Many researchers taking a different view of pedophilia - LA Times

[Fraggle145]

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/14/local/la-me-pedophiles-20130115


Pedophilia once was thought to stem from psychological influences early in life. Now, many experts view it as a deep-rooted predisposition that does not change.
January 14, 2013|By Alan Zarembo, Los Angeles Times

As a young boy, Paul Christiano loved the world of girls — the way they danced, how their spindly bodies tumbled in gymnastics.

In adolescence, as other boys ogled classmates, he was troubled to find himself fantasizing about 7- to 11-year-olds.

His desires remained stuck in time as he neared adulthood. Despite a stable home life in suburban Chicago, he was tortured by urges he knew could land him in prison.

"For having these feelings, I was destined to become a monster," he said. "I was terrified."

In 1999, Christiano was caught buying child pornography. Now 36, he said he has never molested a child, but after five years of state-ordered therapy, the attraction remains.

"These people felt they could snuff out the desire, or shame me into denying it existed," he said. "But it's as intrinsic as the next person's heterosexuality."

In the laboratory, researchers are coming to the same conclusion.

Like many forms of sexual deviance, pedophilia once was thought to stem from psychological influences early in life. Now, many experts view it as a sexual orientation as immutable as heterosexuality or homosexuality. It is a deep-rooted predisposition — limited almost entirely to men — that becomes clear during puberty and does not change.

The best estimates are that between 1% and 5% of men are pedophiles, meaning that they have a dominant attraction to prepubescent children.

Not all pedophiles molest children. Nor are all child molesters pedophiles. Studies show that about half of all molesters are not sexually attracted to their victims. They often have personality disorders or violent streaks, and their victims are typically family members.

By contrast, pedophiles tend to think of children as romantic partners and look beyond immediate relatives. They include chronic abusers familiar from the headlines — Catholic priests, coaches and generations of Boy Scout leaders.

Other pedophiles are "good people who are struggling," said Dr. Fred Berlin, a psychiatrist who heads the Johns Hopkins Sexual Behaviors Consultation Unit. "They're tortured souls fighting like heck not to do this. We do virtually nothing in terms of reaching out to these folks. We drive it underground."

Studying criminals

Some of the new understanding of pedophilia comes from studies done on convicted sex criminals at the Center for Mental Health and Addiction in Toronto, where researchers use a procedure known as phallometry to identify men whose peak attraction is to children.

A man sits alone in a room viewing a series of images and listening to descriptions of various sexual acts with adults and children, male and female, while wearing a device that monitors blood flow to his penis.

Like men attracted to adults, nearly all pedophiles respond most strongly to one gender or the other — females far more often than males.

In searching for causes of pedophilia, researchers have largely dismissed the popular belief that abuse in childhood plays an important role. Studies show that few victims grow up to be abusers, and only about a third of offenders say they were molested.

Scientists at the Toronto center have uncovered a series of associations that suggest pedophilia has biological roots.

Among the most compelling findings is that 30% of pedophiles are left-handed or ambidextrous, triple the general rate. Because hand dominance is established through some combination of genetics and the environment of the womb, scientists see that association as a powerful indicator that something is different about pedophiles at birth.

"The only explanation is a physiological one," said James Cantor, a leader of the research.

Researchers have also determined that pedophiles are nearly an inch shorter on average than non-pedophiles and lag behind the average IQ by 10 points — discoveries that are consistent with developmental problems, whether before birth or in childhood.

In a 2008 study, Cantor's team conducted MRI brain scans on 65 pedophiles. Compared with men with criminal histories but no sex offenses, they had less white matter, the connective circuitry of the brain.

The evidence also points to what Cantor explained as "cross wiring": Seeing a child sets off the same neural response that men typically experience around an attractive woman.

More evidence of brain involvement comes from scattered examples of men with brain tumors or neurological diseases affecting inhibition.

In one case, a 40-year-old teacher in Virginia with no history of sexual deviance suddenly became interested in child pornography and was arrested for molesting his prepubescent stepdaughter.

