The Anthropogenic Global Warming Scare is Almost Behind Us.

[sappstuf]

Climate models(73 of them) do not reflect reality and it gets worse every year.

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/CMIP5-73-models-vs-obs-20N-20S-MT-5-yr-means1.png

The theory is wrong.

For a bigger picture:

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/CMIP5-73-models-vs-obs-20N-20S-MT-5-yr-means1.png

[cleller]

Hasn't the continuing drought taught you that all predictions are accurate?

[diverdog]

Hasn't the continuing drought taught you that all predictions are accurate?

What he should have learned is his (Dr. Spencer's) data is flawed.

[sappstuf]

What he should have learned is his (Dr. Spencer's) data is flawed.

It isn't his data. It is a compilation of climate models and, at the bottom, averages of actual temps.

[olevetonahill]

Global warmin is 2000ish Dont you know NOW its simply "Climate Change" :hopelessness:

[KantoSooner]

If I had to pick a place in which to set up a factory, I'd pick China any day. No effective regulation whatsoever. No oversight. No hassles.

If I had to pick a place to live based on the environment, someplace in Western Europe or North America. Our environments are protected to a great degree and you can breath the air and touch the water without being overcome with disease.

I think we can all agree that dumping crap into our enviroment, whether it be solid, liquid or gaseous crap, is not a good thing to do and that we should try, at least a bit, to leave the world to our kids in a bit better condition than that in which it was given to us.

It seems to me that the above is a basis for reasonable efforts at cleaning up our act while we're on the road to water tight weather modelling.

[olevetonahill]

If I had to pick a place in which to set up a factory, I'd pick China any day. No effective regulation whatsoever. No oversight. No hassles.

If I had to pick a place to live based on the environment, someplace in Western Europe or North America. Our environments are protected to a great degree and you can breath the air and touch the water without being overcome with disease.

I think we can all agree that dumping crap into our enviroment, whether it be solid, liquid or gaseous crap, is not a good thing to do and that we should try, at least a bit, to leave the world to our kids in a bit better condition than that in which it was given to us.

It seems to me that the above is a basis for reasonable efforts at cleaning up our act while we're on the road to water tight weather modelling.

I agree brother. We most definitely should clean up our act. But this all would be more easily accepted if they wernt tryin to shove it down our throats saying its ALL because of Man that this is happening.

[sappstuf]

Global warmin is 2000ish Dont you know NOW its simply "Climate Change" :hopelessness:

It has to be. There hasn't been any global warming in the 2000s....

[KantoSooner]

I agree brother. We most definitely should clean up our act. But this all would be more easily accepted if they wernt tryin to shove it down our throats saying its ALL because of Man that this is happening.

Here's where the left has the better of the issue, though. Some sort of regulation really is necessary because, in the heat of competition, very few business people are going to voluntarily spend extra money or hobble their factories. Further, virtually no human being will take care of stuff that is held in common. For proof of this concept, tell me about the last time you pulled your car over to clean up a public rest room. So there is some degree of public regulation that is necessary and there will always be at least one person out there who isn't happy with whatever that regulation is. We're doomed to argue about this stuff forever.

[olevetonahill]

Here's where the left has the better of the issue, though. Some sort of regulation really is necessary because, in the heat of competition, very few business people are going to voluntarily spend extra money or hobble their factories. Further, virtually no human being will take care of stuff that is held in common. For proof of this concept, tell me about the last time you pulled your car over to clean up a public rest room. So there is some degree of public regulation that is necessary and there will always be at least one person out there who isn't happy with whatever that regulation is. We're doomed to argue about this stuff forever.

Im pretty much in agreement with ya bro.Like i said tho quit pissin on my head and telling me its Only rain.
If they would come and admit its Happening anyway , We cant stop it, but we can slow it down , that would make more sense.

[jkjsooner]

If I had to pick a place in which to set up a factory, I'd pick China any day. No effective regulation whatsoever. No oversight. No hassles.

If I had to pick a place to live based on the environment, someplace in Western Europe or North America. Our environments are protected to a great degree and you can breath the air and touch the water without being overcome with disease.

I think we can all agree that dumping crap into our enviroment, whether it be solid, liquid or gaseous crap, is not a good thing to do and that we should try, at least a bit, to leave the world to our kids in a bit better condition than that in which it was given to us.

It seems to me that the above is a basis for reasonable efforts at cleaning up our act while we're on the road to water tight weather modelling.

Agree with everything except the no hassles comment. I've heard of plenty of stories of businesses that have had to deal with more than their share of hassles from the Chinese government.

[BermudaSooner]

but...but....my computer says you have to stop driving your SUV.....

