Question about NCAA investigation into the pokies....

[SoonerKnight]

Someone posted that it is a 4 yeaar statue of limitations on violations. Now, the first part of the story has just come out but it seems to be a pattern of violations for over a decade. The last known violation going to '11. With the supposedly most recent violations going back to '11 could the previous violations not be held against them as it shows a pattern of willful violation of NCAA regulations?

Just curious. Also, is anyone suprised that a program that has been in the dumps for so long and became successful so quick would be dirty? I was suprised that they talked to over 60 former players that have corraberated the story so far.

[cherokeebrewer]

I'll post this one last time.

Allegations generally are based on violations that have occurred four or fewer years before the time an institution is notified of an investigation or an institution notifies the enforcement staff of violations. However, the enforcement staff may allege violations that have occurred beyond the four-year period if they involve (1) the eligibility of a current student-athlete, (2) a pattern of willful violations that began before the four-year window but continue into the four-year window or (3) a blatant disregard for certain fundamental rules (recruiting, extra benefits, academics, ethical conduct) or (4) an effort to conceal violations.

[olevetonahill]

Not sure who posted it But the rules said sompun about they could go as far back as they need to on some stuff. Dig around in one of these threads and you will dind it.

[olevetonahill]

I'll post this one last time.

Allegations generally are based on violations that have occurred four or fewer years before the time an institution is notified of an investigation or an institution notifies the enforcement staff of violations. However, the enforcement staff may allege violations that have occurred beyond the four-year period if they involve (1) the eligibility of a current student-athlete, (2) a pattern of willful violations that began before the four-year window but continue into the four-year window or (3) a blatant disregard for certain fundamental rules (recruiting, extra benefits, academics, ethical conduct) or (4) an effort to conceal violations.

Knew some one posted it. good Jorb

[badger]

If there is a pattern, the NCAA can go beyond the statute of limitations.

I fully do not expect anything except self-imposed sanctions on anyone's part. OSU will likely agree to probation, maybe a scholarship reduction or two, and to establish and oversight committee/group/etc independent of the university to monitor player employment etc etc.

At this point, the accusations are about what OU was guilty of with the Bomar/Quinn fiasco of 2005. We kicked the guilty parties off the team (won't happen with OSU as they're already gone), we dissociated with those who provided the no-work all-pay jobs (maybe with OSU), and suddenly, our stadium was filled with posters on what a "extra benefit" is, reminding alumni/boosters/fans to ask before giving birthday presents (NO!), free haircuts (NO!) or flights back home (NO!).


Also, is anyone suprised that a program that has been in the dumps for so long and became successful so quick would be dirty?

OSU was regularly getting recruiting gems that no other major programs wanted, which is how lousy programs get better - solid recruiting of underrated talent. Their mediocrity also worked to their advantage in some aspects (lower academic standards to accept athletes that may not qualify at the AAU member schools in Big 12 --- Nebrasky, Kansas, Texas, A&M, etc).

So, while I had definitely heard things, there was the possibility that facility upgrades and going after reject recruits with giants chips on shoulders was working for them. Brandon Weeden for example --- third string old fart that was just at school on a New York Yankees baseball scholarship comes into a game after the other guys get injured and works his way up to being a first round NFL pick.

But yeah, there's not going to be a death penalty a la SMU, there's not going to be millions in payouts a la Penn State, there's not even going to be a first half suspension of the starting quarterback. The most you'll get is what OU got in 2005... at this point.

[SoonerKnight]

Thanks for the clarification. As for looking around for it. Yeah. Ok. So, how bad we going to run on tulsa? LOL

[jkjsooner]

The most you'll get is what OU got in 2005... at this point.

If the allegations are true the punishment should be much more severe. The reason OU got off pretty easily is that nobody in the school administration knew of the work arrangement, we reported it, and we cooperated fully with the investigation.

If these allegations are true, this ties directly with the OSU administration and coaches. Huge difference!

[8timechamps]

Seeing how DeForest was on the job up until 2011, I think it's safe to assume the NCAA will be able to go back as far as they want to investigate, and if necessary, punish OSU.

