Dear Catholic People

[SicEmBaylor]

As much as I detest the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general, I'm pretty impressed thus far with Pope Francis. You people should be proud.

[Soonerjeepman]

I'll bite...
First, as a Catholic, I could less what anyone who isn't Catholic or even who has left the church thinks about my faith, my church. Heard it all, positive and negative as well, so I put everything in one box, file 13.

I suppose, as you have professed your detest in the faith, people and church, it's "good" you're "impressed". Good for you.

We've been around for a long time and will be around for a long time.

[olevetonahill]

Aint that kinda like sayin ya think that **** sammich has a Nice crust on the bread?

[SicEmBaylor]

I'll bite...
First, as a Catholic, I could less what anyone who isn't Catholic or even who has left the church thinks about my faith, my church. Heard it all, positive and negative as well, so I put everything in one box, file 13.

I suppose, as you have professed your detest in the faith, people and church, it's "good" you're "impressed". Good for you.

We've been around for a long time and will be around for a long time.
I would have been more interested in your own opinions/impressions of Pope Francis as opposed to your opinion of my opinion.

[Soonerjeepman]

ah, I'll get back with you, headed to Mass~

[Soonerjeepman]

guess I should ask you...what makes you approve of him?

[SicEmBaylor]

guess I should ask you...what makes you approve of him?
I think it's in bad taste and morally repugnant for men who are supposed to serve God by serving others end up living in opulence that makes Bill Gates look like a hobo. This doesn't just apply to the Catholic Church -- my opinion of Mega Church ministers is the same...but hte Catholic Church is the biggest, richest, and oldest of them all.

Pope Francis seems to be shunning a lot of that opulence and focusing instead on truly serving the poor. I approve of that. I also approve of what he said about non-Christians being good people and the goodness of those people being adequate to reach heaven. That's closely in line with my own views of God as a Deist.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

ah, I'll get back with you, headed to Mass~Boston? Western Mass?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I think it's in bad taste and morally repugnant for men who are supposed to serve God by serving others end up living in opulence that makes Bill Gates look like a hobo. This doesn't just apply to the Catholic Church -- my opinion of Mega Church ministers is the same...but hte Catholic Church is the biggest, richest, and oldest of them all.

Pope Francis seems to be shunning a lot of that opulence and focusing instead on truly serving the poor. I approve of that. I also approve of what he said about non-Christians being good people and the goodness of those people being adequate to reach heaven. That's closely in line with my own views of God as a Deist.

My feelings about him are similar to what Sic em has stated and for the same reasons.

My wife is practicing Catholic but I am not - practicing or otherwise. In fact, I got a letter from Pope Francis today saying it's ok with him if we marry in the Catholic Church. Maria has not been permitted to take communion because our marriage was a civil ceremony - not recognized by the Church. So I petitioned the Pope explaining I want to help Maria more fully practice her faith.

[SCOUT]

As much as I detest the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general, I'm pretty impressed thus far with Pope Francis. You people should be proud.

You do see why a Catholic wouldn't take your post as a general topic starter, right? I.E. While all sons of the confederacy are racist pieces of ****, I am glad they cleaned up the historical monument.

[SicEmBaylor]

You do see why a Catholic wouldn't take your post as a general topic starter, right? I.E. While all sons of the confederacy are racist pieces of ****, I am glad they cleaned up the historical monument.

Well, the difference here is that I was judging the religious institution not individual members; whereas, in your analogy, you target individuals. But, yes, I see your point.

[SCOUT]

I knew you would. I am not Catholic, but I can see why it would have stung. That being said, I think the current Pope is doing a lot of great things.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

As much as I detest the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general, I'm pretty impressed thus far with Pope Francis. You people should be proud.

What do you mean, YOU PEOPLE?

[olevetonahill]

Aint that kinda like sayin ya think that **** sammich has a Nice crust on the bread?


You do see why a Catholic wouldn't take your post as a general topic starter, right? I.E. While all sons of the confederacy are racist pieces of ****, I am glad they cleaned up the historical monument.

Aint that what I said? :topsy_turvy:

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

the world of pugnacity

[SoonerorLater]

I think it's in bad taste and morally repugnant for men who are supposed to serve God by serving others end up living in opulence that makes Bill Gates look like a hobo. This doesn't just apply to the Catholic Church -- my opinion of Mega Church ministers is the same...but hte Catholic Church is the biggest, richest, and oldest of them all.

Pope Francis seems to be shunning a lot of that opulence and focusing instead on truly serving the poor. I approve of that. I also approve of what he said about non-Christians being good people and the goodness of those people being adequate to reach heaven. That's closely in line with my own views of God as a Deist.

Then IF that is true he is teaching false doctrine. No matter what the Pope or any other preacher, televangelist, soothsayer, etc. says people ARE NOT GOOD. Nothing could be more contradictory in a biblical sense.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Luke 18:19

[SicEmBaylor]

Then IF that is true he is teaching false doctrine. No matter what the Pope or any other preacher, televangelist, soothsayer, etc. says people ARE NOT GOOD. Nothing could be more contradictory in a biblical sense.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Luke 18:19

For Christ's sake. Okay, allow me reword what I say in such a way that perhaps its more complaint with the uh "good" book.

Some people are less inherently evil than other people and those people who may be atheist and are a lot less inherently evil will still enjoy a positive afterlife. Better?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

[olevetonahill]

Then IF that is true he is teaching false doctrine. No matter what the Pope or any other preacher, televangelist, soothsayer, etc. says people ARE NOT GOOD. Nothing could be more contradictory in a biblical sense.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Luke 18:19

If the Pope sayin folk can get to heaven By being GOOD then hes preachin wrong also.

