So much for freedom of the press

[TitoMorelli]

Not that I'm a real big fan of AP or the MSM, but I still believe in the First Amendment:


The President and CEO of the Associated Press told CBS News that the Justice Department’s seizure of phone records was “unconstitutional” and has hurt the agency’s ability to report on the news. It’s not that the government doesn’t have the right to seize phone records, Gary Pruitt said, but the methodology was “so sweeping, so secretively, so abusively and harassingly overbroad" that it violated the Constitution.

While investigating the source of a leak that led to a story about a failed terror plot in Yemen, the Justice Department "issued a secret subpoena for the phone toll records for 21 AP phone lines and these were phones lines for reporters, direct lines, cell phones, home phones but also the office numbers," Pruitt said. The Justice Department is required to make its request as narrowly as possible. Plus, it should have informed the AP first, although it claimed an exception to that rule saying it would threaten the investigation. “But they have not explained why it would and we can't understand why it would."

Now AP reporters are having trouble getting sources to talk. "Officials that would normally talk to us, and people we talk to in the normal course of news gathering, are already saying they're a little reluctant to talk to us,” Pruitt said. “They fear that they will be monitored by the government."


http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/05/19/gary_pruitt_ap_ceo_calls_phone_records_probe_uncon stitutional.html

[yermom]

i'm pretty sure i would use a burner for **** like that

[Midtowner]

On the one hand, we're happy with Bradley Manning being locked away. On the other, we're bemoaning the downfall of the freedom of the press. Which is it we value more? Secrecy or freedom?

[yermom]

personally, i like Bradley Manning, but you know, i'm a communist.

[Sooner5030]

Huh? How is Manning even brought up in this conversation? He voluntarily took an oath and also signed a statement that he would not disclose information that he would gain access to while he served. He was compensated for his service but he did not hold up his end of the contract.

get over it

[yermom]

he should have just followed orders, huh?

[Sooner5030]

he should have just followed orders, huh?

What the hell are you talking about? No one is allowed to leak classified information.....it's against regulation.

You watch too much TV. He wasn't some innocent civilian walking down the street who stumbled on some cables and wanted to get the "truth" out to a bunch of yermoms. He volunteered to serve in the Army and do it in a occupation that handles sensitive data. Part of that is to be trained to properly handle the data and follow all regulations in safeguarding it. He used the Army's trust to gain access to the SIPRnet in order to release information that he knew he did not have the authority to release. He was a Soldier and falls under a different set of rules than some civilian reporter.

[yermom]

he uncovered information that was on the atrocity level that otherwise wouldn't have been public

like this:

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/08/29/cables-reveal-2006-summary-execution-of-civilian-family-in-iraq/

actually, he probably did them a favor with releasing so much since it flooded everything and that became the story, instead of individual things

[Sooner5030]

he uncovered information that was on the atrocity level that otherwise wouldn't have been public

like this:

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/08/29/cables-reveal-2006-summary-execution-of-civilian-family-in-iraq/

actually, he probably did them a favor with releasing so much since it flooded everything and that became the story, instead of individual things

That cable revealed a letter TO the state department from someone claiming that those events occurred. Big deal. He still didn't have the authority to release it. Which is why his *** is in jail. Get over it.

[yermom]

meh

[olevetonahill]

i'm pretty sure i would use a burner for **** like that

A person shouldnt have to use a burner to feel safe from an intrusive government, Yet arnt you in favor of Gun control?


personally, i like Bradley Manning, but you know, i'm a communist.

Manning swore THIS oath along with Millions of others. He broke it Nuff said


Oath of Enlistment.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
(Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

[Midtowner]

What the hell are you talking about? No one is allowed to leak classified information.....it's against regulation.

Leaking information is always against regulation or policy or whatever. In the military, the problem was that things which were classified really shouldn't have been. For example, why should the video of the helicopter attack where the journalist was killed have been classified? How did that protect national security?

[olevetonahill]

Leaking information is always against regulation or policy or whatever. In the military, the problem was that things which were classified really shouldn't have been. For example, why should the video of the helicopter attack where the journalist was killed have been classified? How did that protect national security?

Dont Matter what you or That PFC thought. It was way above His Pay grade to decide to leak the ****.

[sappstuf]

Dont Matter what you or That PFC thought. It was way above His Pay grade to decide to leak the ****.

Just imagine how much better the military would operate if PFCs could do whatever the **** they wanted! ;)

[olevetonahill]

Just imagine how much better the military would operate if PFCs could do whatever the **** they wanted! ;)

matlock is a ****in idiot.

[olevetonahill]

Just imagine how much better the military would operate if PFCs could do whatever the **** they wanted! ;)

dint really need to be said twice . LOL

[cleller]

So because Bradley Manning got in trouble for leaking military info, no one should be upset that Obama is quashing the press and the constitution?

There's some kindergarten logic for you.

[olevetonahill]

Leaking information is always against regulation or policy or whatever. In the military, the problem was that things which were classified really shouldn't have been. For example, why should the video of the helicopter attack where the journalist was killed have been classified? How did that protect national security?

Ok so matlock by your logic. Say your secretary decided on her own that what was said an done between you an a client dint really need to be confidential, and sent the info to anyone who wanted to look at it. She should not be punished . Right?

Boy you are gonna grow up hard some day.

[Midtowner]

Ok so matlock by your logic. Say your secretary decided on her own that what was said an done between you an a client dint really need to be confidential, and sent the info to anyone who wanted to look at it. She should not be punished . Right?

Boy you are gonna grow up hard some day.

She'd be fired immediately.

But I don't really see the difference between Manning and the high level leaks occurring regarding the IRS scandal or Benghazi or whatnot. The only difference is that one kind of leak is politically expedient for the folks in charge and the other's not.

[olevetonahill]

Course you dont see a difference yer an Idiot.

[sappstuf]

She'd be fired immediately.

But I don't really see the difference between Manning and the high level leaks occurring regarding the IRS scandal or Benghazi or whatnot. The only difference is that one kind of leak is politically expedient for the folks in charge and the other's not.

What leak? An IG report is what brought this to light.

[Midtowner]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/13/the-irs-admits-to-targeting-conservative-groups-but-were-they-also-leaking/

[olevetonahill]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/13/the-irs-admits-to-targeting-conservative-groups-but-were-they-also-leaking/

so yer sayin a secretary leakin a bit of Info is just as bad as some PFC leaking volumes of Classified material?
Again sir you are a ****ing idiot.

