20 Years Ago Today

[MR2-Sooner86]

May we never forget the innocent men, women and children who died from the abuse of the government's overuse of power in Waco, Texas. An event in which the blowback sadly affected us here in Oklahoma.


http://youtu.be/ebolPiRyhTo

[XingTheRubicon]

You mean the people that killed four federal agents and then burned themselves up?

[Sooner5030]

You mean the people that killed four federal agents and then burned themselves up?

I doubt the 21 children that died had anything to do with the four federal agents that were killed.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm not saying those Federal cops should have been shot and of course I'm not trying to justify that they were; however, the Fed's tactics that day are ultimately responsible for the deaths of those agents. The Feds have teh blood of their own on their hands and the blood of the children in the compound that they murdered and burned alive.

Waco was an epic cluster****.

[MR2-Sooner86]

You mean the people that killed four federal agents and then burned themselves up?

Proof they burned themselves? Good luck finding it because there is none. While we have the government lying in court about the grenades and explosives uses that day among many other things.

As for the four agents, they shouldn't go walking onto people's property and randomly opening fire on them. Just a thought.

[SicEmBaylor]

On an unrelated note...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj2bmQ4P4cM

[lexsooner]

Yeah, that's it, rationalize the actions of a cold psychopath who murdered 168 of our fellow Oklahomans. Plain sick. Where's your memorial to our fellow Oklahomans?

[SicEmBaylor]

Yeah, that's it, rationalize the actions of a cold psychopath who murdered 168 of our fellow Oklahomans. Plain sick. Where's your memorial to our fellow Oklahomans?

Uh, Koresh didn't kill 168 Oklahomans. This isn't about McVeigh.

[diverdog]

I'm not saying those Federal cops should have been shot and of course I'm not trying to justify that they were; however, the Fed's tactics that day are ultimately responsible for the deaths of those agents. The Feds have teh blood of their own on their hands and the blood of the children in the compound that they murdered and burned alive.

Waco was an epic cluster****.

ah no they could have given themselves up. Once the fired on and killed those agents they were toast. This all lies at the feet of DK.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Yeah, that's it, rationalize the actions of a cold psychopath who murdered 168 of our fellow Oklahomans. Plain sick. Where's your memorial to our fellow Oklahomans?

Figured this would happen.

Timothy McVeigh stated very clearly he picked April 19th because of Waco. He said he did it because of Waco, and to a lesser extend Ruby Ridge.

If Waco doesn't happen, he doesn't blow up the Murrah building. He thought the government overstepped its authority and committed crimes against the citizenry. Because of this he saw the bombing as "revenge" against the government. Do I agree with his view on the government? Somewhat but blowing up pencil pushers is the wrong way to go about things.

Just remember, one man's terrorist is another one's freedom fighter.

"rationalize the actions of a cold psychopath"

I can very easily apply that who anybody who defends the sniper who killed Vicki Weaver as "just doing their job." Or the folks who defended the FBI using tear gas, which by the way was illegal for the military to use in warfare, on little children.

Going off subject but 9/11 was blowback as well. Was it wrong for them to do what they do? Yes but it's foolish to think we can fly predator drones around over there bombing kids, and we do, and not think it's going to **** people off.

Same here. The government can't go around violating citizens constitutional rights and then act surprised when somebody gets pissed off enough to fight back.

[Sooner5030]

I child does not have the understanding to "give up" when they are holed up with their guardians.

You can talk shiat all you want about the adults in that compound. The law enforcement agencies had a duty to protect those children to the maximum extent practical. I just think they failed.

[MR2-Sooner86]

ah no they could have given themselves up. Once the fired on and killed those agents they were toast. This all lies at the feet of DK.

The Davidians offered the ATF to come inspect their weapons. The ATF declined instead going for the photo-op raid.

The ATF had video of the raid. They "lost" the part of them approaching which would've shown the Davidians fired first as they claimed

The white doors in the front, which the ATF said the Davidians fired through at them, had bullet holes in the right side. The holes would've shown if the fire was coming in or out of the building. The ATF and FBI claim they lost that door in the fire. Surprisingly the left side of the door was found but it didn't have bullet holes in it.

Where's the door? Where are the tapes?

