Straight Up Religion Discussion

[SicEmBaylor]

Let's have a straight-up discussion of religion. Share what your personal beliefs are and how those beliefs were formulated. I'll start.

I'm a Deist -- meaning I believe in God as our higher-power. I believe he is the architect of the heaven and Earth. I believe he created man in his image with absolute free-will. I believe he set Earth in motion in such a way that everything happens completely naturally without any input from God himself. What happens happens. I do not believe God inserts himself in our daily lives at any time. For example, prayer is useless because God does not interdict in our behalf. God does not have a plan for us all. Our lives are what we make of it.

So, what is the purpose of life? I believe the purpose of human live is to strive to be more like God since he made us in our image. We do that by seeking to better understand why and how God designed things the way he did. We do that through science and philosophy. The better we understand the universe the better we understand God.

It was a long road for me to get to this point. I was never religious but I was raised by quasi-Methodists (we only really went to church on holidays). There were a lot of things in Christianity that I could simply never accept. The big tenants that I had issues with were the Holy Trinity, salvation, and all sin being equal.

The more I thought of things the more it occurred to me that if God gave us free-will then it would be contradiction to interdict in our lives or to have a plan. Salvation has always struck me as particularly cruel since it would hold that most of the world's population would go straight to hell for failing to accept Jesus Christ as a lord and savior. The idea that all sin is equal is particularly absurd to me. I do believe in heaven and a kind of hell. I think the soul goes to some place after dying, and I believe that "hell" is a personal hell that every soul experiences. Murderers, for example, would be tormented by their bad deeds.

Admittedly, I'm incredibly hostile to organized religion for a number of reasons.

[Blue]

http://www.brookhills.org/new/beliefs.html

Pretty well sums mine up. I believe the bible is the divinely inspired word of God. I know someone will come in and say its been changed over the years but I've researched it and I do not believe it has been. I think my testimony is on a thread posted around here too.

[8timechamps]

I'm pretty much right where you are Sic'Em. Although, there are days I question my own belief.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Do I believe in god? No, so I'm an atheist in that regard.
Is there a god? I don't know, so I'm agnostic in that regard.

[Soonerjeepman]

Catholic, born and raised, but like most I have chosen to follow the faith. I know how you feel about it...

I will add, I believe God has a plan and that doesn't contradict free will...He gives us a path..we choose the forks in the road.

[SicEmBaylor]

I will add, I believe God has a plan and that doesn't contradict free will...He gives us a path..we choose the forks in the road.

I'm genuinely curious about this because it definitely seems to be a contradiction, and I don't believe God does contradictions. If God has a plan yet you still have free will then what exactly is the plan? The only "plan" I believe in is that God expects you to exercise your free will. Now, it could be I suppose that God has a plan he would like for you to follow yet it's still your choice, but I don't exactly see the point in that.

Ultimately, the only thing I think God expects of us is to use our free will in such a way that we live good decent lives. I believe the path he has set before us is to use our free will to become the best possible individual we can. When we let ourselves down we let God down as a consequence.

[Blue]

Catholic, born and raised, but like most I have chosen to follow the faith. I know how you feel about it...

I will add, I believe God has a plan and that doesn't contradict free will...He gives us a path..we choose the forks in the road.

I find myself to be a little more on the calvinistic side. Free will yes, but he knew us before we were born and ultimately knows where we will go.

Not to say we should sit on the sidelines and do nothing, but all of our evangelism is part of his plan.

[Blue]

Man will always worship something (money, themselves) and try to create their own gods. We all bow to someone or something. If I didn't believe the words in the gospels were that of God himself, I wouldn't worry with any of it.

[East Coast Bias]

Personally don't believe there is a God. The possibility is there, the only logical argument I entertain is that we don't have the ability to comprehend what that might be. For me, raised in a family of Baptist preachers, religion is comfort for those that need it and I respect those that have that need. Christianity is far removed from the gospel of Jesus, is more about Paul and his interpretations. I would rule out any religion that doesn't include all of humanity in its plan and what is left after that? I don't believe If there is a God he has a plan, and the meaning of life is whatever you need it to be. I do believe we have a spiritual nature that separates us from other animals and can develope that in other realms. Once we sufficiently develop spiritually we may morph into higher beings.
I believe most of today's religion will end up as mythology did as our intellect grows and some of this crap sees the light of day. We need a new religious model at this point and I believe that is coming. It revolves around all of us as "one".

[Turd_Ferguson]

Personally don't believe there is a God. The possibility is there, the only logical argument I entertain is that we don't have the ability to comprehend what that might be. For me, raised in a family of Baptist preachers, religion is comfort for those that need it and I respect those that have that need. Christianity is far removed from the gospel of Jesus, is more about Paul and his interpretations. I would rule out any religion that doesn't include all of humanity in its plan and what is left after that? I don't believe If there is a God he has a plan, and the meaning of life is whatever you need it to be. I do believe we have a spiritual nature that separates us from other animals and can develope that in other realms. Once we sufficiently develop spiritually we may morph into higher beings.
I believe most of today's religion will end up as mythology did as our intellect grows and some of this crap sees the light of day. We need a new religious model at this point and I believe that is coming. It revolves around all of us as "one".

You sound like you have the ghey jeans...

[diverdog]

If there is a god he/she/it is so far beyond our comprehension that we would understand very little about them. It would be like a virus trying to talk to Einstein.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I will add, I believe God has a plan and that doesn't contradict free will...He gives us a path..we choose the forks in the road.

I had a plan early in life to be an astronaut..I'm an IT system admin...Because I am an IT system admin does not mean I did not have a plan to be an astronaut. I just made choices that directed me down this path.

I plan for my kids to be successful in life..I'm giving them every thing that they need to fulfill this plan..But my plan does not mean these things will happen because I planned them.

[tator]

Do I believe in god? No, so I'm an atheist in that regard.
Is there a god? I don't know, so I'm agnostic in that regard.

I agree with this.

[Midtowner]

Personally don't believe there is a God. The possibility is there, the only logical argument I entertain is that we don't have the ability to comprehend what that might be. For me, raised in a family of Baptist preachers, religion is comfort for those that need it and I respect those that have that need. Christianity is far removed from the gospel of Jesus, is more about Paul and his interpretations. I would rule out any religion that doesn't include all of humanity in its plan and what is left after that? I don't believe If there is a God he has a plan, and the meaning of life is whatever you need it to be. I do believe we have a spiritual nature that separates us from other animals and can develope that in other realms. Once we sufficiently develop spiritually we may morph into higher beings.
I believe most of today's religion will end up as mythology did as our intellect grows and some of this crap sees the light of day. We need a new religious model at this point and I believe that is coming. It revolves around all of us as "one".

Some good thoughts.

The concept of God as some being which cares about our sins and loves us all unconditionally, but is also vain and requires our approval and adoration seems to be a very medieval/ancient concept.

The Bible teaches a good message, but very few professed Christians resemble anything their Christ would have wanted. Especially social conservatives.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I see no proof of God's nature other than the Incomprehensible Mystery of the existence of all things, especially the Beginning. Of course, that act is quite a doozy, ain't it?

[XingTheRubicon]

I believe God only unconditionally loves family pets.

[SoonerorLater]

I have asked this question before. If not God how are we all typing on our keyboards? What's the nexus of our existence? I have never understood the concept of atheism. To me it's odd that we have such a vocal group in this country defined solely by what they don't believe.

[Midtowner]

I don't see your logic. Because we did not observe the first thing and currently only have a number of theories as to why and how and such, there must be a God and everything in the Bible is true and the Earth is 6,000 years old and radiocarbon dating is a hoax and evilution is a hoax, etc.? Is that where you're going? Or is it just more of an Aquinas Ontological Argument?

You have to be vocal when the majority is attempting to infringe on your right to be left alone by religious zealots or worse, to fund their activities through your tax dollars.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

To me it's odd that we have such a vocal group in this country defined solely by what they don't believe.Their (unmentioned)Statism fills the void.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I'm putting the over/under at 7.5 pages. Name calling begins at 1.5 pages. Hell it may have already begun.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm putting the over/under at 7.5 pages. Name calling begins at 1.5 pages. Hell it may have already begun.no God(gods)?

[SoonerBBall]

I have asked this question before. If not God how are we all typing on our keyboards? What's the nexus of our existence? I have never understood the concept of atheism. To me it's odd that we have such a vocal group in this country defined solely by what they don't believe.

It's okay to question the nature of our existence. It is part of the human condition. If you want to attribute it to a God that has a plan for you typing on your keyboard, that is fine with me. I am a Deist, much like Sic'em described.

It is not, however, a good reason to infringe upon the rights and beliefs of others just because they differ from your own. That is my problem with "Christians" these days. They don't resemble Christ in the least. Fretting over who someone else has sex with, what god they choose to worship, or what they do with their body shouldn't be your business because it doesn't affect you. By the way, this second paragraph is not directed at you particularly SoonerorLater, I quoted you for the first part. The second part is just my problem with the US in general these days when it comes to religion.

[StoopTroup]

I'm genuinely curious about this because it definitely seems to be a contradiction, and I don't believe God does contradictions. If God has a plan yet you still have free will then what exactly is the plan? The only "plan" I believe in is that God expects you to exercise your free will. Now, it could be I suppose that God has a plan he would like for you to follow yet it's still your choice, but I don't exactly see the point in that.

