The state of morality...

[Soonerjeepman]

ok, for all the folks who think, music, tv shows, etc don't mess with out youth...

this is so sad.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/25/another-teen-suicide-after-alleged-assault-leaves-california-town-asking-tough/?intcmp=obnetwork

[Midtowner]

You think this is the first teenager who ever killed themselves because they were bullied?

You think that didn't happen 50 years ago?

[cleller]

^^ Yeah, why get all worked up?

[Soonerjeepman]

your right mid...thanks for settin me straight...geeze, by the way, sexual assault is bullying? good to know.

[olevetonahill]

your right mid...thanks for settin me straight...geeze, by the way, sexual assault is bullying? good to know.

matlock is a ****in idiot. He lives Off of Daddy.

[SicEmBaylor]

Teenagers are inherently hormonal, erratic, moody, and irrational. I'm sure they've been taking their own lives since the cave dwelling days. It's the nature of being human.

You can blame and subscribe anything you want to that, and I'm sure people just like jeep have done so for thousands of years.

[Soonerjeepman]

it's a number of things...but the societal change doesn't help. So, sic, you explain to me why you think, these 3 boys along with the 2 fball players in Ohio felt the need to sexually assault these girls. Suppose you're of the line of thinking women who get raped wore their dress too short or top too tight...

I guess I read the article and got the questioning of the sexual angle vs teenage suicide. The girl in Ohio didn't commit suicide. People of all ages have been doing that for eons.

[SicEmBaylor]

it's a number of things...but the societal change doesn't help. So, sic, you explain to me why you think, these 3 boys along with the 2 fball players in Ohio felt the need to sexually assault these girls. Suppose you're of the line of thinking women who get raped wore their dress too short or top too tight...
Whaaaaat. Theeeeee. F'k.
Seriously, what the **** is wrong with you? What goes on in your head that translates what I said as, in any way, saying the girl deserved anything that happened to her? Are you ****ing retarded or just desperately searching for a way to twist everything I say into some distorted and perverse version of what I sat at my keyboard typing?

To answer your question, uh...no....the poor girl didn't deserve a damned thing that happened to her -- nothing she did was even remotely her fault. Why did the boys do it? Because there are ****ed up people in this world who do all sorts of insane things. The only people at fault are the people responsible for the act.

My point was, and what I said in my last post, is that teens have been committing suicide since the beginning of mankind. Placing the blame at supposed contemporary societal "ills" as a reason for those boys to be *******s ignores the fact that we've had *******s since the very beginning of mankind as well.

Teens at that age have a micro rather than a macro view of the world. What happened to teh poor girl was horrible, but due to her age the problem was compounded simply because of her age thus leading to the suicide.

[cleller]

Maybe its that some of us have seen first hand that things have changed much over the last couple decades. These types of bullying didn't go on when I was in high school in the late 70s. I also never knew or heard of a juvenile committing suicide.

Even the biggest screw up boys in the school would have hesitated before doing things like what the boys did in the cases mentioned. Even if the idea popped into their drunken brain they would have considered the real possibility of a father or relative undertaking some pay-back.

They'd have realized their parents (plural, most had two) would have been horrified, and non-supportive. Also, had such pay-back come into play, the law and police would have been pretty reserved in their help toward any boys pulling a stunt like this. The local attorneys would have also been been pretty slow to get involved.

People were a little more focused on the big picture, less focused on dismissing disgusting behavior, and arguing technicalities.

[Midtowner]

Times are bad, children no longer obey their parents and everyone is writing a book.

--Cicero

[yermom]

Teenagers are inherently hormonal, erratic, moody, and irrational. I'm sure they've been taking their own lives since the cave dwelling days. It's the nature of being human.

You can blame and subscribe anything you want to that, and I'm sure people just like jeep have done so for thousands of years.

hey, it's worked for thousands of years, why change now?

[cleller]

Just for the record. Teen suicide rates tripled from 1950 to 1990, then leveled off, or dropped until the early 2000's. Since 2003, they've been on a big increase:

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c10690.pdf

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20070906/dramatic-increase-in-teen-suicide

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/06/08/cdc-teen-suicide-attempts-on-rise/

Ia this going to be another case of the inexperienced telling the experienced they don't know what they are talking about?

[KantoSooner]

Back to the beginning: Jeepman, explain the tie between this little horror show and "Music, tv shows, etc"
I can think of some, logically, maybe, but the article didn't give me, at least, that connection.

[badger]

As a (fairly new, but still) parent, I wonder what I would do in a situation like this?

Since I live in a fairly large area with multiple schools, I'd probably offer to transfer to a different district, or a private school, whatever it takes to rule out suicide.