The night before his sentencing, he showed up at an emergency room with a bad headache. An MRI revealed a tumor compressing his brain's right frontal lobe.

When the tumor was removed, his obsession faded, according to Dr. Russell Swerdlow, a neurologist on the case. A year later he again became sexually fixated on children. The tumor was growing back.

Swerdlow and others said the case suggests that the man's attraction to children may have always been present — the tumor simply took away the man's ability to control it.

Strong impulse control may help explain why some pedophiles never break the law.

Resisting desire

Most clinicians have given up on changing the sexual orientation of pedophiles in favor of teaching the how to resist their unacceptable desires.

Experts believe that pedophiles who also have a significant attraction to adults stand the best chance of staying out of trouble, because of their capacity for some sexual fulfillment that is legal. For others, injections of hormones to reduce sex drive are often recommended.

Most pedophiles, however, don't receive any attention until they've been arrested.

In an attempt to change that, sex researchers in Germany launched an unusual media campaign in 2005.

"You are not guilty because of your sexual desire, but you are responsible for your sexual behavior," said billboards urging them to contact the Institute of Sexology and Sexual Medicine in Berlin. "There is help! Don't become an offender!"

More than 1,700 men have responded to the print, television and online ads for Project Dunkelfeld — literally "dark field." As of August, 80 had completed a one-year program aimed at teaching them to control their impulses. Some received hormone shots. Compared to men still on the waiting list, those who received treatment were deemed less likely to molest children, according to an analysis of risk factors.

The German researchers promise patients confidentiality. About half of those assessed admitted to having already molested a child.

Though extolled by many researchers, the same program could not be conducted in the United States or many other countries, where clinicians and others are required by law to notify authorities if they suspect a child has been or could be harmed.

There have been some grass-roots efforts to bring pedophilia out of the shadows. Anton Schweighofer, a psychologist in British Columbia, said he recently referred one of his patients to Virtuous Pedophiles, an online support group for men who have never acted on their desires and want to keep it that way.

"I just don't want to get myself in trouble," said the man, a factory worker who spoke on the condition that he not be identified. "I really don't want to harm anybody."

For many pedophiles, a fundamental part of life will always be a shameful secret.

In his late teens, Christiano taught gymnastics and supervised hundreds of young girls. He fasted at work to distract himself from his erotic feelings.

"My hand never slipped," he said. "There were students I loved and adored. In a perfect world, I could sweep them off their feet and live happily ever after."

In this world, however, he has tried to commit suicide three times, he said.

In 1999, he stepped into a federal sting operation when he ordered pornography. He avoided prison but was permanently added to the Illinois sex offender registry.

Once lauded in the Chicago press for his promise as a dance choreographer, Christiano now lives off unemployment, help from his parents and low-paying jobs. He has lost apartments and jobs because of his felony.

"PEDO PIECE OF GARBAGE," read one of many emails he received after an activist group posted a notice about his case online.

His mother, Jennifer Christiano, said that as far back as she could remember, he had always been different from other boys — an odd and creative soul who loved to perform and seemed to worship his female classmates.

"I can't tell you how hard it is," she said. "He's my only child. He'll never truly be happy. He'll never have someone he can truly love and who can love him back."



How I stumbled across this I have no idea, anyway... If it was my kid I'd kill them plain and simple. But if they cant change it and are trying to do something about it - I'm not sure how I'd react to the person - thoughts?

[Soonerjeepman]

I do think the mind is a very powerful part of our body..but with that said.

My GUT reaction? It's another push to "normalize" these behaviors, including homosexuality.

If this is the push then all of these deviant acts are "normal" for that person...bestiality, necrophilia, etc. Just my 2 cents worth.

[C&CDean]

Sexual deviancy is sexual deviancy. Some deviants don't have victims...per se. Some do. Either way, it ain't right. No matter how much those with issues try and tell us how normal their sexual appetites are.

I believe everyone has some deviancy in them. Some choose to resist temptation/urges, some don't. Really quite simple.

