Landry got Complacent

[Sooner in Tampa]

So Says Gruden:


NFL head coach turned ESPN commentator Jon Gruden has carved out a niche for himself in the draft analysis business by taking a lot of time with a few select players to study them on film and get to know them personally, then produce 30-minute TV specials showing their one-on-one conversations. One of the more interesting conversations Gruden had came with former Oklahoma quarterback Landry Jones (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7446/landry-jones), who in Gruden’s opinion has the talent necessary to make it in the NFL — but who regressed over the course of his college career.

Gruden writes at ESPN.com (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2013/story/_/id/9163879/2013-nfl-draft-jon-gruden-breaks-landry-jones-potential) that Jones actually looked like a better pro prospect during his freshman and sophomore seasons than he did during his junior and senior seasons, and Gruden says he sees a player who lost some of his fire for playing the quarterback position.

“Jones was around so long and had seen so much as a college player that I think he got complacent,” Gruden writes. “I see a player who got bored. He has the raw skills to do so much that I think it actually affected him negatively over the last couple of seasons, when he didn’t reach the statistical heights of his incredible sophomore season.”
In Gruden’s opinion, Oklahoma coach Bob Stoops and his staff didn’t do a good enough job of running an offense that played to Jones’s strengths.

“I didn’t really like a lot of the plays he had to run at Oklahoma,” Gruden writes. “Last season, the Sooners consistently didn’t have any tight ends as options in the passing game, and didn’t do enough to give Jones the option to have easy outlets, which eliminated the opportunity to dump the ball off to tight ends or running backs. If I’m going to criticize anybody for that, I’m going to criticize Oklahoma. The Sooners often went with four-wideout formations, and I thought it stymied their QB. They lost balance and their play-action passing game. That put a lot on Jones, and it probably created a situation where he had to throw the ball too often.”

Early in his college career Jones was widely regarded as a future first-round pick, but he’s now viewed as more of a mid-round pick. Perhaps some NFL team can put him in the right system to prevent him from getting complacent and bored.

[Curly Bill]

I'm not much of a Gruden fan, but I don't disagree with anything I see there.

[EatLeadCommie]

"his incredible sophomore season." What? Gruden is just looking at stat sheets to think that. That year mostly consisted of LJ dumping off to Ryan Broyles and Broyles having some YAC for a big gainer.

And maybe we didn't utilize the TE more, but I don't think that's on Heupel anymore than it's on LJ for not throwing their way or us for not being very strong at TE since Gresham left.

[rock on sooner]

I'm certainly no QB guru but LJ's issues came to the fore when Broyles went down.
I think that had Ryan not gotten hurt that LJ would have continued with his security
blanket to the point that a lot of the boredom talk would remain whispers. The point
about TE play and lack of it is valid and a big question mark for this year, no matter who
the starting QB is.

[badger]

I was a first round quarterback till Ryan Broyles went down too :(:(:(:(

[LASooner]

Everyone is a better quarterback with Ryan Broyles to throw to.

[goingoneight]

I've been saying what Gruden said all throughout Landry's career. Sam had an awesome surrounding cast in 2007 and 2008. The three times we saw him in 2009, he wasn't exactly firing off 5 TD games. 2010, coincidentally, had a good surrounding cast for LJ and he looked at his best. This Nevada Pistol/Texas Tech offense makes you live and die by the quarterback. Neither Sam nor Landry had the mobility todo much more than they did-- being pocket passers. Also, coincidentally, when Sam went to the NFL, he experienced similar issues that LJ did here. Questionable, "soft" offensive schemes with bad or inconsistent at best surrounding casts. The result? Fans blaming the quarterback. I'm sorry, but the QB can only do so much. Eventually you have to step back and realize that Landry Jones essentially became similar to Tony Romo. The rest of the team can't just idle by. OU hasn't been good enough around it's QB the last four years where it matters. Hopefully Bedenbaugh and Boulware can help Heupel and Norvell straighten that out.
Don't even get us started on the defense and special teams letting us down in critical games in recent years.

[agoo758]

When we are running a pistol with a QB who can't run, you can't disagree with Gruden/

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

When we are running a pistol with a QB who WON'T run, you can't disagree with Gruden/FIFY.

[cleller]

Gruden makes some good points, but you guys have seized on the biggest (maybe only) weakness of his observation. Any evaluation of Landry without mentioning the impact of Broyles is incomplete.

[Since71ASooner4Life]

I dont know too many guys who wouldn't lose some of their fire when time after time they marched the team down the field, only to get pulled on 1st and goal to watch a predictable worn out Belldozer play get stuffed by every decent defense we ran it against so we could kick a field goal or turn the ball over on down. Many times I thought Landry showed a hell of a lot of maturity in not hanging his head or showing frustration when we repeatedly did this stupid move over and over. OK, I'm done bitching.

[radio]

We quit running the swing pass.

IMO that is what Gruden should have said about being able to dump the ball off short.

DM7 + Broyles = Space.

[MyT Oklahoma]

I thought he got complacent this past year along with all of the other problems that evryone else mentions.

However, it's over and done and I am looking forward to next fall. Let's play some football.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I thought he got complacent this past year along with all of the other problems that evryone else mentions.

However, it's over and done and I am looking forward to next fall. Let's play some football.all we gotta do to make me happy about football next yr is beat the domer.

[cleller]

all we gotta do to make me happy about football next yr is beat the domer.

That would buy lots of forgiveness, alright.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Heh. It is amazing how many of these guys go over his film and never mention that almost all of his problems occur either after the opponent scores or when he has a chance to blow it open.

We became unbalanced? Um yeah. That is what happens when the other team scores, their D gets jacked up and plays at a higher level than normal.

We don't utilize tight ends? No offense, but we stopped using them because Landry can't pick them out in the wash. Why put someone on the field that isn't a threat? He got so used to just zeroing in on Broyles that he only had views of the sidelines and the middle drags. He had huge blindspots everywhere else.

[OU_Sooners75]

"his incredible sophomore season." What? Gruden is just looking at stat sheets to think that. That year mostly consisted of LJ dumping off to Ryan Broyles and Broyles having some YAC for a big gainer.

And maybe we didn't utilize the TE more, but I don't think that's on Heupel anymore than it's on LJ for not throwing their way or us for not being very strong at TE since Gresham left.

LMFAO!!!

I am by no means a Gruden fan, in fact, I think he is a smug prick.

That said, Jones had a great sophomore year.

[OU_Sooners75]

Heh. It is amazing how many of these guys go over his film and never mention that almost all of his problems occur either after the opponent scores or when he has a chance to blow it open.

We became unbalanced? Um yeah. That is what happens when the other team scores, their D gets jacked up and plays at a higher level than normal.

We don't utilize tight ends? No offense, but we stopped using them because Landry can't pick them out in the wash. Why put someone on the field that isn't a threat? He got so used to just zeroing in on Broyles that he only had views of the sidelines and the middle drags. He had huge blindspots everywhere else.

More excuses....sorry, but that is exactly what your post is, nothing but excuses.

When Jones played in a scheme that utilized the TE and even RBs more for outlets, he did well. Lest we forget the OSU game his Sophomore year where he hit the TE late in the game.

That said, tight ends are insurance receivers, or should be. And OU since Wilson left hasn't utilized the TE nearly as much as they should have.

But let's lay it on the feet of Jones.