[rock on sooner]

Mid, did you serve in any branch of the military? If you did, I'm
having a real hard time understanding your defense of Manning.
If you didn't serve, then I understand...you clearly don't know
anything about military protocol.

[KantoSooner]

Can we get back to the AP deal. You want to discuss little Wonder Bunny Manning, go start a thread.
To me, the AP deal is not nearly as serious as the IRS scandal. The press makes it out to be since they are involved and very few have the professionalism to separate their personal lives from the stories they report.
The AP thing may very well be confined to the investigatory level inside the Justice Department. It would make sense if it were. And they were, after all, looking for the source of a leak that disclosed methods and sources and led, at least indirectly, to the death of at least one Saudi agent. The use of the IRS for partisan political revenge, however, could not possibly have been confined to 'two rogue lower middle level functionaries in Cinncinati'. It defies logic that that's all there were. Not with so many other offices involved. So, it was more widespread and compelled by a higher authority inside the IRS or Treasury, at the least. And why would that higher authority do such a risky thing? Almost surely there was someone on a senior political level who made the request. Was Obama personally involved? No way to know as of yet. But he well might have been. And use of the IRS to punish your political foes is far more important than overstepping investigative guidelines by overzealous special agents.

[Midtowner]

Mid, did you serve in any branch of the military? If you did, I'm
having a real hard time understanding your defense of Manning.
If you didn't serve, then I understand...you clearly don't know
anything about military protocol.

Nope. And there's nothing holy about military protocol if it serves no purpose other than covering up embarrassing screwups. The public should be able to find out about these things if we still value the concept of an informed electorate.

[rock on sooner]

Kanto, dint mean to "feed" the Manning issue, jus thot my question
to Mid was pertinent to the argument.

I don't have a problem with going after the phone records looking for
the leak, even how it was done. I've said in another thread that a
lot of journalists throw national security or individual security under
the bus in the interest of personal glory. Now, the IRS, OTOH, is
a different matter...I've read that senior officials in at least three
offices knew about the efforts against the TEA Partiers. IMO, knowing
about it and doing nothing is implied approval and every head oughta
roll.. I don't think Obama knew or approved, but it wouldn't surprise me
at all to find some really high Dem officials knew AND approved. It is
unnecessary to muzzle the TP'ers because they can find ways to shoot
themselves, especially with some of the candidates they trot out...

[KantoSooner]

Not necessarily. Let's say you have an otherwise excellent young officer. One day he/she is in the field and makes a mistake. Do you, a) immedaitely rush to the press with whatever evidence you have regarding the incident or, b) conduct an internal review, involve the officer and other people who were involved in the decision and then, if you're satisfied that the causes and consequences were fully understood and had been taken on board bury the thing as deeply and completely as possible?

I would argue that there are times for both but that either could be appropriate exercises in command authority. The world is shades of grey and we need to allow those who are selected to manage our military to have meaningful discretion.

[KantoSooner]

Kanto, dint mean to "feed" the Manning issue, jus thot my question
to Mid was pertinent to the argument.

I don't have a problem with going after the phone records looking for
the leak, even how it was done. I've said in another thread that a
lot of journalists throw national security or individual security under
the bus in the interest of personal glory. Now, the IRS, OTOH, is
a different matter...I've read that senior officials in at least three
offices knew about the efforts against the TEA Partiers. IMO, knowing
about it and doing nothing is implied approval and every head oughta
roll.. I don't think Obama knew or approved, but it wouldn't surprise me
at all to find some really high Dem officials knew AND approved. It is
unnecessary to muzzle the TP'ers because they can find ways to shoot
themselves, especially with some of the candidates they trot out...

I'm not bitchy about it, no worries. It is amazing how sooner or later scandal always arrives for every president.

[rock on sooner]

I'm not bitchy about it, no worries. It is amazing how sooner or later scandal always arrives for every president.

Heard a piece on NPR this morning talking about that very thing...nearly
always in the second terms of said presidents....

[Curly Bill]

Whether any of these scandals stick, it is nice to have Obammy and company having to deal with these things as opposed to being able to concentrate on their "agenda," which best I can tell is to ruin the country.

[Midtowner]

Not necessarily. Let's say you have an otherwise excellent young officer. One day he/she is in the field and makes a mistake. Do you, a) immedaitely rush to the press with whatever evidence you have regarding the incident or, b) conduct an internal review, involve the officer and other people who were involved in the decision and then, if you're satisfied that the causes and consequences were fully understood and had been taken on board bury the thing as deeply and completely as possible?

I would argue that there are times for both but that either could be appropriate exercises in command authority. The world is shades of grey and we need to allow those who are selected to manage our military to have meaningful discretion.

It's pertinent to the public in that the public needs to be shown what war looks like and there's no reason it needs to be secret. Keeping things secret should not be the default. It should be reserved specifically for information which for national security reasons, needs to be secret. I have not heard of a single death or loss of any kind other than being embarrassed as a result of the Manning disclosures. The public has a right to know. The founders never would approve of this current state of affairs.

[rock on sooner]

I disagree. The public does NOT have a right to know about everything
the military does or has to do in its operation. Many things the military
accomplishes that they consider routine does affect the order of things
internally and, individually, may appear innocuous but taken in context of
the larger scheme of things is necessary and should not be public knowledge.

Knowing what war looks like is one thing but the outing of some individuals
and what they do in the "interest" of public knowledge is dangerous to those
individuals and should not happen. I can speak from personal experience. Many
of the things in which I was involved were innocuous and mundane but in the
overall context of my job and my group's mission they were necessary and you
had/have no business knowing about. What I and many, many others did was
help keep you safe and free to express your opinion, so, for you to say that it
was/is okay for all of that to become public is misguided and dangerous.

The founders had no concept of how the world would evolve and how truly
dangerous it would become.

[Curly Bill]

I know firsthand the military classifies many things it shouldn't, but it is waaaaayyyyy above the pay grade of some dumas grunt like Bradley Manning to take matters into his own hands. Little sumbitch needs to be taken out and shot.

[C&CDean]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the founders didn't know we were gonna have ragheads beheading folks, blowing themselves and others up, murdering our military and civilians, and pretty much causing massive world chaos.

