Cyprus bailout causes run on banks [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

pphilfran

3/17/2013, 08:40 AM

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...138495325.html

From my favorite news source....Aljazeera...more at link...the bailout is about 1/2 of their annual GDP

Cyprus has received a $13bn bailout after lengthy talks in Brussels with eurozone leaders and the International Monetary Fund. But the conditions attached to the deal have led to a run on the country's banks.

Savers reacted with shock on Saturday after the government agreed to an unprecedented levy on all deposits in return for the EU bailout.

The debt rescue package, agreed with the eurozone and the IMF early in the morning after around 10 hours of talks in the Belgian capital, is significantly less than the 17bn euros Cyprus had initially sought.

Most of the balance is to be made up through the bank deposit levy of up to 9.9 percent, which will apply to everyone from pensioners to Russian oligarchs and tens of thousands of British expatriates, and is hoped to raise 5.8bn euros.

Cyprus - which accounts for just 0.2 percent of the combined eurozone economy - is the fifth country to secure a debt rescue package from its eurozone partners in the three-year debt crisis.

sappstuf

3/17/2013, 12:38 PM

9.9% if you have over 100K Euros in the bank and 6.7% for everyone else...

Midtowner

3/17/2013, 02:46 PM

sappstuf

3/17/2013, 03:07 PM

This just sends a signal to the people of Italy, Spain and Portugal and other struggling countries in the EU; Your money is not safe.

Blue

3/17/2013, 04:23 PM

IIRC, Cyprus has been a tax haven for the wealthy and for multinational corporations for some time.

I feel sorry for the people of Cyprus, but to the tax cheats and drug cartels, this couldn't have happened to a nicer group of folks.

Its straight up robbery. Leave it to you to find some way to defend it.

Do you get off on having a differing opinion than everyone else?

Blue

3/17/2013, 04:24 PM

You should rename thread title "EU and IMF Rob peasants blind."

Blue

3/17/2013, 04:28 PM

Italy, step on up....!

15% being proposed. ****in bloodsucking theives!

Europes new deal. I'd be gettin my money out.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-17/german-commerzbank-suggests-wealth-tax-italy-next

Midtowner

3/17/2013, 04:40 PM

Its straight up robbery.

Robbery would be criminal. This isn't criminal. Property rights only exist when you have a governing set of rules which put them in place, and the extent to which folks have those property rights varies.

The fact is that your average cypriot probably doesn't have $100K in the bank, so it's a 6.7% one time tax of what they have in the bank on any given day, which probably isn't enough to break anyone's bank.

For the criminal organizations and tax cheats out there, I would agree, this is a huge deal for them. Do I feel sorry for them? Not at all. You lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

Blue

3/17/2013, 04:46 PM

Robbery would be criminal. This isn't criminal. Property rights only exist when you have a governing set of rules which put them in place, and the extent to which folks have those property rights varies.

The fact is that your average cypriot probably doesn't have $100K in the bank, so it's a 6.7% one time tax of what they have in the bank on any given day, which probably isn't enough to break anyone's bank.

For the criminal organizations and tax cheats out there, I would agree, this is a huge deal for them. Do I feel sorry for them? Not at all. You lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

A 7% "tax". Yeah right. If you had 90 K, you just got taxed 6k for the good of the country.

Nobody will trust the banks now in Europe. This will end badly. And it is theft. You can try and justify all you want, but God help us if thats the new way countries handle finances.

yermom

3/17/2013, 05:19 PM

what was going to happen if they didn't get the bailout?

pphilfran

3/17/2013, 05:49 PM

what was going to happen if they didn't get the bailout?

A couple of major banks would collapse and the government would default by Wed....I think that is what I read...

