Midtowner Wants Your Kids...

[Blue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N3qtpdSQox0



They won't call it communism, statism, fascism, etc... but thats exactly what they are all about. Time to take them out before we are all living under their "control".

[SicEmBaylor]

Holy **** on a stick -- that's f'n scary as hell. Where the hell do these people come from?

[REDREX]

She is an idiot

[BigTip]

It takes a village = A socialist state

I wonder if the creators of that ad even know how scary it is.

[Midtowner]

So y'all disagree in public education?

[MR2-Sooner86]

So y'all disagree in public education?

Of course not. I love government indoctrination centers.

http://i.imgur.com/X0Ahi.jpg

[pphilfran]

I think too many of you are reading far too much into what she is saying...

[MR2-Sooner86]

I think too many of you are reading far too much into what she is saying...

Not really. She's a statist. When it comes to education, statist gonna state.

[Sooner Eclipse]

I think too many of you are reading far too much into what she is saying...

I think you and a lot of other Americans either do not listen to what these marxists are saying or interpret and excuse it as being benign. It is not.

[pphilfran]

I think you and a lot of other Americans either do not listen to what these marxists are saying or interpret and excuse it as being benign. It is not.

She isn't saying to take control of all kids...more like if we let the kids fail it will hurt all of us so we should all try to come up with overall solutions and not think only about individual cures..

But you are free to take it any way you wish...

[Sooner Eclipse]

She isn't saying to take control of all kids...more like if we let the kids fail it will hurt all of us so we should all try to come up with overall solutions and not think only about individual cures..

But you are free to take it any way you wish... I'm sure the parents of the Hitler youth felt the same way.

[olevetonahill]

Collective? EVERYONES responsibility ?
I dont think so Kemosabe .
Collective carp aint ever worked very well. YOUR kids are YOUR responsibility, NOT MINE.
I raised My kids and 2 sets of Steps.

[XingTheRubicon]

ie, certain people notoriously suck as parents and we need to change the rules for everyone so we can take care of democrats' kids.

[Midtowner]

When you stand against public education, you allow yourself to correctly be defined as an extremist. If you could (and you can't, since it's a sealed courtroom), you could go watch some juvenile proceedings in District Court. Parents don't have the right to abuse or neglect children. Children are not property, nor are they fully functioning adult human beings. Part of the state's responsibility is educating our youth. Education is seen throughout our state constitution and statutes. What's the argument against public education?

[Midtowner]

ie, certain people notoriously suck as parents and we need to change the rules for everyone so we can take care of democrats' kids.

You have the choice of investing in schools now or prisons later.

[okiewaker]

Our public education system is not very good in terms of overall results,,,no matter how much money we put into it. It's good we have choices other than Public Education.

[olevetonahill]

When you stand against public education, you allow yourself to correctly be defined as an extremist. If you could (and you can't, since it's a sealed courtroom), you could go watch some juvenile proceedings in District Court. Parents don't have the right to abuse or neglect children. Children are not property, nor are they fully functioning adult human beings. Part of the state's responsibility is educating our youth. Education is seen throughout our state constitution and statutes. What's the argument against public education?

No its NOT the States "Responsibility" to Educate The Children, Its the PARENTS responsibility to see that their children are educated and have a shot at a decent LIFE.
Too many parents have fallen down in that record and the state has Taken over.

I have NO prob with Public education as far as it goes. But you and I both know Its a second class education

[Soonerjeepman]

here is my take as a public educator.

#1 it's NOT the responsibility of everyone up front. We have gradually gone from parental responsibility to this "village" notion.

#2 with that said, how many of us knew if we jacked up in the neighborhood our parents soon knew and took action? lol. so even years ago, the little village thing was around, but not forced, just was.

#3 Not all parents are good parents or even people. I honestly don't believe that any parent WANTS to hurt their children...they just don't know...which is not an excuse.

#4 Being in the trenches, I'd say most teachers are good people who teach and preach personal responsibility, but also know these are kids that sometimes can't control where they are. We (the ones I know) are not teaching anything like a Hitler society. Yes there are issues, many...but we are just trying to get the kids to learn, make good choices.

As a teacher in the urban poor schools, I'm constantly told by the administration that we can't help what the parents do, they send their best and that it's up to us to make improvements...which I constantly call bs. Without responsible parents, rich, poor, black, white, yellow (white is not a race!..) the kids will not be successful. The unfortunate truth is the poor, uneducated, are having more kids than the middle/rich, educated. At some point the scales will tip (already have in my book) and the public schools in those areas will just continue to fail.

If you look at society in general, we are turning into a non-personal responsibility group...sucks. An example is the abortion thread...(not to turn this to that..) but at what point does one take responsibility for having unprotected sex which results in an unwanted pregnancy.

[Sooner Eclipse]

When you stand against public education, you allow yourself to correctly be defined as an extremist. If you could (and you can't, since it's a sealed courtroom), you could go watch some juvenile proceedings in District Court. Parents don't have the right to abuse or neglect children. Children are not property, nor are they fully functioning adult human beings. Part of the state's responsibility is educating our youth. Education is seen throughout our state constitution and statutes. What's the argument against public education?

You're right. Its the states job to defend children against crime just as they would an adult. It, however, is not the job of the state to start indoctrinating students to believe that constitutionalists are the extremist and statists are average american adults when in fact American history shows that is not the case. It also is not the job of the state to ensure an equal outcome in education because it never can regardless of how much it attempts to. People (not disabled) in poverty in this country are usually there because of personal habits or traits that define them.

[XingTheRubicon]

You have the choice of investing in schools now or prisons later.

because giving stupid people more money always works



There will always be maggots (of every race) no matter how much money we spend.


We've spent 15 Trillion on the poor since the mid-60's...and they're still stupid...and they're still poor.

[soonerhubs]

here is my take as a public educator.

#1 it's NOT the responsibility of everyone up front. We have gradually gone from parental responsibility to this "village" notion.

#2 with that said, how many of us knew if we jacked up in the neighborhood our parents soon knew and took action? lol. so even years ago, the little village thing was around, but not forced, just was.

#3 Not all parents are good parents or even people. I honestly don't believe that any parent WANTS to hurt their children...they just don't know...which is not an excuse.

#4 Being in the trenches, I'd say most teachers are good people who teach and preach personal responsibility, but also know these are kids that sometimes can't control where they are. We (the ones I know) are not teaching anything like a Hitler society. Yes there are issues, many...but we are just trying to get the kids to learn, make good choices.

As a teacher in the urban poor schools, I'm constantly told by the administration that we can't help what the parents do, they send their best and that it's up to us to make improvements...which I constantly call bs. Without responsible parents, rich, poor, black, white, yellow (white is not a race!..) the kids will not be successful. The unfortunate truth is the poor, uneducated, are having more kids than the middle/rich, educated. At some point the scales will tip (already have in my book) and the public schools in those areas will just continue to fail.

If you look at society in general, we are turning into a non-personal responsibility group...sucks. An example is the abortion thread...(not to turn this to that..) but at what point does one take responsibility for having unprotected sex which results in an unwanted pregnancy.

Excellent insight!

[Midtowner]

I have NO prob with Public education as far as it goes. But you and I both know Its a second class education

Depends. If you are in Idabel, you might be right. The schools there may be horrible. Here in the city though, my wife teaches at one of the top public high schools in the country, where the majority of the children are on free and reduced lunch and are non-white.

[XingTheRubicon]

^^^^^^^^^^^full of sh*t^^^^^^^^^^^^

[XingTheRubicon]

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/oklahoma


Top Ranked OK Schools

To be eligible for a state ranking, a school must be awarded a national gold or silver medal.
#1

Harding Charter Preparatory High School

3333 NORTH SHARTEL, OKLAHOMA CITY, OK 73118
#2

Classen School of Advanced Studies

1901 NORTH ELLISON, OKLAHOMA CITY, OK 73106
#3

Edmond North High School

215 WEST DANFORTH RD, EDMOND, OK 73003
#4

Booker T. Washington High School

1514 EAST ZION, TULSA, OK 74106
#5

Memorial High School

1000 EAST 15TH, EDMOND, OK 73013
#6

Norman High School

911 WEST MAIN ST, NORMAN, OK 73069
#7

Dove Science Academy

919 NW 23RD ST, OKLAHOMA CITY, OK 73106
#8

Deer Creek High School

6101 NW 206TH ST, EDMOND, OK 73012
#9

Norman North High School

1809 STUBBEMAN, NORMAN, OK 73069
#10

Santa Fe High School

1901 WEST 15TH ST, EDMOND OK, OK 73013

[XingTheRubicon]

another list...all with 80% plus white, non foodstamper public schools

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/05/20/america-s-best-high-schools.html

[MR2-Sooner86]

When you stand against public education, you allow yourself to correctly be defined as an extremist.