I wasn't the staunchest of Jones' supporters, heck, I am glad he is gone. But he was far from the problem! Maybe if we had a OC that wasn't learning on the job Jones' last two seasons, he would have been a lot better? But IYO its Landry's fault.

You're smarter than this!

[King Crimson]

i don't think landry ever got "complacent". i think the guy wanted to win Oklahoma football games more than anyone here.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

Heh. It is amazing how many of these guys go over his film and never mention that almost all of his problems occur either after the opponent scores or when he has a chance to blow it open.

We became unbalanced? Um yeah. That is what happens when the other team scores, their D gets jacked up and plays at a higher level than normal.

We don't utilize tight ends? No offense, but we stopped using them because Landry can't pick them out in the wash. Why put someone on the field that isn't a threat? He got so used to just zeroing in on Broyles that he only had views of the sidelines and the middle drags. He had huge blindspots everywhere else.

The line being blown up every other week didn't help either. When we did have TEs they were needed to stop the opposing rush. For the love of God, I hope we can shore up our O line. We had some incredible meat up front when Sammy was here. I hope we get back to that and ram the ball down some MFing throats from now on.

[budbarrybob]

Originally Posted by agoo758
When we are running a pistol with a QB who WON'T run, you can't disagree with Gruden/


FIFY.

Did you watch his 40 at the combine?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

atrophied leg muscles, from lack of use... Srsly, he can move pretty good, with those long strides, once he gets going. But, he refused to do that . Seemed to me he ran less and less as time went on.

[SoonerLB]

“I didn’t really like a lot of the plays he had to run at Oklahoma,” Gruden writes. “Last season, the Sooners consistently didn’t have any tight ends as options in the passing game, and didn’t do enough to give Jones the option to have easy outlets, which eliminated the opportunity to dump the ball off to tight ends or running backs. If I’m going to criticize anybody for that, I’m going to criticize Oklahoma."

BINGO! Complacent offense in general it seemed to me.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

More excuses....sorry, but that is exactly what your post is, nothing but excuses.

When Jones played in a scheme that utilized the TE and even RBs more for outlets, he did well. Lest we forget the OSU game his Sophomore year where he hit the TE late in the game.

That said, tight ends are insurance receivers, or should be. And OU since Wilson left hasn't utilized the TE nearly as much as they should have.

But let's lay it on the feet of Jones.

I wasn't the staunchest of Jones' supporters, heck, I am glad he is gone. But he was far from the problem! Maybe if we had a OC that wasn't learning on the job Jones' last two seasons, he would have been a lot better? But IYO its Landry's fault.

You're smarter than this!

You suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. You remember one event and you think it correlates to your argument. If you went back and checked the facts you'd see that they don't support your premise in the least.

A QB in OU's offense who likes to use the TE will end up around 70 receptions to the position (2001, 2007, 2008). One who doesn't use the TE will end up with around 25-30 (which includes Heupel in 1999, but not in 2000). Landry Jones at no point in his career targeted a TE more than 30 times. The game you gave as proof was almost 1/4 of Hanna's catches for the year.

That is the reason I talk about patterns. Landry had a very consistent pattern of non-scoring possessions after an opponent score (with over 1/2 being 3 and outs). He also had a less deterministic pattern of doing the same when we could put a game away. This isn't something that I can quantify, just one of those things when you are watching when you have the feeling "if we score here, this game is over". The first is statistically quantifiable, the second is my opinion about his lack of a killer instinct.

Now, why does this matter? It doesn't. It is my opinion (which no one cares about) about why I wouldn't draft him into the NFL. The guy he reminds me the most of is Ryan Leaf. If everything is going well (which most of the time it is) he is able to elevate his game along with it. But if there is adversity, it correspondingly lowers his game. This is huge liability in the NFL where 80% of the teams are just as good as you are.

[StoopTroup]

Good Luck JKM. He's the only true expert. :D

[cvsooner]

I thought the Gruden session was interesting for a couple of reasons. Gruden clearly was impressed with several things about Landry and his abilities, though he did pick on him a bit for making dumb plays. He chalked it up to excessive competitiveness..."sometimes the best play is to take the sack and punt it." "You know what your problem is? You don't want to waste a down." All in all, though, I think Gruden thought/thinks Landry has the ability to make it and did what he could to bolster his self-image and confidence. Pretty interesting.

[tulsaoilerfan]

I'm not much of a Gruden fan, but I don't disagree with anything I see there.

Funny how Gruden is saying some of the same things that alot of the fans that supposedly don't know anything said about Jones over his last 2 years.

[StoopTroup]

Or so some Fans think that's what he's saying.

In the end it's really all up to Landry and how his career in the NFL goes. Then you'll really know if Landry is just some over rated QB that needs a Superstar WR to make him look good. Also...I know Joe Montana loses a lot of sleep knowing how Jerry Rice made him look good all those years.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I thought the Gruden session was interesting for a couple of reasons. Gruden clearly was impressed with several things about Landry and his abilities, though he did pick on him a bit for making dumb plays. He chalked it up to excessive competitiveness..."sometimes the best play is to take the sack and punt it." "You know what your problem is? You don't want to waste a down." All in all, though, I think Gruden thought/thinks Landry has the ability to make it and did what he could to bolster his self-image and confidence. Pretty interesting.

No offense, but this is a pro coach talking where 80% of the games come down to a last second field goal. Our defense hasn't been good enough the last 2 years to just give up on possessions against anyone.

[cvsooner]

Good point. Our best defense was to keep our offense on the field and score points.

[hvhurricane]

If some of you don't agree with Gruden that the offense needed to evolve over LJ's career, then you just don't get it. JH did a horrible job in the last two years of putting together a gameplan that fits LJ's talents. He is just in way over his head.

[JLEW1818]

When we are running a pistol with a QB who can't run, you can't disagree with Gruden/

Thank you. The pistol is so awful and embarrassing.

[MyT Oklahoma]

all we gotta do to make me happy about football next yr is beat the domer.

That would be a start.

Plus hang 50 on UT. Beat down KSU. Beat down OSU. Win a bowl game.

[StoopTroup]

If some of you don't agree with Gruden that the offense needed to evolve over LJ's career, then you just don't get it. JH did a horrible job in the last two years of putting together a gameplan that fits LJ's talents. He is just in way over his head.

Funny how Josh is in over his head but Jay Norvell gets zero responsibility for recruiting guys that think they can come here for two years and go Pro because of us being QBU.

Honestly....get rid of JN and if things don't get better then you can bag on Josh.

[PrideMom]

How many records does a player have to break to become recognized as a great player? Landry accomplished more than any OU quarterback, yet he still gets bashed. No he didn't win the National Championship, but neither did two Heisman trophy winners before him, but Landry did beat Texas 3 times, and kept OU in games most would have given up on. His poise with two minutes left in a game was AMAZING!

[sooneron]

Beating texas is great, but those were some of the worst texas teams since Eisenhower.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Beating texas is great, but those were some of the worst texas teams since Eisenhower.

They were not worse than the Gardere teams (well 3 of the Gardere teams)

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

If some of you don't agree with Gruden that the offense needed to evolve over LJ's career, then you just don't get it. JH did a horrible job in the last two years of putting together a gameplan that fits LJ's talents. He is just in way over his head.

And I don't think you realize that is something that is done in the PRO game (where you can lock a QB down for a decade) not the college game (where the maximum you will have a QB is 4 years). In college you have a system and you recruit to that system. The system evolves based on how opponents deal with it, not personnel.

