minor curfews and responsibility

[Soonerjeepman]

ok, here in KC the mayor of KC Missouri is wanting to fund a bunch of programs during the summer to keep teenagers busy.

At this time there is a curfew of 9pm for 18 and under from May to August, I believe. They are considering expanding it to yr round.

The last 2 summers there are have been flash mobs and gun violence on the Plaza. The Plaza is a ritzy area, shops, fountains, horse drawn carriages, bars, etc. One of the "elephants" is the majority of folks there are white have money, the Plaza is located close to more of an urban area on on side...the majority of the kids involved are black. Some as young as 12/13.

Guess my GUT reaction is why is the city responsible for the keeping these kids busy? Why are the parents not held responsible in having something for their kids to do? I don't understand it's the tax payers responsibility to provide guidance. Yes, it's in the city's interest for fear the Plaza turning into another Westport (another bar/shop area that has been besieged by underage mobs that just hang out and cause trouble). They have started to try and clean it up but it's not the choice to go to.

If I was a tax payer in KCMO I'd be a bit upset, considering they have a ton of other issues...

Thoughts?

[Fraggle145]

Get off my lawn! Meh, I got nuthin'.

[Soonerjeepman]

lol..nursing a mcl....bored.

[SicEmBaylor]

ok, here in KC the mayor of KC Missouri is wanting to fund a bunch of programs during the summer to keep teenagers busy.

At this time there is a curfew of 9pm for 18 and under from May to August, I believe. They are considering expanding it to yr round.

The last 2 summers there are have been flash mobs and gun violence on the Plaza. The Plaza is a ritzy area, shops, fountains, horse drawn carriages, bars, etc. One of the "elephants" is the majority of folks there are white have money, the Plaza is located close to more of an urban area on on side...the majority of the kids involved are black. Some as young as 12/13.

Guess my GUT reaction is why is the city responsible for the keeping these kids busy? Why are the parents not held responsible in having something for their kids to do? I don't understand it's the tax payers responsibility to provide guidance. Yes, it's in the city's interest for fear the Plaza turning into another Westport (another bar/shop area that has been besieged by underage mobs that just hang out and cause trouble). They have started to try and clean it up but it's not the choice to go to.

If I was a tax payer in KCMO I'd be a bit upset, considering they have a ton of other issues...

Thoughts?
I agree.

[KantoSooner]

This is one of those situations where doctrinal purity comes up against managerial common sense. It should fall to the parents to control their offspring and the kids themselves should feel meaningful consequences for misbehavior. But, on the one hand, lots of parents are pretty shallow excuses for human beings. So, what do you do? Punish the parents? And leave the kids with even less supervision? Or, on the other hand, punish the kids? How? public whippings? Send them off to foster care or junvenile lock ups? Both cost money and are 'programs' that take resources away from other priorities.

Or do we perhaps hold our noses, break principle, and use some of the same money we appear doomed to spend on the little darllings and try to avoid the problem to start with. Going where government shouldn't have to go; and going there perhaps forever.

I feel for the mayor, and I also feel for the tax payers, but it's a proposal that is worth consideration.

[badger]

Guess my GUT reaction is why is the city responsible for the keeping these kids busy? Why are the parents not held responsible in having something for their kids to do?

In my neighborhood, there are pristine lawns, and there are unmowed, weed-filled lawns.

There are those who edge and make sure the sidewalk is clean, and there are those that let their trees drop prickly seeds on the sidewalk for me to try to avoid with the baby baj stroller (and worse, for elderly neigbors to try not to fall over).

You might say that it is those property owners' responsibilities for upkeep of their front lawns and their sidewalks. Fine... but then expect it to never look as good as your lawn or have a clean sidewalk. Sure, you might get the police involved and a citation might be issued ordering a grass cutting and a cleaner sidewalk, but the problem will never be solved entirely. Their front yard will continue to look like crap, even next to pristine sidewalks and lawns elsewhere in the neighborhood.

Such is the case with just about everything you ask "Isn't is someone else's responsibility?"

The only way that KC can ensure that this happens is if they do it themselves as a city, so that is what they're doing.

Eventually, I or someone else is going to get fed up with the prickly ball sidewalk and broom/rake them out of the sidewalk. Till then, avoid the spikey balls.

[KantoSooner]

Till then, avoid the spikey balls.

Words to live by.

[rock on sooner]

Here in Des Moines, IA, there are ordinances for snow removal, nuisance lawns, etc.
If the nuisance lawn is reported, the owner could wind up with up to a $300 bill for
mowing, etc. Snow removal is $65 minimum. I can see KCMO trying to get a handle
on the kids, too. That is a problem in a lot of cities....gangs, idle hands, macho stuff..

As an aside, the Plaza in KC is the oldest shopping center in the U.S. In the 70's I
was a buyer of electronics for Macy's (when they were there) and we always took
out of town guests to the Plaza area for happy hour....

