Whoa Whoa Whoa Wait a MInute I gots a Question

[olevetonahill]

All Yall are sayin This Ghey stuff is OK Right? Them Folk was Borned that way and so WE should just accept them. Am I correct?
Please give me yer answers straight up.

[olevetonahill]

So do, No one want to answer?

[OU_Sooners75]

God says they were not born that way.

So no, it is not okay!

Heck, even if you arent religious, the laws of Nature says they were not born that way.

Humans are just like any other creature. They must reproduce to thrive. The only way they can reproduce is between man and woman. Therefore, nature says gays are not born that way. in other words, not natural.

[Blue]

Apart from Christ, we are all guilty. The flesh is weak. Now I know quoting scripture to unbelievers is almost worthless bc that is not their authority, but I think it useful bc its the viewpoint of people who do believe it.

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them

[olevetonahill]

Ok,Now can the other folks answer?

[Blue]

Was that not sufficient? /End Thread/ as far as Im concerned. ;)

[OU_Sooners75]

BTW, for you lost ones, Blue's first post was from the book of Romans in the bible.

[soonerhubs]

To say that there aren't folks born with same-sex attraction is silly. The research is clear.

The first point is irrelevant when discussing the second: http://bible.cc/mark/12-31.htm

[Blue]

To say that there aren't folks born with same-sex attraction is silly. The research is clear.

The first point is irrelevant when discussing the second: http://bible.cc/mark/12-31.htm

Yes love your neighbor, but expose and do not tolerate sin. I can point you to 10 scriptures saying as much. Heck, I just posted one. You take your research, I'll take the word of God.

Aaand I'm done posting tonight. Heh. Have a good one Hubler.

[olevetonahill]

To say that there aren't folks born with same-sex attraction is silly. The research is clear.

The first point is irrelevant when discussing the second: http://bible.cc/mark/12-31.htm

Son then Hubs Yer saying It's a NATURAL thing?

[soonerhubs]

Yes love your neighbor, but expose and do not tolerate sin. I can point you to 10 scriptures saying as much. Heck, I just posted one. You take your research, I'll take the word of God.

Aaand I'm done posting tonight. Heh. Have a good one Hubler.


All the best, good sir.

[OU_Sooners75]

To say that there aren't folks born with same-sex attraction is silly. The research is clear.

The first point is irrelevant when discussing the second: http://bible.cc/mark/12-31.htm

It isnt silly.

We are all programmed with different attractions. Its also been shown that quite a few men are attracted to younger girls (early teens)...but they don't react on it. Its against the law...and if you do react on that attraction, you likely will be given the modern day scarlet letter of P, as in pedophile.

[soonerhubs]

Son then Hubs Yer saying It's a NATURAL thing?

Absolutely. Anyone who works in the medical profession can see with their eyes that folks are born in multiple shapes and sizes. If there are variations in physiology why wouldn't that include hormone levels that modulate sexual attraction? It is absolutely a natural phenomenon, as real as my blue eyes, balding head, and goofy looks.

[soonerhubs]

It isnt silly.

We are all programmed with different attractions. Its also been shown that quite a few men are attracted to younger girls (early teens)...but they don't react on it. Its against the law...and if you do react on that attraction, you likely will be given the modern day scarlet letter of P, as in pedophile.

1) It IS silly not to acknowledge that attractions in and of themselves exist.
2) Making pedophilia equivalent to the acts, desires, and preferences of 2 consenting adults is flawed.

I'm perfectly fine with someone believing the act of homosexuality is a sin. That's their right. However, the 14th amendment provides equal protection under the law and yes that should include those who seek same-sex marriage. It's a constitutional issue, not a theological or even sociological one.

[olevetonahill]

Absolutely. Anyone who works in the medical profession can see with their eyes that folks are born in multiple shapes and sizes. If there are variations in physiology why wouldn't that include hormone levels that modulate sexual attraction? It is absolutely a natural phenomenon, as real as my blue eyes, balding head, and goofy looks.

So then being a Homo is NATURAL?

[yermom]

who cares what consenting adults do?

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/7/S/4/gay-marriage-bible-constitution.jpg

[soonerhubs]

So then being a Homo is NATURAL?

For some folks, the answer to your question is a solid yes.

[Blue]

Some vessels were born for wrath.

Now that ought to ruffle some feathers.

[olevetonahill]

who cares what consenting adults do?

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/7/S/4/gay-marriage-bible-constitution.jpg

Not my Question Dave,
My Question is
Is Gay Ok and Is/was it Preordained?

[soonerhubs]

Some vessels were born for wrath.

Now that ought to ruffle some feathers.


This doesn't ruffle mine. :)

I thank God that I don't have to judge one vessel from the other when it comes to determining wrath. I'll leave that to the ultimate judge. Not this fat Okie that lives in Utah. ;)

[olevetonahill]

For some folks, the answer to your question is a solid yes.

So, we agree that its a Natural thing?

[Blue]

This doesn't ruffle mine. :)

I thank God that I don't have to judge one vessel from the other when it comes to determining wrath. I'll leave that to the ultimate judge. Not this fat Okie that lives in Utah. ;)

And thats the truth. Just pulling that quote felt damning. Like God saying. "Oh really?"

[soonerhubs]

Not my Question Dave,
My Question is
Is Gay Ok and Is/was it Preordained?

I shall answer your question with another question:


Is being born with ambiguous genitalia preordained? If so, how does that card get sorted?


I personally think the Lord, in his infinite mercy, knows the personal burdens we each have to carry, so I leave it to Him, while I work on my own self-improvements.