Ultimately, the only thing I think God expects of us is to use our free will in such a way that we live good decent lives. I believe the path he has set before us is to use our free will to become the best possible individual we can. When we let ourselves down we let God down as a consequence.

The Roman Catholic Church has a program called RCIA. I would suggest you find a younger Priest (Someone your age) that has grown up in the same era you have. If you have a friend who is Catholic and willing to be your sponsor, I think that's the best scenario but if you don't the Parishioners at the Church you attend RCIA Classes at can help you and find you a Sponsor. There is always good people who will go with you once a week to the classes. I think it's usually best to go through Classes that will end at The Easter Vigil as I think it's the best time to decide whether or not to become Catholic as you will find so many folks who will really look to help you in your journey in Faith.

Just my 2 cents.

You can always begin at any time though. As we now are looking to find another Pope, it's a very special times for Catholics. We have begun the 40 day period of Lent that ends at Easter.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Traditional social values bother some more than authoritarian socialism/fascism, it seems. Interesting when considering replacing religions such as those with which we're familiar, with government.

[SicEmBaylor]

Traditional social values bother some more than authoritarian socialism/fascism, it seems. Interesting when considering replacing religions such as those with which we're familiar, with government.
You seem to be completely discounting the evangelical right which is fixated upon using Federal power and authority to spread and establish their dogmatic view of the world forcing everyone to obey their theological tenants via the force of law. The far-right are some of the biggest statists in this country which is why their influence within the party needs to be severely curtailed. I don't want to turn a religious discussion into a political one, but you honestly need to wake up to the theological-socialism rampant within your own ranks.

I have a big issue with anyone who believes it is acceptable to use the power of government and the force of law to compel others into accepting and following their point of view. This is a problem on both sides of the spectrum, and as far as our side goes it absolutely has to be stopped.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You seem to be completely discounting the evangelical right which is fixated upon using Federal power and authority to spread and establish their dogmatic view of the world forcing everyone to obey their theological tenants via the force of law. The far-right are some of the biggest statists in this country which is why their influence within the party needs to be severely curtailed. I don't want to turn a religious discussion into a political one, but you honestly need to wake up to the theological-socialism rampant within your own ranks.

I have a big issue with anyone who believes it is acceptable to use the power of government and the force of law to compel others into accepting and following their point of view. This is a problem on both sides of the spectrum, and as far as our side goes it absolutely has to be stopped.you are describing a bogeyman which a lot of folks have come to believe and fear. I just find it nonsensical to fear what you fear more than the actuality of what is happening now, in our country, with the power of the state growing monumentally, and the country becoming more out of control economically as the govt. taxes, borrows, prints and SPENDS at an astronomical level

[Soonerjeepman]

The Roman Catholic Church has a program called RCIA. I would suggest you find a younger Priest (Someone your age) that has grown up in the same era you have. If you have a friend who is Catholic and willing to be your sponsor, I think that's the best scenario but if you don't the Parishioners at the Church you attend RCIA Classes at can help you and find you a Sponsor. There is always good people who will go with you once a week to the classes. I think it's usually best to go through Classes that will end at The Easter Vigil as I think it's the best time to decide whether or not to become Catholic as you will find so many folks who will really look to help you in your journey in Faith.

Just my 2 cents.

You can always begin at any time though. As we now are looking to find another Pope, it's a very special times for Catholics. We have begun the 40 day period of Lent that ends at Easter.

lol..not sure sic wants to become Catholic...from his other posts he's pretty much against the Church..and no I didn't read any further posts to see if he responded...apologize if he did.

edit..lol just saw it was only a few posts down.

[SoonerorLater]

You seem to be completely discounting the evangelical right which is fixated upon using Federal power and authority to spread and establish their dogmatic view of the world forcing everyone to obey their theological tenants via the force of law. The far-right are some of the biggest statists in this country which is why their influence within the party needs to be severely curtailed. I don't want to turn a religious discussion into a political one, but you honestly need to wake up to the theological-socialism rampant within your own ranks.

I have a big issue with anyone who believes it is acceptable to use the power of government and the force of law to compel others into accepting and following their point of view. This is a problem on both sides of the spectrum, and as far as our side goes it absolutely has to be stopped.

But that is exactly the way this country works. It's the way it should work. Everybody trying to shape the US into their vision. The constitution is supposed to set the boundries of how far we can go in any direction trying to do that. That is why a strict interpretation is so important.

Where do you draw the line as to religion vs statism? For instance "thou shall not kill" Should we consider murder laws an overstep of religion? How about "thou shall not commit adultry". What would be the difference from a purely theoretical viewpoint?

[SoonerBBall]

you are describing a bogeyman which a lot of folks have come to believe and fear. I just find it nonsensical to fear what you fear more than the actuality of what is happening now, in our country, with the power of the state growing monumentally, and the country becoming more out of control economically as the govt. taxes, borrows, prints and SPENDS at an astronomical level

Your definition of boogeyman differs greatly from mine. Admittedly, what is happening under our leaders today is terrible, but to act like the right has been any less terrible is foolish in the extreme.

[SicEmBaylor]

But that is exactly the way this country works. It's the way it should work. Everybody trying to shape the US into their vision. The constitution is supposed to set the boundries of how far we can go in any direction trying to do that. That is why a strict interpretation is so important.

Where do you draw the line as to religion vs statism? For instance "thou shall not kill" Should we consider murder laws an overstep of religion? How about "thou shall not commit adultry". What would be the difference from a purely theoretical viewpoint?

The purpose of the US Constitution is to protect liberty and enumerate/restrict the powers of the Federal government; namely, the protection of life, liberty, and property. The illegality of murder rests with the fact that it deprives a person of all three of those things. Adultery, on the other hand, is purely a theological matter and an issue to be settled between spouses, their church, their own personal morality, and their god.

[SicEmBaylor]

you are describing a bogeyman which a lot of folks have come to believe and fear. I just find it nonsensical to fear what you fear more than the actuality of what is happening now, in our country, with the power of the state growing monumentally, and the country becoming more out of control economically as the govt. taxes, borrows, prints and SPENDS at an astronomical level

....and you still refuse to acknowledge the fact that the right has plenty of people wanting to use the power of the Federal government to impose their will on the rest of us. You'll never see it or acknowledge it no matter how many times it is staring you right in the face.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Your definition of boogeyman differs greatly from mine. Admittedly, what is happening under our leaders today is terrible, but to act like the right has been any less terrible is FOOLISH in the extreme.Thanks for the namecalling, and I will only say that I think you are wrong about religious Christians and Jews being ANYWHERE near as dangerous to the country as those who are willing to scrap our Constitution, and the laws of our land.

[SicEmBaylor]

lol..not sure sic wants to become Catholic...from his other posts he's pretty much against the Church..and no I didn't read any further posts to see if he responded...apologize if he did.

edit..lol just saw it was only a few posts down.
I detest everything about the Catholic church.

[jk the sooner fan]

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholic* Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.


* universal

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

....and you still refuse to acknowledge the fact that the right has plenty of people wanting to use the power of the Federal government to impose their will on the rest of us. You'll never see it or acknowledge it no matter how many times it is staring you right in the face.Sorry, I totally disagree. We are RIGHT NOW experiencing something unlike we've faced since the days of before the founding of the country. A shutting down of our rights as Americans, and scrapping of the country that has brought greater peace and prosperity to the world than any other in history.

[SicEmBaylor]

The Roman Catholic Church has a program called RCIA. I would suggest you find a younger Priest (Someone your age) that has grown up in the same era you have. If you have a friend who is Catholic and willing to be your sponsor, I think that's the best scenario but if you don't the Parishioners at the Church you attend RCIA Classes at can help you and find you a Sponsor. There is always good people who will go with you once a week to the classes. I think it's usually best to go through Classes that will end at The Easter Vigil as I think it's the best time to decide whether or not to become Catholic as you will find so many folks who will really look to help you in your journey in Faith.

Just my 2 cents.

You can always begin at any time though. As we now are looking to find another Pope, it's a very special times for Catholics. We have begun the 40 day period of Lent that ends at Easter.
The Catholic Church repulses me. I appreciate what you said, but I have no intention of doing anything of the sort whether it be with the Catholic Church or a protestant denomination.

I'm very comfortable with my religious beliefs. It took me a long time to get here, but now that I'm here I'm very much settled and at peace with it. I am a firm believer in God, but I am not a Christian. I think Christian morality has a lot of merit, but I don't believe Jesus was the son of God nor do I believe that accepting that fact is the only way a person may enter heaven. In this, I closely mirror Jefferson's own Christian-Deism views.

The Christian view of God pretty much makes him out to be an *******. Any God that demands I worship him or else doomed to a fiery hell is something of a jerk. More to the point, there is nothing I hate more than when a small child dies or someone passes early and they tell those grieving that it was all in "God's plan." Really? God's plan was for a small 4 year old child to suffer their entire lives with cancer or other disease and then have them pass away in pain? That's one major league ********* of a God.

The better explanation is that bad things just happen. Good things just happen as well. I hate seeing on facebook when a person gets a job and they praise God for it -- God didn't give you that job. You got that job because of YOUR accomplishments. God did not create the world only to serve as humanity's puppetmaster. He created us in his image so that he could see what we'd make of our lives completely independent of any action on his part.

