So I guess the butcher got convicted?

[C&CDean]

Just hit the hotel in Denver and saw on the tube the abortion ********** was convicted of 3 counts of murder 1. My vote is to end his filthy life with a pair of scissors to the neck. POS murdering abortionist scum.

[C&CDean]

BTW, Gloria Shay was born night before last to my second son and his wife. Grandchild #7. How can somebody kill one of these little things? Sheez.

[achiro]

I bet a lot of other late term abortion butchers are crapping their pants today.

[C&CDean]

Nothing short of Josef Mengele wannabes. And all the good folk on the left go "go doctor, go doctor, kill another one, kill another one..." WTF is wrong with people?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

He prolly shouldn't have done the post fetus phase life taking. Not even the supreme Court wants to call that something other than murder.

[Soonerjeepman]

a slow justice, but justice non the less. I'm not a big capital punishment guy...honestly it isn't punishment...they are dead. I'd say just let him rot in a jail cell, let him be a part of the general population. This dude will get his own in the afterlife I'm sure.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Nothing short of Josef Mengele wannabes. And all the good folk on the left go "go doctor, go doctor, kill another one, kill another one..." WTF is wrong with people?They think there are FAR too many people in the world and are DEAD serious about their concern for overpopulation. It seems.


Yeah, you don't hear hardly any of them(if any at all) volunteer to leave this overcrowded earth.

[OU_Sooners75]

I know none of the pro-choice folks have commented...but...

How can we live in a nation where it is against the law to destroy Bald Eagle eggs, but it is perfectly legal for most abortions?

Apparently in this nation, life, of a bird, begins when a bird's egg is fertilized and laid, but life for a human doesn't begin until late into the second trimester of the pregnancy (normally around 24 weeks after conception).

What a hypocrisy!

[Midtowner]

Interesting.. if women laid eggs, I don't think the pro-choice folks would have much of an argument either.

But they don't. They gestate for 9 months and it's part of our basic civil liberties for a woman to have control over her own body.

And from what I've read about this fella, yeah, give him the needle. Hell... while we're at it, I'll go on record and say I'm in favor of a straight up ban on abortions following 25 weeks unless they can get a judge to sign an order that it's a medical necessity to protect the life of the mother.

That law would pass muster right now according to Casey.

But what do we get from our legislators? Transvaginal probe BS? They want to pass BS unconstitutional laws when anyone with a passing knowledge of constitutional law could draft a law right now which would shut folks like this sicko down immediately. Blame your "conservative" politicians who would rather have the issue to whine about than a solution.

[diverdog]

BTW, Gloria Shay was born night before last to my second son and his wife. Grandchild #7. How can somebody kill one of these little things? Sheez.

#7....that is awesome. Congrats. There is nothing more precious than children.

Do any of your grandson's hunt?

[OU_Sooners75]

Interesting.. if women laid eggs, I don't think the pro-choice folks would have much of an argument either.

But they don't. They gestate for 9 months and it's part of our basic civil liberties for a woman to have control over her own body.

And from what I've read about this fella, yeah, give him the needle. Hell... while we're at it, I'll go on record and say I'm in favor of a straight up ban on abortions following 25 weeks unless they can get a judge to sign an order that it's a medical necessity to protect the life of the mother.

That law would pass muster right now according to Casey.

But what do we get from our legislators? Transvaginal probe BS? They want to pass BS unconstitutional laws when anyone with a passing knowledge of constitutional law could draft a law right now which would shut folks like this sicko down immediately. Blame your "conservative" politicians who would rather have the issue to whine about than a solution.

Yet, women do lay eggs, they just don't fall out of the body into a nest.

Sex education 101: Sperm enters into an EGG.

Lets get real here. Not all bird eggs that have been fertilized produce young either.

[OU_Sooners75]

Also Midtowner, you are not going out on a limb by saying ban all abortions after 25 weeks.

That is essentially how it is in Roe vs Wade. RvW state (paraphrasing here) that abortion is okay until late 2nd trimester.

IMO, when you can hear a heart beat, then life is present. And IMO, abortions should be banned once a heart beat is detectable at the very most. I would prefer abortions be illegal all together though, based on my religious views.

[Midtowner]

Yet, women do lay eggs, they just don't fall out of the body into a nest.

Stop being such a jackass.

Seriously.

What the hell do you think it means to LAY an egg?

[Midtowner]

Also Midtowner, you are not going out on a limb by saying ban all abortions after 25 weeks.

That is essentially how it is in Roe vs Wade. RvW state (paraphrasing here) that abortion is okay until late 2nd trimester.

Roe v. Wade isn't the law and hasn't been for a long time. It's Casey now and it says states can ban abortions up to the point of viability (25 weeks is a good number) except in cases where the health of the mother (the exception that eats the rule) is a concern. I'm saying fight the battle on deciding what "health of the mother" means rather than all this transvaginal probing BS>


IMO, when you can hear a heart beat, then life is present. And IMO, abortions should be banned once a heart beat is detectable at the very most. I would prefer abortions be illegal all together though, based on my religious views.

That's your opinion, not the law, so good for you.

[OU_Sooners75]

Stop being such a jackass.

Seriously.

What the hell do you think it means to LAY an egg?

Stop being a sensitive little ******rocket.

Human's version of egg laying is when an egg drops from the ovaries into the Fallopian tubes.

[Midtowner]

Stop being a sensitive little ******rocket.

Human's version of egg laying is when an egg drops from the ovaries into the Fallopian tubes.

The difference is that it's not still part of the hen's body.

Are you retarded? Did you think that they do caesareans on chickens so you can have an omelette?

[OU_Sooners75]

That's your opinion, not the law, so good for you.

So 'Casey" defines it a little bit further than RvW. YAY.

And yes, its my opinion. I don't give a rats *** what the law states...My opinion trumps law (as long as my opinion isn't breaking the law). ;)

[OU_Sooners75]

The difference is that it's not still part of the hen's body.

Are you retarded? Did you think that they do caesareans on chickens so you can have an omelette?

Wow, your reading comprehension levels are astounding.

[Midtowner]

So 'Casey" defines it a little bit further than RvW. YAY.

No, you and everyone else who states that Roe is the final word on abortion law just demonstrates that they don't know the first damn thing about it.

Casey IS the law and it departs significantly from the rigid trimester framework, which is a big win for the anti abortion folks, so I figured you'd have heard about it....?

[Harry Beanbag]

...and it's part of our basic civil liberties for a woman to have control over her own body.

This is the worst argument the pro-kill crowd has since it's not the woman's body that is being murdered, it is another person. Since you're a retarded troll though I'll give you a pass.

[olevetonahill]

BTW, Gloria Shay was born night before last to my second son and his wife. Grandchild #7. How can somebody kill one of these little things? Sheez.

Cause they would Kill em to save a Puppy .

[olevetonahill]

[QUOTE=Midtowner;3607847]Interesting.. if women laid eggs, I don't think the pro-choice folks would have much of an argument either.

But they don't. They gestate for 9 months and it's part of our basic civil liberties for a woman to have control over her own body.
[QUOTE]

heres the Deal matlock, None of us say she cant control HER body. Most all us say Control it all Ya want.Just quit ****in before Ya get knocked up.After yer Knocked the **** up It AINT JUST her body anymore

[olevetonahill]

Stop being such a jackass.

Seriously.

What the hell do you think it means to LAY an egg?

Stop being such a jackass.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Just hit the hotel in Denver and saw on the tube the abortion ********** was convicted of 3 counts of murder 1. My vote is to end his filthy life with a pair of scissors to the neck. POS murdering abortionist scum.

and the fate of his co-conspirators?

[okie52]

and the fate of his co-conspirators?

Assign them to handle all the illegals births in the US.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Assign them to handle all the illegals births in the US.

hijackin again

[OU_Sooners75]

No, you and everyone else who states that Roe is the final word on abortion law just demonstrates that they don't know the first damn thing about it.

Casey IS the law and it departs significantly from the rigid trimester framework, which is a big win for the anti abortion folks, so I figured you'd have heard about it....?

WOW...I knew you had problems with comprehension...but seriously?

I never once said RvW was law. It was however, the SCOTUS decision that determined abortion was legal, or at least constitutional.

