OSU Sports Illustrated Article Part 2 - The Academics

[Judge Smails]

Shortly after Les Miles took over as Oklahoma State's football coach in December 2000, he introduced an exhortation that he would use often at the end of team meetings during his four years in Stillwater. "Academics first," Miles would say. "Football second."

Miles's words encapsulated one of the central pillars in the mythos of major-college football: that nothing, not even wins and losses, takes precedence over educating young athletes. The reality is that when jobs and money are at stake, priorities quickly skew.

Shortly after Les Miles took over as Oklahoma State's football coach in December 2000, he introduced an exhortation that he would use often at the end of team meetings during his four years in Stillwater. "Academics first," Miles would say. "Football second."

Miles's words encapsulated one of the central pillars in the mythos of major-college football: that nothing, not even wins and losses, takes precedence over educating young athletes. The reality is that when jobs and money are at stake, priorities quickly skew.

As Miles said, "Academics first," he would hold up two fingers. And as he said, "Football second," he would hold up one.

"You heard his words but you saw what he was doing," says Doug Bond, a Cowboys offensive lineman from 2002 to '04. "So the thought process was that you're going to school just so you can play football."

Given the coach's message to his players, it is not surprising that 13 Cowboys who played between 2000 and '11 told SI that they participated in some form of academic misconduct, and 16 others were named by teammates as also having had schoolwork done for them. Players said that they routinely had their coursework completed by tutors or university staff members, that they were provided with answers to exams before taking them, and that they received passing grades despite doing little or no work. Players also allege that the academic counselor for football scheduled them in classes with exceptionally lax professors and pigeonholed them into majors without consulting them. "The philosophy, the main focus [of the program], was to keep [the best players] eligible through any means necessary," says Fath' Carter, a safety from 2000 to '03. "The goal was not to educate but to get them the passing grades they needed to keep playing. That's the only thing it was about."

That philosophy took root after Miles was named Cowboys coach before the 2001 season and continued under Mike Gundy, who was the offensive coordinator under Miles and replaced him after the '04 season, players and former staff members say; less and less emphasis was placed on academics, and the school began admitting more recruits who weren't as qualified academically. "Were the players who came in after Miles [arrived] lesser students? Yes," says Carter. "So things had to be put in place to help them."

Terry Henley, an academic adviser for football since 2000, denies the players' allegations that he scheduled them in easy classes and steered them to majors, but concedes that academics weren't a priority for Miles. "There was never pressure [to cheat], but Miles was like most coaches who want to be somewhere else," said Henley. "They're going to do what they need to do for two or three years, and they're not going to have to deal with whatever the fallout is. So, no, he didn't promote academics."

More > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130911/oklahoma-state-part-2-academics/?sct=hp_t1t_a1&eref=sihp#all

[cleller]

Well that installment was disappointing to me. Not much at all. It was also the area where the NCAA could really hammer OSU.

My daughter worked in the OU tutoring program in the stadium offices from 2006-2009. She worked at what they called the "writing center", which would be open for athletes (all sports) to come in and get help on papers, grammar, structure, have proofreading done, etc. There were always certain players that stood out, that she could tell were working hard, had their heads on straight, and others that were pretty full of themselves.

What she did always back up was that no one did the work for them (the athletes), and that the administrators of the program were on top of everything, all the time. Much oversight. No sleazy stuff going on.

The guys I remember her applauding were Travis Lewis and Mosis Madu. Sam Bradford brought her a paper once. Said he was as polite and nice as reported.

[badger]

As Miles said, "Academics first," he would hold up two fingers. And as he said, "Football second," he would hold up one.

Yup, that's a :les:-ism if there ever is one

[badger]

Also, since we're all Sooner fans (most of us) and don't remember who the hell half of these guys are, a handy resource. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/OSU_Investigation_Cast_of_Characters/20130911_93_B5_ULNSbA370105)

As you can see, a lot eventually transferred or were dismissed from OSU.

[Boomer.....]

Coxeff recalls a 2003 team meeting in which Miles asked one of the Cowboys to write house on a chalkboard. "He spelled it H-A-S," says Coxeff. "I was like, Oh, my God, how is he even in this room? ... How can someone who can't spell come to a major college?"