The way to get in God's grace is to simply live our lives well and not via some slavish devotion to dogmatic theology. Now, if going to Church and strictly observing your own church's theology is the best way for you to live your life well and provide you with structure then more power to you. I simply wish for recognition of the fact that no one way is the right way.

[SicEmBaylor]

Sorry, I totally disagree. We are RIGHT NOW experiencing something unlike we've faced since the days of before the founding of the country. A shutting down of our rights as Americans, and scrapping of the country that has brought greater peace and prosperity to the world than any other in history.
This is also nonsense. This isn't anywhere near the biggest threat to our liberty in the history of the Republic. This is the 3rd biggest threat to our liberty in history. And this threat comes not just from the President but from those on the right willing to sacrifice our civil liberties. You can bury your head in the sand all you want but that doesn't change facts. And you're so f'n bullheaded about it that you'll never ever see the light. You'll continue marching to the GOP's talking points like a good robotic soldier and no effort in reasoning with you will ever do any good.

[Soonerjeepman]

The purpose of the US Constitution is to protect liberty and enumerate/restrict the powers of the Federal government; namely, the protection of life, liberty, and property. The illegality of murder rests with the fact that it deprives a person of all three of those things. .

Most Christians arguments against abortion...just saying. Obviously the difference is the beginning of life. I'm assuming you are good with outlawing abortions for anything over 2nd trimester, at the least?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

More to the point, there is nothing I hate more than when a small child dies or someone passes early and they tell those grieving that it was all in "God's plan." Really? God's plan was for a small 4 year old child to suffer their entire lives with cancer or other disease and then have them pass away in pain? That's one major league ********* of a God.


I completely agree with this..And I don't understand this line of thinking as a life long follower of Christ..I don't really use the term Christian as it's more tied to politics than Christ lately.

People say these things thinking that it helps someone deal with the situation, but in the end, it puts people at odds with God.

I had a teenager in my youth group a few years back get drunk, drive his truck off of a bridge, and died.. Another minister there told me "Well, it was God's plan."..so then I posed the questions back, "So God purchased whiskey for him, convinced him to drink excessively, and then pushed the truck off the road?"...People I guess need deep answers when really it was bad choices that caused it.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Name calling or insults are really not necessary at all from anyone.

[SicEmBaylor]

[/B]

Most Christians arguments against abortion...just saying. Obviously the difference is the beginning of life. I'm assuming you are good with outlawing abortions for anything over 2nd trimester, at the least?

I'm opposed to any Federal restriction on abortion since abortion, specifically, is not an enumerated power of the Federal government; therefore, it's entirely a state question.

As to the policy I'd support on the state level, yes I'd be in favor of outlawing abortion during the 2nd/3rd trimester. It shouldn't take that long for a woman to decide if she wants the pregnancy or not.

The crux of the argument is when life begins. Most reasonable people should agree that a fetus is definitely alive when you can see that it has a head, two arms, two legs, etc. etc.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

...this threat comes not just from the President but from those on the right willing to sacrifice our civil liberties. We will watch the country go down and out with you believing that. If you or anyone thinks what we're experiencing now is no worse than the government we've had for well over 200 years, then I guess they(you) will be happy with the results.

[SicEmBaylor]

We will watch the country go down and out with you believing that. If you or anyone thinks what we're experiencing now is no worse than the government we've had for well over 200 years, then I guess they(you) will be happy with the results.
I'm sure we will continue to argue these points elsewhere, but let's keep the thread about religion.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm sure we will continue to argue these points elsewhere, but let's keep the thread about religion.We'll likely never comprehend infinity. what else you got to say about religion?

[StoopTroup]

lol..not sure sic wants to become Catholic...from his other posts he's pretty much against the Church..and no I didn't read any further posts to see if he responded...apologize if he did.

edit..lol just saw it was only a few posts down.

I figured he might want to take a course that is sanctioned by the largest Religion in the World and have a discussion with a Priest who is very well educated in such issues. I know he's tried to educate himself so if he has these issues...who better to talk to about them than someone who deals with such things on a daily basis.

Also Jeepman....RCIA doesn't mean you are going to become Catholic. It's a course the Church requires you to take before deciding whether Catholicism is right for you. They are very helpful for people like SicEm who seem to have a lot of issues with Religion or believe in the things he said he believes in. I don't think it's that much of an issue if he really believes in the things he does from becoming Catholic. There are plenty of very educated Scientists and Philosophers who are Catholic.

[StoopTroup]

I'm opposed to any Federal restriction on abortion since abortion, specifically, is not an enumerated power of the Federal government; therefore, it's entirely a state question.

As to the policy I'd support on the state level, yes I'd be in favor of outlawing abortion during the 2nd/3rd trimester. It shouldn't take that long for a woman to decide if she wants the pregnancy or not.

The crux of the argument is when life begins. Most reasonable people should agree that a fetus is definitely alive when you can see that it has a head, two arms, two legs, etc. etc.

What about a Heartbeat?

[SicEmBaylor]

What about a Heartbeat?

Not necessarily, no.

[SicEmBaylor]

I figured he might want to take a course that is sanctioned by the largest Religion in the World and have a discussion with a Priest who is very well educated in such issues. I know he's tried to educate himself so if he has these issues...who better to talk to about them than someone who deals with such things on a daily basis.

Also Jeepman....RCIA doesn't mean you are going to become Catholic. It's a course the Church requires you to take before deciding whether Catholicism is right for you. They are very helpful for people like SicEm who seem to have a lot of issues with Religion or believe in the things he said he believes in. I don't think it's that much of an issue if he really believes in the things he does from becoming Catholic. There are plenty of very educated Scientists and Philosophers who are Catholic.

Again, I detest everything about the Catholic church and have ZERO interest in discussing or being diddly-daddled by a priest.

If I were struggling with my faith then your suggestion would have some merit, but I don't see the need to discuss anything with the papists. If I were struggling, they're sure as hell not the first people I'd turn to.

[StoopTroup]

Why bring it up if you weren't struggling?

Also...one thing you should notice about me is that I never really bad mouth anyone's religion.

I think you'll find most of the Priests are this way too. Now there has been more of a move by some Catholics as well as the Priests to learn to try and have civil discussions with those who always focus on the negatives of the Church. The Problems with Priests who deserve to be in jail rather than moved to another Parish have been addressed by the members of the affected Parishes and the Church has moved away from staying quiet about it all too.

Like Jesus said....those who are without sin....cast the first stone.

I think many folks like you have no idea what being Catholic is and unless you are open to why some of us don't follow your direction of creating your own religion....you never will. You will just continue in life with a chip on your shoulder about people who really only wish you well and hope you someday will consider a life of service to others via The Church.

Maybe you will someday decide Notre Dame is a good place to finish your Education. I could see you in a collar someday. :wink:

[Soonerjeepman]

I figured he might want to take a course that is sanctioned by the largest Religion in the World and have a discussion with a Priest who is very well educated in such issues. I know he's tried to educate himself so if he has these issues...who better to talk to about them than someone who deals with such things on a daily basis.

Also Jeepman....RCIA doesn't mean you are going to become Catholic. It's a course the Church requires you to take before deciding whether Catholicism is right for you. They are very helpful for people like SicEm who seem to have a lot of issues with Religion or believe in the things he said he believes in. I don't think it's that much of an issue if he really believes in the things he does from becoming Catholic. There are plenty of very educated Scientists and Philosophers who are Catholic.

ST...ummm, I know, I'm Catholic. GF takin RICA ;-) I have had "discussions" with him...and as he said, he detest the Catholic church...

[Soonerjeepman]

Again, I detest everything about the Catholic church and have ZERO interest in discussing or being diddly-daddled by a priest.

If I were struggling with my faith then your suggestion would have some merit, but I don't see the need to discuss anything with the papists. If I were struggling, they're sure as hell not the first people I'd turn to.

Ah true to form Sic...true to form.

BTW, got the rep...ya got your opinion, I got mine..nothing I would say on an internet site would change a thing. Not worth gettin all worked up about it (sometimes~) No need for me to go all crazy in defending the Church..or my faith.

[FaninAma]

It's okay to question the nature of our existence. It is part of the human condition. If you want to attribute it to a God that has a plan for you typing on your keyboard, that is fine with me. I am a Deist, much like Sic'em described.

It is not, however, a good reason to infringe upon the rights and beliefs of others just because they differ from your own. That is my problem with "Christians" these days. They don't resemble Christ in the least. Fretting over who someone else has sex with, what god they choose to worship, or what they do with their body shouldn't be your business because it doesn't affect you. By the way, this second paragraph is not directed at you particularly SoonerorLater, I quoted you for the first part. The second part is just my problem with the US in general these days when it comes to religion.

I get a little weary listening to this line of thought. Christians and every other religion has just as much right to participate in the democratic process as atheists, agnostics and deists do. It would seem a lot of those on the left just want them to shut up and not exercise their freedom of speech or otherwise participate in the political process.

[East Coast Bias]

Seeing Stoop trying to get Sicem to consult a priest for some in-depth training has a pretty high entertainment value....

[StoopTroup]

ST...ummm, I know, I'm Catholic. GF takin RICA ;-) I have had "discussions" with him...and as he said, he detest the Catholic church...

I understand. Don't you think it could Teachers, Professors and Paintball Gunnies who have helped mold him into detesting a very large group of people who have nothing but Love in their hearts and Peace and goodwill towards him. Why not take a few nights over a few weeks to look into our Religion. It's like he's scared he'll be sucked into some sort of Cult. I think it will help him decide if he really is what he thinks he is.