For whatever reason, people forget that Josh INHERITED Landry as an OC. He obviously wants to run an offense that has a QB who can run and he has recruited the crap out of QBs who fit that system (since everyone BEHIND Landry fits it). Yes, he may have limited Landry a little by having him 2 yards closer to the center, but I don't think it was that measureable of an amount. But by having everyone else practice in his system he isn't introducing anything new this year when the QB is a closer fit to it.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

How many records does a player have to break to become recognized as a great player? Landry accomplished more than any OU quarterback, yet he still gets bashed. No he didn't win the National Championship, but neither did two Heisman trophy winners before him, but Landry did beat Texas 3 times, and kept OU in games most would have given up on. His poise with two minutes left in a game was AMAZING!

He also has this on his resume whether it was his fault or not, it's on his resume:

- Had more career losses than any other starting Sooner QB in history
- Had more career interceptions than any other starting Sooner QB in history
- Part of team that lost to Baylor for the first time in history
- Part of team that lost two home games after only losing at home twice in the previous decade
- Part of team that got absolutely embarrassed by Oklahoma St.

And his leading Oklahoma to 3 wins over Texas wasn't that challenging since these Texas teams lost to a few other teams each of those seasons as well. Lots of starting QBs in Sooner history would have that number of wins if not more if they basically started the entire 4 years. Landry's great performance on that final possession against West Virginia? Funny how people forget that tough catch that Kenny Stills made. Funny how people forget that FOURTY SIX YARD PUNT RETURN that Brennan Clay had to get Landry to mid-field for that possession.

And Blake Bell's 50 yard TD run against Baylor was the key play in that game given the score and time remaining in that game. And Jalen Saunders punt return for 81 yards for a TD in the OSU game was the key play in that game until the end of regulation when the Sooners put in Blake bell for the 4th and goal conversion that fortunately sent the game into OT.

Landry was a great passer, but he was NOT a great QB and had his butt saved a lot by the play-makers around him. And we saw what happened when he didn't have any play-makers after Broyles went down in 2011, he completely folded instead of trying to elevate his game and find a new go to receiver and finding other ways to get receivers involved. Without a wide open Broyles, Landry was completely lost and didn't know how to throw to receivers that weren't always going to be open in the way that Broyles was.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

He also has this on his resume whether it was his fault or not, it's on his resume:

- Had more career losses than any other starting Sooner QB in history
- Had more career interceptions than any other starting Sooner QB in history
- Part of team that lost to Baylor for the first time in history
- Part of team that lost two home games after only losing at home twice in the previous decade
- Part of team that got absolutely embarrassed by Oklahoma St.

And his leading Oklahoma to 3 wins over Texas wasn't that challenging since these Texas teams lost to a few other teams each of those seasons as well. Lots of starting QBs in Sooner history would have that number of wins if not more if they basically started the entire 4 years. Landry's great performance on that final possession against West Virginia? Funny how people forget that tough catch that Kenny Stills made. Funny how people forget that FOURTY SIX YARD PUNT RETURN that Brennan Clay had to get Landry to mid-field for that possession.

And Blake Bell's 50 yard TD run against Baylor was the key play in that game given the score and time remaining in that game. And Jalen Saunders punt return for 81 yards for a TD in the OSU game was the key play in that game until the end of regulation when the Sooners put in Blake bell for the 4th and goal conversion that fortunately sent the game into OT.

Landry was a great passer, but he was NOT a great QB and had his butt saved a lot by the play-makers around him. And we saw what happened when he didn't have any play-makers after Broyles went down in 2011, he completely folded instead of trying to elevate his game and find a new go to receiver and finding other ways to get receivers involved. Without a wide open Broyles, Landry was completely lost and didn't know how to throw to receivers that weren't always going to be open in the way that Broyles was.

You forgot some things:
1. You left out that 3 of his defenses were in the top 10 worst in a half century. Those 3 were the WORST that I have seen in 30 years even Blake had better.
2. You give Stills credit for one catch, but you never mention all of the balls that he dropped over the season that would have made Landry SIGNIFICANTLY better statistically. Stills dropped 2 or 3 EASY TD grabs this year (one of which became a pick on the next down).
3. Special Teams/Defensive Plays are supposed to change momentum. You might recall in 2000, that the key plays in that year were a long KO return by Thatcher against KState, a Pick-6 by Marshall against aTm, a couple of defensed passes by Strait against Pokey State and a fumble recovery by TGRW against FSU.
4. "Without Broyles" - To me this is the key phrase - Heupel was always known for spreading the ball around. Yet for some reason he never got through to Landry on this.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

You forgot some things:


UTEP blocks punt and takes an early 7-0 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Texas Tech closes the score to 14-13
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma only up 7-6 over Iowa St. late in the 2nd quarter
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma only up 17-10 midway through the 2nd quarter against West Virginia
Kenny Stills TD


West Virginia closes score to 31-24
Kenny Stills TD


West Virginia takes 43-38 lead
Kenny Stills TD


West Virginia takes 49-44 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma St. takes 24-17 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Texas Tech takes early 7-0 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Texas Tech takes 31-7 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma only up 6-3 over Texas
Kenny Stills TD


Texas has 100 yard kick-off return to keep the score mathematically manageable at 27-10 in the 2nd quarter
Kenny Stills TD


Florida St. ties the ball game at 13-13
Kenny Stills TD

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

wtf does that have to do with anything? QBs have to throw the ball to someone. I could list every one of Mark Clayton's 31 TDs as well. He was 10x the receiver that Stills was even though he was far less physically talented.

Seriously take a look at the scores that you are listing -> 7, 13, 6, 10, 24, 43, 49, 24, 7, 31, 3, 10, 13. There are a lot of AA QBs who wouldn't have been physically able to overcome some of those scores (could you imagine Geno Torreta doing it?).

[thecrimsoncrusader]

wtf does that have to do with anything? QBs have to throw the ball to someone. I could list every one of Mark Clayton's 31 TDs as well. He was 10x the receiver that Stills was even though he was far less physically talented.

Seriously take a look at the scores that you are listing -> 7, 13, 6, 10, 24, 43, 49, 24, 7, 31, 3, 10, 13. There are a lot of AA QBs who wouldn't have been physically able to overcome some of those scores (could you imagine Geno Torreta doing it?).

I can see you are getting upset about being wrong. You were bagging on Kenny Stills, but it clearly showed you have a bad memory. Stills saved Landry's backside a number of times on great catches on bad throws. You're wrong on this one and you're going to be wrong about the Sooner defensive line as well. There are lots of AA QBs that would have been physically able to overcome those scores given OU's great level of pass protection and the talented receiving corps that OU typically fields.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I can see you are getting upset about being wrong. You were bagging on Kenny Stills, but it clearly showed you have a bad memory. Stills saved Landry's backside a number of times on great catches on bad throws. You're wrong on this one and you're going to be wrong about the Sooner defensive line as well. There are lots of AA QBs that would have been physically able to overcome those scores given OU's great level of pass protection and the talented receiving corps that OU typically fields.

I'm not upset about being wrong. You just randomly throw out data and think that the world can infer from said randomness that "Stills saved Landry's backside a number of times on great catches on bad throws". That is even more annoying than 75 pulling unsupported "facts" out of his rear. Now this is a statement that can be debated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcQveZWSHF4
Season Highlight Video - This should have all of those amazing "bail out" catches on them

2:30 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones between corner and safety
2:56 - Stills TD - Perfect strike on a perfect seal from Stills
4:52 - Stills TD - Juggling catch after getting hit in the hands
5:38 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones
6:27 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones leading him away from the defender. Seriously this one was ALL on Jones he threw it from the opposite side of the field

So only 5 were so amazing that they made the end of season highlight film and only 1 of them could be considered a bailout by Stills and even on it the ball hit him in the hands. Strangely enough, had your argument been about Justin Brown you'd have some merits. He made some TOUGH catches last year.

