So if Oklahoma state tax revenue is down...

[badger]

Does that mean we actually got a tax cut? :D

Via Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/State_local_tax_revenues_declined_in_March/20130411_61_A16_Stater972783)


State revenues dropped by 4.7 percent in March from the same month a year ago and 13 percent below expectations. Total revenue was $413.9 million, which was $20.6 million less than a year ago and $61.6 million below the official budget estimate, according to the Office of Management and Enterprise Services.

I'd like your thoughts on a potential state income tax decrease in Oklahoma. Non-Oklahoma resident opinions welcome too, especially residents of Texas (no state income tax) and Kansas (where they recently decreased state income tax), and please indicate your place of residence and the tax situation if you know what it is there.

I grew up in Wisconsin where property and income taxes were fairly high, from what my parents said, but sales tax was 5 percent (with an additional 0.5 percent for local sales tax). When I visited Oklahoma in earlier years, I was really surprised at how high the sales tax was. Being little with little money to match, about 8 percent was a big number to me (I think Tulsa County is just below 8 percent now with a bunch of nickle and diming in local initiatives).

[BermudaSooner]

Well, we did get a tax decrease. In 2007 the rate was 5.65%, went down to 5.5% in 2008, and down to 5.25% in 2012....and corresponding lower rates for those making below $26,000 (or thereabouts).

[Soonerjeepman]

sales tax here in Johnson County (tabbed as the wealthiest or one of) is 7.5 my city (Overland Park in JoCo) is 8.6...

Kansas gov eventually wants the income tax to 0 and also reduce or take away the mortgage deduction. Which I understand is great for folks who have paid off their home but for us that haven't that really helps. Guess I haven't done the math as far as no income tax vs mortgage deduction to see which is better.

[BermudaSooner]

Guess I haven't done the math as far as no income tax vs mortgage deduction to see which is better.

Zero is always better than something positive when it comes to paying taxes!

The math you need is your consumption spending and how much would sales tax go up, versus what you pay in income taxes. Your increase in sales tax will be offset by saving your income tax.

Biggest problem, though, is if you itemize, your Kansas income tax is deductible from your federal income. If you have no Kansas income tax and pay all of your taxes through sales tax, you will see your federal tax bill go up....so the math isn't all that easy.

[badger]

Baby baj made this year's tax refund the biggest either NP or I have ever seen :)

Here's income tax info for the state of Oklahoma (http://www.tax-brackets.org/oklahomataxtable) (via tax commish site)

The highest rate is 5.5 percent, the lowest is 0.5 percent.

The state sales tax is 4.5 percent (absent local taxes). Tulsa adds in an additional 3.167 percent, for example.

A saw a few areas (http://www.tax.ok.gov/publicat/copos/copo1Q13.pdf) that had an additional 5 percent, but I don't think it got any higher than that.

[SoonerBBall]

We should eliminate all taxes currently collected by the state except for the sales tax, then increase the sales tax to cover the lost tax revenue. That would eliminate the necessity for individuals to file any kind of tax information with the state and would be fair and equitable to all.

[badger]

We should eliminate all taxes currently collected by the state except for the sales tax, then increase the sales tax to cover the lost tax revenue. That would eliminate the necessity for individuals to file any kind of tax information with the state and would be fair and equitable to all.

Except for businesses in Oklahoma when all of their customers jump across the border to buy everything :)

But consumers would never do anything to dodge sales tax would they? They are honest and upfront with the government when purchasing things online, after all :D

[Fraggle145]

Baby baj made this year's tax refund the biggest either NP or I have ever seen :)

Here's income tax info for the state of Oklahoma (http://www.tax-brackets.org/oklahomataxtable) (via tax commish site)

The highest rate is 5.5 percent, the lowest is 0.5 percent.

The state sales tax is 4.5 percent (absent local taxes). Tulsa adds in an additional 3.167 percent, for example.

A saw a few areas (http://www.tax.ok.gov/publicat/copos/copo1Q13.pdf) that had an additional 5 percent, but I don't think it got any higher than that.

Even with our new baby credit we still have to pay OK. **** those government bastards. If they were doing something useful with it besides writing every unconstitutional law ever and then defending them I'd feel better about it.