[SicEmBaylor]

If the Pope sayin folk can get to heaven By being GOOD then hes preachin wrong also.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

[rock on sooner]

I think it's in bad taste and morally repugnant for men who are supposed to serve God by serving others end up living in opulence that makes Bill Gates look like a hobo. This doesn't just apply to the Catholic Church -- my opinion of Mega Church ministers is the same...but hte Catholic Church is the biggest, richest, and oldest of them all.

Pope Francis seems to be shunning a lot of that opulence and focusing instead on truly serving the poor. I approve of that. I also approve of what he said about non-Christians being good people and the goodness of those people being adequate to reach heaven. That's closely in line with my own views of God as a Deist.

I think the church (all of em) oughta get taxed, then they
wunt hav so much $$$...:biggrin:

[SicEmBaylor]

I think the church (all of em) oughta get taxed, then they
wunt hav so much $$$...:biggrin:

No. Transferring that cash from private to government coffers is even worse. The only thing in this world that is worse than organized religion is government.

[rock on sooner]

No. Transferring that cash from private to government coffers is even worse. The only thing in this world that is worse than organized religion is government.

Gotcha...:biggrin::biggrin:

[SanJoaquinSooner]

If the Pope sayin folk can get to heaven By being GOOD then hes preachin wrong also.


Hey, God changed the rules once, and he can do it again if he wants!

[olevetonahill]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

I aint gettin into a Long discussion on this . But Hes wrong or You are wrong in what you think he said.

The Purpose of Being a Christian is to get to heaven

[olevetonahill]

Hey, God changed the rules once, and he can do it again if he wants!

****in Pope aint God even if he thinks he is.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

****in Pope aint God even if he thinks he is.

If God wants the Pope to be his press secretary, it's his choice not yours.

[olevetonahill]

If God wants the Pope to be his press secretary, it's his choice not yours.

So the Mormons is on the right track also?

[SicEmBaylor]

In order to believe that only Christians go to heaven then you have to believe that God is a psychopathic megalomanic which is inconsistent with their belief that God is a benevolent forgiving figure. So, he'll forgive you but only if you worship him in exactly the way he says he wants you to...or actually it'd be more fair to say worship him in the way that people here on Earth say that he wants you to worship him.

In any case, I think Pope Francis is correct, but I go much further and believe everyone goes to heaven and has an after-life...even the worst amongst us. I also don't believe in a literal hell, but I believe we are tormented to varying degrees by our bad deeds while on Earth when in the after-life...some will be more tormented than others.

You'll never ever convince me that a good and morally upstanding Jewish/Atheist/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/etc.etc. family are all going to hell because they don't happen to be Christian. That entire line of belief was created by the leaders of the Church who wanted to promote and increase Christianity for their own benefit and the best way of doing that is by convincing other people that they are doomed to hell for all eternity unless they become Christian.

[SicEmBaylor]

I aint gettin into a Long discussion on this . But Hes wrong or You are wrong in what you think he said.

The Purpose of Being a Christian is to get to heaven

Essentially what he said is that scripture says Jesus died for the sins of all mankind...not just Christians (since Christianity at that point didn't even exist).

[SoonerorLater]

For Christ's sake. Okay, allow me reword what I say in such a way that perhaps its more complaint with the uh "good" book.

Some people are less inherently evil than other people and those people who may be atheist and are a lot less inherently evil will still enjoy a positive afterlife. Better?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Actually no it isn't. This isn't a small point or just a matter of parsing words. The very idea that somehow atheists will be rewarded with a place in Heaven is antithetical to all teachings in the Bible. The very idea that because one person appears to be less evil than another person because they do some good deeds they will be rewarded with a seat in the Kingdom of God is just flat out false. There isn't any grading on the curve here.

This is all part of a New Age religious marketing program to drive up church membership by being all-inclusive. These are the people the Bible has warned us about. The Bible also tells us people will buy into the lies. It's all there but a lot of people just don't want to believe it.

-----
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Corinthians 11:13-15

[SicEmBaylor]

Actually no it isn't. This isn't a small point or just a matter of parsing words. The very idea that somehow atheists will be rewarded with a place in Heaven is antithetical to all teachings in the Bible. The very idea that because one person appears to be less evil than another person because they do some good deeds they will be rewarded with a seat in the Kingdom of God is just flat out false. There isn't any grading on the curve here.

This is all part of a New Age religious marketing program to drive up church membership by being all-inclusive. These are the people the Bible has warned us about. The Bible also tells us people will buy into the lies. It's all there but a lot of people just don't want to believe it.

-----
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Corinthians 11:13-15

The problem you are having here is that you're using Bible scripture to argue a point to someone who doesn't believe in Bible scripture. I could spend the next week writing my own version of the Bible, but that doesn't make it any more valid evidence then does your version of the Bible.

The Bible is not evidence or proof of anything at all. It's just a book written by man. Your interpretation of the Bible has no relevance whatsoever. In fact, there is no such thing as valid interpretations or legitimate evidence anywhere in religion because religion by its very nature is based on faith.

I have faith that my interpretation that God is a loving figure who does not discriminate based upon religious orthodoxy is no more reasonable or wrong than your faith that someone has to believe in Christianity. In the end, you believe what you want to believe. I think you're wrong -- you think I'm wrong, but you can't just whip out the Bible and say "I'm right!"

As for "new age" this isn't "new age" at all -- my own religious beliefs (Deism) have been around since the European enlightenment which is hardly "new age."

In fact, I would consider churches like "Guts Church" and that kind of contemporary crap to be more "new age" than what I believe.

[olevetonahill]

Essentially what he said is that scripture says Jesus died for the sins of all mankind...not just Christians (since Christianity at that point didn't even exist).

well no ****. But to get there Ya have to believe that Christ died for YOU. thats what makes ya a Christian. See Christ IAN ya see how that fits together?