As for the DL, yep we'll see. I have to tell you that the spring game performance was less than stellar. But they still have 4 months to prove you right.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

I'm not upset about being wrong. You just randomly throw out data and think that the world can infer from said randomness that "Stills saved Landry's backside a number of times on great catches on bad throws". That is even more annoying than 75 pulling unsupported "facts" out of his rear. Now this is a statement that can be debated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcQveZWSHF4
Season Highlight Video - This should have all of those amazing "bail out" catches on them

2:30 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones between corner and safety
2:56 - Stills TD - Perfect strike on a perfect seal from Stills
4:52 - Stills TD - Juggling catch after getting hit in the hands
5:38 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones
6:27 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones leading him away from the defender. Seriously this one was ALL on Jones he threw it from the opposite side of the field

So only 5 were so amazing that they made the end of season highlight film and only 1 of them could be considered a bailout by Stills and even on it the ball hit him in the hands. Strangely enough, had your argument been about Justin Brown you'd have some merits. He made some TOUGH catches last year.

As for the DL, yep we'll see. I have to tell you that the spring game performance was less than stellar. But they still have 4 months to prove you right.


You talk a lot without ever actually saying anything. You point to a "highlight video" and list a mere 5 examples from a single season in what was a 3 year career. Brilliant!

[Curly Bill]

If I say that neither Stills or LJ are destined for either the college or NFL Hall of Fame does that make me more right than both of you?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

If I say that neither Stills or LJ are destined for either the college or NFL Hall of Fame does that make me more right than both of you?

Landry has a shot at the college HoF, otherwise Yes you are correct.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

You talk a lot without ever actually saying anything. You point to a "highlight video" and list a mere 5 examples from a single season in what was a 3 year career. Brilliant!

You made this point - "Stills saved Landry's backside a number of times on great catches on bad throws" - the only throws you gave as proof were the TD passes. I went through and found the only evidence of said throws and proved that the throws were on the money. Unfortunately, no one keeps "highlight" reels of blatant drops for TDs or I would have illustrated that in most cases the positives and negatives of each player ended up being a wash.

And that is the biggest issue here. If you want to only highlight Landry's Negative traits well then go for it. But to go even further and attempt to discount his positive traits by crediting them to another player is asinine. Stills had a Texas-like career at OU. He played well as a freshman and then coasted the rest of the way on talent alone.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

And I want to point out one other thing here.

In 2007, we lost to Colorado. On 3rd down, Sam threw an INT when he was targeting the TE. The reason for the INT was that Iglesias dogged his route (barely even left the LOS) and his man just left him and jumped the route on the TE who he wasn't even responsible for. On this board, there were people (75 chief among them) that said that you couldn't expect a player to give a 100% effort on every play. I personally thought it was crazy as a fan to think it was okay to lose a shot at a title game because one of our players was too lazy to run a route. This board was split 50/50 on the issue.

Now Stills was guilty of this time and time again this season. You obviously have given him a pass on lazy routes, lazy blocking. So I ask, why can't you give the same pass to Landry?

[Curly Bill]

And I want to point out one other thing here.

In 2007, we lost to Colorado. On 3rd down, Sam threw an INT when he was targeting the TE. The reason for the INT was that Iglesias dogged his route (barely even left the LOS) and his man just left him and jumped the route on the TE who he wasn't even responsible for. On this board, there were people (75 chief among them) that said that you couldn't expect a player to give a 100% effort on every play. I personally thought it was crazy as a fan to think it was okay to lose a shot at a title game because one of our players was too lazy to run a route. This board was split 50/50 on the issue.

Now Stills was guilty of this time and time again this season. You obviously have given him a pass on lazy routes, lazy blocking. So I ask, why can't you give the same pass to Landry?

Most fans aren't gonna see the WR dogging it on his route, if they did it still wouldn't register with them that something is really wrong with it. Even the most casual of fans though will see the QB's errors, I mean he is pretty much in the center of the action, and again even the most casual of fans can recognize when the QB has made a bad throw - missed a wide open receiver or thrown an INT for example.

In other words: It's just easier to pick on the QB. I admit to being guilty of that myself.

[SoonerStormchaser]

**** like this is why I have stopped watching OU football...cause people lose their gawddamn minds over a menial GAME!

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Most fans aren't gonna see the WR dogging it on his route, if they did it still wouldn't register with them that something is really wrong with it. Even the most casual of fans though will see the QB's errors, I mean he is pretty much in the center of the action, and again even the most casual of fans can recognize when the QB has made a bad throw - missed a wide open receiver or thrown an INT for example.

In other words: It's just easier to pick on the QB. I admit to being guilty of that myself.

Yes, but this doesn't explain why 2 QBs in the last decade have gathered an inappropriate amount of ire -> Landry and Nate Hybl. Both of these guys were above average QBs, but they are treated on this board like they were Eric Moore or Fuente.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

**** like this is why I have stopped watching OU football...cause people lose their gawddamn minds over a menial GAME!

People go nuts over a lot of stupid crap (look at the politics forum if you don't believe me).

[C&CDean]

You wanna know what's really stupid? Arguing with jkm over x's and o's. But then again, this crimsoncrusader tool hasn't proven to be anything but a dildo on this board. I think I recall him being all "just wait till Mike Stoops shows up. I shall be vindicated..." Meh.

[Breadburner]

Qb's....Get to much praise and to much grief.....

[thecrimsoncrusader]

And I want to point out one other thing here.

In 2007, we lost to Colorado. On 3rd down, Sam threw an INT when he was targeting the TE. The reason for the INT was that Iglesias dogged his route (barely even left the LOS) and his man just left him and jumped the route on the TE who he wasn't even responsible for. On this board, there were people (75 chief among them) that said that you couldn't expect a player to give a 100% effort on every play. I personally thought it was crazy as a fan to think it was okay to lose a shot at a title game because one of our players was too lazy to run a route. This board was split 50/50 on the issue.

Now Stills was guilty of this time and time again this season. You obviously have given him a pass on lazy routes, lazy blocking. So I ask, why can't you give the same pass to Landry?


That was just a strange game in general. OU got out to a 24-7 lead and really started playing complacent as a team despite a 17 point lead being nothing in college football. That game was lost on 3 Sooner turnovers and Wilson continuing to have Bradford throw deep on a day where Bradford was clearly off. That was one of those games where Alan Patrick really should have gotten the ball about 30 times instead of 18 times. Strangely enough, it was similar to the 2003 game in Boulder. OU had Colorado completely outclassed talent wise and OU had a 27-7 lead going into the 3rd quarter and the next thing you know, it's 27-20 and OU was hanging on for dear life. Fortunately, Oklahoma won that game.

I don't give Landry a pass because he was afraid to take a hit (great pass blocking and that demeanor is why he never got injured, nothing else) and wasted four years of Oklahoma football. Landry was a great passer, but not a great QB and he sure as hell wasn't leader. OU won't be fielding a better passer this season, but they will be fielding a better QB. One that will actually take one for the team if necessary.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

You wanna know what's really stupid? Arguing with jkm over x's and o's. But then again, this crimsoncrusader tool hasn't proven to be anything but a dildo on this board. I think I recall him being all "just wait till Mike Stoops shows up. I shall be vindicated..." Meh.

