Winners and Losers Of Immigration Reform

[FaninAma]

If a comprehensive immigration reform plan is adopted that leads to legalization of the 11+ million undocumented immigrants in the country which socioeconomic group will be the biggest loser in terms of economic impact? Taxpayers? The middle class? Other groups in the lower socieconomic strata?

[badger]

Well Fan, they're already here, so legalizing them will simply mean that they are now citizens and not at risk of deportation.

On that alone, the winners will be the immigrants, the losers will be the deportation offices that suddenly don't have as much work to do.

But, looking at the bigger picture, the impact might be that more try to enter the country in hopes of future legalization bills, since after all, it already happened under Reagan.

We need to make this legislation the final broad legalization bill and do more to level things out between U.S. and Mexico. Why are two countries that are at peace with each other in the midst of this border battle?

Things are already progressing -- there is an emerging middle class in Mexico that are large consumers for U.S. exports. If things are good there, they'll only come to the U.S. to visit, not live and work en masse, which would also be good for both countries.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I am very sad to read that Rand Paul has caved...

[okie52]

I am very sad to read that Rand Paul has caved...

He should have listened to his father.

[okie52]

If a comprehensive immigration reform plan is adopted that leads to legalization of the 11+ million undocumented immigrants in the country which socioeconomic group will be the biggest loser in terms of economic impact? Taxpayers? The middle class? Other groups in the lower socieconomic strata?

The dems will be the winner at least for the next generation. Illegals will be winners, too, and future immigration will be aimed towards open border policies as the increased hispanic population will continue to demand it. Business will be winners initially through the wage suppression that the illegals will create.

The losers will be American citizens that will be forced to support the poverty level illegals. The Pubs will be big losers for at least the next 20 years by rewarding a voter block that has historically voted overwhelmingly democrat for the last 30 years. Business will ultimately be losers as the expanded democrat base will vote against pro business legislation.

[olevetonahill]

Sounds like a bunch of whooped punnanies.
"Im not going to tell you again, Quit entering the USA illegally." "This is the Last warning"
Give me a break. as long as their are bleedin heart Libs they gonna Keep coming.

[badger]

I am very sad to read that Rand Paul has caved...

Meh, even his filibuster eventually ended. You really didn't think that he'd hold out forever, did you?

[okie52]

Sounds like a bunch of whooped punnanies.
"Im not going to tell you again, Quit entering the USA illegally." "This is the Last warning"
Give me a break. as long as their are bleedin heart Libs they gonna Keep coming.

Hell, doesn't even have to be bleeding hearts. Carter, Reagan, Daddy Bush, Clinton, W, and Obama all either turned a blind eye to illegals or pursued amnesty. Business wanted cheap labor so they sold out. Pubs wanted to keep business happy so they sold out. Dems wanted to expand their voter base so they sold out.

As Lenin once stated "when we go to hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope".

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Americans who like to eat meat and chicken will be winners because no Americans want to work in those sh!thole processing facilities.
Taxpayers will be winners as the shadow economy is brought into the light.
Consumers will be winners as we need laborers for construction and other industries.

The losers will be the demogogues and xenophobes. Although they may actually be winners too as they can raise money for their crusade against the brown invaders.

[yermom]

Americans who like to eat meat and chicken will be winners because no Americans want to work in those sh!thole processing facilities.
Taxpayers will be winners as the shadow economy is brought into the light.
Consumers will be winners as we need laborers for construction and other industries.

The losers will be the demogogues and xenophobes. Although they may actually be winners too as they can raise money for their crusade against the brown invaders.

this seems to cover it for me, for the most part as well

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Americans who like to eat meat and chicken will be winners because no Americans want to work in those sh!thole processing facilities.
Taxpayers will be winners as the shadow economy is brought into the light.
Consumers will be winners as we need laborers for construction and other industries.

The losers will be the demogogues and xenophobes. Although they may actually be winners too as they can raise money for their crusade against the brown invaders.If the govt. keeps sticking it more and more to the private sector, and wildly spending money that they don't have, there will be little for the new legals to work on, as the economy continues to dry up.