I know Mid acts thick. A lot. However, he can't really be as naive on this issue as he acts. "Oh who cares whose kids get their nuts cut off and stuck down their own throat, we have a RIGHT to know..." Meh.

[Midtowner]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the founders didn't know we were gonna have ragheads beheading folks, blowing themselves and others up, murdering our military and civilians, and pretty much causing massive world chaos.

I'm pretty sure the founders wouldn't have collectively shat their pants and emptied the entire treasury and put us in debt like we have to pursue those enemies halfway around the world. These were men who lived to see Washington D.C. burned by the redcoats, saw enemy soldiers quartered in civilian homes, saw mass confiscations of private property by the Crown, had their slaves set free and used against them, etc. Compared to our founders, we're a bunch of poo-sees.

The sort of stuff exposed by Manning was that ambassador A thinks President B is a giant ******, that a helicopter pilot mistook a member of the media for a combatant, that even we aren't impervious to making mistakes in war, etc. This was low-level stuff, most of which should have been obtainable through the Freedom of Information Act. Some of this secrecy is being used to cover up U.S. war crimes, e.g., the video of the Granai Airstrike which is a video depicting the killing of at least 87 civilians by a U.S. air strike.

No one has been killed or physically harmed because of the information Manning disclosed, which is basically proof positive that none of it should have been secret in the first place. On the other hand, we've seen a blatant hypocrisy in the military. On the one hand, we'll treat as serious a breach of secrecy. On the other hand, it's okay to sweep murdering civilians under the rug. Hey... **** happens.

Don't misunderstand. I don't think Manning should be able to walk away from this. We are a country of laws and I support the rule of law.

[champions77]

On the one hand, we're happy with Bradley Manning being locked away. On the other, we're bemoaning the downfall of the freedom of the press. Which is it we value more? Secrecy or freedom?

I don't think the "Freedom of the Press" applies here. His actions compromised the security of this country. 100 years ago the sorry sack would have been shot for treason.

[C&CDean]

I'm pretty sure the founders wouldn't have collectively shat their pants and emptied the entire treasury and put us in debt like we have to pursue those enemies halfway around the world. These were men who lived to see Washington D.C. burned by the redcoats, saw enemy soldiers quartered in civilian homes, saw mass confiscations of private property by the Crown, had their slaves set free and used against them, etc. Compared to our founders, we're a bunch of poo-sees.

The sort of stuff exposed by Manning was that ambassador A thinks President B is a giant ******, that a helicopter pilot mistook a member of the media for a combatant, that even we aren't impervious to making mistakes in war, etc. This was low-level stuff, most of which should have been obtainable through the Freedom of Information Act. Some of this secrecy is being used to cover up U.S. war crimes, e.g., the video of the Granai Airstrike which is a video depicting the killing of at least 87 civilians by a U.S. air strike.

No one has been killed or physically harmed because of the information Manning disclosed, which is basically proof positive that none of it should have been secret in the first place. On the other hand, we've seen a blatant hypocrisy in the military. On the one hand, we'll treat as serious a breach of secrecy. On the other hand, it's okay to sweep murdering civilians under the rug. Hey... **** happens.

Don't misunderstand. I don't think Manning should be able to walk away from this. We are a country of laws and I support the rule of law.

Thick. You are. It's not about what was in the secrets Manning blabbed. It. Doesn't. Matter.

What matters is him violating his oath. What matters is him jeopardizing national security. He should be shot or hanged. Period.

[rock on sooner]

I don't think the "Freedom of the Press" applies here. His actions compromised the security of this country. 100 years ago the sorry sack would have been shot for treason.

100 years he!!...had he pulled that stunt toward the end of Nam the
court martial would have been short and to the point and a full metal
jacket would have followed. Since the press was imbedded with Desert
Storm, been a ton of problems.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So because Bradley Manning got in trouble for leaking military info, no one should be upset that Obama is quashing the press and the constitution?

There's some kindergarten(democrat/socialist) logic for you.FI

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Whether any of these scandals stick, it is nice to have Obammy and company having to deal with these things as opposed to being able to concentrate on their "agenda," which best I can tell is to ruin the country.No biggee. The agenda goes on unimpeded. The MSM will NOT EVER turn hard on democrats. Especially the first black democrat president. This will blow over, and the mission is continuously underway.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

The sort of stuff exposed by Manning was that ambassador A thinks President B is a giant ******, that a helicopter pilot mistook a member of the media for a combatant, that even we aren't impervious to making mistakes in war, etc. This was low-level stuff, most of which should have been obtainable through the Freedom of Information Act. Some of this secrecy is being used to cover up U.S. war crimes, e.g., the video of the Granai Airstrike which is a video depicting the killing of at least 87 civilians by a U.S. air strike.

Dresden called. It wanted to remind you that war is hell and a sad but common reality of it is that innocent people get killed.

[jkjsooner]

To me this is a fourth amendment issue - unreasonable search and seizure - not a first amendment issue.

It's not a 1st amendment because in general the government has the right to uncover whoever is leaking classified information and prosecute them accordingly. Someone inside the government doesn't have the first amendment right to disclose classified information. I know this happens and it is how we learn about abuses but the government doesn't have to sit back and allow it to happen.

The government doesn't, on the other hand, have a right to monitor an entire news organization. They need much more specific information/targets to satisfy what I would consider a reasonable search.

[jkjsooner]

To expand on my previous post, when classified information is leaked a crime has been committed. If the government has a good idea on who is leaking or who it is leaking to, they have every right to attempt to uncover who is responsible for this crime. Any reporter who is getting classified information should know that there is a chance that the government may get a warrant to monitor his phone lines, etc.

The issue here is the act of monitoring the entire organization in an attempt to uncover who is leaking. Warrants should not be issued in such a broad manner with so little information about who is involved. Doing so is like searching everybody's house in your city because the police have information that one person has child pornography. You just can't (or should I say shouldn't be able to) do that.

[Midtowner]

Dresden called. It wanted to remind you that war is hell and a sad but common reality of it is that innocent people get killed.

No ****.

Dresden, plain and simple was a war crime. We were not targeting military assets, and if anyone thinks our law of war matters (the winners usually don't or aren't held accountable for winning, thus the perverse incentives kick in) those in charge and who carried out Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, etc., are war criminals. They intentionally targeted non combatants. Our public, including me, generally support those actions.

