Is college worth the cost?

[cleller]

In an interview to promote his book, "Is College Worth It" former Education Sec Bill Bennet says maybe-maybe not. For many people who either don't finish, or do finish - but with high debt- college may not pay off. For him, only about 150 colleges are a sure bet to pay off, based on return on investment.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/only-150-3500-u-colleges-worth-investment-former-132020890.html?vp=1

Another website ranks colleges based on return on investment. In Oklahoma, TU finishes at #229, Oklahoma at #243, and OSU at #450.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/only-150-3500-u-colleges-worth-investment-former-132020890.html?vp=1

[yermom]

i can't imagine spending much more than OU prices.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

For me it was priceless. It was much more than return on investment.

[KantoSooner]

If you're simply looking at ROI in cash terms, then you should go be a welder or learn to operate a tower crane.

[SoonerAtKU]

I think it depends on the major and the motivation of the individual. I don't think you can just blanket it as "worth it" or not. Even looking at a school as a whole is not really that useful a picture.

[Boomer.....]

Of course it's worth it if you are smart about it. I know some people won't determine a major right away, but make sure you do after a couple years (after finishing your core classes) and don't flip-flop and become a "lifer". The people who get a math, political science, etc. degree and have no intention of ever using it are the ones who end up with no job and tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

[badger]

It's where I met NP and many lifelong friends, so that makes it worthwhile in that regard.

If the purpose is for job training, there are certainly cheaper ways to be trained and more lucrative jobs out there that don't require college.

So, it all depends on your goals and what you want out of it.

[Boomer.....]

It's where I met NP and many lifelong friends, so that makes it worthwhile in that regard.

If the purpose is for job training, there are certainly cheaper ways to be trained and more lucrative jobs out there that don't require college.

So, it all depends on your goals and what you want out of it.

IMO, college is a way to weed out the masses. It shows that you are smart enough to get through college, but little of the stuff you learn is applied in the workforce. Almost all jobs will train you to their standards.

[KantoSooner]

I helped a neighbor's kid go through the application process. Poor SOB was basically writing his essays with a crayon held in his fist. (parenthetical note: all teachers at Barnsdall Public Schools should be severely flogged to death. There is no excuse.)

He's now writing, if not beautifully at least grammatically and you can understand the points he's driving at.

Two years ago he couldn't have run the register at a fast food joint, today you actually could train him to do something useful in a typical company. To his life, college has been an absolute lifesaver.

[Soonerjeepman]

My daughter is ADD, had horrible grades, self esteem in HS...struggled. We struggled, she now is slowly getting back in the groove. She messed around at juco, lost about 1 1/2 yrs, wasted about $1500.00 but she finally is taking it serious. It's been good for her just to prove she CAN do it if she wants and works at it. Will she be a brain surgeon, no. She has a desire to own her own dog daycare someday..and she is working towards that goal.

[FirstandGoal]

So I have a 20yo son and a 15yo daughter.

The son never really took his grades seriously in high school and actually spent more time figuring out what the absolute minimum grade he could slide by with and still pass than he did doing actual work. Ditto for absences. He considered an unused absence a waste and a hideous crime not to use. Now the kid is extremely bright (I'm not even going to use the word "smart" to describe him until he gets past the phase where he constantly has his head up his ***) and he has a lot of potential, but at this moment in his life college is definitely NOT for him. For this kid, college is absolutely a waste of time and money as his first year proves. At this moment, he is content to work full-time and he lives on his own paying his own bills. I give him absolutely nothing except for holidays, birthdays, and the occasional playoff ticket here and there. He knows that his lifestyle of working full-time and not going to college are his choice and he plans on someday going back in the near future.

My daughter OTOH, is very motivated and self-driven (she's like her mom) to achieve and achieve well above and beyond others. She has made it her mission to have straight A's through school and so far she's done it. For this kid, college seems a very rational choice and not only is she smart enough to do it, but she has the proper work ethic. She's been raised to know that she has to be the one to make sure the money is made and that at the end of the day she knows she should only rely on herself to be able to bring home the bacon. Like her mother, she plans on entering the medical field and knows that with that goal in mind, she will be completely justified in spending $$$ on college because she knows she will be damn well able to pay off those loans with a fairly good income and a job in demand.

Both of my kids are equally intelligent, raised in the same household, and were given the exact same opportunities but so far there have been different outcomes. I really ticks me off when some friends and family look at me funny when they ask about my son and my answer is "college isn't for everyone."

Honestly, it isn't.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm tired of colleges being treated as if they are trade schools where a simple cost/benefit analysis should determine whether you go. That was never the intended purpose of higher-education.

There is something to be said for educating yourself purely for the sake of being an educated citizen.

[FirstandGoal]

LOL.


Being educated is nice luxury.

Being able to pay the bills at the end of the day is necessity.

[OU68]

We don't need no stinkin thinkers, just workers - learn to be a doctor/dentist/engineer - to hell with poetry and music. MEH

[yermom]

I'm tired of colleges being treated as if they are trade schools where a simple cost/benefit analysis should determine whether you go. That was never the intended purpose of higher-education.

There is something to be said for educating yourself purely for the sake of being an educated citizen.

that's all well and good if daddy is paying the bills

i went straight into college. i won't say it was a mistake, but i probably could have made better choices. luckily for me, i started working in a job in college that gave me skills to fall back on

[SicEmBaylor]

that's all well and good if daddy is paying the bills

i went straight into college. i won't say it was a mistake, but i probably could have made better choices. luckily for me, i started working in a job in college that gave me skills to fall back on

It's all well and good whether daddy is paying the bills or not.

[yermom]

some people have to work to pay the bills SicEm. going $100k in debt for cultural enlightenment doesn't make a lot of sense.

[cleller]

some people have to work to pay the bills SicEm. going $100k in debt for cultural enlightenment doesn't make a lot of sense.


I imagine that's the point of the book, probably.

If you picture an 18 year old today, of modest means, it would be an important question. Unless you are capable of excelling, or at least towing the line to get a degree in 4 years from a pretty good university, that decision to go into debt could cause more financial pain than it warrants.

The student could be saddled with debt; the principal and interest digging a hole it would take decades to dig out of. Alternately, some parents could see their dreams of a stable retirement disappear. Meanwhile, there are demands in fields that do not require college that are unfilled, while college grads can't find anything.

[OU_Sooners75]

In all honesty, some very bright kids cannot make it in College. Yet they are pushed that way.

IMO, I would suggest my kids to do a military sign up, at least one enlistment. Learn something they can use in the real world, while being able to see the world. And hopefully never having to go into combat.

Then when they are finished with the military, either go work in the trade you learned, or go off to college to further educate what you already know and may be very good at.

That said, most colleges fail at teaching anyone how to live and work. With so many different ways at doing the same things, you will waste a lot of money in education, only to actually learn the job afterwards.

College is for teaching logic and reasoning skills. Vocational Trade Schools are for teaching skilled labor workers. And a lot of those skilled labor jobs pay pretty darn well.

