No New Border Security Measures Before Granting Amnesty

[FaninAma]

Why would we want to slow down the illegal immigration from south of the border when allowing even more to come into this country will speed us along a path to being more like their countries of origin?

http://news.yahoo.com/amnesty-intl-disappearances-mexico-crisis-221818184.html

[yermom]

maybe Mexico shouldn't be so ****ty?

if we didn't have to import drugs, i think everyone would be better off. well, the people we want better off, anyway.

as long as Central and South America are ****holes, we'll have to shoot people to keep them from crossing the border.

[olevetonahill]

maybe Mexico shouldn't be so ****ty?

if we didn't have to import drugs, i think everyone would be better off. well, the people we want better off, anyway.


as long as Central and South America are ****holes, we'll have to shoot people to keep them from crossing the border.

So whats the Problem?

[FaninAma]

maybe Mexico shouldn't be so ****ty?

if we didn't have to import drugs, i think everyone would be better off. well, the people we want better off, anyway.

as long as Central and South America are ****holes, we'll have to shoot people to keep them from crossing the border.
Why are they ****holes? Why are several Scandanavian countries voted the best countries to live in for quality of life measures year after year?

What is the difference?

[yermom]

Catholics?

[FaninAma]

Catholics?

Don't think so. It may have something to do with diversity.....or lack there of.

[Soonerjeepman]

Don't think so. It may have something to do with diversity.....or lack there of.

when it's just us Catholics we b cool~

[yermom]

Don't think so. It may have something to do with diversity.....or lack there of.

of course, the master race.

why didn't i think of that?

[cleller]

If crime, violence, murder, human rights violations, poverty, disease, prejudice, misogyny, mutilation, torture, corruption, intolerance, kidnapping, and air quality are all worse south of the border, who are we to say that's not something we want imported?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

If crime, violence, murder, human rights violations, poverty, disease, prejudice, misogyny, mutilation, torture, corruption, intolerance, kidnapping, and air quality are all worse south of the border, who are we to say that's not something we want imported?

Clellar, these Republican campaign slogans are refreshing.

[cleller]

Clellar, these Republican campaign slogans are refreshing.

But is it false? I suppose opening the Bering Strait to Russian emigre's is fine, also?

[FaninAma]

of course, the master race.

why didn't i think of that?
Refute my assertion. I made no comment on whether lack of diversity is a good thing. I'm not the one pointing to these countries as the ideal societies to live in. It is usually liberal media outlets doing that.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/best-countries-to-live-in-2013/question-3597425/

[cleller]

Regarding Mexico: World's most dangerous country. Five or the ten most deadly world cities are in Mexico:
http://in.news.yahoo.com/mexico-officially-named-worlds-most-dangerous-country-090330280.html

Also, most dangerous country for journalists per International Press Institute:
http://laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=366139&CategoryId=14091

[KantoSooner]

And the Czech Republic regularly tops the suicide per capita list. And they have awesome beer and some of the finest looking, most intellectual women on earth. Why they not happy full time?

Can we stop tossing stats around aimlessly (or intending the implications and then disavowing those implications) and start connecting the dots if we want to make points?

[cleller]

The dots I'm trying to connect are that Mexico is a dangerous place (if it isn't obvious), so trying to keep better control of who is crossing the border from there is important. What causes Czechs to top themselves isn't going to migrate here thru the border. The crime and instability in Mexico certainly could.

Its illogical to assume that the inhabitants of such a dangerous place are going to suddenly turn into Ozzie and Harriet once they make it to the US.

[okie52]

And the Czech Republic regularly tops the suicide per capita list. And they have awesome beer and some of the finest looking, most intellectual women on earth. Why they not happy full time?

Can we stop tossing stats around aimlessly (or intending the implications and then disavowing those implications) and start connecting the dots if we want to make points?

The total population of the Czech republic is less than the amount of illegals in the US.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The dots I'm trying to connect are that Mexico is a dangerous place (if it isn't obvious), so trying to keep better control of who is crossing the border from there is important. What causes Czechs to top themselves isn't going to migrate here thru the border. The crime and instability in Mexico certainly could.

Its illogical to assume that the inhabitants of such a dangerous place are going to suddenly turn into Ozzie and Harriet once they make it to the US.