[StoopTroup]

Seeing Stoop trying to get Sicem to consult a priest for some in-depth training has a pretty high entertainment value....

:D

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZwqgGivmIWk/TuoOeljrAYI/AAAAAAAAA5w/LmOno4z45vo/s1600/bread_and_wine-_artistic_kjyl.jpg

[StoopTroup]

Pope Gregory

http://www.philomena.org/images/GregoryXVI.png

[SicEmBaylor]

Why bring it up if you weren't struggling?

Also...one thing you should notice about me is that I never really bad mouth anyone's religion.
You bad mouth everything else, so I wouldn't let religion stop you. I brought this up and started the thread because I was just curious as to what everyone believes. I wasn't looking for salvation.


I think you'll find most of the Priests are this way too. Now there has been more of a move by some Catholics as well as the Priests to learn to try and have civil discussions with those who always focus on the negatives of the Church. The Problems with Priests who deserve to be in jail rather than moved to another Parish have been addressed by the members of the affected Parishes and the Church has moved away from staying quiet about it all too.

Like Jesus said....those who are without sin....cast the first stone.

I think many folks like you have no idea what being Catholic is and unless you are open to why some of us don't follow your direction of creating your own religion....you never will. You will just continue in life with a chip on your shoulder about people who really only wish you well and hope you someday will consider a life of service to others via The Church.

Maybe you will someday decide Notre Dame is a good place to finish your Education. I could see you in a collar someday. :wink:

I've discussed my problems with the Catholic Church elsewhere many times. This thread isn't really for that, so I'm not going to get into the weeds with you on my issues with the Catholic Church as an institution.

Now, as for "creating my own religion", I've done nothing of the sort. I'm a Deist and Deists have been around for hundreds of years. Many of our Founding Fathers were Deists. I'm not exactly sure I'd even characterize Deism as a religion but for lack of a better term we can go with it.

[SicEmBaylor]

I understand. Don't you think it could Teachers, Professors and Paintball Gunnies who have helped mold him into detesting a very large group of people who have nothing but Love in their hearts and Peace and goodwill towards him. Why not take a few nights over a few weeks to look into our Religion. It's like he's scared he'll be sucked into some sort of Cult. I think it will help him decide if he really is what he thinks he is.

I find the notion that I haven't "looked into" Catholicism to be humorous. I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about in the first line of your post. I honestly don't know if you're saying those people helped turn me into a Deist (they did not) or if you're saying that many of those people are Catholics who love and care about me (which is very true). If it's the latter, I like the individuals just fine -- it's the Catholic Church as an institution that I don't like. It isn't even really about the theology.

Which brings me back to saying let's keep this about people sharing their own beliefs. I actually had no idea you were Catholic, ST. Maybe that's why your posts are often so nonsensical...perhaps your first language is Latin. ;)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Seeing Stoop trying to get Sicem to consult a priest for some in-depth training has a pretty high entertainment value....it surprised heck out of me.

[Soonerjeepman]

I understand. Don't you think it could Teachers, Professors and Paintball Gunnies who have helped mold him into detesting a very large group of people who have nothing but Love in their hearts and Peace and goodwill towards him. Why not take a few nights over a few weeks to look into our Religion. It's like he's scared he'll be sucked into some sort of Cult. I think it will help him decide if he really is what he thinks he is.

lol...that reminds me...a girl I dated in college...her mom thought I was in a cult (Catholicism...)

[Soonerjeepman]

I get a little weary listening to this line of thought. Christians and every other religion has just as much right to participate in the democratic process as atheists, agnostics and deists do. It would seem a lot of those on the left just want them to shut up and not exercise their freedom of speech or otherwise participate in the political process.

no doubt...

[jk the sooner fan]

newsflash - there has never been a time in the history of man where Christians as a group - resemble Christ. It's never happened, and never will. It's a convenient out for those who need one...."i can't follow that religion because the followers are hypocrites"

yes, that is the very nature of sin - we all (those of us who believe) fall short...some of us fall in glorious public fashion and others fall in more subtle quiet ways - but every one of us fall.....repeatedly, daily

there's a big difference between "religion" and "faith".....Faith is from God and religion is a man made creation.

my issue with the notion of Deism is that man gets to shape God.....put 10 deists in a room together and you'll get 10 different ideas of what God is or who he is.

if thats what you believe, then so be it - i dont personally prescribe to that line of belief.

If you've never read the bible or read any of the Christian classics - books that dive deep into theology - then i'm not sure how I can understand how you can discount Christianity because of the flaws of its followers or the logic that you disagree with - but again - thats your option

read the book of Acts - christianity did not exist until after Christ died and the Holy Spirit had a meet and greet with the Apostles and then later the conversion of Saul/Paul........but within 300 years after the resurrection - the "religion" spread all over parts of the world where it never spread before - to people who had no interest in such a God. i personally find that to be faith inspired.

The bible requires reading and study to understand it......a casual glance now and then, and you'll never "get it."

anyway - thats what I have to say about my faith.....if you have an issue with Christianity because of Christians - well, welcome to reality

[SicEmBaylor]

Other than Hubs, I'm not sure there are any Mormons who post here. I may be wrong.

I actually have a lot of respect for Mormons and Mormonism. I've never met a Mormon I didn't like and those people truly put their money where their mouth is. I'm not saying I subscribe to their theology, but I have no beef with Mormons or Mormonism.

[Blue]

The Catholic Church repulses me. I appreciate what you said, but I have no intention of doing anything of the sort whether it be with the Catholic Church or a protestant denomination.

I'm very comfortable with my religious beliefs. It took me a long time to get here, but now that I'm here I'm very much settled and at peace with it. I am a firm believer in God, but I am not a Christian. I think Christian morality has a lot of merit, but I don't believe Jesus was the son of God nor do I believe that accepting that fact is the only way a person may enter heaven. In this, I closely mirror Jefferson's own Christian-Deism views.

The Christian view of God pretty much makes him out to be an *******. Any God that demands I worship him or else doomed to a fiery hell is something of a jerk. More to the point, there is nothing I hate more than when a small child dies or someone passes early and they tell those grieving that it was all in "God's plan." Really? God's plan was for a small 4 year old child to suffer their entire lives with cancer or other disease and then have them pass away in pain? That's one major league ********* of a God.

The better explanation is that bad things just happen. Good things just happen as well. I hate seeing on facebook when a person gets a job and they praise God for it -- God didn't give you that job. You got that job because of YOUR accomplishments. God did not create the world only to serve as humanity's puppetmaster. He created us in his image so that he could see what we'd make of our lives completely independent of any action on his part.

The way to get in God's grace is to simply live our lives well and not via some slavish devotion to dogmatic theology. Now, if going to Church and strictly observing your own church's theology is the best way for you to live your life well and provide you with structure then more power to you. I simply wish for recognition of the fact that no one way is the right way.

nm.

[Blue]

nm

[Blue]

newsflash - there has never been a time in the history of man where Christians as a group - resemble Christ. It's never happened, and never will. It's a convenient out for those who need one...."i can't follow that religion because the followers are hypocrites"

yes, that is the very nature of sin - we all (those of us who believe) fall short...some of us fall in glorious public fashion and others fall in more subtle quiet ways - but every one of us fall.....repeatedly, daily

there's a big difference between "religion" and "faith".....Faith is from God and religion is a man made creation.

my issue with the notion of Deism is that man gets to shape God.....put 10 deists in a room together and you'll get 10 different ideas of what God is or who he is.

if thats what you believe, then so be it - i dont personally prescribe to that line of belief.

If you've never read the bible or read any of the Christian classics - books that dive deep into theology - then i'm not sure how I can understand how you can discount Christianity because of the flaws of its followers or the logic that you disagree with - but again - thats your option

read the book of Acts - christianity did not exist until after Christ died and the Holy Spirit had a meet and greet with the Apostles and then later the conversion of Saul/Paul........but within 300 years after the resurrection - the "religion" spread all over parts of the world where it never spread before - to people who had no interest in such a God. i personally find that to be faith inspired.

The bible requires reading and study to understand it......a casual glance now and then, and you'll never "get it."

anyway - thats what I have to say about my faith.....if you have an issue with Christianity because of Christians - well, welcome to reality

GREAT POST. Should've read that before responding.

[diverdog]

GREAT POST. Should've read that before responding.

LOL

shoot first ask questions later.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

And just a reminder to all of you self worshiping egomaniacs (including myself), God does not owe you any explanation whatsoever. Who do you think you are?...

...God wants to meet you.This is such a warm and fuzzy message, it makes one want to break on through to the other side.

[Blue]

This is such a warm and fuzzy message, it makes one want to break on through to the other side.
Well despite my lack of warm fuzziness...the truth is the truth. God is smarter than you (Hard to believe huh?), and he loves you. Apart from him we are nothing and can do nothing.

[diverdog]

ST...ummm, I know, I'm Catholic. GF takin RICA ;-) I have had "discussions" with him...and as he said, he detest the Catholic church...