Seriously though, you need to head back to elementary school and start taking reading comprehension classes.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

This is the worst argument the pro-kill crowd has since it's not the woman's body that is being murdered, it is another person...Stating this obvious reality for the umpteenth time will get you nowhere with the pro-murder crowd.

[sappstuf]

Interesting.. if women laid eggs, I don't think the pro-choice folks would have much of an argument either.

But they don't. They gestate for 9 months and it's part of our basic civil liberties for a woman to have control over her own body.

And from what I've read about this fella, yeah, give him the needle. Hell... while we're at it, I'll go on record and say I'm in favor of a straight up ban on abortions following 25 weeks unless they can get a judge to sign an order that it's a medical necessity to protect the life of the mother.

That law would pass muster right now according to Casey.

But what do we get from our legislators? Transvaginal probe BS? They want to pass BS unconstitutional laws when anyone with a passing knowledge of constitutional law could draft a law right now which would shut folks like this sicko down immediately. Blame your "conservative" politicians who would rather have the issue to whine about than a solution.

I guess the baby that is 24 weeks and 6 days is SOL in your world. Can you at least explain the biological difference between 25 weeks and 24 weeks and 6 days?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I guess the baby that is 24 weeks and 6 days is SOL in your world. Can you at least explain the biological difference between 25 weeks and 24 weeks and 6 days?haha. what a crock, huh!

[Midtowner]

I guess the baby that is 24 weeks and 6 days is SOL in your world. Can you at least explain the biological difference between 25 weeks and 24 weeks and 6 days?

After 25 weeks, there's at least a 50% survival rate. At 24 weeks and prior, chances are not good. If the anti choice folks want to actually win court cases, that is the issue they should be attacking. Not the stupid stuff they are currently going after. Either they're just constitutionally unintelligent or they would rather have the issue than the solution.

[XingTheRubicon]

I still don't see why conservatives get so bent out of shape concerning abortion. It works out perfectly as far as I'm concerned...put planned parenthood express locations in walmart and costco stores in liberal cities and let nature take its course.

[sappstuf]

After 25 weeks, there's at least a 50% survival rate. At 24 weeks and prior, chances are not good. If the anti choice folks want to actually win court cases, that is the issue they should be attacking. Not the stupid stuff they are currently going after. Either they're just constitutionally unintelligent or they would rather have the issue than the solution.

What is the exact difference between the one day? Does it shoot up from 1% to 50% plus in a single day? Please let us know.

[sappstuf]

I still don't see why conservatives get so bent out of shape concerning abortion. It works out perfectly as far as I'm concerned...put planned parenthood express locations in walmart and costco stores in liberal cities and let nature take its course.

Of course that was the entire purpose of Planned Parenthood and its eugenics beginnings. Get rid of the undesirables...

[Soonerjeepman]

[QUOTE=Midtowner;3607847]Interesting.. if women laid eggs, I don't think the pro-choice folks would have much of an argument either.

But they don't. They gestate for 9 months and it's part of our basic civil liberties for a woman to have control over her own body.
[QUOTE]

heres the Deal matlock, None of us say she cant control HER body. Most all us say Control it all Ya want.Just quit ****in before Ya get knocked up.After yer Knocked the **** up It AINT JUST her body anymore

excellent point...(now here comes the rape and incest comments...which total about 4% of abortions from last I saw.)

[SoonerBBall]

You religious nuts kill me. Tell me, why would you rather a child be born into unwantedness and suffering instead of being aborted and going directly to heaven to live eternally in glory, health, and contentment with its maker?

[olevetonahill]

You religious nuts kill me. Tell me, why would you rather a child be born into unwantedness and suffering instead of being aborted and going directly to heaven to live eternally in glory, health, and contentment with its maker?

I aint a "Religious nut"
Im just sayin If its Ok to kill a baby , Then why aint it ok for Me to Kill arseholes?

[achiro]

You religious nuts kill me. Tell me, why would you rather a child be born into unwantedness and suffering instead of being aborted and going directly to heaven to live eternally in glory, health, and contentment with its maker?

Lots of folks would love to adopt an American baby. Your point is stupid.

[yermom]

sure, as long as they are white...

my personal favorite is the murder laws. it's not murder if the woman asks a doctor to do it, but if someone else kills her baby, it's murder. somehow wantedness changes the law, magically.

[Harry Beanbag]

Some people have morality based on religion. Some people are not religious but have morality based on an internal feeling of right and wrong, you could call it a "soul" I suppose. And then there are some people that don't have any if that, those people think murdering unborn children is fine based on economics, politics, or selfishness.

[achiro]

sure, as long as they are white...
That's why over 100,000 babies are adopted from China and Africa every year.

[FaninAma]

BTW, Gloria Shay was born night before last to my second son and his wife. Grandchild #7. How can somebody kill one of these little things? Sheez.
Congrats again Gramps. Congrats to Aaron and Lea.

it is pretty disturbing that there are individuals out there who can perform abortions without any sense of remorse.

[sappstuf]

sure, as long as they are white...


That's why over 100,000 babies are adopted from China and Africa every year.

Ouch. A talking point just got aborted..

[jkjsooner]

Just hit the hotel in Denver and saw on the tube the abortion ********** was convicted of 3 counts of murder 1. My vote is to end his filthy life with a pair of scissors to the neck. POS murdering abortionist scum.

I was thinking about this the other day. I think pro-life states should adopt a law that unless the mother's safety would be compromised, all abortions should be performed with the intent of doing everything possible to save the baby's life. Obviously at the early stages it would be pointless but at later stages you could require that the abortion be done in a way that doesn't kill the baby directly (either inside the womb or outside) and require that extraordinary measures be taken to prolong the life.

The point would be that the mother's "rights" are unchanged. She can divorce herself from the baby and absolve all responsibility.

The point is to reduce abortions (with the mother knowing that her baby may live if she chooses to abort late) and possibly save a handful of children.

It could be a novel approach that could possibly pass SCOTUS muster. I don't know much about the science of it though. I suppose some could argue that attempting to save such an early term delivered baby could be cruel.

Just throwing thoughts out there...

[FaninAma]

You religious nuts kill me. Tell me, why would you rather a child be born into unwantedness and suffering instead of being aborted and going directly to heaven to live eternally in glory, health, and contentment with its maker?

Please tell me you are joking. You aren't really serious are you? If you are going to try and insult religious groups at least have some semblance semblance of knowledge about what Christian doctrine about unborn children and children in general. Your statement is ignorant on so many levels. Sigh.

[jkjsooner]

What is the exact difference between the one day? Does it shoot up from 1% to 50% plus in a single day? Please let us know.

What's the difference between a guy who is 20 years + 364 days old and a guy who is 21 years old? Is one significantly more responsible than the other?

The fact is, if a line is to be drawn, you have to draw it somewhere. It's always going to seem arbitrary but there's no real way around it - short of having some third party expert decide survivability percentages or maturity level.

You could push the line much earlier so there's no doubt about survivability but it would still be an arbitrary line.

Also, I think you're missing Midtowner's point. He was pushing for something that could reduce abortions and pass SCOTUS muster.

[Midtowner]

What is the exact difference between the one day? Does it shoot up from 1% to 50% plus in a single day? Please let us know.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fetus+survival+rate+chart

[jkjsooner]

Lots of folks would love to adopt an American baby. Your point is stupid.

While this is true, prior to Roe vs Wade there was more supply than demand. (Ugh, I feel dirty using economic terminology when referring to babies but it does apply here.)

Then again adoption is much less stigmatized now. It's odd how adoption used to be something that was shameful and kept secret.

[Midtowner]

sure, as long as they are white...

my personal favorite is the murder laws. it's not murder if the woman asks a doctor to do it, but if someone else kills her baby, it's murder. somehow wantedness changes the law, magically.

That murder law was created solely for the purpose of making an anti-choice argument and it has only been the law in most states as of fairly recently. It's as arbitrary as anything else.

[yermom]

That's why over 100,000 babies are adopted from China and Africa every year.

are those American babies?

[jkjsooner]

Please tell me you are joking. You aren't really serious are you? If you are going to try and insult religious groups at least have some semblance semblance of knowledge about what Christian doctrine about unborn children and children in general. Your statement is ignorant on so many levels. Sigh.

What is that Christian doctrine? Most churches believe children will go to heaven no matter what. I don't know about catholics and their original sin but they hardly speak for all of Christianity.

