OU president David Boren discusses state of higher ed

[badger]

Interesting read by OU President David Boren (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/David_Boren_Public_higher_education_is_disappearin g/20130424_65_A15_CUTLIN541303) (link via Tulsa World)

A few excerpts:


In Oklahoma, the share of the cost of university budgets being paid by students and their families has doubled while the state's share has fallen rapidly. When I first came back to OU to be president, the state provided 32 percent of the university budget. Now the state provides 15 percent and the support is falling. The OU Medical School receives less than 7 percent of its budget from the state. State appropriations for higher education in Oklahoma are now $100 million lower than in 2008.


In addition, $200 million in uncontrollable cost increases like health insurance have also been absorbed by Oklahoma colleges in four years without help from the state. This comes at a time when a new report by Battelle for the State Chamber of Commerce demonstrates that the economy benefits $5 for every $1 invested in higher education.

So the questions I would like to pose to Obamafest are as follows:

1- Should state prioritize funding for higher education, or should the cost burden be placed more on students via taking out loans, etc.?

2- A large amount of criticism seems to focus on the size of university endowments, administration (and sports coach) salaries, and athletic department budgets. Is this criticism founded? Why or why not?

3- Universities have increased costs, just like the rest of us. What responsibility does the university have for keeping these costs down before resorting to increasing revenue (via tuition, begging states for more funding, etc).

I am sure that President Boren didn't plan for this opinion piece to run the same day OSU announced it raised a billion via fundraising efforts (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/OSU_announces_it_has_exceeded_1_billion_fundraisin g/20130424_330_osuan_57425). :stunned:

[rock on sooner]

Re the endowment/fundraising issues, I'm of the opinion that
all universities/colleges should be compelled to direct a substantial
percentage of the monies to scholarships/student grants to help
keep student costs down.

In Iowa, while not done in secret, it WAS very low key that a portion
of each tuition dollar went into a general student aid fund so that
students were essentially helping pay for other students. When that
came to light, huge uproar and the University (IA State) discontinued
the practise.

[pphilfran]

Boren has been on the job since 1994

In 1994 in state tuition and fees was $1901 while out of state was $5348

In 2010 in state was $6493 and out of state was $16474


The problem is not the lack of state funding...
http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/oklahoma/university-of-oklahoma-norman-campus/

[badger]

I followed pphil's link and...


Using these parameters, a post graduation salary of $84,454.23 is recommended to afford the $703.79 monthly payment in the example loan modeled above. This assumes a loan payback over 10 years. You can change the terms of the loan using the student loan calculator below.

I am reminded of FAFSA forms advising parents that the government will not provide any financial aid, as the family can afford Junior's college if their entire household lives on ramen and water for five years.

[Soonerjeepman]

I think the times for the MC sending their kids to big schools either in-state or out of state are in the past.

My daughter is going to juco here in town, with the idea of maybe finishing with a 4 yr school, KU closest, KSU or WSU (live with my parents). I didn't think I was MC til someone showed me a formula...guess I am. There is no way I could afford to help my kids very much, except staying at my house and providing food...sucks because I wish I could send them where they wanted to go.

Doesn't the athletic dept make enough to pay stoops and co? just a question.

[jkjsooner]

Boren has been on the job since 1994

In 1994 in state tuition and fees was $1901 while out of state was $5348

In 2010 in state was $6493 and out of state was $16474


The problem is not the lack of state funding...
http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/oklahoma/university-of-oklahoma-norman-campus/


There may be problems in state funding but you are right. The main problem (not just at OU but nationally) is the exploding tuition costs.

How can you justify a more than 240% increase in tuition costs over that time period when inflation has been about 54% over that period? (using an online inflation calculator for what it's worth)

[jkjsooner]

I think the times for the MC sending their kids to big schools either in-state or out of state are in the past.

My daughter is going to juco here in town, with the idea of maybe finishing with a 4 yr school, KU closest, KSU or WSU (live with my parents). I didn't think I was MC til someone showed me a formula...guess I am. There is no way I could afford to help my kids very much, except staying at my house and providing food...sucks because I wish I could send them where they wanted to go.

Doesn't the athletic dept make enough to pay stoops and co? just a question.

Let's hope that becomes the norm. A reduction in demand is the only thing that's going to hold back tuition costs.

[badger]

There may be problems in state funding but you are right. The main problem (not just at OU but nationally) is the exploding tuition costs.

How can you justify a more than 240% increase in tuition costs over that time period when inflation has been about 54% over that period? (using an online inflation calculator for what it's worth)

The Associated Press also talked about a study earlier today where young HS/college age teens don't understand economics. They don't understand how their credit score can impact them later, they don't understand the ways that debt repayment can be enforced, they don't understand that their post-college income will likely not give them the same lifestyle they had at their parents' house.