Where we have the difference is that in the U.S., the public was informed about Dresden. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were kind of a big deal in the newspaper. The Granai Airstrike was declared a state secret. Is that a good thing?

[Midtowner]

The issue here is the act of monitoring the entire organization in an attempt to uncover who is leaking. Warrants should not be issued in such a broad manner with so little information about who is involved. Doing so is like searching everybody's house in your city because the police have information that one person has child pornography. You just can't (or should I say shouldn't be able to) do that.

The problem is that the feds have gutted the 4th Amendment to the point all you have to do is invoke "national security" and they can get a warrant for damn near anything. The FISA court which issues those warrants basically never rejects applications. It might as well not exist.

[rock on sooner]

Clearly, Granai was tragic and loss of civilian life horrible. From a military
viewpoint, minimal exposure holds down civilian blowback and helps keep
our troops on the ground a tiny bit safer. Wonder how much collateral
damage occurred during the Russian and British wars in Afghanistan? State
secret, I doubt it, but classifying it? I can understand doing it. Someone
earlier said that a lot of things are classified by our gov't and you wonder
why.

As to Dresden, carpet bombing a city WAS a tactic, as was the raid on
Tokyo (to show the Japanese the handwriting), Hiroshima, too...Nagasaki
was not needed, shoulda waited a while longer and the Emperor would have
thrown in the towel. Gotta tell ya, Mid, if you were the war planner, we'd
not stand a chance! Jus sayin...

[Midtowner]

Clearly, Granai was tragic and loss of civilian life horrible. From a military
viewpoint, minimal exposure holds down civilian blowback and helps keep
our troops on the ground a tiny bit safer. Wonder how much collateral
damage occurred during the Russian and British wars in Afghanistan? State
secret, I doubt it, but classifying it? I can understand doing it. Someone
earlier said that a lot of things are classified by our gov't and you wonder
why.

[quote]As to Dresden, carpet bombing a city WAS a tactic, as was the raid on
Tokyo (to show the Japanese the handwriting), Hiroshima, too...Nagasaki
was not needed, shoulda waited a while longer and the Emperor would have
thrown in the towel. Gotta tell ya, Mid, if you were the war planner, we'd
not stand a chance! Jus sayin...

Those actions were war crimes. Plain and simple. The whole lot of our leadership would've been put to death had we lost the war just as we did to the German and Japanese commanders for basically the same sorts of atrocities. It was a tactic and it was damned effective.

Well, we know about Granai now... so how'd that harm our troops? Even a little?

The American public is aware that there is collateral damage and that mistakes are made. There's no good reason to classify every damn thing.

[cleller]

No ****.

Dresden, plain and simple was a war crime. We were not targeting military assets, and if anyone thinks our law of war matters (the winners usually don't or aren't held accountable for winning, thus the perverse incentives kick in) those in charge and who carried out Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, etc., are war criminals.


Do you honestly believe the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes? Very hard to understand.

At Nagasaki they were warned before the attacks very clearly. We dropped leaflets warning to evacuate.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-leaflets/

The Japanese were implored to surrender. They refused. Those bombs saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers and Japanese civilians that would have died in an invasion. Had we not dropped the bombs, the deaths would have been many times higher. Huge numbers of Americans would have never come home; as in our fathers, grandfathers, etc. The Japanese govt/military are responsible for those deaths.

[TitoMorelli]

Good to know that Hitler only bombed military installations in London, and that the Japs only murdered and raped Chinese soldiers in Nanking.

[C&CDean]

God almighty Midtowner is a retard. Full-on, total, complete, and whole retard. Sorry, but your mommy wasted her student loan paying for your POS degree. Geez. How do you function?

[rock on sooner]

[QUOTE=rock on sooner;3609589]Clearly, Granai was tragic and loss of civilian life horrible. From a military
viewpoint, minimal exposure holds down civilian blowback and helps keep
our troops on the ground a tiny bit safer. Wonder how much collateral
damage occurred during the Russian and British wars in Afghanistan? State
secret, I doubt it, but classifying it? I can understand doing it. Someone
earlier said that a lot of things are classified by our gov't and you wonder
why.



Those actions were war crimes. Plain and simple. The whole lot of our leadership would've been put to death had we lost the war just as we did to the German and Japanese commanders for basically the same sorts of atrocities. It was a tactic and it was damned effective.

Well, we know about Granai now... so how'd that harm our troops? Even a little?

The American public is aware that there is collateral damage and that mistakes are made. There's no good reason to classify every damn thing.

How many IED's were put in place because it was known that it happened...
Wow, what are you thinking?

[yermom]

Do you honestly believe the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes? Very hard to understand.

At Nagasaki they were warned before the attacks very clearly. We dropped leaflets warning to evacuate.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-leaflets/

The Japanese were implored to surrender. They refused. Those bombs saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers and Japanese civilians that would have died in an invasion. Had we not dropped the bombs, the deaths would have been many times higher. Huge numbers of Americans would have never come home; as in our fathers, grandfathers, etc. The Japanese govt/military are responsible for those deaths.

so why don't we bomb cities like that now?

[diverdog]

Interesting op ed in the New York times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/opinion/stop-the-leaks.html?hp&_r=0

[SicEmBaylor]

so why don't we bomb cities like that now?

Because we haven't been engaged in an unconditional/fully mobilized war with another nation-state since then??? Just my guess.

Personally, I would have dropped a third bomb on them just for good measure. I would have fried every living human being on the Japanese isles without batting an eye.

[Midtowner]

God almighty Midtowner is a retard. Full-on, total, complete, and whole retard. Sorry, but your mommy wasted her student loan paying for your POS degree. Geez. How do you function?

That POS degree paid off 100K in student loans in 4 years.

[Midtowner]

Do you honestly believe the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes? Very hard to understand.

At Nagasaki they were warned before the attacks very clearly. We dropped leaflets warning to evacuate.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-leaflets/

The Japanese were implored to surrender. They refused. Those bombs saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers and Japanese civilians that would have died in an invasion. Had we not dropped the bombs, the deaths would have been many times higher. Huge numbers of Americans would have never come home; as in our fathers, grandfathers, etc. The Japanese govt/military are responsible for those deaths.

I don't disagree with you, but targeting civilians is a war crime.

Say the Germans developed two bombs and dropped one on Boston and the other on NYC and then proceeded to still lose the war.