[8timechamps]

If the allegations are true the punishment should be much more severe. The reason OU got off pretty easily is that nobody in the school administration knew of the work arrangement, we reported it, and we cooperated fully with the investigation.

If these allegations are true, this ties directly with the OSU administration and coaches. Huge difference!

Yeah, this (at the very least), if true, will look more like USC's punishment. Or, OSU could self-administer a punishment (like Miami did), and hope the NCAA sees it as enough.

[swardboy]

If the allegations are true the punishment should be much more severe. The reason OU got off pretty easily is that nobody in the school administration knew of the work arrangement, we reported it, and we cooperated fully with the investigation.

If these allegations are true, this ties directly with the OSU administration and coaches. Huge difference!

Kind of reeks of a lack of institutional control doesn't it? Or an institution out of control.

[SoonerKnight]

If there is a pattern, the NCAA can go beyond the statute of limitations.

I fully do not expect anything except self-imposed sanctions on anyone's part. OSU will likely agree to probation, maybe a scholarship reduction or two, and to establish and oversight committee/group/etc independent of the university to monitor player employment etc etc.

At this point, the accusations are about what OU was guilty of with the Bomar/Quinn fiasco of 2005. We kicked the guilty parties off the team (won't happen with OSU as they're already gone), we dissociated with those who provided the no-work all-pay jobs (maybe with OSU), and suddenly, our stadium was filled with posters on what a "extra benefit" is, reminding alumni/boosters/fans to ask before giving birthday presents (NO!), free haircuts (NO!) or flights back home (NO!).



OSU was regularly getting recruiting gems that no other major programs wanted, which is how lousy programs get better - solid recruiting of underrated talent. Their mediocrity also worked to their advantage in some aspects (lower academic standards to accept athletes that may not qualify at the AAU member schools in Big 12 --- Nebrasky, Kansas, Texas, A&M, etc).

So, while I had definitely heard things, there was the possibility that facility upgrades and going after reject recruits with giants chips on shoulders was working for them. Brandon Weeden for example --- third string old fart that was just at school on a New York Yankees baseball scholarship comes into a game after the other guys get injured and works his way up to being a first round NFL pick.

But yeah, there's not going to be a death penalty a la SMU, there's not going to be millions in payouts a la Penn State, there's not even going to be a first half suspension of the starting quarterback. The most you'll get is what OU got in 2005... at this point.

I tend to think that since this went on for 10 years at least that word spread that you get pay for play and other perks. Academic reasons aside hell they were allegedly doing the school work for them. It just seems that we lost some recruits to them we never would have before and the fact that there were some that discussed (over this last summer) the fact that we have lost in state talent to OSU recently as a matter of fact.

Question is did Gundy know this was going on with his assistant coach? If that Coach gets hammered do the implicate him?

I am not sure about Gundy seems that he plays it straight but I did read an article on him a couple years ago that made him out to be a real arrogant SOB. I imagine that all coaches at that level are to an extent. I just wonder how much OSU knew or did not know.

It is true that until the story is completly released we will not know but I would imagine this is gonna blow up on OSU by years end.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Yeah, this (at the very least), if true, will look more like USC's punishment. Or, OSU could self-administer a punishment (like Miami did), and hope the NCAA sees it as enough.

The amount of stuff they allegedly did, nothing less than a self-imposed death penalty will do...

[stoopified]

NCAA Hammer Time

[oudanny]

I've always believed that where there is smoke there is fire but unless some proof exists to confirm the allegations then there will be no sanctions.

[OU_Sooners75]

SoonerKnight,

To sum up lawyer talk that was given in this thread, the NCAA has a "Willful Violators Clause" which was mentioned above.

If they find anything that the school decided to willfully conceal, they will investigate and punish.

[OU_Sooners75]

Yeah, this (at the very least), if true, will look more like USC's punishment. Or, OSU could self-administer a punishment (like Miami did), and hope the NCAA sees it as enough.

The amount of stuff they allegedly did, nothing less than a self-imposed death penalty will do...

Get off the death penalty dude. Seriously.