[jkjsooner]

I do think the mind is a very powerful part of our body..but with that said.

My GUT reaction? It's another push to "normalize" these behaviors, including homosexuality.

If this is the push then all of these deviant acts are "normal" for that person...bestiality, necrophilia, etc. Just my 2 cents worth.

I don't think this is a push to normalize behaviors. Many people are biologically incapable of having empathy but that doesn't mean that we won't lock them up when the sociopath breaks laws nor does it mean that we just excuse their behavior.

That being said, it is up to the person to control their behavior. I'm not going to hold it against someone for their desires as long as they never act on them. I wouldn't let my child around them though.

[Midtowner]

I do think the mind is a very powerful part of our body..but with that said.

My GUT reaction? It's another push to "normalize" these behaviors, including homosexuality.

If this is the push then all of these deviant acts are "normal" for that person...bestiality, necrophilia, etc. Just my 2 cents worth.

No one except fundy wackadoos and maybe the DSM from 1955 group homosexuality abnormal. There is always going to be the line in the sand which requires all parties to whatever behavior to be consenting. Children lack the legal and mental ability to consent and understand the repercussions of sexual behavior. Dogs and cats and chickens and cows and pigs and rabbits and monkeys and children and the mentally incompetent as well (sorry OSU peeps, it's true) lack that capacity as well, so that'll never be normal (but I understand bestiality laws vary from state to state). Under our Constitution all sex acts between consenting who have the capacity to consent parties are protected. Necrophilia? Most states are going to prohibit the desecration of a corpse and no one is going to find that sort of behavior normal. For health reasons especially.

Just for funsies and for OSU fans, here's a map of states where you could probably get away with raping a horse:

http://www.motherjones.com/rights-stuff/2010/05/map-bestiality-animal-sex-legal

[KABOOKIE]

Maybe pedophiles and people with sexual behavior disorders should be forced to carry liability insurance?

[Midtowner]

Maybe pedophiles and people with sexual behavior disorders should be forced to carry liability insurance?

Because you might leave your penis unattended and a criminal use it to commit a crime?

[BermudaSooner]

Just for funsies and for OSU fans, here's a map of states where you could probably get away with raping a horse:

http://www.motherjones.com/rights-stuff/2010/05/map-bestiality-animal-sex-legal

I do hope you had to do a google search for that link...;)

[Fraggle145]

Sexual deviancy is sexual deviancy. Some deviants don't have victims...per se. Some do. Either way, it ain't right. No matter how much those with issues try and tell us how normal their sexual appetites are.

I believe everyone has some deviancy in them. Some choose to resist temptation/urges, some don't. Really quite simple.

I dont think anyone is trying to say they are normal. Even the guys in the article I think know it isnt normal.

I think this is pointing out that those urges can be quite stronger in some people than others and that it is tied to development. If they are taking preventative measures (in some cases pretty strong measures, e.g., hormone therapy) to make sure they dont act on their urges does it change the way that you feel about them as a person?

[badger]

I don't think pedophiles, even if they are allowed to marry a kid and have a relationship with a kid, will ever be truly happy, because eventually, that child will grow up. And then what?

Kids are too immature to offer consent. Kids are weaker, smaller and need to be protected from potential predators.

Sorry, no amount of research can get around this.

[mojorisen2014]

Pederasses should have their balls cut off

[KABOOKIE]

Because you might leave your penis unattended and a criminal use it to commit a crime?

If that were the case your insurance would undoubtedly be minimum coverage.

[KantoSooner]

I think it boils down to there being a spectrum of sexual behaviors/orientations/attractions. Some are shared by so many people that they comprise 'normal'. These would include hetero/genital intercourse. Others are a bit more outre: hetero/anal or oral. Then there are the relatively speaking 'statistically normal' outliers: homosexual behaviors. They are there, they've always been there and they appear to be, in some percentage, to be genetically predetermined.
Then we get the real tails of the old bell curve. Your pedophiles, your guys who just can't leave the goats alone, those who are strongly driven but can't execute on a realtionship and remain celebate but autoerotic at truly epic levels.