[Jacie]

Recently read a newspaper article about a "school" that teaches how to write computer code. The course lasts less than 3 months and the cost is 15% of a graduate's first year of salary (most in this field start at 80k/year or so). If the graduate fails to secure a job within a year, there is no charge. More such "schools" are starting to spring up and it would seem that at some point there will be glut and salaries, at least starting salaries, would come down but for now the demand is greater than the supply. One more thing about this school, it is very selective about who gets in, it is not a free for all. The advantage over a 4-year degree, in addition to the lower overall cost and the three months vs. four years, is that graduates are market-ready. So many come out of college, degree in hand, and still no marketable job skills.

[OU_Sooners75]

Which school is that Jacie?

[SicEmBaylor]

That said, most colleges fail at teaching anyone how to live and work. With so many different ways at doing the same things, you will waste a lot of money in education, only to actually learn the job afterwards.

Higher education fails at teaching students how to 'live and work' because colleges aren't supposed to teach students how to 'live and work.' That isn't their purpose.

Like you said, people unfortunately confuse higher education with vocational education. They expect a vocational education with a higher education price tag and then people bitch that they don't make enough to cover their student debt after graduation.

If the only thing you're worried about is making money then there are plenty of ways to do that without a college degree. This is a big gripe I have with my so-called fellow conservatives who are so hostile to education that they actually see it as a net-negative.

[SicEmBaylor]

some people have to work to pay the bills SicEm. going $100k in debt for cultural enlightenment doesn't make a lot of sense.
If you can't afford it or are worried about post-graduation debt then don't do it. My point is that the worth of higher education shouldn't be measured purely in terms of how much money one makes after graduation. Educating yourself for education's sake is worthwhile in and of itself.

[OU_Sooners75]

Higher education fails at teaching students how to 'live and work' because colleges aren't supposed to teach students how to 'live and work.' That isn't their purpose.

Like you said, people unfortunately confuse higher education with vocational education. They expect a vocational education with a higher education price tag and then people bitch that they don't make enough to cover their student debt after graduation.

If the only thing you're worried about is making money then there are plenty of ways to do that without a college degree. This is a big gripe I have with my so-called fellow conservatives who are so hostile to education that they actually see it as a net-negative.


Exactly. and yet, colleges brag about being able to get you in front of employers and all that jazz.

If a school is going to be doing something like that, then they should actually teach life and working skills to students.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

If you get a respectable liberal arts degree with a major in something like math, philosophy, or English, then you'll be quite competitive in the business world. Your major will distinguish you over other majors that are so common. Of course it helps if you have good interpersonal skills in addition to a respectable major.

[SoonerInFortSmith]

If you get a respectable liberal arts degree with a major in something like math, philosophy, or English, then you'll be quite competitive in the business world. Your major will distinguish you over other majors that are so common. Of course it helps if you have good interpersonal skills in addition to a respectable major.

You're joking right? These days those degrees will make you competitive at running a cash register or managing a fast food joint.

[SicEmBaylor]

You're joking right? These days those degrees will make you competitive at running a cash register or managing a fast food joint.

The trick is tailoring your major(s) to a very specific niche industry and determining to stick with that career path. I truly believe the best course is a double major that combine two compatible sets of knowledge. For example, combining political science and a math degree is absolutely perfect for getting a job with a polling firm. You just have to commit to yourself to do that one specific job and stick with it throughout college.

Let me give you another example. Baylor has a degree known as Museum Studies -- basically, they teach you how to manage a museum. They teach you how to handle displays properly, how to maintain artifacts, etc. etc. If you combine that degree and a history degree then you have the perfect combination to manage and run both private and public museums or historical sites. Again, you have to commit to doing precisely that.

Political Science and Philosophy=Think Tank work.

The key for students is deciding as early as possible what they want to do in life and then stick with the plan. The problem is that most people are fickle and can't decide what they truly want to do.

[SicEmBaylor]

The problem is that you have dip****s (especially women) who will major in something like Medieval Literature and then expect to get a good job in the business world -- then they blame college; whereas, the blame rests with themselves and their stupidity.

If you want to major in Medieval Literature because it's a topic you are interested in and you wish to grow as an individual and increase your knowledge and understanding of the topic then I salute that. But don't major in something like that and expect to quickly work your way to upper-management at a Fortune 500.

[SoonerInFortSmith]

You're joking right? These days those degrees will make you competitive at running a cash register or managing a fast food joint.

The trick is tailoring your major(s) to a very specific niche industry and determining to stick with that career path. I truly believe the best course is a double major that combine two compatible sets of knowledge. For example, combining political science and a math degree is absolutely perfect for getting a job with a polling firm. You just have to commit to yourself to do that one specific job and stick with it throughout college.

Let me give you another example. Baylor has a degree known as Museum Studies -- basically, they teach you how to manage a museum. They teach you how to handle displays properly, how to maintain artifacts, etc. etc. If you combine that degree and a history degree then you have the perfect combination to manage and run both private and public museums or historical sites. Again, you have to commit to doing precisely that.

Political Science and Philosophy=Think Tank work.

The key for students is deciding as early as possible what they want to do in life and then stick with the plan. The problem is that most people are fickle and can't decide what they truly want to do.

A good idea in theory, but not very practical. What will a graduate do while waiting for that polling firm or curator job offer? Work at a department store or restaurant or similar. Then that counts against you when you apply for your desired job because your only work experience is in the service industry. This is a perfect example of your relative lack of life experience showing in your comments SicEm. No offense intended, just sayin.

[SicEmBaylor]

A good idea in theory, but not very practical. What will a graduate do while waiting for that polling firm or curator job offer? Work at a department store or restaurant or similar. Then that counts against you when you apply for your desired job because your only work experience is in the service industry. This is a perfect example of your relative lack of life experience showing in your comments SicEm. No offense intended, just sayin.

It doesn't count against you to the degree it would in the regular business world. I understand the issue with job experience outside the field being a hindrance, but as far as the political side of things goes you'd be surprised. And of course a person doesn't have to actually work in polling -- campaign and legislative experience counts for a lot. Honestly, it isn't as difficult to get a job right away in either of those areas if you're talented and properly driven.

As for other career paths, I can't say as I have no frame of reference. I don't have a clue how difficult it is to get a job in a museum but my guess it's more difficult than one would think....

[SoonerInFortSmith]

So you have/have had a job in the political sector?

[FirstandGoal]

The problem is that you have dip****s (especially women) who will major in something like Medieval Literature and then expect to get a good job in the business world -- then they blame college; whereas, the blame rests with themselves and their stupidity.

If you want to major in Medieval Literature because it's a topic you are interested in and you wish to grow as an individual and increase your knowledge and understanding of the topic then I salute that. But don't major in something like that and expect to quickly work your way to upper-management at a Fortune 500.

For the most part I like you SicEm, but I feel like I just had to address this blatantly sexist comment.

In my past experience, it is more the women rather than the men who approach higher education in a goal-oriented manner because we are the ones who know that at the end of the day that we're not going to get as much respect as our male counterparts due to the fact that we lack the same external plumbing. We've also come to learn that we are just as important as the men when it comes to providing for a family. Armed with this knowledge, we tend to work harder and make smarter choices with a more limited amount of resources.
Yes, there will always be that fraction of women entering college going there for no other reason than to attain their M.R.S. degree, but that fraction declines with each new generation. Trophy wife as a profession is a declining option.