The NCAA won't give out another death penalty no matter how heinous the violations.

[8timechamps]

Get off the death penalty dude. Seriously.

The NCAA won't give out another death penalty no matter how heinous the violations.

If Penn State didn't get the DP, then it's never going to be used again.

At the most, OSU will lose some scholarships and post season play.

[olevetonahill]

If Penn State didn't get the DP, then it's never going to be used again.

At the most, OSU will lose some scholarships and post season play.

Can we get em to give Boone's farm the Death Penalty instead?

[KantoSooner]

For those of you who've followed this sort of thing, what are the consequences for coaches like Leslie Miles who seem to be involved with dirty crap as an avocation but move on before the hammer drops? Anything?

[OU_Sooners75]

For those of you who've followed this sort of thing, what are the consequences for coaches like Leslie Miles who seem to be involved with dirty crap as an avocation but move on before the hammer drops? Anything?

If there is something he did wrong, I'm guessing show cause will follow him around for awhile.

[KantoSooner]

so effectively nothing. Not a huge surprise.

[8timechamps]

For those of you who've followed this sort of thing, what are the consequences for coaches like Leslie Miles who seem to be involved with dirty crap as an avocation but move on before the hammer drops? Anything?

The NCAA has never had the power to do anything to coaches that have moved on, that changed recently. If Lester is found to have been party to any of the violations, the NCAA can punish him at LSU. Since it's never had the power, there is no precedent and no way to know what can/will be done.

[SoonerMom2]

Seeing how DeForest was on the job up until 2011, I think it's safe to assume the NCAA will be able to go back as far as they want to investigate, and if necessary, punish OSU.

Maybe they can go back to Trabor's era since he admitted on the air this afternoon to taking cash while at OSU and breaking other NCAA rules. :)

[MsProudSooner]

The NCAA has never had the power to do anything to coaches that have moved on, that changed recently. If Lester is found to have been party to any of the violations, the NCAA can punish him at LSU. Since it's never had the power, there is no precedent and no way to know what can/will be done.

The NCAA has issued the 'Show Cause' penalty before. I don't see why they couldn't do it again.

[BoulderSooner79]

The NCAA has issued the 'Show Cause' penalty before. I don't see why they couldn't do it again.

Chip Kelly is under an 18 month show-cause penalty which could impact him if his stint with the Eagles crashes and burns in 1 season. For coaches currently moving around the CFB circuit, it is a penalty with teeth.

[Judge Smails]

Take away 10 sheep each year for five years. That will hurt them.





If Penn State didn't get the DP, then it's never going to be used again.

At the most, OSU will lose some scholarships and post season play.

[BoulderSooner79]

Take away 10 sheep each year for five years. That will hurt them.

Ouch, this isn't medieval times. Cruel and unusual punishment is not legal.

[Collier11]

To my knowledge, you cant just have admissions, gotta have actual evidence. The NCAA has to take into account that 3 of the most recent players in this story were kicked off the team and most were no names...JMHO

[8timechamps]

To my knowledge, you cant just have admissions, gotta have actual evidence. The NCAA has to take into account that 3 of the most recent players in this story were kicked off the team and most were no names...JMHO

When does a player in the good graces of a school ever report that school for wrongdoings? It's always a disgruntled player.

If the allegations are as bad as SI is claiming, I don't think they'll have too much trouble finding evidence. The fact that OSU is out in front of this thing, and Holder has personally called all the conference AD's to apologize tells me enough.

[Collier11]

I have no doubt there is guilt, just gotta wonder what all evidence can be collected and proven and what will osu do? Dodge dodge dodge like most do these days, or admit some stuff to get the ncaa off of their backs?

[CatfishSooner]

dodge dodge dodge

[bluedogok]

The NCAA has never had the power to do anything to coaches that have moved on, that changed recently. If Lester is found to have been party to any of the violations, the NCAA can punish him at LSU. Since it's never had the power, there is no precedent and no way to know what can/will be done.
Didn't some penalties follow Sampson to Indiana because of the phone calls?