[yermom]

let them start paying payroll taxes and see what it's really like to be citizens

[okie52]

Americans who like to eat meat and chicken will be winners because no Americans want to work in those sh!thole processing facilities.
Taxpayers will be winners as the shadow economy is brought into the light.
Consumers will be winners as we need laborers for construction and other industries.

The losers will be the demogogues and xenophobes. Although they may actually be winners too as they can raise money for their crusade against the brown invaders.

What a crock.

So it's only demagogues and xenophobes that want to keep illegals out? God forbid anyone being against 11,000,000 people illegally crashing our border.


Childhood Poverty Among Hispanics Sets Record, Leads Nation
This negative milestone for Hispanics is a product of their growing numbers, high birth rates and declining economic fortunes. According to the 2010 U.S. Census, Hispanics today make up a record 16.3% of the total U.S. population. But they comprise an even larger share—23.1%—of the nation’s children (Passel, Cohn and Lopez, 2011), a disparity driven mainly by high birth rates among Hispanic immigrants (Pew Hispanic Center, 2011)

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2011/09/28/childhood-poverty-among-hispanics-sets-record-leads-nation/


Hispanic Poverty Rate Highest In New Supplemental Census Measure
by Mark Hugo Lopez and D’Vera Cohn

For more than a decade, the Census Bureau has been developing an alternative measure of poverty that is intended to better reflect the costs of basic living expenses as well as the resources people have to pay them. The bureau has just released results for 2010 from the alternative metric—called the Supplemental Poverty Measure (SPM)—that uses a wider range of factors than the official federal measure to determine poverty status.http://www.pewhispanic.org/2011/11/08/hispanic-poverty-rate-highest-in-new-supplemental-census-measure/

Tax payers the winners? Under what Disney world production would that be? As legal residents and citizens the illegals will be entitled to all benefits that are afforded American citizens. The illegals poor education, non English speaking, high birth rates and low income will put them on the backs of tax payers for generations to come.

Then there is the family reunification aspect that will see the 11,000,000 illegals numbers potentially grow to up to 33,000,000.

Americans that like chicken and beef will still get them but those industries are going to have to up the wages to secure American workers...particularly if American workers can make almost as much money by sitting on their ***.

[okie52]

let them start paying payroll taxes and see what it's really like to be citizens

Hell, that was at least one of the few benefits of the illegals. Many were paying payroll taxes under fake SS#'s and never getting anything out. Now they will be receiving SS benefits that will more than likely be disproportionate to what they put in.

[badger]

Tax payers the winners? Under what Disney world production would that be? As legal residents and citizens the illegals will be entitled to all benefits that are afforded American citizens.

One at a time...

The illegals poor education
Their children are already here (some are already U.S. citizens by being born here) in our schools.


non English speaking
Nobody can stick around in this country for very long without picking up the language most of us speak here. It'll just happen by default, if not by extreme efforts to learn English.


high birth rates
Again, they're already here, already have high birth rates so nothing is changing


and low income will put them on the backs of tax payers for generations to come.
Generations? How many? Many of us have immigrants as ancestors. Our ancestors might have been poor, might have been wealthy, but as the old saying goes, "Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves." The wealthy don't usually stay wealthy as families grow larger and become divided, and the poor have the means to better themselves in this country.

I do agree that family reunification may make things complicated.

[okie52]

One at a time...

Their children are already here (some are already U.S. citizens by being born here) in our schools.


Nobody can stick around in this country for very long without picking up the language most of us speak here. It'll just happen by default, if not by extreme efforts to learn English.


Again, they're already here, already have high birth rates so nothing is changing


Generations? How many? Many of us have immigrants as ancestors. Our ancestors might have been poor, might have been wealthy, but as the old saying goes, "Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves." The wealthy don't usually stay wealthy as families grow larger and become divided, and the poor have the means to better themselves in this country.

I do agree that family reunification may make things complicated.

There have been illegals here for many years that still can't speak English. We aren't pressing 1 for nothing.

