Liberals now claiming hard work is a liberal value

[BermudaSooner]

This is just laughable:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/opinion/begala-ashton-palin/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

my favorite quote:

"It is liberals who honor, extoll and reward hard work. That's why President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and virtually all Democrats support raising the minimum wage"

Hard work is a liberal value...not, "where my free phone at?"

Hard work is a liberal value...unless you work too hard, and then we will punish you with ever increasing taxes...

And wouldn't you not have to raise the minimum wage if those making minimum were working hard enough? hmmm....

[cleller]

Remember the MTV show the other night? Those are some hard working liberals.

[yermom]

This is just laughable:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/opinion/begala-ashton-palin/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

my favorite quote:

"It is liberals who honor, extoll and reward hard work. That's why President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and virtually all Democrats support raising the minimum wage"

Hard work is a liberal value...not, "where my free phone at?"

Hard work is a liberal value...unless you work too hard, and then we will punish you with ever increasing taxes...

And wouldn't you not have to raise the minimum wage if those making minimum were working hard enough? hmmm....

could you explain this one for me?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Leftists and hard work do not compute...they have no clue what that is about...effing dooshbags.

[BermudaSooner]

Yermom,

Sure, I can explain. If you are working hard and creating value for your employer, you will raise your wage without the help of government. Having the government artificially raise your wage doesn't promote or encourage hard work. If the value you are bringing to the employer is $5 and hour, but you are getting paid $7 an hour, how is hard work promoted by forcing the employer to pay $9 an hour?

Said another way, artificially raising the minimum wage doesn't encourge hard work, in fact it actually shows you that you don't have to work hard to get paid more.

[BermudaSooner]

On second thought regarding all of this, hard work may afterall be a liberal virtue---or at least something that liberals encourage and embrace.

The harder you work, the more money you can make. The more money you can make, the higher the tax rate you pay. The higher the tax rate, the more money liberals have to spend.

Of course, liberals embrace YOU working harder...not them....that is not for them.

[SoonerBBall]

could you explain this one for me?

The minimum wage is stupid and should not be a basis to set standards for working adults. It is a barrier to entry in the job market and artificially raises the price of all necessary consumer goods. It is only slightly less stupid than the concept of the living wage.

[REDREX]

I think it is funny that people believe you can hire a person for min wage that you expect to contribute above a very low level

[yermom]

The minimum wage is stupid and should not be a basis to set standards for working adults. It is a barrier to entry in the job market and artificially raises the price of all necessary consumer goods. It is only slightly less stupid than the concept of the living wage.

so everyone making minimum wage just isn't working hard enough because minimum wage is stupid?

[diverdog]

On second thought regarding all of this, hard work may afterall be a liberal virtue---or at least something that liberals encourage and embrace.

The harder you work, the more money you can make. The more money you can make, the higher the tax rate you pay. The higher the tax rate, the more money liberals have to spend.

Of course, liberals embrace YOU working harder...not them....that is not for them.

This is utter nonsense. There are tons of poor hard working people who vote Democrat. There are also tons of hard working poor people who vote Republican. Hard work does not always guarantee success.

[diverdog]

The minimum wage is stupid and should not be a basis to set standards for working adults. It is a barrier to entry in the job market and artificially raises the price of all necessary consumer goods. It is only slightly less stupid than the concept of the living wage.

Do you have any proof to back this up? Just asking.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Hard work does not always guarantee success.

Yes, so you need to get the skills to work hard and be able to go somewhere...Being a ditch digger all your life means you will be working hard, but you will be getting nowhere. Not a smart deal. Some people that may be all they have, but then they need to encourage their next generation to do more or different...

[diverdog]

Yes, so you need to get the skills to work hard and be able to go somewhere...Being a ditch digger all your life means you will be working hard, but you will be getting nowhere. Not a smart deal. Some people that may be all they have, but then they need to encourage their next generation to do more or different...

Yes this would give you a better opportunity but it still does not guarantee success. I know people who have masters degrees in ag who have farmed all their lives in Oklahoma and still went bust. Most never made the median family income for their entire careers. I bet without oil/gas under their land this has been the fate of a lot of farmers in Oklahoma and the rest of the world.

Equating work values to politics is nonsense. There are lots of poor minorities that work back breaking jobs every day. How many of you would work the gut line in a chicken processing facility?

Now I will agree that neither party really looks out for the average American and that Reid et al are full of ****.

[badger]

When I worked minimum wage jobs during college, I knew it was a temporary thing with no chances for raises or promotion or anything... but in some ways, it was very hard labor (lifting big boxes for hours, listening to screaming kids and their demanding parents, covering for lazy co-workers who hid in the break room).