In fact, I'm even going to go out on a limb here and say that for women, college is even more important than it is for men both due to the advantages that men have over women in the workplace and due to the fact that a lot of trades aren't viable options for women due to the physical requirements of the profession.

Plus at the end of the day, we can not only say we went out there and brought home a damn paycheck, but we will also get in the kitchen and make you a damn sammich with the money we earned with our degree.

[KantoSooner]

I know a guy who majored in political philosophy (the couture version of poli sci) with a strong minor interest in diplomatic history and sociobiology. Me
Pretty airy fairy course of study, no?
I ended up building and running plastic molding factories in Malaysia, China, and Korea oriented toward supplying the semiconductor industry and running his company's operations from Turkey to the US West coast.
I was debt-free within five years of graduation.
I also enjoyed myself by spoofing rooms full of electrical engineers into thinking that I was either a particle physicist or a chemist when delivering lectures on 'sub-angstrom reactive partlcle contamination' to industry conferences in Taiwan and Japan.

Study what flips your switch. Get very good at it. Good employers are interested more in your ability to achieve than they are in hiring a drone with an advanced degree in droning.


Mind you that, these days, a working knowledge of drones is well respected many places.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

You're joking right? These days those degrees will make you competitive at running a cash register or managing a fast food joint.

Of course I'm not joking. Maybe not in Fort Smith, but in larger metropolitan areas.

[OU68]

Recently read a newspaper article about a "school" that teaches how to write computer code. The course lasts less than 3 months and the cost is 15% of a graduate's first year of salary (most in this field start at 80k/year or so). If the graduate fails to secure a job within a year, there is no charge. More such "schools" are starting to spring up and it would seem that at some point there will be glut and salaries, at least starting salaries, would come down but for now the demand is greater than the supply. One more thing about this school, it is very selective about who gets in, it is not a free for all. The advantage over a 4-year degree, in addition to the lower overall cost and the three months vs. four years, is that graduates are market-ready. So many come out of college, degree in hand, and still no marketable job skills.

Gotta compete with those folks from India don't we?

[olevetonahill]

I know a guy who majored in political philosophy (the couture version of poli sci) with a strong minor interest in diplomatic history and sociobiology. Me
Pretty airy fairy course of study, no?
I ended up building and running plastic molding factories in Malaysia, China, and Korea oriented toward supplying the semiconductor industry and running his company's operations from Turkey to the US West coast.
I was debt-free within five years of graduation.
I also enjoyed myself by spoofing rooms full of electrical engineers into thinking that I was either a particle physicist or a chemist when delivering lectures on 'sub-angstrom reactive partlcle contamination' to industry conferences in Taiwan and Japan.

Study what flips your switch. Get very good at it. Good employers are interested more in your ability to achieve than they are in hiring a drone with an advanced degree in droning.


Mind you that, these days, a working knowledge of drones is well respected many places.

Pretty much Spot on bro

I always said College taught me How to Gather information , Understand what I gathered and the best way to Utilize it.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Pretty much Spot on bro

I always said College taught me How to Gather information , Understand what I gathered and the best way to Utilize it.

you must have studied chemistry.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Study what flips your switch. Get very good at it. Good employers are interested more in your ability to achieve than they are in hiring a drone with an advanced degree in droning.


.

Exactly.

[yermom]

For the most part I like you SicEm, but I feel like I just had to address this blatantly sexist comment.

In my past experience, it is more the women rather than the men who approach higher education in a goal-oriented manner because we are the ones who know that at the end of the day that we're not going to get as much respect as our male counterparts due to the fact that we lack the same external plumbing. We've also come to learn that we are just as important as the men when it comes to providing for a family. Armed with this knowledge, we tend to work harder and make smarter choices with a more limited amount of resources.
Yes, there will always be that fraction of women entering college going there for no other reason than to attain their M.R.S. degree, but that fraction declines with each new generation. Trophy wife as a profession is a declining option.

In fact, I'm even going to go out on a limb here and say that for women, college is even more important than it is for men both due to the advantages that men have over women in the workplace and due to the fact that a lot of trades aren't viable options for women due to the physical requirements of the profession.

Plus at the end of the day, we can not only say we went out there and brought home a damn paycheck, but we will also get in the kitchen and make you a damn sammich with the money we earned with our degree.

i think he's more commenting on the course of study the majority of women follow. was your degree in fine arts or social sciences or classics?

[starclassic tama]

Higher education fails at teaching students how to 'live and work' because colleges aren't supposed to teach students how to 'live and work.' That isn't their purpose.

Like you said, people unfortunately confuse higher education with vocational education. They expect a vocational education with a higher education price tag and then people bitch that they don't make enough to cover their student debt after graduation.

If the only thing you're worried about is making money then there are plenty of ways to do that without a college degree. This is a big gripe I have with my so-called fellow conservatives who are so hostile to education that they actually see it as a net-negative.

very well said.

[badger]

at the end of the day, we can not only say we went out there and brought home a damn paycheck, but we will also get in the kitchen and make you a damn sammich with the money we earned with our degree.

I know that I'm setting the womens movement back a generation or two, but my paycheck is directly deposited into a joint checking account which NP uses to pay all the bills and such.


The problem is that you have dip****s (especially women) who will major in something like Medieval Literature and then expect to get a good job in the business world -- then they blame college; whereas, the blame rests with themselves and their stupidity.

Colleges aren't blameless in that department. The Medieval Literatures of the college world are not self-sustaining departments. They don't have alumni donor support in general, they don't have the enrollment numbers in general, they don't produce quality high paying jobs post-graduation in general. For the most part, they seem to be there solely for a college to claim more tenured faculty, to be seen as a well-rounded university, etc.

And then, there's the cash cow programs that flood the market with more unemployeds. Why do schools have law schools even though there's far more than enough jobless law degrees floating around the workforce? They're cash cows. 40 aspiring lawyers in a classroom paying tens of thousands in tuition to a single professor that might make a few hundred thousand annually = massive profit.

[FirstandGoal]

i think he's more commenting on the course of study the majority of women follow. was your degree in fine arts or social sciences or classics?

Not a simple answer. At the time I graduated, my degree was classified as a BS. About 7 years after graduation they changed the degree to a Pharm D and all of us were grandfathered in. Only the degree changed, everything else (pay, benefits, etc..) stayed the same but it was nice to finally get recognized appropriately for all of the years of hard work and dedication put in.

One thing I've always regretted is that I fast-tracked myself through pharmacy school in 5 years by taking 16-18 hour semesters, taking intercession courses, and taking 9 hours each summer. I was 22 by the time I was done and had my nice new shiny degree and then sat my boards and became licensed, but I definitely didn't get the most out of my college years. For me they were a blur of studying, sleepless nights, working too much, and being exhausted most of the time. If I wasn't working, going to class or studying, I was drinking and smoking way too much trying to keep both ends of the candle lit at the same time.

If I had to do that now at my age it would kill me.

[Jacie]

Which school is that Jacie?

It wasn't a school like a university, but a business that was created to meet a shortage of qualified systems analysts and it apparently has spawned a lot of copycat businesses.

I would not trade my college experience but it did not prepare me for my career and I think a "school" dedicated to training for a specific skill/knowledge set today when the cost of a four year degree runs into 6 figures makes a whole lotta sense.