Many of us were children of immigrants?...hell that can be said of just about anyone in any country except many countries (like in Europe) have reduced or ceased immigration altogether. We allow over 600,000 people each year to become citizens of the US although those immigrants can speak english and are generally skilled labor and/or well educated and represent a much more diverse group of cultures and nationalities.

As to those that are already here...take away their jobs and benefits and most will leave. 1,000,000 left with the economic downturn at the end of 2008. Secure the border, punish employers that hire illegals and mandate everify (or something better) for all businesses. In a decade the illegals numbers will be greatly reduced.

[badger]

As to those that are already here...take away their jobs and benefits and most will leave. 1,000,000 left with the economic downturn at the end of 2008. Secure the border, punish employers that hire illegals and mandate everify (or something better) for all businesses. In a decade the illegals numbers will be greatly reduced.

If it were really that simple to up and leave, then California, Illinois and other anti-business states would be losing their employers to Texas and Oklahoma and other business-friendly states immediately.

Illegals in America, much like businesses in California, seem to think that better days are ahead, or that it just isn't worthwhile yet to give up and move out. Changing laws, tanking the economy and making things difficult didn't cause every business to leave California, not even a majority of them. Why would the same things make illegals leave America?

[okie52]

If it were really that simple to up and leave, then California, Illinois and other anti-business states would be losing their employers to Texas and Oklahoma and other business-friendly states immediately.

Illegals in America, much like businesses in California, seem to think that better days are ahead, or that it just isn't worthwhile yet to give up and move out. Changing laws, tanking the economy and making things difficult didn't cause every business to leave California, not even a majority of them. Why would the same things make illegals leave America?

Businesses have quite a bit more roots and investment to their state than someone that wandered across the border.

Businesses in California think better days are ahead? They may be trapped by their own market or inabilty to move. Some people just won't leave their state no matter what...unlike the illegals that are here in the US.

As long as opportunities and benefits are going to be provided to illegals they will remain instead of heading back to the ****hole they left. Once the opportunities and benefits are removed then most will head back south.

Supposedly they came here for opportunity so when that's gone why would they stay?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Many of us were children of immigrants?...hell that can be said of just about anyone in any country except many countries (like in Europe) have reduced or ceased immigration altogether. We allow over 600,000 people each year to become citizens of the US although those immigrants can speak english and are generally skilled labor and/or well educated and represent a much more diverse group of cultures and nationalities.

Don't confuse European social immigration issues with economic.

For example, Germany, the obvious engine of the European economy, is SCREAMING for immigrant labor. Can't get enough. So much so that there's efforts to relax many work visa qualifiers to bring immigrants to the country to fill that growing void in the Deutschland labor force.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

What a crock.

So it's only demagogues and xenophobes that want to keep illegals out? God forbid anyone being against 11,000,000 people illegally crashing our border.





Tax payers the winners? Under what Disney world production would that be? As legal residents and citizens the illegals will be entitled to all benefits that are afforded American citizens. The illegals poor education, non English speaking, high birth rates and low income will put them on the backs of tax payers for generations to come.

Then there is the family reunification aspect that will see the 11,000,000 illegals numbers potentially grow to up to 33,000,000.

Americans that like chicken and beef will still get them but those industries are going to have to up the wages to secure American workers...particularly if American workers can make almost as much money by sitting on their ***.

So how many more jack booted gov't agents do we need to seal off that 2,000 mile border? How much more big gov't do we need to put up a maginot line? How much more are you willing to pay for your ground beef and chicken? Not to mention getting a house built. Our economy benefits from a supply of cheap labor. Our consumers benefit. As long as there's opportunity to make money here and no opportunity there, you are never going to stop the flow of people. Hell, the Soviets put up a wall and shot anybody that came close to it and they still couldn't completely stop the population leakage.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Don't confuse European social immigration issues with economic.

For example, Germany, the obvious engine of the European economy, is SCREAMING for immigrant labor. Can't get enough. So much so that there's efforts to relax many work visa qualifiers to bring immigrants to the country to fill that growing void in the Deutschland labor force.

Give me Mexicans over North Africans any day of the week.

[badger]

Hell, the Soviets put up a wall and shot anybody that came close to it and they still couldn't completely stop the population leakage.