I agree that bullying has always gone on. I would split every school kid into two categories: Those who have been bullied and those who bully. But, sexual assault is NOT bullying and it has NOT always gone on at every school among school kids and should NOT be considered bullying nor acceptable at any time, any age, etc.

[sooneron]

your right mid...thanks for settin me straight...geeze, by the way, sexual assault is bullying? good to know.

The article makes more of this being cyber bullying that sexual assault. Although, little is said about what bullying was done to the girl. My guess is they are saying that it's bullying to pass the pics around via innerwebs. Which, I could see. The ****heads that did this should also get distro of child porn levied against them.

[sooneron]

And I'm still trying to figure out what tv/media has to do with this. I think more of it has to do with kids not fearing repercussions as cleller mentioned. It seems that there is an excuse/diagnosis for everything these days.
I must have missed the drunken gang rape movies/tv shows.

[KantoSooner]

. I think more of it has to do with kids not fearing repercussions as cleller mentioned. .



Papua New Guinea was plagued by 'pack rapes' ten years or so ago. Their solution was brilliantly biblical. Once the perps were captured, they were placed in a cell, tied to chairs. The families of the victim were allowed to designate up to five or so representatives who were allowed ball bats, pipes, rebar, hammers, what have you and given twenty minutes, no consequences. Instances dropped off rapidly.

[picasso]

Social media has created instant gratification.
You are in complete denial if you don't think this has taken bullying to another level.

[FaninAma]

It all comes down to parenting or lack thereof.

The lack if good parenting is greatly facilitated by
societal mores that encourage or foster single parent
homes, divorce and escaping the consequences of our
own decisions.....especially when those decisions involve
the best environments to raise and nuture kids.

[KantoSooner]

Fanin, we've gone round and round on this. Kids obviously do best in homes with the original bio parents (both) who are loving, balanced, well employed and self actualized people. No argument there.
They don't do nearly as well living with Alcohol Dad who likes to beat whoever is handy and Victim Mom as they would with Single Mom on WIC. That, too is beyond argument.
And gubmint's 'facilitation' of single parenthood by providing food aid for mothers escaping such circumstances seems pretty right on to me.

[FirstandGoal]

Ok, so the world is a smaller place than it used to be a few decades ago.
More and more kids are being raised in single parent homes which means there is less supervision.
Because of increased availability of all kinds of media, kids today are exposed to more things than previous generations of kids.

We can argue all day long whether the world is going to hell in a hand basket, but honestly what generation has never genuinely thought that the generation after it is more morally bankrupt?
I can only imagine that somewhere long ago in some cave somebody managed to draw some suggestive pictures on a wall and then the blame was placed there when something bad happened to the clan. This is nothing new.

What will ultimately determine our success is our ability to deal with society as it stands and realize that most humans are born with a basic, universal moral code and that there will always be a certain percentage of the population that deviates from that. Yes, I realize that specific kinds of external stimuli can "warp" some of what is intrinsically known as "right" and "wrong", but I truly don't think that you can create a psychopath where one didn't previously exist.

At the end of the day, I would rather take it upon myself to guide my children into adulthood through the traps and pitfalls of the world we live in so that they are capable of navigating their own path and have the ability to make their own decisions. I also feel like any parent who doesn't take the time to sit down with their kids and have the necessary and "tough" discussions with them about all of the crap that exists in the world is seriously not doing their job. I don't have to go into explicit sexual details, but we talk about sex. We also talk about bullying, suicide and many other tough issues. I am not their friend, I am their parent (and I've done this solo for the greater part of the last 15 years) and the relationships work because I took the time to get to know my kids as people as I was raising them.

Badj, even though you are a relatively new mom, I read your posts and I see that you are a very hands-on parent. First, let me commend you on that. Second, just trust your instincts because I seriously believe that mothers who are dialed in to their kids will almost always make the best decisions concerning their welfare. In my experience (20 and 15yo) good communication trumps any "mistakes" made along the way.

It is a delicate balance to walk that line between supervising/guiding or smothering/overprotecting/ or ignoring/self-denial when it comes to raising our children.

In the end, I would much rather prefer a society where I have to guide them gently to one in which everything is censored.

[olevetonahill]

I see where hes coming from. Hell when I was a Kid we got our Thrills from the newest edition of National Geographic.
Any 10 year old with a smart phone can pull up hardcore Pron 24/7 now adays.
Dayum I wish I was a Kid again.:cocksure:

[diverdog]

It all comes down to parenting or lack thereof.

The lack if good parenting is greatly facilitated by
societal mores that encourage or foster single parent
homes, divorce and escaping the consequences of our
own decisions.....especially when those decisions involve
the best environments to raise and nuture kids.