Spoken like a true statist. My way is the correct way and even if you disagree I'm going to use government force to make you see my way. I'm doing it for your own good.

Here's Lenin pretty much spewing the same talking points as Midtowner. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/aug/28.htm) Statist birds of a feather.


If you could (and you can't, since it's a sealed courtroom), you could go watch some juvenile proceedings in District Court. Parents don't have the right to abuse or neglect children. Children are not property, nor are they fully functioning adult human beings. Part of the state's responsibility is educating our youth. Education is seen throughout our state constitution and statutes. What's the argument against public education?

See, now he's comparing education to abuse and neglect.

My great uncle maybe had an education up to the fifth grade. He farmed most his life. To people like Midtowner, his parents we're evil because they didn't hand him over to the state for correct processing.

As seen here (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/parents-lose-custody-obesity-children/t/story?id=14062898&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Ftablet%2Fs%3Fp %3Dstate%2Bremove%2Boverweight%2Bchildren%2Bhomes% 26fr%3Dipad) the state thinks parents should lose their children who they deem "too fat."

Midtowner and his ilk treat education the same. They're against home schooling or any private education because they child isn't learning what they "authorize" them to learn. When you get down to it, it's about control.

Like I pointed out in this thread (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?176809-WTF-I-mean-Seriously-WTF&p=3596618&viewfull=1#post3596618), he wants the state in control of your wealth because you are greedy and selfish but he knows the correct and compassionate ways to use it. Same way he views your kids as he does your private wealth and property. You're too stupid and selfish to teach your kids correctly so the compassionate, caring and "fair" state of Big Mother must come in.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Bellamy_salute_1.jpg

A group of school children, in the United States, in early 1942.

Go ahead, tell me that's not statist worship. I dare you.

Want to know how public education has done? Most high school graduates can't answer this correctly.
Jack is looking at Anne, but Anne is looking at George. Jack is married, but George is not. Is a married person looking at an unmarried person?
A) Yes.
B) No.
C) Cannot be determined.


TL;DR
When it comes to the education of your kids, statist still gonna state.

[cleller]

Our public education system is not very good in terms of overall results,,,no matter how much money we put into it. It's good we have choices other than Public Education.

Public education is a fine idea. At one time, most of the schools were fine also.

The problem is the "public" part. Over the last 50 years, the precentage of properly disciplined and socializes students has fallen off a cliff.

[East Coast Bias]

I have mixed feelings on this as well. If public education had the money and parental support the private schools did, what would be the outcome? Of course the private schools get the students highly motivated that want to learn backed by a high level of parental support. The public schools get everything else. Like Mid, my wife has been a high school teacher for ten years. I work a lot of hours but my wife works much more. She is dedicated to the students and pours her life out to them daily. Sadly a good percentage of teachers are slackers, just like the students. There are problems in the public schools we need to address, but at one point helped make this country strong. We all went to public schools, right?

[Soonerjeepman]

I went to private, kids went to a very good suburban district, I teach in the urban...

the MAIN difference....PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT...our urban kids don't GAS because THEIR parents (in general) don't GAS

[Fraggle145]

Midtowner and his ilk treat education the same. They're against home schooling or any private education because they child isn't learning what they "authorize" them to learn. When you get down to it, it's about control.

My only problem with home school is that some times what people are teaching is factually wrong (I'm talking mainly about science here).

[okiewaker]

Our public education system is not very good in terms of overall results,,,no matter how much money we put into it. It's good we have choices other than Public Education.

Public education is a fine idea. At one time, most of the schools were fine also.

The problem is the "public" part. Over the last 50 years, the precentage of properly disciplined and socializes students has fallen off a cliff.

Exactly, it started as a "fine idea", like most gov programs, but its no longer meeting the needs of the students because of inept parents,, and lack of a challenging curriculum. It would better to let motivated parents opt-out of the public school system and use THEIR money to a better choice. Let those less motivated parents kids fall in the cracks for all I care.

[pphilfran]

And we are seeing the long term results of just letting kids fall through the cracks...

No doubt the current system needs a revamp....after 7th grade, or thereabouts, many kids should move into a vo tech/skill/trade program

[MR2-Sooner86]

My only problem with home school is that some times what people are teaching is factually wrong (I'm talking mainly about science here).

And? Do we really want to go down the road of telling people what beliefs are "accepted" and what aren't?

Yeah, I think creationism is bull sh*t but I'm not going to force somebody to learn evolution. If that's what they want to believe then so be it.

"But the kids are being brainwashed!"

Probably but kids get brainwashed with lots of crap from their parents. I believed the creationism story, or parts of it, up until I reached high school. I then reached the age of reason though and got past the years of indoctrination I suffered through. If I can see past it, so can others.

As the greatest philosopher of our time, George Carlin, said it's not important to teach children to read but to teach them to question what they read.

[OU_Sooners75]

People (not disabled) in poverty in this country are usually there because of personal habits or traits that define them.

This is the not far off when it comes to adults. But as far as children, you are full of **** if you really believe this.

Children didn't make the choice to whom they were birthed to. Therefore, you cannot say that a impoverished child is living in poverty because of their choices or traits.

[Fraggle145]

As the greatest philosopher of our time, George Carlin, said it's not important to teach children to read but to teach them to question what they read.

But how many in home school are being taught that? What are the demographics of those who attend home school? I dont know, just asking...

[diverdog]

Funny how none of you guys mention our publicly funded university system which is the best in the world.

[sappstuf]

You have the choice of investing in schools now or prisons later.

Are you trying to say that we don't invest in schools right now?

http://mat.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/us-schools-vs-international3.jpg

[cleller]

Good graphic. ^^

We're no Finland.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Funny how none of you guys mention our publicly funded university system which is the best in the world.

The difference between universities and secondary and below is that universities have to entice students to come there and pay money. Whereas public schools have a captive audience. Universities can also kick out the bad apples, not that the bad apples are paying money to go to school.

[jkjsooner]

Are you trying to say that we don't invest in schools right now?

http://mat.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/us-schools-vs-international3.jpg

I'd like to see this adjusted for population. It's hardly fair to compare absolute numbers. I'd also like to see this adjusted for cost of living.

[Midtowner]

^^^^^^^^^^^full of sh*t^^^^^^^^^^^^

The top school on that list is 52% non-white.

[Midtowner]

My great uncle maybe had an education up to the fifth grade. He farmed most his life. To people like Midtowner, his parents we're evil because they didn't hand him over to the state for correct processing.

He was probably not much of a deep thinker. Farmers of the past didn't have to have any sort of real formal education. It wasn't necessary. Farmers today have to understand everything from business to chemicals to the science of seed and pest control. Learning that could happen outside of an ag education, but it certainly wouldn't be the most efficient way to go about things. An illiterate farmer 50-60 years ago could do just fine. Today, he'd be screwed.


As seen here (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/parents-lose-custody-obesity-children/t/story?id=14062898&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Ftablet%2Fs%3Fp %3Dstate%2Bremove%2Boverweight%2Bchildren%2Bhomes% 26fr%3Dipad) the state thinks parents should lose their children who they deem "too fat."

You apparently didn't read the article. It wasn't talking about removing fat children from homes, just providing services to parents to ensure the children were being properly cared for in most cases, but in cases such as a 12-year-old weighing 400 pounds, that would probably look a lot like child abuse/neglect. I can definitely buy into that.


Midtowner and his ilk treat education the same. They're against home schooling or any private education because they child isn't learning what they "authorize" them to learn. When you get down to it, it's about control.

I went to private school for the vast majority of my educational career. I learned plenty about the Bible and about the history of the Catholic Church and about the great philosophers of the Church and of their philosophies. Aside from that, I learned the same crap everyone else does, Algebra, read a lot of classical literature, etc. No, we didn't have a class covering the sovereign citizen and how to be a complete selfish sociopath in society. Totally missed that one. Woops.


Like I pointed out in this thread (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?176809-WTF-I-mean-Seriously-WTF&p=3596618&viewfull=1#post3596618), he wants the state in control of your wealth because you are greedy and selfish but he knows the correct and compassionate ways to use it. Same way he views your kids as he does your private wealth and property. You're too stupid and selfish to teach your kids correctly so the compassionate, caring and "fair" state of Big Mother must come in.

Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort. It's just true that the government can attack problems with economies of scale which no other entity can realize. Further, the government is the only sort of entity outside of religious institutions (which in late years exist only to glorify themselves) which can act with truly altruistic motives. And yes, many are too stupid or selfish to teach their kids, so someone either has to do it now or warehouse them later in prison.


A group of school children, in the United States, in early 1942.

Go ahead, tell me that's not statist worship. I dare you.

This is a problem for you? Do you not have any sort of allegiance to your country? It's no more "statist worship" than the below.

http://www.aoshs.org/images/MakiFlagSalute.jpg


Want to know how public education has done? Most high school graduates can't answer this correctly.
Jack is looking at Anne, but Anne is looking at George. Jack is married, but George is not. Is a married person looking at an unmarried person?
A) Yes.
B) No.
C) Cannot be determined.

And a large number of people believe we are being governed by lizard people. So what's your point?

[XingTheRubicon]

The top school on that list is 52% non-white.

It also requires this:


Are parents required to do community service hours?
Yes, parents are required to do 25 community service hours to the school.


Like it was said before...it's a parenting issue. Not a money issue.

[Midtowner]

I'd like to see this adjusted for population. It's hardly fair to compare absolute numbers. I'd also like to see this adjusted for cost of living.

I'd also be interested in seeing "school aged" as not being defined 6-23 and instead as 4-18. I'm sure the U.S. spends a LOT more on higher ed than its counterparts.

[diverdog]

The difference between universities and secondary and below is that universities have to entice students to come there and pay money. Whereas public schools have a captive audience. Universities can also kick out the bad apples, not that the bad apples are paying money to go to school.

One of the biggest problems with public schools is that they have to take everyone and they cannot throw out the bad actors. A huge amount of the cost is to pay for special needs kids.

When I was in HS my school in Delaware was consistently ranked as a top 100 school in the US. The biggest reason is that our superintendent ruled with an iron fist. He had what the kids referred to as goon squads in the halls. If you were not where you belonged you got jacked up...anything from detention to getting smacked with the paddle. Sleeping in class was not tolerated and disrespecting a teacher was unheard of. That was in the 70's. The school is still a decent school but became a victim of its success as more and more people moved into the district. Now the class sizes are to big and the superintendent is more worried about sports than academics. Discipline went the way of the dinosaur.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

So y'all disagree in public education?

Effing yes!!! The indoctrination group...

[Curly Bill]

One of the biggest problems with public schools is that they have to take everyone and they cannot throw out the bad actors. A huge amount of the cost is to pay for special needs kids.

When I was in HS my school in Delaware was consistently ranked as a top 100 school in the US. The biggest reason is that our superintendent ruled with an iron fist. He had what the kids referred to as goon squads in the halls. If you were not where you belonged you got jacked up...anything from detention to getting smacked with the paddle. Sleeping in class was not tolerated and disrespecting a teacher was unheard of. That was in the 70's. The school is still a decent school but became a victim of its success as more and more people moved into the district. Now the class sizes are to big and the superintendent is more worried about sports than academics. Discipline went the way of the dinosaur.

This! ^^^^

[yermom]

so what do you propose in it's place?

[Curly Bill]

so what do you propose in it's place?

Teach the "special needs" kids how to put widgets together or something useful. Then we can prepare our best and brightest to go out and make something of themselves instead of having to dumb everything down because we have to "mainstream" the mouth breathers.

edit... special widget construction schools for those not cut out for real education.

[yermom]

i really meant that for THA

but the mouth breathers are only part of the problem. it's not like they are in the classes with the kids that are going to college

the biggest problem with public school is that a diploma is a joke. my diploma is the same as the mouth breather that plays with blocks. i left high school with college credit for calculus and computer programming, had a year of physics, and two years of chemistry, a year of human anatomy and physiology

it's way too easy to get through school without learning much, and making it to where no one can fail unless they stop going isn't helping anything. it's not like that gets you ready for college.

[Curly Bill]

i really meant that for THA

but the mouth breathers are only part of the problem. it's not like they are in the classes with the kids that are going to college


Well actually, yes they are. At least in smaller schools where they don't have the same capability of providing all the advanced and GT classes and such.

[Midtowner]

One of the biggest problems with public schools is that they have to take everyone and they cannot throw out the bad actors. A huge amount of the cost is to pay for special needs kids.

That's just not true. Public schools do have to take everyone and they CAN throw out the bad actors, or at least suspend them, and in many cases for a full year at a time and with strings attached to reenrollment.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=436512

This is not uncommon. In fact, we have a charter school in OKC which actually specializes in taking in and attempting to rehabilitate students who have been expelled elsewhere.

[Midtowner]

Teach the "special needs" kids how to put widgets together or something useful. Then we can prepare our best and brightest to go out and make something of themselves instead of having to dumb everything down because we have to "mainstream" the mouth breathers.

edit... special widget construction schools for those not cut out for real education.

We already do that.

And to the non-college-bound, we offer votech.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

i really meant that for THA

but the mouth breathers are only part of the problem. it's not like they are in the classes with the kids that are going to college

the biggest problem with public school is that a diploma is a joke. my diploma is the same as the mouth breather that plays with blocks. i left high school with college credit for calculus and computer programming, had a year of physics, and two years of chemistry, a year of human anatomy and physiology

it's way too easy to get through school without learning much, and making it to where no one can fail unless they stop going isn't helping anything. it's not like that gets you ready for college.

Wasn't sure who your note was referencing.

1. Get the unions out of education, prior to them infiltrating, the schools were for the children and parents and run by people who were allowed to do their job, not anymore...
2. Change the method of paying for education, esp. if the unions are still in indoctrination. Use a voucher system, you get a voucher for the same amount you are paying property taxes. These vouchers are good at any school you wish to send your kids, public, private, magnet, or "charter"...
3. Allow the schools to run the school as they see fit, punishment, curricula, as they see fit with input from the PTO, PTA, parents. Lose the fear of lawsuits in education/indoctrination.
4. Good schools will be rewarded, bad school driven out. Same with students, unfortunately, not much can be done with baby factories pumping 'em out and expecting good things to come when the home life is not enriching.

[Curly Bill]

We already do that.

And to the non-college-bound, we offer votech.

We don't do much of that, or not near enough. In Texas it's quite common to have the kid that can't read a simple sentence in the same class as the kid that's going to Harvard. It's better in many of the bigger schools, but in small schools with less staff I assure you that's very common.

[Curly Bill]

i really meant that for THA

but the mouth breathers are only part of the problem. it's not like they are in the classes with the kids that are going to college

the biggest problem with public school is that a diploma is a joke. my diploma is the same as the mouth breather that plays with blocks. i left high school with college credit for calculus and computer programming, had a year of physics, and two years of chemistry, a year of human anatomy and physiology

it's way too easy to get through school without learning much, and making it to where no one can fail unless they stop going isn't helping anything. it's not like that gets you ready for college.

Agreed. The main goal of the majority of schools is IMO to just pass kids right on through and keep the parents happy.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

We already do that.

And to the non-college-bound, we offer votech.

Need to get rid of that notion that EVERYONE should go to University. Many are not cut out for that rigor. We do need to make VoTech, Juco, Tech school, what have you a destination education. You do not need a B.S to be successful, you can be successful with a 2-year degree or certification. We need those type of skills just as much as we need people with B.S. degrees. In fact, we may need the 2-year or certification programs more as these people run the engine of the trades and factories...

[diverdog]

That's just not true. Public schools do have to take everyone and they CAN throw out the bad actors, or at least suspend them, and in many cases for a full year at a time and with strings attached to reenrollment.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=436512

This is not uncommon. In fact, we have a charter school in OKC which actually specializes in taking in and attempting to rehabilitate students who have been expelled elsewhere.

Midtown:

Unless a kid brings a gun or a knife to school it is pretty damn tough to get rid of them. Instead they just advance them through the grades and out the door. When I was in 10th grade we had a 18 year old in our class. He was much bigger than all the rest of us and bully. He should have been shown the curb.

And god help you if you get some loud mouth parent who thinks their brat can do no wrong. The ones who threaten everyone and make the spineless administrators bow to their every wish. They cannot look the parent in the eye and say "if you do not like it here then go somewhere else". A principal is not going to do that and they are more worried about CYA than doing the right thing for the schools.