[King Barry's Back]

To my knowledge, you cant just have admissions, gotta have actual evidence. The NCAA has to take into account that 3 of the most recent players in this story were kicked off the team and most were no names...JMHO

I don't think being a "no name" would disqualify them from testifying against their school. Why would it? The vast, vast majority of student-athletes are in fact no names. For example, the entire tennis and swimming teams at every school in they country.

By the way, as I understand it, statements made to NCAA investigators is considered as usable evidence by the NCAA. The more evidence, the stronger the case, so statements from 100 people is stronger than statements from 10 people, but of course statements with a papertrail is stronger still.

Last thought, the Johnny "Cash" case at A&M was dropped because none of the un-named memorabilia dealers, who told the press that they paid JFF, would talk to the NCAA. They couldn't accept press statements from un-named sources. I wonder if the SI whistle-blowers will be willing to talkt to the NCAA? I think they will, but we'll see also. Also, I wonder if the statements to SI, which are after all on tape, will be acceptable in themselves?

OS-who? Indeed.

[jkjsooner]

To my knowledge, you cant just have admissions, gotta have actual evidence. The NCAA has to take into account that 3 of the most recent players in this story were kicked off the team and most were no names...JMHO

Since when are recorded admissions not considered evidence? That's plenty good enough in a court of law and the NCAA is under no obligation to follow the rules of a court.

What kind of hard evidence are you looking for? Do you think they had hard evidence the various times we were put on probation? Did Hart Lee Dykes produce evidence other than his testimony that we offered him money? Want to question someone's intent, he played for a team who considered themselves our rival...


I would question if one guy who was kicked off the team came out and said something like this but when 10 do it the NCAA has to take it seriously.

[Collier11]

When you consider that 3 of the main witnesses were dismissed from the team, they may have a vendetta. All im saying.

[olevetonahill]

When you consider that 3 of the main witnesses were dismissed from the team, they may have a vendetta. All im saying.

Or to Do a Ned Beatty :cocksure:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQg5t0U1fvEy53UoNHtr21-JdmuJSjPsn9b-Hf1F5OfSQPdIoMA

[8timechamps]

When you consider that 3 of the main witnesses were dismissed from the team, they may have a vendetta. All im saying.

No doubt in my mind that some of the guys talking are looking to "get back" at the school. One disgruntled linebacker took down SMU. That's what OSU fans fail to realize, just because they may have an ax to grind, that doesn't mean they are not telling the truth.

As has been mentioned earlier, 99% of all whistle-blowers are not "happy" about their circumstances.

[KantoSooner]

Did anyone else hear Pappy Weeden's comments two nights ago? It was weird. He has this whole thing down as an OU plot. Now, his mental processes are not what I want to note. Rather it is the level of venom he bears towards OU. I have fun with Pokes and they with me, but it's mostly good natured. This guy seems to spend a lot of his personal time hating OU. What must it be like to be almost a 40 year old man and spend a significant portion of one's personal time wrapped up in sports hatred? How small and dark his world must be.

[PrideMom]

Now we know why Les Miles left the program in the middle of the night. Just like Pete Carrol........

[olevetonahill]

Did anyone else hear Pappy Weeden's comments two nights ago? It was weird. He has this whole thing down as an OU plot. Now, his mental processes are not what I want to note. Rather it is the level of venom he bears towards OU. I have fun with Pokes and they with me, but it's mostly good natured. This guy seems to spend a lot of his personal time hating OU. What must it be like to be almost a 40 year old man and spend a significant portion of one's personal time wrapped up in sports hatred? How small and dark his world must be.

Yea, I dont understand that Hatred either. I strongly dislike them, I really detest Saxet, But HATE? No way. Now the color Orange on the other hand.

[jkjsooner]

Yea, I dont understand that Hatred either. I strongly dislike them, I really detest Saxet, But HATE? No way. Now the color Orange on the other hand.

I may be banned for this but I actually like burnt orange. I think girls look good in it and it's fairly unique in the sporting world.

That Halloween crap that OSU wears is repulsive.

[birddog]

It's a sculpture of limitations