All of these are seen in some distribution in any human population. It is pretty well established today that a large percentage of these behaviours are genetic predispositions. Some at least, can't be changed no matter how much the person in question wants to or tries to.

Right. So, what do we as a society do about it? I think we're finally starting to get to a more reasonable consensus. If it's something betweeen consenting adults, like kinky hetero sex, let them go after it in private settings. If it's adult, consensual homosex, again, let the parties in question go after it in private.

But forbid it between parties who can't consent. And that would most surely include children (and animals, but let's not go there for now, it just muddies the discussion).

So, we're pretty much agreed that sex with kids is just not acceptable. (I'd give judges leeway if we were talking sex between kids, and to look at 'kids' when one party or the other was in that 'tween category - I have trouble labelling 18 year old Johnny a sex offender/pedophile for bonking with 17 year old Jane).

What do we do with a guy who walks into a hospital or police station and says, in essence, "I'm irretrievably attracted to little girls. I fear that in an unforeseen moment of weakness at some time in the future, I might do something I myself regard as revolting. Help me." ?

To me, this ties back into the overall mental healthcare argument. What do we want to do with those who are trying to do the right thing but might not have the resources to afford psychiatric care? What do we do with family members who try to raise the alarm? There are some serious questions here that we're going to have to deal with either sooner or later.

[Fraggle145]

So, we're pretty much agreed that sex with kids is just not acceptable. (I'd give judges leeway if we were talking sex between kids, and to look at 'kids' when one party or the other was in that 'tween category - I have trouble labelling 18 year old Johnny a sex offender/pedophile for bonking with 17 year old Jane).

What do we do with a guy who walks into a hospital or police station and says, in essence, "I'm irretrievably attracted to little girls. I fear that in an unforeseen moment of weakness at some time in the future, I might do something I myself regard as revolting. Help me." ?

To me, this ties back into the overall mental healthcare argument. What do we want to do with those who are trying to do the right thing but might not have the resources to afford psychiatric care? What do we do with family members who try to raise the alarm? There are some serious questions here that we're going to have to deal with either sooner or later.

Exactly what I was trying to ask/say... But said better.

[SicEmBaylor]

There is never a shortage of sick ****s in this world nor is there a shortage of people willing to make apologies for them.

I bet these researchers were all Catholic.

[cleller]

Maybe pedophiles and people with sexual behavior disorders should be forced to carry liability insurance?


Because you might leave your penis unattended and a criminal use it to commit a crime?

At least (so far) no one is blaming the kids.

[yermom]

did you see the way they were dressed?

seriously though, i think you miss the point of the research...

[stoopified]

Gayas are born gay,pedophiles are born that way,next are rapists,murderers,wifebeaters,bankrobbers. Everything is OK, is normal. Apparently Sodom and Gomurrah was normal as well.

[OU68]

Gayas are born gay,pedophiles are born that way,next are rapists,murderers,wifebeaters,bankrobbers. Everything is OK, is normal. Apparently Sodom and Gomurrah was normal as well.

Soon, being a conservative, white, male hetrosexual will be a capital offense.

[KantoSooner]

So just cultivate a secret perversion. When the libruls come to get you, you can show off the polaroids of you sculpting vagina's into the frosting on top of lesbian wedding cakes in the buff or some such and you'll easily get a pass.

[yermom]

Soon, being a conservative, white, male hetrosexual will be a capital offense.

the future sounds awesome

[OU68]

the future sounds awesome
:highly_amused: Love you too!!

[StoopTroup]

I get a feeling that researchers might feel that putting these folks who's urges can't be filled or stopped even if they can't control any of it because they know they are hurting innocent children or Families and on the case of animals that they don't understand the deviance of sex with an animal that doesn't have the gift of Human thought or understanding.

In the past we institutionalized these folks. Now we arrest them give them some time and release them into society, hoping that they won't ever go back to their old or even new ways.