They have delayed the vote...the prez is addressing the country sometime today....

yermom

3/17/2013, 06:09 PM

but how much money would said depositors lose?

pphilfran

3/17/2013, 06:19 PM

5.8 billion Euros from depositors...a little over half the total bailout...corp taxes must also go up a couple of percent...feds must sell off some of their assets....that is if the plan go through...talk that the lower income tax on deposits will be lower than the initial reported number...still conjecture since the vote has been delayed...

pphilfran

3/17/2013, 06:25 PM

Population of only a million or so...even non citizens get hammered...Great Britain has vowed to make its service members that are stationed there whole...

cleller

3/17/2013, 06:35 PM

So when it comes to the local citizenry, those that have saved their money will be impacted. Another case of those who live responsibly being stuck with the bill for those that don't.

Fits right in with what I've been working on today: my taxes.

pphilfran

3/17/2013, 06:38 PM

Cyprus wanted 22 billion Euro and got significantly less...

The banking tax will get about 6,000 (7,000 US)euro per citizen...

If this were to take place in the US it would amount to 7 grand on 300 million citizens....2.1 trillion US dollars

C&CDean

3/17/2013, 06:47 PM

diverdog

3/17/2013, 09:57 PM

olevetonahill

3/17/2013, 10:10 PM

Dean,

They recall currency all the time in Europe. If you do not make the exchange you are SOL.

But Dean aint buryin his Benjamins in Europe He buryin em in his Pasture over by Lexington
Pay tention

Blue

3/17/2013, 10:36 PM

Dean,

They recall currency all the time in Europe. If you do not make the exchange you are SOL.

Recall currency?! They took a percentage out of everyones bank account. On what planet is this ok?

Blue

3/17/2013, 11:33 PM

Diver and Mid....if you can honestly say that you could go to bed tonight and wake up having 7-10% of your savings account jacked and be ok with it, I would like you to say that.

SoonerStormchaser

3/18/2013, 03:03 AM

Living over here for the past two months has been a real eye-opener into just how ****ty the world economy is.

I was talking with one of my co-workers (a Deutsch LtCol) because he was asking about all the sequestration BS happening back home. I put it this way, "You know how mad Germans are about having to constantly bail out all these other Eurozone countries, which is making their economy stagnant?" "Yes." "Well, it's similar in the US...we can't fund our military and our national programs because we're giving money to other countries as foreign aid...and most of the countries we give money do don't exactly like us 24/7."

diverdog

3/18/2013, 03:10 AM

But Dean aint buryin his Benjamins in Europe He buryin em in his Pasture over by Lexington
Pay tention

They can do it here as well.

Keeping cash on hand is a good idea. Keeping a whole lot of cash on hand is not a good idea.

diverdog

3/18/2013, 03:11 AM

Diver and Mid....if you can honestly say that you could go to bed tonight and wake up having 7-10% of your savings account jacked and be ok with it, I would like you to say that.

I am curious why I am being asked this question. Pretty sure I did not comment in this particular issue.

sappstuf

3/18/2013, 05:17 AM

Robbery would be criminal. This isn't criminal. Property rights only exist when you have a governing set of rules which put them in place, and the extent to which folks have those property rights varies.

The fact is that your average cypriot probably doesn't have $100K in the bank, so it's a 6.7% one time tax of what they have in the bank on any given day, which probably isn't enough to break anyone's bank.

For the criminal organizations and tax cheats out there, I would agree, this is a huge deal for them. Do I feel sorry for them? Not at all. You lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

What assurances can you give that this is a one-time event?

sappstuf

3/18/2013, 06:55 AM

At least we can be assured that this type of thing would happen here.

It is much easier and more subtle to print boatloads of new money and devalue the currency by 10%....

REDREX

3/18/2013, 08:39 AM

I wonder how the rest of the depositers in Europe view this ?----This will not have good results

cleller

3/18/2013, 09:37 AM

These people are a bunch of Cypriots.

FaninAma

3/18/2013, 09:42 AM

Well it looks like the Plunge Protection Team limited the damage to the markets this morning....down less than 0.5%. I wish the bastards would dispense with the charade of the US markets being "free" and just tell us where they want us to invest. We get it. Investment is only allowed in stocks and bonds right now.

olevetonahill

3/18/2013, 10:53 AM

They can do it here as well.

Keeping cash on hand is a good idea. Keeping a whole lot of cash on hand is not a good idea.