Mexico and American inner cities are dangerous places largely due to Americans' appetite for illicit drugs. The people coming here to invade the Home Depot parking lot aren't the dangerous folks. The dangerous folks stay where they have the police bought off and can operate with impugnity. And it's too cold for them in Chicago.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

But is it false? I suppose opening the Bering Strait to Russian emigre's is fine, also?


Well, let's see. Juarez is #2 on the dangerous city list. Lots of murders. Yet El Paso, right across the border, with 86% Latino population, has a murder rate that is no different than the U.S. national average, at 0.05. It doesn't appear to have been "imported" by a "porous" border.

We have more citizens of German descent than any other European country. Did it turn the U.S. into Nazi Germany? Did our eastern European immigrants turn the U.S. into communists? Did our Chinese immigrants "import" human rights violations and the ills of their homeland?

There are dangerous places in Mexico no doubt with brutal wars between the drug cartels - fully financed by their U.S. customers.

[KantoSooner]

The dots I'm trying to connect are that Mexico is a dangerous place (if it isn't obvious), so trying to keep better control of who is crossing the border from there is important. What causes Czechs to top themselves isn't going to migrate here thru the border. The crime and instability in Mexico certainly could.

Its illogical to assume that the inhabitants of such a dangerous place are going to suddenly turn into Ozzie and Harriet once they make it to the US.

Thanks for engaging.


My point had nothing to do with the Czechs per se, but with the use of isolated, unintegrated statistics in the course of an argument/discussion. Just throwing numbers around has the effect of defocusing the conversation and inflaming without informing. You've tied your point into the discussion. Thanks.

[okie52]

Even so, no matter which measure is used, Hispanics make up nearly three-in-ten of the nation’s poor—28.6% under the official poverty measure and 28.7% under the SPM.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2011/11/08/hispanic-poverty-rate-highest-in-new-supplemental-census-measure/

[sappstuf]

Mexico and American inner cities are dangerous places largely due to Americans' appetite for illicit drugs. The people coming here to invade the Home Depot parking lot aren't the dangerous folks. The dangerous folks stay where they have the police bought off and can operate with impugnity. And it's too cold for them in Chicago.

You have never been to LA County lockup...

[FaninAma]

Mexico and American inner cities are dangerous places largely due to Americans' appetite for illicit drugs. The people coming here to invade the Home Depot parking lot aren't the dangerous folks. The dangerous folks stay where they have the police bought off and can operate with impugnity. And it's too cold for them in Chicago.

Then find a way to separate the two groups. The current immigration laws and the proposed new amnesty program don't do that.

[cleller]

Well, let's see. Juarez is #2 on the dangerous city list. Lots of murders. Yet El Paso, right across the border, with 86% Latino population, has a murder rate that is no different than the U.S. national average, at 0.05. It doesn't appear to have been "imported" by a "porous" border.



Looking at murder rates, the states that jump out at you are Louisiana and Mississippi, states with demographics that been discussed for ages in the examination of crime and poverty.

New Mexico and Arizona also have very high murder rates, yet not alot in common with the Deep South states. Higher than states like New York, New Jersey, Illinois with very visible issues in the murder category. What they do have is a border with Mexico.

Is it unreasonable to assume the proximity to Mexico could play into their high murder rates?
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

There's also the issue of Hispanic gangs, which are some of the most violent cases you could ever run across. Their members move guns, drugs, cash and people across the border, and have been steadily increasing their presence in the US.

[KantoSooner]

You make a point, Cleller, but you could also make counter arguments, such as Arizona's rate being affected by economic collapse over the past five years or New Mexico's homegrown dysfunction in Albuquerque and the Navajo Rez (combined with a small population base).
Ive been pretty surprised that more cartel violence hasn't crossed the border; simply looking at the volume of death going on over there.

Frankly, I'd like to see us get started with whatever immigration reforms we can get going with first and bring 'em all on track asap. One benefit I suspect we'll see is that of separating out the real criminal element from those who are illegal economic migrants. And hopefully that'll shine a brighter light on the gangs and other violent criminals.