[Midtowner]

Please tell me you are joking. You aren't really serious are you? If you are going to try and insult religious groups at least have some semblance semblance of knowledge about what Christian doctrine about unborn children and children in general. Your statement is ignorant on so many levels. Sigh.

I think the shoe fits.

In the reddest (most Christian) states, we are anti-abortion overwhelmingly. We also, as a rule, chronically underfund our child welfare services. I mean how is it that here in Oklahoma County, land of the lowest unemployment around, our child welfare system relies on volunteer CASA workers and volunteer attorneys just to get by? That's really scary and awful. Especially considering the kinds of trauma these kiddos experience and how the system fails for lack of resources so often.

Y'all are wanting to bring these children into the world, but you'd rather have a .25% tax cut than fund things like education and child welfare.

[sappstuf]

What's the difference between a guy who is 20 years + 364 days old and a guy who is 21 years old? Is one significantly more responsible than the other?

The fact is, if a line is to be drawn, you have to draw it somewhere. It's always going to seem arbitrary but there's no real way around it - short of having some third party expert decide survivability percentages or maturity level.

You could push the line much earlier so there's no doubt about survivability but it would still be an arbitrary line.

Also, I think you're missing Midtowner's point. He was pushing for something that could reduce abortions and pass SCOTUS muster.

So which side of the line do you want to be on? On one side we have a 24 weeker born, gasping for breath, crying before getting its neck snipped.

The other doesn't.

Europe limits most abortions to 12 weeks.. Especially ones of convenience. Why wouldn't that pass SCOTUS muster?

[sappstuf]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fetus+survival+rate+chart

From the first link in your search:

24 weeks 40-70%

That seems a little better than your claim of "At 24 weeks and prior, chances are not good.".

[SoonerBBall]

Please tell me you are joking. You aren't really serious are you? If you are going to try and insult religious groups at least have some semblance semblance of knowledge about what Christian doctrine about unborn children and children in general. Your statement is ignorant on so many levels. Sigh.

Hahaha. Sigh all you want, but I was raised in the Christian church (Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, and Southern Baptist) so I am well aware of their beliefs concerning the immortal souls of the innocents (i.e. never had a chance to know Jesus). It is hypocricy at its finest to claim to have the best interest of unborn children at heart while denying them the peace of innocent death and consigning the vast majority to poverty and unwantedness.

It also speaks volume about the foundation of your argument to attack my knowledge of Christianity other than the other, far more obvious holes in my statement. Harry at least tried, but subsequently failed when falsely dividing the issue into those who place a inherent value on human life without religious faith and those who want to murder itty-bitty babies because they are evil.

[jkjsooner]

So which side of the line do you want to be on? On one side we have a 24 weeker born, gasping for breath, crying before getting its neck snipped.

The other doesn't.

Europe limits most abortions to 12 weeks.. Especially ones of convenience. Why wouldn't that pass SCOTUS muster?

I don't believe in abortions except for the cases where the mother is at risk or the fetus is not viable. I'm unsure about rape. I'm also not sure about cases where the abortion occurs prior to cell differentiation but I understand others will disagree with me on this one.

Anyway, this is beside the point. You seemed to be concerned about there being an arbitrary line drawn somewhere. These arbitrary lines are unavoidable and exist throughout laws whether they be age based, weight based (drug possesion for distribution), or whatever. Every time you draw a line there's going to be a point right before and a point right after the line. In every case it's going to appear arbitrary that these two points are treated differently but of course laws require arbitrary lines to be drawn.

Your criticism on these arbitrary lines was what I addressing not abortion.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The arbitrary line situation avoids addressing the nature of the entity, which is human life, of course.

[Midtowner]

Also, I think you're missing Midtowner's point. He was pushing for something that could reduce abortions and pass SCOTUS muster.

Right. So instead of flailing around with stupid/silly legislation which is obviously unconstitutional and results in groups like the ACLU raking in millions of dollars in attorney fees from the taxpayers (civil rights cases require the state to pay attorney fees in those kinds of cases), why not attack the actual grey area which the SCOTUS pretty much greenlit legislation to attack? You win by gaining a foothold and then expanding a new rule, you don't win by stupid **** like requiring transvaginal probes and making mom hear the fetal heart beat and that sort of nonsense. I'm not married to 25 weeks, but it'd probably be about the most defensible position to gain a foothold. From there, you dial it back to 20 weeks and see if that passes muster, then 15, then 6, etc. I would disagree personally with that, but that's how a smart legislature would attack a constitutional issue and at least have a prayer of making some new law. Anyone with a passing familiarity with Casey and progeny should be able to point to this time area as well as the "health of the mother" and see those as the fertile ground to make new law. If after 25 or howevermany weeks, abortions only happen when a mother can get a judge to sign an order allowing a late term abortion upon showing that should the pregnancy continue, she will be in mortal or serious PHYSICAL peril (let's ditch the mental health loophole), I think that might stand a fair chance.

It's not rocket science, that's how a smart Republican party would attack Casey. But the Republican party is dumb. They'd rather play games and pass unconstitutional BS which never sees the light of day and pads the ACLU's pocketbook.

[Midtowner]

The arbitrary line situation avoids addressing the nature of the entity, which is human life, of course.

That's been dealt with by the Court and will likely never resolve this to your satisfaction.

The viable debatable issue is now as to when the state's power to protect that life can kick in and if so, to what degree.

[OU68]

Hahaha. Sigh all you want, but I was raised in the Christian church (Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, and Southern Baptist) so I am well aware of their beliefs concerning the immortal souls of the innocents (i.e. never had a chance to know Jesus). It is hypocricy at its finest to claim to have the best interest of unborn children at heart while denying them the peace of innocent death and consigning the vast majority to poverty and unwantedness.

It also speaks volume about the foundation of your argument to attack my knowledge of Christianity other than the other, far more obvious holes in my statement. Harry at least tried, but subsequently failed when falsely dividing the issue into those who place a inherent value on human life without religious faith and those who want to murder itty-bitty babies because they are evil.

Well, there is that silly commandment about not committing murder.

[SoonerBBall]

Well, there is that silly commandment about not committing murder.

There. That is a much better argument than Faninama's. Do you support the death penalty? The majority of Christians do, so that would invalidate that argument pretty soundly. Do you support sending our troops off to war to fight and murder other soldiers? The majority of Christians do, so that would also invalidate the argument as well. It still is terribly hypocritical from the vast majority of right wing religious types.

[OU68]

There. That is a much better argument than Faninama's. Do you support the death penalty? The majority of Christians do, so that would invalidate that argument pretty soundly. Do you support sending our troops off to war to fight and murder other soldiers? The majority of Christians do, so that would also invalidate the argument as well. It still is terribly hypocritical from the vast majority of right wing religious types.

The death penalty is not murder - based on your background, I'm sure that you've been taught that "Thou shalt not kill" is not a good translation. And yes, I do support the death penalty and come from a Bible Church/Baptist Church background.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

There. That is a much better argument than Faninama's. Do you support the death penalty? The majority of Christians do, so that would invalidate that argument pretty soundly. Do you support sending our troops off to war to fight and murder other soldiers? The majority of Christians do, so that would also invalidate the argument as well. It still is terribly hypocritical from the vast majority of right wing religious types.where's the winky icon?

[olevetonahill]

How ever the LIbs spin this it dont Matter the Good Murdering Doc took Life with No appeals over taking a chance on the DP

He's gone Fini, No more Dead babies from his evil hands.
http://news.yahoo.com/convicted-pa-abortion-doctor-gets-life-prison-201005368.html

[Midtowner]

Well, there is that silly commandment about not committing murder.

The distinction between murdering and killing is a significant one.

[FaninAma]

.

[FaninAma]

What is that Christian doctrine? Most churches believe children will go to heaven no matter what. I don't know about catholics and their original sin but they hardly speak for all of Christianity.
Are you really going to stick with that line of argument? What about euthanasia on
irreversibly brain-damaged children and other "unwanted" children that end up in
long term care facilities? How about adults in similiar conditions?

your comments are silly and superfluous.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Well, there is that silly commandment about not committing murder.that's religion, and is up to the individual's beliefs, doncha know?!