[OU_Sooners75]

1) It IS silly not to acknowledge that attractions in and of themselves exist.
2) Making pedophilia equivalent to the acts, desires, and preferences of 2 consenting adults is flawed.

I'm perfectly fine with someone believing the act of homosexuality is a sin. That's their right. However, the 14th amendment provides equal protection under the law and yes that should include those who seek same-sex marriage. It's a constitutional issue, not a theological or even sociological one.

Attraction does not mean its normal or your born to be something.

I am attracted to wealth...but I am not wealthy...lol

But there was a OSU student that was obviously attracted to horses. Should we allow him to marry the damned thing?

[soonerhubs]

So, we agree that its a Natural thing?

Howard, I don't know how to answer this in the affirmative many other ways.

Yes. Yes, and most certainly, yes. :D

[yermom]

Some vessels were born for wrath.

Now that ought to ruffle some feathers.

**** like this is where religion lost me. god either doesn't care, or he's an *******

tell me again how he KILLED Job's family just to prove a point. it's all fine though, he had more kids.

[soonerhubs]

Attraction does not mean its normal or your born to be something.

I am attracted to wealth...but I am not wealthy...lol

But there was a OSU student that was obviously attracted to horses. Should we allow him to marry the damned thing?


I have yet to see many horses signing contracts, closing on houses, or being prosecuted in courts of law. I could be wrong.

[olevetonahill]

:sneakiness:

[OU_Sooners75]

I have yet to see many horses signing contracts, closing on houses, or being prosecuted in courts of law. I could be wrong.

But that horse's partner could legally on its behalf...LOL

That said...Hubler...you a Christian?

If so, is the bible the Word of God?

If so, is the Word of God, the Truth?

If so, then why don't you believe that Truth?

[Blue]

The only way I can answer that is that he knows and he is so much smarter (Like infinity) smarter than us and this life is very short. We all have to die. Maybe there shouldn't be as much value placed on life itself as recognizing for 1 second who created it in the first place.

And as always who are we to question him? He can do what he wants. He owes us nothing. But in his mercy and grace he gave everyone an opportunity to acknowledge him. Straights and gays alike.

In fact as I believe he lived as a man and suffered a more grueling death than anyone could suffer. As a father he freely gave his son for people who hated him. Anyway Im ranting.

[soonerhubs]

But that horse's partner could legally on its behalf...LOL

That said...Hubler...you a Christian? Yes

If so, is the bible the Word of God? As far as it is translated correctly.

If so, is the Word of God, the Truth? The word of God? Yes. It's the Truth

If so, then why don't you believe that Truth? I feel like I do. Heck most Christians think I'm heading straight to hell anyways due to my Mormonism, but that debate will have to wait for another day. Bottom line: I believe in God, and I believe he loves each and every one of his children. Can I explain it all? Not even close. Will I have a few things wrong? Absolutely.
...

[soonerhubs]

The only way I can answer that is that he knows and he is so much smarter (Like infinity) smarter than us and this life is very short. We all have to die. Maybe there shouldn't be as much value placed on life itself as recognizing for 1 second who created it in the first place.

And as always who are we to question him? He can do what he wants. He owes us nothing. But in his mercy and grace he gave everyone an opportunity to acknowledge him. Straights and gays alike.

In fact as I believe he lived as a man and suffered a more grueling death than anyone could suffer. As a father he freely gave his son for people who hated him. Anyway Im ranting.

I'm okay with rants. That's what makes this country great. :) You rant away. FWIW, Proverbs 3:5-6 are two of my favorite verses.

[OU_Sooners75]

...

Honest answer. I like that.

I agree with almost everything you said. But I don't, nor will ever, say someone is headed for hell because of their particular beliefs.

And I think we all get it wrong more often than we get it right.

[yermom]

The only way I can answer that is that he knows and he is so much smarter (Like infinity) smarter than us and this life is very short. We all have to die. Maybe there shouldn't be as much value placed on life itself as recognizing for 1 second who created it in the first place.

And as always who are we to question him? He can do what he wants. He owes us nothing. But in his mercy and grace he gave everyone an opportunity to acknowledge him. Straights and gays alike.

In fact as I believe he lived as a man and suffered a more grueling death than anyone could suffer. As a father he freely gave his son for people who hated him. Anyway Im ranting.

this is the crap you get fed so that you just toil away your life and make your masters rich. it's worked on the masses for a long time now.

and again with the trinity. some crazy doctrine that doesn't make any sense added to the KJV

Jesus sure spends a lot of time talking about how great his father is for them to be the same person.

and if life is just the brief moment to God, what is a little torture at the end of it?

[cleller]

Still waiting on the Big Reveal, punch-line, shoe to drop....

[olevetonahill]

Still waiting on the Big Reveal, punch-line, shoe to drop....

Whut?
Im really Curious about this.

[cleller]

Whut?
Im really Curious about this.

I thought you were going to spring something big, like being gay is no more natural than being attracted to birds or snakes or something.

[olevetonahill]

I thought you were going to spring something big, like being gay is no more natural than being attracted to birds or snakes or something.

Me? Im just a curious person. :abnormal:

[C&CDean]

IDGAF. Just so long as they can make momma's curtains and carpet match, give her a good haircut, and dunk a basketball. These are the most important things they offer.

[badger]

I remember George W. Bush being asked in a debate if gays were "born that way," and he answered "I simply don't know."

My personal feelings are about the same. Are they born that way? Is it a result of the environment and values they grew up with? Is it a personal choice or a personal lifestyle? I just don't know.