IMHO.....they probably ought to be put away forever if they repeat the offense again once released. To hell with this 3 strikes and your done BS with these folks. Especially if they don't registar and play games with the system we have that is supposed to warn all of us of their presence in our Country.

They probably quit research once they found out most of these sickos are Baptist. :wink:

[KantoSooner]

Unfortunately, most tend to pick up on the fact that their prediliction is frowned upon and hide it from view until they do something hideous. And then all you can do is lock 'em up. You can't undo the damage they've done.

But you'd get no argument from me about the need for residential mental health facilities. Or, to use the old name: asylums. And most would have to be at state cost; but, to me, that's a pretty clear quality of life enhancer that's worth paying for. Some decent quality orphanages, too, would beat hell out of foster care most of the time.

[TAFBSooner]

Nobody is saying that pedophilia is "normal." The question is what to do with people that have these urges, through no fault of their own, but have never acted on them.

Protecting our children has to come first.

Maybe institutionalizing them is the way to go. Will our state governments fund the rebuilding of our mental institutions? Would you support that with your taxes?

I don't believe they should be killed for their drives. It's one thing to express your disgust with them, but Frag's question is what should society do about them?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Kill'm all...let God sort'm out...

[Sooner98]

I was wondering when the push to normalize pedophilia by "scientists" and "researchers" would begin. I was thinking at least another 10 to 15 years, but I guess I have my answer now. A generation from now, we will no doubt be shouted down with screams of how pedophiles don't have a choice how they behave, since they were "born that way".

[TAFBSooner]

I was wondering when the push to normalize pedophilia by "scientists" and "researchers" would begin. I was thinking at least another 10 to 15 years, but I guess I have my answer now. A generation from now, we will no doubt be shouted down with screams of how pedophiles don't have a choice how they behave, since they were "born that way".

So what should society do to/with a pedophile who has never acted on his urges?

[KantoSooner]

let's make it harder still: what do you do with a pedo who has never acted on his urges and comes forward asking for help to prevent his ever doing so?
I think we can recognize pedophilia as part of a broad spectrum of sexual attractions and beyond the individual's choice and still define it as completely unacceptable.
Just being part of 'nature' does not make something benign or desireable. Hemlock is 100% natural but is not recommended as a thirst quencher.

[Sooner98]

So what should society do to/with a pedophile who has never acted on his urges?

Grant them the right to marry the consenting eight-year old of their choice, because after all, love is love?

[Fraggle145]

let's make it harder still: what do you do with a pedo who has never acted on his urges and comes forward asking for help to prevent his ever doing so?
I think we can recognize pedophilia as part of a broad spectrum of sexual attractions and beyond the individual's choice and still define it as completely unacceptable.
Just being part of 'nature' does not make something benign or desireable. Hemlock is 100% natural but is not recommended as a thirst quencher.

Bingo. I mean rape is natural. It happens in all sort of species. As is infanticide. As is homosexuality. Etc, etc, etc, The question is what do we do about it?

[SicEmBaylor]

I don't believe in incarcerating individuals for non-violent offenses; therefore, I don't believe the act of viewing pedophilia should constitute a prison-worthy offense. Now, certainly, any physical act is another matter.

I'm also opposed to "preventative" laws, so prosecuting or committing someone that is identified as a possible child molester bothers me a great deal when that individual has not yet acted on those impulses.

[Midtowner]

I don't believe in incarcerating individuals for non-violent offenses; therefore, I don't believe the act of viewing pedophilia should constitute a prison-worthy offense. Now, certainly, any physical act is another matter.

Viewing child pornography encourages the further use of children to create pornography. Hardly a victimless crime.

Child pornographers have actually won First Amendment cases protecting animated simulated child porn.

[SicEmBaylor]

Viewing child pornography encourages the further use of children to create pornography. Hardly a victimless crime.

Child pornographers have actually won First Amendment cases protecting animated simulated child porn.

I didn't say it was a victimless crime -- it is. I also didn't say it shouldn't be a crime -- it should. I simply stated that the punishment shouldn't be physical jail time unless it crosses the line to actual physical contact.