Also, if the Davidians were crazy murderers they wouldn't have allowed the ATF to retreat and collect their wounded. They were sitting ducks and the only reason most of those agents are alive is because of the mercy the Davidians showed them.

[ouwasp]

So what should have been done with DK and his cult? Just allowed them to live happily ever after?

I feel bad for the kids that had parents that allowed them to be caught up in such a bizarre, dangerous situation. Had the Branch Davidians simply surrendered, there would have be countless lawyers willing to take up their strange case. Probably, hopefully, the killers would have been incarcerated.

And the rest could have lived happily ever after.

[SicEmBaylor]

So what should have been done with DK and his cult? Just allowed them to live happily ever after?

I feel bad for the kids that had parents that allowed them to be caught up in such a bizarre, dangerous situation. Had the Branch Davidians simply surrendered, there would have be countless lawyers willing to take up their strange case. Probably, hopefully, the killers would have been incarcerated.

And the rest could have lived happily ever after.

Uh, I think there is probably a middle ground between doing absolutely nothing and crashing onto their property like the Third Reich into Poland.

The ATF is the most dangerous and out of control law enforcement agency in the Federal government. It should be disbanded, their agents fired, and everyone employed by the agency should be run out of government service entirely and relegated to bagging groceries.

The ATF is about as subtle as a sledgehammer. The Feds would have been well served by being more judicious in their investigation. There were several options available that likely would not have escalated the situation to the degree that it was.

And once they had f'd up they doubled down on that f'k up instead of de-escalating the situation. Ultimately, this escalation by the Feds led to the deaths of innocent children and adults who never had their day in court and whose due process was violated and never given.

[MR2-Sooner86]

So what should have been done with DK and his cult? Just allowed them to live happily ever after?

Pretty much yeah.

DHS went up there before to investigate the children. They said nothing was going on.
The ATF had permission from them to go up there. They refused.
People in the community said, "well I don't agree with some of their beliefs but they're harming nobody."

The reason the ATF did this raid was to drum up some positive PR from the fallout they had received from Ruby Ridge. Also 60 Minutes had done a story about sexual abuse within the organization among other things.

They wanted to raid the Davidians compound the go "look we took guns from these religious nuts! Now give us money!"

[SicEmBaylor]

And, by the way, the FBI negotiators on the scene were extremely pissed about how everything went down. They were constantly undermined by other Federal agencies and sidelined by more militant elements that wanted to raid the place and end the siege.

[SicEmBaylor]

Pretty much yeah.

DHS went up there before to investigate the children. They said nothing was going on.
The ATF had permission from them to go up there. They refused.
People in the community said, "well I don't agree with some of their beliefs but they're harming nobody."

The reason the ATF did this raid was to drum up some positive PR from the fallout they had received from Ruby Ridge. Also 60 Minutes had done a story about sexual abuse within the organization among other things.

They wanted to raid the Davidians compound the go "look we took guns from these religious nuts! Now give us money!"

Exactly right. Don't discount the degree to which the Reno Justice Department wanted a big "win." This was also at a time when the Justice Department was seriously trying to crack down on militia groups, right-wing "extremist" organizations, and religious groups like the Branch Davidians.

Again, they are responsible for everything that happened.

[ouwasp]

good food for thought by MR2 and SicEm.....

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Exactly right. Don't discount the degree to which the Reno Justice Department wanted a big "win." This was also at a time when the Justice Department was seriously trying to crack down on militia groups, right-wing "extremist" organizations, and religious groups like the Branch Davidians.

Again, they are responsible for everything that happened.

By "responsible" do you mean, they acted unjustly against the Davidians which resulted in the irrational actions by Koresh including purposely starting the fires, or do you mean beyond acting unjustly, the gov't actually started the fires that killed the kids?

[SoonerorLater]

Waco was a tragedy that never needed to happen. Absolutely correct that the ATF went there with the attitude "we are going to show these right wing religious nut-jobs who's boss". Koresh by all accounts was a regular fixture around town and could have easily been picked up almost any time most likely without much resistance or fanfare. The ATF crated a power keg situation where none needed to exist.

[C&CDean]

Koresh/Waco is a giant pile of meh to me. If those parents wanted their kids to live they shouldn't have hooked up with a crazy Jesus wannabe.