52% completion percentage allowed and 202 passing yards per game allowed. The passing defense was fixed with scheme and the rushing defense will be fixed with McGhee, Walker and McFarland being gone and moving to a one-gap. I'm the guy that knows what he is talking about, jkm is the other guy. He needs to stick to RPGs. I am going to be right about OU's QB next season, I am going to be right about OU's defense next season and I am going to be right about OU's defensive line.

[Curly Bill]

Yes, but this doesn't explain why 2 QBs in the last decade have gathered an inappropriate amount of ire -> Landry and Nate Hybl. Both of these guys were above average QBs, but they are treated on this board like they were Eric Moore or Fuente.

Hybl I'm not sure why that's the case. Jones IMO is because he just seemed to have that "something" missing, call it heart, call it fire, call it what you will, but here was a dude with a ton of talent that just didn't have that something special that would have turned that ton of talent into a special QB.

[MichiganSooner]

You forgot some things:


UTEP blocks punt and takes an early 7-0 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Texas Tech closes the score to 14-13
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma only up 7-6 over Iowa St. late in the 2nd quarter
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma only up 17-10 midway through the 2nd quarter against West Virginia
Kenny Stills TD


West Virginia closes score to 31-24
Kenny Stills TD


West Virginia takes 43-38 lead
Kenny Stills TD


West Virginia takes 49-44 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma St. takes 24-17 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Texas Tech takes early 7-0 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Texas Tech takes 31-7 lead
Kenny Stills TD


Oklahoma only up 6-3 over Texas
Kenny Stills TD


Texas has 100 yard kick-off return to keep the score mathematically manageable at 27-10 in the 2nd quarter
Kenny Stills TD


Florida St. ties the ball game at 13-13
Kenny Stills TD


And who threw the passes listed above to Kenny Stills? While we are at it, who blocked the defense to give the thrower time? Who ran their routes correctly, besides Stills, that allowed the coverage on Stills to be such that he had a chance to catch the ball? It is a team game. You seem to be condeming Landry because he did not go on the field all by himself and get the ball into the endzone by himself.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

52% completion percentage allowed and 202 passing yards per game allowed. The passing defense was fixed with scheme and the rushing defense will be fixed with McGhee, Walker and McFarland being gone and moving to a one-gap. I'm the guy that knows what he is talking about, jkm is the other guy. He needs to stick to RPGs. I am going to be right about OU's QB next season, I am going to be right about OU's defense next season and I am going to be right about OU's defensive line.

As I have pointed out multiple times, the passing defense was "fixed" at the expense of the run defense. The numbers for the 2011 and 2012 defenses are almost identical as a whole. The DTs are only part of the problem, the bigger more difficult problem to fix is the mentality of our linebacker play.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I don't give Landry a pass because he was afraid to take a hit (great pass blocking and that demeanor is why he never got injured, nothing else) and wasted four years of Oklahoma football. Landry was a great passer, but not a great QB and he sure as hell wasn't leader. OU won't be fielding a better passer this season, but they will be fielding a better QB. One that will actually take one for the team if necessary.

heh, we had 1 season in the last 4 where we had a good enough defense to win a title. That year was 2009 and Landry wasn't even supposed to start.

Total Defense - 8, 53, 55, 64

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Hybl I'm not sure why that's the case. Jones IMO is because he just seemed to have that "something" missing, call it heart, call it fire, call it what you will, but here was a dude with a ton of talent that just didn't have that something special that would have turned that ton of talent into a special QB.

Which is fair enough. I personally think that all of these assigned attributes are because of his failure to convert after an opponent score. It just gives you the feeling as a fan that you aren't going to win. The problem I struggle with is whether he was the victim of a perfect storm. He had one notable weakness which wouldn't even be noticeable with a great defense and he was handed 3 of the worst OU defenses in history (while having a great one as an unprepared freshman).

[Fraggle145]

and wasted four years of Oklahoma football.

This is why you suck as a fan.

I've never been the biggest Landry fan. But this is just retarded. If you want to blame someone for wasting 3 years of OU football blame Vulnerables defenses and the lack of recruiting anyone capable of blocking effectively for a 1-2 yard run in the red zone.

[Seamus]

This is why you suck as a fan.

I've never been the biggest Landry fan. But this is just retarded. If you want to blame someone for wasting 3 years of OU football blame Vulnerables defenses and the lack of recruiting anyone capable of blocking effectively for a 1-2 yard run in the red zone.

This.^^^ +1

[SoonerBBall]

I'm the guy that knows what he is talking about, jkm is the other guy. He needs to stick to RPGs.

You can act like a pathetic, blow-hard all you want but until you start taking the time to diagram plays that show us why you are so smart, I'll continue to stay firmly on the JKM bandwagon. Also, I'm going to start calling you Kanye because you like to talk about how awesome you are all the time.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

As I have pointed out multiple times, the passing defense was "fixed" at the expense of the run defense. The numbers for the 2011 and 2012 defenses are almost identical as a whole. The DTs are only part of the problem, the bigger more difficult problem to fix is the mentality of our linebacker play.

You point things out incorrectly many times. The pass defense was not fixed at the expense of the run defense. The pass defense was fixed by more aggressive corner play and dumping boundary and field. Proof that OU didn't fix the pass defense at the expense of the run defense was in the Texas and Texas Tech games when Oklahoma DID use two linebackers and both Ash and Doege had their worst games of the season. OU's pass defense was not a product of dumping the linebackers and that will also be proven this season. The Sooner LBs were getting smashed a number of times in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (when on the field) by the opposing offensive linemen and that was because the Sooner defensive front were getting their butt kicked and that went beyond them not capable of playing a two-gap.

Mike knee-jerk reacted unfortunately with the games coming up with Baylor, WVU and OSU and dumped the linebackers for the most part and that was a mistake that he has freely acknowledged. Those games wouldn't have been near as close with 2 linebackers. He won't do that this season, but at least he tried different things unlike Brent Vulnerables. Nelson and Shannon should have been on the field the entire time last season and Wort was nothing more than a cancer along the lines of Mike Woods and William Bartee in the 1999 season. Wort was butt-hurt by the departure of Venables just as Woods and Bartee were of the new coaching staff not retaining Rex Ryan. I would actually like to see a competent replacement for Nelson though as he has come nowhere near close to his prep accolades.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Statapalooza

2011 - Total Defense - 376.15 | Pass Defense - 241.46 | Rush Defense 134.69
2012 - Total Defense - 398.31 | Pass Defense - 206.08 | Rush Defense 192.23

2011 - Opp First Downs - 250 | By Pass - 131 | By Rush - 98
2012 - Opp First Downs - 250 | By Pass - 120 | By Rush - 111

2011 - Yards/Play - 5.1 | per Rush - 3.7 | per Pass - 6.6 (Per Catch - 12.2)
2012 - Yards/Play - 5.7 | per Rush - 5.2 | per Pass - 6.4 (Per Catch - 12.2)

*this stat to me is a tough one to figure out. Part of it is explained by the mantra why pass when you can run? But the fact that we made our run defense 50% less effective for a rounding error worth of gain in pass defense is significant.

edit: in case you are curious, this amounts to a little over 2 less completions per game in 4 less attempts. This compares to 1 more rushing attempt per game by an opponent for almost 60 more yards.