The whole time I am reading this thread I am thinking your girlfriend is a Puerto Rican? Cause up here some folks call them Ricans. Figuring folks in Kansas are slightly dumber than the average NYer I just assumed you left of the " n". And I am wondering what this has to do with chit from shinola other than she is a good lay (I will never forgive you for bragging about that you bastard) and a Puerto Rican. Now I think I understand you are talking about RCIA....Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults in the Catholic Church which has nothing to do with your GF being Puerto Rican or a good lay.

You have to get up pretty early to pull the wool over ole DD's eyes! :)

PS. When she learns about Catholic birth control your days of a care free sex are numbered. You will be just like the rest of schmucks. SEXLESS. So you have that to look forward to. LMAO

[Chuck Bao]

I often joke that I'm a Buddhist-Baptist, but really I'm just an existentialist. I don't think I terribly violate either religious faith and tenets by agreeing with Kierkegaard that each individual is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely. I do fail and fall far from the grace of God, but that is between God and me with nobody else in the position to judge.

[diverdog]

I often joke that I'm a Buddhist-Baptist, but really I'm just an existentialist. I don't think I terribly violate either religious faith and tenets by agreeing with Kierkegaard that each individual is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely. I do fail and fall far from the grace of God, but that is between God and me with nobody else in the position to judge.

8x-nQ-vPw5k

[SicEmBaylor]

It took you a long time to get there huh? Well it's Garbage. Its your own man made idol of a religion. It means squat.

Again, I didn't make it up. Its been around for hundreds of years. It is no more nor more less garbage than anyone else's beliefs.

[SicEmBaylor]

Well despite my lack of warm fuzziness...the truth is the truth. God is smarter than you (Hard to believe huh?), and he loves you. Apart from him we are nothing and can do nothing.

He loves you so much that if you don't worship him in just the right way then you're cast into fire and brimstone.

[jk the sooner fan]

He loves you so much that if you don't worship him in just the right way then you're cast into fire and brimstone.

fire and brimstone are words from a sermon

if you actually read the book the faith is based on, you might have a better formed opinion

[olevetonahill]

I often joke that I'm a Buddhist-Baptist, but really I'm just an existentialist. I don't think I terribly violate either religious faith and tenets by agreeing with Kierkegaard that each individual is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely. I do fail and fall far from the grace of God, but that is between God and me with nobody else in the position to judge.

In that you are spot on bro
Philippians 2;12

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[yermom]

fire and brimstone are words from a sermon

if you actually read the book the faith is based on, you might have a better formed opinion

http://bible.cc/revelation/21-8.htm

i'm sure i'm taking that out of context somehow

[olevetonahill]

http://bible.cc/revelation/21-8.htm

i'm sure i'm taking that out of context somehow

Im just hoping an Prayin that if I get sent to the Lake of fire, theres plenty of Cold beer and the fishin is at least decent

[yermom]

ToIqkRoiRJY

[SicEmBaylor]

Im just hoping an Prayin that if I get sent to the Lake of fire, theres plenty of Cold beer and the fishin is at least decent

Suits me. I like hot weather.

[olevetonahill]

Suits me. I like hot weather.

Maybe we have some asbestos Boats and water ski suits . A good time can be had by all.

[Soonerjeepman]

The whole time I am reading this thread I am thinking your girlfriend is a Puerto Rican? Cause up here some folks call them Ricans. Figuring folks in Kansas are slightly dumber than the average NYer I just assumed you left of the " n". And I am wondering what this has to do with chit from shinola other than she is a good lay (I will never forgive you for bragging about that you bastard) and a Puerto Rican. Now I think I understand you are talking about RCIA....Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults in the Catholic Church which has nothing to do with your GF being Puerto Rican or a good lay.

You have to get up pretty early to pull the wool over ole DD's eyes! :)

PS. When she learns about Catholic birth control your days of a care free sex are numbered. You will be just like the rest of schmucks. SEXLESS. So you have that to look forward to. LMAO


LOL,,my bad...yes RCIA

umm...as far as the rest...yes I'm sinning, I have internal issues with it...leave it at that. Is 3 times in 24 hours a bad thing? :cheerful:

[olevetonahill]

LOL,,my bad...yes RCIA

umm...as far as the rest...yes I'm sinning, I have internal issues with it...leave it at that. Is 3 times in 24 hours a bad thing? :cheerful:

Yes you must say 3 er 4 Hell Mary's and Send me Pics.

[Soonerjeepman]

lol...good one.

Actually I'll add to the main thread here...

As a born and raised Catholic, there are 3-4 things I'd like to see the church address.

#1 Let priest marry. Would solve several issues, numbers are low - being a priest is about helping and serving. I understand the whole tradition thing (not ready for women priest) but it would open the door to some folks that may like that vocation.

#2 Donation of organs - church's teaching is it isn't right. Again, I understand the whole deciding life issue but there are some technical issues involved about keeping the body "alive" to keep organs good. The organs go to help another person.

#3 BC. Again, the church's teaching is all in "intent". The ex and I were told in our marriage prep classes that we didn't have to have x number of kids, it was more leaving the opportunity there and then why you don't have them. The old priest, 78 at the time, said that if you have only 1 or no kids to increase YOUR material life then that is not good. If you feel you can only provide a decent life for x number of kids then that is fine. The marriage or relationship of the husband and wife is the most important thing. So, with that background, for example my gf and I. We have had our kids, provided for them and are not in a position to have more kids (age). Sex has 2 purposes, procreation of children and show mutual love and respect for your wife/husband...so the question is for those people who are in the 40/50's, have had kids and are not wanting more. Yes there is natural family planning. I definitely would rather see bc vs abortion..but again NOT forcing a business who provides healthcare (obama mandate) to provide that. If the person wants it, attach it as a rider the employee must pay for.

These are just ramblings...

[Jacie]

Something occurred to me the other day about the current state of affairs versus way back when. People with strong religious conviction in this country are identified with the political right. Well, it doesn't take a history scholar to see that events that took place in The New Testament, those guys were anything but political conservatives. Today they would be labeled extreme leftists.

Other musings, does God have gender? Is God a he, a she, neither, both? Get past the male-dominated version of history and everything else and tell me which way the Big JuJu swings.

[StoopTroup]

lol...good one.

Actually I'll add to the main thread here...

As a born and raised Catholic, there are 3-4 things I'd like to see the church address.

#1 Let priest marry. Would solve several issues, numbers are low - being a priest is about helping and serving. I understand the whole tradition thing (not ready for women priest) but it would open the door to some folks that may like that vocation.

#2 Donation of organs - church's teaching is it isn't right. Again, I understand the whole deciding life issue but there are some technical issues involved about keeping the body "alive" to keep organs good. The organs go to help another person.

#3 BC. Again, the church's teaching is all in "intent". The ex and I were told in our marriage prep classes that we didn't have to have x number of kids, it was more leaving the opportunity there and then why you don't have them. The old priest, 78 at the time, said that if you have only 1 or no kids to increase YOUR material life then that is not good. If you feel you can only provide a decent life for x number of kids then that is fine. The marriage or relationship of the husband and wife is the most important thing. So, with that background, for example my gf and I. We have had our kids, provided for them and are not in a position to have more kids (age). Sex has 2 purposes, procreation of children and show mutual love and respect for your wife/husband...so the question is for those people who are in the 40/50's, have had kids and are not wanting more. Yes there is natural family planning. I definitely would rather see bc vs abortion..but again NOT forcing a business who provides healthcare (obama mandate) to provide that. If the person wants it, attach it as a rider the employee must pay for.

These are just ramblings...

As the Son of a Micro and Plastic Surgeon...I don't disagree much about certain Organ Donating. Illegal Harvesting in 3rd World Countries is probably why the Church stays strong on their Anti Donation of Organs as the really poor might think that allowing Drunk Uncle or a child with disabilities should have their organs harvested in order to help the Family or to do something nice for a Family Member. You know....maybe they feel their life isn't worth anything? We in America tend to look at our own situations where the Church tends to look at the World overall.

I think it's why other religions have become more popular in America as it fits their Life Style more than a 2000 year old Church who is set in their ways. IMO....it doesn't make The Catholic Church a bad thing....it makes it human. We have seen plenty of Preachers fall from Grace and now The Catholic Church again faces the awfulness of some Priests who have used their position as Clergy to harm Kids. I don't think a problem that has been mishandled for years was just going to go away overnight. I pray that we continue to expose these men who would break their promise to God and The Church to harm Children. Hopefully....in time....we can assure a safe environment for all of our Parishioners no matter what their age is.

As far as letting Priests marry.....I think Deacon's should be able to become more of an assistance to the many Priest that are unable to give personal time to Teach. The number of men who decide to give their life to God has become a difficulty at times for The Church. We are always in need of more. I think Deacons involvement in the Day to Day runnings of the financial side of the Parishes would help allow our many Priests to spend more time helping the Parishioners rather than handling the finances and the search for people to give service to their Parish.

My Ramblings.....

We of course all know that there are many of us who have some ideas....but the Priests and Nuns really are the backbone of each of our individual Parishes.

[FaninAma]

Diverdog, do you really think Kansans are dumber than the average NYer? I will withhold my judgement of that statement and give you a chance to clarify that you were trying to be humorous.

