but the officials should have known what was going on.

The refs didn't have control of the game. Either they did not make it clear that the play was dead after the kneel down or they did make it clear and ASU should have been charged with a delay of game penalty. Even at that point the officials still did not hurry to set the ball.

[badger]

I just visited a UW board and they're comparing this to Green Bay/Seattle botched ref call that ended the replacement ref crap.

Hopefully Wisconsin is taking one for the rest of the country (aaaaagain) and this will lead to the Pac 12 ending the stupid nobody-else-does-it policy of not having the visiting team in a major matchup bring refs to their away game. Big Ten should have supplied the refs to the @ Arizona State game, just like we should have brought Big 12 refs to UCLA/Oregon/Washington. They keep this crap up, nobody (us included, since we haven't gone out there since Seattle) will schedule them for an away game at a Pac 12 site.

[BoulderSooner79]

Kneeling does not stop the clock. Only an incomplete pass ie spike the ball. kneeling is the same as a running play, does not stop the clock at all, except if they gain a first down. Though a lot of peeps around here want it to be a ref issue mostly due to OUr epic ****ing at Oregon they simply got this right. That qb should be bitched slapped for not knowing the rules.

I don't think anyone is saying kneeling will stop the clock. But with the defense jumping on the ball thinking it was a fumble, the refs will often pause the clock in order to retrieve the ball and untangle the players and then restart the clock. But there is no rule (that I know of) that says they have to do that. If the QB hands the ball to the ref instead of setting it on the ground, the situation never happens.

[jkjsooner]

I just visited a UW board and they're comparing this to Green Bay/Seattle botched ref call that ended the replacement ref crap.

Hopefully Wisconsin is taking one for the rest of the country (aaaaagain) and this will lead to the Pac 12 ending the stupid nobody-else-does-it policy of not having the visiting team in a major matchup bring refs to their away game. Big Ten should have supplied the refs to the @ Arizona State game, just like we should have brought Big 12 refs to UCLA/Oregon/Washington. They keep this crap up, nobody (us included, since we haven't gone out there since Seattle) will schedule them for an away game at a Pac 12 site.

Teams just need to stop playing the PAC-12. They'll get the hint.

[badger]

Teams just need to stop playing the PAC-12. They'll get the hint.

It's really too bad, because Washington was a very fun road trip (technically, we flew). Their fans were out there supporting a team that would end up going 0-12 in Tyrone's last season, but they were as enthusiastic as ever during their beatdown :)

Oregon (didn't go) and UCLA (pep band trip) treated us like crap and I don't care if we ever visit them again.

[aurorasooner]

Larry Scott tells ASU/Wisky refs "no soup for you" What a crock. It's no wonder that the players circumvent the rules by signing autographs for a lot of money, never go to class, and the coaches and alumni offer recruits money, sex, and other inducements, when the presidents of the universities and the administrators of the conferences lawyer up with carefully prepared statements and don't sack up and make the hard but correct call.
You guys are right. The only way to stop this is for schools to not play the PAC schools unless they agree to resend that ridiculous rule they've got about not allowing refs from the visiting team's conference to officiate when they play in PAC-12 territory.
Walnut Creek, Calif. -- Pac-12 Commissioner Larry Scott has reprimanded and taken additional sanctions against officials in Saturday night's Wisconsin at Arizona State game for failing to properly administer the end of game situation and act with appropriate urgency on the game's final play, it was announced today.

With 18 seconds remaining in the game, Wisconsin's quarterback ran the ball toward the center of the field, touched his knee to the ground and then placed the ball on the ground. There was initial uncertainty over whether the quarterback had taken a knee, given himself up or fumbled the ball. As a result several Arizona State players considered the ball live and a fumble, and attempted to recover the ball.

Neither the referee nor anyone on his crew moved with appropriate urgency to clearly communicate that the ball was to be spotted so play could resume promptly.

"This was an unusual situation to end the game," said Pac-12 Commissioner Larry Scott.[b] “After a thorough review, we have determined that the officials fell short of the high standard in which Pac-12 games should be managed.--LMAO We will continue to work with all our officials to ensure this type of situation never occurs again."