[KantoSooner]

jkj, the whole key to doing business in China is quite simple. You need to be either too small to attract attention (and generally it pays at any scale to keep your head down and be very grey). Or you need to find the most senior 50 year old general you can and check out his kids. If he has a second or third son who's not a psychopath, preferably one who's not too bright and knows it and is a bit scared, with a taste for cognac, then HUZZAH! you've just found your new partner and VP of Govt Relations.

When the tax boys or whoever come by and see that People's Liberation Army Benz sitting in your parking lot, with the flags on the little poles on the bumpers, why their whole attitude changes with breathtaking rapidity. Buy everybody lunch, invite the general and his staff, as well. Order the lobster medallions in garlic mayonnaise with pan fried lettuce. It's a winner. Shots of very special maotai all 'round! And by three o'clock or so you'll all be the best of chums and that annoying little tax question? Why it really did turn out to be nothing at all.

Or you could play by 'the rules' as they exist in Springfield, MO and get your head handed to you with tedious regularity.

The former method is waaaaaaaaaay more fun.

[diverdog]

It isn't his data. It is a compilation of climate models and, at the bottom, averages of actual temps.

No it is selective data. They guy has been debunked several times.

[sooner_born_1960]

No it is selective data. They guy has been debunked several times.
Probably debunked by the guys that drew those lines that didn't quite pan out.

[sappstuf]

No it is selective data. They guy has been debunked several times.

Then it should be quite simple for you to provide the data showing that it has continued to warm the past decade and a half.

[olevetonahill]

Then it should be quite simple for you to provide the data showing that it has continued to warm the past decade and a half.

All I know is 40 years ago Here in the winter you could Ice skate on the ponds for a few months every year. Not so much anymore, We are gettin warmer.
You cant deny that fact. My main bitch with all this is those who say its all our fault. Like the world aint been heatin up an coolin down forever. Are we Helping? hell yes , But we aint the ONLY ****IN reason .

[sappstuf]

All I know is 40 years ago Here in the winter you could Ice skate on the ponds for a few months every year. Not so much anymore, We are gettin warmer.
You cant deny that fact. My main bitch with all this is those who say its all our fault. Like the world aint been heatin up an coolin down forever. Are we Helping? hell yes , But we aint the ONLY ****IN reason .

The earth went through a cooling period from the 1940s to the 1970s, so you are correct, it was colder. But CO2 was going up during that period and the supposed theory states... Ah nevermind. Anyway, that is why global cooling was all the rage in the 1970s.

So then we went through a normal warming period from the 70s to the late 90s with temps peaking in those late years. Now it appears we are on the way back down. It might just be that the interaction between the giant ball of fire at the center of our solar systems and our oceans have a much larger impact on our global temperature than a trace gas...

Ski resorts in France are open in June that usually close in April and have as much snow as in January. First time they have ever opened in June.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10094497/June-opening-for-French-ski-resort-as-temperatures-plummet-in-Europe.html

Coldest spring in 50 years in England.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333312/UK-weather-Spring-coldest-50-years-average-temperature-just-6C.html

The Nenana Ice Classic ijn Alaska has been tracking the exact time down to the minute that the ice has broken up since 1917. A couple of years ago global warming support Geophysicist Martin Jeffries stated, "The Nenana Ice Classic is a pretty good proxy for climate change in the 20th century.". If that is true we are in trouble.. The ice went out later than ever before beating the old record from 1964.

Somehow, I doubt that is what he meant....

[sappstuf]

No it is selective data. They guy has been debunked several times.

There was a NYTimes article from a couple of days ago acknowledging the slowdown. It isn't selective data. It is very real. I will point out a couple of things from it.


The rise in the surface temperature of earth has been markedly slower over the last 15 years than in the 20 years before that. And that lull in warming has occurred even as greenhouse gases have accumulated in the atmosphere at a record pace.

I thought this was easy... CO2 goes up and we have catastrophic warming. Guess it wasn't so simple.


The slowdown is a bit of a mystery to climate scientists.

Wha?? So the science isn't settled?


The situation highlights important gaps in our knowledge of the climate system, some of which cannot be closed until we get better measurements from high in space and from deep in the ocean.

Important gaps?? How can science be settled if there are missing gaps?

That article was supposed to be supportive of catastrophic global warming...

Another report from Science:


What Are Climate Models Missing? (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6136/1053.summary)

Most skeptics believe that the models have sensitivity to CO2 way too high. CO2 does raise temps, but nowhere near what the models show... The models are now clearly wrong.

But... There is too much money involved so believers of AGW have to come up with more and more elaborate explanations of why global temps are not rising as they predicted. They can never admit it isn't CO2.. There is no money or power to be made from temps rising based on natural variability...

[cleller]

If the 1940s-1970s was a global cooling event, my respect for the pioneers who settled here then endured thru the depression years just went even higher.

[KABOOKIE]

Thousands of meteorologist and climatogist are being PAID to look for any evidence of AGW. These same scientist also program the predictive models based upon their theory of how things should work. Despite their claims of objectivity in programming, there's no possible way they can avoid programming their bias as their careers depend on proving AGW exist.