And frankly, 99.9 percent of the time I just don't give a sh!t. If it results in bullying, verbal and physical abuse, etc., then it becomes an issue... and as my percentage suggests, I've personally only witnessed that 0.1 percent of the time when being around gay people.

[KantoSooner]

Okay, if you value scientific observation, experimentation and data, then the answer is unreservedly 'yes', it's a natural pre-disposition. Now, just as you can be an alcoholic and never take a drink, you can be gay and never have sex with anyone, or have hetero-sex your life through. It might make you a sad, crabbed little person who never knows the fullness of real love, but it can be done. Think of the celebates you know. It's a valid lifestyle choice but one that limits them to a very cramped understanding of life, joy and many of the good things this life offers.
In all cultures, at all times, there has been homosexuality. In other great apes, there is homosexuality. There is suggestive behavior in virtually all other animal species. It would see that some percentage of animals are simply gay.
whether this is aberrant behavior or not, it would certainly seem to be genetically rooted rather than any societally engendered thing.
At least in humans, gayness can have a genetic benefit to the gay person in that it produces a differential survival and resulting reproductive success rate in nieces and nephews. This can be seen most starkly in the case of hunter/gatherer and herding societies where gayness is most strictly associated with the priestly classes (witch doctors, 'wise women', shamen and the like) and the tremendous benefits their collateral relations garnered by virtue of that association.
Are there some gay people who are that way due to fashion and perhaps the presence of an influential person at a vulnerable point in their lives? It would be impossible to say, 'no'. Those individuals, however, do not seem to represent the bulk of the gay population.

And no, Howard, that does not mean that I find you to be a fine looking man. Get those thoughts right out of your dirty old mind.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So then being a Homo is NATURAL?



Most people are right handed, but some are left handed. For the left handed people it is natural to be left handed.

and of course there are a few bi-handed folks.

[olevetonahill]

So, Then Yall ARE sayin we should accept the fact that some are gay and just go on with life?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So, Then Yall ARE sayin we should accept the fact that some are gay and just go on with life?

Vet, you are a wise man.

[C&CDean]

So, Then Yall ARE sayin we should accept the fact that some are gay and just go on with life?

Some are gay, some are necros, some are pedos, some are cornholers, some are stupid, some are obnoxious. Not much anyone can do about it.

Yeah, just go on with life...as long as it ain't hurting me. If it does, then all bets are off.

[KantoSooner]

That'd be my position. Same rules as everybody else: consenting adults, formally illegal hookery, no multiple marriage, yadda yadda.

[jkjsooner]

All Yall are sayin This Ghey stuff is OK Right? Them Folk was Borned that way and so WE should just accept them. Am I correct?
Please give me yer answers straight up.

Do you think that you could choose to be attracted to other men?

I can't speak for you but my attraction towards women rather than men is about as natural as my desire to breath and eat. I couldn't possibly choose to be attracted to men.

That all leads me to believe that homosexuality must be inherent. Whether it's genetic or something that happens in the womb or early childhood really makes little difference. We've all known people who acted sort of gay before they had any clue about sexuality and most of them turned out to be gay.


That being said, my gay cousin just posted a picture of himself exposing his abs and discussing about how hard he's been working out. I simply don't need to see that crap. And you wonder why I always thought he was a little narcissistic self absorbed punk...

[jkjsooner]

Humans are just like any other creature. They must reproduce to thrive. The only way they can reproduce is between man and woman. Therefore, nature says gays are not born that way. in other words, not natural.

Are you saying it's impossible for someone to be born without the ability to reproduce?

[OU_Sooners75]

this is the crap you get fed so that you just toil away your life and make your masters rich. it's worked on the masses for a long time now.

and again with the trinity. some crazy doctrine that doesn't make any sense added to the KJV

Jesus sure spends a lot of time talking about how great his father is for them to be the same person.

and if life is just the brief moment to God, what is a little torture at the end of it?

Yermom, I like you. You are a great person IMO. I have enjoyed talking with you when at games or tailgates.

That said, You really fail at the understanding of the New Testament if you really think all Jesus does is talk about how good God is.

He does prop God up, quite often. But He also a great teacher.

Maybe instead of reading the bible with a made up mind, you should read it with an open mind. Maybe then you will fully understand the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[OU_Sooners75]

Here is one of many studies of homosexuality. The study I am sharing has to do with Identical Twin Brothers.

http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html


The Importance of Twin Studies


N. E. Whitehead, Ph.D.
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.jpg A constant stream of media articles--several per year--assures us that there is a link between homosexuality and biological features. These articles mention genes, brain structure, hormone levels in the womb, ear characteristics, fingerprint styles, finger lengths, verbal skills...... and by the time you read this, some others may have appeared. The headlines imply that people are born with tendencies which infallibly will make them gay or lesbian, and that change of sexual orientation will be impossible.
Individually some of these pieces are not very convincing, but the sheer volume of them suggests that they must amount to an overwhelming influence--or if not, further research will add to them and make it so. This is not true either, and we see shortly that twin studies refute it.