[Chuck Bao]

In Biblical times, unwanted babies were just thrown out with the trash, left to die of exposure among the refuse. I'm not aware of any Bible verse that explicitly says that this is wrong or a sin. Of course, they had slaves back then and the owner could murder his slaves, but that would be more like killing livestock, which wasn't a sin.

Interesting topic about how church doctrine has evolved over time while the pick-and-choose religious crowd wants to pretend that it was important all along. Don't get me wrong. The creation of a soul by our creator is a really, really important component of current modern day faith structure. The fact though remains that those who wrote our textbook Bible apparently didn't see it that way or they would have mentioned it.

[SoonerBBall]

The death penalty is not murder - based on your background, I'm sure that you've been taught that "Thou shalt not kill" is not a good translation. And yes, I do support the death penalty and come from a Bible Church/Baptist Church background.

Oh really? The death penalty is not murder? It is the premeditated killing of an individual against their will. That is the precise definition of murder. The same with murdering enemy soldiers on the battle field. All premeditated. I happen to have no problem with either type of murder listed above, but trying to dance around it with semantics is exactly why all of this is so hypocritical.

[jkjsooner]

Are you really going to stick with that line of argument? About euthanasia on
irreversibly damaged children and other "unwanted" children that end up in
long term care facilities? How about adults in similiar conditions?

your comments are silly and superfulous.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. The post of mine did not in any way defend abortion. You are assuming way too much.

Let me back up. Here are the posts and responses.


You religious nuts kill me. Tell me, why would you rather a child be born into unwantedness and suffering instead of being aborted and going directly to heaven to live eternally in glory, health, and contentment with its maker?


Please tell me you are joking. You aren't really serious are you? If you are going to try and insult religious groups at least have some semblance semblance of knowledge about what Christian doctrine about unborn children and children in general. Your statement is ignorant on so many levels. Sigh.


What is that Christian doctrine? Most churches believe children will go to heaven no matter what. I don't know about catholics and their original sin but they hardly speak for all of Christianity.

My reading of your post was that you implied that according to Christian doctrine unborn children do not go to heaven. My response was merely a disagreement on that point.

None of this means I supported SoonerBBall's original post. When I respond to a post I'm responded only to the point made in that post. Don't assume anything else.


I've said this before and I think it relevant here. When I see someone state something I disagree with or that is factually incorrect, I will call them out on it. I'll do so whether I agree or disagree with them on the larger issue.

[C&CDean]

Oh really? The death penalty is not murder? It is the premeditated killing of an individual against their will. That is the precise definition of murder. The same with murdering enemy soldiers on the battle field. All premeditated. I happen to have no problem with either type of murder listed above, but trying to dance around it with semantics is exactly why all of this is so hypocritical.

You're just being silly. If you can't see the difference between this guy clipping little newborn's necks; or someone plotting the murder of an innocent person for gain/revenge/etc. and what happens on a battlefield then you're just being obtuse. Technically all taking of a life against their will could be classified as "murder" but your stance on this is just plain silly.

[achiro]

"Silly" isn't the word I was going to use...

[sappstuf]

Oh really? The death penalty is not murder? It is the premeditated killing of an individual against their will. That is the precise definition of murder. The same with murdering enemy soldiers on the battle field. All premeditated. I happen to have no problem with either type of murder listed above, but trying to dance around it with semantics is exactly why all of this is so hypocritical.

So if a guy was drafted into the Army. Is placed on a battlefield as a medic and is treating one of his own when an enemy soldier pops out behind a tree and starts to fire at that medic. The medic pulls his .45 and fires back killing that soldier. You consider that premeditated? You must since you said "All premeditated".

Achiro is right, silly isn't the word I would use either.

[olevetonahill]

Oh really? The death penalty is not murder? It is the premeditated killing of an individual against their will. That is the precise definition of murder. The same with murdering enemy soldiers on the battle field. All premeditated. I happen to have no problem with either type of murder listed above, but trying to dance around it with semantics is exactly why all of this is so hypocritical.

Heres the Definition dip ****
mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3. A flock of crows. See Synonyms at flock1.
v. mur·dered, mur·der·ing, mur·ders
v.tr.
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.
5. Slang To defeat decisively; trounce.

If you kill following the court order death penalty then you are NOT killing unlawfully. If you kill on the battlefield under the orders of your commanders then you are not killing unlawfully.
Care to go another round?

[FaninAma]

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. The post of mine did not in any way defend abortion. You are assuming way too much.

Let me back up. Here are the posts and responses.







My reading of your post was that you implied that according to Christian doctrine unborn children do not go to heaven. My response was merely a disagreement on that point.

None of this means I supported SoonerBBall's original post. When I respond to a post I'm responded only to the point made in that post. Don't assume anything else.


I've said this before and I think it relevant here. When I see someone state something I disagree with or that is factually incorrect, I will call them out on it. I'll do so whether I agree or disagree with them on the larger issue.

What was the purpose of your post? I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

I will reassert that every Christian faith I have any knowledge about through the attendance of their churches(Catholic, Lutheran, Church of Christ, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist an 2 non-denominational churches)all recognize the humanity of children before and and after being born.

[TitoMorelli]

Interesting article on Goznell, media silence, and this administration's love affair with abortion - love the title:

If Obama had an Uncle...
By J.R. Dunn

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/if_obama_had_an_uncle.html#ixzz2TOGQAxZW
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

[SoonerBBall]

So if a guy was drafted into the Army. Is placed on a battlefield as a medic and is treating one of his own when an enemy soldier pops out behind a tree and starts to fire at that medic. The medic pulls his .45 and fires back killing that soldier. You consider that premeditated? You must since you said "All premeditated".

Achiro is right, silly isn't the word I would use either.

You're right, I shouldn't have said all. Your situation, however, is not the common one during war. Most often it is troops being sent directly to kill the enemy. Again, it is all semantics used to justify the types of killing you'd like to protect and demonize those you'd like to prohibit.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

semantics used to justify the types of killing you'd like to protect and demonize those you'd like to prohibit.
You pro "woman's right to choose"?

[jkjsooner]

What was the purpose of your post? I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

I will reassert that every Christian faith I have any knowledge about through the attendance of their churches(Catholic, Lutheran, Church of Christ, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist an 2 non-denominational churches)all recognize the humanity of children before and and after being born.

Well you objected to SoonerBBall's statement that the unborn children would go to heaven. At least that's the part I thought you objected to. It seems apparent now that that wasn't the part you objected to but if you go back and read the previous comments it seemed as if that was the part you were objecting to. That's why I responded.

[jkjsooner]

Heres the Definition dip ****
mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3. A flock of crows. See Synonyms at flock1.
v. mur·dered, mur·der·ing, mur·ders
v.tr.
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.
5. Slang To defeat decisively; trounce.

If you kill following the court order death penalty then you are NOT killing unlawfully. If you kill on the battlefield under the orders of your commanders then you are not killing unlawfully.
Care to go another round?

I'm not trying to disagree with you because I think most churches agree that there is a distinction between killing and murder and that the original text of the 10 commandments should have been translated to murder.

That being said, what Webster or any other dictionary says about these definitions isn't really relevant. What is relevant is what God intended. God could have easily intended something that doesn't directly translate to an English word...

Just being picky. Continue on...

[olevetonahill]

I'm not trying to disagree with you because I think most churches agree that there is a distinction between killing and murder and that the original text of the 10 commandments should have been translated to murder.

That being said, what Webster or any other dictionary says about these definitions isn't really relevant. What is relevant is what God intended. God could have easily intended something that doesn't directly translate to an English word...

Just being picky. Continue on...

I aint arguing from the Church side of this deal, Im just sayin Murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of life .A convicted POS on death row gettin the needle is not being MURDERED hes being executed. A ****in Gook in the Rice Paddies of Nam aint being MURDERED hes gettin his **** blown away for trying to Kill ME.

Now as for this POS murdering scum sucking Baby killin Doc. Life is too easy.

[OU_Sooners75]

I'm not trying to disagree with you because I think most churches agree that there is a distinction between killing and murder and that the original text of the 10 commandments should have been translated to murder.

That being said, what Webster or any other dictionary says about these definitions isn't really relevant. What is relevant is what God intended. God could have easily intended something that doesn't directly translate to an English word...

Just being picky. Continue on...

Most up-to-date or newer translations have murder not kill.