[SoonerInFortSmith]

You're joking right? These days those degrees will make you competitive at running a cash register or managing a fast food joint.

Of course I'm not joking. Maybe not in Fort Smith, but in larger metropolitan areas.

The fact of the matter is it has become too easy to get into (and complete) college. It is now treated a lot like high school in many disciplines. You show up you pass in many general areas of study. As long as anyone can get in and pass the job market will be flooded. And it will only get worse as time goes by. Even in large metro areas. Basically a bachelor's degree has been cheapened over the years.

[yermom]

Not a simple answer. At the time I graduated, my degree was classified as a BS. About 7 years after graduation they changed the degree to a Pharm D and all of us were grandfathered in. Only the degree changed, everything else (pay, benefits, etc..) stayed the same but it was nice to finally get recognized appropriately for all of the years of hard work and dedication put in.

One thing I've always regretted is that I fast-tracked myself through pharmacy school in 5 years by taking 16-18 hour semesters, taking intercession courses, and taking 9 hours each summer. I was 22 by the time I was done and had my nice new shiny degree and then sat my boards and became licensed, but I definitely didn't get the most out of my college years. For me they were a blur of studying, sleepless nights, working too much, and being exhausted most of the time. If I wasn't working, going to class or studying, I was drinking and smoking way too much trying to keep both ends of the candle lit at the same time.

If I had to do that now at my age it would kill me.


that is a pretty simple answer of "no" :D

[C&CDean]

Hells to the yes! I have a couple degrees, and never spent a single dime on either of them. I did, however, work my mother****ing *** off completing them. No, mommy or daddy didn't spend a dime either. I went to work, got my employers to pay, and then was rewarded by my employers for being a smart mother****er.

If you're taking student loans for you or your children then may I humbly submit that you are a dumb mother****er? Possibly the most worthless investment on the planet. You should just throw your money off a bridge or something. You'll never recoup your costs. Never.

[C&CDean]

Hells to the yes! I have a couple degrees, and never spent a single dime on either of them. I did, however, work my mother****ing *** off completing them. No, mommy or daddy didn't spend a dime either. I went to work, got my employers to pay, and then was rewarded by my employers for being a smart mother****er.

If you're taking student loans for you or your children then may I humbly submit that you are a dumb mother****er? Possibly the most worthless investment on the planet. You should just throw your money off a bridge or something. You'll never recoup your costs. Never.

[olevetonahill]

Hells to the yes! I have a couple degrees, and never spent a single dime on either of them. I did, however, work my mother****ing *** off completing them. No, mommy or daddy didn't spend a dime either. I went to work, got my employers to pay, and then was rewarded by my employers for being a smart mother****er.

If you're taking student loans for you or your children then may I humbly submit that you are a dumb mother****er? Possibly the most worthless investment on the planet. You should just throw your money off a bridge or something. You'll never recoup your costs. Never.


Hells to the yes! I have a couple degrees, and never spent a single dime on either of them. I did, however, work my mother****ing *** off completing them. No, mommy or daddy didn't spend a dime either. I went to work, got my employers to pay, and then was rewarded by my employers for being a smart mother****er.

If you're taking student loans for you or your children then may I humbly submit that you are a dumb mother****er? Possibly the most worthless investment on the planet. You should just throw your money off a bridge or something. You'll never recoup your costs. Never.

Say it again Dean Say it again :teapot:

[cleller]

OK, is no one going to butzlip OSU for being 200 spots below OU and TU on the list?

[olevetonahill]

OK, is no one going to butzlip OSU for being 200 spots below OU and TU on the list?

Prolly would If any of us GAS about OsU

[badger]

OK, is no one going to butzlip OSU for being 200 spots below OU and TU on the list?

why bother. they'd just say that they were a school on the rise

[One4OU]

I feel very fortunate that my school was paid for by the GI Bill and my govt employer.

I would say that education for me at first was only about getting a good job, but now that I reflect back it is what taught me how to work towards goals and deadlines.

The education part plays a minimal role in my daily work and I do feel I could do my job without a degree it does provide me a feeling of accomplishment and has helped me become a better citizen.

[FirstandGoal]

that is a pretty simple answer of "no" :D

Heh, okay, I'm busted.


Hells to the yes! I have a couple degrees, and never spent a single dime on either of them. I did, however, work my mother****ing *** off completing them. No, mommy or daddy didn't spend a dime either. I went to work, got my employers to pay, and then was rewarded by my employers for being a smart mother****er.

If you're taking student loans for you or your children then may I humbly submit that you are a dumb mother****er? Possibly the most worthless investment on the planet. You should just throw your money off a bridge or something. You'll never recoup your costs. Never.

Dean, I usually agree with you on most things, but in this I have to disagree. I took out a total of just over 10K back in the early 90's to earn a degree that pays over 10x that annually today. At my age, I could work another 25 years if I wanted to. For a lot of professions student loans are a viable option and if my daughter truly plans on following in my footsteps I would advise her to do the same. I had a baby within 2 years of graduation, made a ton of crappy financial decisions, and still managed to have my student loans paid off within 3 years of graduation.

[Midtowner]

If you're taking student loans for you or your children then may I humbly submit that you are a dumb mother****er? Possibly the most worthless investment on the planet. You should just throw your money off a bridge or something. You'll never recoup your costs. Never.

Maybe if you're majoring in 18th Century Counterpoint, that's a waste.

Part of a college education is about learning how to think, how to research, solve problems, etc., the other part is specific skills. If your loans prepare you to do a certain job and you think you can earn enough money to pay those loans off fast, then it's a good investment. I racked up about $100K in student loans going to law school. I'll have it paid back about 4 years from my date of graduation. Sounds like that investment worked out for me.

[olevetonahill]

Maybe if you're majoring in 18th Century Counterpoint, that's a waste.

Part of a college education is about learning how to think, how to research, solve problems, etc., the other part is specific skills. If your loans prepare you to do a certain job and you think you can earn enough money to pay those loans off fast, then it's a good investment. I racked up about $100K in student loans going to law school. I'll have it paid back about 4 years from my date of graduation. Sounds like that investment worked out for me.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30756121.jpg

[SicEmBaylor]

Public universities are not that expensive. Yes, you may accumulate student debt but if you are NEVER able to pay back 4 years of public higher education then....well....something is seriously f'n wrong.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I know a guy who majored in political philosophy (the couture version of poli sci) with a strong minor interest in diplomatic history and sociobiology. Me
Pretty airy fairy course of study, no?
I ended up building and running plastic molding factories in Malaysia, China, and Korea oriented toward supplying the semiconductor industry and running his company's operations from Turkey to the US West coast.
I was debt-free within five years of graduation.
I also enjoyed myself by spoofing rooms full of electrical engineers into thinking that I was either a particle physicist or a chemist when delivering lectures on 'sub-angstrom reactive partlcle contamination' to industry conferences in Taiwan and Japan.

Study what flips your switch. Get very good at it. Good employers are interested more in your ability to achieve than they are in hiring a drone with an advanced degree in droning.


Mind you that, these days, a working knowledge of drones is well respected many places.


I had a roommate at OU who completed a BA and MA in Philosophy, and was all-but-dissertation for the PhD. His area was philosophy of language, analyzing the work of Spinoza.