[Midtowner]

I didn't say it was a victimless crime -- it is. I also didn't say it shouldn't be a crime -- it should. I simply stated that the punishment shouldn't be physical jail time unless it crosses the line to actual physical contact.

Smoking pot is a victimless crime.

Supporting the child pornography industry in any way, shape or form is a crime with victims. The simple deterrent of being declared a registered sex offender and doing some time for participating in that industry surely keeps many from clicking over to see what all of that child porn fuss is all about.

[sappstuf]

Smoking pot is a victimless crime.

Supporting the child pornography industry in any way, shape or form is a crime with victims. The simple deterrent of being declared a registered sex offender and doing some time for participating in that industry surely keeps many from clicking over to see what all of that child porn fuss is all about.

Sure it is. Let us ask this Mexican if, oh wait.... He was just decapitated by a drug cartel.

[SicEmBaylor]

Sure it is. Let us ask this Mexican if, oh wait.... He was just decapitated by a drug cartel.
The cartels would be a non-issue as far as pot goes if pot wasn't illegal. The illegality of the act is what creates the criminal environment surrounding it.

Does the mob still control the liquor business? No.

[sappstuf]

The cartels would be a non-issue as far as pot goes if pot wasn't illegal. The illegality of the act is what creates the criminal environment surrounding it.

Does the mob still control the liquor business? No.

Mobs still control human trafficking in places where prostitution is legal. The kidnap girls and bring them where it is legal to have them. Underage behind closed doors in legal brothels...

In many ways, the legalization has made the problem worse.

[KantoSooner]

And we can now seque from pedophilia to pot! Is this a great country, or what?

As an aside, and before we commence The Great Pot Debate, Chapter 9,217, let me note that Oklahoma now has a common border with a state in which getting stoned, purely for pleasure, is now legal. Soon enough other surrounding states will legalize it. I would expect New Mexico to do that next. Then Kansas and, here's where I go out on a limb, Arkansas. Oklahoma, as with alcohol, will lag the rest of the nation. But this time it will be especially ironic since we'll also produce some of the best outdoor grown weed in the country.

I tell you, as unique and exotic as a lot of places are, there is no where on the planet that is any weirder than our own USofA. Truly a human carnival.

[KantoSooner]

Mobs still control human trafficking in places where prostitution is legal. The kidnap girls and bring them where it is legal to have them. Underage behind closed doors in legal brothels...

In many ways, the legalization has made the problem worse.

Worse than what? When slavery was legal? I know of no where where legalized prostitution exists that has legalized the abduction of children, importation of same and enforced sexual slavery. It's illegal everywhere. Some places just don't enforce their own laws.

[sappstuf]

Worse than what? When slavery was legal? I know of no where where legalized prostitution exists that has legalized the abduction of children, importation of same and enforced sexual slavery. It's illegal everywhere. Some places just don't enforce their own laws.

Worse than when it was all illegal. Who is talking about slavery??

Legalized prostitution gives the perfect front for illegal prostitution which include underage and kidnapped women. It makes it harder to enforce their own laws than if it was all illegal.

It certainly didn't empower women like Amsterdam thought it would.

[KantoSooner]

Sapp, I don't know about you, but, to me, being abducted and forced into doing things I don't want to do, without any options and without any pay sure sums up to sound like slavery.

I'm not at all sure you have any evidentiary basis to support the claim that legal anything makes the illegal version of same more prevelant, more likely or easier than if all of that thing was made illegal. And I have broadened that beyond prostitution to include drugs, alcohol, porn or what have you.

One thing that is certain is that human beings will engage in some behaviors (sex for money, intentionally getting intoxicated, looking at graphical depictions of sexual acts, etc) whether they are legal, illegal or somewhere inbetween. There is porn on the walls of the Colliseum and we have enough evidence of pricing of prostitution to be able to draw comparisons to today's versus that of Mesopotamia and Shang Dynastry China. (Interestingly, relative prices and pricing in constant dollars seems not to have changed much in 4,500 years).

There are some things that are best regulated because you simply are not going to stop people from doing them.

