Obama'sPlan To Get A Single Payer System.

[FaninAma]

First he allows insurance companies to drive out of pocket expenses through the roof:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/us/a-limit-on-consumer-costs-is-delayed-in-health-care-law.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&ei=5065&partner=MYWAY

The next step coming is to raise the income limits on enrolling for partly or fully federally subsidized health insurance. Right now it is 400% of the poverty level. Look for that to be raised in the next 6 months to 500 or 600% or more. This will drive many more millions onto the federally subsidized health rolls and once that genie is out of the bottle.......

I tell you the guy is an evil genius when it comes to getting his socialist policies put in place.

Welcome to the world of government ran medicine. It will absolutely be the final straw in propelling the country into bankruptcy. I know the progressives realize this so what is their purpose in going through with a suicide plan?

[KantoSooner]

Or might just result in something like Australia's 'nationalized health system'.

Last time I checked, they were doing much better than we were in terms of both general finances and in terms of general healthcare outcomes.

But you're correct that, so far, no one in this country has focused any policy on reducing costs.

[FaninAma]

Kanto, but the way the Obama administration is doing it is going to cause a tremendous amount of pain for the country in terms of economic cost and stress to the healthcare syste. Obamacare doesn't put into place the same safeguards against overuse and abuse that the Australian and New Zealand systems have. It is going to be a mess for at least the next 5 years or more.

oh well, what else should we have expected from a product of the Chicago machine political system....true leadership and efficiency?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I think you're off base on this one Fan. Lower deductibles simply means higher premiums so it's really a wash. If you had said that his evil plan is to pass a sh!tty bill with no hope of controlling costs, that will eventually implode and lead people clamoring for single payer, then I might agree with you.

[KantoSooner]

Fanin, what I wanted was a statement that our current system is broken beyond any prayer of repair and an honest debate over what we should do about it. We have, operative right now in our country, examples of every major option in the world:

Medicare
Medicaid
Indian Health
Veteran's Admin
Private Insurance
Government Subsidized Insurance
Cash Money

etc.

It would not have been all that hard to determine the pro's and con's of each AND to further look at why we spend so damn much more than any other society on earth for our healthcare and achieve such pitifully mediocre results.

Did we get such debate? We did not. We didn't even get any opposing plan against Obamacare. We got a bunch of superannuated hacks with intense self interest (Mitch McConnell, I'm looking straight at you, bro.) telling us that the bogeyman would get us if we allowed 'The Socialist' to have his way. On the one side. And, for our sins, on the other we got Nancy telling us we had to enact the law so that we could, like a giant pinata, find out what was inside.

And, oh, in the meantime, Nancy and co were very firm in assuring all who'd listen that we'd just have to pay, 'whatever it takes'. (I'll leave to rest the logical imbecility of that statement. What, Nance, old girl, how about 150% of GNP? How about $500 quadrillion? How about the moon, made out of 24 karat gold? Are there limits? None that that minging fool cared to address when in full political cry.)

So, now we've got a pig in a poke. A system that puts governmental imprimatur on a system run by and for insurance companies, but without even the modest oversight exercised under medicare. And we expect this to work well?

I despise our current system, which, it seems to me, is designed to produce waste, fraud and abuse. And, worse yet, to force doctors into bad medicine and hospitals into gross dereliction of their mission.

I fear I'll despise what's coming just as much.

And we, the people, are stuck in a juvenile war of talking points that 99% of those who mouth them could not unpack and explain if their own lives depended on it.

Obama didn't lead and the 'anti-Obamas' did everything they could to screw the mess up worse as well. Hard to get a good result when one group is burning the boat down and the other is down in the hold punching holes in the hull.

[FaninAma]

Kanto,
The system is broken but Obamacare is a system that incorporates the worst parts of a single-payer system and our current system.

The insurance companies will make a bigger profit than before under Obamacare because now they will be getting reimbursed for younger people with less medical problems who chose no or catastrophic healthcare plans before.

There are no disincentives for all of the fully subsidized patients to now start running into the local ER and urgent cares for routine issues. There are no measures to determine cost-benefit for end of life expenditures. These last 2 items account for over half of all health care costs currently. And if anything, Obamacare will increase the use of both, IMO.

Obama and the Democrats didn't have the guts to put an effective single-payer system into place and I don't think it was because of the voters. It was because they were of afraid of the insurance companies and all the other corporations who currently profit enormously from the current system.

[FaninAma]

I think you're off base on this one Fan. Lower deductibles simply means higher premiums so it's really a wash. If you had said that his e plan is to pass a sh!tty bill with no hope of controlling costs, that will eventually implode and lead people clamoring for single payer, then I might agree with you.

No, the goal is to force as many middle class individuals as possible to choose between a private plan with high deductibles or enroll in a plan heavily subsidized by taxpayers. Then when the government has enough people enrolled they will bludgeon healthcare providers through reimbursement. The plans will turn out to be crappy because those with true emergencies will be waiting hours in ER's and urgent cares along with all those there to have their sniffles and butt pimples taken care of.

Doctor and provider shortages will be rampant. I expect a 2 tier system like Great Britain's to emerge.

[KantoSooner]

If we get Britain's system, I'll be a happy camper. Far from the discontent of the 1960's, it's now the single most popular part of the government there.

As to your other observations on what's to come, I could quibble here and there, but not in any major way.

[FaninAma]

I'd be fine with the British system, too. The scarey part about the healthcare debate in this country is that it is now a political football and that will prevent any real action in controlling costs. Add the new deficit spending to our current debt problem and you can see where this is headed.