He worked at Target during his student years and got into management out of school. Then he moved to Florida and became employed by Lockheed Martin for a dozen years. Then he moved to the utility industry - presently with Energy Systems Group.

He writes very well and he is also an articulate speaker. He can write and speak circles around the typical business or STEM major. If you come out of college with great writing skills, companies will love you.

[C&CDean]

Dave Ramsey says that anyone who takes a student loan is a fool. He'd say that someone who takes out $100k in student loans is a flat out retard.

You ain't gonna pay them off in 4 years mid. No way, no how.

[FirstandGoal]

Dave Ramsey says that anyone who takes a student loan is a fool. He'd say that someone who takes out $100k in student loans is a flat out retard.

You ain't gonna pay them off in 4 years mid. No way, no how.

100K yes. I will grant you that.
Okay serious question. My son went to UCO his first year out of high school and lived here at home. His tuition and book only ran me about 7K and I didn't take out any kind of loan.
I get it that not all kids have the option of living at home, but 25K/year of college still seems a bit extreme. My son also works pretty much full-time and even though he isn't attending college now, whenever he goes back he will continue to work to sustain his lifestyle. He now lives on his own and pays rent and all of his living expenses. If he ever does go back he is going to have to take out a few loans for tuition because I seriously can no longer afford it but how the hell does a kid rack up 100K in student loans in 4 years?

WTF? Do they not work at all?

[tator]

WTF? Do they not work at all?

Most of them don't, no

[tator]

I wonder how many people Dean just called a "dumb mother****er" with his dumb mother****ing statement? If you want a job with a good company, you have to have a degree. I'll repeat that, you have to have a degree. Period. This isn't the 50's anymore Dean.

It would be wonderful if everyone could take a no-skill job like the USPS and have their employer (read, you and I that pay our taxes) pay for their education, but not everyone has that luxury. I'm happy that it worked out for you, but making the statement that everyone who wasn't afforded that advantage is a "dumb mother****er" reaks of immature *********gery.

[pphilfran]

I wonder how many people Dean just called a "dumb mother****er" with his dumb mother****ing statement? If you want a job with a good company, you have to have a degree. I'll repeat that, you have to have a degree. Period. This isn't the 50's anymore Dean.

It would be wonderful if everyone could take a no-skill job like the USPS and have their employer (read, you and I that pay our taxes) pay for their education, but not everyone has that luxury. I'm happy that it worked out for you, but making the statement that everyone who wasn't afforded that advantage is a "dumb mother****er" reaks of immature *********gery.

That line of thinking gets people into trouble....

[yermom]

well, it doesn't do as much as it used to. your makes a difference if you don't already have skills/experience in the job you are after

[pphilfran]

A degree will help you start off at a higher level...and will raise the ceiling...but that doesn't mean that you cannot be successful in a large corp without a degree...

I think it is mindboggling that people don't even blink at a 100k student loan...

[FirstandGoal]

A degree will help you start off at a higher level...and will raise the ceiling...but that doesn't mean that you cannot be successful in a large corp without a degree...

I think it is mindboggling that people don't even blink at a 100k student loan...

Heh, I guess I'm out of the loop.

I had no idea we were talking about 6 figure educations. Hell, in my mind about the only time that would be justified would be if one were attending med school or some other 8 year program with a helluva payout at the end of it.

Again, so many kids could offset these ridiculous student loans if they would just get a part-time job.
This makes me very happy that I laid the ground rules several years ago with my own children. They both knew that of they didn't get schollies, then they had 2 choices: Live at home and I pay tuition (only if grades are made) or live on their own and pay their own rent and run the risk of not getting a college education in a timely manner.

[cleller]

It is a different ballgame now.
In the early 80s you could go to OU for a year for something like $5k (4 years= $20k) and pay your tuition, books, room and board. You get done, you'd hope to find a job paying at least $20k or better.

Today a year at OU would probably run you $20k. (4 years= $80k, if you're lucky) When you get done, you'd hope to find a job paying, what, $40k? Not quite the same multiples. Yet, depending on what you're interested in, you might have to have that degree.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

only a small percentage of students do 100k loans.

[badger]

only a small percentage of students do 100k loans.

One problem I've seen some undertake is that if they cannot find a job after a bachelor's degree, they'll return to school, emasse more student loans for a second degree, either another bachelor's or master's.

Why? Because student loan repayment doesn't start till a few months after schooling is done, so you put off needing to pay off loans by taking on MOARRRRR DEEEEEBT

At least some students only use loans for schooling expenses. I'm hearing that loans for non-schooling expenses is even more common --- dorm decor, a new car, maybe a down payment on a condo...

THIS DEBT NEVER CAN BE FORGIVEN IF YOU DEFAULT ON IT!!!!! NEVER! (unless you die)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

only a small percentage of students do 100k loans.

This is mainly because the max that a student can take out per year undergrad is $5800. Now parents on the other hand can take out up to 25k per year. Which was exactly what my daughter's student aid letter I got in the mail last week said.

I was upfront with both of my kids that they were paying for their own school. I did it, my dad did it and they could do it as well. I pulled out the same spreadsheets I used 15 years ago when I was determining whether I wanted to go to Yale for my MBA or stay in Tulsa and go to OSU ($150k vs $2500). I showed her how I came to the conclusion that Yale was just too much risk, specifically that I did NOT want to get stuck in a high paying suck out my soul job because I was a slave to the salary.

She listened to me on some things, totally ignored me on others -

Things she did right
She did go to running start and is graduating high school next month with her associates degree (net savings $61k from Wazzou).

Things she did wrong
She didn't take her standardized tests seriously (arguing with a straight face that leaving half the test blank wasn't a bad thing. sigh) (potential savings of 12k with a 50% tuition fee waiver).
She didn't apply for any outside scholarships (potential savings of 2k per year).
She didn't get her associates in a technical field (potential scholarships of 2k per year).
She didn't work while she was in high school to build up cash for college
She didn't take extra classes during running start that would save her further when she transferred to a bigger school

Because she wasn't paying attention she was floored when she got her acceptance letter to Wazzou.

Student Portion - $5800
Parent Portion - $25800 ($5000 in cash, 20,800 in loans)

I just laughed and crossed that out and penciled in a $0. I then asked her if she was going to call the university and have them try again. Wazzou rejected her appeal. At that point, I told her that she didn't have to obey their rules any more. She had 5 years to get 2 years of school done. Just get a job and go part time so that when you are done, you have $0 debt. By commuting from home, that $50k shrinks to $18k or $4500 a year which is easily doable.

[badger]

Wazzu, as in Mike Leach's Wazzu? Wow, what a time to be going to school up there. Congrats to her and you. Maybe you'll pencil in some funds for a daddy-daughter football game? :)

Part-time with job sounds really really awesome. She'll still get 5 years of the major college experience and not feel bogged down by having 5 midterms/finals in one week twice each semester

[pphilfran]

only a small percentage of students do 100k loans.

http://www.asa.org/policy/resources/stats/
Avg loan size of 24k
10% owe more than 54k (1.7 million loans)
3% more than 100k (half a million loans)
1% more than 200k (167k loans)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Wazzu, as in Mike Leach's Wazzu? Wow, what a time to be going to school up there. Congrats to her and you. Maybe you'll pencil in some funds for a daddy-daughter football game? :)

Part-time with job sounds really really awesome. She'll still get 5 years of the major college experience and not feel bogged down by having 5 midterms/finals in one week twice each semester

Yeah, that Wazzou, but on the other side of the state at a satellite campus.

edit: And as an example of the insanity of the education bubble. The price of college has gone up over 550% in the last 10 years.