Twin Studies Twin studies in their modern form investigate both identical and fraternal twins, but this article emphasizes studies of identical twins, which are sufficient for our purposes. Studies of non-identical twins are detailed elsewhere (1).
Earlier studies mostly used informal or "snowball" samples of twins recruited from gay and lesbian associations, and by advertisements (e.g. 2,3). Such studies are possibly biased by the nature of twins who volunteer, but even so, if one identical twin was homosexual, only about half the time was the co-twin concordant (i.e. also homosexual).
Better research, however, was based on twins who were recruited for other reasons, and only subsequently asked about their sexual orientation. These are known as "registry" studies, and they similarly gave a concordance rate between identical twins of less than 50%. There have been two major published registry studies (4,5), one based on the Minnesota Registry, the other on the Australian Registry. The larger of the two registry studies is the Australian one, done by Bailey, Martin and others at the University of Queensland. Using the 14,000+ Australian twin collection, they found that if one twin was homosexual, 38% of the time his identical brother was too. For lesbianism the concordance was 30%. Whether 30% or 50% concordance (snowball samples), all the studies agree it is clearly not 100%.
The critical factor is that if one identical twin is homosexual, only sometimes is the co-twin homosexual. There is no argument about this in the scientific community.

Interpretation Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality. This conclusion has been well known in the scientific community for a few decades (e.g. 6) but has not reached the general public. Indeed, the public increasingly believes the opposite.
Identical twins had essentially the same upbringing. Suppose homosexuality resulted from some interaction with parents that infallibly made children homosexual. Then if one twin was homosexual, the other would also always be homosexual. But as we saw above, if one is homosexual, the other is usually not. Family factors may be an influence, but on average do not compel people to be homosexual.
Twin studies suggest that as a class, events unique to each twin--neither genetic nor family influences--are more frequent than genetic influences or family influences. But many individual family factors (such as the distant father) are commoner than the individual unique factors. Unique events would include seduction, sexual abuse, chance sexual encounters, or particular reactions to sensitive events, when young. Everyone has their own unique path which only partly follows that of the theoreticians!
A fascinating sidelight on all this comes from the work of Bailey (7). His team asked non-concordant identical twins (one was homosexual, one not) about their early family environment, and found that the same family environment was experienced or perceived by the twins in quite different ways. These differences led later to homosexuality in one twin, but not in the other.

Strength of Influences At this point, some of you will be asking--what about the concordant identical twins who were both homosexual? Could their genes have "made them do it"?
No. It can be a strong influence for a few, but even for those few, it is never overwhelming. The record strengths for genetic influence on behaviors are 79% in a group of highly addicted women cocaine addicts (8) and about the same or somewhat higher, for ADHD (9). Because those figures are not 100%, even among addicts or those strongly pushed towards some other behavior, there is room for outside intervention and change. Hence even if homosexuality is as addictive as cocaine for a few individuals, their genes didn't "make them do it."
For perspective, it is valuable to compare genetic contributions to homosexuality with the question - is a girl genetically compelled to become pregnant at 15? Her genes might give her physical characteristics that make her attractive to boys - but whether she gets pregnant will depend greatly on whether her community is Amish or urban, conservative or liberal, whether they use contraceptives, and whether the parents are away for the evening.
So the influence of the genes is very indirect. We can see this by thinking further - if she was in solitary confinement all her life, would her genes make her become pregnant? Of course not! Some influence from the environment (in this case a boy) is essential! The effects of genes on behaviors are very indirect because genes make proteins, not preferences.
So the results of identical-twin studies are critical in understanding the biological influences on homosexuality. Only for physical traits like skin color are identical twins 100% concordant; otherwise they don't necessarily follow either their parents' genes...or their parents' admonitions! In this, homosexuality proves to be no different from such unrelated behaviors as violence, being extroverted, or getting divorced. All may be influenced by genes, but not overwhelmingly determined by them.

Future Biological Research Will continuing research eventually find some overwhelming biological influences to produce homosexuality, or find that added together, all the biological influences are overwhelming? No. The twin studies prove that future research will never discover any overwhelming biological factors which compel homosexuality.

Future Psychological Research The complementary finding is just as true. There are many influences from upbringing, and probably many we have not yet discovered--but however many we find, it will always remain true (because the twin studies tell us so) that family influences will never overwhelmingly compel children to be homosexual.
Childhood Gender non-conformity (essentially strong sissiness, rather than a diagnosis of GID) is the strongest single influence ever found associated with adult homosexuality, but even this factor is not overwhelmingly compelling. 75% of a sample of extremely "sissy" boys became homosexual when followed through to adulthood (10). But we must remember they were so sissy that parents were extremely concerned and referred them to the research clinic for help. Only a small percentage of sissy boys from the general population become homosexual as adults (11). This is even more true of other factors which have been researched and publicized in the media, and leads to a another important rule of thumb: "Only a small minority of those exposed to any predisposing factor become homosexual."
This may be a surprise to some clinicians, who may have found high percentages of sissiness, tomboyishness or same-sex parent deficits in their clients. But that is a clinical sample - out in the extra-clinical world, surveys show that only a small percentage of those with poor same-sex parent relationships become homosexual. For whatever reason those factors have often become extremely influential in such clients' lives and must be taken very seriously; but because they are minor factors in the whole population, clinicians must not force everyone into the same box, which may be uncomfortable, or simply not fit. They must be open to any unusual factor which has been important for the specific client.
The scientific truth is - our genes don't force us into anything. But we can support or suppress our genetic tendencies. We can foster them or foil them. If we reinforce our genetic tendencies thousands of times (even if only through homoerotic fantasy), is it surprising that it is hard to change? Similarly, we have a genetic tendency to eat, but it is possible to foster this tendency and overeat for the pleasure it brings. If we repeat that often enough, we will not only reinforce a genetic tendency to become overweight, but find that "starving" the habit takes a long time!
In summary:
1. No scientist believes genes by themselves infallibly make us behave in specified ways. Genes create a tendency, not a tyranny.
2. Identical twin studies show that neither genetic nor family factors are overwhelming.
3. Conclusion 2 will not be altered by any research in the future.
4. We can foster or foil genetic or family influences.
5. Change is possible.