[sappstuf]

Sapp, I don't know about you, but, to me, being abducted and forced into doing things I don't want to do, without any options and without any pay sure sums up to sound like slavery.

I'm not at all sure you have any evidentiary basis to support the claim that legal anything makes the illegal version of same more prevelant, more likely or easier than if all of that thing was made illegal. And I have broadened that beyond prostitution to include drugs, alcohol, porn or what have you.

One thing that is certain is that human beings will engage in some behaviors (sex for money, intentionally getting intoxicated, looking at graphical depictions of sexual acts, etc) whether they are legal, illegal or somewhere inbetween. There is porn on the walls of the Colliseum and we have enough evidence of pricing of prostitution to be able to draw comparisons to today's versus that of Mesopotamia and Shang Dynastry China. (Interestingly, relative prices and pricing in constant dollars seems not to have changed much in 4,500 years).

There are some things that are best regulated because you simply are not going to stop people from doing them.

Did I make that point? No.

Sicem made a point that if you make something legal all the problems disappear.

I made the point that isn't always the case.

The "free-for-all" attitude of Amsterdam hasn't had the same result as prohibition:


Prostitution was legalized in the Netherlands in 2000, but has been tolerated in Amsterdam since the 1600′s. However, in recent years the city has had to admit that their legalized system is plagued with violence, coercion, drugs and human trafficking.

Starting in 2006 Amsterdam began a crackdown by closing a third of its previously licensed brothels. Since that time the city has introduced additional restrictions and has conducted studies that show that legalization has not resulted in significant lower incidences of abuse.

You say that we can't stop it, so we should regulate it. Amsterdam has been a great social experiment of anything goes, just regulate it.... Why we ignore the results just because it has been a failure?

[KantoSooner]

Has it been a failure?

Let's compare Amsterdam with cities that never had (in modern times) legalized brothels. Is Amsterdam any worse than, say Paris? Rome? Moscow? (Just to keep it in Europe and not using a potentially unfair comparison such as Bombay or Calcutta).

It sounds like Amsterdam is getting around to enforcing it's rules. In a sense it's like not enforcing health codes in the restaurant trade. Don't do it long enough and you get filthy kitchens. Same thing here: you don't enforce common sense regulations, you get people who'll cheat. There's money involved, go figure.

Simply legalizing something doesn't make all the problems go away....but it generally takes a bunch of the profit out of those problems and makes them easier to control if you have the intent to do so.

But now let's turn the thing on its head: does making something illegal reduce its incidence? In the case of driving without wearing a seatbelt, yes, making it mandatory seems to have had the effect of enforcing a socially desired behavior. Making pot or prostitution illegal, however, don't seem to have damaged those trades one iota. And both have been illegal for over a century with the full weight of the law, churchs, employers and a Bowdlerized Hollywood battling against them. At some point you have to weigh a behavior in the balance and figure out whether your legal regime really needs to be involved.

[sappstuf]

Has it been a failure?

Let's compare Amsterdam with cities that never had (in modern times) legalized brothels. Is Amsterdam any worse than, say Paris? Rome? Moscow? (Just to keep it in Europe and not using a potentially unfair comparison such as Bombay or Calcutta).

It sounds like Amsterdam is getting around to enforcing it's rules. In a sense it's like not enforcing health codes in the restaurant trade. Don't do it long enough and you get filthy kitchens. Same thing here: you don't enforce common sense regulations, you get people who'll cheat. There's money involved, go figure.

Simply legalizing something doesn't make all the problems go away....but it generally takes a bunch of the profit out of those problems and makes them easier to control if you have the intent to do so.

But now let's turn the thing on its head: does making something illegal reduce its incidence? In the case of driving without wearing a seatbelt, yes, making it mandatory seems to have had the effect of enforcing a socially desired behavior. Making pot or prostitution illegal, however, don't seem to have damaged those trades one iota. And both have been illegal for over a century with the full weight of the law, churchs, employers and a Bowdlerized Hollywood battling against them. At some point you have to weigh a behavior in the balance and figure out whether your legal regime really needs to be involved.