[Soonerjeepman]

As the Son of a Micro and Plastic Surgeon...I don't disagree much about certain Organ Donating. Illegal Harvesting in 3rd World Countries is probably why the Church stays strong on their Anti Donation of Organs as the really poor might think that allowing Drunk Uncle or a child with disabilities should have their organs harvested in order to help the Family or to do something nice for a Family Member. You know....maybe they feel their life isn't worth anything? We in America tend to look at our own situations where the Church tends to look at the World overall.

agreed

I think it's why other religions have become more popular in America as it fits their Life Style more than a 2000 year old Church who is set in their ways. IMO....it doesn't make The Catholic Church a bad thing....it makes it human. We have seen plenty of Preachers fall from Grace and now The Catholic Church again faces the awfulness of some Priests who have used their position as Clergy to harm Kids. I don't think a problem that has been mishandled for years was just going to go away overnight. I pray that we continue to expose these men who would break their promise to God and The Church to harm Children. Hopefully....in time....we can assure a safe environment for all of our Parishioners no matter what their age is.

Definitely agree...good post, I get tired of folks bashing the church because of some really bad folks..they are everywhere.

As far as letting Priests marry.....I think Deacon's should be able to become more of an assistance to the many Priest that are unable to give personal time to Teach. The number of men who decide to give their life to God has become a difficulty at times for The Church. We are always in need of more. I think Deacons involvement in the Day to Day runnings of the financial side of the Parishes would help allow our many Priests to spend more time helping the Parishioners rather than handling the finances and the search for people to give service to their Parish.

Guess my perspective is I might have thought about the priesthood but I really liked girls too much! lol...I see both sides but I think it would benefit the church...open it up more.

My Ramblings.....

We of course all know that there are many of us who have some ideas....but the Priests and Nuns really are the backbone of each of our individual Parishes.

I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to the Catholic church....I def don't want them to compromise the teachings and beliefs but there are some things that seem to be something that might help them. I love the fact it's been basically the same for 2000 yrs.

[Soonerjeepman]

Diverdog, do you really think Kansans are dumber than the average NYer? I will withhold my judgement of that statement and give you a chance to clarify that you were trying to be humorous.

we are still in covered wagons and live in black and white...until we get to Oz... ;-)

[diverdog]

Is 3 times in 24 hours a bad thing? :cheerful:

f*** ***

Now you are starting to **** me off.

[diverdog]

lol...good one.

Actually I'll add to the main thread here...

As a born and raised Catholic, there are 3-4 things I'd like to see the church address.

#1 Let priest marry. Would solve several issues, numbers are low - being a priest is about helping and serving. I understand the whole tradition thing (not ready for women priest) but it would open the door to some folks that may like that vocation.

#2 Donation of organs - church's teaching is it isn't right. Again, I understand the whole deciding life issue but there are some technical issues involved about keeping the body "alive" to keep organs good. The organs go to help another person.

#3 BC. Again, the church's teaching is all in "intent". The ex and I were told in our marriage prep classes that we didn't have to have x number of kids, it was more leaving the opportunity there and then why you don't have them. The old priest, 78 at the time, said that if you have only 1 or no kids to increase YOUR material life then that is not good. If you feel you can only provide a decent life for x number of kids then that is fine. The marriage or relationship of the husband and wife is the most important thing. So, with that background, for example my gf and I. We have had our kids, provided for them and are not in a position to have more kids (age). Sex has 2 purposes, procreation of children and show mutual love and respect for your wife/husband...so the question is for those people who are in the 40/50's, have had kids and are not wanting more. Yes there is natural family planning. I definitely would rather see bc vs abortion..but again NOT forcing a business who provides healthcare (obama mandate) to provide that. If the person wants it, attach it as a rider the employee must pay for.

These are just ramblings...

How about woman priest?

[SicEmBaylor]

I did not realize the Church was opposed to organ transplants.

[diverdog]

Diverdog, do you really think Kansans are dumber than the average NYer? I will withhold my judgement of that statement and give you a chance to clarify that you were trying to be humorous.

No I was being humorous. I actually think they are a lot dumber than even the average okie. They choose to live in Kansas for gods sake.:)

[Soonerjeepman]

No I was being humorous. I actually think they are a lot dumber than even the average okie. They choose to live in Kansas for gods sake.:)

hey now that is below the belt...I'll take all your other $hit but not that! LOL...just for that, I'm gettin it tonight as well... I needed to edit, it was 3 times in hmmm...12 hours...sorry~ this one tonight is on top.

on the women priest, c'mon DD your EYES again...

#1 Let priest marry. Would solve several issues, numbers are low - being a priest is about helping and serving. I understand the whole tradition thing (not ready for women priest) but it would open the door to some folks that may like that vocation.

[diverdog]

hey now that is below the belt...I'll take all your other $hit but not that! LOL...just for that, I'm gettin it tonight as well... I needed to edit, it was 3 times in hmmm...12 hours...sorry~ this one tonight is on top.

on the women priest, c'mon DD your EYES again...

#1 Let priest marry. Would solve several issues, numbers are low - being a priest is about helping and serving. I understand the whole tradition thing (not ready for women priest) but it would open the door to some folks that may like that vocation.

I wasn't sure if you were saying you are not ready for women priest or if the church is not ready for women priest or both. Priest were allowed to marry 150 years ago in Europe...I believe.

[Soonerjeepman]

ah....my bad. I'm not ready...but it's up to the church. I just follow BLINDLY... ;-)

been hikin?

[StoopTroup]

I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to the Catholic church....I def don't want them to compromise the teachings and beliefs but there are some things that seem to be something that might help them. I love the fact it's been basically the same for 2000 yrs.

great post.

[diverdog]

ah....my bad. I'm not ready...but it's up to the church. I just follow BLINDLY... ;-)

been hikin?

Last weekend a day hike 8 miles. Saw a ton of bald eagles.
Wood Badge staff prep today.

[StoopTroup]

Last weekend a day hike 8 miles. Saw a ton of bald eagles.
Wood Badge staff prep today.

My Son and a few in his pack went to Red Fork. It's beautiful there.

[olevetonahill]

I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to the Catholic church....I def don't want them to compromise the teachings and beliefs but there are some things that seem to be something that might help them. I love the fact it's been basically the same for 2000 yrs.

Come on bro, You sayin the CC then still supports The Nazi's How about burnings at the cross?

I dont care one way or the other but to try and say the CC is the same today as it was 2000 years ago is wrong.

http://apprising.org/2008/09/02/has-the-roman-catholic-church-really-changed/

[olevetonahill]

And No i dint read all that link.

[diverdog]

My Son and a few in his pack went to Red Fork. It's beautiful there.

Sounds like a lot of fun.

[FaninAma]

No I was being humorous. I actually think they are a lot dumber than even the average okie. They choose to live in Kansas for gods sake.:)
I thought as much. I do get the impression that a lot on the progressive side feel that way abouteople from the heartland.

[StoopTroup]

Sounds like a lot of fun.

Lots of great memories and they all got awarded quite a few badges at last night's Blue and Gold Banquet. Also our Daughter met one of the High Adventure folks from the Scouts who runs the High Adventure Program. They are trying to involve older girls who have been involved in younger Brothers Scouting but never found the Girl Scouts to their liking. One of the Adventures will involve Robbers Cave. I think he said they is a 300 foot repel for those who want to achieve such a level. My Daughter's eyes lit up. I might be having one of those Father moments where you aren't sure whether you are letting her do the right thing...:D

[olevetonahill]

Some one prolly be on their Smart phone postin nonsense instead of spendin time with their kid.

[StoopTroup]

Some one prolly be on their Smart phone postin nonsense instead of spendin time with their kid.

Oh that old thing. So funny.

Actually the boy is with a friend of ours and her Son who works for The Metro Chamber and they are helping out at the Bass Master's Classic. The reason he's with them is that it's my Daughter's Birthday and she is having a Sleep Over with her friends here and the Wife and I are Chaperoning 8 15 year old girls. As a Dad....it's best I be cool and not embarrass my Daughter with any uncoolness :D That said....if you are worried about the kids....I think they are all in pretty good hands and 16 other Parent's don't seem to be as worried as you are.

Why don't you go back to taking care of your chiuaua or whatever you've nearly killed with heart worms.

[SicEmBaylor]

Oh that old thing. So funny.

Actually the boy is with a friend of ours and her Son who works for The Metro Chamber and they are helping out at the Bass Master's Classic. The reason he's with them is that it's my Daughter's Birthday and she is having a Sleep Over with her friends here and the Wife and I are Chaperoning 8 15 year old girls. As a Dad....it's best I be cool and not embarrass my Daughter with any uncoolness :D That said....if you are worried about the kids....I think they are all in pretty good hands and 16 other Parent's don't seem to be as worried as you are.

Why don't you go back to taking care of your chiuaua or whatever you've nearly killed with heart worms.
One of these days I'm going to show up at your home with a crowbar. I'm going to wear a pair of black gloves and quietly enter in the middle of the night. I'm then going to look for your computer and pry off the shift and caps lock keys.

[diverdog]

Lots of great memories and they all got awarded quite a few badges at last night's Blue and Gold Banquet. Also our Daughter met one of the High Adventure folks from the Scouts who runs the High Adventure Program. They are trying to involve older girls who have been involved in younger Brothers Scouting but never found the Girl Scouts to their liking. One of the Adventures will involve Robbers Cave. I think he said they is a 300 foot repel for those who want to achieve such a level. My Daughter's eyes lit up. I might be having one of those Father moments where you aren't sure whether you are letting her do the right thing...:D

I did some caving in PA two years ago with an instructor. The rappelling was fun but the climb out was brutal. We used prusik knots ( a type of slip knot) and web slings to ascend. I was really worried because I did not have the upper body strength of my youth and I got winded. Caving is okay. Mostly it is wet, dark and cold. You use carbide lamps and it is strict leave no trace. Meaning you pack your sh*t out. Glad I tried it but it was my one and only trip. No plans to try it again.