Very intriguing, IMO.

[SoonerAtKU]

NARTH? I'd check your sources. You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that considers anything they do "scientific" in any sense.

[OU_Sooners75]

NARTH? I'd check your sources. You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that considers anything they do "scientific" in any sense.

Show me anything that successfully disputes that research.

[C&CDean]

Y'all are a bunch of fags.

[SoonerAtKU]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987702003638

It indicates a hypothesis that we might find, not a gene for "homosexuality" as it's own determinant, but instead a gene that allows for greater adaptive ability. Part of the premise is that being adaptable is a beneficial trait, and so would be selected for. In essence, it's meta-evolution designed to speed up the process without having to wait for reproduction. It also would go a long way towards explaining why homosexuality persists in relatively significant numbers despite being something that would, at first glance, appear to be counter to the purpose of propagating the species.

Essentially, it examines the idea that sexuality in the animal kingdom is rarely as static as we'd like to believe, even in humans. There are certainly some survival benefits to being adaptive overall, so why wouldn't that extrapolate to sexuality? So it posits that there may not be a "gay gene", but a strain of people who are more adaptive and likely to be flexible in their sexuality, whether that means gay, bisexual, experimentally gay, etc.

Even the article you posted indicated that the twins of gay men surveyed self-identified as gay at a rate up to TEN TIMES the normal occurrence rate as found outside of a twinned pair. The researcher seems to want to latch on to the fact that they're not ALL gay, when instead he should be fascinated by the fact that they are hugely more likely than a stranger to identify as gay. If he was at all interested in finding answers or asking meaningful questions, this would be the beginning of research, not the end result with a conclusion drawn that leads to Gay Reeducation Camps.

[SoonerAtKU]

Y'all are a bunch of fags.

Statistically speaking, Dean, there's a little bit in all of us.




You big hunk.

[OU_Sooners75]

What survival benefit does homosexuality provide?

Survival would include reproduction of a species, would it not?

How many men have given birth?

[olevetonahill]

Statistically speaking, Dean, there's a little bit in all of us.




You big hunk.
i aint never had even a Little bit of Dick in my ***.

[Soonerjeepman]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987702003638

It also would go a long way towards explaining why homosexuality persists in relatively significant numbers despite being something that would, at first glance, appear to be counter to the purpose of propagating the species.



last I heard it's about 10% of the population and even then how many of those are "lip stick" lesbians...doing it because it's the thing to do?

The human mind is a powerful thing...haven't you seen those ads?

Oh, I'm sure everyone knows, but I'm a NO.

[soonerhubs]

Did that study take into consideration both active and passive gene-environment interactions?

[soonerhubs]

Also the absolutist language in the report is disturbing. Genes forcing someone? Really? It's more about influence, not forcing someone. Also how did they control for social desirability in assessing sexuality?

[OU_Sooners75]

Maybe my comprehension is dusty. But the report I shared said that the study was done for a different purpose and then they asked their sexual orientation.

[FirstandGoal]

I shall answer your question with another question:


Is being born with ambiguous genitalia preordained? If so, how does that card get sorted?


I personally think the Lord, in his infinite mercy, knows the personal burdens we each have to carry, so I leave it to Him, while I work on my own self-improvements.

This is exactly where I fall on the issue.
I am a heterosexual woman and I am also a Christian. I also believe that most (and I'm not about to even pretend to assign a percentage by pulling a random number out of my ***) gays are born that way. You guys can quote scripture at me all day long and not only will it not change my mind on how I feel about homosexuality, it also won't change how I feel about God. Truth be told, there are a LOT of issues that me and God are working through at the moment and all I can say is that at the end of the day, I am the one who has to be at peace with my decisions. Homosexuality ain't one of them, so I really don't think about it. At. All.

I've known and interacted with too many gay people over the years to believe otherwise. I've seen the struggles and the heartache and the family rifts that coming out of the closet and living in your truth brings into the equation. It is messy and not fun for any of the parties involved, but I feel as if it must be done for a person to truly have a shot at happiness in their life. I have seen things in life that I guarantee no person would willingly go through if they truly had another choice.

Every day I thank God for not placing that burden upon me cause I have enough of my own **** I'm trying to deal with without that added complication.

I also feel as if it is truly a blessing to be able to love that special SO and be able to receive their love in return. The thought of not legally being able to some day marry or publicly claim that person--if I were so inclined-- would be hell on earth. I can only imagine the outrage I would feel if another party tried to tell me who I could and could not love and whether it were "natural" or not.

At the end of the day when I'm feeling out of sorts I can just add in "heterosexual" to my list of blessings in this life.

[StoopTroup]

I think everyone is born gay. I also think that the folks who are more normal, know better than to stick things up their a$$.

[SoonerAtKU]

What survival benefit does homosexuality provide?
From this thread above:

At least in humans, gayness can have a genetic benefit to the gay person in that it produces a differential survival and resulting reproductive success rate in nieces and nephews. This can be seen most starkly in the case of hunter/gatherer and herding societies where gayness is most strictly associated with the priestly classes (witch doctors, 'wise women', shamen and the like) and the tremendous benefits their collateral relations garnered by virtue of that association.