Like I said I aint gonna argue religion , peeps gonna believe what they gonna believe. Personally I dont give a rats *** what The Pope, You or Little miss ****in muffet believe.
Any more Im pretty much convinced thats Its Just turn out the lights the partys over .

[SoonerorLater]

The problem you are having here is that you're using Bible scripture to argue a point to someone who doesn't believe in Bible scripture. I could spend the next week writing my own version of the Bible, but that doesn't make it any more valid evidence then does your version of the Bible.

The Bible is not evidence or proof of anything at all. It's just a book written by man. Your interpretation of the Bible has no relevance whatsoever. In fact, there is no such thing as valid interpretations or legitimate evidence anywhere in religion because religion by its very nature is based on faith.

I have faith that my interpretation that God is a loving figure who does not discriminate based upon religious orthodoxy is no more reasonable or wrong than your faith that someone has to believe in Christianity. In the end, you believe what you want to believe. I think you're wrong -- you think I'm wrong, but you can't just whip out the Bible and say "I'm right!"

As for "new age" this isn't "new age" at all -- my own religious beliefs (Deism) have been around since the European enlightenment which is hardly "new age."

In fact, I would consider churches like "Guts Church" and that kind of contemporary crap to be more "new age" than what I believe.

I guess we must be talking past each other on this. If you are a deist then yes, the Bible really wouldn't necessarily hold any special meaning for you. It should however to the Pope. So the idea that atheists go to Heaven is just nonsensical from a Christian perspective.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I guess we must be talking past each other on this. If you are a deist then yes, the Bible really wouldn't necessarily hold any special meaning for you. It should however to the Pope. So the idea that atheists go to Heaven is just nonsensical from a Christian perspective.

Do you think Jews who do not convert to Christianity can go to heaven?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So the Mormons is on the right track also?

They're good people aren't they?

[olevetonahill]

Do you think Jews who do not convert to Christianity can go to heaven?

Only if they live under the Old Mosaic Law. and keep all the commandments, they are not under grace but under Law. Jesus came to fulfill the Law

[SicEmBaylor]

I guess we must be talking past each other on this. If you are a deist then yes, the Bible really wouldn't necessarily hold any special meaning for you. It should however to the Pope. So the idea that atheists go to Heaven is just nonsensical from a Christian perspective.

I'm not sure he was saying that, precisely. I think he was merely pointing out that Jesus died for the sins of all of humanity not just a select few and that even atheists can be good decent people (which is so obviously true that I don't understand how you can argue with it).

I'm not up on Catholic theology (or any theology for that matter), so there may be a line of reasoning here I'm totally unfamiliar with. However, it's difficult for me to reconcile the theory that Jesus both died for the sins of all of humanity and the theory (as Vet alluded to) that only Christains can go to heaven. It has to be one or the other, right? Either Jesus died for all of humanity or he died for the sins of what would later become Christians.

The Bible says, specifically, that salvation goes through Christ...right? But is that salvation through Christ the result of believing in Christ/God or merely saying (as the Pope seems to indicate) that salvation is a result of the act?

This is why I hate organized religion. You can bang your head against the wall arguing theology that was crafted by men with their own inherent biases, beliefs, and interests. At the end of the day, quibbling over theology is a pretty useless exercise. It accomplishes absolutely nothing and gets nobody anywhere nearer the truth.

[olevetonahill]

They're good people aren't they?

:watermelon:

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I think the church (all of em) oughta get taxed, then they
wunt hav so much $$$...:biggrin:That's right, donate to your church so you can feed the Great Sow in Washington even more than with just the money they take. Makes great sense, to you guys.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

In order to believe that only Christians go to heaven then you have to believe that God is a psychopathic megalomanic which is inconsistent with their belief that God is a benevolent forgiving figure. So, he'll forgive you but only if you worship him in exactly the way he says he wants you to...or actually it'd be more fair to say worship him in the way that people here on Earth say that he wants you to worship him.

In any case, I think Pope Francis is correct, but I go much further and believe everyone goes to heaven and has an after-life...even the worst amongst us. I also don't believe in a literal hell, but I believe we are tormented to varying degrees by our bad deeds while on Earth when in the after-life...some will be more tormented than others.

How does one qualify for appointment as an After-Life Tormentor?

[olevetonahill]

I'm not sure he was saying that, precisely. I think he was merely pointing out that Jesus died for the sins of all of humanity not just a select few and that even atheists can be good decent people (which is so obviously true that I don't understand how you can argue with it).


I'm not up on Catholic theology (or any theology for that matter), so there may be a line of reasoning here I'm totally unfamiliar with. However, it's difficult for me to reconcile the theory that Jesus both died for the sins of all of humanity and the theory (as Vet alluded to) that only Christains can go to heaven. It has to be one or the other, right? Either Jesus died for all of humanity or he died for the sins of what would later become Christians.

The Bible says, specifically, that salvation goes through Christ...right? But is that salvation through Christ the result of believing in Christ/God or merely saying (as the Pope seems to indicate) that salvation is a result of the act?

This is why I hate organized religion. You can bang your head against the wall arguing theology that was crafted by men with their own inherent biases, beliefs, and interests. At the end of the day, quibbling over theology is a pretty useless exercise. It accomplishes absolutely nothing and gets nobody anywhere nearer the truth.

I simply stated what the Bible says. You Must accept the sacrifice that Jesus gave or ya gonna go to hell. its that simple. The Bible as we know it consists of the Old testament and the New testament. The Old explains the beginnings and the Law of God that He handed down to Mose's on the Mountain . Jesus came to be the Perfect sacrifice that we might find God thru him.

You Have to accept Jesus( the Sacrifice he gave) to ever enter into heaven. Its a Free gift but you have to accept it. If ya cant understand that then i dont know what else to say to you.
Yo u have already stated you dont believe so why are we even discussing this?