A lot of caves in the east are off limits to humans because there is a belief that we are carrying a virus that is killing bats.


Climb out set up.
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Ascend1l.JPG

[diverdog]

I thought as much. I do get the impression that a lot on the progressive side feel that way abouteople from the heartland.

We got our own problems and we do not spend much time thinking about the South or the West. To be honest I think you guys fixate on it too much. Around here we bust on the rednecks from PA. Okie rednecks are usually nice to a fault. PA rednecks are azzholes.

[olevetonahill]

I did some caving in PA two years ago with an instructor. The rappelling was fun but the climb out was brutal. We used prusik knots ( a type of slip knot) and web slings to ascend. I was really worried because I did not have the upper body strength of my youth and I got winded. Caving is okay. Mostly it is wet, dark and cold. You use carbide lamps and it is strict leave no trace. Meaning you pack your sh*t out. Glad I tried it but it was my one and only trip. No plans to try it again.

A lot of caves in the east are off limits to humans because there is a belief that we are carrying a virus that is killing bats.

Robbers Cave state park has no Real caves, It was the hangout/hideout of Belle Starr and her gang.
I doubt very seriously if there are any Cliffs that are 300 foot for rappelling
http://www.shopoklahoma.com/robbersc.htm

[cleller]

Robbers Cave state park has no Real caves, It was the hangout/hideout of Belle Starr and her gang.
I doubt very seriously if there are any Cliffs that are 300 foot for rappelling
http://www.shopoklahoma.com/robbersc.htm

Always liked Robbers Cave. Very pretty area. Curiously, one time when we were there, people were rappelling down the sides of the rock formations there. They're not very high though, I'd guess something more like 50 feet?

[olevetonahill]

Always liked Robbers Cave. Very pretty area. Curiously, one time when we were there, people were rappelling down the sides of the rock formations there. They're not very high though, I'd guess something more like 50 feet?

Oh they do the rappelling there, Like you said MAYBE 50 foot at the most.
Ive camped and fished there a Lot back in the day. It is a nice place, Just Misnamed as to Caves and such.

[diverdog]

Always liked Robbers Cave. Very pretty area. Curiously, one time when we were there, people were rappelling down the sides of the rock formations there. They're not very high though, I'd guess something more like 50 feet?

Our rappel was 100 feet...tops. It was dark and I was worried about these big azz spiders that were everywhere. So it could have been a lot less.

A 300 foot rappel is a lot of rope. Normally you do that in stages.

[StoopTroup]

Always liked Robbers Cave. Very pretty area. Curiously, one time when we were there, people were rappelling down the sides of the rock formations there. They're not very high though, I'd guess something more like 50 feet?

Yeah....I s/w the Wife about that and it wasn't Robbers Cave that was the 300 foot repel but it is one of the starting levels that leads you to the 300 footer. Thank God Vet was here to cover the details.

[diverdog]

Yeah....I s/w the Wife about that and it wasn't Robbers Cave that was the 300 foot repel but it is one of the starting levels that leads you to the 300 footer. Thank God Vet was here to cover the details.

there are some cave roofs that have collapsed and I know they do some crazy long rappels to get to the floor. I am guessing but I bet the rope alone would be a $1000!

[StoopTroup]

there are some cave roofs that have collapsed and I know they do some crazy long rappels to get to the floor. I am guessing but I bet the rope alone would be a $1000!

I love going to Backwoods in the Farm Shopping Center here in Tulsa. I used to know the old owners of Think Snow and Sun and Ski out by Woodland Hills Mall too. I ran a few Ski Trips for them when I was in College. I got to ski for cheap so I went 5-10 times a year. I love the Rockies.

Anyway....all the new climbing gear they have now is so impressive. We used to have a Catalina 25 Sailboat too and the Rope for it was insane. I've seen the price for the really good climbing ropes too. Unreal.

[diverdog]

I love going to Backwoods in the Farm Shopping Center here in Tulsa. I used to know the old owners of Think Snow and Sun and Ski out by Woodland Hills Mall too. I ran a few Ski Trips for them when I was in College. I got to ski for cheap so I went 5-10 times a year. I love the Rockies.

Anyway....all the new climbing gear they have now is so impressive. We used to have a Catalina 25 Sailboat too and the Rope for it was insane. I've seen the price for the really good climbing ropes too. Unreal.

From what I am told the cost of insurance for climbing gear is insane.

I only took one screamer and that is when two pieces of my protection failed. When you fall it is twice the distance from your nearest good protection.

I was never a good climber and only know enough to be dangerous. All that is behind me know because I am not in shape to climb. No where close. Lol

Backwoods is great. I got my first pair of Asolo hiking boots from them in the early 80's. i am still very loyal to Asolo.

[StoopTroup]

From what I am told the cost of insurance for climbing gear is insane.

I only took one screamer and that is when two pieces of my protection failed. When you fall it is twice the distance from your nearest good protection.

I was never a good climber and only know enough to be dangerous. All that is behind me know because I am not in shape to climb. No where close. Lol

Backwoods is great. I got my first pair of Asolo hiking boots from them in the early 80's. i am still very loyal to Asolo.

I had a friend in the 82nd Airborne who was rappelling out of a chopper onto a platform during training. There were quite a few of them on the platform when it gave out. He fell something like forty feet and tried to use his training to break his fall but he still ended up with a nice chest cast on and some really messed up spots in his back. They put wings into the chest of his cast and they all signed it. When he got Home to see us....it was obvious he was in a lot of pain. It was Summer and we tried to keep him happy and kept a full cooler of beer by his side at the pool. We all could swim but he could only dip his boys in the water and go back and sit down.

That sudden stop at the end really sucks.

[StoopTroup]

Also...my bud was in on the Raid of Manuel Noriega's place. I have some really cool Christmas Stationary from his desk. I heard on the news a few weeks ago that the little cokehead was still doing his time. They should keep him locked up until the end of time IMHO.

[diverdog]

Also...my bud was in on the Raid of Manuel Noriega's place. I have some really cool Christmas Stationary from his desk. I heard on the news a few weeks ago that the little cokehead was still doing his time. They should keep him locked up until the end of time IMHO.

I flew the night we invaded Panama. Our airborne guys are really brave.

The place where Noriega was captured was only a block away from a hotel where we did our crew rest. When things settled down and we started to stay there again, the place was still riddled with bullet holes.

[Soonerjeepman]

Last weekend a day hike 8 miles. Saw a ton of bald eagles.
Wood Badge staff prep today.

cool...we were in boundry waters this past summer, really neat seeing the Eagles fishing..

[Soonerjeepman]

Come on bro, You sayin the CC then still supports The Nazi's How about burnings at the cross?

I dont care one way or the other but to try and say the CC is the same today as it was 2000 years ago is wrong.

http://apprising.org/2008/09/02/has-the-roman-catholic-church-really-changed/

LOL,,,c'mon Vet..not that part. The traditions, ceremony (minus the Latin)...the fact Mass is the same where ever ya go.

[olevetonahill]

LOL,,,c'mon Vet..not that part. The traditions, ceremony (minus the Latin)...the fact Mass is the same where ever ya go.

Heh, Just playin wit ya Bro.

[FirstandGoal]

Hey can we please get back to Sic'Em's original question? I was all into this thread until you guys started glazing my eyes over with all of the talk about hiking and ****. (which should be contained in a thread entitled WGAS?)




I completely agree with this..And I don't understand this line of thinking as a life long follower of Christ..I don't really use the term Christian as it's more tied to politics than Christ lately.

People say these things thinking that it helps someone deal with the situation, but in the end, it puts people at odds with God.

I had a teenager in my youth group a few years back get drunk, drive his truck off of a bridge, and died.. Another minister there told me "Well, it was God's plan."..so then I posed the questions back, "So God purchased whiskey for him, convinced him to drink excessively, and then pushed the truck off the road?"...People I guess need deep answers when really it was bad choices that caused it.

STEP, I actually had some of these foolish comments directed my way after I was diagnosed with breast cancer. How anybody can look at somebody else in the face who has just been told they have a 50/50 percent 5 year survival rate and utter the words "God must have some kind of a plan" is an idiot! I personally fall under the belief (and I consider myself a Christian for anybody who is curious) that the presence of God doesn't prevent bad **** from happening. It doesn't prevent sickness, accidents, bad luck, or anything else. Do I believe in the power of prayer? Absolutely. I promise that I had days I probably had no reason to get through at some of my sickest times that the power of prayer (both my own and those of my close friends, coworkers and family members) enabled me to fight through.


newsflash - there has never been a time in the history of man where Christians as a group - resemble Christ. It's never happened, and never will. It's a convenient out for those who need one...."i can't follow that religion because the followers are hypocrites"

yes, that is the very nature of sin - we all (those of us who believe) fall short...some of us fall in glorious public fashion and others fall in more subtle quiet ways - but every one of us fall.....repeatedly, daily

there's a big difference between "religion" and "faith".....Faith is from God and religion is a man made creation.

my issue with the notion of Deism is that man gets to shape God.....put 10 deists in a room together and you'll get 10 different ideas of what God is or who he is.

if thats what you believe, then so be it - i dont personally prescribe to that line of belief.