[badger]

edit: And as an example of the insanity of the education bubble. The price of college has gone up over 550% in the last 10 years.

With a point of pride, I can stay that when I started my college, the pricetag still began with the number "1." Sadly, I now need to clarify that that it was a four-digit number, not a five-digit number :(

[C&CDean]

I wonder how many people Dean just called a "dumb mother****er" with his dumb mother****ing statement? If you want a job with a good company, you have to have a degree. I'll repeat that, you have to have a degree. Period. This isn't the 50's anymore Dean.

It would be wonderful if everyone could take a no-skill job like the USPS and have their employer (read, you and I that pay our taxes) pay for their education, but not everyone has that luxury. I'm happy that it worked out for you, but making the statement that everyone who wasn't afforded that advantage is a "dumb mother****er" reaks of immature *********gery.

Cut too close to the bone? Don't blame me cause you're a dumb mother****er.

And FWIW, there were roughly 1 million Postal employees when they were paying for my education. There were <5,000 getting their education paid for. You had to be pretty special and apply yourself to be considered. It ain't like they were just giving tuition away to any dumb mother****er.

Finally, Dave Ramsey says you're FOS on the "must have a degree" deal. I'm with him. My younger brother is a District Manager with a large gas/electric/construction outfit out of Las Vegas. Worked his way up from starting as a welder. He has all of Colorado, Wyoming, Nebraska, and parts of New Mexico and Utah in his area. He earns well into the 6 figures. He is a proud high school grad who never darkened the door of a college of any kind. Not even a Vo-tech.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Cut too close to the bone? Don't blame me cause you're a dumb mother****er.

And FWIW, there were roughly 1 million Postal employees when they were paying for my education. There were <5,000 getting their education paid for. You had to be pretty special and apply yourself to be considered. It ain't like they were just giving tuition away to any dumb mother****er.

Finally, Dave Ramsey says you're FOS on the "must have a degree" deal. I'm with him. My younger brother is a District Manager with a large gas/electric/construction outfit out of Las Vegas. Worked his way up from starting as a welder. He has all of Colorado, Wyoming, Nebraska, and parts of New Mexico and Utah in his area. He earns well into the 6 figures. He is a proud high school grad who never darkened the door of a college of any kind. Not even a Vo-tech.

The problem is that your younger brother would have a really hard time migrating that to another employer without outside influence (IE word of mouth about how great he is). As I had to explain to my daughter a million times, the corporate world currently has 2 filters before you get to an interview:

1. Electronic - These are typically the ones that eliminate most candidates without a degree. Its just way too easy to set "College Level" or above and no one without that gest by that gate.

2. HR - These are a little more varied based on the person's knowledge of the position (which ranges from none to everything). In the tech industry, this step is abysmal because you have to make sure that whatever keywords they are looking for are on your resume. For example, if you put web services or SOA or self-contained web apps on your resume and they are looking for "cloud computing" they are going to bypass you even though you said synonyms.

What degrees, certifications, and experience do is help you to bypass these 2 idiotic filters. To give an example, I have been offered over 20 jobs at MSFT by managers that I have worked for there. As a game, I have applied for the same jobs through the external MSFT website and have not once gotten a call from HR. My resume is such that I sometimes get consulting gigs without an interview, but I can't get through their external filters.

Now, is a college degree necessary to succeed? No. Is it a good investment? Well that depends. A college degree allows you flexibility to create your own upward mobility in ways that people without a degree can't.

For example, Dean's little brother. Had he hired into this construction company and had a personality conflict with a boss who stayed there as long as he did, there is a good chance that he never would have raised to the level of District Manager. If you are lucky enough to be the "Golden Boy" at a company then yes you can have upward mobility. The problem is that most people aren't that lucky.

[C&CDean]

Don't get me wrong. I'm all about getting a college degree. I also agree that it opens many, many doors for opportunity that may not be available to the non-degreed person. In my own career I got some higher-level manager jobs in a couple cases because there was a degree requirement on the job posting and some of the other candidates didn't have one.

I've learned that the only thing my Master's degree is good for is to make a nice ego wall. I'm glad I did it, and I learned a lot about a lot of things - things like how white males are to blame for all the world's ills. You know, stuff like that.

If there's any way possible a kid can go to school without taking student loans then that's the route they should take. Most are too lazy. Or expect mommy and daddy to pay. My point is that one should explore/attempt every opportunity (which means go to work first, get degree second) available before taking a SL.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Yep, that is why I sat down with her and explained ROI on degrees. It is okay to spend money on something if you know that you are going to get a good return on it. That $2500 I paid Pokey State for my MBA has returned a crazy amount of multiples on itself. Outside of helping some small business peeps, I have used it maybe a dozen times since I got it. However, that thing is equivalent to a lifetime pass to the front of the line at Walt Disney World when it comes to jobs.

One thing that you are missing with the pay to go to college route is that most of those kids have a serious disconnect with reality when they enter the job world. I to this day remember what it was like tossing 30lb aluminum ingots into a 1600 degree furnace for 10 hours a day. Half the people I work with went from college back to junior high and make it incredibly hard to get crap done.

[badger]

Can you still have her on your insurance if she's only going part-time? I remember needing to send a transcript/schedule to my parents' insurance company each semester to prove that not only I was enrolled, but for how many hours/classes.

[C&CDean]

Can you still have her on your insurance if she's only going part-time? I remember needing to send a transcript/schedule to my parents' insurance company each semester to prove that not only I was enrolled, but for how many hours/classes.

I don't know about insurance, but if you're going part-time and living at home your parents can still claim you as a dependent.

Another thing about this whole degree business. I'd estimate that 90+% of 18 year old high school grads haven't got a ****ing clue what they wanna be when they grow up. For this vast majority of kids, going straight to college is a massive waste of $$ - especially if they're taking loans to do it. They (and their parents) should be wise enough to encourage the military or going to work first and spending a couple years just growing up/learning about life. Then, when they're a bit more mature and maybe know what they're interested in go after the degree. All the time they're working they should be saving for college.

Also, I worked with some folks who were all "a college degree for my kid is the most important thing in the world" and they took out loans, refinanced their home, did without, etc. just so their kid could get a degree. Never getting paid back, and in some cases not even a "thanks mommy for the degree."

The exception to all this is when the kid is motivated as hell, worked hard in high school, got them a bunch of scholarship/financial goodies, and is at school for school and not the party. These kids are pretty rare anymore.

[badger]

The exception to all this is when the kid is motivated as hell, worked hard in high school, got them a bunch of scholarship/financial goodies, and is at school for school and not the party. These kids are pretty rare anymore.

I kind of fell into this category. The band was forced to sit through senior awards night to play the intro and outro march music and year after year, it was quite apparent that only a few students applied for the vast array of financial (or just honorary) awards. There's also the annual bemoanment of "I should have tried harder," and silly little naive me being astonished that these older kids that I looked up to and admired were not honors students or not award winners.