“You shall not murder"
Exodus 20:13 (New King James Version)

“You shall not murder"
Exodus 20:13 (New Living Translation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_murder

[diverdog]

I aint arguing from the Church side of this deal, Im just sayin Murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of life .A convicted POS on death row gettin the needle is not being MURDERED hes being executed. A ****in Gook in the Rice Paddies of Nam aint being MURDERED hes gettin his **** blown away for trying to Kill ME.

Now as for this POS murdering scum sucking Baby killin Doc. Life is too easy.

i was listening to Michael Smerconish on POTUS radio the other night. He is a highly respected lawyer in Philly and moderate Republican voice on the radio. He deposed this monster in a lawsuit and said he was a real POS. he said something about how this guy kept parts of babies in jars. It was scary stuff.

http://savannahnow.com/column/2013-04-29/commentary-what-gosnell-case-all-about#.UZQBr8u9KK0

[olevetonahill]

i was listening to Michael Smirconish on POTUS radio the other night. He is a highly respected lawyer in Philly and moderate Republican voice on the radio. He deposed this monster in a lawsuit and said he was a real POS. he said something about how this guy kept parts of babies in jars. It was scary stuff.

Like I said, A scum sucking Baby Killin Doc.
Anyone who wants to try and spin THIS thread into a defense of what he did, then IMHO they are just as bad as he is.

[OU_Sooners75]

What is that Christian doctrine? Most churches believe children will go to heaven no matter what. I don't know about catholics and their original sin but they hardly speak for all of Christianity.

Show me where it states in the Bible that all children will go to heaven no matter what.

It doesn't say that.

However, God will forgive all that is incapable of understanding his offer. Meaning that unborn, infants. and handicapped people that cannot comprehend God's offer (that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior), will be forgiven and granted access to Heaven.

Here is a better explanation.

Although sins are not the issue with anyone ever born, no one is saved because of the propitiatory work of Christ alone, since that only provides payment for sins committed. There still is the position in Adam = the guilt all individuals are attributed with as a result of what Adam did as federal head of the human race in the Garden of Eden and the sin nature that all are born with. The sin nature = the evil soul which is in every individual which committed those propitiated acts of sins is what must be forgiven. And God stipulates that forgiveness of sins only comes about with one exception: when one understands and chooses to express his faith in the gospel offer of faith alone in Christ alone. So the lack of forgiveness of sins still keeps all individuals separated from God and eternal life with Him - even the infant and the mentally handicapped. The only time an individual is forgiven of his sins and placed into Christ without having to trust alone in Christ alone is if that individual cannot understand God's offer of the free grace gospel of eternal life and he dies. At that moment, God being justified to do so because of the propitiatory work of Christ, God indeed does save the infant and handicapped individual .

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/children.htm

[Midtowner]

God could have easily intended something that doesn't directly translate to an English word...

That notion doesn't fit together too well with the typical evangelical concept of Biblical perfection.

[Midtowner]

Show me where it states in the Bible that all children will go to heaven no matter what.


Not all Christian belief systems believe the Bible is the Alpha/Omega of Christianity. Catholicism for one, and that's a fair chunk of Christians right there.

[diverdog]

Like I said, A scum sucking Baby Killin Doc.
Anyone who wants to try and spin THIS thread into a defense of what he did, then IMHO they are just as bad as he is.

It has been big news up here and people are outraged. I doubt he gets the death penalty but the AG is trying awfully hard to get it done.

I posted an article that you may have seen in my post. Smerconish makes a case about this is what you get with legalized late term abortions.

[OU_Sooners75]

Not all Christian belief systems believe the Bible is the Alpha/Omega of Christianity. Catholicism for one, and that's a fair chunk of Christians right there.

All Christians actually do believe that the books in the bible are the Word of God. And in doing so they believe it is the Truth...not some made up fairy tale.

You wouldn't understand this since you are not a Christian.

Catholics are the ones that put the Christian Bible together. But the Books in the Bible existed before the Catholic Church.

[olevetonahill]

It has been big news up here and people are outraged. I doubt he gets the death penalty but the AG is trying awfully hard to get it done.

I posted an article that you may have seen in my post. Smerconish makes a case about this is what you get with legalized late term abortions.

Heh, I posted a Link yesterday where He accepted Life with NO chance of Appeal rather than take a chance on the DP.

[diverdog]

Show me where it states in the Bible that all children will go to heaven no matter what.

It doesn't say that.

However, God will forgive all that is incapable of understanding his offer. Meaning that unborn, infants. and handicapped people that cannot comprehend God's offer (that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior), will be forgiven and granted access to Heaven.

Here is a better explanation.


http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/children.htm

Did you watch the second video in my thread on compulsion in religion? It is on the 2nd page. The speaker addresses original sin in a very thoughtful manner to a muslim. I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

[OU_Sooners75]

Did you watch the second video in my thread on compulsion in religion? It is on the 2nd page. The speaker addresses original sin in a very thoughtful manner to a muslim. I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

Im on a city wide free wifi, so i may not be able to watch it right now.

Let me try and I will get back to you.

[OU_Sooners75]

Did you watch the second video in my thread on compulsion in religion? It is on the 2nd page. The speaker addresses original sin in a very thoughtful manner to a muslim. I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

I was able to watch it. Interesting little debate.

IMO, it was a very good way for Mr. Zacharias (sp?) to answer the Muslim's questions. And I agree with all the answers.

I do believe original sin started with Adam. I also believe that God sent Jesus in order to give us Salvation from all sins, as long as we believe in what Jesus was and did for us.

[Soonerjeepman]

All Christians actually do believe that the books in the bible are the Word of God. And in doing so they believe it is the Truth...not some made up fairy tale.

You wouldn't understand this since you are not a Christian.

Catholics are the ones that put the Christian Bible together. But the Books in the Bible existed before the Catholic Church.

ummm, so do Catholics...at least that's what I've been taught for 48 yrs

[TitoMorelli]

You wouldn't understand this since you are a pagan bastage.

fixed :)

[OU_Sooners75]

ummm, so do Catholics...at least that's what I've been taught for 48 yrs

That is what I just said. Catholics are Christians, no?

[Midtowner]

All Christians actually do believe that the books in the bible are the Word of God. And in doing so they believe it is the Truth...not some made up fairy tale.

Or perhaps it's something in between the truth and a made up book of allegories? I can verify the Catholic Church doesn't dictate the literal truth of the Bible and even Luther didn't go there. He even suggested certain books should be thrown out. I'm not sure where that came from, but are you suggesting that the Christian church is only a few hundred years old? Word of God, yes, but it's okay to suggest that, when we're saying the Earth was created in 7 days, we're not talking about literal days (how do you have day 1 without having darkness/light or even an Earth to begin with?) It would also be reasonable to believe in things like evolution--Popes have said as much.


Catholics are the ones that put the Christian Bible together. But the Books in the Bible existed before the Catholic Church.

And funny enough, if you study that process, you can see quite a bit of disagreement between the parties even as to the concept of the trinity. This was big political stuff which involved killing. Lots of sausage making occurred in the compilation of the Bible. Some believe it to be the project of a magic holy spirit. Others think it more likely that a bunch of faithful and non-faithful included/excluded things for all kinds of reasons and what you end up with is something which is worthwhile in terms of the broad strokes, but shouldn't be looked at for literal interpretation, e.g., Earth being ~6,000 years old, dinosaurs existing with Jesus, etc.

[olevetonahill]

That is what I just said. Catholics are Christians, no?

Hell no they aint Christian they Papist, Pay Tention.

[olevetonahill]

Blah Blah Blah, Im a ****ing idiot
.

On this we can agree.

[Soonerjeepman]

That is what I just said. Catholics are Christians, no?

sorry 75, was pointing out to Mid...my bad~

[OU_Sooners75]

Or perhaps it's something in between the truth and a made up book of allegories? I can verify the Catholic Church doesn't dictate the literal truth of the Bible and even Luther didn't go there. He even suggested certain books should be thrown out. I'm not sure where that came from, but are you suggesting that the Christian church is only a few hundred years old?



And funny enough, if you study that process, you can see quite a bit of disagreement between the parties even as to the concept of the trinity. This was big political stuff which involved killing. Lots of sausage making occurred in the compilation of the Bible. Some believe it to be the project of a magic holy spirit. Others think it more likely that a bunch of faithful and non-faithful included/excluded things for all kinds of reasons and what you end up with is something which is worthwhile in terms of the broad strokes, but shouldn't be looked at for literal interpretation, e.g., Earth being ~6,000 years old, dinosaurs existing with Jesus, etc.