North Korea is sort of like that too, except unlike their South Korean counterparts guarding the border that face north, the North Korean guards have to face each other so that the other one doesn't bail southward (how bout THAT for a prisoner's dilemma?)

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Badj, you haven't been in Houston much, huh! Many parts of the city in the wards and such, speakie no englishie...You need to be fluant in Spanish in order to go to these areas, then again, most people don't go to the areas becuase of the crime...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

So how many more jack booted gov't agents do we need to seal off that 2,000 mile border? How much more big gov't do we need to put up a maginot line? How much more are you willing to pay for your ground beef and chicken? Not to mention getting a house built. Our economy benefits from a supply of cheap labor. Our consumers benefit. As long as there's opportunity to make money here and no opportunity there, you are never going to stop the flow of people. Hell, the Soviets put up a wall and shot anybody that came close to it and they still couldn't completely stop the population leakage.

I suggest militarizing the border. We put the Armed Forces there with their technology, hell mine the place as well. Embed deputized National Guard and Border Patrol personnel within these patrols to arrest people, haul their asses to jail and then deport them as far as we can legally deport them. If the smugglers want to use arms, then we use 50 cals and Apache's back at them. That will fix the dealio quite quickly...

[FaninAma]

I had a more specific population in mind. I think citizens who heavily utilize government social services will have those services reduced because there will be more demand for them as more illigegal immigrants gains greater access to them and as legalization attracts even more undocumented immigrants into the country.

Also, I understand the argument that undocuemted immigrants fill jobs that Americans don't want. I'm not sure I agree with that assertion. I do think undocumented workers suppress wages which does help consumers of certain products that rely on illegal immigrants but hurts the overall economic health of entire communities.

The bottom line is that mass amnesty will hurt the poorest citizens of this country of all races......black, white and , ironically , hispanic citizens.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

It's a win-win.

[FaninAma]

Lets just throw the borders open, then. Just remember, despite the popular opinion among progressives and their supporters, government social services are finite and our admitted unemployment rate is 7.7%. So you better make sure those dependent on these services understand they will need to be willing to share their services with more recipients. And those looking for jobs, especially entry level jobs, will have a bit more competetion.

[The Remnant]

Here in San Bernardino there is a LARGE illegal immigrant population. The city is going bankrupt because the tax base moved away.We also have rampant gang activity. Middle class home owners are taking it on the chin.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I suggest militarizing the border. We put the Armed Forces there with their technology, hell mine the place as well. Embed deputized National Guard and Border Patrol personnel within these patrols to arrest people, haul their asses to jail and then deport them as far as we can legally deport them. If the smugglers want to use arms, then we use 50 cals and Apache's back at them. That will fix the dealio quite quickly...

So I assume you're going to confiscate all that private land along the border to create a militarized zone? You're going to land mine El Paso and Brownsville? Some of you small gov't guys have some really big gov't solutions when it fits your need.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Sounds like a plan...

Small government means defense of the country and people...Not giving out free stuff and coddling people. Big difference. Fed gov's first job was defense of the country. That is small government to me...

[Midtowner]

I am very sad to read that Rand Paul has caved...

True libertarians, even Ayn Rand believed in open borders.

It's the 'merican way.

[yermom]

Sounds like a plan...

Small government means defense of the country and people...Not giving out free stuff and coddling people. Big difference. Fed gov's first job was defense of the country. That is small government to me...

small government isn't "papers please"

[diverdog]

Here in San Bernardino there is a LARGE illegal immigrant population. The city is going bankrupt because the tax base moved away.We also have rampant gang activity. Middle class home owners are taking it on the chin.

The gangs are what worries me the most.

[diverdog]

True libertarians, even Ayn Rand believed in open borders.

It's the 'merican way.

True libertarians are little more than anarchist.

[FaninAma]

True progressives are little more than social fascists.

FIFY.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

small government isn't "papers please"

No, not for citizens, but for visitors and illegals, it sure is...