Boy do I agree with this.

I would add that any parent who allows their kids access to social media is just asking for it. My kids get a basic cell phone and that is it. No Facebook or twitter. Television is limited and if you need to talk to your friends...call them.

Every family that I know who has great kids holds them accountable and makes them responsible.

[badger]

Papua New Guinea was plagued by 'pack rapes' ten years or so ago. Their solution was brilliantly biblical. Once the perps were captured, they were placed in a cell, tied to chairs. The families of the victim were allowed to designate up to five or so representatives who were allowed ball bats, pipes, rebar, hammers, what have you and given twenty minutes, no consequences. Instances dropped off rapidly.

That's pretty severe, even for rape.

I do recall a case a few years ago where some dumb kids robbed and then got scared and shot the homeowner when confronted. One reportedly told police to send him to juvie. The officer then reportedly responded that murder was not something that you get sent to juvie for, but "big boy prison"

The dumb kid reportedly bawled his eyes out at this revelation.

[olevetonahill]

That's pretty severe, even for rape.

I do recall a case a few years ago where some dumb kids robbed and then got scared and shot the homeowner when confronted. One reportedly told police to send him to juvie. The officer then reportedly responded that murder was not something that you get sent to juvie for, but "big boy prison"

The dumb kid reportedly bawled his eyes out at this revelation.

Yea they shouldnt let a rape victims family beat em with that carp. They should give the Victim a Knife and tie the creep down neked and tell her she can cut off ONE thing.

[diverdog]

Papua New Guinea was plagued by 'pack rapes' ten years or so ago. Their solution was brilliantly biblical. Once the perps were captured, they were placed in a cell, tied to chairs. The families of the victim were allowed to designate up to five or so representatives who were allowed ball bats, pipes, rebar, hammers, what have you and given twenty minutes, no consequences. Instances dropped off rapidly.

Probably tenderizing him before eating the bastard.

[8timechamps]

As a (fairly new, but still) parent, I wonder what I would do in a situation like this?

Since I live in a fairly large area with multiple schools, I'd probably offer to transfer to a different district, or a private school, whatever it takes to rule out suicide.

I agree that bullying has always gone on. I would split every school kid into two categories: Those who have been bullied and those who bully. But, sexual assault is NOT bullying and it has NOT always gone on at every school among school kids and should NOT be considered bullying nor acceptable at any time, any age, etc.

Well, first of all, you wouldn't fall for the "I'm staying at (insert friend)'s house" while really going to a party trick. While I don't know you outside of Soonerfans, what I do know tells me that you and NP are going to be better parents than that.

That's what this comes down to, parenting. I have a 18 year old son that just graduated (and a 13 year old son). My 18 year old lived most of the time with his mom, and I still knew 99% of what he was doing, where he was, who he hung out with. Did he go to parties? Yep, and I knew where he was and who he was with. He was raised to be responsible and accountable, and he never failed to be that way throughout high school. He also loves action movies (rater R) and violent video games (Call of Duty, etc.). He graduated in the top half of his class and is heading to college in the fall.

We, as a society, continue to blame things other than what is at the root of these issues. In almost every case like this (or the school shootings), it's mental health. There is also a big parenting component to this.

This particular issue has very little to do with bullying, and even less to do with video games/movies.

[8timechamps]

Boy do I agree with this.

I would add that any parent who allows their kids access to social media is just asking for it. My kids get a basic cell phone and that is it. No Facebook or twitter. Television is limited and if you need to talk to your friends...call them.

Every family that I know who has great kids holds them accountable and makes them responsible.

Again, it comes back to parenting. Both of my boys have access to social media, and they also realize that they are held accountable for anything that is posted. I've never had an issue with anything to do with social media, in fact, it's been the opposite. My kids are able to communicate with family members that live out of state or friends that may have moved. Back to parenting, we (my ex and I) have pretty strict guidelines about the time spent on social media and they both know that we regularly check what they are doing online.

Social media is here to stay, and in my opinion, banning your kids from social media only drives them to want it more. There is nothing inherently "evil" about social media, and the key to allowing kids access is parenting.

I will add that neither of my kids had FB accounts until they turned 13.

[Soonerjeepman]

Whaaaaat. Theeeeee. F'k.
Seriously, what the **** is wrong with you? What goes on in your head that translates what I said as, in any way, saying the girl deserved anything that happened to her? Are you ****ing retarded or just desperately searching for a way to twist everything I say into some distorted and perverse version of what I sat at my keyboard typing?

To answer your question, uh...no....the poor girl didn't deserve a damned thing that happened to her -- nothing she did was even remotely her fault. Why did the boys do it? Because there are ****ed up people in this world who do all sorts of insane things. The only people at fault are the people responsible for the act.