[SicEmBaylor]

You Have to accept Jesus( the Sacrifice he gave) to ever enter into heaven. Its a Free gift but you have to accept it. If ya cant understand that then i dont know what else to say to you.
Yo u have already stated you dont believe so why are we even discussing this?

I understand that point of view perfectly. What I'm trying to discuss here is how that jives with what Pope Francis indicated which is that the scripture says that Jesus died for all of mankind. Now, all of mankind would be everyone of any religion -- that being the case, if one had to accept the sacrifice of Jesus then that would make them a Christian which is inconsistent with Pope Francis' comment.

That's what we're discussing. Either discuss it or don't. :shrug:

[olevetonahill]

I understand that point of view perfectly. What I'm trying to discuss here is how that jives with what Pope Francis indicated which is that the scripture says that Jesus died for all of mankind. Now, all of mankind would be everyone of any religion -- that being the case, if one had to accept the sacrifice of Jesus then that would make them a Christian which is inconsistent with Pope Francis' comment.

That's what we're discussing. Either discuss it or don't. :shrug:

Whats to discuss , I done said Either You misunderstood what the pope said OR the Pope said soome wrong ****. Its that ****in simple
Yes Jesus died for All of mankind. But the only way to get into heaven is THRU BELIEVING in him.

[Soonerjeepman]

Whats to discuss , I done said Either You misunderstood what the pope said OR the Pope said soome wrong ****. Its that ****in simple
Yes Jesus died for All of mankind. But the only way to get into heaven is THRU BELIEVING in him.

this..

on top, from one of your earlier comments sic, as a raised Catholic for 48 yrs, private and public schools, I've NEVER been taught ONLY Catholics get to heaven..just fyi.

[olevetonahill]

this..

on top, from one of your earlier comments sic, as a raised Catholic for 48 yrs, private and public schools, I've NEVER been taught ONLY Catholics get to heaven..just fyi.

But according to the Bible Jesus said " No man cometh to the Father except thru Me"

Works with out Faith are dead.

[SicEmBaylor]

this..

on top, from one of your earlier comments sic, as a raised Catholic for 48 yrs, private and public schools, I've NEVER been taught ONLY Catholics get to heaven..just fyi.

I never said "only Catholics" -- I said "only Christians."

I know Catholics don't teach that.

[SoonerorLater]

I'm not sure he was saying that, precisely. I think he was merely pointing out that Jesus died for the sins of all of humanity not just a select few and that even atheists can be good decent people (which is so obviously true that I don't understand how you can argue with it).

I'm not up on Catholic theology (or any theology for that matter), so there may be a line of reasoning here I'm totally unfamiliar with. However, it's difficult for me to reconcile the theory that Jesus both died for the sins of all of humanity and the theory (as Vet alluded to) that only Christains can go to heaven. It has to be one or the other, right? Either Jesus died for all of humanity or he died for the sins of what would later become Christians.

The Bible says, specifically, that salvation goes through Christ...right? But is that salvation through Christ the result of believing in Christ/God or merely saying (as the Pope seems to indicate) that salvation is a result of the act?

This is why I hate organized religion. You can bang your head against the wall arguing theology that was crafted by men with their own inherent biases, beliefs, and interests. At the end of the day, quibbling over theology is a pretty useless exercise. It accomplishes absolutely nothing and gets nobody anywhere nearer the truth.

I'm not sure why people make all of this a lot more complicated then it is. Yes Jesus died for the sins of mankind but his death on the cross isn't a one way act to salvation of each individual.
----------
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast". Ephesians 2:8-9

God tells us right here that FAITH is a component of salvation.

And no atheists aren't good people. I am not good. You are not good. Olevet as you mentioned is not good either. None of us are good. We are sinful. Whether we are a little sinful or a lot sinful is a specious argument. Any sin makes us unfit for God.

--------------
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God : Romans 3:23


That's every last one of us from Hitler to Mother Teresa. No exceptions

Either people believe in the Holy Trinity or they don't but clouding salvation through Jesus with secular concepts as to what is considered good is not sound from a scriptural perspective.

[olevetonahill]

hey, Take that back. Im Pretty Dayum special and I know Im good.

[SoonerorLater]

Do you think Jews who do not convert to Christianity can go to heaven?

The plan is the same for Jews as it is every other human being on the planet

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. :1 Timothy 2:5-6

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The plan is the same for Jews as it is every other human being on the planet

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. :1 Timothy 2:5-6

I'll take that as a no.

[diverdog]

Sic em:

I have responded to three of your post this morning and I hope you do not think I am picking on you.

Over the last 7-8 years I was pretty much driven out of the Catholic Church. The last Pope IMHO was a criminal and should have never been allowed to lead our church. He covered up the child sex abuse cases and he was entrenched in the pageantry of being the Pope. The best thing he did was to step aside and make room for a better man.

I guess since I have left of center leanings a Pope like Francis appeals to me. He is a man of the people and I think he revitalizes the church. Francis has the ability to be great one. His work should be with the poor and the young and innocent. My only regret is that he is not 50. The world needs a man like Pope Francis who can reach across cultures and make connections. I am hoping the church continues to make progress on making amends with Jews and Muslims. My expectations are very high for him and I hope he does not let us down. So far I give him a big thumbs up?

[diverdog]

But according to the Bible Jesus said " No man cometh to the Father except thru Me"

Works with out Faith are dead.

What does "thru me" mean?

[badger]

I'm not gonna common on the first three pages of the thread at this time, but I also find the current Pope to be a good ambassador for Catholics.

If it matters, I grew up and was confirmed in a Lutheran church in Wisconsin and currently attend an Episcopal church in Tulsa.