Sure they CAN, But tell me, When was the last time this happened here?

FaninAma

3/18/2013, 11:06 AM

At least we can be assured that this type of thing would happen here.

It is much easier and more subtle to print boatloads of new money and devalue the currency by 10%....

That is exactly what has been going on but Cyprus and other countries do not have the luxury of a central bank that can print a much money as it needs.

TheHumanAlphabet

3/18/2013, 11:08 AM

Once again THA has been proven correct...Confiscatory taxes...in the EU (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/18/cypriots-rush-to-pull-money-from-banks-as-eu-takes-aim-at-russian-deposits/). Not far removed from the US as we continue to mint money like no tomorrow and pump the fed while stocks are going up... EU will fail, then the markets crash globally. Continued government spending is not the answer, strong fiscal budget moves to reduce gov't spending and lower taxes are needed to get out of this mess.

SanJoaquinSooner

3/18/2013, 11:39 AM

I've said it since 1996, and I'll say it again: Mason jars. Stuffed to the rim with Benjamins. Buried in the pasture. You're welcome.

PS: What kind of ****ing idiot invests in anything that is "Europe?" Sheez. Reap what ye sow.

Dean, the first year I was eligible to participate in my employee retirement program was in 1986. At that time, there was a stock fund in which I invested with the value of each share $40. A year later, the market crashed and my shares were worth around only $30. It made me depressed to think I lost so much money in one day. But a fellow employee suggested not to worry - that I won't be retiring for 25 or 30 years and this crash will be a small blip on the screen.

Well, today - 27 years later - those shares I paid $40 for, are now valued at $280. If I had put the money is mason jars, they'd still be worth $40.

And as we all know $40 in 2013 is worth less than $40 in 1986 - unless you're buying computer memory.

olevetonahill

3/18/2013, 11:44 AM

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

pphilfran

3/18/2013, 12:01 PM

I don't think this levy, tax, or theft (whichever way you want to look at it) has anything to do with investments...only bank savings and possibly checking accounts....

pphilfran

3/18/2013, 12:04 PM

Mid...I want to make sure that you would be happy if the US decided to take 3 trillion in bank savings (we have a higher per capita income and GDP) from US citizens in one fell swoop...3 trillion would be a comparable number...

Sooner5030

3/18/2013, 08:21 PM

Merikans don't put a lot in 'savings'. But most have some 401ks that could be used (taxed) in the same way.

I mean...if it's for the greater good it is justified.

/liberal

Midtowner

3/18/2013, 08:36 PM

Diver and Mid....if you can honestly say that you could go to bed tonight and wake up having 7-10% of your savings account jacked and be ok with it, I would like you to say that.

If I was holding my funds offshore to dodge the tax system, I'd understand that there's risk when I make a deal with a country which promises lax regulation and promises to help me shelter my money from my nation's tax system.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

3/18/2013, 08:37 PM

Sure they CAN, But tell me, When was the last time this happened here?When was the last time the govt. expropriated 2 car companies, threatened and is in process of the destruction of an entire industry(coal), took over 1/16 of the economy by govt. edict(healthcare industry), or printed massive amounts of money to prop up the stock market and the govt. spending, etc?

Midtowner

3/18/2013, 08:37 PM

What assurances can you give that this is a one-time event?

Oh, I hope it's not. I hope the $1 trillion or so being held by our multinational corporations is suddenly repatriated because of the fact foreign governments might confiscate it.

Midtowner

3/18/2013, 08:37 PM

sappstuf

3/19/2013, 03:43 AM

Oh, I hope it's not. I hope the $1 trillion or so being held by our multinational corporations is suddenly repatriated because of the fact foreign governments might confiscate it.

I'm sure that is comforting to the average Cypriot of whom you were speaking...

The fact is that your average cypriot probably doesn't have $100K in the bank, so it's a 6.7% one time tax of what they have in the bank on any given day, which probably isn't enough to break anyone's bank.

The Russians with real means had their money safely in Dubai before the vote was ever taken...

diverdog

3/19/2013, 06:17 AM

I'm sure that is comforting to the average Cypriot of whom you were speaking...