The people of Amsterdam, who have a centuries long tradition of being very liberal, think it has been a failure. So apparently they think there is a limit of how loose you can make the rules.

The reputation of Amsterdam and legal prostitution has created a demand. 5K to 8K prostitutes are in Amsterdam... There are not nearly enough women to fill the demand locally. So what happens? Women are kidnapped, mostly in Eastern Europe and brought in to meet the demand created by legal status.

So yes, if prostitution is made illegal in Amsterdam and enforced, then the sex tourism trade that they created will stop. Stopping the sex tourism trade would absolutely reduce the incidence of prostitution in Amsterdam.

[Jacie]

So yes, if prostitution is made illegal in Amsterdam and enforced, then the sex tourism trade that they created will stop.

So it's all their fault, who woulda figured the Dutch were the cause of sex tourism?

[yermom]

So yes, if prostitution is made illegal in Amsterdam and enforced, then the sex tourism trade that they created will stop. Stopping the sex tourism trade would absolutely reduce the incidence of prostitution in Amsterdam.

i think we've been over how well it works to stop something by making it illegal.

[olevetonahill]

Leave My Guns ,Booze and Hos alone
Do what ya want with the rest

[sappstuf]

So it's all their fault, who woulda figured the Dutch were the cause of sex tourism?

It isn't their fault in Thailand.. It is their fault in their own country. They recognize that.

[sappstuf]

i think we've been over how well it works to stop something by making it illegal.

It was illegal in Amsterdam for 400 years but tolerated. Anything that works for 400 is a pretty good system. In 2000 they made it legal. A little over a decade later they are already backstepping. Which worked better?

Amersterdam didn't suddenly become religious. They simply see that what they thought was the solution was worse than it was before.

[KantoSooner]

And they also didn't make it illegal. They shut down 1/3 of the brothels. The 1/3 that weren't obeying the laws. That implies that the other 2/3 are still open, under their laws.
Rejoice! The curtains are still open in Amsterdam.
And I reckon you can still get a space cake and cup of espresso and listen to Dark Side of the Moon.

[sappstuf]

And they also didn't make it illegal. They shut down 1/3 of the brothels. The 1/3 that weren't obeying the laws. That implies that the other 2/3 are still open, under their laws.
Rejoice! The curtains are still open in Amsterdam.
And I reckon you can still get a space cake and cup of espresso and listen to Dark Side of the Moon.

They aren't open from 0400 to 0900 everyday so I guess it is illegal to get a little early morning trim... And they are thinking of raising the age limit of being a prostitute to 21 versus 18.

[KantoSooner]

Damn, and here just as I might have to go there in a month or so. First they narrow the window for getting stoned and now this. WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO???!!!

[sappstuf]

Damn, and here just as I might have to go there in a month or so. First they narrow the window for getting stoned and now this. WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO???!!!

Amsterdam grew up... What about you?




;)

[KantoSooner]

Amsterdam grew up... What about you?




;)

OOOOOOoooooooo, an ADULT Amsterdam. I likey! It'd still be a bit short of Bangkok, but then, most everywhere is a bit short of Bangkok when it comes to outright, down in the gutter, by the side of the road, head thrown back, howling at the moon debauchery.

and no, I have been fighting growing up for nigh on 50 years. I'm content right where I am.

[Chuck Bao]

I have lived 20+ years in Bangkok and sex tourism is very bad news. While prostitution in Thailand is illegal, I am inclinded to agree with those who say that legalizing prostitution would protect many trapped in the sex industry, some of whom are unfortunately underaged. Education and more realistic laws in the respective home countries could help eliminate it all together. Legalizing prostitution could take away at least some of the illegal and illicit aspects, thereby protecting both provider and client. But I'm not sure we are advanced enough to think along those lines just yet.

In terms of underage sex, it should remain criminal as should viewing any porn with underaged actors. There should be no equivacation on this.

[KantoSooner]

As per usual, Chuck nails it.