This is one of the reasons colleges can get away with increasing tuition so much, because college age kids don't understand that increasing costs waaaay past inflation is ridiculous

[OU68]

This will end the concept that junior has to have a college degree - we need plumbers, electricians, welders...

[pphilfran]

http://www.ou.edu/publicaffairs/oufacts.html
Annual operating budget 1.5 billion
Number of students 30000

So it is costing 50k a year per student...

[FaninAma]

http://www.ou.edu/publicaffairs/oufacts.html
Annual operating budget 1.5 billion
Number of students 30000

So it is costing 50k a year per student...
I assume that includes new construction which is funded with extensive donations and the medical school which recoups alot of their expenditures through reimbursement for services provided.

i think Boren's comments fail to address bigger issues. Resources are finite. Government can choose to fund more and more in direct entitlement payments to non-productive, irresponsible members of society or they can fund activities that have a chance of paying a dividend in the future......like education. In today's environment of escalating costs they will not be able to do both.

[cleller]

I wish Pickens would go ahead and lose his shirt so we can quit hearing about Aggie Lite.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Boren has been on the job since 1994

In 1994 in state tuition and fees was $1901 while out of state was $5348

In 2010 in state was $6493 and out of state was $16474


The problem is not the lack of state funding...
http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/oklahoma/university-of-oklahoma-norman-campus/

That's relatively inexpensive compared to other states.

[Sooner5030]

meh....I got my undergrad in the 90s and finished my grad degree in 12.

In my narrow minded opinion there are way too many inefficiencies that can be improved before we throw more resources at this problem.

i did learn a great deal in getting my undergrad in accounting.....but the knowledge or utility gained would not have changed if I had received those 36 accounting hours with a total of 60 credit hours rather than the 134 i had to take for the degree. Trust me...taking earthquakes & volcanoes to complete my 6 hours of science did not help me in any way. Same for the Music History and Beginning Piano (for non-music majors) i took as electives. I am glad I got a minor in econ though.

It's a scam.....just my opinion though.

[achiro]

Government backed student loans are a big part of the problem. A school is going to charge whatever a kid can borrow for tuition. That just starts the cycle of everything else becoming more expensive. 5030 is also on the right track, I'm all for a well rounded education but the idea that I had to take a beginning tennis and archery class as part of my college education is just stupid.

[jkjsooner]

meh....I got my undergrad in the 90s and finished my grad degree in 12.

In my narrow minded opinion there are way too many inefficiencies that can be improved before we throw more resources at this problem.

i did learn a great deal in getting my undergrad in accounting.....but the knowledge or utility gained would not have changed if I had received those 36 accounting hours with a total of 60 credit hours rather than the 134 i had to take for the degree. Trust me...taking earthquakes & volcanoes to complete my 6 hours of science did not help me in any way. Same for the Music History and Beginning Piano (for non-music majors) i took as electives. I am glad I got a minor in econ though.

It's a scam.....just my opinion though.

College is not a trade school nor should it be.

Given, I was an EE major and with all the math and science prerequisites there wasn't nearly as much fluff (humanities, etc.) as in other majors but I am glad I was forced to at least get a partially well rounded education. Many people would argue that it wasn't nearly well rounded enough.


One of the issues is that we can't blame OU or any one individual school. OU is still cheaper than most major state universities and they have to remain competitive for talent. Boren is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place on that one.

It's puzzling to me what has caused this tuition inflation. It's easy to point ot the loans and grants and say it's because we've been throwing so much money at it and I think there's a lot of truth to that but these programs were around for decades before the tuition costs exploded. I do think we're doing a major disservice to our youth driving up tuition costs and giving them enough easy money to put themselves in serious debt.


Maybe the solution would be to allow tuition loans to be forgiven in bankruptcy. Much of the lending would dry up and those who are providing the loans would take a much harder look at the student's ability to pay off the loan. For all I know that could be a terrible idea but I'm just throwing it out there...

[badger]

Maybe the solution would be to allow tuition loans to be forgiven in bankruptcy.

I don't think bankruptcy is the answer to tuition forgiveness, but I do agree that there needs to be a way to forgive tuition without needing to pay it back 100 percent in full. It's not just a dumb kid problem, because sometimes the dumb kid also saddles his family with the debt too as co-signors of the loans. Then, dumb kid's non-payment results in social security checks getting intercepted from grandpa, wage garnishment from mom and dad and dumb kid having no way out, because defaulting on student loans is one of the worst things financially a dumb kid can do (but they are still doing it en masse anyway).


Government can choose to fund more and more in direct entitlement payments to non-productive, irresponsible members of society or they can fund activities that have a chance of paying a dividend in the future......like education.
:)

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Colleges are beginning to realize they have a cost problem that will negatively affect them given that the number of college-aged students is flat with more competition from on-line universities, etc.