As far as charter schools go in Delaware they operate by a totally different set of rules and are run more like private schools. I really think letting schools thin the heard so to speak and create an environment where kids have to compete for access is a good thing. Our best and brightest should have access to the best academic programs the nation has to offer.

My wife taught special education for a year and could not stand it. All the kids wanted to do was to have babies and flip burgers. Ya know what? The world needs burger flippers so let them have at it.

The US is in a global market and one of our biggest problems right now is that our educational system is not aligned with our national needs. We need engineers, software designers, innovators and people who can work in the high tech world of today. I actually like the German model for education where kids are identified early on and channeled into vocational schools or schools with rigorous academic studies. I also like their models of apprenticeship and the value of highly skilled labor. If you talk to recruiters they will tell you that many of the kids they recruit have to be retrained and/or educated. Somewhere we are failing and I do not think everyone has all the answers.

[Soonerjeepman]

That's just not true. Public schools do have to take everyone and they CAN throw out the bad actors, or at least suspend them, and in many cases for a full year at a time and with strings attached to reenrollment.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=436512

This is not uncommon. In fact, we have a charter school in OKC which actually specializes in taking in and attempting to rehabilitate students who have been expelled elsewhere.

pretty sure in my district that if they are special ed and are expelled we have to provide home services for them..

and YES the mouth breathers are in the same class as the college bound at the lower level.

[Soonerjeepman]

Midtown:

Unless a kid brings a gun or a knife to school it is pretty damn tough to get rid of them. Instead they just advance them through the grades and out the door. When I was in 10th grade we had a 18 year old in our class. He was much bigger than all the rest of us and bully. He should have been shown the curb.

And god help you if you get some loud mouth parent who thinks their brat can do no wrong. The ones who threaten everyone and make the spineless administrators bow to their every wish. They cannot look the parent in the eye and say "if you do not like it here then go somewhere else". A principal is not going to do that and they are more worried about CYA than doing the right thing for the schools.

As far as charter schools go in Delaware they operate by a totally different set of rules and are run more like private schools. I really think letting schools thin the heard so to speak and create an environment where kids have to compete for access is a good thing. Our best and brightest should have access to the best academic programs the nation has to offer.

My wife taught special education for a year and could not stand it. All the kids wanted to do was to have babies and flip burgers. Ya know what? The world needs burger flippers so let them have at it.

The US is in a global market and one of our biggest problems right now is that our educational system is not aligned with our national needs. We need engineers, software designers, innovators and people who can work in the high tech world of today. I actually like the German model for education where kids are identified early on and channeled into vocational schools or schools with rigorous academic studies. I also like their models of apprenticeship and the value of highly skilled labor. If you talk to recruiters they will tell you that many of the kids they recruit have to be retrained and/or educated. Somewhere we are failing and I do not think everyone has all the answers.

pretty dead on DD. I will add that we are so immersed in "everyone gets an award" the Trophy Generation that there is not a true distinguish(ment) for being the best...in urban schools that is.

[Midtowner]

We don't do much of that, or not near enough. In Texas it's quite common to have the kid that can't read a simple sentence in the same class as the kid that's going to Harvard. It's better in many of the bigger schools, but in small schools with less staff I assure you that's very common.

Well that's disfunction at the local level. In Oklahoma, we're requiring children to read before passing the third grade now, so maybe that'll help.

[Midtowner]

Midtown:

Unless a kid brings a gun or a knife to school it is pretty damn tough to get rid of them. Instead they just advance them through the grades and out the door. When I was in 10th grade we had a 18 year old in our class. He was much bigger than all the rest of us and bully. He should have been shown the curb.

That's a failure of your school administrators and school board to act, not a failure of the rules in place (or at least under Oklahoma law, it wouldn't be).


And god help you if you get some loud mouth parent who thinks their brat can do no wrong. The ones who threaten everyone and make the spineless administrators bow to their every wish. They cannot look the parent in the eye and say "if you do not like it here then go somewhere else". A principal is not going to do that and they are more worried about CYA than doing the right thing for the schools.

Again, that's a failure at the local level. What's the nationwide scaleable solution to spineless administrators? ***-kicking-cyborgs-with-a-take-no-sh**-attitude-school-administrators?


As far as charter schools go in Delaware they operate by a totally different set of rules and are run more like private schools. I really think letting schools thin the heard so to speak and create an environment where kids have to compete for access is a good thing. Our best and brightest should have access to the best academic programs the nation has to offer.

We have magnet schools for that in Oklahoma, and only really in OKC and Tulsa. I'm a bit torn on that one though. Here in OKC, a magnet which admits students based on a lottery, including special needs children, is getting as good or better results than the magnet school located less than a mile away. High achieving students help, but so do excellent teachers and administrators who in turn expect great things from their students. As far as these students having access to the best academic programs the nation has to offer, we're talking about children who won't be shaped by where they attend high school so much as they will be shaped by higher ed. The mission for schools here is to provide their students with a base of knowledge which can translate into higher ed.

Where we should be spending the most money is on educating the poor and special ed children and counseling them into career paths where they can actually earn a halfway decent living.


My wife taught special education for a year and could not stand it. All the kids wanted to do was to have babies and flip burgers. Ya know what? The world needs burger flippers so let them have at it.

Yuck. That's more of a commentary on the fact that these kids know that if they fail to achieve anything, there's a government safety net for them. I'm in favor of entitlement reform, but that's another discussion.


The US is in a global market and one of our biggest problems right now is that our educational system is not aligned with our national needs. We need engineers, software designers, innovators and people who can work in the high tech world of today. I actually like the German model for education where kids are identified early on and channeled into vocational schools or schools with rigorous academic studies. I also like their models of apprenticeship and the value of highly skilled labor. If you talk to recruiters they will tell you that many of the kids they recruit have to be retrained and/or educated. Somewhere we are failing and I do not think everyone has all the answers.

Well, Common Core is attempting to address that issue. STEM classes are now more greatly emphasized at the expense of the fine and liberal arts. I think that's a huge mistake. As far as the German model, I wonder how I would have been handled in such a system. Early on, I tested in the 99 percentile for darn near everything. I also had an IEP and was a huge classroom disruption to the point where I spent enough time in the principal's office that we had running games of chess. That said, structurally, our schools are very slow evolving creatures.

[Midtowner]

pretty sure in my district that if they are special ed and are expelled we have to provide home services for them..

and YES the mouth breathers are in the same class as the college bound at the lower level.

Yes, the school has to provide the same services to the expelled student, only at home. Whether the student avails themselves of those services or transfers to an online charter school or enrolls at the local charter specializing in at-risk youth is another thing.

And mouth breathers being in the same class as the college bound is a local structural issue and an indication of poor curriculum design. It's not surprising. In urban areas, administrators (except at the CEO level) are a fine example of the Peter Principle in action--they're promoted until they reach a position which they are incompetent to perform and because of the structure's unwillingness to demote, transfer or terminate incompetent administrators, there they remain. This has historically been a HUGE problem in OKCPS.

[Midtowner]

pretty dead on DD. I will add that we are so immersed in "everyone gets an award" the Trophy Generation that there is not a true distinguish(ment) for being the best...in urban schools that is.

In urban schools, you often have the exact opposite--a culture which vilifies success rather than lauding it.

That said, we're doing nothing to combat that cultural perception.

[diverdog]

That's a failure of your school administrators and school board to act, not a failure of the rules in place (or at least under Oklahoma law, it wouldn't be).



Again, that's a failure at the local level. What's the nationwide scaleable solution to spineless administrators? ***-kicking-cyborgs-with-a-take-no-sh**-attitude-school-administrators?



We have magnet schools for that in Oklahoma, and only really in OKC and Tulsa. I'm a bit torn on that one though. Here in OKC, a magnet which admits students based on a lottery, including special needs children, is getting as good or better results than the magnet school located less than a mile away. High achieving students help, but so do excellent teachers and administrators who in turn expect great things from their students. As far as these students having access to the best academic programs the nation has to offer, we're talking about children who won't be shaped by where they attend high school so much as they will be shaped by higher ed. The mission for schools here is to provide their students with a base of knowledge which can translate into higher ed.

Where we should be spending the most money is on educating the poor and special ed children and counseling them into career paths where they can actually earn a halfway decent living.



Yuck. That's more of a commentary on the fact that these kids know that if they fail to achieve anything, there's a government safety net for them. I'm in favor of entitlement reform, but that's another discussion.