[cleller]

I was noticing some of the above examples of health care that the gov has its fingers into:

Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Indian, etc.

Does not give me much optimism.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

The great UK medical care you speak of, has death panels, will not treat people based upon their ability to produce for the common good, has bed shortages, extreme filthy conditions in hospital, highest MRSA and non-treatable infections of any 1st world hospital system, imports doctors from 3rd world countries... the list goes on...

[KantoSooner]

I was noticing some of the above examples of health care that the gov has its fingers into:

Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Indian, etc.

Does not give me much optimism.

And our private sector does? This must be the outstanding example of 'background selling': they give you a product that is no better than middling, charge you twice as much for it as anyone else in the world pays ... and you love them for it. Wild.

[KantoSooner]

The great UK medical care you speak of, has death panels, will not treat people based upon their ability to produce for the common good, has bed shortages, extreme filthy conditions in hospital, highest MRSA and non-treatable infections of any 1st world hospital system, imports doctors from 3rd world countries... the list goes on...

Don't know your source, but the one time I was treated there (stitches), it worked just fine and they comped the bill as it would be too much hassle for too little money.

The Brits I know are well pleased with the service. Are we well pleased with ours?

[FaninAma]

Don't know your source, but the one time I was treated there (stitches), it worked just fine and they comped the bill as it would be too much hassle for too little money.

The Brits I know are well pleased with the service. Are we well pleased with ours?

You do realize that with a one payer system the malpractice attorneys will have to be reigned in. That will definitely be one good result.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

we well pleased with ours?

Very... I have my choice of doctors, I manage my care and know which ones are in-program and which ones are out of program.

[KantoSooner]

You do realize that with a one payer system the malpractice attorneys will have to be reigned in. That will definitely be one good result.

If you give me that, I'll throw in a flat tax and we can put both the malprac attys AND the CPA's to work doing something of worth to the society. I dunno. Fixing trails at the national parks. Something.

[KantoSooner]

Very... I have my choice of doctors, I manage my care and know which ones are in-program and which ones are out of program.

And I presume that you wake up each day joyous that you get to pay twice as much as the next highest country in the world for your choice of doctors?

(which, by the way, you would have in Japan, Australia and to a large degree in Britain (that old bugaboo); all of which are socialized medicine. Let me explain how it works in Japan, where I had many years of experience with it. You get sick. You go to a local clinic, owned and operated by a private doctor. He treats you (including giving you your meds) and you pay with your national health card. You don't like him? Go to another private clinic and, wait for it, pay with your national health card. But now you're headed to the hospital. It's not an emergency, so you can afford taking a bit of extra time to get there. YOU PICK your hospital. Some are municipal or national or university affiliated, some are private. Again,you pick. And you pay with your natinoal health card.
Most office visit co-pays? $1-5.
My father-in-laws 3X bypass co-pay? About $5,000 for a three week stay and surgery in a private hospital, and he's a bitchy SOB who demanded they go get meals for him from a local noodle shop.

I"m not saying any of this is 'Obamacare'. I would doubt highly that it is. What is clear is that healthcare that meets or exceeds the qualtity and choice delivered by our system can be acheived under so-called 'socialized medicine'. And, since my doctor there lived in a (for Tokyo) huge house, drove his and hers benzes and vacationed around the world, it didn't look to me like the medico's had to take it in the shorts too badly for all that to happen.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Since, I am not familiar with what you are saying, I don't know. I will ask my long term colleague about his healthcare in Tokyo. Plus he is a Brit, so I might get a view of both sides you speak of.

But from what I have read and know about the UK and Canadian style healthcare, I like what I have better than what I am aware they have.

[KantoSooner]

Fair enough. ASk him when you do get in touch whether he is on the national health plan there or if his company simply pays for him to go to the foreign clinics (which are waaaaay more expensive but you get doctors who speak English which is kind of important if you don't speak Japanese. Kind of what you'd expect to pay a Japanese speaking physician here. (and there are some in LA, NYC, SFO, etc. Vellllly wealthy people.))

[champions77]

The government programs we had "before " Obamacare were all over budget and fraught with inefficiencies, fraud and abuse, so Obama pushed through yet another entitlement program based on phony math and unrealistic cost projections, providing free health insurance coverage for an additional 30-40 Million Americans, with the promise that everyone's health insurance would become less expensive.... And we bought it. How. Stupid can we be ? We deserve Obama, If you can 't see through this guy, then you get what you deserve. .

[FaninAma]

Champions77, the astronomical cost of medicine only reared its ugly head after the government became involved through Medicare and Medicaid.

Expansion of provided services without guidelines for their use always, always increases demand over supply. Then throw in layer upon layer of
regulatory mandates and you end up with what we have today. The cost of medical care in this country will never be controlled until
demand is controlled by shortages or strict regulation of the available resources.

[FaninAma]

Already starting to see an increase in Medicaid patients in the ER who can't get in with a private doctor. It is only going to get worse. Also remember that as ObamaCare changes the reimbursement scale even more to favor preventative and well care visits that is what the private docs will fill their schedule with making it even harder to get into to see them when you are sick. Sick patients will more and more be shunted to ERs and urgent cares and waiting times are going to go up accordingly.

[REDREX]

Nothing run by the Gov't will be better or more cost effective than a private system

[pphilfran]

Personally, I like the Swiss system

[okie52]

I do too.