Survival would include reproduction of a species, would it not?
Includes but is not limited to, yes. There's also a stated benefit to not outgrowing your habitat. Let's look at something else that has limiters. Viruses that are human-specific generally take quite a while to kill an infected person. Many of the more virulent and fast-acting viruses are the cross-species ones that originate and normally live within other species. They don't have a reason to keep a human alive, so they replicate out of control to take over as much space in as fast a time as possible to give themselves a chance to get back to their natural host.

What you have in homosexuality is a natural population limiter that could keep us all from expanding so rapidly that we use up all of the resources available in any given habitat. Makes perfect sense to me that it would be built into a system. Sounds...Intelligently Designed, if you're bent that way. =)

[rock on sooner]

Hey Vet, you got it figgered yet?

[landrun]

[url]Even the article you posted indicated that the twins of gay men surveyed self-identified as gay at a rate up to TEN TIMES the normal occurrence rate as found outside of a twinned pair


That is solid evidence that it is environment - Not that one is born gay.

There have been multiple studies on twins. A quick look at Wikipedia can give you some others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

The point is, SCIENCE has proven that in spite of all the rhetoric to the contrary, a gay person is not a victim of their genes or of a god who made them that way.
Their sexual behavior is just like that of pedophiles etc... the only difference is our society (like many others throughout human history) is so sexually crazed that we're not only willing to accept it, but to encourage it.
Our generation considers ourselves too mature, smart and sophisticated of a society to admit we're just pervs... so we try to wrap it up in language that makes us appear enlightened and that anyone who disagrees is just a bigot - religous nut job - or both.

[olevetonahill]

Hey Vet, you got it figgered yet?

Hell no, Im more confused now than a 3 petered puppy.

Even tho Landrun makes some interesting points.

[OU_Sooners75]

From this thread above:

At least in humans, gayness can have a genetic benefit to the gay person in that it produces a differential survival and resulting reproductive success rate in nieces and nephews. This can be seen most starkly in the case of hunter/gatherer and herding societies where gayness is most strictly associated with the priestly classes (witch doctors, 'wise women', shamen and the like) and the tremendous benefits their collateral relations garnered by virtue of that association.


Includes but is not limited to, yes. There's also a stated benefit to not outgrowing your habitat. Let's look at something else that has limiters. Viruses that are human-specific generally take quite a while to kill an infected person. Many of the more virulent and fast-acting viruses are the cross-species ones that originate and normally live within other species. They don't have a reason to keep a human alive, so they replicate out of control to take over as much space in as fast a time as possible to give themselves a chance to get back to their natural host.

What you have in homosexuality is a natural population limiter that could keep us all from expanding so rapidly that we use up all of the resources available in any given habitat. Makes perfect sense to me that it would be built into a system. Sounds...Intelligently Designed, if you're bent that way. =)

Wouldnt all that suggest environment and not being born that way?

[OU_Sooners75]

This is exactly where I fall on the issue.
I am a heterosexual woman and I am also a Christian. I also believe that most (and I'm not about to even pretend to assign a percentage by pulling a random number out of my ***) gays are born that way. You guys can quote scripture at me all day long and not only will it not change my mind on how I feel about homosexuality, it also won't change how I feel about God. Truth be told, there are a LOT of issues that me and God are working through at the moment and all I can say is that at the end of the day, I am the one who has to be at peace with my decisions. Homosexuality ain't one of them, so I really don't think about it. At. All.

I've known and interacted with too many gay people over the years to believe otherwise. I've seen the struggles and the heartache and the family rifts that coming out of the closet and living in your truth brings into the equation. It is messy and not fun for any of the parties involved, but I feel as if it must be done for a person to truly have a shot at happiness in their life. I have seen things in life that I guarantee no person would willingly go through if they truly had another choice.

Every day I thank God for not placing that burden upon me cause I have enough of my own **** I'm trying to deal with without that added complication.

I also feel as if it is truly a blessing to be able to love that special SO and be able to receive their love in return. The thought of not legally being able to some day marry or publicly claim that person--if I were so inclined-- would be hell on earth. I can only imagine the outrage I would feel if another party tried to tell me who I could and could not love and whether it were "natural" or not.

At the end of the day when I'm feeling out of sorts I can just add in "heterosexual" to my list of blessings in this life.

You cannot consider yourself a Christian and yet disbelieve parts of the bible, sorry but you just cant.

You cannot choose to believe part of something and be a complete something.

[yermom]

You cannot consider yourself a Christian and yet disbelieve parts of the bible, sorry but you just cant.

You cannot choose to believe part of something and be a complete something.

that sounds pretty extremist to me

[OU_Sooners75]

that sounds pretty extremist to me

You can change my name all you want chubs....lol

But Christians believe that the Word of God (the Bible) is the Truth.

And therefore, you cannot select which part of scripture you believe to be true or false, because it does or doesn't fit into your personal opinion.

I guess you can do that, but you cannot call yourself a true Christian.

[rock on sooner]

Hell no, Im more confused now than a 3 petered puppy.

Even tho Landrun makes some interesting points.

Personally, I think most everyone has "overthought" the topic.
I figger that its a personal thing and everyone should just "butt
out", no pun intended.

[FirstandGoal]

You cannot consider yourself a Christian and yet disbelieve parts of the bible, sorry but you just cant.

You cannot choose to believe part of something and be a complete something.


I do not believe in absolutes. Sorry if that offends or threatens some people, but there it is. The world we live in has never been, nor will it ever be black and white.

Luckily for me, I don't need to prove to you or any other person whether or not I'm a "true" Christian. In fact, the whole concept of even having to prove that to anybody is so laughable it really doesn't even warrant a response.