[badger]

Even with our new baby credit we still have to pay OK. **** those government bastards. If they were doing something useful with it besides writing every unconstitutional law ever and then defending them I'd feel better about it.

OH yeah, us too, it seems like we never withhold enough for state taxes, but at least unlike other years, we aren't paying our entire federal refund back via a check to the state around tax time.

[KantoSooner]

States have some functions, those functions must be paid for some way. You and I are going to pay for it one way or the other. You can argue over whether the money is spent wisely, but, unless you live in a low pop, high resource state (like Alaska), you're going to pay. I'd prefer some combo of income and sales taxes, but that's just me.

[Fraggle145]

States have some functions, those functions must be paid for some way. You and I are going to pay for it one way or the other. You can argue over whether the money is spent wisely, but, unless you live in a low pop, high resource state (like Alaska), you're going to pay. I'd prefer some combo of income and sales taxes, but that's just me.

Hell I try to take the max out of my check so at tax time I dont have to worry about paying ****. And I still always end up paying OK. They (I dont know which they mind you) need to do a better job of taking out the correct amount because as far as I know I've done everything I can on my end.

[pphilfran]

Hell I try to take the max out of my check so at tax time I dont have to worry about paying ****. And I still always end up paying OK. They (I dont know which they mind you) need to do a better job of taking out the correct amount because as far as I know I've done everything I can on my end.

What do you mean? Just bump up the number of dependents on your W4.....

It is a good thing to pay each year...if you are getting a check you are giving the IRS a free loan...


You get nailed with a penalty if you have to pay too much...

"Generally, most taxpayers will avoid this penalty if they owe less than $1,000 in tax after subtracting their withholdings and credits, or if they paid at least 90% of the tax for the current year, or 100% of the tax shown on the return for the prior year, whichever is smaller."

[SoonerBBall]

Except for businesses in Oklahoma when all of their customers jump across the border to buy everything :)

But consumers would never do anything to dodge sales tax would they? They are honest and upfront with the government when purchasing things online, after all :D

Of course people would, for some things. But they can't not spend money in OK if they live here. It would be no worse than having to deal with people cheating and dodging income tax. In fact, it would most likely be better as we can much more accurately predict consumption than employment, so we could more readily adapt a consumption tax to meet the requirements.

[pphilfran]

Revenue is down because the economy is slowing due to the tax increase that removed at least 2% of discretionary income...imo it is going to be a tough year...

[Fraggle145]

What do you mean? Just bump up the number of dependents on your W4.....

It is a good thing to pay each year...if you are getting a check you are giving the IRS a free loan...


You get nailed with a penalty if you have to pay too much...

"Generally, most taxpayers will avoid this penalty if they owe less than $1,000 in tax after subtracting their withholdings and credits, or if they paid at least 90% of the tax for the current year, or 100% of the tax shown on the return for the prior year, whichever is smaller."

I mean what more can you do besides claiming 0? Doesnt that take out the max? I dont want to have to save to pay taxes at the end of the year. I am a poor money manager as it is. And hence I dont plan well for that expense.

I know Jack and **** about taxes and financial **** in general because I make hardly anything.

[yermom]

i guess i don't get the idea of lowering taxes

is the state just flush with cash and nothing to spend money on?

[yermom]

I mean what more can you do besides claiming 0? Doesnt that take out the max? I dont want to have to save to pay taxes at the end of the year. I am a poor money manager as it is. And hence I dont plan well for that expense.

I know Jack and **** about taxes and financial **** in general because I make hardly anything.

i'm pretty sure you can go to zero and have them take more out.

if you are claiming zero and paying at the end of the year, you have to be doing something wrong :D

i've only owed when i did strange job changes and things

[Fraggle145]

i'm pretty sure you can go to zero and have them take more out.

if you are claiming zero and paying at the end of the year, you have to be doing something wrong :D

i've only owed when i did strange job changes and things

I get most of my money back from the feds, but for some reason OK puts it right in my *** no lube every damn year.