Let me try to slow this down for you, since your comprehension slows you down.

All Christians...
Believe the books in the Bible (Christian Bible)...
Are the Word of God.

In doing so...
They (Christians) ...
Believe the Bible (Word of God)...
is the Truth (not made up of fairy tales and outlandish stories).

The Catholic Church is said to be the oldest Christian denomination. They are the ones that put the Christian Bible together out of books (or texts) that dated before the founding of the Christian Church.

Yes, there are a lot of Christian (and even Jewish) texts that were written that are not included in the Christian Bible.

Quite a few Jewish Books are excluded. And quite a few Christians texts as well. However, the New Testament is about the Church. The first 4 are the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Acts is about what the disciples did to fulfill the commands of Jesus after He ascended into heaven.

The bulk of the New Testament are letters written by Paul (the Catholics first Pope many do believe).

If anyone feels that any part of the bible is not truth, then they them self are denying God.

[olevetonahill]

Let me try to slow this down for you, since your comprehension slows you down.

All Christians...
Believe the books in the Bible (Christian Bible)...
Are the Word of God.

In doing so...
They (Christians) ...
Believe the Bible (Word of God)...
is the Truth (not made up of fairy tales and outlandish stories).

The Catholic Church is said to be the oldest Christian denomination. They are the ones that put the Christian Bible together out of books (or texts) that dated before the founding of the Christian Church.

Yes, there are a lot of Christian (and even Jewish) texts that were written that are not included in the Christian Bible.

Quite a few Jewish Books are excluded. And quite a few Christians texts as well. However, the New Testament is about the Church. The first 4 are the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Acts is about what the disciples did to fulfill the commands of Jesus before he ascended into heaven.

The bulk of the New Testament are letters written by Paul (the Catholics first Pope many do believe).

If anyone feels that any part of the bible is not truth, then they them self are denying God.

Trying to debate religion with a Heathen is like tryin make sense of of a stupi thing

[OU_Sooners75]

Trying to debate religion with a Heathen is like tryin make sense of of a stupi thing

Not debating him. Setting him straight.

Even for the "lost", we are to plant a seed and to correct misguided perceptions.

[olevetonahill]

Not debating him. Setting him straight.

Even for the "lost", we are to plant a seed and to correct misguided perceptions.

Yea and yer posed to shake the dust off yer feet at those who wont listen.And to Not cast your pearls to swine.
He dont GAS what ya say. Hes baiting you and you are taking it. He wants to be obstinate and Jack the thread and you are lettin him,

[OU_Sooners75]

Yea and yer posed to shake the dust off yer feet at those who wont listen.And to Not cast your pearls to swine.
He dont GAS what ya say. Hes baiting you and you are taking it. He wants to be obstinate and Jack the thread and you are lettin him,


Well, maybe. But what he says is false in every sense of the word.
I will defend the Word of God and my religion to the end. :)

[olevetonahill]

Well, maybe. But what he says is false in every sense of the word.
I will defend the Word of God and my religion to the end. :)

Dont blame ya. But why keep beatin yer head against a wall?
The dude dont want to discuss, he wants to antagonize and belittle those of faith.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Dont blame ya. But why keep beatin yer head against a wall?
The dude dont want to discuss, he wants to antagonize and belittle those of faith.
as do most of the Leftist True Believers

[SoonerBBall]

You pro "woman's right to choose"?

I'm pro "everyone's right to choose what they do with their own body", including allowing women to choose whatever the want up to the extent defined by law.

Listen, this dude was a monster. Not only is what he did illegal, it is unconscionable and disgusting. He was clearly functioning outside of all legal, moral, and ethical bounds and will have no problem when he is sentenced to the death penalty. I have no issue with the death penalty itself, other than that it costs far more in the end than locking someone up for the rest of their natural life and that I think it is an easy way out and that ******'s like this guy would suffer more having to live the rest of their life confined. I also have no problem with soldiers killing in the heat of battle or anyone killing in self defense or defense of their families. I've said before that I am pro-choice because I am a believer in individual liberties above all else and that barring abortion completely is entirely too slippery of a slope to allow the government and the religious wackos like 75 to have control over.

[Curly Bill]

I'm pro "everyone's right to choose what they do with their own body", including allowing women to choose whatever the want up to the extent defined by law.

Listen, this dude was a monster. Not only is what he did illegal, it is unconscionable and disgusting. He was clearly functioning outside of all legal, moral, and ethical bounds and will have no problem when he is sentenced to the death penalty. I have no issue with the death penalty itself, other than that it costs far more in the end than locking someone up for the rest of their natural life and that I think it is an easy way out and that ******'s like this guy would suffer more having to live the rest of their life confined. I also have no problem with soldiers killing in the heat of battle or anyone killing in self defense or defense of their families. I've said before that I am pro-choice because I am a believe in individual liberties above all else and that barring abortion completely is entirely too slippery of a slope to allow the government and the religious wackos like 75 to have control over.


YUP!!!

[SoonerBBall]

Let me try to slow this down for you, since your comprehension slows you down.

All Christians...
Believe the books in the Bible (Christian Bible)...
Are the Word of God.

In doing so...
They (Christians) ...
Believe the Bible (Word of God)...
is the Truth (not made up of fairy tales and outlandish stories).

The Catholic Church is said to be the oldest Christian denomination. They are the ones that put the Christian Bible together out of books (or texts) that dated before the founding of the Christian Church.

Yes, there are a lot of Christian (and even Jewish) texts that were written that are not included in the Christian Bible.

Quite a few Jewish Books are excluded. And quite a few Christians texts as well. However, the New Testament is about the Church. The first 4 are the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Acts is about what the disciples did to fulfill the commands of Jesus after He ascended into heaven.

The bulk of the New Testament are letters written by Paul (the Catholics first Pope many do believe).

If anyone feels that any part of the bible is not truth, then they them self are denying God.

This is rubbish. Plenty of Christians understand that not only is the Bible not the literal truth. It contradicts itself in too many places to all be literally true.

I'm glad you brought up the letters written by Paul, though. They are a collection of letters written by him in response to questions asked by churches for different reasons. We have only his responses in the bible. We have no idea what the questions were that he was answering, nor do we have any context in which to place those questions. They were also written over a large number of years in an order we can't even place. So we have answers to questions we don't know, written in context we can't possibly understand, and all in random order chronologically. And you want to pull literal truth out of that. That doesn't sound crazy at all.

[olevetonahill]

I'm pro "everyone's right to choose what they do with their own body", including allowing women to choose whatever the want up to the extent defined by law.

Listen, this dude was a monster. Not only is what he did illegal, it is unconscionable and disgusting. He was clearly functioning outside of all legal, moral, and ethical bounds and will have no problem when he is sentenced to the death penalty. I have no issue with the death penalty itself, other than that it costs far more in the end than locking someone up for the rest of their natural life and that I think it is an easy way out and that ******'s like this guy would suffer more having to live the rest of their life confined. I also have no problem with soldiers killing in the heat of battle or anyone killing in self defense or defense of their families. I've said before that I am pro-choice because I am a believer in individual liberties above all else and that barring abortion completely is entirely too slippery of a slope to allow the government and the religious wackos like 75 to have control over.

I posted a Link earlier and mentioned it again about the scum sucker Did a Plea deal for Life with No possible appeals rather than take the risk of facing the DP. His sentence is a done deal after the Judge signs off.

[C&CDean]

I posted a Link earlier and mentioned it again about the scum sucker Did a Plea deal for Life with No possible appeals rather than take the risk of facing the DP. His sentence is a done deal after the Judge signs off.

So he's not only a murderer, he's also a coward. Figures. POS.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm pro "everyone's right to choose what they do with THEIR OWN BODY", including allowing women to choose whatever the want up to the extent defined by law.
.Then, you believe abortion isn't murder? The fetus isn't a human? Or, is it "killing" instead, and justifiable because of the horrible, felonious acts of the one killed, or an act of self defense?

[Curly Bill]

Then, you believe abortion isn't murder? The fetus isn't a human? Or, is it "killing" instead, and justifiable because of the horrible, felonious acts of the one killed, or an act of self defense?