[badger]

Tulsa has no snow ordinances, probably because the city itself doesn't have the means to remove heavy snow (they'll send fire trucks or something else heavy down side streets to create some tire tracks). It was common to see cars get stuck at intersections. I also didn't see any sign of some older residents trying to leave their homes for several days in some of our Snowmageddon times.

The reason I said that city ordinances will never make everything perfect is because ordinances only kick in when situations are outta-control bad. I think lawn grass has to be a foot tall before Tulsa will make you mow it or face a fine. It probably infuriates people that pay others $100+ to do weekly lawn care. (As a self-mower, I lol at anyone that spends money on lawn mowing/edging, unless its to keep a neighbor kid busy).

You could also take the law into your own hands, I guess. I heard one resident got so fed up with someone's backyard weeds one summer that they threw a match over the fence. Whooosh! Flamage everywhere!

...I would of course not encourage that sort of action.

[olevetonahill]

Jeep. Unfortunately anymore it DOES take a Village to raise a Kid.the dayum Parents aint doing it.
Most of em would rather take the welfare and trade it for **** to shoot up or snort.

[KantoSooner]

I think it always has, Vet. But people used to just do it and not assume it was their right or that the expressed will of the parents was to be overridden. And you just kind of knew where the lines were. For example, kids who were seriously misbehaving (let's use a fairly pedestrian example without a lot of political hot buttons - bunch of 13 year old boys corneriing and throwing rocks at a stray dog. Nasty behavior, but not necessarily criminal.) could be yelled at, quite vigorously, but you didn't hit any but your own.
It's the codification and formalization that I oppose, not the practical side of it. Hell, most of the time 'my village' 'parented' me, I deserved it and am a better person for it today.

[Soonerjeepman]

Don't disagree with anything posted...

It's a quandary I wouldn't want to be in charge of...

[badger]

bunch of 13 year old boys corneriing and throwing rocks at a stray dog. Nasty behavior, but not necessarily criminal.) could be yelled at, quite vigorously, but you didn't hit any but your own.

I agree that's a yelling situation. There were teachers that could cause even the brattiest of kids to recoil at just the sound of their elevated voice.

I've found that adults and kids alike only act bratty when not called on it. The ones that really want to be brats seem to recoil when the threat of consequences gets to them. (like when I pulled out a video camera at some Washington fans who were saying anti-Oklahoma things. Suddenly, the thought of being immortalized on Youtube made them go silent, hehe)

[Soonerjeepman]

lol...yes I can get a gym of 350 kids quiet by raising my hand and counting down from 5...or my glare..or voice.

23 yrs of practice

[KantoSooner]

It wouldn't have been a yelling sitch for my dad if he had caught me doing it, nor would it have been with my daughter. Nope, that would have earned some physical pain. But I recognize a line between what a parent can do with their own kids and what they can/should do with someone else's.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I think the actual point of bringing down the boom of curfews is missed here.

The reason is actually counter-intuitive but it holds true. The point of curfews is to SAVE the City money it would otherwise have to spend on a police presence in the area during the problem times, therefore actually saving taxpayer money from the investment of resources into the area for heightened security, crowd control, and processing.

Think of it this way. As a city planner, would you rather dedicate a number of officers to patrol an area during a certain timeframe where you can expect large crowds and Lord knows what number of misdemeanor violations, all followed by the eventual decline of the area and the loss of tax revenue from said area or would you rather directly address the problem element, the under-18 crowd, drop a curfew, and roll the occasional patrolman by the area, immediately questioning and assessing any and all present in violation, and sounding the alarm to any and all youths that the fuzz is watching and cracking down? It actually takes less officers to maintain, therefore saving your city money.

But the problem doesn't go away, it just moves. The city preserves an anchor commercial district, saves in public safety costs, but is still tasked with finding something to distract these youths from just causing trouble elsewhere. But with that, they can centralize the problem and eliminate impact to local business.

Make sense? It's actually a good thing.

[badger]

Makes sense --- as a fellow Tulsan, you might recall that the Jenks Riverwalk (dead when it's cold... and when businesses aren't good enough to stay in business, heh) has a curfew and reminders posted everywhere about said curfew. You can be there if you're with your parents regardless of the time, but otherwise, you gotta be out by a certain time.

[StoopTroup]

The Parents are in jail and they live with their uncle and aunt or their Grandma and Grandpa and they just don't have parents? Maybe sift through the Prison System and see if there are any Non-violent/Non-Child Molesting Parents that want another shot at taking care of their kids?

I just sometimes wonder how many people in this Country are incarcerated but really ready to turn over a new leaf and go back to taking care of their children and staying out of trouble.

[cleller]

The Tulsa curfew had a quick and positive effect on crime, disturbances, and violence involving teens.