[yermom]

it's cool. we can just live in cities like Bejing

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/tjptHtL_2SdA9Ubqsjz4Og--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MjU1MDtjcj0xO2N3PTM1Njc7ZHg9MD tkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTQ1MTtxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://globalfinance.zenfs.com/images/US_AHTTP_AP_FINANCIALTIMES/5687800f81d7f803270f6a7067000b0a_original.jpg

[pphilfran]

it's cool. we can just live in cities like Bejing

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/tjptHtL_2SdA9Ubqsjz4Og--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MjU1MDtjcj0xO2N3PTM1Njc7ZHg9MD tkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTQ1MTtxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://globalfinance.zenfs.com/images/US_AHTTP_AP_FINANCIALTIMES/5687800f81d7f803270f6a7067000b0a_original.jpg

The old scare tactic...

http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=90&pid=44&aid=8

You do realize US CO2 emissions are down by 10% since 2007....in fact we are back to 1997 levels...

China, on the other hand, has increased it's CO2 emissions by 40% since 2007 - more than doubled since 2003...in fact, China currently emits 40% more than the US...

[sappstuf]

it's cool. we can just live in cities like Bejing

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/tjptHtL_2SdA9Ubqsjz4Og--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MjU1MDtjcj0xO2N3PTM1Njc7ZHg9MD tkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTQ1MTtxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://globalfinance.zenfs.com/images/US_AHTTP_AP_FINANCIALTIMES/5687800f81d7f803270f6a7067000b0a_original.jpg

What does that picture have to do with CO2 causing global warming?

Oh, oh... Is that mask he is wearing a new CO2 self-sequestration device?

[okie52]

What does that picture have to do with CO2 causing global warming?

Oh, oh... Is that mask he is wearing a new CO2 self-sequestration device?

Better not question the "party of science".

[yermom]

The old scare tactic...

http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=90&pid=44&aid=8

You do realize US CO2 emissions are down by 10% since 2007....in fact we are back to 1997 levels...

China, on the other hand, has increased it's CO2 emissions by 40% since 2007 - more than doubled since 2003...in fact, China currently emits 40% more than the US...


What does that picture have to do with CO2 causing global warming?

Oh, oh... Is that mask he is wearing a new CO2 self-sequestration device?

regardless of global warming, maybe CO2 emissions/environmental concerns are valid. i'm presenting an example of what the hands off approach gets you.

[okie52]

regardless of global warming, maybe CO2 emissions/environmental concerns are valid. i'm presenting an example of what the hands off approach gets you.

Not so much hands off as a country of 1.5 billion people packed in an area smaller than the US.

[yermom]

the whole country isn't like that

[okie52]

the whole country isn't like that

Its on its way.

China and India are building a coal fired plant every week. Overpopulation is more of an AGW problem than CO2

[pphilfran]

regardless of global warming, maybe CO2 emissions/environmental concerns are valid. i'm presenting an example of what the hands off approach gets you.

Hands off? It seems to me the US is doing well...

How do you suggest we handle China and India?

If we eliminated all of our CO2 emissions it will take China and India less then 8 years to grow their emission by that amount....

Since 1997

US down by 1.56%
World up 41.37%
China up 178.46%
India up 101.59%

Since 2007
US down 8.89%
World up 9.57%
China up 37.76%
India up 26.32%
France down 11.52
Germany down 9.46%
UK down 12.83
But we are the bad guys that haven't done ****...

[yermom]

i'm not sure what you are saying.

the same people that want global warming to not be real are complaining about controls on CO2 emissions and government regulations. most of it from the propaganda machine that wants everyone buying bigger SUVs to use more of their gas, if i had to guess.

find me some "skeptics" that don't have their pockets lined by big oil, and i'd be pretty surprised

[pphilfran]

yermom, the way I see it...

We have a real nice NG breakthrough that can help bridge over to electric and ultimately fuel cell vehicles...Electrics, at a minimum, need a doubling of capacity at half the cost...that is going to take time...electrics best times are going to be 10-25 years from now...I expect fuel cells to be viable within 20 years of so...

[yermom]

i feel like we are having two different conversations

[pphilfran]

i'm not sure what you are saying.

the same people that want global warming to not be real are complaining about controls on CO2 emissions and government regulations. most of it from the propaganda machine that wants everyone buying bigger SUVs to use more of their gas, if i had to guess.

find me some "skeptics" that don't have their pockets lined by big oil, and i'd be pretty surprised

Controls on CO2 emissions? Yee old carbon tax? "Clean Coal"?