The Russians with real means had their money safely in Dubai before the vote was ever taken...

I think all of this was a bluff and a shot fired over the bow of Cyprus by the ECB/EU to tell them to get their **** in order. That includes getting rid of some level of corruption and gangster Russian money.

Midtowner

3/19/2013, 09:08 AM

I think all of this was a bluff and a shot fired over the bow of Cyprus by the ECB/EU to tell them to get their **** in order. That includes getting rid of some level of corruption and gangster Russian money.

And what a financial boon this will be to the Cayman banks. Do I see an uptick in Russian travel to the Caribbean in the near future?

Midtowner

3/19/2013, 09:09 AM

The Russians with real means had their money safely in Dubai before the vote was ever taken...

Your evidence for this is what? Healthy skepticism?

pphilfran

3/19/2013, 09:22 AM

And what a financial boon this will be to the Cayman banks. Do I see an uptick in Russian travel to the Caribbean in the near future?
probably

TheHumanAlphabet

3/19/2013, 09:24 AM

Now New Zealand wants to shave the banking accounts... It has only started...

diverdog

3/19/2013, 12:12 PM

And what a financial boon this will be to the Cayman banks. Do I see an uptick in Russian travel to the Caribbean in the near future?

Or Delaware.

pphilfran

3/19/2013, 02:36 PM

Voted down by Parliament...

TheHumanAlphabet

3/19/2013, 04:13 PM

So is the EU gonna kick them out?

Midtowner

3/19/2013, 06:23 PM

So is the EU gonna kick them out?

What happens now is that the national bank will fail, likely causing entitlements and other obligations of the government to go unfunded. There'll be a run on the bank and Cypriots are going to feel pretty bad for not voting for this thing when they lose all of their savings.

I understand the EU guarantees accounts up to 100K Euros.

pphilfran

3/19/2013, 06:29 PM

What happens now is that the national bank will fail, likely causing entitlements and other obligations of the government to go unfunded. There'll be a run on the bank and Cypriots are going to feel pretty bad for not voting for this thing when they lose all of their savings.

I understand the EU guarantees accounts up to 100K Euros.

Hammer hits nail

pphilfran

3/19/2013, 06:30 PM

They do say they have a Plan B....though I haven't seen the thing...

pphilfran

3/19/2013, 06:34 PM

To get the bailout money they need 7 billion US in cash from somewhere...

If they don't then Germany won't agree and then Mid's take hits the road running...

Sooner5030

3/19/2013, 09:00 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JMf_KwQ2Xlk

BigTip

3/19/2013, 09:47 PM

Another reason to buy gold.
Real gold. Not derivatives.

yermom

3/19/2013, 09:57 PM

you know, until it's illegal

BigTip

3/19/2013, 10:14 PM

you know, until it's illegal

That's another advantage. A whole bunch is very easy to hide. From everyone.

sappstuf

3/20/2013, 01:21 AM

Your evidence for this is what? Healthy skepticism?

Rich people can act in ways that regular folks can only dream of.

I would call it a universal truth or common sense..

Talk of Russian oil companies bailing out the banks in exchange for gas rights means that while you think the 10% rule would stick it to those rich Russians, the actual end result is those Russians may actually get richer just from the proposal of the 10% rule.

Unintended consequences...

cleller

3/20/2013, 07:57 AM

SoonerBBall

3/20/2013, 11:14 AM

Nigel Farage video

I love Nigel Farage so much. He is a super pimp.

FaninAma

3/20/2013, 02:14 PM

In that video a few posts up they mentioned that in 2010 deposits into Cyprus banks from Britain were almost double that of Russia. One of the men speaking is a libertarian leaning British Member of European Parliament. (Nigel Farage) He makes his position clear: get your money out of Southern European banks; you've got to be mad to invest in the Euro Zone.

Talk about contagion.

The American and European commodities have been compared to the movie "Speed". If the central bankers take their foot off the peddle the entire mess will blow up. The problem is that Europe looks like it is slowing down despite the ECB pushing the peddle to the floorborad and the US isn't too far behind.