[yermom]

No, not for citizens, but for visitors and illegals, it sure is...

i'm trying to make sense of this statement on any level

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So I assume you're going to confiscate all that private land along the border to create a militarized zone? You're going to land mine El Paso and Brownsville? Some of you small gov't guys have some really big gov't solutions when it fits your need.how do border patrol and customs, wildlife etc. people operate on private lands now? I didn't see any mention of landmining the cities? IOW, you have your democrat agenda, and will say whatever you dream up. Last but foremost, what ARE the legal functions of the fed govt...Duh! forget about that one, haha?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

i'm trying to make sense of this statement on any levelIs that a stupid card I see? It seems to have the reverse effect.

[Midtowner]

No, not for citizens, but for visitors and illegals, it sure is...

How do you tell the difference?

[diverdog]

FIFY.

Hey I was quoting G Gordon Liddy. If you got a beef take it up with him.

Would you consider Teddy Roosevelt a facist?

[olevetonahill]

True libertarians are little more than anarchist.

Ya say that like its a BAD thing.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

How do you tell the difference?oh, wonderful, as usual.

[olevetonahill]

No, not for citizens, but for visitors and illegals, it sure is...


How do you tell the difference?

You ax em fer their ****in PAPERS, sheesh

[Midtowner]

oh, wonderful, as usual.

Serious question.... if citizens shouldn't be asked to prove they're lawfully here, how do you tell the difference before asking?

[Midtowner]

You ax em fer their ****in PAPERS, sheesh


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Absent an immigration checkpoint (not a search), does the 4th Amendment just not matter?

[olevetonahill]

Absent an immigration checkpoint (not a search), does the 4th Amendment just not matter?

matlock How is askin fo ID violating the Constitution?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Serious question.... if citizens shouldn't be asked to prove they're lawfully here, how do you tell the difference before asking?if you could tell the difference, why would you need to ask?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Absent an immigration checkpoint (not a search), does the 4th Amendment just not matter?what part of being in country illegally is unclear?

[FaninAma]

Hey I was quoting G Gordon Liddy. If you got a beef take it up with him.

Would you consider Teddy Roosevelt a facist?
It depends. What socialistic or fascist actions did Teddy commit?

[Midtowner]

matlock How is askin fo ID violating the Constitution?

You don't have to show ID unless an officer has reasonable suspicion to believe there's a crime in progress or if you are doing something which requires you to carry identification, the most popular activity being driving--you're required to present your ID upon demand.

If I am walking down the sidewalk, minding my own business and a police officer asks me for ID just 'cuz, I'm under no obligation to show it. If he has reasonable suspicion to detain me, then he can do so, but when I sue him later, he'd better come up with a really good excuse.

[olevetonahill]

You don't have to show ID unless an officer has reasonable suspicion to believe there's a crime in progress or if you are doing something which requires you to carry identification, the most popular activity being driving--you're required to present your ID upon demand.

If I am walking down the sidewalk, minding my own business and a police officer asks me for ID just 'cuz, I'm under no obligation to show it. If he has reasonable suspicion to detain me, then he can do so, but when I sue him later, he'd better come up with a really good excuse.

How about you wuz being ugly in public?

[Midtowner]

what part of being in country illegally is unclear?

What isn't clear is what you are using for probable cause.

[Midtowner]

How about you wuz being ugly in public?

Only if some ugly SOB just robbed a liquor store down the street and I matched that description.

[olevetonahill]

Only if some ugly SOB just robbed a liquor store down the street and I matched that description.

Well you prolly guilty of that then. :smile:

[sappstuf]

Illegal immigrants are to immigration what shoplifters are to shopping.

[okie52]

So how many more jack booted gov't agents do we need to seal off that 2,000 mile border? How much more big gov't do we need to put up a maginot line? How much more are you willing to pay for your ground beef and chicken? Not to mention getting a house built. Our economy benefits from a supply of cheap labor. Our consumers benefit. As long as there's opportunity to make money here and no opportunity there, you are never going to stop the flow of people. Hell, the Soviets put up a wall and shot anybody that came close to it and they still couldn't completely stop the population leakage.


Yeah, the Soviets put up a wall to keep their people from leaving...not the other way around. Jackbooted...haha. Yeah, that's what those ICE people are when they dare to protect our borders from illegals and drug cartels.