How do you think we would have treated their people?

[olevetonahill]

That POS degree paid off 100K in student loans in 4 years.


I don't disagree with you, but targeting civilians is a war crime.

Say the Germans developed two bombs and dropped one on Boston and the other on NYC and then proceeded to still lose the war.

How do you think we would have treated their people?

Kids dead dying and missing all around you and you want to Brag about how Cool you are
Pathetic POS you are

[cleller]

so why don't we bomb cities like that now?


I don't disagree with you, but targeting civilians is a war crime.

Say the Germans developed two bombs and dropped one on Boston and the other on NYC and then proceeded to still lose the war.

How do you think we would have treated their people?

Way too much "what if" treatment here. If you can't examine the actions as they applied at the time, and deal with them in that context, there's no point in bringing the issue up.

We were involved in a war with two barbarous adversaries who would have undertaken any atrocity at their disposal to win. Both bombed/raped/tortured/enslaved/exterminated civilians without remorse. They brutally killed many times more civilians than our atomic bombs, and they lost. And we all know how we treated them.

The bombs saved lives. Our lives and theirs. If you'd rather more people had died for some goofy principle, I'm just glad that type of thinking was obviously and properly not going on in 1945.

[Midtowner]

Kids dead dying and missing all around you and you want to Brag about how Cool you are
Pathetic POS you are

Look ******... I worked yesterday to assemble a group of volunteers from two universities and create supply/donation drop off location at my college fraternity house. Those volunteers will be reporting at 9 AM for training by the Red Cross. I won't be able to join them because I still have people depending on me for their legal needs and I have a couple of trials to get ready for tomorrow. Please send a donation to the Red Cross by texting REDCROSS to 90999 and STFU. You know nothing about what I've done.

If Dean wants to open up his ignorant twat and spew venom, I'm happy to correct his BS. It's true that Dave Ramsey is wrong when it comes to student loans and it's true I paid $100K in 4 years. I'm still saving to pay off the penalty for early IRA withdrawal when it comes due next year, but I'm earning interest now instead of paying it.

[Midtowner]

Way too much "what if" treatment here. If you can't examine the actions as they applied at the time, and deal with them in that context, there's no point in bringing the issue up.

We were involved in a war with two barbarous adversaries who would have undertaken any atrocity at their disposal to win. Both bombed/raped/tortured/enslaved/exterminated civilians without remorse. They brutally killed many times more civilians than our atomic bombs, and they lost. And we all know how we treated them.

The bombs saved lives. Our lives and theirs. If you'd rather more people had died for some goofy principle, I'm just glad that type of thinking was obviously and properly not going on in 1945.

I'm fine with what happened, but what happened were crimes. Should those involved have been prosecuted? It really is a very difficult ethical dilemna. I was asking you a question that included both time and context. Sorry if the answer is hard for you to conceive. Here's the fact--if the Germans had done what we did and we still won, we would have executed everyone involved for war crimes. Plain 'n simple.

They were barbarous adversaries. We were just a little more barbarous, so we won.

[olevetonahill]

matlock =
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRdKcHt-JnXmbpjkTEqxdvU38Xp_-XHCn96BfqNN_e9NazqxNGA

[Harry Beanbag]

Look ******... I worked yesterday to assemble a group of volunteers from two universities and create supply/donation drop off location at my college fraternity house. Those volunteers will be reporting at 9 AM for training by the Red Cross. I won't be able to join them because I still have people depending on me for their legal needs and I have a couple of trials to get ready for tomorrow. Please send a donation to the Red Cross by texting REDCROSS to 90999 and STFU. You know nothing about what I've done.

If Dean wants to open up his ignorant twat and spew venom, I'm happy to correct his BS. It's true that Dave Ramsey is wrong when it comes to student loans and it's true I paid $100K in 4 years. I'm still saving to pay off the penalty for early IRA withdrawal when it comes due next year, but I'm earning interest now instead of paying it.


Sorry troll, I don't believe one word of this or any other post you vomit here. Good luck on your internet ********* career. Maybe your mom should have bought you a life instead of a POS degree.

[cleller]

I'm fine with what happened, but what happened were crimes. Should those involved have been prosecuted? It really is a very difficult ethical dilemna. I was asking you a question that included both time and context. Sorry if the answer is hard for you to conceive. Here's the fact--if the Germans had done what we did and we still won, we would have executed everyone involved for war crimes. Plain 'n simple.

They were barbarous adversaries. We were just a little more barbarous, so we won.

I think its more that you were asking a question that included both hemophiliac liberalism, and a defeatist and apologist outlook that is hard for me to conceive.

In August of 1945 we were not going to lose the war. The decision to be made was how to end a war with the smallest loss of life. If you think that's barbarous, go ahead. Or tell us a better way.

[XingTheRubicon]

All successful attorneys spend 30 hours a week arguing on the internet.

[KantoSooner]

I'm pretty sure the founders wouldn't have collectively shat their pants and emptied the entire treasury and put us in debt like we have to pursue those enemies halfway around the world. .

"Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute." Who said that? As I recall, the context was that American shipping in the Med was being interdicted by the Barbary Pirates. So we sent a naval taskforce that was utterly unfunded (again, as I recall, it was sent out too far to return before the final funding measures were put to congress) and unauthorized by congress to do anything. The taskforce then proceeded to kick the collective azzes of the Barbary Pirates (essentially 18th century versions of the same azzholes we're fighting today) and that allowed US trade and safe passage in the Med thenceforward.

That would be one example of our 'Founders' doing precisely what W and Obama have been getting up to.

Another would be both 'Big George' Washington and Benjamin 'Bunga Bunga Party' Franklin operating their own espionage networks during the revolution. And both issued 'hits' on various people during that time when said people got a little too frisky. Not much mentioined in their official biographies or dwelt upon overmuch in the high schools. And they're about as founder-ish as they come.

[Midtowner]

That's about as revisionist an account of Tripoli as I've seen. We had at one time up to then spent as much as 1/6 of the budget on tribute and ransom and the Treaty of Tripoli included a payment of $60,000 for "ransom" (not "tribute") of the soldiers involved there. We didn't occupy Tripoli or attempt to change the government. We dealt with a rational enemy who decided a smaller payment than they had at first demanded would be cheaper than all of the assets they'd expend dealing with the American Navy and their mercenaries. And the piracy threat to American shipping was a huge economic issue with hundreds of American sailors being seized and presed into slavery.