2011 - Opp TDs - 33 | By Pass 18 | By Rush - 15
2012 - Opp TDs - 38 | By Pass 11 | By Rush - 27

2011 - Opp TOs - 27 | Fumbles 12 Lost (20) | INTs 15
2012 - Opp TOs - 16 | Fumbles 3 Lost (6) | INTs 13

[C&CDean]

Sheez Louise. Make it stop.

[picasso]

Remember that time Landry bailed our asses out in Stillwater? That bastard. Lets get him!

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Remember that time Landry bailed our asses out in Stillwater? That bastard. Lets get him!

Or that really nice pass that fail out of his hands in Stillwater in 2011 that went for a score? Great play!

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Statapalooza

2011 - Total Defense - 376.15 | Pass Defense - 241.46 | Rush Defense 134.69
2012 - Total Defense - 398.31 | Pass Defense - 206.08 | Rush Defense 192.23

2011 - Opp First Downs - 250 | By Pass - 131 | By Rush - 98
2012 - Opp First Downs - 250 | By Pass - 120 | By Rush - 111

2011 - Yards/Play - 5.1 | per Rush - 3.7 | per Pass - 6.6 (Per Catch - 12.2)
2012 - Yards/Play - 5.7 | per Rush - 5.2 | per Pass - 6.4 (Per Catch - 12.2)

*this stat to me is a tough one to figure out. Part of it is explained by the mantra why pass when you can run? But the fact that we made our run defense 50% less effective for a rounding error worth of gain in pass defense is significant.

edit: in case you are curious, this amounts to a little over 2 less completions per game in 4 less attempts. This compares to 1 more rushing attempt per game by an opponent for almost 60 more yards.

2011 - Opp TDs - 33 | By Pass 18 | By Rush - 15
2012 - Opp TDs - 38 | By Pass 11 | By Rush - 27

2011 - Opp TOs - 27 | Fumbles 12 Lost (20) | INTs 15
2012 - Opp TOs - 16 | Fumbles 3 Lost (6) | INTs 13


Another huge difference between 2011 and 2012 is this:

Ronnell Lewis
Frank Alexander
Travis Lewis

It's frightening to think that Oklahoma most likely would have lost to Baylor and Texas Tech in back to back seasons if Brent Venables would have returned and without those guys. Those three guys were able to overcome a lot of the significant weaknesses by the Sooner DTs. Again, this season, Oklahoma will be fielding at least 2 linebackers in every single game and we'll see more defensive results like we witnessed against Texas and Texas Tech who both had their worst overall offensive outings of the season.

The pass defense was legit, the rushing defense will be addressed by going to the one-gap and no longer being held back by McFarland, McGee and Walker and Washington at the DE spot. Talent will prove to matter more than experience up front. So why wasn't the likes of Jordan Phillips starting over McFarland, Walker/McGee then? It wasn't because of him being raw, it was for the same reason that Coach Shipp got fired.

You can't tell me that OU's pass defense isn't legit:

Nick Florence: 36.4% completion percentage was his worst of the season and the only game where he didn't throw a touchdown pass this season.
Geno Smith: 57.1% completion percentage and 2 of his 6 interceptions on the season came in the Oklahoma game.
Clint Chelf: In his 6 starts, this 51.4% completion was his lowest of the season.
Seth Doege: The only game where he didn't throw a single TD pass and had a season high 3 interceptions.
David Ash: 44.8% completion percentage was his worst of the season and 0 TDs and 2 INTs.

And Oklahoma did use two linebackers in the Texas and Texas Tech games which goes against your statement that Oklahoma sacrificed the run defense in favor of the pass defense. Doege and Ash had their worst games of the seasons. And the performances of the other QBs were due largely to the coverage ability of the Sooner corners and safeties and despite getting zero help up-front.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

You can act like a pathetic, blow-hard all you want but until you start taking the time to diagram plays that show us why you are so smart, I'll continue to stay firmly on the JKM bandwagon. Also, I'm going to start calling you Kanye because you like to talk about how awesome you are all the time.

I prefer to pretty much act like a know-it-all fool.

[SoonerAtKU]

Rushing Yardage by Game

UTEP - 207 - Outrushed OU
FAMU - 61 - No Contest
KSU - 213 - More than doubled OU's rushing total
TTU - 89
Texas - 74 - Down multiple scores early
KU - 185 - Doubled OU's rushing total despite being blown out
ND - 215 - I don't know the word for it but they had over FOURTEEN TIMES as many rushing yards as OU
ISU - 99
BU - 252 - Outrushed OU
WVU - 458 - Do we need to rehash this one and why Geno Smith didn't have to pass for all that many yards?
OSU - 201 - Almost double OU's rushing total
TCU - 119
TAMU - 326 - More than Double OU's rushing total

By my count that's 8 out of 13 games where OU's rush defense significantly underperformed against expectations. I haven't done a comparison against those teams' normal rushing totals, but I think this is enough. In fact, if you remove the FAMU game which should have no impact on how OU fares against similar talent, you see OU giving up 203+ yards per game. That would translate to...exactly the 101st ranked rush defense in FBS. Now, to be consistent, I'd have to remove the overmatched opponents for every FBS team and re-adjust, but I feel the point stands.

[Fraggle145]

...Travis Lewis...

Bringing up Travis Lewis with JKM is never a good idea.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Another huge difference between 2011 and 2012 is this:

Ronnell Lewis
Frank Alexander
Travis Lewis

It's frightening to think that Oklahoma most likely would have lost to Baylor and Texas Tech in back to back seasons if Brent Venables would have returned and without those guys. Those three guys were able to overcome a lot of the significant weaknesses by the Sooner DTs. Again, this season, Oklahoma will be fielding at least 2 linebackers in every single game and we'll see more defensive results like we witnessed against Texas and Texas Tech who both had their worst overall offensive outings of the season.

The pass defense was legit, the rushing defense will be addressed by going to the one-gap and no longer being held back by McFarland, McGee and Walker and Washington at the DE spot. Talent will prove to matter more than experience up front. So why wasn't the likes of Jordan Phillips starting over McFarland, Walker/McGee then? It wasn't because of him being raw, it was for the same reason that Coach Shipp got fired.

You can't tell me that OU's pass defense isn't legit:

Nick Florence: 36.4% completion percentage was his worst of the season and the only game where he didn't throw a touchdown pass this season.
Geno Smith: 57.1% completion percentage and 2 of his 6 interceptions on the season came in the Oklahoma game.
Clint Chelf: In his 6 starts, this 51.4% completion was his lowest of the season.
Seth Doege: The only game where he didn't throw a single TD pass and had a season high 3 interceptions.
David Ash: 44.8% completion percentage was his worst of the season and 0 TDs and 2 INTs.

And Oklahoma did use two linebackers in the Texas and Texas Tech games which goes against your statement that Oklahoma sacrificed the run defense in favor of the pass defense. Doege and Ash had their worst games of the seasons. And the performances of the other QBs were due largely to the coverage ability of the Sooner corners and safeties and despite getting zero help up-front.

1. Venables gets a bad wrap from our fanbase. He is portrayed as inept instead of what he was - a one dimensional coordinator. The guy was really really good at matching a defense to his players. What he wasn't good at was game day calls, creating a system and then recruiting to it, and finding more than one good linebacker every 3 years. To be honest, the gameday call problem was all on Bob. BV was doing a defensive version of the meerkat trying to get the perfect call in at the last minute (which was why our pass defense was never on the same page). When someone falls into that trap it is the responsibility of the head coach to yank on the leash.