What's funny about it all though is that Billy Blowjob Clinton was the prez and nobody has ever really busted his chops over Waco. If a conservative was the prez all hell would have busted loose. er.

[SicEmBaylor]

Koresh/Waco is a giant pile of meh to me. If those parents wanted their kids to live they shouldn't have hooked up with a crazy Jesus wannabe.

What's funny about it all though is that Billy Blowjob Clinton was the prez and nobody has ever really busted his chops over Waco. If a conservative was the prez all hell would have busted loose. er.

They did want their kids to live. They weren't a suicide cult, and they weren't looking for a confrontation with police.

[C&CDean]

No, they didn't. The day you go "I pledge allegiance to some crazy mother****er" is the day you wish death upon your children.

[TAFBSooner]

Koresh/Waco is a giant pile of meh to me. If those parents wanted their kids to live they shouldn't have hooked up with a crazy Jesus wannabe.

What's funny about it all though is that Billy Blowjob Clinton was the prez and nobody has ever really busted his chops over Waco. If a conservative was the prez all hell would have busted loose. er.

I guess you mean the Establishment media not busting his chops. All I heard for a while was about this being on B Clinton and Janet Reno. In fact, a couple of my conservative friends thought Ruby Ridge and Waco were both Clinton's doing. Ruby Ridge was in 1992, under Bush the Greater. Government tyranny over US citizens has been increasing at least since Bush 41.

"Conservative," "libertarian," and "liberal" apply to us outside the Beltway. The ideology of our ruling class is "authoritarian."

[C&CDean]

I guess you mean the Establishment media not busting his chops. All I heard for a while was about this being on B Clinton and Janet Reno. In fact, a couple of my conservative friends thought Ruby Ridge and Waco were both Clinton's doing. Ruby Ridge was in 1992, under Bush the Greater. Government tyranny over US citizens has been increasing at least since Bush 41.

"Conservative," "libertarian," and "liberal" apply to us outside the Beltway. The ideology of our ruling class is "authoritarian."

You live in a world that does not compute to normal folks I guess.

[TAFBSooner]

No, they didn't. The day you go "I pledge allegiance to some crazy mother****er" is the day you wish death upon your children.

We know that now. We've always had apocalyptic cults, but that sort of thing wasn't as well known before Waco.

Any time you hear the words "church" and "compound" used together, stay the hell away.

Remember that people don't know what's in the history books, before it happens. Nobody called WWI by that name until well into WWII.

[TAFBSooner]

You live in a world that does not compute to normal folks I guess.

I bow to your skill with the insults.

Now tell me where you think I'm wrong.

[radio]

Its all about gun control. Cause a problem, blame it on a fringe group(s) that "normal" people wont back.

[radio]

Yeah, that's it, rationalize the actions of a cold psychopath who murdered 168 of our fellow Oklahomans. Plain sick. Where's your memorial to our fellow Oklahomans?

Look up Terrance Yeakey.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Look up Terrance Yeakey.

Appears to be a mentally and emotionally troubled man whose family members are in denial.

[radio]

Appears to be a mentally and emotionally troubled man whose family members are in denial.

Same with Slick Willie Clinton.

When you were a kid did you play with fireworks? I sure as hell did. Black Cats were fun to light and let pop in my hand. Left a little burn marks but thats it....But my dumb *** (radio as a nickname tells something) knew not to close my hand.

Same with that building. Believe all that garbage... but physics has laws.

[bluedogok]

Remember that people don't know what's in the history books, before it happens. Nobody called WWI by that name until well into WWII.
I bought a book at a garage sale one time about WWI, it was titled The Great War and was published right after WWI.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Appears to be a mentally and emotionally troubled man whose family members are in denial.

Indeed.

[FaninAma]

ah no they could have given themselves up. Once the fired on and killed those agents they were toast. This all lies at the feet of DK.
The kids could give themselves up? Please explain, pray tell.

[FaninAma]

No, they didn't. The day you go "I pledge allegiance to some crazy mother****er" is the day you wish death upon your children.
The kids were hostages. It doesn't matter that their parents were dumbasses. They didn't deserve to die....especially like that