[olevetonahill]

i'm pretty sure you can go to zero and have them take more out.

if you are claiming zero and paying at the end of the year, you have to be doing something wrong :D

i've only owed when i did strange job changes and things

Heh, Hes prolly claiming Zero when he files also.:glee:

[pphilfran]

I mean what more can you do besides claiming 0? Doesnt that take out the max? I dont want to have to save to pay taxes at the end of the year. I am a poor money manager as it is. And hence I dont plan well for that expense.

I know Jack and **** about taxes and financial **** in general because I make hardly anything.
On line 6 of the W4 you can put in any additional amount you want deducted above and beyond the number of deductions...

[pphilfran]

i'm pretty sure you can go to zero and have them take more out.

if you are claiming zero and paying at the end of the year, you have to be doing something wrong :D

i've only owed when i did strange job changes and things

You can have cap gains and dividends, just mentioning two, that don't have any taxes deducted...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

i guess i don't get the idea of lowering taxes

is the state just flush with cash and nothing to spend money on?

They could lower taxes if they did away with the in-state tuition welfare program.:nonchalance:

[Soonerjeepman]

Zero is always better than something positive when it comes to paying taxes!

The math you need is your consumption spending and how much would sales tax go up, versus what you pay in income taxes. Your increase in sales tax will be offset by saving your income tax.

Biggest problem, though, is if you itemize, your Kansas income tax is deductible from your federal income. If you have no Kansas income tax and pay all of your taxes through sales tax, you will see your federal tax bill go up....so the math isn't all that easy.

I understand the sales tax bit...I don't spend a ton, but basic living expenses...but the bolded part...they are not saying that at all so folks are seeing that part...

[Chuck Bao]

I wonder the reasons that Oklahoma state revenue was down last year. One thing may be that the economic recovery isn't very broad based and trickle down from the oil industry isn't as much as expected. Another thing that I noticed in Thailand is that consumers remain quite cautious after going through a rough patch, which I think is a good thing for them, maybe a bad thing for the overall economy. Of course, as others have mentioned, there is leakage out of the system for a sales tax, as well as the numerous exemptions of income tax.

On a side note, I filed for a farm sales tax exemption number at the county courthouse today. It was quite embarrassing, actually.

County Assessor: "How many cows do you have?"

Me: "None. But, I'm thinking about it."

County Assessor: "And, what crops do you raise?"

Me: "Nothing".

County Assessor: "Oh, surely you raise hay."

Me: "I can honestly say that I raise hay."

County Assessor: "And you grow pecans?"

Me: "Yes, I have a few pecan trees. And, I have squirrels. I can make pecan pie. Nothing really commercial, no. Okay?"

County Assessor: "We will mail your request to OKC and you should hear back from them in two weeks. Don't see any reason why you shouldn't get your farm tax exempt status."

[East Coast Bias]

The state always finds a way to get your money. Up here in New Hampshire we have no sales tax or income tax but property tax is off the hook. Also the state has their hands in the lottery, meal taxes, and operates all the liquor stores. Not having the obvious tax streams makes the residents feel good but they get hosed in every other kind of way. I live in New Hampshire, work in Maine and end up paying several thousand dollars in Maine income tax because that is where my income originates....

[badger]

Of course people would, for some things. But they can't not spend money in OK if they live here. It would be no worse than having to deal with people cheating and dodging income tax. In fact, it would most likely be better as we can much more accurately predict consumption than employment, so we could more readily adapt a consumption tax to meet the requirements.

At the rate our neighbors are going on about the income tax, perhaps eventually all of our border states will have high sales taxes too?


Revenue is down because the economy is slowing due to the tax increase that removed at least 2% of discretionary income...imo it is going to be a tough year...

I thought about that as well, but is it down $20 per person (or whatever that estimate was that the SS tax cut end was going to take out)? Not sure about that. It seems lower. I'm looking more this direction for the culprit:
http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/400/img/photos/2012/07/17/6a/3f/Gasoline_prices_in_Tulsa_on_Tuesday_7-17-12.JPG

I remember when Hurricane Katrina hit and thinking these $3.20s prices were high (I was a poor college student back then, of course, but still). Now people are saying that they're "low?" And that this summer's going to be "low" too? Gag. Tulsa's been hovering around the $3.20s range for the past month, down from even higher (closer to $4) earlier this year, so maybe it might seem "low" compared to $4.