If it was my "forever" job, I'd probably be demanding raises for putting up with that crap daily for hours. I'm not saying they will or they should be successful in this fight, but I completely understand wanting more money for menial minimum wagin'

[SoonerBBall]

so everyone making minimum wage just isn't working hard enough because minimum wage is stupid?

That doesn't even make any damn sense.

The simple fact is that if you have been employed at the minimum wage for more than a few months, you are more than likely the problem. You are either a terrible employee or you are working for an exploitative employer. People who actually care about being employed don't make minimum wage for long.

[yermom]

i asked a question, your ranty answer wasn't really explaining what he was saying

"the world needs ditch diggers" applies a few ways here.

i don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that you might be the problem if you are making minimum wage for that long, but that doesn't mean there are always other places to go.

[SoonerBBall]

Do you have any proof to back this up? Just asking.

Not explicitly, but it is really just common sense.

When you are forced to pay a minimum wage it means that, for any job that you wouldn't normally pay that rate, you have to hire a smaller number of workers at a greater cost so you are employing less people. It also means that first time workers (think teenagers with summer jobs) who wouldn't normally command a high wage are competing directly against older workers for the same jobs since the minimum wage forces employers to lump all jobs that would pay at or below the minimum level together, so again less people are employed.

As far as raising the price of goods, that is easy. When you are forced to pay a minimum wage for even the smallest portion of labor it raises the cost of the good sold by the additional cost of the labor. Additionally, since the minimum wage means less workers for the same cost that means there are less workers making money which translates to less people buying consumer goods (such as bread) so the price of the good will rise to cover lost sales. Finally, if you are assured that your market is making a certain wage, it is in the businesses best interest to raise the price of goods to capture as much of the additional income as possible without alienating its customer base.

Of course this is not an exhaustive list and doesn't cover all market forces, but it gets the point across. Let me ask you this, though, how is the minimum wage not a barrier to entry in the job market? Also, how does the minimum wage lower the price of consumer goods? If you can't answer those, then tell me why is the minimum wage so great?

[SoonerBBall]

i asked a question, your ranty answer wasn't really explaining what he was saying

"the world needs ditch diggers" applies a few ways here.

i don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that you might be the problem if you are making minimum wage for that long, but that doesn't mean there are always other places to go.

I will concede that there is a very small portion of the population that truly has nowhere else to go, but it is dwarfed by the portion of the population that probably doesn't even deserve to have a minimum wage job.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

We are fast becoming a nation of Idiots a la the movie Idiocracy. Mike Judge is rather prophetic...

[jkjsooner]

I think it is funny that people believe you can hire a person for min wage that you expect to contribute above a very low level

I worked minimum wage doing maintenance at a state park while in college. I busted my a$$. So did all the other guys I worked with.

[BermudaSooner]

Interesting to see the fast food workers in 50 cities striking today...asking for $15 an hour wages. How many of them realize that if that were to happen, that a good portion of them would lose their jobs?

[KantoSooner]

Frankly, I'm stunned that big chain fast food hasn't automated far more aggressively. The fry line, for example, screams out for robotics.
This might be just the push the industry needs to start downsizing their human workforce. Higher upfront costs, but you can amortize those. And much lower carrying costs on an ongoing basis.

I love unintended consequences. Especially when they come back to bite people who attempt to use coercion to get their way.

[BermudaSooner]

I love unintended consequences. Especially when they come back to bite people who attempt to use coercion to get their way.

Kinda like unions that now don't want Obamacare...

[TAFBSooner]

This is utter nonsense. There are tons of poor hard working people who vote Democrat. There are also tons of hard working poor people who vote Republican. Hard work does not always guarantee success.

"Work hard, all ye poor people. If you have any energy left, argue amongst yourselves about race, abortion, Kerrigan/Simpson/Bobbitt/Zimmerman, drugs, gay people, and the relative merits of red and blue. Don't trouble yourselves worrying about why you work so hard for so little."

[TAFBSooner]

I love "unintended" consequences. Especially when they come back to bite people who attempt to use coercion to get their way.

. . . keeping the see aye ay in business for over 65 years.

Threadjack - maybe.

But coercion by "the authorities" = OK by you and "Suck. On. This." Friedman,
while coercion by poor people = not so much.

[KantoSooner]

Here's an idea!

All the poor dispossessed people who are not being paid close to what they are worth or what their effort entitles them to...get together and put up a fast food restaurant chain. You could call it something like 'Po' Boys' and serve Cajun themed sandwiches. Once you got all that ill-gotten margin back from the filthy capitalists who run places like Mickey D's, I'm sure that the industry of the salt o' the earth will prevail and the chain will go on to glory.

It's out there for any and all to do. Those who don't really do need to take at least a short peek in the mirror.