[Midtowner]

I'm in the same boat as DD. I kind of fell away from the Church when Benedict, a POS criminal, was installed as Pope. It was readily apparent that petty internal politics beat out the Holy Spirit in his appointment. To learn that Francis was one of the top vote getters that time 'round as well is insulting. It tells me how broken an institution the Church is/was.

As far as this salvation by faith alone business and having to accept Jesus Christ, etc., the Church has vacillated away from that bit of dogma. Modernity has changed the Church in a lot of ways. 50 or so years ago, it was taught that an infant who died prior to baptism wouldn't go to Heaven. We've moved on from that.

I think that's what attracts me to the Catholic Church. While there are still quite a few Catholics who believe in silly things like 7 day/young Earth creation, Catholicism also embraces a more scholarly, scientific and philosophical approach to the divine, and really always has. Catholicism has produced some of the great classical philosophers and thinkers--St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Anthony, etc. It has also fought some of the great scientists, e.g. Galileo, but did eventually admit to error. It's a Church with quite a bit of experience at being wrong and quite experienced at being on the wrong side of history in so many areas (and is again today with the gay rights issues, contraception, etc.)

I'm sort of a lapsed Catholic at this point, but once I have kids, I'll probably go back, since that's what I had to promise the priest to be married to an atheist in the Catholic Church, so long as we maintain the current coarse.

[olevetonahill]

Kevin you are one weird sombitch.

[Midtowner]

I won't deny it.

[olevetonahill]

I won't deny it.

Honesty from you at last :applause:

[badger]

I'm sort of a lapsed Catholic at this point, but once I have kids, I'll probably go back, since that's what I had to promise the priest to be married to an atheist in the Catholic Church, so long as we maintain the current coarse.

I have a relative that married a Catholic. He apparently had to attend Catholic lessons up till the marriage to get married in a Catholic church (her wishes). I don't think he ever went back (he also was raised Lutheran) but I know their kids attended Catholic church with mom.

I have heard some funny stories about future spouse Catholic lessons... it sounds like there's increased emphasis for the current Catholic, and a lot of non-pressure for the non-Catholic. It's probably wisest :)

[SoonerStormchaser]

The Anglican Church welcomes you...we have divorce, and the head of our church is a ROYAL pain in the *** (the Queen).

[SicEmBaylor]

Sic em:

I have responded to three of your post this morning and I hope you do not think I am picking on you.

Over the last 7-8 years I was pretty much driven out of the Catholic Church. The last Pope IMHO was a criminal and should have never been allowed to lead our church. He covered up the child sex abuse cases and he was entrenched in the pageantry of being the Pope. The best thing he did was to step aside and make room for a better man.

I guess since I have left of center leanings a Pope like Francis appeals to me. He is a man of the people and I think he revitalizes the church. Francis has the ability to be great one. His work should be with the poor and the young and innocent. My only regret is that he is not 50. The world needs a man like Pope Francis who can reach across cultures and make connections. I am hoping the church continues to make progress on making amends with Jews and Muslims. My expectations are very high for him and I hope he does not let us down. So far I give him a big thumbs up?

Clearly I've always been liberal in my religion as well. I believe God gifted humanity with the ability to reason, free will, and ultimately the power to decide our own course of action and our own fate. I believe we were made in God's image; therefore, humanity is inherently Godly and the purpose of religious life is to seek to understand how the world and the universe works so that we can more clearly understand God.

My pesonal belief is that God expects us to behave in certain ways but certainly does not intervene or manipulate our world in any way. Why should he? If he made us in his image and we are, therefore, inherently God-like then we are able to do God's bidding as individuals here on Earth. Namely that means helping our fellow man and living decent respectable lives. God doesn't need to perform "miracles" on Earth when we as humans are fully capable of performing them ourselves for others.

For this reason, I don't think God gives a damn about what religion we happen to belong to, who we choose to love, how much money we give to the church, how often we go, etc. etc. What interests God is doing his work on Earth (a task I fall well short of) and it doesn't take a Christian to do that.

Pope Francis seems to touch on that to some degree with his statements. I truly believe he's attempting to acknowledge the fact that non-Christians are capable of doing God's work on Earth whether they acknowledge God or not.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/sanjoaquinsooner/freedom_zps067f887c.jpg

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I'm a converted Catholic but I don't know if I'm one of "you people" that should be proud of the Pope. I didn't become Catholic because of the Pope or the Church hierarchy. In fact, if the Church hierarchy had been one of the determining factors I certainly would not be Catholic.

That being said, I do like what I've seen from this Pope. I hope his humility is an example for future Popes and the Church as a whole. What he said about other faiths getting to heaven is consistent with Church doctrine. Since I converted a few years back, I basically read the entire catechism during RCIA classes. A lot of people don't know that that the Church is very tolerant of other religions and toward science as well, just as Mid stated.

[diverdog]

I understand that point of view perfectly. What I'm trying to discuss here is how that jives with what Pope Francis indicated which is that the scripture says that Jesus died for all of mankind. Now, all of mankind would be everyone of any religion -- that being the case, if one had to accept the sacrifice of Jesus then that would make them a Christian which is inconsistent with Pope Francis' comment.

That's what we're discussing. Either discuss it or don't. :shrug:

Here you go:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html



My upbringing in the church is very much in line with Pope Francis's homily. I know that a lot of people will have problems with this teaching.

[TAFBSooner]

The problem you are having here is that you're using Bible scripture to argue a point to someone who doesn't believe in Bible scripture. I could spend the next week writing my own version of the Bible, but that doesn't make it any more valid evidence then does your version of the Bible.

The Bible is not evidence or proof of anything at all. It's just a book written by man. Your interpretation of the Bible has no relevance whatsoever. In fact, there is no such thing as valid interpretations or legitimate evidence anywhere in religion because religion by its very nature is based on faith.