Kids, if you read this board, go forth and aim to sweep senior awards night. If you're worried about teasing and backlash afterward, do a little dance and sing "I'm leaving in a week for the University of Oklahoma!"

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I don't know about insurance, but if you're going part-time and living at home your parents can still claim you as a dependent.

Another thing about this whole degree business. I'd estimate that 90+% of 18 year old high school grads haven't got a ****ing clue what they wanna be when they grow up. For this vast majority of kids, going straight to college is a massive waste of $$ - especially if they're taking loans to do it. They (and their parents) should be wise enough to encourage the military or going to work first and spending a couple years just growing up/learning about life. Then, when they're a bit more mature and maybe know what they're interested in go after the degree. All the time they're working they should be saving for college.

Also, I worked with some folks who were all "a college degree for my kid is the most important thing in the world" and they took out loans, refinanced their home, did without, etc. just so their kid could get a degree. Never getting paid back, and in some cases not even a "thanks mommy for the degree."

The exception to all this is when the kid is motivated as hell, worked hard in high school, got them a bunch of scholarship/financial goodies, and is at school for school and not the party. These kids are pretty rare anymore.


I see lots of Asian parents who start preparing their kids to get into a prestigious university program as soon as the kid is born. Life revolves around this. They will even take a second job, send their kids to special summer and after-school programs, do whatever it takes.

So many of these kids get accepted into programs like bioengineering at UCLA, UC San Diego, Harvey Mudd, Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, Stanford, etc. Or second tier may be pre-dental or pre-pharmacy. Or maybe they go to schools such as Cal Poly or San Jose State in one of the natural sciences, computer science, pre-health profession or engineering. I see students six years out of high school make 90K as a pharmacist, so there is a good return on investment.

This is why you see 50% Asian-descent student body in the best California universities.

[C&CDean]

I see lots of Asian parents who start preparing their kids to get into a prestigious university program as soon as the kid is born. Life revolves around this. They will even take a second job, send their kids to special summer and after-school programs, do whatever it takes.

So many of these kids get accepted into programs like bioengineering at UCLA, UC San Diego, Harvey Mudd, Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, Stanford, etc. Or second tier may be pre-dental or pre-pharmacy. Or maybe they go to schools such as Cal Poly or San Jose State in one of the natural sciences, computer science, pre-health profession or engineering. I see students six years out of high school make 90K as a pharmacist, so there is a good return on investment.

This is why you see 50% Asian-descent student body in the best California universities.

True enough. What Asians also do is take care of/respect their elders. If mom and pop sacrificed to put little Yang through college you can damn sure bet little Yang is helping mom and pop out later on.

In our culture, mom and pop pay for everything - including a car, housing, insurance, etc. and when little Johnny gets his degree he goes "mom, pop, loan me some money and quit asking about what I want it for. It's my right."

[badger]

Anyone else immediately think of the "Asian father" Internet meme? :P

If you haven't heard of it, Google Image Search "Asian father" for examples

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I see lots of Asian parents who start preparing their kids to get into a prestigious university program as soon as the kid is born. Life revolves around this. They will even take a second job, send their kids to special summer and after-school programs, do whatever it takes.

So many of these kids get accepted into programs like bioengineering at UCLA, UC San Diego, Harvey Mudd, Cal Tech, UC Berkeley, Stanford, etc. Or second tier may be pre-dental or pre-pharmacy. Or maybe they go to schools such as Cal Poly or San Jose State in one of the natural sciences, computer science, pre-health profession or engineering. I see students six years out of high school make 90K as a pharmacist, so there is a good return on investment.

This is why you see 50% Asian-descent student body in the best California universities.

They have a name - tiger parents.

http://blogs.wsj.com/scene/2013/05/16/tiger-mom-amy-chua-responds-to-tiger-baby/

Personally, I think it is one of those things that will fade away generationally.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

They have a name - tiger parents.

http://blogs.wsj.com/scene/2013/05/16/tiger-mom-amy-chua-responds-to-tiger-baby/

Personally, I think it is one of those things that will fade away generationally.

It probably does fade away in some families by 3rd generation, but not always.

Similar to the Asian educational mindset, you see east-coast Jewish families prep their kids from a very early age for one of the Ivy League institutions or other prestigious east coast schools like MIT. This often does not fade away generationally. It's part of the culture.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Another thing about this whole degree business. I'd estimate that 90+% of 18 year old high school grads haven't got a ****ing clue what they wanna be when they grow up. For this vast majority of kids, going straight to college is a massive waste of $$ - especially if they're taking loans to do it. They (and their parents) should be wise enough to encourage the military or going to work first and spending a couple years just growing up/learning about life. Then, when they're a bit more mature and maybe know what they're interested in go after the degree. All the time they're working they should be saving for college.

This is the reason that I told my daughter to get a business degree. It basically serves as a placeholder until you figure out what you want to do. I explained the frustration that I had trying to find programming gigs with my Chem E degree. One memorable moment was an actual phone interview with some hack in Tulsa.

"We are a manufacturing facility, we don't need any chemists"
"Um, I'm applying for the programming position in C++"
"How on earth would a chemical engineering degree help you there?"
"I have a minor in CS and have been programming for a while"
"not seeing it"
"Okay then, what is your degree in?"
"History"
"Whoops, I thought this was HR not the history department, can you patch me through to someone who isn't a historian?"
*click*

What you want is a degree that doesn't pigeon-hole you unless you WANT to be pigeon-holed.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

It probably does fade away in some families by 3rd generation, but not always.

Similar to the Asian educational mindset, you see east-coast Jewish families prep their kids from a very early age for one of the Ivy League institutions or other prestigious east coast schools like MIT. This often does not fade away generationally. It's part of the culture.

I'm not saying that there won't be a core of people who stick with it for a 5000 years. What I'm saying is that the movement won't get larger because out of every generation there will be contrarians that will break away. The impact of this on the size of the group will be determined by family size. If you have 3 kids and 2 hold the line, then your movement will get bigger. The problem with the Tiger families is that they tend to be small groups (1-2 kids) and therefore more prone to moving away from the strictness of their parents.

[FirstandGoal]

I don't know about insurance, but if you're going part-time and living at home your parents can still claim you as a dependent.

Another thing about this whole degree business. I'd estimate that 90+% of 18 year old high school grads haven't got a ****ing clue what they wanna be when they grow up. For this vast majority of kids, going straight to college is a massive waste of $$ - especially if they're taking loans to do it. They (and their parents) should be wise enough to encourage the military or going to work first and spending a couple years just growing up/learning about life. Then, when they're a bit more mature and maybe know what they're interested in go after the degree. All the time they're working they should be saving for college.

Also, I worked with some folks who were all "a college degree for my kid is the most important thing in the world" and they took out loans, refinanced their home, did without, etc. just so their kid could get a degree. Never getting paid back, and in some cases not even a "thanks mommy for the degree."

The exception to all this is when the kid is motivated as hell, worked hard in high school, got them a bunch of scholarship/financial goodies, and is at school for school and not the party. These kids are pretty rare anymore.