Seriously, if we started "eliminating" people as "true Christians" based on every day thoughts and actions there would be none left, no? Did you ever stop to consider that this exact kind of narrow-mindedness prevents a lot of people from wanting to pursue a relationship with God?
One of the gay people in my life actually considers herself a Christian and she loves God and she goes to church.... AND.... she's a lesbian. I love and respect her just the way she is and I truly believe she was made that way.
Even if I didn't though, it's really not my place as a mere human to try to "fix" her or condemn her. I will leave that decision to a higher power.

[yermom]

You can change my name all you want chubs....lol

But Christians believe that the Word of God (the Bible) is the Truth.

And therefore, you cannot select which part of scripture you believe to be true or false, because it does or doesn't fit into your personal opinion.

I guess you can do that, but you cannot call yourself a true Christian.

there is a lot of interpretation that goes on.

as far as the New Testament goes, Paul really seemed to dislike the gays, Jesus didn't seem to say too much about them

he didn't much care for materialism though. that seemed pretty clear. that seems like the prevalence nowadays. i'm sure Jesus would drive a luxury SUV and have a large HDTV to watch FOX news if he was around today.

but that doesn't matter because this isn't the United States of Jesus. what the Bible says doesn't ****ing matter. are you going to preach Jesus to Jews too?

[ouwasp]

What a strange day we are living in. People that are otherwise decent, intelligent, patriotic, etc. are proclaiming homosexuality as something to be embraced, if not celebrated. This Bible verse comes to mind:

Isaiah 5:20...Woe to those that call evil good and good evil;
Who substitute light for darkness and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

That sums up our present quandary. This is the state of pop culture in our nation. Some undoubtedly feel our national motto should be changed to If It Feels Good, Do It

[SanJoaquinSooner]

That is solid evidence that it is environment - Not that one is born gay.

There have been multiple studies on twins. A quick look at Wikipedia can give you some others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

The point is, SCIENCE has proven that in spite of all the rhetoric to the contrary, a gay person is not a victim of their genes or of a god who made them that way.
Their sexual behavior is just like that of pedophiles etc... the only difference is our society (like many others throughout human history) is so sexually crazed that we're not only willing to accept it, but to encourage it.
Our generation considers ourselves too mature, smart and sophisticated of a society to admit we're just pervs... so we try to wrap it up in language that makes us appear enlightened and that anyone who disagrees is just a bigot - religous nut job - or both.

A condition may be congential without being due to genes.

[OU_Sooners75]

there is a lot of interpretation that goes on.

as far as the New Testament goes, Paul really seemed to dislike the gays, Jesus didn't seem to say too much about them

he didn't much care for materialism though. that seemed pretty clear. that seems like the prevalence nowadays. i'm sure Jesus would drive a luxury SUV and have a large HDTV to watch FOX news if he was around today.

but that doesn't matter because this isn't the United States of Jesus. what the Bible says doesn't ****ing matter. are you going to preach Jesus to Jews too?


Read the book of Matthew. Jesus explains his views on it to the pharisees quite bluntly. Marriage is between a man and woman is what he says.

[OU_Sooners75]

I do not believe in absolutes. Sorry if that offends or threatens some people, but there it is. The world we live in has never been, nor will it ever be black and white.

Luckily for me, I don't need to prove to you or any other person whether or not I'm a "true" Christian. In fact, the whole concept of even having to prove that to anybody is so laughable it really doesn't even warrant a response.

Seriously, if we started "eliminating" people as "true Christians" based on every day thoughts and actions there would be none left, no? Did you ever stop to consider that this exact kind of narrow-mindedness prevents a lot of people from wanting to pursue a relationship with God?
One of the gay people in my life actually considers herself a Christian and she loves God and she goes to church.... AND.... she's a lesbian. I love and respect her just the way she is and I truly believe she was made that way.
Even if I didn't though, it's really not my place as a mere human to try to "fix" her or condemn her. I will leave that decision to a higher power.

I dont mean to condemn or judge you on this, not my place or my intention.

But as a Christian, the Bible is the Truth. Not some of the Bible, but all of it.

[OU_Sooners75]

but that doesn't matter because this isn't the United States of Jesus. what the Bible says doesn't ****ing matter. are you going to preach Jesus to Jews too?

The Bible does matter. This nation was founded on the principles of Christianity like it or not. The founding fathers just had enough sense to not make it a Theocracy.

[jkjsooner]

A condition may be congential without being due to genes.

Here's a good read. For too long biologists treated environment and genetics as mutually exclusive. Now they know that environment alters how genes are expressed. Twins have the same genome but the role those genes play can differ quite a bit. This should be no surprise to anyone who's seen identical twins who don't seem that identical at all - in ways that are more fundamental than the traditional concept of environment can explain.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/twins/

also note the table that shows strong genetic correlation in many diseases where almost none are 100% shared by identical twins. This completely contradicts the assumption in the analysis linked above.

[soonerhubs]

Here's a good read. For too long biologists treated environment and genetics as mutually exclusive. Now they know that environment alters how genes are expressed. Twins have the same genome but the role those genes play can differ quite a bit. This should be no surprise to anyone who's seen identical twins who don't seem that identical at all - in ways that are more fundamental than the traditional concept of environment can explain.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/twins/

also note the table that shows strong genetic correlation in many diseases where almost none are 100% shared by identical twins. This completely contradicts the assumption in the analysis linked above.

Excellent post.