Heh

[CowboyMRW]

Heh

While this does make me laugh quite a bit, the guy can't even name the player?

[CowboyMRW]

Also, since we're all Sooner fans (most of us) and don't remember who the hell half of these guys are, a handy resource. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/OSU_Investigation_Cast_of_Characters/20130911_93_B5_ULNSbA370105)

As you can see, a lot eventually transferred or were dismissed from OSU.

Hell, I'm going to need that guide. I barely know any of these players that are being interviewed.

[Boomer.....]

While this does make me laugh quite a bit, the guy can't even name the player?

True. They name a lot of names, but the ones admitting things are bad seeds. So far no real credible evidence.

[David Earl]

I agree that part of this sounds fishy and the whistle blowers seem to involve at least some malcontents.

However, the notion these are just guys who were Miles' players mad because Gundy booted them from the team doesn't seem to work. They are saying a lot of things very condemning of Les Miles. If they were his guys just mad at Gundy, why would they implicate Miles?

Speaking of... why not investigate what Miles is doing at LSU right now? Not a one-week joke investigation like they recently did at A&M, but a real, extensive search...

[badger]

Hell, I'm going to need that guide. I barely know any of these players that are being interviewed.

Yeah, knowing that these guys were marginal and exited unceremoniously doesn't lend credibility to who they chose to talk to.

But be an honest Poke here --- Les Miles was then and continues to be a scumbag through and through, right?

[PrideMom]

Contented people do not blow the whistle. You don't upset the applecart if you are happy. And those are the people that need to be really looked at. OSU was never anything for 100 years (except in wrestling, baseball, and golf), and all of a sudden they are in the national headlines? As one of Pat Jones famous sayings: "It doesn't pass the "Smell Test"."

[cherokeebrewer]

Everybody knows this type of academic fraud goes on everywhere and if the ensuing parts to this article contain something dirty going on at poke state, well...that goes on everywhere also.

[REDREX]

Today's article shows nothing-----Schools push players into easy classes what a shock

[CowboyMRW]

Yeah, knowing that these guys were marginal and exited unceremoniously doesn't lend credibility to who they chose to talk to.

But be an honest Poke here --- Les Miles was then and continues to be a scumbag through and through, right?

Les left in 2004 which I was only a freshman in high school at the time. I don't know what all went on with the program when he was here. I do know the way he left OSU, left a bitter taste in my mouth. I know he makes me laugh at some of the crazy stuff he does in LSU, but I don't really know if I would call him a scumbag.

[EatLeadCommie]

Today's article shows nothing-----Schools push players into easy classes what a shock

Yeah that part isn't a big deal. The tutors and grades thing is, but that is tough to prove and difficult for schools to enforce as well.

[CowboyMRW]

The Bell/Coxeff thing should be easy to prove. Coxeff says he got A's while Bell says he got a C and a D. That's the easiest thing to see how credible Part 2 is.

[SoonerStormchaser]

The funny comments below the article are nothing but OSU shills trying to spin and do damage control. This is pure entertainment folks...

[badger]

It seems like some of the players interviewed were caught off-guard, hmmm...

Link (www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/post.aspx/SI_wants_to_show_how_sausage_is_made_Ex_OSU_QB_tel ls/11-22190)


He wrote in the article that Aso Pogi said ‘it’s a big deal because I’m the starting quarterback.’ He was actually referencing the fact that he quoted off (allegations) and I was sitting there going ‘man, that’s crazy.’ And then he would name off the times that these things were going on and the people that were involved.

And I’m sitting there going ‘whoa, that is really crazy.’ The words that I actually said went into the reference of ‘that (allegation is) a big deal because I’m the starting quarterback.’ That’s how it really came back. I wasn’t saying ‘I was the starting quarterback and that’s a big deal.’ I was saying I was unaware of anything like that during my time at OSU.... I can only be accountable for me and what I saw and what happened. But I didn’t see anything.

The guy was approached at his Lawton church after a bible study. To Thayer's credit, he identified himself as an SI reporter beforehand, so the guy should have known immediately that they're going to quote him on the record and all unless stated otherwise.

[JiminyChristmas]

Apparently not ALL schools cheat academically since Tulsa just recently had their best DB ruled academically ineligible for the entire year by the NCAA.