Not sure about OU but many colleges will put more resources in the STEM disciplines and fewer resources in the humanities. There just aren't that many students who want to major in the humanities. The irony is that when the number of humanities graduates shrink, their value in the business world increases. A philosophy major competing against 10 business majors for a position will, on average, do well.

[pphilfran]

College is not a trade school nor should it be.

Given, I was an EE major and with all the math and science prerequisites there wasn't nearly as much fluff (humanities, etc.) as in other majors but I am glad I was forced to at least get a partially well rounded education. Many people would argue that it wasn't nearly well rounded enough.


One of the issues is that we can't blame OU or any one individual school. OU is still cheaper than most major state universities and they have to remain competitive for talent. Boren is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place on that one.

It's puzzling to me what has caused this tuition inflation. It's easy to point ot the loans and grants and say it's because we've been throwing so much money at it and I think there's a lot of truth to that but these programs were around for decades before the tuition costs exploded. I do think we're doing a major disservice to our youth driving up tuition costs and giving them enough easy money to put themselves in serious debt.


Maybe the solution would be to allow tuition loans to be forgiven in bankruptcy. Much of the lending would dry up and those who are providing the loans would take a much harder look at the student's ability to pay off the loan. For all I know that could be a terrible idea but I'm just throwing it out there...

Forgiving loans is not the answer....

To find an answer we must first know the actual problem...then we have to find the root cause of the problem...

I suggest the actual problem is the initial high cost and the explosive growth of costs...OU has a budget of 1.5 billion for 30k students...on average, 50k per student, damn....

Root cause I am not so sure of...easy and "cheap" loans seem to be part of it...I would also expect administrative growth to be in there somewhere...

[olevetonahill]

If all of these little ****ers are so smart, why do they go so far into debt to get a worthless degree?

Get yer *** in the Military. serve for 4 years get out and get an education IF you need it after that.

[jkjsooner]

I suggest the actual problem is the initial high cost and the explosive growth of costs...OU has a budget of 1.5 billion for 30k students...on average, 50k per student, damn....

Root cause I am not so sure of...easy and "cheap" loans seem to be part of it...I would also expect administrative growth to be in there somewhere...

Well, I was trying to go after the root cause by making loans (possible only new ones) forgiven in bankruptcy. Remove the government protection and treat it as any loan. That would take a little money out of the system and make lenders think about who can pay it back. I wasn't suggesting doing so for the benefit of the borrower as much.

[SoonerAtKU]

That's exactly what they're saying, vet. It's NOT always a smart choice to go to a big 4-year school. It's changed so much since even when I started in '96. I can't imagine what it's going to be like when my daughter is 18 in 2026. With that said, my wife and I are already saving to help with that if that's the route she goes and grants/scholarships don't pan out.

The military is a fine choice, but admittedly a tougher sell when the country has been at war for a decade.

If you look deeper, the drive to push returning veterans into higher education after WWII and Korea is what started the devaluation of the college degree and the chugging of the federal aid money train. It's no wonder that universities that get most of their funds from the government would raise prices when able and worry less about the well-being of their enrolled and graduating students. It would take some serious cuts to student aid programs to reverse that slide, and it's hard to get elected on a platform of lowering educational goals.

The problem has become nigh unsolvable through the current setup, and I'd be in support of something that Ike proposed a while ago. Turn your big state schools into accrediting and certification houses for a large percentage of the degrees. You can easily get the course material and research work to teach yourself a basic business or marketing degree. Even if the schools sold the materials and provided a structured recommended curriculum, how much cheaper is that to operate than a fully functioning campus to shuffle in 20-plus thousand bodies every day?

You'd still have to have on-site instruction for some disciplines, but only for some courses. I don't need a business major to have to take an upper-division science elective any more, because I don't care as long as he passes cert at the end. Therefore, the actual science professors can teach actual science students. Engineers can teach and mentor engineers. You'd get an atmosphere more like a trade school, but if we can't all afford to be Ivy educated polymaths, then you do what you can.

The problem would be in the job market, and you'd have to have a sweeping change across all federally funded institutions to make it work, but if you started seeing prospective employees coming to you for jobs that had been self-starters who managed their own education and exceeded expectations on their cert exams, wouldn't that be more impressive than some layabout who had access to previous year exams from their fraternity collection and still skated by with a C average?

Ike for Secretary of Education 2016.

[pphilfran]

Well, I was trying to go after the root cause by making loans (possible only new ones) forgiven in bankruptcy. Remove the government protection and treat it as any loan. That would take a little money out of the system and make lenders think about who can pay it back. I wasn't suggesting doing so for the benefit of the borrower as much.

That makes sense...