2. You seem to be missing the point that a defense can have a totally different philosophy that is reflected in the stats. Any coach not named Mike Leach will tell you that they want to establish the run. Running the ball for 5 yards is much less risky than throwing it for 12. BVs defenses were predicated on stopping the run first and forcing the other team to be one dimensional which would result in incompletions, sacks, or turnovers. His philosophy was stop the run, force long yardage, force mistakes. The biggest downside to this system was that it took 2 years of on the field experience in the secondary before they were comfortable and made it work. This is why our pass defense had such wildly swinging numbers year over year. The safeties, especially, took it on the chin if they were inexperienced in picking up their keys.

Mike came in with a much more simplistic strategy - I'm going to go one on one at every position and out-talent you. The result was that every fundamental player weakness was exposed by the Texas game (instead of the last 3 like they were under BV). Everyone attacked us where they out-talented us with low-risk plays that resulted in high rewards.

3. Travis Lewis would have failed just as hard as the linebackers we had out there. The guy was an excellent linebacker if you didn't block him, the problem this year was that with our man defense there were plenty of blockers for the linebackers. I just don't think you realize how much Venables protected the guy with scheme.

The other 2 guys are a little more problematic in that teams were already game planning to eliminate our DEs from the point of attack (normally with isolation). This becomes a question of could R Lewis have made a play that Ndulae was no where near making. Yes, there would be some impact, but not as much as you would think. R Lewis wasn't going to be able to outrun Tavon to the sideline anymore than Ndulae was.

3. One thing that I don't understand is how people are okay with Mike Stoops being totally unprepared in games as to how to stop a team. When you see a coach rotate in about 10 personnel groupings, it is a sign that they are just throwing crap against the wall to see if something sticks. When you see that you have to wonder how much do they remember about being an actual DC? This entire season read like MS was in a fantasy land trying to figure out ways to make his DBs effective instead of his DEFENSE effective.

4. Shipp should have been fired 6-7 years ago. Shipp brought in a total of 4 OU quality DTs in 12 years (out of 24 since I'm giving him a pass for 2 AA OL). There is no excuse for our DEs under Stoops to be a long chain of guys who are vying for All Big 12 1st team and our DTs to be 1 superstar and a bunch of scrubs.

5. I hope you are right about your crop of DTs. Watching the spring game, they are still prone to the same silliness we've seen on the DL for the last 6 years. Crap like going where the OL wants them to go, getting pushed back because they lose leverage, and not locating the ball carrier. The only guy who looked like he knew they were playing football and not wrestling was Ndulae. The problem with him is that he doesn't have the size to be that effective over a 12 game season (just like King this year).

6. As for the pass defense, quantitatively, I showed you the numbers. The only difference between last year and this year was in the number of pass attempts per game. Teams still completed passes against us at a 50% clip. When they caught them they still gained 12.2 yards. Qualitatively, yes it WAS better, but the effect that the philosophy change to our run defense had overshadowed any gains.

[picasso]

Or that really nice pass that fail out of his hands in Stillwater in 2011 that went for a score? Great play!
Of course I remember that. And his overthrow to Green against ksu this past season was dreadful. But don't act like he never did anything for OU. He won a lot pf games for us with his arm.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Bringing up Travis Lewis with JKM is never a good idea.

My problem with Lewis was with his lack of hustle. His strengths/weaknesses were what they were and there wasn't much he could do about them. Jogging every other play, now that was something that he definitely COULD have fixed. That being said, Lewis would have been in much the same boat this last year as Wort and Nelson. Had Mike put in a read and react DL scheme that was about occupying blockers (like he had installed in 1999 and 2000) then Lewis would have been a huge upgrade over what we had last year.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Bringing up Travis Lewis with JKM is never a good idea.

The guy that had more tackles his freshman season than Corey Nelson does in his 3 year career?

[thecrimsoncrusader]

1. Venables gets a bad wrap from our fanbase. He is portrayed as inept instead of what he was - a one dimensional coordinator. The guy was really really good at matching a defense to his players. What he wasn't good at was game day calls, creating a system and then recruiting to it, and finding more than one good linebacker every 3 years. To be honest, the gameday call problem was all on Bob. BV was doing a defensive version of the meerkat trying to get the perfect call in at the last minute (which was why our pass defense was never on the same page). When someone falls into that trap it is the responsibility of the head coach to yank on the leash.

2. You seem to be missing the point that a defense can have a totally different philosophy that is reflected in the stats. Any coach not named Mike Leach will tell you that they want to establish the run. Running the ball for 5 yards is much less risky than throwing it for 12. BVs defenses were predicated on stopping the run first and forcing the other team to be one dimensional which would result in incompletions, sacks, or turnovers. His philosophy was stop the run, force long yardage, force mistakes. The biggest downside to this system was that it took 2 years of on the field experience in the secondary before they were comfortable and made it work. This is why our pass defense had such wildly swinging numbers year over year. The safeties, especially, took it on the chin if they were inexperienced in picking up their keys.

Mike came in with a much more simplistic strategy - I'm going to go one on one at every position and out-talent you. The result was that every fundamental player weakness was exposed by the Texas game (instead of the last 3 like they were under BV). Everyone attacked us where they out-talented us with low-risk plays that resulted in high rewards.

3. Travis Lewis would have failed just as hard as the linebackers we had out there. The guy was an excellent linebacker if you didn't block him, the problem this year was that with our man defense there were plenty of blockers for the linebackers. I just don't think you realize how much Venables protected the guy with scheme.

The other 2 guys are a little more problematic in that teams were already game planning to eliminate our DEs from the point of attack (normally with isolation). This becomes a question of could R Lewis have made a play that Ndulae was no where near making. Yes, there would be some impact, but not as much as you would think. R Lewis wasn't going to be able to outrun Tavon to the sideline anymore than Ndulae was.

3. One thing that I don't understand is how people are okay with Mike Stoops being totally unprepared in games as to how to stop a team. When you see a coach rotate in about 10 personnel groupings, it is a sign that they are just throwing crap against the wall to see if something sticks. When you see that you have to wonder how much do they remember about being an actual DC? This entire season read like MS was in a fantasy land trying to figure out ways to make his DBs effective instead of his DEFENSE effective.

4. Shipp should have been fired 6-7 years ago. Shipp brought in a total of 4 OU quality DTs in 12 years (out of 24 since I'm giving him a pass for 2 AA OL). There is no excuse for our DEs under Stoops to be a long chain of guys who are vying for All Big 12 1st team and our DTs to be 1 superstar and a bunch of scrubs.

5. I hope you are right about your crop of DTs. Watching the spring game, they are still prone to the same silliness we've seen on the DL for the last 6 years. Crap like going where the OL wants them to go, getting pushed back because they lose leverage, and not locating the ball carrier. The only guy who looked like he knew they were playing football and not wrestling was Ndulae. The problem with him is that he doesn't have the size to be that effective over a 12 game season (just like King this year).

6. As for the pass defense, quantitatively, I showed you the numbers. The only difference between last year and this year was in the number of pass attempts per game. Teams still completed passes against us at a 50% clip. When they caught them they still gained 12.2 yards. Qualitatively, yes it WAS better, but the effect that the philosophy change to our run defense had overshadowed any gains.