The easy money(i.e. printing) can never, ever be stopped. It is all that is keeping the terminal patient from flatlining. And really, the only thing the Fed is doing is mainlining money into the sytem and getting a knee jerk response from the equity markets. Even that will stop in the near future.

jkjsooner

3/21/2013, 09:05 AM

Dean, the first year I was eligible to participate in my employee retirement program was in 1986. At that time, there was a stock fund in which I invested with the value of each share $40. A year later, the market crashed and my shares were worth around only $30. It made me depressed to think I lost so much money in one day. But a fellow employee suggested not to worry - that I won't be retiring for 25 or 30 years and this crash will be a small blip on the screen.

Well, today - 27 years later - those shares I paid $40 for, are now valued at $280. If I had put the money is mason jars, they'd still be worth $40.

And as we all know $40 in 2013 is worth less than $40 in 1986 - unless you're buying computer memory.

On the other hand, if you did the same thing 13 years ago you'd be about equal to putting your money in a mason jar.

That's one reason I question those who keep harping that we're bound for a decline just because the market is at an all time high. If you adjust for inflation we're way below where we were 13 years ago. If you adjust for the normal market return of 10% per year we're way way way below. (Given, the markets were very bubbly 13 years ago so I'm not saying that is a fair comparison but it does put our all time highs in perspective a bit.)

REDREX

3/21/2013, 02:25 PM

On the other hand, if you did the same thing 13 years ago you'd be about equal to putting your money in a mason jar.

That's one reason I question those who keep harping that we're bound for a decline just because the market is at an all time high. If you adjust for inflation we're way below where we were 13 years ago. If you adjust for the normal market return of 10% per year we're way way way below. (Given, the markets were very bubbly 13 years ago so I'm not saying that is a fair comparison but it does put our all time highs in perspective a bit.)----Normal Market return is no where near 10%----Where did you come up with that number

jkjsooner

3/21/2013, 04:33 PM

----Normal Market return is no where near 10%----Where did you come up with that number

http://observationsandnotes.blogspot.com/2009/03/average-annual-stock-market-return.html

The long-term, more than 100-year performance: Since 1900 (end-of-year 1899),*through 2012, I estimate the average total return/year of the DJIA (Dow Jones Industrial Average) *was approximately 9.4%* -- 4.8% in price appreciation, plus approx 4.6% in dividends.

Or do your own search and take your pick from many sites.

REDREX

3/21/2013, 05:07 PM

http://observationsandnotes.blogspot.com/2009/03/average-annual-stock-market-return.html

Or do your own search and take your pick from many sites.---- http://www.candlestickforum.com/PPF/Parameters/11_1484_/candlestick.asp

cleller

3/21/2013, 07:59 PM

"Past performance is no guarantee of future results" never sounded so haunting.

sappstuf

3/22/2013, 06:28 AM

Jean-Claude Trichet, then-president of the European Central Bank, on January 18, 2008;

For a small, open economy like Cyprus, euro adoption provides protection from international financial turmoil.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/soccer-miss.gif

Swing and a miss!

jkjsooner

3/22/2013, 12:20 PM

---- http://www.candlestickforum.com/PPF/Parameters/11_1484_/candlestick.asp

Nothing in there changes the fact that the long term 100 year average has been almost 10%. There are plenty of low cost funds that mimic various indexes. You called me out and you were wrong.

As for Cleller's past performance future results comment, I never stated otherwise. I personally think our growth prospects in the next century can't match the last century. That said, all I did was put the current all time highs in a little historical perspective and I used the 10% to emphasize this.

I don't have any idea if the market is due for a fall. I am saying that the fact that we're at all time highs is a poor rationale for this belief. Too many people see that we're above levels in the late '90s, remember how bubbly the markets were then, and assume we're there again. They ignore the impact of inflation or how economies have grown since the late '90s. 14000 in 2013 is nowhere near 14000 in 1999.