I have faith that my interpretation that God is a loving figure who does not discriminate based upon religious orthodoxy is no more reasonable or wrong than your faith that someone has to believe in Christianity. In the end, you believe what you want to believe. I think you're wrong -- you think I'm wrong, but you can't just whip out the Bible and say "I'm right!"

As for "new age" this isn't "new age" at all -- my own religious beliefs (Deism) have been around since the European enlightenment which is hardly "new age."
. . .

I'm curious about Deism. Were there ever Deist congregations? (Are there now? Have they existed continuously since the time of our Founding Fathers, many of whom were Deists?)

Do Deists base their beliefs on authority outside themselves (such as Christians do with the Bible), or do they come to Deism through their own experience, study, and understanding?

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm curious about Deism. Were there ever Deist congregations? (Are there now? Have they existed continuously since the time of our Founding Fathers, many of whom were Deists?)
I think the closest thing to a Deist congregation would be the Unitarian Church which isn't exactly teh same thing, but it's pretty close to a wing of Deism known as "Christian Deism." Many of the Founding Fathers were "Christian Deists" including Thomas Jefferson who re-wrote the Bible to fit these beliefs. But not all Deists are Christian Deists. But Deism certainly precedes our Founding Fathers -- it came from Europe during the Enlightenment.


Do Deists base their beliefs on authority outside themselves (such as Christians do with the Bible), or do they come to Deism through their own experience, study, and understanding?
Good question. I definitely think it's the latter which, in and of itself, illustrates one of the most basic tenants of Deism which is that human beings were created in God's image with intelligence, rational thought, and free-will. To that end, one's own personal religious "journey" to Deism would represent the will of God in and of itself.

However, I should make clear that Deism does not have any set/concrete beliefs aside from a belief that God exists and he created the universe. Everything beyond that is up to the individual to decide for his or herself. I would hesitate to say that Deists view God as an "authority" figure. God in the Deist view tends to be much more abstract than that.

[SicEmBaylor]

...and he changed his mind.
http://www.salon.com/2013/05/28/vatican_sorry_atheists_cant_go_to_heaven_after_all/

[TitoMorelli]

Here you go:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html



My upbringing in the church is very much in line with Pope Francis's homily. I know that a lot of people will have problems with this teaching.

The fathers are holy on Sunday, and they're holy hell on the rest of the week. You just can't trust those damn Catholics on a Thursday or a Friday.

[East Coast Bias]

I think the Pope is showing courage in trying to expand the teachings of the church.For me a good part of the New testament revolves around Paul's Translation of which direction the church should go. Most of Christian teachings could be characterized as "Paulism", with a less direct link to the gospel of Jesus. For me the gospel of Jesus can be found in the Sermon on the Mount, his opportunity to speak to a large crowd about his message.Where in this sermon did he lay out the requirements? Maybe one of the experts here can tell me where Jesus described himself as the "Son of God"? More commonly he referred to himself as the "Son of Man". I have not seen a good interpretation of what that means?
Sic-Em could win me over with Deism, I would characterize myself as an atheist for Jesus....

[TAFBSooner]

I think the closest thing to a Deist congregation would be the Unitarian Church which isn't exactly teh same thing, but it's pretty close to a wing of Deism known as "Christian Deism." Many of the Founding Fathers were "Christian Deists" including Thomas Jefferson who re-wrote the Bible to fit these beliefs. But not all Deists are Christian Deists. But Deism certainly precedes our Founding Fathers -- it came from Europe during the Enlightenment.


Good question. I definitely think it's the latter which, in and of itself, illustrates one of the most basic tenants of Deism which is that human beings were created in God's image with intelligence, rational thought, and free-will. To that end, one's own personal religious "journey" to Deism would represent the will of God in and of itself.

However, I should make clear that Deism does not have any set/concrete beliefs aside from a belief that God exists and he created the universe. Everything beyond that is up to the individual to decide for his or herself. I would hesitate to say that Deists view God as an "authority" figure. God in the Deist view tends to be much more abstract than that.

OK, I am even more confused by the concept of Christian Deism. Christianity is based on revelation of the divine. Deism rejects revelation in favor of man's intelligence, rational thought, and free will. Sounds like a fundamental incompatibility. Could it be that Christian Deists were those who started out Christian, and had questions that led them to Deism?

One way to look at Unitarian Universalism is that they (Unitarianism and Universalism) started out as Christian denominations but have since migrated out of Christianity. (UUism doesn't have a creed, so when I say "they*" I am talking in generalities about the members, not "the" point of view of the church. YMMV.) They* certainly don't reject Jesus, but do not believe that He is the only path to enlightenment. BTW, they* don't necessarily believe in any need for salvation.

[Blue]

I think the Pope is showing courage in trying to expand the teachings of the church.For me a good part of the New testament revolves around Paul's Translation of which direction the church should go. Most of Christian teachings could be characterized as "Paulism", with a less direct link to the gospel of Jesus. For me the gospel of Jesus can be found in the Sermon on the Mount, his opportunity to speak to a large crowd about his message.Where in this sermon did he lay out the requirements? Maybe one of the experts here can tell me where Jesus described himself as the "Son of God"? More commonly he referred to himself as the "Son of Man". I have not seen a good interpretation of what that means?
Sic-Em could win me over with Deism, I would characterize myself as an atheist for Jesus....

If you know me you know the father...I and the father are one....before the world began, "I Am" just off the top of my head.

[Blue]

How anyone could read the gospels and not see that Jesus was claiming to be God is beyond me. By things he did and the things he said, he was either a madman and a liar not worthy of followers or he was telling the truth.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

How anyone could read the gospels and not see that Jesus was claiming to be God is beyond me. By things he did and the things he said, he was either a madman and a liar not worthy of followers or he was telling the truth.

Or the writers and editors gave it their own spin.

[SicEmBaylor]

Or the writers and editors gave it their own spin.