My goodness, we agree on something. Yes, Coach Shipp should have been fired long ago. :) It's very disappointing how complacent he got in terms of coaching and recruiting. Venables was the DC for 8 years, so he can fairly be judged. The one thing that wasn't his fault is most of the bowl games. The Sooner offense failed to show in most of those games and probably have a 2.8 turnover per game average in bowl games.

At least Mike Stoops tried different things last season and he learned his lesson that's it's a bad idea to not use linebackers at all even if they aren't that good. Actually, I think Shannon will be good, but Nelson is a bust in relation to what his prep credentials were. With Venables, we were stuck with the nickle and stuck with him using a linebacker hybrid at the nickle that really needed to be a true DB in terms of physical traits. Thats the type of crap that killed OU against Texas Tech, which fortunately Mike remedied in just one single season.

New coaching personnel and new player personnel or not, this season is going to show where Oklahoma is headed in the coming years. I think the results are going to surprise a lot of people this upcoming season. Very much a team that gets ranked way too low in the pre-season ala the 2000 squad. The schedule sets up nice with a bye week for ND, a bye week for Baylor and a bye week for OSU. Last season's bye week arrangement was an uncontrollable disaster that didn't allow Landry to get a much needed rhythm with his mostly new receiving corps. Lots of the Big 12 teams have been gutted and outside of TCU, the ones that weren't gutted are breaking in new unproven offensive coordinators (OSU and Texas).

[OU_Sooners75]

I'm not upset about being wrong. You just randomly throw out data and think that the world can infer from said randomness that "Stills saved Landry's backside a number of times on great catches on bad throws". That is even more annoying than 75 pulling unsupported "facts" out of his rear. Now this is a statement that can be debated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcQveZWSHF4
Season Highlight Video - This should have all of those amazing "bail out" catches on them

2:30 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones between corner and safety
2:56 - Stills TD - Perfect strike on a perfect seal from Stills
4:52 - Stills TD - Juggling catch after getting hit in the hands
5:38 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones
6:27 - Stills TD - Perfect strike from Jones leading him away from the defender. Seriously this one was ALL on Jones he threw it from the opposite side of the field

So only 5 were so amazing that they made the end of season highlight film and only 1 of them could be considered a bailout by Stills and even on it the ball hit him in the hands. Strangely enough, had your argument been about Justin Brown you'd have some merits. He made some TOUGH catches last year.

As for the DL, yep we'll see. I have to tell you that the spring game performance was less than stellar. But they still have 4 months to prove you right.

I know you fondle yourself thinking you are always correct. But face it, your wrong.

Each year Landry started, the TE has evaporated more and more.

His first two seasons as starter (under Wilson), the TE was use more often than the last two seasons.

Hell, did we even use a true TE last season?

Fact: Hannah saved the day twice vs. OSU in 2010. Not one TE saved the day in 2011 or 2012.
Fact: Wilson used true TEs, Huepel not so his first 2 seasons as OC.

You want unsupported facts, try looking at a lot of your bull**** drivel you post.

[OU_Sooners75]

You can act like a pathetic, blow-hard all you want but until you start taking the time to diagram plays that show us why you are so smart, I'll continue to stay firmly on the JKM bandwagon. Also, I'm going to start calling you Kanye because you like to talk about how awesome you are all the time.

Sorry, but anyone that has spent ample enough time in a film room can do what JKM has done in the past. Doesn't make the guy a football guru moreso than anyone else.

If you want to idolize someone for their evaluations of players, look to STEP. The man does a great job!

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I know you fondle yourself thinking you are always correct. But face it, your wrong.

Each year Landry started, the TE has evaporated more and more.

His first two seasons as starter (under Wilson), the TE was use more often than the last two seasons.

Hell, did we even use a true TE last season?

Fact: Hannah saved the day twice vs. OSU in 2010. Not one TE saved the day in 2011 or 2012.
Fact: Wilson used true TEs, Huepel not so his first 2 seasons as OC.

You want unsupported facts, try looking at a lot of your bull**** drivel you post.

Point 1 - Nope
Point 2 - Sequentially? No. Cumulatively? This depends on how you view Milard's role. Our coaches have always Jones'd over the concept of having players that can play multiple positions so they don't have to sub in/out. I personally would argue against it because of types of routes ran (meaning that he tended to be outside and they put WRs in the middle of the defense).

Point 3 - Hanna had a 54 yard TD in 2011. I have no idea if it "saved the day".

Point 4 - True TEs are not required in every offense. Look at Dallas, they run a TE scheme similar to what we did with Milard and they are semi-successful with it. Notes: 2011 we have more catches from the TE than any other year under Landry. It should also be noted that Bradford averaged 70 completions to the TEs in 2007/2008 but did not have a single one in 2009 in 59 attempts.

Point 5 - Are you saying that game stats aren't facts? Most of the things I post either are accompanied by pictures or stats.

TE utilization has always been a little hard to project because it requires you to be good at other things before they start to show up. Your WRs either have to push the safeties back, or your play action game has to pull up the linebackers. If you have those things then your TEs have to be good at getting open and catching the ball. This is how we have 50 catches by Trent Smith one year and then 18 by Bubba Moses the next year when pretty much everything else stayed the same.

catches by TEs

2009 - 21
2010 - 28
2011 - 37
2012 - 3*

*this jumps to 33 if you count Millard as a flex TE

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Sorry, but anyone that has spent ample enough time in a film room can do what JKM has done in the past. Doesn't make the guy a football guru moreso than anyone else.

If you want to idolize someone for their evaluations of players, look to STEP. The man does a great job!

I'll go one step further. Anyone who stops their DVR and looks at more than the QB can do what I do. The funny thing is that I really didn't post much about football until the end of 2000. And the only reason that I DO post about football is to level set expectations. Everyone expects us to win a national title every year regardless of how realistic that is with the personnel we have on the roster. When we don't win it is always the fault of X or Y or Z and they should be fired.

And 75, remember our argument last year. I said there was a strong possibility that we could have a worse defense this year if we let BV go for someone else. You were the one that said that I was insane.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Of course, what games did Oklahoma actually lose in the 2012 season because of the defense? Given that the offense only scored 13 points against ND and ATM and 19 against KSU, I would say zero. :unconscious: Granted, the offense saved the defense's bacon, but OU didn't lose a game on defense the way they did in the 2011 season. And OU's defense did make some plays when they needed to in the OSU and WVU games unlike in 2011 when they didn't make plays when they needed to in the Texas Tech and Baylor games. Hey, it's progress!

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Of course, what games did Oklahoma actually lose in the 2012 season because of the defense? Given that the offense only scored 13 points against ND and ATM and 19 against KSU, I would say zero. :unconscious: Granted, the offense saved the defense's bacon, but OU didn't lose a game on defense the way they did in the 2011 season. And OU's defense did make some plays when they needed to in the OSU and WVU games unlike in 2011 when they didn't make plays when they needed to in the Texas Tech and Baylor games. Hey, it's progress!

heh. I think our fundamental problem here is that the bar is so low right now that we are grasping at straws. When you are fielding defenses that would make John Blake frown, you have a problem.

[SoonerBBall]

Sorry, but anyone that has spent ample enough time in a film room can do what JKM has done in the past. Doesn't make the guy a football guru moreso than anyone else.

If you want to idolize someone for their evaluations of players, look to STEP. The man does a great job!

I like STEP just fine and he agrees with JKM more often than not, so what does that say?

I also don't care if what he can do is easy, no one else does it for us so I'll continue to stick with his honest, easy to understand assessments.