REDREX

3/22/2013, 02:03 PM

Go read what I posted in is a better explanation of big boy investing than the dribble you posted

jkjsooner

3/22/2013, 02:18 PM

Go read what I posted in is a better explanation of big boy investing than the dribble you posted

I read what you posted. About the only thing relevant that they said is that you're not buying the market. The fact is, if you want to follow the return of the DOW or S&P or whatever index you want there are funds that mimic these returns.

Of course you need to pay attention to what you are actually invested in. Duh! That has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Only one person here posted dribble and it was you.

----Normal Market return is no where near 10%----Where did you come up with that number

You called me out on a stat and you were wrong. I don't know why you can't just admit it.

yermom

3/22/2013, 04:14 PM

Go read what I posted in is a better explanation of big boy investing than the dribble you posted

is that English?

Tulsa_Fireman

3/22/2013, 04:19 PM

I thought it was drivel?

pphilfran

3/23/2013, 05:18 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/23/cyprus-eu-bank-levy-agreement_n_2940459.html

NICOSIA, March 23 (Reuters) - Cyprus has agreed with EU/IMF lenders a 20-percent levy on deposits over 100,000 euros ($130,000) at leading lender Bank of Cyprus and a 4-percent levy on deposits of the same amount at other lenders, a senior Cypriot official said on Saturday.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said a Cypriot plan to tap nationalised pension funds, opposed by Germany, would not be part of a plan to raise billions of euros in return for a bailout from the European Union.

Blue

3/23/2013, 06:57 PM

Govts and banks are nothing but thieves. They won't suffer, but you will.

diverdog

3/24/2013, 07:25 AM

Govts and investment banks are nothing but thieves. They won't suffer, but you will.

FIFY

yermom

3/24/2013, 09:12 AM

there is a difference?

Midtowner

3/24/2013, 10:38 AM

Since the repeal of Glass Steagall, not really. Although I'd feel safer with my money in say, the Oklahoma Employees Credit Union than in CitiBank.

pphilfran

3/24/2013, 11:53 AM

Since the repeal of Glass Steagall, not really. Although I'd feel safer with my money in say, the Oklahoma Employees Credit Union than in CitiBank.

Why? They both have similar fed guarantees...and if they need a bailout then Citi would be one of the first in line as shown in the past....

Midtowner

3/24/2013, 12:47 PM

Why? They both have similar fed guarantees...and if they need a bailout then Citi would be one of the first in line as shown in the past....

True there, but I'd rather not contribute to feeding the beast that is Citi.

pphilfran

3/24/2013, 12:50 PM

True there, but I'd rather not contribute to feeding the beast that is Citi.

That I can understand...

diverdog

3/24/2013, 02:26 PM

there is a difference?

Yes there is.

Here is an article about my companies President.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/opinion/31nocera.html?_r=0

SanJoaquinSooner

3/25/2013, 01:20 AM

Cypus deal done.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100585793

FaninAma

3/25/2013, 10:45 AM

Cypus deal done.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100585793

I don't think the deal bodes well for the banks in Europe especially those in Greece, Italy and Spain. If you have over $100,000 euros in one bank it would be a good idea to look toward moving part of it to another bank.

yermom

3/25/2013, 12:15 PM

Yes there is.

Here is an article about my companies President.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/opinion/31nocera.html?_r=0

sounds like the exception, not the rule... but he pretty much lines out my point :D

sappstuf

4/1/2013, 08:07 AM

Your evidence for this is what? Healthy skepticism?

At the time I answered your question with calling it a universal truth or common sense..

Now I'll answer with this:

Mega-Rich Withdrew Money From Cyprus Before Looting (http://www.infowars.com/mega-rich-withdrew-money-from-cyprus-before-looting/)

News that the Cypriot President’s family moved 21 million euros to London days before the bank accounts of his people were looted as part of the bailout deal serves as another reminder that while the media portrays the victims of the Cyprus “haircut” as the mega rich and wealthy Russian oligarchs, the real victims are middle class families and small business owners.

...

Branches and subsidiaries of Cypriot banks in London and Russia remained open while banks in Cyprus were closed, allowing Russian oligarchs and other wealthy depositors to move their money.