[yermom]

The Bible does matter. This nation was founded on the principles of Christianity like it or not. The founding fathers just had enough sense to not make it a Theocracy.

is the Bible your source for that too?

[OU_Sooners75]

is the Bible your source for that too?

No, just the principles you can read yourself in the constitution of the USA.

Read it....maybe then you will see that the principles you read there will line right up with what you read in the Bible.

That said, Ill say a prayer for you. :)

[OU_Sooners75]

Here's a good read. For too long biologists treated environment and genetics as mutually exclusive. Now they know that environment alters how genes are expressed. Twins have the same genome but the role those genes play can differ quite a bit. This should be no surprise to anyone who's seen identical twins who don't seem that identical at all - in ways that are more fundamental than the traditional concept of environment can explain.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/twins/

also note the table that shows strong genetic correlation in many diseases where almost none are 100% shared by identical twins. This completely contradicts the assumption in the analysis linked above.

Well as an Identical Twin myself, I can assure you that we share many of the same interests, ans traits. Not all...but many.

[soonerhubs]

A sample of two does not generalize.

[OU_Sooners75]

I know of quite a few identical twins. Heck my freshman class in college had 7 sets. Then I graduated HS with 3 other pairs.

We have 3 total sets in my family (including my brother and I).

And when reading that study, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Interesting study, but nothing to do with sexual orientation.

[yermom]

i think the gay bullies took 75's lunch money in school

[olevetonahill]

i think the gay bullies took 75's lunch money in school

:congratulatory:

[cleller]

Lawzy, they be some old testament kind of lifestyle choices and Revelation style persecution goin' on up in here. What religion and sexual orientation do you gotta be to get some equal protection and diversity acceptance?

[jkjsooner]

I know of quite a few identical twins. Heck my freshman class in college had 7 sets. Then I graduated HS with 3 other pairs.

We have 3 total sets in my family (including my brother and I).

And when reading that study, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Interesting study, but nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I didn't list that as proof that homosexuality has a genetic component. I listed it because it directly contradicts an assumption made in the article previously linked.


If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too.

I suppose he can assert this is true because he used the term "inescapably" but this is a straw man since nobody is making the inescapable claim. Nevertheless, he assumes if a person's genome influenced that person to be gay then his identical twin would be gay 100% of the time. A modern knowledge of genetics shows that this assumption is simply false. Even diseases that are very stongly genetic don't always show up 100% in identical twins. One clue is that they do show up in a lot larger percentage in identical twins than fraternal twins (who also share most of the same environmental experience as their twin). Fraternal twins happens to share a lot of the same genes (just as non twin brothers do) so you'd expect a non-environmental correlation there as well - just not as strong of one.


I was typing on an iPad earlier so I could really explain my thoughts in detail. The problem I have is that there's an assumption (especially when it relates to homosexuality) that environment means things like the following:


The person experienced sexual abuse.
The person had an overbearing mother.
Etc.


We always hear the comparison of one twin that was malnourished and another that had a healthy diet and how the latter grew larger, was more intelligent, etc. than the former. This doesn't really tell the entire environmental story. What gets lost (mostly because we didn't learn it in high school biology) is that subtle environmental factors can play a much more fundamental role (i.e. impact gene expression) than these more macroscopic environmental conditions.



Note: There are people on this board who know a lot more about this than I. I welcome their input and corrections if anything I said was misleading or wrong.

[Blue]

this is the crap you get fed so that you just toil away your life and make your masters rich. it's worked on the masses for a long time now.

and again with the trinity. some crazy doctrine that doesn't make any sense added to the KJV

Jesus sure spends a lot of time talking about how great his father is for them to be the same person.

and if life is just the brief moment to God, what is a little torture at the end of it?

The crap I got fed huh? You know nothing about me, yermom. You know nothing about my faith and education. I'll leave it at that. And if you don't want to look to God, you might look elsewhere to solve that "bitterness" problem you have.

[Blue]

And don't be scared of death. Its not torture, just a door.

[yermom]

The crap I got fed huh? You know nothing about me, yermom. You know nothing about my faith and education. I'll leave it at that. And if you don't want to look to God, you might look elsewhere to solve that "bitterness" problem you have.

i'd pretty much tell you the same.

i'm not bitter, i'm just not blinded by lies anymore

[OU_Sooners75]

i'd pretty much tell you the same.

i'm not bitter, i'm just not blinded by lies anymore


No, you're just lost, and that is okay. God still loves you and will be waiting for you when you are on your death bed wanting Him to forgive you of your sins, which He will.

The greatest cause to Atheism in this world, is Christianity. Its from those "Christians" that think the Word of God is filled with lies. You denounce God, even though you believe one exists.

[LittleElmSooner]

I thought this was interesting, so I'll throw my $.02 in Vet's hat.....

I consider myself a Christian and thus believe that the bible is true.... In that sense, I do believe that acting in a homosexual relationship is a sin. The bible says it, details it out, and give examples such as Sodom and Gomorrah.

BUT, the bible also says that sin is sin. Their sin of homosexual acts is no worse than a lustful thought that I have about a woman other than my wife, or a "little white lie" that I told, or taking the Lord's name in vain after a bad tee shot, or rolling homeless people for fun (just joking).

Sin is sin, and as a Christian, I take solace in the fact that we have his mercy (not getting what we deserve - death) and grace (getting what we don't deserve - eternal life). You do your thing and I'll do mine while trying to live the best I can.

Boomer

[SanJoaquinSooner]

And don't be scared of death. Its not torture, just a door.


Don't do it! It's a trick! It's an Oven door!