[OkieThunderLion]

I've watched the replay several times and it is still not clear to me he actually touched the ground with his knee. He clearly tried to and was bumped by his own guy at the same time and popped right up on his other foot. The still photo in this thread doesn't prove it either, but a video from that view should be conclusive. Regardless, it is very easy to see why the ASU guys thought it was a fumble since they were locked up with blockers when the very quick kneel supposedly happened. The refs looked confused after that and took a while to rule the play dead. That QB could have made it very easy on the refs by sliding all the way to the ground and then handing the ball to the ref (not trying to spot it). It would have been a very routine spike play at that point with a margin of safety on the clock. The refs did a poor job, but not an epic fail.

Without a shadow of a doubt the QB kneeled.

A) The officials ruled he did.
B) Photo evidence says he did.
C) His actions. He knew exactly what he was doing. And tried to spot the ball for the officials to save time. In hindsight it was the wrong move because it confused (did it?) some of the defensive players.

[OkieThunderLion]

D) The Pac 12 commissioner said he did and the crew screwed the game up.

[BoulderSooner79]

Without a shadow of a doubt the QB kneeled.

A) The officials ruled he did.
B) Photo evidence says he did.
C) His actions. He knew exactly what he was doing. And tried to spot the ball for the officials to save time. In hindsight it was the wrong move because it confused (did it?) some of the defensive players.

All I said was that it wasn't clear to me, my meaning being that there is reason to doubt. It was very clear to me that defenders did not see the kneel because they were locked up with blockers at the time and it is not a surprise they jumped on the ball when he set it down. And a player cannot spot the ball; a ref will never leave it there and accept that. Yes, he knew exactly what he was doing and it was not ideal. It's the refs that need to know exactly what he is doing. He caused the confusion, but I'm not saying that excuses the refs - they should have done a better job. What he should have done:

1) run to the spot he wanted
2) slide to ground - all the way and stay for the whistle
3) hand the ball to the ref. so he can spot it.

If he did that, no defender can jump on him or the ball. If they do, they would get a delay of game. The ref would know exactly what he was doing and he would have had a full 10 seconds left on the clock and he could have waved to his girlfriend in the stands to drain the extra time. Make the refs job routine.

[jkjsooner]

Without a shadow of a doubt the QB kneeled.


And his knee doesn't have to touch the ground. (It appears it did.) Even a simulated kneel down is enough to stop the play according to the rules.

Given the QB bumping into the offensive linemen made it look less like a kneel down / simulated kneel down.

[PrideMom]

Why are the officials taking the blame for the Wisconsin loss? Wisconsin had no more time outs, and the last play was not an incomplete pass, and even if the QB had his knee down that DOES NOT stop the clock. Time management is very important. Hard lesson to learn......

Last year in the OU/OSU game, if our coaches had not already had the next play called if the pass play did not work, OU would never have gone into overtime to win.

I will say it again, the Wisconsin coaches loss the game...

[OkieThunderLion]

And his knee doesn't have to touch the ground. (It appears it did.) Even a simulated kneel down is enough to stop the play according to the rules.

Given the QB bumping into the offensive linemen made it look less like a kneel down / simulated kneel down.

Correct.

100% refs fault.

[OkieThunderLion]

Why are the officials taking the blame for the Wisconsin loss? Wisconsin had no more time outs, and the last play was not an incomplete pass, and even if the QB had his knee down that DOES NOT stop the clock. Time management is very important. Hard lesson to learn......

Last year in the OU/OSU game, if our coaches had not already had the next play called if the pass play did not work, OU would never have gone into overtime to win.

I will say it again, the Wisconsin coaches loss the game...

Because they still had another down to use to spike the ball. That is what they why they were waiting for the refs to spot the ball. :)

[jkjsooner]

Why are the officials taking the blame for the Wisconsin loss? Wisconsin had no more time outs, and the last play was not an incomplete pass, and even if the QB had his knee down that DOES NOT stop the clock. Time management is very important. Hard lesson to learn......

Last year in the OU/OSU game, if our coaches had not already had the next play called if the pass play did not work, OU would never have gone into overtime to win.

I will say it again, the Wisconsin coaches loss the game...