Well, Common Core is attempting to address that issue. STEM classes are now more greatly emphasized at the expense of the fine and liberal arts. I think that's a huge mistake. As far as the German model, I wonder how I would have been handled in such a system. Early on, I tested in the 99 percentile for darn near everything. I also had an IEP and was a huge classroom disruption to the point where I spent enough time in the principal's office that we had running games of chess. That said, structurally, our schools are very slow evolving creatures.

Mid:

There is theory and reality. In theory we have everything in place to deal with problem kids. In reality it does not work they way it is suppose to and it has a lot to do with not only the school boards but the interference from politicians. (Oh and I should add that is one of the biggest advantages private schools have over state schools is that they are free from the political process).

My wife has taught for 18 years and some of the stories I hear from her just makes me want to cringe. I think teachers as some of the best people on earth. I could never do the job because I am too demanding and too strict to deal with the little buggers. What we force our teachers to deal with is criminal and I think it is one reason our education system is in such dire straights. I am also in agreement with Jeepman on equal outcomes and a drive to the bottom instead of the top. We need to go to year round schools, pay our teachers more, demand more from parents, get rid of equal outcomes and all that feel good chit and get teachers out of being baby sitters. If it were up to me I would go to the country that has the best educational system, steal their administrators and revamp our schools from top to bottom.

[OU68]

Went to a private school in Tulsa, first assembly of the year the headmaster always said: "If you don't like it here, please go to the office and have someone call your parents. We have people waiting to be admitted." Public education has become a mushy, social experiment - you don't fix the dysfunctional family structure with the schools. Wish I had an answer, just don't and I'm afraid of the direction our country seems to be hell-bent on taking.

[Midtowner]

There is theory and reality. In theory we have everything in place to deal with problem kids. In reality it does not work they way it is suppose to and it has a lot to do with not only the school boards but the interference from politicians. (Oh and I should add that is one of the biggest advantages private schools have over state schools is that they are free from the political process).

So what we're trying now is to adopt the Core Curriculum. Of course, this has the Tea Party folks going ape, but refusing to offer any concrete alternatives.


My wife has taught for 18 years and some of the stories I hear from her just makes me want to cringe. I think teachers as some of the best people on earth. I could never do the job because I am too demanding and too strict to deal with the little buggers. What we force our teachers to deal with is criminal and I think it is one reason our education system is in such dire straights. I am also in agreement with Jeepman on equal outcomes and a drive to the bottom instead of the top. We need to go to year round schools, pay our teachers more, demand more from parents, get rid of equal outcomes and all that feel good chit and get teachers out of being baby sitters. If it were up to me I would go to the country that has the best educational system, steal their administrators and revamp our schools from top to bottom.

The only thing administrators really have to fear is the school board. The school board might feel it has to be responsive to outside political demands, so they might be hard on the administrators from that standpoint. There's just not a strong history of administrators being removed by unhappy parents. Administrators are where I see a lot of the problem. We've now really empowered these folks to run their schools the way they want to in Oklahoma by opening up the number of causes available to terminate even tenured teachers in Oklahoma. So when an unrealistic and agitated parent calls and wants ridiculous accommodations for their snowflake, an administrator should endeavor to follow the law, but also know when to tell that parent to shove it up their a$$.

Professionally speaking, administrators shouldn't be punished if an unreasonable parent files a lawsuit. They should only be punished when that parent files the lawsuit and wins. School boards need to stand behind their principals and expect them to be professional (or replace them). Principals need to stand behind their teachers and expect them to be professional (or replace them). If at any level, you get a bunch of namby pamby wusses, the whole structure fails to function.

That's why whenever I hear these anecdotal failures, they are local problems.

[Curly Bill]

School administrators are too much like politicians - they do whatever is needed to keep the largest number of people happy. This means passing along little Johnny, even when little Johnny needs and deserves to fail.

[Midtowner]

School administrators are too much like politicians - they do whatever is needed to keep the largest number of people happy. This means passing along little Johnny, even when little Johnny needs and deserves to fail.

And now it comes full circle to the "it takes a village" concept.

If society as a whole places no stake in holding administrators accountable when they do the easy thing instead of the right thing, public education will not work.

Look at a city like Edmond. Do you think the city would be up in arms about an administrator giving the boot to a kid who simply refused to comply with school rules? Hell no, they'd be 100% supportive. If, on the other hand, one activist parent gets upset at the way their snowflake is treated and is able to rabble rouse, the rabble deserves what it gets.

What's it like in rural school districts? Do administrators put up with crap from parents?

[Curly Bill]

Administrators put up with crap from parents everywhere. Most administrtors turn in whatever intestinal fortitude they might have had when they get their admin certificate.

[Midtowner]

Administrators put up with crap from parents everywhere. Most administrtors turn in whatever intestinal fortitude they might have had when they get their admin certificate.

Not everywhere. I'd just think with a smaller town, the dynamic would be a little different because folks tend to know that whatever parent is crying about her snowflake's failing grade in biology disqualifying him from playing on the football team and to assign the proper level of skepticism to, say, Edmond, where no one knows anyone and school board elections involve voting for the candidate with the prettiest campaign sign.

[East Coast Bias]

And for all the doom and gloom and disdain we see here good things do come out of the public schools. My wife gets calls and emails monthly from ex-students praising her for the impact she has had on their lives. The quality of teachers cannot be underestimated. We need to pay teachers more, get the parents more involved, and really push the students that want to learn. The kids now are more interested in their cell phones, video games and sex than in reading the classics. I believe the teachers just get beat down from dealing with all of that every day and get little support from the parents...

[REDREX]

We need to pay GOOD teachers more

[Soonerjeepman]

In urban schools, you often have the exact opposite--a culture which vilifies success rather than lauding it.

That said, we're doing nothing to combat that cultural perception.

unfortunately us lowly teachers don't have much to say...it's all the admins. Most every teacher agrees we give too much.

[SicEmBaylor]

Public education is nothing more than public indoctrination taught by, in many cases, individuals who couldn't find their *** without a mirror attached to a stick. I don't want to offend anyone here, necessarily, but public school teachers rank somewhere around journalists in my opinion. A big part of the problem is the "general education" degree. It's useless and is like an official certificate confirming idiocy. The best teachers have degrees in the subject they're teaching.

I would not want to home school my children (if I had some) because I've been around enough home school kids to know they're weird as hell, but I have absolutely no problem with parents who choose to home school their children. In fact, I completely understand why they would do it. If my local public school were halfway decent then I'd have no problem sending my kids to a public school over a private school, but in general I'd prefer private.

Anyone who sends their kids to a public school should do so with a lot of care and caution. Public education should be treated merely as a supplement to the education they receive at home. Much of what is taught in public school is just flat out wrong or so sanitized or so politically correct that it bears little resemblance to the truth.

The problem with public education is not funding. The problem is administrative bloat, and it is an American cultural problem. As a culture, we simply do not stress education the way other nations do. We don't teach our kids at home and outside the classroom to the degree that other nations do. The solution isn't more money -- the solution is to try and change the culture. And there is no way to improve public education to the point where we catch up. We have to encourage parents to embrace the education of their children as part of their responsibility as parents (completely the opposite of that idiotic MSNBC host's idea).

For the record, I oppose all public education. I think the entire public education system should be dismantled entirely and the government should be out of the education business......period. They do a lousy *** job and it costs taxpayers a fortune for mediocre results at best. The university system is another matter entirely and is successful, but I am concerned that American universities have been "dumbing down" their standards for decades.

[Soonerjeepman]

geeze you are the dumbass...lol. Do you know anything about teacher certification and education? Not thinkin...

[Midtowner]

unfortunately us lowly teachers don't have much to say...it's all the admins. Most every teacher agrees we give too much.

In OKC, we're finally figuring that out with the administrators. Lots of urban schools are cleaning house, becoming charter schools, etc. As an urban district, OKC is going to be a good example of what is possible.

[diverdog]

School administrators are too much like politicians - they do whatever is needed to keep the largest number of people happy. This means passing along little Johnny, even when little Johnny needs and deserves to fail.

holy chit. We agree on something after all. :)

[diverdog]

geeze you are the dumbass...lol. Do you know anything about teacher certification and education? Not thinkin...


Apparently not. My wife is in school all the time. She has a masters plus 100 hours. Currently she is a French teacher. Years ago when she was seeking multiple certifications and they wanted her to take a few business classes to get certified to teach business. The problem was she had spent six years on Wall Street working for JP Morgan. Finally they realized her work experience, Finance and Accounting degrees from a great business school counted for something. So all she had to take was a class on how to teach key boarding.

i do not know a single teacher who has a "general education degree".