[yermom]

yeah, everyone has the capital to start a business. any and all have the means to start a competitor to McDs

[SoonerBBall]

Let me ask you this, though, how is the minimum wage not a barrier to entry in the job market? Also, how does the minimum wage lower the price of consumer goods? If you can't answer those, then tell me why is the minimum wage so great?

Come on, does no-one actually support the minimum wage? I'm genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I asked.

[TAFBSooner]

yeah, everyone has the capital to start a business. any and all have the means to start a competitor to McDs

Well, there's that bastion of free enterprise, darling of libertarian entrepreneurs everywhere, the Small Business Administration. </sarcasm>

[KantoSooner]

yeah, everyone has the capital to start a business. any and all have the means to start a competitor to McDs

There are bankers who are running around all day every day looking to loan money. It's what they do. Ray Kroc had to borrow money and he was an itinerant milkshake machine salesman.

Or do you think that maybe our everyday heroes might not be up to the task of putting together a cogent business plan, putting on a tie and convincing the money people to make that loan? I mean, how hard can it be? Corrupt, undeserving exploiters do it all the time and we know that they are utterly without redeeming qualities. We hear all day every day about how the people who REALLY know how the business works are the folks who get their hands dirty (i.e. do 'REAL' work). Here's the chance.

It's either a long slog with little reward for a long time or heartstopping risk. Usually a combo of the two.

[badger]

Interesting to see the fast food workers in 50 cities striking today...asking for $15 an hour wages. How many of them realize that if that were to happen, that a good portion of them would lose their jobs?

At this point, all that is probably on the line is about $100 of take-home pay every two weeks for part-part-part-time work.

If those surrendering Frenchies have taught us anything in history books, is that if people have nothing to lose, they have no fear during revolution

[TAFBSooner]

Come on, does no-one actually support the minimum wage? I'm genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I asked.

Ex. How does the minimum wage lower the price of consumer goods?

For one, low-priced consumer goods <> nirvana, or a healthy economy. We actually have a flood of low-priced consumer goods, thanks to the Axis of Cheapness (China and Wal-Mart), but our economy is in serious and non-stable condition.

[KantoSooner]

We have an economy that is busy bifurcating. Some people are doing really well. Others are getting hammered. To simplify it: if your job is non-offshoreable and or managerial, you're probably doing pretty well. If you are doing precisely what can be done in a factory in Wuhan by someone making $4,000 a year and working 18 hour days, then you are, to use a technical term, screwed.

It's a global economy. If you're a manual laborer, you better be doing something tied to this place or you're competing with Zhili in Wuhan, Pietro in Sao Paolo and Krishnamurthy in Kolkatta. It's not going to change. Low level factory workers need to be steered into other fields or given training.

[TAFBSooner]

We have an economy that is busy bifurcating. Some people are doing really well. Others are getting hammered. To simplify it: if your job is non-offshoreable and or managerial, you're probably doing pretty well. If you are doing precisely what can be done in a factory in Wuhan by someone making $4,000 a year and working 18 hour days, then you are, to use a technical term, screwed.

It's a global economy. If you're a manual laborer, you better be doing something tied to this place or you're competing with Zhili in Wuhan, Pietro in Sao Paolo and Krishnamurthy in Kolkatta. It's not going to change. Low level factory workers need to be steered into other fields or given training.

Do you have a solution for the people who are willing to work hard, but fall on the left side of the bell curve (especially between -2 and -1 sigma) in intelligence? Assuming we're full up on A/C repair people and electric linemen. And that we're not going to use "coercion" in matters of reproduction.

I'm not saying there is a solution.

[SoonerBBall]

For one, low-priced consumer goods <> nirvana, or a healthy economy. We actually have a flood of low-priced consumer goods, thanks to the Axis of Cheapness (China and Wal-Mart), but our economy is in serious and non-stable condition.

There will always be a lower cost labor source in developing nations to deliver cheap goods. Our problem is that the minimum wage pushes our labor costs so much further above those rates that it isn't even worth it to try to compete. The minimum wage discourages low-cost good manufacturing stateside.

It is an even bigger problem for necessary consumer goods like food.

[KantoSooner]

TAFB,
The only solution I can see is to:

Spend money on education, including vocational or tech and try to inculcate 'life long' vocational education.

Institute a 'Uniform National Service' requirement where everybody would put in the years between 18 and 20 doing organized labor project for the government (except for those willing and qualified to substitute military service). You'd have last chance to get to 'kids' before they got inserted into the fully adult world.

Make benefits portable and fully paid, so that losing or switching a job was not a crisis.

but all that is mostly in service of the goal of making your workers better trained, more flexible, better prepared for job changes and more focused on jobs that can't be outsourced.