My oldest child definitely falls into the first category. After he lived at home his first year out of high school and went to UCO and made "meh" grades, we mutually decided it would be in his best interest to not go to school the following year. That was one year ago. Since then he's moved out and has lived on his own and has a full-time job and pays all his own bills. He's learning loads about life and I have no worries that the kid won't eventually make something out of himself. Whether that something involves a college degree or not remains to be seen.

Child #2 falls into the second category. Highly motivated, is a self-starter and very much wants to go to college and pretty much knows what she's going to do for a career.

Wow, I just realized how odd that is. Usually it is the eldest child who is the more responsible type and the baby of the family who needs more time to grow up. Just goes to show you how -- in general-- boys need more time to mature than girls.

[8timechamps]

I didn't read this whole thing, but I'll add my two cents anyway.

It all comes down to personal drive. If you have it, you'll succeed with or without a formal education. If you have it sometimes, then a formal education will be key to your success. If you don't have it, then it doesn't matter, you'll fail.

That's about as simple as it can be.

[usmc-sooner]

I don't see why anyone cares.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I don't worry too much about those who graduate with 20 or 25 K of debt, as long as they took advantage of all college has to offer - inside and outside the classroom.

The ones I feel bad for, are those who went to college and were over their heads, intellectually, and drop out after 2 or 3 years with no degree and lots of debt.

It makes me sick to see kids who make C's in Algebra II in high school and score 450 on the MATH SAT and think they are going to be electrical engineers - only to have their *** handed to them in Calculus and Biology. Or the kid who thinks he's pre-med and gets reamed in chemistry.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

This is the reason that I told my daughter to get a business degree. It basically serves as a placeholder until you figure out what you want to do. I explained the frustration that I had trying to find programming gigs with my Chem E degree. One memorable moment was an actual phone interview with some hack in Tulsa.

"We are a manufacturing facility, we don't need any chemists"
"Um, I'm applying for the programming position in C++"
"How on earth would a chemical engineering degree help you there?"
"I have a minor in CS and have been programming for a while"
"not seeing it"
"Okay then, what is your degree in?"
"History"
"Whoops, I thought this was HR not the history department, can you patch me through to someone who isn't a historian?"
*click*

What you want is a degree that doesn't pigeon-hole you unless you WANT to be pigeon-holed.



I'm not commenting specifically about your daughter's situation, but in general, I think an undergraduate degree in something like English, Economics, History, Math, Philosophy, Engineering, Computer Science, or Physics with some coursework in business - like the accounting courses and a few others --- following by an MBA --- really distinguishes oneself. There are a gazillion undergrad business majors.

One of my idols is Will Danoff, mutual fund manager of Fidelity Contrafund. No doubt a multi-millionaire. He was a history major and then went to Penn's Wharton School for his MBA.

[CatfishSooner]

history major ftw...

[Midtowner]

Dave Ramsey says that anyone who takes a student loan is a fool. He'd say that someone who takes out $100k in student loans is a flat out retard.

You ain't gonna pay them off in 4 years mid. No way, no how.

Been socking away 20% of my paycheck for exactly that purpose through our firm's SEP program and making greater than the normal payments. It'll be next month or maybe the month after and I'll wipe out my SEP, pay the penalties (I don't care, I want the cash flow) and I'll have it done. There's no way I could have paid for law school in cash, so my earning potential without this degree was quite a bit less. Dave Ramsey says some smart stuff, but on this point, he's dead wrong.

[Midtowner]

100K yes. I will grant you that.
Okay serious question. My son went to UCO his first year out of high school and lived here at home. His tuition and book only ran me about 7K and I didn't take out any kind of loan.
I get it that not all kids have the option of living at home, but 25K/year of college still seems a bit extreme. My son also works pretty much full-time and even though he isn't attending college now, whenever he goes back he will continue to work to sustain his lifestyle. He now lives on his own and pays rent and all of his living expenses. If he ever does go back he is going to have to take out a few loans for tuition because I seriously can no longer afford it but how the hell does a kid rack up 100K in student loans in 4 years?

WTF? Do they not work at all?

Law school.

I worked, sometimes three jobs at once in undergrad and had most of my schooling paid by a music scholarship. Graduated from undergrad with zero debt. Law school started at $750/credit hour and ended around $1,000/credit hour. Paying cash with some hourly wage job when I wasn't allowed to work more than 25 hours a week by ABA regulations wasn't really an option.

[8timechamps]

My kids are in a much better situation than I was. They will have their education paid for, but they will also be expect to work while in school.

I "let" uncle Sam pay for my education, but I had to take a trip to the middle east to earn it.

[C&CDean]

Been socking away 20% of my paycheck for exactly that purpose through our firm's SEP program and making greater than the normal payments. It'll be next month or maybe the month after and I'll wipe out my SEP, pay the penalties (I don't care, I want the cash flow) and I'll have it done. There's no way I could have paid for law school in cash, so my earning potential without this degree was quite a bit less. Dave Ramsey says some smart stuff, but on this point, he's dead wrong.

No, he's not "dead wrong." He's spot on. If your story is halfway true (I'm betting it's enhanced some) you would be the very rare exception - and you're still paying more in interest/penalties than you oughta be.

I also regularly do something he preaches against. I use 2 credit cards. One for my expenses at work (Marriott points), and one for gas/groceries/big ticket items, etc. (American Airlines). I pay them both off every month; but according to Ramsey it's a major no-no because most people eventually get themselves too deep to pay off the balance. He also claims that one spends more when using a card rather than cash.

[Midtowner]

I do the same with my CCs. I haven't looked, but I probably make $500-$600 per year in cash rewards.

A lot of student debt pays off. Mine has. THere's no way I could as of 2013 be making the salary I make without the law degree. I knew what the cost of schooling would be. With a few exceptions, no one pays cash for something like law school where nowadays tuition runs in the $1000/credit hour range. It's an investment and it's not without risk.

Of course, by far, it's probably the best investment I've ever made.

[SoonerAtKU]

I think you and Dean are sort of the exceptions proving the rule. That guy isn't selling his course to people who are already good at money management, so it probably doesn't apply to you two. My understanding is that it's designed to break bad habits or to counter some already problematic behavior like credit card spending. If you're on top of it and managing it honestly, then using a credit card and paying it off before accruing interest is BETTER than cash if you get those rewards.

The problem is that there aren't quite enough people out there that are as fiscally responsible, so they probably do need the hard rule of "no credit at all".

[SanJoaquinSooner]

This is the reason that I told my daughter to get a business degree. It basically serves as a placeholder until you figure out what you want to do. I explained the frustration that I had trying to find programming gigs with my Chem E degree. One memorable moment was an actual phone interview with some hack in Tulsa.

"We are a manufacturing facility, we don't need any chemists"
"Um, I'm applying for the programming position in C++"
"How on earth would a chemical engineering degree help you there?"
"I have a minor in CS and have been programming for a while"
"not seeing it"
"Okay then, what is your degree in?"
"History"
"Whoops, I thought this was HR not the history department, can you patch me through to someone who isn't a historian?"
*click*

What you want is a degree that doesn't pigeon-hole you unless you WANT to be pigeon-holed.


I might add that it is unfortunate that an HR guy was the one doing the expertise screening. He probably worked off a script.