If the fastest thing we can do is offer jobs to unemployed combat vets to patrol the border, then dandy, lets go. Everify can also be geared up pretty quickly. A 'stand still' on deportation coupled with, say, a six month grace period in which you have to get registered in order to be eligible for whatever 'program' might also be a good idea. There's a lot of stuff we could do in weeks, but we've got a lot of galoots playing for the teevee cameras instead of trying to do the country's work. It's damn annoying.

Now, I gotta run quick and go book the concrete guy to come pour the new patio. I've got a feeling concrete work is going to be hard to come by come fall.

[cleller]

You make a point, Cleller, but you could also make counter arguments, such as Arizona's rate being affected by economic collapse over the past five years or New Mexico's homegrown dysfunction in Albuquerque and the Navajo Rez (combined with a small population base).



Except that the rates go back to 1996, and have been consistent over the years, always higher than the states adjoining them. Like the country as a whole, higher in the mid 90's until a slight downturn the last few years. The reservations could be a factor.

[OU68]

This should probably be a separate thread, but I'm a hell of a lot less worried about the Mexicans as I am about the India Indians -- they have killed IT for US citizens, taking over the medical field - about the only profession they haven't assaulted is Law - guess they looked at Mid and decided it wasn't worth their time :biggrin:

[KantoSooner]

How did they 'kill' IT for Americans? What could be off-shored and done as well, for less, overseas always can and will be. It's almost a law of nature. I don't especially want to pay $300 for a pair of sneakers just for the warm fuzzies of knowing they were made in the USofA. Same principle applies to IT.
As for the software engineers here, I don't notice the ethnic Indians offering to work for a whole lot less than others.
IT went from being a black art whose practioners were paid stupid money to a career track job done by millions. I, too, mourn the days when high tech was voodoo and you got paid ridiculous amounts for doing what was, in reality, a very normal job (if one that required a specific set of dance steps). It happens, you move on.
Curry is good.

[OU68]

How did they 'kill' IT for Americans? What could be off-shored and done as well, for less, overseas always can and will be. It's almost a law of nature. I don't especially want to pay $300 for a pair of sneakers just for the warm fuzzies of knowing they were made in the USofA. Same principle applies to IT.
As for the software engineers here, I don't notice the ethnic Indians offering to work for a whole lot less than others.
IT went from being a black art whose practioners were paid stupid money to a career track job done by millions. I, too, mourn the days when high tech was voodoo and you got paid ridiculous amounts for doing what was, in reality, a very normal job (if one that required a specific set of dance steps). It happens, you move on.
Curry is good.

That is true, but what I'm seeing increasingly is one on-shore resource managing an off-shore team - so I guess you're OK with kids working 12 hour shifts in garment factories also, since that's "almost a law of nature"?

[KantoSooner]

I'm okay with whatever their home country rules are....AND what my customers put up with here.

In today's world, you have to be an idiot not to be pretty well informed about work conditions in China (not too terrible) and India (somewhere a bit worse) and Bangladesh (A dickensian nightmare) or Pakistan (worse than Bangladesh) etc. So, let's dispense with the handwringing: the American consumer knows damn good and well the implications of a $5 T-Shirt or a $2 bath towel or a $3 football. And they buy 'em with gay abandon. Now, can those things be produced in the US and sold at those prices? They can not. Can I find a supplier in another country who can get them to me at a third of those prices so that they can be imported and then sold, profitably, at those prices? Yes, yes I can.

Who am I to tell people in another country that they must live up to first world labor practices when they are entering the first wave of industrialization in their countries? Is it fair to tell them that they need to hurdle two hundred years of evolving process before they get to have jobs and stop slogging along gazing at the wrong end of a draft animal?

Returrning to that 'kid' working 12 hour days in the garment factory, what if that kid is the sole source of income for his family? Still want to deny him that job? What if that kid's option is to run around in the street 18-20 hours a day before finding a nice dry piece of cardboard so that he can nestle down for a relaxing sleep on the roof of his family's shanty? Still opposed? In most such kindly 'Traditional' societies, birth control is hard to come by and mouths to feed multiply briskly. Work and pay are regarded a bit more starkly than they are here or in Europe. There are 'Traditional' solutions to this problem, of course. Kids can be sold off as farm labor and can work even longer shifts in healthful rural enviroments such as threshing sheds. Or their own parents can multilate them and then put them on the streets to beg alms. And that, too, is a way out of the exploitative factory world.