We have plenty of military personnel stationed around the globe protecting other country's borders...let's have them protect our own and at no additional cost whatsoever.

Hell yes I'm willing to pay more for my groceries (including beef and chicken) and housing. The cheap labor has a price and it is shouldered by the tax payers. And when you make them citizens
the price will go up even more.

[KantoSooner]

We will always need a system for people to immigrate and to emigrate. And we should strongly consider a temporary worker pass. Make the rules simple, easy to understand and then enforce them, primarily through controls at the workplace like e-verify.
It's about that simple.
We don't have trouble with wealthy foreigners who overstay their visas and hang out on vacation. The issue of criminals coming to the US to commit criminal or terroristic acts is something that is going to exist forever anyway and is best dealt with by the FBI, CIA and local law enforcement. You can't address it through immigration policy.
And we're going to have to address the fact that we've got 12 million or so illegals here already and that many of them are dug in pretty deep (families, work, community, etc). We have to have some mechanism to deal with them that respects the law but also acknowledges that they are part of the community.
So long as those points are addressed, I'm pretty flexible as to the precise wording of any proposed law.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Illegal immigrants are to immigration what shoplifters are to shopping.Maybe, but do only 70% of the shoplifters vote democrat?

[C&CDean]

Maybe, but do only 70% of the shoplifters vote democrat?

No. 100% are democrats, only 70% are registered.

[olevetonahill]

No. 100% are democrats, only 70% are registered.

:congratulatory:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

How do you tell the difference?

The authorities ask them. If they cannot produce evidence in the country legally, arrest them.

[Midtowner]

The authorities ask them. If they cannot produce evidence in the country legally, arrest them.

Not constitutional. We don't live in a police state.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Uhmm, if you are not a citizen and you are in the country by permission, I would think the constitutional protections afforded to citizens do not apply in full force.

As they have overextended their Visa, a crime, then that is reasonable authority...

[Midtowner]

Uhmm, if you are not a citizen and you are in the country by permission, I would think the constitutional protections afforded to citizens do not apply in full force.

Arizona v. United States held that the police officer can inquire about immigration status during lawful encounters. That would not include suspicionless stops. So then we get back to the question--how do you tell a legal immigrant or citizen from an illegal one by looking at them?


As they have overextended their Visa, a crime, then that is reasonable authority...

What's the probable cause?

[olevetonahill]

Arizona v. United States held that the police officer can inquire about immigration status during lawful encounters. That would not include suspicionless stops. So then we get back to the question--how do you tell a legal immigrant or citizen from an illegal one by looking at them?



What's the probable cause?

Dayum matlock are you really this stupid?
The way you tell is IF they are BROWN, You ax em.

[Midtowner]

You can ask, they don't have to answer.

And if you have no other probable cause, they are free to go.

[olevetonahill]

You can ask, they don't have to answer.

And if you have no other probable cause, they are free to go.

What? You didnt see that sombitch throw down that piece of trash? Thats litterin and He needs a ticket. so he needs ID
you really aint that naive are ya?

[Midtowner]

What? You didnt see that sombitch throw down that piece of trash? Thats litterin and He needs a ticket. so he needs ID
you really aint that naive are ya?

Lots of departments are moving over to dash cams. It makes it a little more difficult for POS crooked cops to invent their own PC. Yeah, it's definitely disturbing that a former LEO would even joke about something like that. Glad you're no longer wearing a badge.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Lots of departments are moving over to dash cams. It makes it a little more difficult for POS crooked cops to invent their own PC. Yeah, it's definitely disturbing that a former LEO would even joke about something like that. Glad you're no longer wearing a badge.

There's a reason for dash cam's and you know damn well it ain't because of "POS crooked cops".

[olevetonahill]

Lots of departments are moving over to dash cams. It makes it a little more difficult for POS crooked cops to invent their own PC. Yeah, it's definitely disturbing that a former LEO would even joke about something like that. Glad you're no longer wearing a badge.

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9000000/You-re-funny-keep-smiling-9040218-300-300.gif