What makes present day terrorism so bad is not the actual terror acts themselves, but the highly disproportionate response of the American government.

[cleller]

All successful attorneys spend 30 hours a week arguing on the internet.

They call it "voir dire practice".

[olevetonahill]

All successful attorneys spend 30 hours a week arguing on the internet.

Thats How he can Pay off those Loans so fast, Playin on the {Puter while Billing clients

[C&CDean]

Look ******... I worked yesterday to assemble a group of volunteers from two universities and create supply/donation drop off location at my college fraternity house. Those volunteers will be reporting at 9 AM for training by the Red Cross. I won't be able to join them because I still have people depending on me for their legal needs and I have a couple of trials to get ready for tomorrow. Please send a donation to the Red Cross by texting REDCROSS to 90999 and STFU. You know nothing about what I've done.

If Dean wants to open up his ignorant twat and spew venom, I'm happy to correct his BS. It's true that Dave Ramsey is wrong when it comes to student loans and it's true I paid $100K in 4 years. I'm still saving to pay off the penalty for early IRA withdrawal when it comes due next year, but I'm earning interest now instead of paying it.

**** off. I'll take Dave Ramsey's opinion WAY over yours chump. Besides, he ain't a ****ing liar. You are. You cannot correct me because you are wrong, and I am right. See how that works?

[KantoSooner]

That's about as revisionist an account of Tripoli as I've seen. We had at one time up to then spent as much as 1/6 of the budget on tribute and ransom and the Treaty of Tripoli included a payment of $60,000 for "ransom" (not "tribute") of the soldiers involved there. We didn't occupy Tripoli or attempt to change the government. We dealt with a rational enemy who decided a smaller payment than they had at first demanded would be cheaper than all of the assets they'd expend dealing with the American Navy and their mercenaries. And the piracy threat to American shipping was a huge economic issue with hundreds of American sailors being seized and presed into slavery.

What makes present day terrorism so bad is not the actual terror acts themselves, but the highly disproportionate response of the American government.

Well, let's agree that 'the Founders' were not the rigidly (dare we say 'Calvinistically') moralistic folk you purported in your earlier post. Those guys who wouldn't do ANYTHING that wasn't fully vetted by and transparent to 'The Public'. In fact, they played fast and loose with both laws and the constitution to get done what they needed to get done. And did so time after time. And, you know what? It's a naughty little secret that our system of government might just be designed to work that way. Constant tension and toing and froing. So, Bradley Manning might well find himself the focus of a supreme court case...and he might just be executed before it comes to be heard.

As to the 'disproportionate' response of the US government to acts of terror, I'd prefer you made that argument to a group of 9/11 survivors, you might find they have a disproportionate response to your disregard for the lives of their loved ones. There's value to azzholes around the world knowing that, push comes to shove, we will hunt them down and kill them, no matter how long it takes or how hard it is. Keeps the world balanced.

[okie52]

What makes present day terrorism so bad is not the actual terror acts themselves, but the highly disproportionate response of the American government.

The trade centers destroyed and the pentagon severely damaged along with 3,000 dead really wasn't that big of a deal.

[sappstuf]

The trade centers destroyed and the pentagon severely damaged along with 3,000 dead really wasn't that big of a deal.

You're still talking about that?

[okie52]

You're still talking about that?

I don't know why but it just popped into my head.

[Midtowner]

The trade centers destroyed and the pentagon severely damaged along with 3,000 dead really wasn't that big of a deal.

And what did Iraq have to do with that, exactly?

And how has invading Afghanistan and replacing its government for a few years done anything to prevent the next 9/11?

Has the Patriot Act protected us? How about those fancy TSA officers?

[yermom]

We apparently didn't bomb enough civilians to prevent the bombing in Boston

[okie52]

I didn't say Iraq had a thing to do with 9/11.

I also didn't say we properly pursued the Afghanistan war.

We should have obliterated Afghanistan and then left...even if we were guilty of war crimes through "collateral damage". And assured the Afghans that if it happened again we would obliterate their country again.

But, I'm sure that is a little draconian for your tastes as I'm sure you would rather pay them off to not attack us again.

[diverdog]

Watching Iraq over the past few weeks has convinced me it is the next Syria. Before it is all said and done I bet a million people will die.

[okie52]

Watching Iraq over the past few weeks has convinced me it is the next Syria. Before it is all said and done I bet a million people will die.

We shouldn't have intervened in Iraq and we shouldn't have intervened in Libya. Hopefully we don't make the same mistake with syria.

[C&CDean]

We apparently didn't bomb enough civilians to prevent the bombing in Boston

All kidding aside, this is it. It's the only thing that'll keep these savages from doing what they do.

[KantoSooner]

If we can ever get to the point that we, the Europeans and the Chinese stop buying their oil, we can simply ignore them and let them enjoy the fruits of religious fundamentalism that they so richly deserve. After a generation or two of ignorance, primitive living conditions, mutual suspicion and hatred, misogyny, disease and general misery, some goodly portion will ditch the mosque and join the modern world.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I think its more that you were asking a question that included both hemophiliac liberalism, and a defeatist and apologist outlook that is hard for me to conceive.

In August of 1945 we were not going to lose the war. The decision to be made was how to end a war with the smallest loss of life. If you think that's barbarous, go ahead. Or tell us a better way.my dad was in the Phillipines, awaiting an American invasion of Japan. He said he's never seen such euphoria when it was announce the US dropped two A-bombs instead of invading Japan, actually saving countless lives in japan, and virtually all the American troops that were scheduled to invade.

[KantoSooner]

If we're going to talk the atomic bombings, my fairly conservative neighborhood bar owner in Tokyo put it about right.

His comments, in no particular order:

1. If we'd (a Japanese person speaking, remember) had had it, we sure as hell would have used it on you.

2. It was a war, both sides were doing whatever it took to win.

3. By winning faster, you saved your own solidiers, which is the responsibility of your president and generals. You also saved a lot of Japanese.

4. By ending the war faster, you kept the Russians out of the main islands.

5. By ending the war faster, you saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops in the field from being slaughtered by the locals.

6. Through the fear generated in the Russians by your demonstration of the bomb, you got to dictate terms for the occupation of Japan and were able to turn most of the Pacific into an American lake...which was to be greatly preferred to any other alternatives.