Dang son! Not so frantic! Too many in the anti-abortion crowd remind me of the anti-gun folks with the over the top rhetoric bordering on hysteria. I don't think it's helpful to your cause.

[TAFBSooner]

So he's not only a murderer, he's also a coward. Figures. POS.

Maybe a misinformed coward, if he thinks the needle would have been worse than what he will face in prison.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Dang son! Not so frantic! Too many in the anti-abortion crowd remind me of the anti-gun folks with the over the top rhetoric bordering on hysteria. I don't think it's helpful to your cause.If one shows the illogic of abortion, one receives the loony card? I know you are for it, but a reminder that it is killing an innocent human was in order. Have you dismissed that reality?

[Curly Bill]

I'm somewhat in the middle. Not a fan of abortion, but not a fan of government telling women what they can do with their bodies either, and as more of a true conservative than many of you that wins out in the end for me.

I just don't think the hyperbole, bordering in many cases on hysteria, from some of the folks on your side is helpful to your argument.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm somewhat in the middle. Not a fan of abortion, but not a fan of government telling women what they can do with their bodies either, and as more of a true conservative than many of you that wins out in the end for me.

I just don't think the hyperbole, bordering in many cases on hysteria, from some of the folks on your side is helpful to your argument.IMO you're just digging a deeper hole with those comments. Admit it's murder, but that it doesn't bother you. IMHO That is what one taking your position has to do to be honest with himself.

[Curly Bill]

IMO you're just digging a deeper hole with those comments. Admit it's murder, but that it doesn't bother you. IMHO That is what one taking your position has to do to be honest with himself.

So...my comments about the over the top rhetoric didn't sink in huh?

[SoonerBBall]

IMO you're just digging a deeper hole with those comments. Admit it's murder, but that it doesn't bother you. IMHO That is what one taking your position has to do to be honest with himself.

Bullsh*t. You only label it murder because you don't like it. Just like you don't label war killings or death penalty killings murder because you like those. Again, it is all semantics. I'm fine with labeling it a killing justified by law if that is what it takes to get you to shut up, but it still is a much deeper issue than most of you "conservatives" are willing to admit.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Bullsh*t. You only label it murder because you don't like it. Just like you don't label war killings or death penalty killings murder because you like those. Again, it is all semantics. I'm fine with labeling it a killing justified by law if that is what it takes to get you to shut up, but it still is a much deeper issue than most of you "conservatives" are willing to admit.haha, you GO, big boy! It doesn't fit your definition of killing, which I agree with. No, it's murder. And it's not about the woman's body.

[olevetonahill]

Maybe a misinformed coward, if he thinks the needle would have been worse than what he will face in prison.

The only difference is If he had gotten the DP he would have been held in Segrgation. Now he prolly be in some type of General Pop. Hell hes in his 70s He will die of natural causes before they could have ever executed him anyway.

[SoonerBBall]

haha, you GO, big boy! It doesn't fit your definition of killing, which I agree with. No, it's murder. And it's not about the woman's body.

If you believe that, then you aren't really a conservative and you don't believe in individual liberty. It is as simple as that.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

If you believe that, then you aren't really a conservative and you don't believe in individual liberty. It is as simple as that.yeah, baby!

[OU_Sooners75]

This is rubbish. Plenty of Christians understand that not only is the Bible not the literal truth. It contradicts itself in too many places to all be literally true.

I'm glad you brought up the letters written by Paul, though. They are a collection of letters written by him in response to questions asked by churches for different reasons. We have only his responses in the bible. We have no idea what the questions were that he was answering, nor do we have any context in which to place those questions. They were also written over a large number of years in an order we can't even place. So we have answers to questions we don't know, written in context we can't possibly understand, and all in random order chronologically. And you want to pull literal truth out of that. That doesn't sound crazy at all.

By all means, show me where the bible contradicts itself.

I love atheists, non-Christians thinking that the bible contradicts itself.

Ill be waiting.

[OU_Sooners75]

I'm somewhat in the middle. Not a fan of abortion, but not a fan of government telling women what they can do with their bodies either, and as more of a true conservative than many of you that wins out in the end for me.

I just don't think the hyperbole, bordering in many cases on hysteria, from some of the folks on your side is helpful to your argument.

Who is going to speak for that unborn child? It is obvious that the mother wont if she is in an abortion clinic having an abortion.

[OU_Sooners75]

Bullsh*t. You only label it murder because you don't like it. Just like you don't label war killings or death penalty killings murder because you like those. Again, it is all semantics. I'm fine with labeling it a killing justified by law if that is what it takes to get you to shut up, but it still is a much deeper issue than most of you "conservatives" are willing to admit.

Tell me...when does life begin?

When the blood starts flowing in the embryo?
When you can hear a heart beat?
When you can see the eyes, feet, hands, fingers, etc?
When you can hold the baby?

Tell me, in your opinion when does life begin?

But keep in mind before you answer, the blood of an embryo starts flowing before the mother even knows she is pregnant.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

OU_Sooners75, yer a right wing whack job religious lunatical tinfoil hatter, and crazy as any 72 virgins forever in the after-life for killing infidels type of insane moslem that there is out there if you think a youngish fetus is a human.

[C&CDean]

Well you got the whack job part right anyhow...

[OU_Sooners75]

Well you got the whack job part right anyhow...

Who is a whack job?

[Curly Bill]

Who is going to speak for that unborn child? It is obvious that the mother wont if she is in an abortion clinic having an abortion.

I guess you and RLIMC have taken it upon yourselves to do it.

[olevetonahill]

I guess you and RLIMC have taken it upon yourselves to do it.

Im with you bro. While I personally think its wrong. I admit It aint my place to fuss at anyone.

[Curly Bill]

Im with you bro. While I personally think its wrong. I admit It aint my place to fuss at anyone.

Yup, and in this case a couple of the posters who have taken it upon themselves to do so are among those who most loudly proclaim themselves to be conservatives. I just get a kick out of ragging on em for the blatant hypocrisy.

[C&CDean]

Who is a whack job?

What?

[SoonerBBall]

By all means, show me where the bible contradicts itself.

I love atheists, non-Christians thinking that the bible contradicts itself.

Ill be waiting.

Matthew 27:3-8

Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” But they said, “What is that to us? See to that yourself!”And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Acts 1:16-18

“Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.”(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

So how again did Judas die? And how is it that everything in the Bible is literal truth when it clearly states things that cannot both be true? Did a wizard do it?

[C&CDean]

Did a wizard do it?

Dumbledore!!1!

[SoonerBBall]

I anxiously await 75's explanation of how Judas unsuccessfully hanged himself, then fell to the ground and died on land that he purchased in the past through a chief priest agent. It is going to be hilarious.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yup, and in this case a couple of the posters who have taken it upon themselves to do so are among those who most loudly proclaim themselves to be conservatives. I just get a kick out of ragging on em for THE BLATANT HYPOCRISY.What you say here might make sense if you don't consider the humanity of the unborn/ whacked child.

[Curly Bill]

What you say here might make sense if you don't consider the humanity of the unborn/ whacked child.

It makes total sense, but because you don't want to be labelled a hypocrite you turn it into being about humanity. We can certainly argue that abortion is not humane, but what you, 75, and so many other so-called conservatives can't argue is that on abortion you're hypocrites.

But hey...you can claim to be more humane than me and other real conservatives so at least ya got that going for ya.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It makes total sense, but because you don't want to be labelled a hypocrite you turn it into being about humanity. We can certainly argue that abortion is not humane, but what you, 75, and so many other so-called conservatives can't argue is that on abortion you're hypocrites.

But hey...you can claim to be more humane than me and other real conservatives so at least ya got that going for ya.you tell me why you think I'm a hypocrite. Is it because you believe it's a woman's right to choose, instead of murder, and I don't want her to have the right to choose?

[Curly Bill]

you tell m why I'm a hypocrite. Is it because you believe it's a woman's right to choose, instead of murder, and I don't want her to have the right to choose?

Are you not normally against government intervention/interference in people's lives? That government should have a small "footprint" as we might say? Seems to me that's usually the case with you, and yet in the area of abortion you and many of the other so-called conservatives would have government dictating what women can and can't do with their very own bodies - that's some very big footprint stuff.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I just wanted to be sure that was what you meant. You say you don't believe it's murder. I do believe it's murder. Nuff said, right?