And that is going to require government money. But better that than paying welfare and sending these folks off with cheery cup of coffee, a doughnut and urging them to find work.

[TAFBSooner]

TAFB,
The only solution I can see is to:

Spend money on education, including vocational or tech and try to inculcate 'life long' vocational education.

Institute a 'Uniform National Service' requirement where everybody would put in the years between 18 and 20 doing organized labor project for the government (except for those willing and qualified to substitute military service). You'd have last chance to get to 'kids' before they got inserted into the fully adult world.

Ideally, this would include the Paris Hiltons and the SicEm's. People and pols float this idea every now and again, and very few sign on for it. Republicans mostly don't want anyone to think government could do anything worthwhile, and Democrats apparently don't want to force actual work on anyone.




Make benefits portable and fully paid, so that losing or switching a job was not a crisis.


You mean like single-payer health insurance?



but all that is mostly in service of the goal of making your workers better trained, more flexible, better prepared for job changes and more focused on jobs that can't be outsourced.

And that is going to require government money. But better that than paying welfare and sending these folks off with cheery cup of coffee, a doughnut and urging them to find work.

Yes, if you are going to spend money, far better to get something for it than nothing.

I still would like to know of a solution for those that are above MR but less than 100 IQ. Better training can improve IQ, but it can't totally transcend genetics.

[okie52]

I still would like to know of a solution for those that are above MR but less than 100 IQ. Better training can improve IQ, but it can't totally transcend genetics.

Better birth control distribution.

[TAFBSooner]

Better birth control distribution.

I am all for better birth control distribution and better, comprehensive sex ed (including and emphasizing the responsibilities of parenthood). I don't believe government should be in the business of dictating people's choices on whether or not to have kids. The exception would be people that have shown they won't take responsibility for their children.

Also, your comment didn't answer what to do about the people that are already here with IQ suitable for what was once called unskilled labor.

[okie52]

I am all for better birth control distribution and better, comprehensive sex ed (including and emphasizing the responsibilities of parenthood). I don't believe government should be in the business of dictating people's choices on whether or not to have kids. The exception would be people that have shown they won't take responsibility for their children.

Also, your comment didn't answer what to do about the people that are already here with IQ suitable for what was once called unskilled labor.

The better educated have less children as shown by birthrates in most developed countries.

Low IQs migrate to unskilled labor....nothing wrong with that.

[TAFBSooner]

The better educated have less children as shown by birthrates in most developed countries.

Low IQs migrate to unskilled labor....nothing wrong with that.

You are certainly right, but the problem we were discussing is there is a lot less demand for unskilled labor (due to offshoring and automation), while there is still a large supply of it.

[okie52]

You are certainly right, but the problem we were discussing is there is a lot less demand for unskilled labor (due to offshoring and automation), while there is still a large supply of it.

Doesn't seem to be less demand...and we have 11,000,000 unskilled, uneducated illegals here to prove it.

[KantoSooner]

Interestingly, the key to lowering birth rates is female education. Once a woman learns to read and gains the power to get a job if she has to, her assertion of control over her own body sky rockets and her lifetime fertility plummets. Ultrahigh birth rates are universally associated with traditional patriarchal societies, most typically those that arose in herding societies (Christianity, Islam and Hinduism) in which women are historically treated as breeding stock and beasts of burden.

[okie52]

Education and free or inexpensive BC is the key although from statistics I've seen birthrates also often decline during economic downturns. Also, agrarian societies have always been labor intensive so manpower (literally manpower) are desired to help on the family farms and have higher birth rates accordingly.

There are now shots women can get that will keep them from getting pregnant for up to 3 years. I would certainly support free "shots" for women.

[TAFBSooner]

Doesn't seem to be less demand...and we have 11,000,000 unskilled, uneducated illegals here to prove it.

That demand is shrinking all the time. Silicon Valley techies, inconvenienced by the fast food strike, respond by figuring out how to automate still more low-skill jobs.

Now, if techies could flip their Empathy Bit to ON, they might not be in such a hurry to destroy so many jobs.

[okie52]

That demand is shrinking all the time. Silicon Valley techies, inconvenienced by the fast food strike, respond by figuring out how to automate still more low-skill jobs.

Now, if techies could flip their Empathy Bit to ON, they might not be in such a hurry to destroy so many jobs.

You wouldn't believe demand is shrinking based on our "immigration reform" bill. In fact, they are trying to expand access to even more unskilled labor beyond the 11,000,000 illegals that are already here. It may take the techies a few decades to get beyond the ag, hotel, landscaping, construction type of low skilled jobs.

On the other hand, the immigration bill is also supposed to expand our access to techies that are being educated here and then leaving the country. More low skilled jobs...more techies...supposedly.