Not to mention the number of times it has been translated and retranslated. It's like making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy -- it starts to lose clarity from the original after awhile.

[Midtowner]

Not to mention the number of times it has been translated and retranslated. It's like making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy -- it starts to loose clarity from the original after awhile.

But the Holy Spirit! Magic happened!

(or maybe it's a nice story full of decent allegory which presents, at least in the NT, a decent way to go about life)

--or perhaps it was a great way for the Roman Empire to consolidate power and place the church more firmly into the hands of the aristocracy and to remove their pagan church from any semblance of power altogether?

[SicEmBaylor]

*lose

[SicEmBaylor]

But the Holy Spirit! Magic happened!

(or maybe it's a nice story full of decent allegory which presents, at least in the NT, a decent way to go about life)

--or perhaps it was a great way for the Roman Empire to consolidate power and place the church more firmly into the hands of the aristocracy and to remove their pagan church from any semblance of power altogether?

That is largely how I think the Bible should be applied to life. The Christian teachings are a great guide for living a good decent life and an excellent set of moral principles. Just because I don't take the Bible to be literal truth doesn't mean the teachings found within aren't worth applying.

Where I start to have issues is when you take such a dogmatic view of what is written in the Bible that you condemn good decent people for not practicing Christianity in the way they interpret it should be practiced -- especially when you condemn entire people to fire and brimstone for the unforgiving sin of following a different religion....even when that religion has very similar more teachings.

Jews are an example. I'm uncomfortable condemning the Jewish people to fire and brimstone in the hereafter because they're Jewish since so many of them were condemned to fire here on Earth because they were Jewish. Makes me uneasy.

[olevetonahill]

Sic, sitting here reading matlocks and your reasoning about the bible is very humorous to me Its like watchin children try to discuss Quantum Theory.

Like Paul said in Corinthians

1 Corinthians - Chapter 1 - vs. 18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (King James Bible)

[Midtowner]

Watching vet proof text is like someone trying to convince me there's gold at the end of a rainbow and it's protected by a leprechaun or that Santa is real, etc.

There may be some truth to the Bible. The OT events may have occurred in somewhat of the manner described, but if you believe the Jews blew trumpets at Jericho and God caused the walls to crumble or that Noah floated around the world in an ark containing two of every animal, I have a snowman with a magic hat to introduce you to.

[olevetonahill]

matlock,Did you see my Einstein Pic that I posted for you?

[Midtowner]

You're just doing the typical thing when you're cornered, you stop responding and start with the name calling. For as ridiculous as you behave here, I hope you're at least daydrunk.

Here ya go sport, an article on some of the basic facts surrounding the Church's birth:

http://www.gadling.com/2010/09/21/the-death-of-paganism-how-the-roman-empire-converted-to-christi/

I know it's unlikely you'll let anything challenge your narrow world view shaped by years of repeating half-truths in Sunday school class about things like Constantine's switch to Christianity because God helped him triumph in battle. As with most of the uneducated things you say, this problem too can be cured. Read more.

[olevetonahill]

You are such an http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VMV6TNL7yH8/TNihsMMRvXI/AAAAAAAAABU/FfY3f0--KFo/s1600/jackass1.jpg


Where have I spouted anything in Favor. I have simply stated what the Bible says and what MOST christians believe. For all your Vast knowledge of me you dont know your dick from a stick.

Plus I dont think Im the one who quits and runs and Hides.
You have yet to admit that you didn't know jack about Watergate. So here http://www.olevetpossehideout.com/forums/images/smilies/fuk2.jpg

[Blue]

Sic, sitting here reading matlocks and your reasoning about the bible is very humorous to me Its like watchin children try to discuss Quantum Theory.

Like Paul said in Corinthians

1 Corinthians - Chapter 1 - vs. 18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (King James Bible)



I agree and its sad. Just man making God in his own image. Nothing else to see here.

Midtowner is there anything you are not an expert on?

[olevetonahill]

I agree and its sad. Just man making God in his own image. Nothing else to see here.


Midtowner is there anything you are not an expert on?

:very_drunk:

[Blue]

Not to mention the number of times it has been translated and retranslated. It's like making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy -- it starts to lose clarity from the original after awhile.

You can go look at the dead sea scrolls and translate them right now. If you look into it with the same enthusiasm you have for civil war history you will see that you are wrong here.

[Blue]

But the Holy Spirit! Magic happened!

(or maybe it's a nice story full of decent allegory which presents, at least in the NT, a decent way to go about life)

--or perhaps it was a great way for the Roman Empire to consolidate power and place the church more firmly into the hands of the aristocracy and to remove their pagan church from any semblance of power altogether?

A religion started from a man who claimed to be God and was put to death and the friends and people who knew him risked and mostly lost their lives by the most gruesome ways imaginable trying to spread this truth. Why would they go out of their way to be tortured if it was just another religion? And now 2 billion people on this planet claim it.

Not to mention how the New Testament and the life of Jesus Christ match up w/ every prophecy of a messiah in the Jewish torah/old testament written 500-1800 years before it.

Its inspired by the living God who loved you so much as to come and find you, become a man, live a life you cant, die a death you deserve, so you could be forgiven of your sinful nature, given a new nature, and be reconciled to him.

[Midtowner]

A religion started from a man who claimed to be God and was put to death and the friends and people who knew him risked and mostly lost their lives by the most gruesome ways imaginable trying to spread this truth. Why would they go out of their way to be tortured if it was just another religion? And now 2 billion people on this planet claim it.

Because they were true believers. Folks have died in gruesome ways for all kinds of religions. That doesn't prove anything. And the 2 billion people part? Wouldn't have happened unless Constantine saw Christianity as a great political asset to divest the incumbent religious hierarchy with something more friendly and controllable in a time of civil war. He even had a nice cover story. Conveniently, after his declaration of Christianity as the official religion, the existing Roman temples were sacked and looted.