[Midtowner]

To be murder, it has to be unlawful. So how's it unlawful?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

To be murder, it has to be unlawful. So how's it unlawful?I would respectfully ask you to KMA-mofo

[Midtowner]

I would respectfully ask you to KMA-mofo

Unresponsive. That's the typical intellectually bankrupt response I've come to expect from you. It's very readily apparent that you haven't fully thought your position through. For it to be murder, it has to be unlawful. Otherwise, it's just killing and there are plenty of moral and even legal ways to kill. God did it plenty throughout the OT, so if we're just talking killing, maybe we ought to consider God's position on this considering he allegedly directed the killing of every man, woman, fetus and child in several ancient cities, not to mention taking the lives of innocent first born children of the Egyptians, etc.

You, for religious reasons, apparently have bought into the notion that God is anti-abortion, yet he himself was probably personally responsible for thousands of preterm babies dying.

At any rate, our country places a higher value on the freedom of the woman to do with her body as she likes and allows the states to come in after the point at which the fetus could survive outside the mother and pass laws to protect that life. The fact that the states are so indirectly attacking that issue indicates that no one is serious about solving this issue politically, and single-issue/low information voters are readily manipulated pawns in that regard.

[Curly Bill]

I just wanted to be sure that was what you meant. You say you don't believe it's murder. I do believe it's murder. Nuff said, right?

Pretty much prolly. This is one of those issues where people believe what they believe, and nothing is gonna change their mind. I don't think it's murder, and obviously from the pure legal sense it's not, but I don't think it's too huge a stretch for someone like yourself to consider it as such. I've said before I'm not a fan of abortion, and if it went away I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but on this as on many other issues I'm for government minding its own business and letting people make the decisions that they must.

[Harry Beanbag]

Unresponsive.

Not really. I could be wrong, but I believe he's trying to say he doesn't give a flying **** what a troll like you has to say about anything. Trolling the SF political threads and acting like a total ******* is so 2004 and people just don't have time or the want to deal with it anymore.

Like I said though, I could be wrong. Maybe I'm projecting my own feelings onto him.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Not really. I could be wrong, but I believe he's trying to say he doesn't give a flying **** what a troll like you has to say about anything. Trolling the SF political threads and acting like a total ******* is so 2004 and people just don't have time or the want to deal with it anymore.

Like I said though, I could be wrong. Maybe I'm projecting my own feelings onto him.Thank you for the above. That is of course what the truth is, and what the poster should have already known, but maybe somehow still doesn't.

[Midtowner]

Not really. I could be wrong, but I believe he's trying to say he doesn't give a flying **** what a troll like you has to say about anything. Trolling the SF political threads and acting like a total ******* is so 2004 and people just don't have time or the want to deal with it anymore.

Like I said though, I could be wrong. Maybe I'm projecting my own feelings onto him.

He doesn't care or can't respond because he's got nothing?

I keep seeing him post and clearly not be able to articulate any of his beliefs (or should I call it dogma?) and you calling someone else a troll? Rich. I've never seen anything posted by you which wasn't a personal attack in some way, shape or form.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

He doesn't care or can't respond because he's got nothing?

I keep seeing him post and clearly not be able to articulate any of his beliefs (or should I call it dogma?) and you calling someone else a troll? Rich. I've never seen anything posted by you which wasn't a personal attack in some way, shape or form.
I'll make it simple, since it is simple, but I don't expect you to understand. Unborn babies are people, and murder is wrong. We both know that the issued of abortion being legal is still controversial, and rightly so, since it is about killing people.

[C&CDean]

I'll make it simple, since it is simple, but I don't expect you to understand. Unborn babies are people, and murder is wrong. We both know that the issued of abortion being legal is still controversial, and rightly so, since it is about killing people.

but it's legal so it's ok

So was slavery. And women not voting. It's the only argument the dillweed has and deep down he knows he's full of horse****. But then again, when canine > human wtf do you expect?

[Midtowner]

I'll make it simple, since it is simple, but I don't expect you to understand. Unborn babies are people, and murder is wrong. We both know that the issued of abortion being legal is still controversial, and rightly so, since it is about killing people.

It's not murder because it's legal. It's just killing. And it's about a woman's right to control her own body, not the killing.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_pnJEVuxnT5HALvr5eoolDfJ4NnvQb i4VSy8-BQd2PNIy7B4ntA

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It's not murder because it's legal. It's just killing. And it's about a woman's right to control her own body, not the killing.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_pnJEVuxnT5HALvr5eoolDfJ4NnvQb i4VSy8-BQd2PNIy7B4ntAThe genius Supreme Court in the 1970's determined it's not about murder, by opting to consider it killing, so it will be okay, like self defense and killing in war...but then, lots of Lefties tend to think self defense and fighting in a war ARE murder. So, you guys are backwards, as usual. It has nothing to do with the mother's body, unless it's in physical jeopardy by giving birth. Hell, as an adult you know this stuff, or should, anyway.

[yermom]

It's not murder because it's legal. It's just killing. And it's about a woman's right to control her own body, not the killing.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_pnJEVuxnT5HALvr5eoolDfJ4NnvQb i4VSy8-BQd2PNIy7B4ntA

who gives a **** if it's legal?

what are we talking about here?

does the definition of sin change because the American laws define something a certain way?

no wonder the wackadoos don't want gay marriage legal

[olevetonahill]

This thread has NOTHING to do with the Legality/Illegality, Morality/Immorality of Abortion . This is about a Scum suckin POS Doctor that went above and Beyond the Law,TO KILL. Thats MURDER .
Nuff ****ing said.
May he rot in hell.

[Midtowner]

Oh yeah, I agree, he should die by scissors to his spine. He's a POS.

[OU_Sooners75]

Yup, and in this case a couple of the posters who have taken it upon themselves to do so are among those who most loudly proclaim themselves to be conservatives. I just get a kick out of ragging on em for the blatant hypocrisy.

Just like you are full of opinions on this matter, so is everyone else posting in this thread.

As far as hypocrisy goes..Not sure where the hypocrisy is coming from. Unlike you, I am not stating one opinion for a particular issue, and another for a similar issue.

[OU_Sooners75]

Matthew 27:3-8


Acts 1:16-18


So how again did Judas die? And how is it that everything in the Bible is literal truth when it clearly states things that cannot both be true? Did a wizard do it?

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. The Second Law of Logic, the Law of Non Contradition, (LNC) says that something cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same sense. It is not a contradiction to describe something differently: Judas was hung and Judas fell down. Both are possible since neither negates the possibility of the other. A contradiction occurs when one statement makes another statement impossible but both are said to be true. So, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.


Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does.



http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-did-judas-die-hanging-or-falling-down

[OU_Sooners75]

Are you not normally against government intervention/interference in people's lives? That government should have a small "footprint" as we might say? Seems to me that's usually the case with you, and yet in the area of abortion you and many of the other so-called conservatives would have government dictating what women can and can't do with their very own bodies - that's some very big footprint stuff.

Government says murder is against the law. IMO, abortion is murder. Just as much so as some one shooting and killing another person in cold blood.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Government says murder is against the law. IMO, abortion is murder. Just as much so as some one shooting and killing another person in cold blood.They know, and won't publicly admit it. It just doesn't bother them, and they resort to calling people religious looneys who proclaim it's murder.

[SoonerBBall]

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. The Second Law of Logic, the Law of Non Contradition, (LNC) says that something cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same sense. It is not a contradiction to describe something differently: Judas was hung and Judas fell down. Both are possible since neither negates the possibility of the other. A contradiction occurs when one statement makes another statement impossible but both are said to be true. So, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.


Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does.http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-did-judas-die-hanging-or-falling-down

Hahahaha. I'm psychic I guess.


I anxiously await 75's explanation of how Judas unsuccessfully hanged himself, then fell to the ground and died on land that he purchased in the past through a chief priest agent. It is going to be hilarious.

It makes total sense that they would describe his actual death in one book and what happened after his death in another. Total. Sense.

[diverdog]

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-did-judas-die-hanging-or-falling-down

Ya know strange things can and do happen. He could have very easily fallen on a chair that he used to hang himself, break the chair, pieces of it guts him and he dies. Sounds like God had a plan for Judas. It also sounds like it sucked to be Judas.