[OU_Sooners75]

I work at a high school...and I can attest that the kids today know they can manipulate the schools. They know they can do whatever they wish and the schools can do very little about it, as long as it doesn't include bringing a weapon to school.

And midtowner, contrary to what you want to think, it goes well beyond local levels.

[Curly Bill]

Never heard of a "general education degree" myself???

[OU_Sooners75]

In urban schools, you often have the exact opposite--a culture which vilifies success rather than lauding it.

That said, we're doing nothing to combat that cultural perception.


Yeah, because you know this from experience?

You know what they say about a know-it-all right?

[cleller]

School administrators are too much like politicians - they do whatever is needed to keep the largest number of people happy. This means passing along little Johnny, even when little Johnny needs and deserves to fail.

At one time the largest number of people were hard working, disciplined parents and students who want the kids to be well educated. Now, at many of the larger problem schools the kids run the show, only involving their parent, (or rarely parentS) when they're got a gripe.

The stupid kids don't give a crap about anything because they were raised to holler until you're given something. Its only going to get worse. In big cities you'll have to either go to a magnet school or private school to have a shot at a decent education.

[Curly Bill]

At one time the largest number of people were hard working, disciplined parents and students who want the kids to be well educated. Now, at many of the larger problem schools the kids run the show, only involving their parent, (or rarely parentS) when they're got a gripe.

The stupid kids don't give a crap about anything because they were raised to holler until you're given something. Its only going to get worse. In big cities you'll have to either go to a magnet school or private school to have a shot at a decent education.

Yup

[SicEmBaylor]

Never heard of a "general education degree" myself???

You've never heard of a bachelor's degree in education???

[Midtowner]

Yeah, because you know this from experience?

You know what they say about a know-it-all right?

My wife has taught in inner-city schools for almost a decade. So yeah.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

So what we're trying now is to adopt the Core Curriculum. Of course, this has the Tea Party folks going ape, but refusing to offer any concrete alternatives.



The only thing administrators really have to fear is the school board. The school board might feel it has to be responsive to outside political demands, so they might be hard on the administrators from that standpoint. There's just not a strong history of administrators being removed by unhappy parents. Administrators are where I see a lot of the problem. We've now really empowered these folks to run their schools the way they want to in Oklahoma by opening up the number of causes available to terminate even tenured teachers in Oklahoma. So when an unrealistic and agitated parent calls and wants ridiculous accommodations for their snowflake, an administrator should endeavor to follow the law, but also know when to tell that parent to shove it up their a$$.

Professionally speaking, administrators shouldn't be punished if an unreasonable parent files a lawsuit. They should only be punished when that parent files the lawsuit and wins. School boards need to stand behind their principals and expect them to be professional (or replace them). Principals need to stand behind their teachers and expect them to be professional (or replace them). If at any level, you get a bunch of namby pamby wusses, the whole structure fails to function.

That's why whenever I hear these anecdotal failures, they are local problems.

These are local problems that exist all over this country. In my mind that makes them systemic. Schools like where your wife teaches exist in spite of the administration they are burdened with. The OKCPS admin sucked when I was in school at US Grant 20 years ago and I'm sure it still sucks.

Since Katrina, there's been an interesting expirament in public education in New Orleans. Basically everything here is open enrollment. So if parents want their kids to go to the better schools they have to actually do some leg work and seek out those schools and enroll their kids. There's always going to be failing schools in NO though because so many parents don't give a crap. But at least the ones that do care have a chance to get in better schools.

[Midtowner]

These are local problems that exist all over this country. In my mind that makes them systemic. Schools like where your wife teaches exist in spite of the administration they are burdened with. The OKCPS admin sucked when I was in school at US Grant 20 years ago and I'm sure it still sucks.

OKCPS is finally starting to eliminate a lot of the bad administrators and it is making a difference. My wife's school is a charter, so aside from having to get renewed by OKCPS every so often, they have their own school board and their principal doubles as their quasi superintendent.


Since Katrina, there's been an interesting expirament in public education in New Orleans. Basically everything here is open enrollment. So if parents want their kids to go to the better schools they have to actually do some leg work and seek out those schools and enroll their kids. There's always going to be failing schools in NO though because so many parents don't give a crap. But at least the ones that do care have a chance to get in better schools.

I think that's great. Public education according to free market principles is fine with me so long as we have truth in advertising--i.e., a system which can reliably inform parents as to the quality of a school's curriculum. Otherwise, I'd fear for-profit schools would swoop in and really dumb things down to make a quick buck.

[Soonerjeepman]

You've never heard of a bachelor's degree in education???

it's Bachelor of Science degree in Elementary Education (k-6 now) or Secondary Education in which they are required to take many classes in their major, math, english, etc. For a secondary certification you almost have a degree in your field with education classes to boot.

Ele Education classes have you taking methods classes (different ways to teach the subject) in all areas, math, reading, social studies, science, etc.

When I got my degree in 1986 it wasn't super hard, but wasn't basket weaving as well. Over the last 10 years it's gotten a lot tougher. Student teaching is over a year instead of a semester...each college is different but it's not an easy degree.

Also in 1987 they created the PPST (pre professional skills test) and the NTE (national teachers exam) both were given nationally and you had to pass to get certifies. PPST dealt with basic skills, math, reading, writing, science, for me it went to 9th grade level...the NTE dealt with Education law, situations, etc.

Obviously you know all the ends and outs of the process so please continue. Are there bad teachers?..yes, just like every walk of life, and my kids who went to a suburban "great school district" had some of them...teachers are NOT evil folks waiting to indoctrinate kids into mindless zombies...

[Midtowner]

To be fair, standards in Oklahoma are just a tad lower. Our teachers take an Oklahoma subject matter examination which is quite a bit easier than PRAXIS, and there are alternative certification routes as well. You still have to go through one year of observation. Teaching is NOT an easy job. My wife teaches five different subjects and is her school's webmaster as well. She spends a lot of weekends at contests and honors programs fro her kids. She works a lot more than I do for about 1/5 the pay.

Sure, teaching is easy if the teacher doesn't do their job and no one holds them accountable. That's why we're slowly getting rid of tenure and empowering administrators to get rid of bad teachers. Once the ball is in the administrators' court, their school's success or failure is on them.

[okie52]

it's Bachelor of Science degree in Elementary Education (k-6 now) or Secondary Education in which they are required to take many classes in their major, math, english, etc. For a secondary certification you almost have a degree in your field with education classes to boot.

Ele Education classes have you taking methods classes (different ways to teach the subject) in all areas, math, reading, social studies, science, etc.

When I got my degree in 1986 it wasn't super hard, but wasn't basket weaving as well. Over the last 10 years it's gotten a lot tougher. Student teaching is over a year instead of a semester...each college is different but it's not an easy degree.

Also in 1987 they created the PPST (pre professional skills test) and the NTE (national teachers exam) both were given nationally and you had to pass to get certifies. PPST dealt with basic skills, math, reading, writing, science, for me it went to 9th grade level...the NTE dealt with Education law, situations, etc.

Obviously you know all the ends and outs of the process so please continue. Are there bad teachers?..yes, just like every walk of life, and my kids who went to a suburban "great school district" had some of them...teachers are NOT evil folks waiting to indoctrinate kids into mindless zombies...

I am a firm believer that the key ingredient in most students development is parental involvement and, of course, some desire on the part of the student. I'm not discounting teacher's roles because they can be great motivators as well as possess the skills to properly instruct their students.

I have put many kids and grandkids through Edmond Schools. The Edmond school system, on the whole, provides a good foundation for most kids.

That said I have one kid that graduated from Vanderbilt and he constantly states that public education doesn't prepare you for a university like Vanderbilt. I've always told him that it may have not been a Casady but he still got into Vandy.

[Soonerjeepman]

The prob on tenure Mid is any principal can be a real issue. I know any other job a person can be fired for any reason, usually it's job performance. Which leads me to the fact that our "product" is a living person with all kinds of influences that we can not control. Therefor if my "product" is poor (low test scores, low graduation rate, etc) not due to my efforts or ability but due to outside influences then what is my hope in my job? I'm not opposed to not having tenure...just a slippery slope to put an administrator in charge of that based on test scores of kids we have no control over whether they are in our class or not. We are like little businesses in our classrooms but do NOT have the ability to hire or fire our employees (students).