So, what do you do? You do your best to not involve yourself in stupidity, like buying from morons who lock the fire escapes or beat their workers. And you get as much work to as many people as possible. And you do that by making your enterprise healthy and as waste-free as you can.

[OU68]

Kanto, I respect your perspective but I'm looking at it from the other side. Sure, that kid may be the only source of income for his family and he does what he has to do to provide food and shelter. My issue is the number of IT workers that are being displaced by off-shore resources. It's the opposite scenario - can a US worker maintain his/her lifestyle at India's rates? And sure, a response is that our lifestyle has become unsustainable in a world market - but I'm not ready to surrender that just yet.

[KantoSooner]

OU68, Here's the deal, you have to compete with world production. If what anyone does here can be done more cheaply (China and India), more efficiently (Japan), with higher quality (Germany) or with lower attendant costs (think of Chinese solar cells and the massive pollution that goes with their fabrication) elsewhere, that's where that activity will go and from whence the world will be supplied.
And to try and place walls around our economy will only result in the weakening of our manufacturing base and is an indirect tax on the population as a whole to support the laziness, bad planning or general unsuitabiity of the industry thus protected. It's unsustainable and morally wrong.
I feel your pain, but would suggest that the choices are really, really stark: we all need to find work that pays us fairly for what we do and does so in the face of the probability of someone in another country trying to take that job away. Honestly, if whatever you, or I, are trying to do for a living can't win considering the costs of distance, culture barriers, exchange rate risks and the like imposed by fate on our foreign competitors, then we are truly in the wrong trades.
It will all come out in the wash, as the saying goes in several more generations. Just as the shift from agriculture to factory work was tremendously disrupting to small scale ag workers during the industrial revolution, so individuals are going to suffer during this shift to a truly global economy. But, in the end, global wages will to some extent equalize (as has been seen in Korea, where people did skut work 40 years ago and are now making $35K per annum type per capita wages; or, in China where the salaries have gone from $300 a year to $4500 a year for factory work) and the violent sloshing around of enterprises will calm down. It won't happen in our lifetimes, but it's inevitable and about all we as individuals can do is to paddle faster and hope to avoid being crushed, look out for the weak as we can in our personal ambit and try not to contribute to bad things happening.
The world is embarked on globalization. It'll be a globalization based on more or less free markets and that is a very, very good thing for the human race. But it's going to be messy and there'll be lots of tragedy along the way.

[OU68]

Yep, it's happened to the garment workers, the steel workers, to some extent to the auto workers, and now to the IT workers - I'm still not sure that I'm OK with the US becoming just "one of the gang". I believe we can be better than most and as good as any.

[okie52]

There are many Americans working abroad...lending their technology and expertise to other countries. The oil industry in particular is one area that Americans outshine the rest of the world. Shouldn't be a big deal if the same thing happens in the US in areas where we haven't focused or don't have the expertise. However, employers (as is true with Americans abroad) should be responsible for the costs of their immigrant employees that they bring to our shores...its true with most Americans abroad and it should also be true here. And it will be true for most highly skilled and highly educated employees...but for the low skilled, poorly educated labor that comes to America their costs will be on the American taxpayer...not the employer.

[KantoSooner]

The highly skilled workers typically come here either as students and then move on to green card status, or they come on special work visas. I forget the precise number of the visa type; as I recall it was an annual thing that had to be renewed. I got one Korean engineer in on those for a couple of years.

I am unaware of any companies that bring in unskilled labor, though maybe some ag operators actually bring in field labor. You'd think they'd just get a foreman to start his own company and let him hire the locally available labor.

[okie52]

H-1B workers (visas) are highly skilled/educated and their visas usually expire when their job is through....or 3-6 years....im not really sure. Supposedly under immigration reform the caps on H-1Bs will be greatly increased.

The illegals are the unskilled work force but the temporary worker permits are supposed to be also greatly increased under immigration reform.

[KantoSooner]

H-1B, that's the one. And as an employer of someone under that status you do bear responsibility for them (within some limits).

[okie52]

Which is as it should be.

[KantoSooner]

No argument from me on that.