With that said, all you have to do is listen to interviews with certain players and it is obvious there is NO way they could pass college level courses. There is no doubt that there are high level athletes all across the country being pushed through their classes that in reality have no business being in college at all. But, since they can't go directly into the NFL from high school and there is no farm system, college football is the only place they can go. We all know that the term "student athlete" is laughable for many of these guys and the downside is that it takes spots away from kids who may not be as talented, but who do things right and would be true "student athletes".

I'm certainly not saying that because it is common practice that it is right, I just don't think this part of the SI article had anything groundbreaking to share.

[Boomer.....]

So do they have video or audio recordings that they are going to release?

[badger]

So do they have video or audio recordings that they are going to release?

One video is with the article here on them addressing academics. (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130911/oklahoma-state-part-2-academics/?sct=hp_t11_a2&eref=sihp)


Here's a few discussing payments (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/video/?eref=sinav)

Here's a "behind the investigation" video (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/video/?eref=sinav)

[Boomer.....]

I'm talking about the other, more legitimate former players who are now refuting it. Not the few crackheads.

[badger]

I'm talking about the other, more legitimate former players who are now refuting it. Not the few crackheads.

I'd imagine those guys are now making the media rounds (other media from SI) refuting it. If you listen to WWLS or ESPN radio long enough, you'll probably catch one of them.

[cherokeebrewer]

I'm just posting this for edification & clarification



Sports Illustrated senior writer George Dohrmann, who wrote every word of the partially released investigative piece into the Oklahoma State football program, joined Doug Gottlieb’s radio show this afternoon to answer questions regarding some of the immediate backlash. It was an interesting interview by Gottlieb, who asked some pressing and necessary questions. And Dohrmann, who won a pulitzer prize for his investigative book about AAU basketball titled “Play Their Hearts Out”, stood firm in his reporting/writing. Here’s the transcript:

DG: What percentage of the work did Thayer Evans do in the report?
Dohrmann: Substantial. Absolutely. And what I did was substantial. I wrote the story, every word of the story was written by myself, but Thayer certainly did a substantial amount of the reporting. He’s located in Texas, where a lot of these players we were tracking down were, so that was certainly beneficial to us. We both talked to untold numbers of people, players. But yeah, substantial. I wrote it, but Thayer was a big part of it.
DG: How credible do you think the sources are?
Dohrmann: Very credible, or we wouldn’t write these things. These are players who spoke to us on the record, who we found. They didn’t come to us, they didn’t come and say, ‘Oh, I got a story to tell.’ We had to track them down and go to them and then hear their stories. This wasn’t something where, I think there’s a perception that, a lot of people who talk about their school is bitter because they got kicked off the team or they didn’t start. But you played the game, a lot of guys aren’t bitter at all, sometimes they are just years removed from this experience and you go and see them and they have time on their hands and you show them attention and you’re curious about their experience and they share it with you. Sometimes it’s not a guy sitting their spewing venom about a school he once attended.
DG: Were any of the players compensated for their interviews?
Dohrmann: Oh God no. No. Sports Illustrated doesn’t do that. ESPN doesn’t do that. CBS doesn’t do that.
DG: Seymore Shaw, the running back, said he got $500 when he committed to Oklahoma State out of high school. He actually went to OU and they didn’t have a partial scholarship. Is that a misrepresentation, an oversight, I’m just trying to figure out how that came to be?
Dohrmann: Well, he went to OU, he didn’t qualify and then he had to choose another school. And so, when he chose Oklahoma State, he received this money.
DG: Fath’ Carter said he would get $100 handshakes on ‘The Walk’ from the student union to the stadium before games. That feels really brazen. Sounds hard to believe.
Dohrmann: You know, I understand. Fath’ is a somebody who played four years at Oklahoma State, has two degrees from Oklahoma State, spoke on the record, recorded. I have no reason to believe he lied about that. And he’s certainly not disgruntled. He still talks to people at Oklahoma State.
DG: Aso Pogi told (Sports Talk Network’s The Rush): “That was nothing I said. It was misrepresented, misquoted. It was taken completely out of context.” For Aso to come out now, and the other guys who have said they’ve been misquoted, how would you respond?
Dohrmann: All those people who say they’ve been misquoted, their conversations were recorded. I’ve heard them, editors here have heard them, lawyers here have heard them. We are absolutely comfortable that they were quoted accurately.
DG: What type of punishment (NCAA-wise) do you think Oklahoma State will face from this investigation?
Dohrmann: I think it’s pretty hard to do that. I think a lot of that is based on what the school is able to prove, what the NCAA is able to prove. I really don’t ever consider that when I’m writing these articles, you know, ‘Oh my goodness, what will the NCAA (do)?’ Will the NCAA interview all of the players we did? They won’t. Will the players talk to the NCAA? A lot of them won’t want to. Now that’s a great question that I don’t think anyone can answer. It’d be totally guessing at a really early point. It really just depends on how aggressive the school is in trying to track these players down and really getting at the truth. And then the NCAA, their undermanned enforcement staff, are they really going to have the resources. It took us 10 months. Are they really going to have the resources to go after this like that? I don’t know. It’s really hard to say.
DG: What can we expect from the other four articles?
Dohrmann: Tomorrow you’re gonna learn that there was widespread academic misconduct at the school. Players had work done for them, professors handing them grades that they didn’t deserve, some questionable counseling, things like that. Then you’re going find out that there was a real drug problem on the team. In that and of itself is not really different from college life, but what’s really intriguing to me is how the school responded to that drug use. There was some really questionable things that they did, in terms of the counselor that they employed that will raise into question how serious the school is about drug use and treating drug use. And on Friday, you’ll learn in general how the school treats women, the mistreatment of women and how it ran its hostess program.
DG: What is your take on the response you have seen from Oklahoma State?
Dohrmann: When we met with Mike Holder and a bunch of the staff there, their general counsel and compliance folks. The narrative they put there after hearing our allegations, was this sounds like a Les Miles story. And they sort of came up with this idea that this stuff only stretched until 2007 and I don’t know where they came up with that. I think that they’re not wrong in that this culture that we say exists at Oklahoma State started with Les Miles. So if they’re looking for the time frame when this began, then it was the Les Miles era. Do I think that Mike Gundy took over and suddenly cleaned up the program? Our evidence suggests that if he did do that, he was very slow to get it cleaned up. Maybe that’s the case, maybe it takes a while to purge that sort of stuff from your program. But we have allegations that run to 2010, 2011, depends on what story we’re talking about. That’s not that long ago. At the very least, in the last few years, Oklahoma State has what I would say is an oversight problem in regards to a lot of these issues.
DG: What’s the smoking gun from the stories that are going to come out?
Dohrmann: For me personally, I’d say pay close attention to how they counseled kids with drug problems. And I know that’s not ****y because people want to say money or something like that, but to me that was a really shocking and disheartening bit that we learned about the program that they didn’t really take that seriously. And I think there were some kids who they could have really helped that, because of the system they have in place, help was not really available to them. I know that that’s not, again, that’s not something that’s ****y and not something that most people are going to pick up and make a big deal about. But for me, I spoke to their drug counselor, I looked at their drug policy, the way they ran that to me, I don’t make a big deal out of drug use, but I will make a big deal out of how they reacted to drug use in our story. So that’s something I hope readers would pay attention to and be really shocked.

[rock on sooner]

OSU sure didn't do the young men and women any favors...a lifetime
of damage...no wonder many of them are talking...just to clear their
consciences....

[OU_Sooners75]

I'm talking about the other, more legitimate former players who are now refuting it. Not the few crackheads.

So you better known players are more trustworthy?

Is this what you are leading to?

[Boomer.....]

So you better known players are more trustworthy?

Is this what you are leading to?

No, I'm not saying that they are more trustworthy. I want to see/hear the interviews because they are disputing what was recorded. If the recorded conversations were the same as the story, then it really looks bad for the players and university. The dropout, druggies are the only one coming forward saying these things on video and it's hard to believe them 100%. I'm not saying that it's not all true though.

[cleller]

I was reading the teasers on the SI site for the upcoming stories, and those sound even more boring.
About the Orange Pride:
"a small number of women in the group had sex with recruits."

Not terribly exciting. Same thing could happen with the astronomy club. Well, maybe.