Guess it'd be different if I was in charge of making boxes and the boxes fell apart...or I didn't make enough...that's on me or the workers under me if I'm the manager, or the supplier. All of which can be dealt with.

Just another perspective.

[Soonerjeepman]

I am a firm believer that the key ingredient in most students development is parental involvement and, of course, some desire on the part of the student. I'm not discounting teacher's roles because they can be great motivators as well as possess the skills to properly instruct their students.

I have put many kids and grandkids through Edmond Schools. The Edmond school system, on the whole, provides a good foundation for most kids.

That said I have one kid that graduated from Vanderbilt and he constantly states that public education doesn't prepare you for a university like Vanderbilt. I've always told him that it may have not been a Casady but he still got into Vandy.

yup

[Curly Bill]

You've never heard of a bachelor's degree in education???

Yes, but most if not all states require you to be certified in certain fields. You don't just get a "bachelors of education" and go teach.

[OU_Sooners75]

My wife has taught in inner-city schools for almost a decade. So yeah.

You you go off second hand knowledge and present it as fact.

And I seriously doubt you're married by how ****ing retarded you are!

[OU_Sooners75]

OKCPS is finally starting to eliminate a lot of the bad administrators and it is making a difference. My wife's school is a charter, so aside from having to get renewed by OKCPS every so often, they have their own school board and their principal doubles as their quasi superintendent.

Again, you act as if you are speaking from experience in this field...and you aren't. Eliminate a lot of bad administrators? When was it the administrators fault for the teachers being lazy or the kids not caring? And how do you know a lot of them "bad" administrators are being eliminated? Let me guess, from wha your wife says...but yet she teaches at one school....so let me guess now you have a bunch of friends that teach throughout OKC?

[olevetonahill]

You you go off second hand knowledge and present it as fact.

And I seriously doubt you're married by how ****ing retarded you are!

Bro, he even breeds, why just the other day he said he would have his old lady have an abortion if it would save his ****in dog.

[OU_Sooners75]

Bro, he even breeds, why just the other day he said he would have his old lady have an abortion if it would save his ****in dog.

Im pretty sure his blow up doll can't breed, so he is talking about the kids he drops off at the pool every day.

I just pray I never meet the idiot in person...and if I do, I pray he doesn't act a fool like he does here. And then I pray God grants me the courage to just walk away from his dumbass. Because for as long as I have visited message boards, he is the only one I will seriously considering replacing his teeth with my knuckles....lol

[olevetonahill]

Im pretty sure his blow up doll can't breed, so he is talking about the kids he drops off at the pool every day.

I just pray I never meet the idiot in person...and if I do, I pray he doesn't act a fool like he does here. And then I pray God grants me the courage to just walk away from his dumbass. Because for as long as I have visited message boards, he is the only one I will seriously considering replacing his teeth with my knuckles....lol

i truly believe, him an i could sit down and drank a few brews together, course about every 3rd drank er so I'd have to just reach over and slap him silly.:unconscious:

[Midtowner]

Again, you act as if you are speaking from experience in this field...and you aren't. Eliminate a lot of bad administrators? When was it the administrators fault for the teachers being lazy or the kids not caring? And how do you know a lot of them "bad" administrators are being eliminated? Let me guess, from wha your wife says...but yet she teaches at one school....so let me guess now you have a bunch of friends that teach throughout OKC?

My examples are OKCPS specific. In OKC Public Schools over the last few decades, they have promoted nearly all (maybe all) of their middle management from within and have not held those people responsible for poor performance or poor performance of their subordinates, so success of individual principals was pretty hit or miss for a long time. The new CEO has made some very positive changes, here recently, approving John Marshall's charter application, gutting Douglass, etc.

And yes, it is ALWAYS the principal's fault that their employees are not performing. What a silly question to ask.

And yes, I know lots of folks who teach throughout OKC. Especially in the music area. I had a music scholarship in college and maintain connections with many of the folks I played with.

I also know the law because I keep up with it. Oklahoma in the past couple of legislative sessions has pretty much gutted teacher tenure and given administrators a lot more leeway in being able to recommend teachers to be fired or non-renewed. Therefore, the crutch of administrators pointing fingers at bad teachers they can't get rid of is going away.

[SicEmBaylor]

it's Bachelor of Science degree in Elementary Education (k-6 now) or Secondary Education in which they are required to take many classes in their major, math, english, etc. For a secondary certification you almost have a degree in your field with education classes to boot.

Ele Education classes have you taking methods classes (different ways to teach the subject) in all areas, math, reading, social studies, science, etc.

When I got my degree in 1986 it wasn't super hard, but wasn't basket weaving as well. Over the last 10 years it's gotten a lot tougher. Student teaching is over a year instead of a semester...each college is different but it's not an easy degree.

Also in 1987 they created the PPST (pre professional skills test) and the NTE (national teachers exam) both were given nationally and you had to pass to get certifies. PPST dealt with basic skills, math, reading, writing, science, for me it went to 9th grade level...the NTE dealt with Education law, situations, etc.

Obviously you know all the ends and outs of the process so please continue. Are there bad teachers?..yes, just like every walk of life, and my kids who went to a suburban "great school district" had some of them...teachers are NOT evil folks waiting to indoctrinate kids into mindless zombies...


Yes, but most if not all states require you to be certified in certain fields. You don't just get a "bachelors of education" and go teach.

Certification is considerably different than having a full degree in the subject you're teaching. From what I understand, most states offer a certification path for teachers who do not have a degree in the field they wish to teach.

In any case, SJM, I do not think teachers are "evil." I think they're teaching from government approved text books with a government approved curriculum. I think they have to teach to the lowest common denominator which isn't fair or particularly beneficial to the rest of their students. I think they're expected to remain politically correct. The issue isn't that they're bad people -- I adored nearly every single one of my teachers growing up. They're wonderful people who I still regularly communicate with.

It isn't the individual; it's the system.

[Soonerjeepman]

For ele yes, I do not have a degree in math...or reading...or social studies...due to the fact I'd have to have 5 degrees. Secondary Education is close to a degree in that field as possible, from what I remember.

Not sure I understand your point on certification....If I wanted to teach Math in HS I have to have that certification which requires 30+ college hours (or more) of Math. I can't teach what I don't have certification in. My district did have a program that allowed folks with degrees (business, math, etc) but no teaching certificate or methods classes to get those through a Masters program while they taught.

I was the mentor of one guy...been in business his whole life..older (50+) decided he wanted to "relaxed" romanticized job of teaching...barely hung on for the year.. Bitched about lack of supplies, dealing with lack of parental involvement, having to follow a curriculum, etc. Definitely wasn't what he thought.

I've seen parents TRY to be in charge of 10 cub scouts and couldn't handle it, let along 300+ kids in an assembly. Teachers are born...some made but few.

As far as WHAT we teach...what gov approved? state? local? fed? What is wrong with what we are teaching? Have you looked at a textbook lately? I agree people need to be involved in the decision process, go run for your local school board, get involved.

[Midtowner]

Certification is considerably different than having a full degree in the subject you're teaching. From what I understand, most states offer a certification path for teachers who do not have a degree in the field they wish to teach.

In any case, SJM, I do not think teachers are "evil." I think they're teaching from government approved text books with a government approved curriculum. I think they have to teach to the lowest common denominator which isn't fair or particularly beneficial to the rest of their students. I think they're expected to remain politically correct. The issue isn't that they're bad people -- I adored nearly every single one of my teachers growing up. They're wonderful people who I still regularly communicate with.

It isn't the individual; it's the system.

What aspects of the approved curriculum do you specifically object to?

[MR2-Sooner86]

He was probably not much of a deep thinker. Farmers of the past didn't have to have any sort of real formal education. It wasn't necessary. Farmers today have to understand everything from business to chemicals to the science of seed and pest control. Learning that could happen outside of an ag education, but it certainly wouldn't be the most efficient way to go about things. An illiterate farmer 50-60 years ago could do just fine. Today, he'd be screwed.

Obviously you don't know any farmers, have worked on a farm or know anything about farming in general. I worked for a farmer in high school that was *gasp* home schooled and he did well enough to buy a new Dodge diesel, with cash, every year because he could.

You apparently didn't read the article. It wasn't talking about removing fat children from homes, just providing services to parents to ensure the children were being properly cared for in most cases, but in cases such as a 12-year-old weighing 400 pounds, that would probably look a lot like child abuse/neglect. I can definitely buy into that.

Child abuse and neglect? Uh huh.