Also, someone mentioned not taking out any deductions on your paystub. I knew someone who had an employer that severely shortchanged his tax withholdings, leaving him with a thousands-of-dollars bill come the New Year. I know that tax withholdings are an interest-free loan to your government, but even so, it's much better than a thousdands-of-dollars surprise bill due in April. :eek:

[Fraggle145]

Also, someone mentioned not taking out any deductions on your paystub. I knew someone who had an employer that severely shortchanged his tax withholdings, leaving him with a thousands-of-dollars bill come the New Year. I know that tax withholdings are an interest-free loan to your government, but even so, it's much better than a thousdands-of-dollars surprise bill due in April. :eek:

My thoughts exactly. When doing my masters my stipends came from a fellowship that did not remove taxes. That first year was a big surprise...

[badger]

I remember mom back in accounting school said that some businesses would remark "I didn't pay any taxes because I didn't make any money last year."

derrrrrrrrrrrrp

[pphilfran]

Gas prices haven't really changed since March 2011...

A person making 50k a year will have 20 bucks a week less to spend....and 20 bucks a week is a lot when their discretionary spending only totals a couple hundred bucks a week...

A hundred million workers losing 20 bucks each (the minimum avg) amounts to 2 billion a week in less spending or 100 billion a year...

Add in your higher fuel prices...

Then the sequester hits added to the mix...

All of that is a big hit on an economy that was only growing at 2% to begin with...

[pphilfran]

I can easily see two or three hundred billion in discretionary spending being sucked away this year...

[trwxxa]

Biggest problem, though, is if you itemize, your Kansas income tax is deductible from your federal income. If you have no Kansas income tax and pay all of your taxes through sales tax, you will see your federal tax bill go up....so the math isn't all that easy.

Actually, if you have no state income tax, you can deduct your state sales tax. We do that in Texas. In Houston, Harris County, it can add up at 8.25%, even though there is no sales tax on groceries and other things.

[Jacie]

Don't worry, I will be sending my check to the OTC on Monday . . .

[BermudaSooner]

i guess i don't get the idea of lowering taxes

is the state just flush with cash and nothing to spend money on?

What? You don't get the idea of the government allowing you to keep more of what you earned? You think the government does a better job of spending your money than you do?

[badger]

What? You don't get the idea of the government allowing you to keep more of what you earned? You think the government does a better job of spending your money than you do?

I get that argument. I get it.

But Oklahomans also have first-hand experience with the state government nickel and diming them literally when state coffers don't pay for state services. I'm of course talking about our turnpikes, who remind you that correct change is required (even though it's not).

And then there's schools. The full cost of attending and educating is never covered by state tax money, so you have poor kids showing up on the first day without pencils and paper. You have teachers with wish lists for classroom necessities that the school couldn't afford. You have a church donation box requesting copy paper for a local elementary.

Be careful what you wish for when you wish for lower taxes to spend your money yourself. :(

[BermudaSooner]

Be careful what you wish for when you wish for lower taxes to spend your money yourself. :(

Be careful leaving a politician with unspent money. They will find some pet project for it, that likely only helps them get re-elected, and then that service or project becomes hard to cut at some point in the future.

[badger]

Be careful leaving a politician with unspent money. They will find some pet project for it, that likely only helps them get re-elected, and then that service or project becomes hard to cut at some point in the future.

I would be astonished if there was any unspent money at the state level or local levels these days of unending cuts.

[TAFBSooner]

On line 6 of the W4 you can put in any additional amount you want deducted above and beyond the number of deductions...

Frag's problem is with OK state tax witholding. W-4 / Line 6 only deals with Federal witholding.

Frag, are you claiming 0 dependents and Single? They will hold out more (at both levels) than 0 and Married. We do that and have a nice check* from the feds and $0 +/- $40 for Oklahoma for the last several years.

*Interest-free loan to the feds, yada yada. I understand the concept of trying to hit $990 balance due, with a savings allocation to pay for it, but we've prioritized not having to worry about going over the penalty-free $1000.