7. If anyone has a right to bitch, it's the people who were there. Young kids from other cities, countries or cultures should go find their own cause or STFU.

I loved that old man. He had the fame to be the last Japanese captain sunk in WWII. He was first mate on a cargo ship in the Guilf of Thailand and they were engaged by a US sub. Once they were crippled, the captain shot himself in the head and left Miyake on the bridge. 19 years old. He decided "Eff it" and drove the ship onto the beach whereupon he and the rest of the sailors baled out.

Always poured an honest shot, too.

[olevetonahill]

If we're going to talk the atomic bombings, my fairly conservative neighborhood bar owner in Tokyo put it about right.

His comments, in no particular order:

1. If we'd (a Japanese person speaking, remember) had had it, we sure as hell would have used it on you.

2. It was a war, both sides were doing whatever it took to win.

3. By winning faster, you saved your own solidiers, which is the responsibility of your president and generals. You also saved a lot of Japanese.

4. By ending the war faster, you kept the Russians out of the main islands.

5. By ending the war faster, you saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops in the field from being slaughtered by the locals.

6. Through the fear generated in the Russians by your demonstration of the bomb, you got to dictate terms for the occupation of Japan and were able to turn most of the Pacific into an American lake...which was to be greatly preferred to any other alternatives.

7. If anyone has a right to bitch, it's the people who were there. Young kids from other cities, countries or cultures should go find their own cause or STFU.

I loved that old man. He had the fame to be the last Japanese captain sunk in WWII. He was first mate on a cargo ship in the Guilf of Thailand and they were engaged by a US sub. Once they were crippled, the captain shot himself in the head and left Miyake on the bridge. 19 years old. He decided "Eff it" and drove the ship onto the beach whereupon he and the rest of the sailors baled out.

Always poured an honest shot, too.

Id Drank a Sake with him

[rock on sooner]

Sounds like a movie in there somewhere....

[KantoSooner]

Id Drank a Sake with him

he ran a little yakitori place, charcoal grilled skewers of chicken along with drinks. Introduced me to 'awamori' which is distilled black cane molasses. Runs about 120 proof. tastes like white rum. A Happy drink on a summer's evening, sitting around, listening to the Japanese versions of several guys around here bitch about the Koreans, the Chinese, the Russians, basically everybody who's not Japanese.

[olevetonahill]

he ran a little yakitori place, charcoal grilled skewers of chicken along with drinks. Introduced me to 'awamori' which is distilled black cane molasses. Runs about 120 proof. tastes like white rum. A Happy drink on a summer's evening, sitting around, listening to the Japanese versions of several guys around here bitch about the Koreans, the Chinese, the Russians, basically everybody who's not Japanese.

So the Asian version of OVJ :single_eye:

[olevetonahill]

he ran a little yakitori place, charcoal grilled skewers of chicken along with drinks. Introduced me to 'awamori' which is distilled black cane molasses. Runs about 120 proof. tastes like white rum. A Happy drink on a summer's evening, sitting around, listening to the Japanese versions of several guys around here bitch about the Koreans, the Chinese, the Russians, basically everybody who's not Japanese.

So the Asian version of OVJ :single_eye:

[diverdog]

he ran a little yakitori place, charcoal grilled skewers of chicken along with drinks. Introduced me to 'awamori' which is distilled black cane molasses. Runs about 120 proof. tastes like white rum. A Happy drink on a summer's evening, sitting around, listening to the Japanese versions of several guys around here bitch about the Koreans, the Chinese, the Russians, basically everybody who's not Japanese.

did you ever try grilled chicken feet? I thought they were pretty tasty.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

did you ever try grilled chicken feet? I thought they were pretty tasty.Pretty much like grilled bone, no?

[KantoSooner]

grilled (or barbecued) chicken feet are awesome. All cartilage and skin and sauce without having to mess with dry meat. They are to wings what wings are to the rest of the chicken.

[KantoSooner]

And yes, Vet, very much like OVJ.

[olevetonahill]

grilled (or barbecued) chicken feet are awesome. All cartilage and skin and sauce without having to mess with dry meat. They are to wings what wings are to the rest of the chicken.

What the hell Ya do with em? Pick yer teeth?

[KantoSooner]

bite the skin off the bones. And, admit it, your favorite part of fried or bbq'd chicken is the skin.

[olevetonahill]

bite the skin off the bones. And, admit it, your favorite part of fried or bbq'd chicken is the skin.

Not really , I usually take the skin off before cookin unless Im makin Chicken an Dumplin. then after its Cooked I toss it.

[KantoSooner]

You're missing the best part. Crispy chicken skin, mmmm, mmmm, good. Potato chips of the Gods.

[olevetonahill]

You're missing the best part. Crispy chicken skin, mmmm, mmmm, good. Potato chips of the Gods.

Yea, And Mother Goose will be gettin on yerass, :pirate:

[KantoSooner]

I'm trolling so hard, it's epic.

[KantoSooner]

But it's part of a cunning plan: give up chicken skin, frying in lard, salt, sweet tea and other unnecessaries in order to save liquor, red meat, tortilla chips, bacon and other truly non-negotiable items.

[rock on sooner]

So the Asian version of OVJ :single_eye:

Dont sound strong enuf...:devilish:

[okie52]

NYT: Fox Case Proves Obama Administration Has No Respect for Press
Wednesday, 22 May 2013 09:33 AM
By Lisa Barron

The New York Times has blasted the Obama White House’s move to label a Fox News reporter a possible “co-conspirator” in a criminal investigation of a news leak about North Korea’s nuclear missile program.

The administration has “moved beyond protecting government secrets to threatening fundamental freedoms of the press to gather news,” the newspaper said in an editorial on Wednesday.

The incident involves James Rosen, chief Washington correspondent for Fox News.
After Rosen reported in 2009 that Pyongyang planned to launch a missile in response to United Nations condemnation of its nuclear tests, the Justice Department investigated the article’s source and indicted Stephen Jin-Woo Kim, a State Department security adviser, on charges of leaking classified information.

That was not the end of the investigation, however. Federal prosecutors also asked a federal judge for permission to troll through Rosen’s personal e-mails, arguing that “there is probable cause to believe” he is “an aider and abettor and/or co-conspirator” in the leak,” according to the Times.