Get the government on board with NG and NG fueled vehicles and fueling stations...DC should be leading the charge on moving some transportation over to NG...they haven't made much more than a token effort.....but of course NG is dirty so some view it as unfavorable...but it will reduce emissions significantly...lower costs to the consumer ( though we should expect some increase in price due to increased demand)...keep US money from flowing overseas...create high paying US jobs....

But all we get out of DC is that token effort...

[pphilfran]

Hell, I'm a skeptic...but I could also be wrong so I tend to hedge my bets....

There are draconian ways to lower emissions...the big baseball bat n the form of a carbon tax....high cost Clean Cola and it's CO2 capture and storage...wind and solar that are still outrageously expensive...all add to costs going forward...forever...

Or,

Use a little sweetener and help push NG filling stations....push NG exploration...a little up front cash and the economy reaps lower costs for a couple of decades...

I would expect both to have similar CO2 reduction results...

Now which do you choose?

If CO2 is a major contributor how should we handle China and India...they single handedly are destroying the world...what should we do?

[pphilfran]

We have a gift horse prancing around in the US...10 years ago no one in their right mind really envisioned what was about to happen...

We have the opportunity to lower fuel costs going forward...we have to opportunity to lower emissions moving forward...we need 20 years out of NG....then (with an overlap) 20-25 years out of electrics...then fuel cells far out into the future....

[sappstuf]

regardless of global warming, maybe CO2 emissions/environmental concerns are valid. i'm presenting an example of what the hands off approach gets you.

CO2 isn't the cause of the picture you posted of smog. It has nothing to do with it. That would be other compounds like ground-level ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide.

Your example is nothing more than a sleight of hand trick..

[OU68]

We have a gift horse prancing around in the US...10 years ago no one in their right mind really envisioned what was about to happen...

We have the opportunity to lower fuel costs going forward...we have to opportunity to lower emissions moving forward...we need 20 years out of NG....then (with an overlap) 20-25 years out of electrics...then fuel cells far out into the future....

DC ignoring NG is the biggest travesty of this administration.

[TAFBSooner]

....high cost Clean Cola

At least that will make Bloomberg happy . . .

[yermom]

CO2 isn't the cause of the picture you posted of smog. It has nothing to do with it. That would be other compounds like ground-level ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide.

Your example is nothing more than a sleight of hand trick..

way to miss the point.

[yermom]

Controls on CO2 emissions? Yee old carbon tax? "Clean Coal"?

Get the government on board with NG and NG fueled vehicles and fueling stations...DC should be leading the charge on moving some transportation over to NG...they haven't made much more than a token effort.....but of course NG is dirty so some view it as unfavorable...but it will reduce emissions significantly...lower costs to the consumer ( though we should expect some increase in price due to increased demand)...keep US money from flowing overseas...create high paying US jobs....

But all we get out of DC is that token effort...

the government already has tax credits. i can fill up CNG lots of places.

try finding a car to buy though. it's all fleet stuff or private conversions. for some reason the car makers aren't selling them. i still think they are in bed with big oil. there is no excuse for the MPG of current cars, and especially trucks, just based on what has been available in the last 20 years.

[sappstuf]

way to miss the point.

Your point has nothing to do with this thread. Man-made global warming... Or the fact that it doesn't really exist.

[yermom]

show me a scientist that agrees with that that isn't funded by some conservative think tank

[sappstuf]

show me a scientist that agrees with that that isn't funded by some conservative think tank

I have linked to the NYTimes. The lack of warming is accepted.

Facts don't have political affiliation.

[yermom]

this one?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/science/earth/what-to-make-of-a-climate-change-plateau.html?_r=0

[okie52]

the government already has tax credits. i can fill up CNG lots of places.

try finding a car to buy though. it's all fleet stuff or private conversions. for some reason the car makers aren't selling them. i still think they are in bed with big oil. there is no excuse for the MPG of current cars, and especially trucks, just based on what has been available in the last 20 years.

Nonsense...ng should have thousands of more fueling points which Obama has completely ignored. It took Aubrey and t Boone spending a billion of their own money to build ng fueling points on the west coast for truckers while Obama supported spending billions on ethanol distribution centers...a total boondoggle.

It's necessary for the ng fueling centers sothat demand for ng cars will rise which will lower production costs on factory built ng cars....for all of obamas cheap talk about CO2 reduction he has avoided helping the one energy source that could reduce CO2 the quickest and move the US towards energy independence the fastest.

[pphilfran]

the government already has tax credits. i can fill up CNG lots of places.

try finding a car to buy though. it's all fleet stuff or private conversions. for some reason the car makers aren't selling them. i still think they are in bed with big oil. there is no excuse for the MPG of current cars, and especially trucks, just based on what has been available in the last 20 years.

They ain't making them because they aren't selling because people are afraid of change and they don't want to search for a station...there are not near enough at the current time...we have to make it practical for people to change over or it will take forever to see any real gains...

This is where government can help make a difference and push a little...