Not to mention how the New Testament and the life of Jesus Christ match up w/ every prophecy of a messiah in the Jewish torah/old testament written 500-1800 years before it.

Oh.. so you mean the same Jews who still don't recognize that a messiah has showed up yet? And Christianity is hardly the first religion to predict a messiah of some sort.

Its inspired by the living God who loved you so much as to come and find you, become a man, live a life you cant, die a death you deserve, so you could be forgiven of your sinful nature, given a new nature, and be reconciled to him.[/QUOTE]

Um what? Just repeating some of your religious-speak? Neat.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2012/01/puppies-are-cute-seattle-billboard-resized-2.jpg

[East Coast Bias]

My problems with the Church is what they have done with the gospel of Jesus. Through Paul's interpretations they have contorted the message and spun this story around stuff they borrowed from other religions. Almost none of the story is original and has had earlier incarnations. The Good News is that there are books that challenge a lot of this. "The Gospel of Jesus Christ" by Stephen Mitchell is an excellent start. The pearl of great price can be found there.

Jesus spoke to his own message, it is evident in places where he addressed the masses. The Sermon on the Mount would be the best example. No list of requirements, nothing to be saved from in what we see here. The religion everyone wants to die for is really just a matter of geography. If you were born in New Delhi or Islamabad you would want to die for someone or something else.

[cleller]

Aside from the bickering, some of the finest people I've ever encountered are devoted Christians. A neighbor I was helping today is such a man. A towering oak in a sea of scrub. The type of man that I would turn to in the most dire situations, and who would be there at a moment's notice.

This has been a pattern throughout my life.

[olevetonahill]

Aside from the bickering, some of the finest people I've ever encountered are devoted Christians. A neighbor I was helping today is such a man. A towering oak in a see of scrub. The type of man that I would turn to in the most dire situations, and who would be there at a moment's notice.

This has been a pattern throughout my life.

Yup. Then Ya have the Retards

[OU68]

^^^ This -- I'm reminded of all those atheist groups that rushed to New Orleans and Moore - oh, wait....

[Midtowner]

^^^ This -- I'm reminded of all those atheist groups that rushed to New Orleans and Moore - oh, wait....

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=Atheist%20groups%20helping%20katrina&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=779a49d6fdd15bbe&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47244034,d.dmQ&biw=1599&bih=804

[OU68]

AA&F was able to send eleven of its members on the trip and Cru sent nineteen. Outstanding!! where do I send the trophy?

[olevetonahill]

AA&F was able to send eleven of its members on the trip and Cru sent nineteen. Outstanding!! where do I send the trophy?

:congratulatory:

[Midtowner]

How many did your Church send?

[olevetonahill]

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=Atheist%20groups%20helping%20katrina&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=779a49d6fdd15bbe&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47244034,d.dmQ&biw=1599&bih=804


How many did your Church send?

So those are YOUR groups you posted links to?Or you just being your Usual ****ing retarded self?

[OU68]

How many did your Church send?

While the numbers related to Katrina's death and destruction were staggering so, too, were the numbers put up by the 21,000 Southern Baptist volunteers who came to the Gulf Coast:

-- 196,310 volunteer days.

-- 500 SBDR units responding from across the United States.

-- 14,613,798 hot meals prepared and served to victims, volunteers and first responders.

-- 21,610 gallons of water purified.

-- 7,817 children cared for.

-- 17,033 chainsaw and mud-out jobs completed.

-- 132,019 showers provided to victims and workers.

-- 27,845 laundry loads washed and dried.

-- 3,107 ham radio messages delivered -- vital because of wireline/wireless phone outages.

[olevetonahill]

Heh OU68 . Ya hand matlock his azz and he runs away. and wont respond . Yet he will be back in a few hours running his mouth in some other thread acting like he Sees all, Knows all and is better than any of the rest of us.

[diverdog]

Aside from the bickering, some of the finest people I've ever encountered are devoted Christians. A neighbor I was helping today is such a man. A towering oak in a sea of scrub. The type of man that I would turn to in the most dire situations, and who would be there at a moment's notice.

This has been a pattern throughout my life.

I really agree with this. Mormons as a whole seem to be really good people.

[Midtowner]

While the numbers related to Katrina's death and destruction were staggering so, too, were the numbers put up by the 21,000 Southern Baptist volunteers who came to the Gulf Coast:

-- 196,310 volunteer days.

-- 500 SBDR units responding from across the United States.

-- 14,613,798 hot meals prepared and served to victims, volunteers and first responders.

-- 21,610 gallons of water purified.

-- 7,817 children cared for.

-- 17,033 chainsaw and mud-out jobs completed.

-- 132,019 showers provided to victims and workers.

-- 27,845 laundry loads washed and dried.

-- 3,107 ham radio messages delivered -- vital because of wireline/wireless phone outages.

I asked about your church, not some big church organization.

[OU68]

I asked about your church, not some big church organization.

And the link you provided was to you group only? Gee, when I clicked it I got a whole page -- oh, I forgot, you're a lawyer....

[Midtowner]

It was a whole page of the small atheist groups which did send volunteers, etc., which also ended up documenting it somehow online. There's no overarching atheist organization of which I'm aware which could even begin to tabulate those sorts of things. You said it didn't happen, I showed you it happened many times yet you still want to argue?

[OU68]

It was a whole page of the small atheist groups which did send volunteers, etc., which also ended up documenting it somehow online. There's no overarching atheist organization of which I'm aware which could even begin to tabulate those sorts of things. You said it didn't happen, I showed you it happened many times yet you still want to argue?

Aint arguin dumazz - you asked how many my church sent - I belong to a Southern Baptist church, I posted - then you deflected. Go pet your dog.