An affidavit filed with the judge also said that Rosen tried to elicit information by “employing flattery and playing to Mr. Kim’s vanity and ego,” notes the newspaper.

“That would hardly be a first in the relationship between journalists and government officials, and, certainly, it is not grounds for a conspiracy charge,” the Times said in its editorial.

Although Rosen was not charged, the FBI request for his e-mail account was granted in late May 2010. “The government was allowed to rummage through Mr. Rosen’s e-mails for at least 30 days,” writes the Times.

“The Rosen case follows other signs that the administration has gone overboard in its zeal to find and muzzle insiders,” it continues, pointing to last week’s revelations that the government had seized two months’ worth of phone records for Associated Press staffers, partly to determine the source of a leak about a report involving a foiled terrorist plot in Yemen.

Six current and former administration officials have been indicted under the old Espionage Act for leaking classified information to the press and public, the paper adds.

“Obama administration officials often talk about the balance between protecting secrets and protecting the constitutional rights of a free press,” concludes the Times. “Accusing a reporter of being a ‘co-conspirator,’ on top of other zealous and secretive investigations, shows a heavy tilt toward secrecy and insufficient concern about a free press.”

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/times-fox-rosen-obama/2013/05/22/id/505794#ixzz2U2IJcpTw
.

[olevetonahill]

But it's part of a cunning plan: give up chicken skin, frying in lard, salt, sweet tea and other unnecessaries in order to save liquor, red meat, tortilla chips, bacon and other truly non-negotiable items.

Yer a wise man. Or is that a Wiseass?:D

[KantoSooner]

equivalency: it tastes better, it's not as strong. Life is all about the trade offs...

[KantoSooner]

Yer a wise man. Or is that a Wiseass?:D

I prefer smartass, it covers the bases.

[olevetonahill]

I prefer smartass, it covers the bases.

Heh, Im Just anass.

[rock on sooner]

Heh, Im Just anass.

:biggrin:

[FirstandGoal]

Yea, And Mother Goose will be gettin on yerass, :pirate:

Heh, as if you aren't enough of a full-time job as it is.


But it's part of a cunning plan: give up chicken skin, frying in lard, salt, sweet tea and other unnecessaries in order to save liquor, red meat, tortilla chips, bacon and other truly non-negotiable items.

Most definitely in on the liquor, a solid maybe on the red meat, hells yeah to the tortilla chips, and the only bacon that enters my abode is turkey bacon.

[olevetonahill]

Heh, as if you aren't enough of a full-time job as it is.



Most definitely in on the liquor, a solid maybe on the red meat, hells yeah to the tortilla chips, and the only bacon that enters my abode is turkey bacon.

See My sig.

[diverdog]

You're missing the best part. Crispy chicken skin, mmmm, mmmm, good. Potato chips of the Gods.

Man that sounds good.

[OU68]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Better_with_bacon_Make_your_Memorial_Day_picnic_sp read/20130522_39_D1_CUTLIN709001

For Vet :pig:

[olevetonahill]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Better_with_bacon_Make_your_Memorial_Day_picnic_sp read/20130522_39_D1_CUTLIN709001

For Vet :pig:

Heh done did find These.
http://wfld.images.worldnow.com/images/22263380_BG1.jpg

[KantoSooner]

Go to Lovera's in Krebs.

They will have sausages.

You will buy them.

You will grill them.

You will eat them.

All will be good and you will be happy.

It has been spoken.

[olevetonahill]

Go to Lovera's in Krebs.

They will have sausages.

You will buy them.

You will grill them.

You will eat them.

All will be good and you will be happy.

It has been spoken.

Where are they. I havnt been that way in a Long time.
Used to go to Petes and drank the choc when it was still bootlegged.

[TAFBSooner]

We apparently didn't bomb enough civilians to prevent the bombing in Boston

I'm sure Putin would have allowed our assets overflight rights to carpet bomb Chechnya, if we'd asked real nice . . .

'mom, do you think they even realize killing civilians radicalizes more wanna-be bombers?

[KantoSooner]

Guys, that striking targets who are embedded with civilians will make said civilians mad is kind of obvious. Here's one that perhaps has eluded you: sitting and taking vicious, murderous attacks from people who are deeply involved in Thug/Bully behavior will not discourage either those actors nor will it cause sympathy for us among the civilians in that part of the world.

Now, missile strikes may or may not be the best means. It certainly is fast and you do not risk captives or your own casualties. Personally, I would have preferred, post 9/11, to have taken some people out of special ops units, our of CIA direct action groups and recruited/trained more until we had a completely black force of around 200,000 including support, clerical, etc. And then turn it loose on whoever the President, in consultation with the Speaker, the Majority Leader and representatives of the two major parties, decided needed to go.
Run your assasination rate up to maybe 10-15 kills a day and hold it there for a couple of decades. Terrorists, drug dealers, human traffickers, etc etc etc. And, if you run across a guy like a drug dealer who keeps a bunch of cash and gold at home? You take it and use it fund your operations. Because you need utter secrecy and you are not looking to prosecute anyone anyway.

As Colonel Kurtz said, "With ten thousand such men, our problems here would be over very soon."

[KantoSooner]

Where are they. I havnt been that way in a Long time.
Used to go to Petes and drank the choc when it was still bootlegged.

Just ddown the street from Pete's. I forget exact details, google 'em.

[olevetonahill]

Just ddown the street from Pete's. I forget exact details, google 'em.

Its prolly a 2 hour drive round trip, will it be worth it?

[okie52]

Krebs is only an hour drive for you Vet? I cant believe your not there more often.

[olevetonahill]

Krebs is only an hour drive for you Vet? I cant believe your not there more often.

Heh, A few years back i was pretty much told to stay out Of McAlester :pirate: So I dont normally go that way.

[rock on sooner]

Its prolly a 2 hour drive round trip, will it be worth it?

Jus guessin, mindya, but Ima thinkin Vet wunt member anyways!:excitement:

[KantoSooner]

You like olives? They've got probly 25 kinds, fresh. Cheese? ditto. Then there are the sausages. Etc. These people take their food seriously. All in a little country grocery store building with the smokehouse/cheese barn out back. Very cool vibe.

[okie52]

Heh, A few years back i was pretty much told to stay out Of McAlester :pirate: So I dont normally go that way.

Heh...well keep the moonshine at home this time!!!