I went to private school for the vast majority of my educational career. I learned plenty about the Bible and about the history of the Catholic Church and about the great philosophers of the Church and of their philosophies. Aside from that, I learned the same crap everyone else does, Algebra, read a lot of classical literature, etc. No, we didn't have a class covering the sovereign citizen and how to be a complete selfish sociopath in society. Totally missed that one. Woops.

So you never took classes on the Constituion and the philosophies that founded our country. Got ya. Funny though how it was ok for you to go to private school but you look down at anybody who decides to do the same.

Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort. It's just true that the government can attack problems with economies of scale which no other entity can realize. Further, the government is the only sort of entity outside of religious institutions (which in late years exist only to glorify themselves) which can act with truly altruistic motives. And yes, many are too stupid or selfish to teach their kids, so someone either has to do it now or warehouse them later in prison.

And there it is. Statist never disappoint. Private schools or people homeschooling their kids have a biased agenda according to Midtowner. If we just put our faith in the fair, compassionate and just state, like Midtowner does, we wouldn't have our heads filled with what he sees as nonsense.
I could probably meltdown the server posting stories people in here would be against. Midtowner though would tell those people to shut up because the state knows what's best and they're simpleton idiots.
He said many, meaning a a large majority he looks down on, are too stupid and not as smart as him. Therefor the state much take over.

This is a problem for you? Do you not have any sort of allegiance to your country? It's no more "statist worship" than the below.

http://www.aoshs.org/images/MakiFlagSalute.jpg

Ah yes, allegiance to the state. No, I don't pledge that. Besides it's not pledging allegiance to a country but a flag which is simple idolatry. Not to mention it was written by a socialist, a racist one at that, who wanted kids to pledge allegiance to the state and get a sense of nationality. Pretty much what Hitler did, which is why the same salute was used.
I'm also glad you posted that picture. Know why we do that now? In 1942 we got pictures and videos of Germans doing the exact same thing. It's hard to fight a war when our school children are doing the exact same thing as the enemy. So it was changed to the hand over the heart.
I know, damn those facts.
Besides if I pledge to anything it's the Constituion. Something you sadly scoff at.

And a large number of people believe we are being governed by lizard people. So what's your point?

School kids are told stuff, made to memorize and regurgitate it. Seeing the above makes them short circuit. They're not taught to think or actually solve problems. They're just told how others have solved problems.

Notice he completely ignored where he and his statist bird of a feather were saying the same things.

Midtowner mocks indiviuality with the terms "sovereign citizen" and "selfish sociopath in society."
Midtowner states his 100% faith in the state when he says, "which can act with truly altruistic motives."

"All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all."
"We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all."
"[State-run] education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed."

Midtowner, like the men quoted, believes in the confiscation of private wealth, state run institutions and hates the classic liberal view of individual privacy and liberty.

TL;DR
Statist still gonna state.

[cleller]

Is there some kind of status to be gained for using the word "statist" the most around here? Or is it a new statute?

You're a bunch of statist sadists.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner mocks indiviuality with the terms "sovereign citizen" and "selfish sociopath in society."
Midtowner states his 100% faith in the state when he says, "which can act with truly altruistic motives."

Whereas governments exist to serve the people (ideally), corporations exist to serve the shareholders (again, ideally). There are many things a collective can do that an individual cannot. For example, attending to child abuse and neglect.


"All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all."
"We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all."
"[State-run] education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed."

And of course you have to assume here that Joseph Stalin and Janet Barresi are on the same page where it comes to education. Sure, it's a big 'ol government conspiracy to corrupt your children and put 'em on welfare, teach 'em the world is round, that evolution happened, etc.

[OU_Sooners75]

My examples are OKCPS specific. In OKC Public Schools over the last few decades, they have promoted nearly all (maybe all) of their middle management from within and have not held those people responsible for poor performance or poor performance of their subordinates, so success of individual principals was pretty hit or miss for a long time. The new CEO has made some very positive changes, here recently, approving John Marshall's charter application, gutting Douglass, etc.

And yes, it is ALWAYS the principal's fault that their employees are not performing. What a silly question to ask.

And yes, I know lots of folks who teach throughout OKC. Especially in the music area. I had a music scholarship in college and maintain connections with many of the folks I played with.

I also know the law because I keep up with it. Oklahoma in the past couple of legislative sessions has pretty much gutted teacher tenure and given administrators a lot more leeway in being able to recommend teachers to be fired or non-renewed. Therefore, the crutch of administrators pointing fingers at bad teachers they can't get rid of is going away.

You really have no idea how a school works do you?

[diverdog]

For ele yes, I do not have a degree in math...or reading...or social studies...due to the fact I'd have to have 5 degrees. Secondary Education is close to a degree in that field as possible, from what I remember.

Not sure I understand your point on certification....If I wanted to teach Math in HS I have to have that certification which requires 30+ college hours (or more) of Math. I can't teach what I don't have certification in. My district did have a program that allowed folks with degrees (business, math, etc) but no teaching certificate or methods classes to get those through a Masters program while they taught.

I was the mentor of one guy...been in business his whole life..older (50+) decided he wanted to "relaxed" romanticized job of teaching...barely hung on for the year.. Bitched about lack of supplies, dealing with lack of parental involvement, having to follow a curriculum, etc. Definitely wasn't what he thought.

I've seen parents TRY to be in charge of 10 cub scouts and couldn't handle it, let along 300+ kids in an assembly. Teachers are born...some made but few.

As far as WHAT we teach...what gov approved? state? local? fed? What is wrong with what we are teaching? Have you looked at a textbook lately? I agree people need to be involved in the decision process, go run for your local school board, get involved.

That was almost me. LOL

I had a real eye opener when I was a Den leader in Cub Scouts. Just to get them to listen I would take them outside and run them until they dropped. When they burned off enough of their energy they were a lot easier to teach. No way a teacher could do that every hour. Some of the kids I had were horrible discipline problems. They did not understand the word no.

[diverdog]

Notice he completely ignored where he and his statist bird of a feather were saying the same things.

Midtowner mocks indiviuality with the terms "sovereign citizen" and "selfish sociopath in society."
Midtowner states his 100% faith in the state when he says, "which can act with truly altruistic motives."

"All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all."
"We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all."
"[State-run] education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed."

Midtowner, like the men quoted, believes in the confiscation of private wealth, state run institutions and hates the classic liberal view of individual privacy and liberty.

TL;DR
Statist still gonna state.

What we got here fella's is an Ayn Rand follower.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Is there some kind of status to be gained for using the word "statist" the most around here? Or is it a new statute?

You're a bunch of statist sadists.

The terms "liberal" or "conservative" mask too much. "Statist" just cuts to the chase which is why I like to use it.


Whereas governments exist to serve the people (ideally)Governments serve themselves. All the state cares about is its own power, keeping it and expanding it whenever possible. Don't believe me then why were the X-ray machines put into airports that increased your risk of dying from cancer more than dying in a hijacked plane? Answer is the manufacture had ties to some politicians who got them a deal to install them. All in the name of "safety" and the "common good.", corporations exist to serve the shareholders (again, ideally)Corporations don't get their money from plunder with the use of force. Their money is made from voluntary exchanges. . There are many things a collective can do that an individual cannot.Not really but go ahead. For example, attending to child abuse and neglect.Define child abuse and neglect. Millions of people partake in gender mutilation (circumcision) which I find horrible. Do I have a right to go in and tell them not to do that? Some people think spanking is child abuse. You willing to make that call?

And of course you have to assume here that Joseph Stalin and Janet Barresi are on the same page where it comes to education. State control. People control. Sure, it's a big 'ol government conspiracy to corrupt your children and put 'em on welfare, teach 'em the world is round, that evolution happened, etc.

Here it is folks. If you don't send your child to government schools you're a religious nut wanting to teach him the earth is flat and Adam was the first man.

School: Americans Don’t Have Right to Bear Arms (http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-americans-dont-have-right-to-bear-arms.html)

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2013/01/08/f1/ac/Distribute_The_Wealth.JPG

Yup, no hidden agenda to make students just smart enough to become good little tax-paying units of the American government.

Oh well, statist gonna state.


What we got here fella's is an Ayn Rand follower.

Funny I never considered myself an Objectivist, she said libertarian minded folks bastardized her philosophy and I thought she was a poor author. She made a few good points but that's it.

I "follow" her about as much as I "follow" Hitchens or Hunter Thompson. I guess there are worse things to be in life than an Ayn Rand follower though, like a diverdog.