[olevetonahill]

Ima kick back and wait till its all out there then look for the Cliffs Notes version.

[8timechamps]

George Dorhmann, the lead writer for this piece was on the radio with OSU's own Doug Gottlieb today, and here are some of the comment I found interesting: (FYI, I just noticed CherokeeSooner posted the entire interview above, I'll still leave this here because these are the few things I hear the Poke fans talking about the most).



DG: How credible do you think the sources are?
Dohrmann: Very credible, or we wouldn’t write these things. These are players who spoke to us on the record, who we found. They didn’t come to us, they didn’t come and say, ‘Oh, I got a story to tell.’ We had to track them down and go to them and then hear their stories. This wasn’t something where, I think there’s a perception that, a lot of people who talk about their school is bitter because they got kicked off the team or they didn’t start. But you played the game, a lot of guys aren’t bitter at all, sometimes they are just years removed from this experience and you go and see them and they have time on their hands and you show them attention and you’re curious about their experience and they share it with you. Sometimes it’s not a guy sitting their spewing venom about a school he once attended.





DG: Were any of the players compensated for their interviews?

Dohrmann: Oh God no. No. Sports Illustrated doesn’t do that. ESPN doesn’t do that. CBS doesn’t do that.





DG: Fath’ Carter said he would get $100 handshakes on ‘The Walk’ from the student union to the stadium before games. That feels really brazen. Sounds hard to believe.
Dohrmann: You know, I understand. Fath’ is a somebody who played four years at Oklahoma State, has two degrees from Oklahoma State, spoke on the record, recorded. I have no reason to believe he lied about that. And he’s certainly not disgruntled. He still talks to people at Oklahoma State.





DG: Aso Pogi told (Sports Talk Network’s The Rush): “That was nothing I said. It was misrepresented, misquoted. It was taken completely out of context.” For Aso to come out now, and the other guys who have said they’ve been misquoted, how would you respond?
Dohrmann: All those people who say they’ve been misquoted, their conversations were recorded. I’ve heard them, editors here have heard them, lawyers here have heard them. We are absolutely comfortable that they were quoted accurately.

[cvsooner]

Like anybody who's being accused is going to admit it right off the bat? The amazing thing to me is the sheer number of those making allegations, how well their stories corroborate each other (so far), and if even half of the allegations are accurate, this is pretty bad for OSewe and college football. This is a business--a BIG business--and all kinds of shenanigans occur. Tell me again about how honorable Chesapeake Energy is? Or even T. Boone Pickens is?

[aurorasooner]

One thing I don't understand is current students and athletes (such as JFF at a$m) taking "on-line" classes. To me this is bunch of BS, and just an easy way for athletes to cheat the educational system. On-line CE classes for degree graduates is different, but for current students, imo, it's a crock and absolutely shouldn't be allowed.

[8timechamps]

One thing I don't understand is current students and athletes (such as JFF at a$m) taking "on-line" classes. To me this is bunch of BS, and just an easy way for athletes to cheat the educational system. On-line CE classes for degree graduates is different, but for current students, imo, it's a crock and absolutely shouldn't be allowed.

I agree. While I have no problem with the credibility of online courses, I have an issue with student-athletes being able to take them. There's just too much room for fraud. At least in the classroom setting, there is physical evidence (attendance, etc).

However, online courses are here to stay, so I'm not sure that the NCAA can (or will) do anything about it.

[OkieThunderLion]

I'm talking about the other, more legitimate former players who are now refuting it. Not the few crackheads.

Fath' Carter is about as "legitimate" as they come. 4 year player with a degree from the school.

These clowns are guilty as sin. Of course the big stars will always deny. You think Bradford or Peterson would ever rat out OU on anything? They are in the "fraternity". And of course the character of the other guys will be attacked. Just like Jose Canseco's was.

[OkieThunderLion]

Breakdown of the characters involved...

http://www.ocolly.com/sports/football/article_27b39c1e-1a98-11e3-b671-001a4bcf6878.html

[Boomer.....]

Great read from a former walk-on:

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-state-tales-from-a-les-miles-walkon/article/3881699

[cherokeebrewer]

Great read from a former walk-on:

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-state-tales-from-a-les-miles-walkon/article/3881699

There's definitely a good dose of reality in that article...