This has been explained over and over in this thread. The QB took a knee to get the ball in the middle of the field. (A spike would return the ball to the hashes.) There were 17 seconds left which is plenty of time to run another play and spike the ball with time left on the clock had the officials handled the situation appropriately.

Wisconsin didn't help themselves by their odd behavior (seeming to be confused themselves and/or not in a hurry) but the fact is that doesn't excuse the official's mistake.


This reminds me of this game. See 1:05:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNpdLyOyZyI


We had the clock stopped and the ball on the hashes with 25 seconds left. We ran a play towards the middle of the field but the running back cut to the outside and was tackled close to the hashes. We had to rush the play and RD Lasher's kick barely missed.

Now that was a coaching f'up. Lewis had one job and that was to get the ball in the middle of the field. I blame Gibbs for this loss. (Also because we dominated Texas that day just like on almost all of the OU/TX games under Gibbs.)

[BoulderSooner79]

Correct.

100% refs fault.

Agree to disagree. Neither the QB nor the refs did anything "wrong", but they both fell short on execution. So I would divide the fault between them (I won't give any Blevinisms here on percentages). As jksooner said, the refs did not have appropriate control of the game. The QB's odd execution collaborated with that to form the resulting disaster. The refs did the correct procedure too slowly. The QB made something obvious into something deceptive. The game clock was merciless.

But to compare the errors made here to the magnitude of what happened to OU in Oregon as some folks have is ludicrous. Those refs got fired while these refs got publicly critisized by the commissioner. Seems appropriate to me.

[jkjsooner]

Agree to disagree. Neither the QB nor the refs did anything "wrong", but they both fell short on execution.

Players not executing is part of the game. Officials not executing is not. (Note I'm not talking about missing a judgement call but a flat out error in execution.)

It drives me nuts when people say that official's mistakes are part of the game implying that it's the same as a player's mistake (QB throwing interception, etc.) In a perfect world if we had robots calling games with 100% accuracy the game would benefit. We obviously don't want robots who never throw interceptions playing the game. We're there to see players not officials.

[BoulderSooner79]

Players not executing is part of the game. Officials not executing is not. (Note I'm not talking about missing a judgement call but a flat out error in execution.)

It drives me nuts when people say that official's mistakes are part of the game implying that it's the same as a player's mistake (QB throwing interception, etc.) In a perfect world if we had robots calling games with 100% accuracy the game would benefit. We obviously don't want robots who never throw interceptions playing the game. We're there to see players not officials.

Officials execution is part of the game, regardless of whether you want it to be. There is no rule that I know of that says the ref has to have the ball spotted and ready for play within X seconds. Every crew is going to be different and it doesn't just impact the end game - it has cumulative effect on teams that run hurry-up for example. I agree it would be great if refs were replaced by machines that execute perfectly - it'll probably happen. I don't interpret the "part of the game" phrase as being a goal. More of a pragmatic recognition of reality. But players and coaches have a role in this too in the way they interact with officials. I'll bet anything Wisky is practicing some aspects of that this week.

[jkjsooner]

I don't interpret the "part of the game" phrase as being a goal. More of a pragmatic recognition of reality.

I can agree with this. That phrase is not always presented in that way though.



But players and coaches have a role in this too in the way they interact with officials. I'll bet anything Wisky is practicing some aspects of that this week.

Yes, I can't figure out exactly what Wisconsin was doing. Forget the Flash like kneel down (seriously how did he do that so quickly) or the laying of the ball on the ground, after the play ended nobody on the Wisconsin side seemed to have a sense of urgency until it was too late. Maybe they just assumed the official stopped the clock once ASU jumped on the ball. I don't know.

[OkieThunderLion]

Agree to disagree. Neither the QB nor the refs did anything "wrong", but they both fell short on execution. So I would divide the fault between them (I won't give any Blevinisms here on percentages). As jksooner said, the refs did not have appropriate control of the game. The QB's odd execution collaborated with that to form the resulting disaster. The refs did the correct procedure too slowly. The QB made something obvious into something deceptive. The game clock was merciless.

But to compare the errors made here to the magnitude of what happened to OU in Oregon as some folks have is ludicrous. Those refs got fired while these refs got publicly critisized by the commissioner. Seems appropriate to me.