My point was, and what I said in my last post, is that teens have been committing suicide since the beginning of mankind. Placing the blame at supposed contemporary societal "ills" as a reason for those boys to be *******s ignores the fact that we've had *******s since the very beginning of mankind as well.

Teens at that age have a micro rather than a macro view of the world. What happened to teh poor girl was horrible, but due to her age the problem was compounded simply because of her age thus leading to the suicide.

wow a little pumped there, no, I really didn't think that..I'm hoping that 99% of guys don't think that (obviously the sick ones do).

AGAIN, I did NOT focus on the suicide...(see your bolded part above)..my focus was on the fact these 3 dip****s did sexual assualt, and why that seems to be more prevalent within the youth. The number one issue is parenting. I could care less what you think but I do think the openness of sex and violence does have an influence. I'm not for a bunch of rules, but unfortunately those who produce these programs/songs/etc don't listen to regular folks.

We have what, 100 regular posters here, and most (99%) probably are great parents and guide their kids. Unfortunately that is a very small number. I know for a fact that at least 50% of the kids I teach watch, listen and play whatever they want. It's not just a low socioeconomic problem, the rich kids have no supervision or guidance as well.

Thanks for the lesson in teenage psychology...I've only been teaching for 23 yrs.

[diverdog]

Again, it comes back to parenting. Both of my boys have access to social media, and they also realize that they are held accountable for anything that is posted. I've never had an issue with anything to do with social media, in fact, it's been the opposite. My kids are able to communicate with family members that live out of state or friends that may have moved. Back to parenting, we (my ex and I) have pretty strict guidelines about the time spent on social media and they both know that we regularly check what they are doing online.

Social media is here to stay, and in my opinion, banning your kids from social media only drives them to want it more. There is nothing inherently "evil" about social media, and the key to allowing kids access is parenting.

I will add that neither of my kids had FB accounts until they turned 13.

I think 13 is way to young for social media. That is my personal opinion.

They have never expressed an interest in FB and I think it is because they spend a ton of time outside.

[ouwasp]

Another teacher here...28 yrs...parenting, or the lack thereof, is at the heart of so many issues with today's kids. Permissiveness is so pervasive in so many aspects of their lives. It seems that very few traditional boundaries are set and/or enforced the older the students get.

A couple months ago I had a student's mother call me. We've known each other for years, so she felt comfortable in confiding in me. Her son was receiving very explicit texts from his girlfriend. This stunned me, as the girl in question is one of the least-likely-to-expect this sort of behavior. But, her parents don't ever check her phone.

The mom was trying to decide what course to take. I was just her sounding board. She finally decided to tell her son that if those sorts of messages continued, parents would be notified. She just wanted me to serve as her eyes at school, to see if I observed anything out of line. (Which I did not.)

So in this one little incident you have an example of a parent not being intimidated by technology and actually using it to her advantage (another part of the story). And the other set of parents trusting in their outwardly angelic little darling.

Apply these parents to the tragic story in the OP, and you have a boy that would most likely NOT be attending said party, and a girl that in many ways parallels the victim. The perps need to be tried, and if convicted, thrown in the "Big Boy Prison".

[cleller]

Another teacher here...28 yrs...parenting, or the lack thereof, is at the heart of so many issues with today's kids. Permissiveness is so pervasive in so many aspects of their lives. It seems that very few traditional boundaries are set and/or enforced....

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. Its been a very slow progression, but many parents seem to feel like that are not allowed oversight or discipline in some areas. Too uncool. Others simply lack the resolve, and let the kids run the show.

I am very grateful there are still some teachers with the inner toughness to try and keep kids pointed in the right direction. 28 years. (23 for Jeepman) I could not do it.

[sooneron]

More and more kids are being raised in single parent homes which means there is less supervision.


The least supervised kid that I knew growing up had a two parent household.

It should also be noted that a lot of these cases (Steubenville OH as well) have perps from "good homes" that have a sense of entitlement.

[badger]

My 18 year old lived most of the time with his mom, and I still knew 99% of what he was doing, where he was, who he hung out with. Did he go to parties? Yep, and I knew where he was and who he was with. He was raised to be responsible and accountable, and he never failed to be that way throughout high school.

The best idea I've heard out there is making your kid keep a running list of phone numbers for everywhere they plan to go and update it often. The threat of constant nagging is good enforcement :)


I think 13 is way to young for social media. That is my personal opinion.

From everything I've seen and read, having a personal computer that is not readily accessible to parents' eyes is a bad idea, regardless of the kid's age.

[sooneron]

My kids had better be prepared for my perusing of whatever their device will be in the years ahead.