Yes, the refs did. Hence the public reprimanding by their boss.

[OkieThunderLion]

Agree to disagree. Neither the QB nor the refs did anything "wrong", but they both fell short on execution. So I would divide the fault between them (I won't give any Blevinisms here on percentages). As jksooner said, the refs did not have appropriate control of the game. The QB's odd execution collaborated with that to form the resulting disaster. The refs did the correct procedure too slowly. The QB made something obvious into something deceptive. The game clock was merciless.

But to compare the errors made here to the magnitude of what happened to OU in Oregon as some folks have is ludicrous. Those refs got fired while these refs got publicly critisized by the commissioner. Seems appropriate to me.
It was executed properly/legally, even if you wish to categorize it as odd.

[BoulderSooner79]

It was executed properly/legally, even if you wish to categorize it as odd.

I don't wish anything. I don't care about ASU/Wisky/big10/pac12/etc. I've seen that play run dozens of times, but never the way that Wisky QB did it. And never with those results. I'm sure every coach in the country is making sure their QBs don't repeat this.

[BoulderSooner79]

It was executed properly/legally, even if you wish to categorize it as odd.

I said explicitly the QB did nothing wrong. I just said his execution had an impact on how the game played out. I.e. he had some level of control of the situation that he failed to use it to his advantage. I doubt his coach is telling him he did fine and the football gods were just angry that day.

[BoulderSooner79]

A quote from the Wisky QB. This is exactly the aspect of his execution that I thought was poor. And *NO*, I am not excusing the refs!


Stave told reporters that he is certain he downed the football, but he admitted one mistake: “I’ve just got to make sure I’m not spotting (the ball) myself,” he said. “I’ve got to hang onto the ball so only me and the ref are touching it.”

[ashley]

And his knee doesn't have to touch the ground. (It appears it did.) Even a simulated kneel down is enough to stop the play according to the rules.

Given the QB bumping into the offensive linemen made it look less like a kneel down / simulated kneel down.

I coached for 40 years and I thought the QB had to touch his knee down. WOW.

[aurorasooner]

I coached for 40 years and I thought the QB had to touch his knee down. WOW. I also thought you had to end the play (player down, spike etc). However the ref(s) obviously blew the whistle as evidenced by the ref standing over the ball and supposedly getting ready for the next play, hence the play in question is dead, end of story.
I believe the question is not so much, was the Wisky QB down, he was by the stoppage of play by the refs, no matter whether he touched his knee down or not, but should the refs have stopped the clock for a "delay of game" by the ASU D falling on the ball after the play was dead, which I believe they should've.
PAC refs f'ed up and screwed Wisky.
Should the game be called a non W/L by the PAC commissioner? I believe it should. Either way I don't really GAS, but after the Whoregon screw job, the PAC refs certainly have a rep for screwing their OOC opponents, and the only way for the PAC to repair this reputation is to resend their ridiculous rule of not allowing the visiting teams conference refs to officiate in PAC territory (which is common practice among the other CFB conferences). If this would've happened with BIG refs instead of PAC refs, then the PAC could say --- sorry, "it's your own refs that screwed up, deal with it" (same with OU/Whoregon).

[jkjsooner]

I coached for 40 years and I thought the QB had to touch his knee down. WOW.

I think it's a safety/deception issue. Guys have attempted to fake a kneel down and continue the play.

Given, at least in the NFL you can fake a QB spike. The QB needs to tell the official ahead of time otherwise he'll likely blow the play dead. I would think that has the same concerns as a simulated kneel down...

BTW, if you notice a lot of times guys will take a knee in the endzone without their knee actually touching. Once they start with that motion the officials will blow the play dead. I wasn't sure if that was a unique rule in the endzone but apparently it isn't.

[jkjsooner]

Several people have mentioned the 3 second rule. I didn't realize that Wisconsin was involved in a controversial play previously.


The 2012 Rose Bowl ended when then-Wisconsin quarterback Russell Wilson, with his team trailing by seven points, took a snap with two seconds left and spiked the ball at Oregon’s 25-yard line as time expired. As of this season, teams will no longer be trying to outmaneuver a bird’s-eye official.