If you've never read the bible or read any of the Christian classics - books that dive deep into theology - then i'm not sure how I can understand how you can discount Christianity because of the flaws of its followers or the logic that you disagree with - but again - thats your option

read the book of Acts - christianity did not exist until after Christ died and the Holy Spirit had a meet and greet with the Apostles and then later the conversion of Saul/Paul........but within 300 years after the resurrection - the "religion" spread all over parts of the world where it never spread before - to people who had no interest in such a God. i personally find that to be faith inspired.

The bible requires reading and study to understand it......a casual glance now and then, and you'll never "get it."

anyway - thats what I have to say about my faith.....if you have an issue with Christianity because of Christians - well, welcome to reality

This is absolutely one of the best posts I've ever read concerning belief systems. Lord knows I have my days when I don't want to follow what I consider the path God wants me to follow. I tend to be a stubborn individual who thinks that her way is the better way and I can manage on my own. Those times are usually right before some big-time calamity in my life and I can almost feel myself being "gently pulled" back to the path I need to be treading. In short, every time I wander about in the wilderness for a while, I find myself of my own accord starting to desire a return to a smoother path that will lead me closer to God. I honestly don't care if anybody believes me in that or not. It is real and I have experienced it many times in my own life. I personally think that because I have opened my heart and my soul to the Holy Spirit, it is allowed to be my guidepost. If I had decided to close my mind and heart off, then I would not feel its presence and would not feel this way.

Oh yeah, and I also believe in a God who loves me for me which includes all of the "bad" things like being a smart ***, cussing, enjoying good wine and spirits, hating all things orange, and rooting for whorn to be thoroughly embarrassed every single year in Dallas in October.

[Soonerjeepman]

agree, God doesn't stop bad things from happening....as far as God's plan...it's my opinion he has a general path...with many forks in the road which we choose.

As far as sickness, like cancer...obviously it's all personal beliefs. Prayers are with you.

Oh, I am pretty sure God is cool with cheering for horns to be embarrassed every time~

[olevetonahill]

agree, God doesn't stop bad things from happening....as far as God's plan...it's my opinion he has a general path...with many forks in the road which we choose.

As far as sickness, like cancer...obviously it's all personal beliefs. Prayers are with you.

Oh, I am pretty sure God is cool with cheering for horns to be embarrassed every time~

Heres the Real Deal
God lets them sorry assed whorns Win every now and then to teach us Humility . If Yall remember WE had it made it Made in the Garden. No sickness , No hate,No crime, No Pants wearing( My kinda Heaven). Then one day Adam told Eve to make him a sammich and that yainch said" **** that here, eat this apple instead" .
We been ****ed every since

[Soonerjeepman]

lol...that's funny~

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

cool...we were in boundry waters this past summer, really neat seeing the Eagles fishing..Minnesota or Ontario? Super fishing (for humans)throughout that area. I made several trips up there into Canada in the mid 80's, fishing for a week or so in Quetico Park. Some of the best smallmouth Bass fishing that can be found.

[jk the sooner fan]

Hey can we please get back to Sic'Em's original question? I was all into this thread until you guys started glazing my eyes over with all of the talk about hiking and ****. (which should be contained in a thread entitled WGAS?)





STEP, I actually had some of these foolish comments directed my way after I was diagnosed with breast cancer. How anybody can look at somebody else in the face who has just been told they have a 50/50 percent 5 year survival rate and utter the words "God must have some kind of a plan" is an idiot! I personally fall under the belief (and I consider myself a Christian for anybody who is curious) that the presence of God doesn't prevent bad **** from happening. It doesn't prevent sickness, accidents, bad luck, or anything else. Do I believe in the power of prayer? Absolutely. I promise that I had days I probably had no reason to get through at some of my sickest times that the power of prayer (both my own and those of my close friends, coworkers and family members) enabled me to fight through.



This is absolutely one of the best posts I've ever read concerning belief systems. Lord knows I have my days when I don't want to follow what I consider the path God wants me to follow. I tend to be a stubborn individual who thinks that her way is the better way and I can manage on my own. Those times are usually right before some big-time calamity in my life and I can almost feel myself being "gently pulled" back to the path I need to be treading. In short, every time I wander about in the wilderness for a while, I find myself of my own accord starting to desire a return to a smoother path that will lead me closer to God. I honestly don't care if anybody believes me in that or not. It is real and I have experienced it many times in my own life. I personally think that because I have opened my heart and my soul to the Holy Spirit, it is allowed to be my guidepost. If I had decided to close my mind and heart off, then I would not feel its presence and would not feel this way.

Oh yeah, and I also believe in a God who loves me for me which includes all of the "bad" things like being a smart ***, cussing, enjoying good wine and spirits, hating all things orange, and rooting for whorn to be thoroughly embarrassed every single year in Dallas in October.

to me - faith is about a relationship with Christ and the Holy Trinity

like any relationship- you get out of it what you put into it..that's an over simplification....but the scriptures are to be studied and read.....and interpreted in the context they were written - simply reading something from the book of Revelations (one book more than any other that has many theologians in disagreement over the interpretation because of all the symbolism) and taking a literal interpretation and then extrapolating that to discount the rest of the book.......is overly simplistic

at last count - there are around 8 ways to interpret the book of Genesis. If you take it in the context it was written - Moses wrote it TO THE EGYPTIANS who had "many Gods"....the book takes on a whole different meaning than the science/big bang guys apply to it

God is a loving God - but he is also a punishing God.....get out of the book of Leviticus and read Isaiah and the NT prophecies...read the psalms and the proverbs - and then STUDY the NT....read other sources

my two cents

good discussion (some of it anyway)

[StoopTroup]

to me - faith is about a relationship with Christ and the Holy Trinity

like any relationship- you get out of it what you put into it..that's an over simplification....but the scriptures are to be studied and read.....and interpreted in the context they were written - simply reading something from the book of Revelations (one book more than any other that has many theologians in disagreement over the interpretation because of all the symbolism) and taking a literal interpretation and then extrapolating that to discount the rest of the book.......is overly simplistic

at last count - there are around 8 ways to interpret the book of Genesis. If you take it in the context it was written - Moses wrote it TO THE EGYPTIANS who had "many Gods"....the book takes on a whole different meaning than the science/big bang guys apply to it

God is a loving God - but he is also a punishing God.....get out of the book of Leviticus and read Isaiah and the NT prophecies...read the psalms and the proverbs - and then STUDY the NT....read other sources

my two cents

good discussion (some of it anyway)

Good post

[SoonerBBall]

I get a little weary listening to this line of thought. Christians and every other religion has just as much right to participate in the democratic process as atheists, agnostics and deists do. It would seem a lot of those on the left just want them to shut up and not exercise their freedom of speech or otherwise participate in the political process.

At no point did I say you should be disallowed from expressing yourself through your right to vote or that your freedom of speech should be repressed. I merely pointed out that using your faith as a reason to deny people their constitutional rights is bullsh*t. I'm perfectly happy if you don't support the same things as I do, that is what makes the US great, but trying to impose that will on others through the force of law makes you just as bad as the lefties that you rail against. By pursuing those platforms, you are just like Obama and his cronies.

[StoopTroup]

^wow

[SicEmBaylor]

agree, God doesn't stop bad things from happening....as far as God's plan...it's my opinion he has a general path...with many forks in the road which we choose.

So, we only have "quasi-free will?" Which means we don't truly have free-will at all if we have the ability to choose our path in life so long as it's one of a select group of paths that God has chosen for us. That isn't free will; that's multiple-choice.

[SicEmBaylor]

At no point did I say you should be disallowed from expressing yourself through your right to vote or that your freedom of speech should be repressed. I merely pointed out that using your faith as a reason to deny people their constitutional rights is bullsh*t. I'm perfectly happy if you don't support the same things as I do, that is what makes the US great, but trying to impose that will on others through the force of law makes you just as bad as the lefties that you rail against. By pursuing those platforms, you are just like Obama and his cronies.

I agree with all this.

[SoonerBBall]

^wow

By all means, please explain how the left trying to suppress our individual liberties is different than the right trying to suppress different, but still valid individual liberties.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

By all means, please explain how the left trying to suppress our individual liberties is different than the right trying to suppress different, but still valid individual liberties.Laughable, but sad, that you would fear conservatives more than those who actually are shutting down the economy, and taking illegal control of things.

[yermom]

to me - faith is about a relationship with Christ and the Holy Trinity

like any relationship- you get out of it what you put into it..that's an over simplification....but the scriptures are to be studied and read.....and interpreted in the context they were written - simply reading something from the book of Revelations (one book more than any other that has many theologians in disagreement over the interpretation because of all the symbolism) and taking a literal interpretation and then extrapolating that to discount the rest of the book.......is overly simplistic

at last count - there are around 8 ways to interpret the book of Genesis. If you take it in the context it was written - Moses wrote it TO THE EGYPTIANS who had "many Gods"....the book takes on a whole different meaning than the science/big bang guys apply to it

God is a loving God - but he is also a punishing God.....get out of the book of Leviticus and read Isaiah and the NT prophecies...read the psalms and the proverbs - and then STUDY the NT....read other sources

my two cents

good discussion (some of it anyway)

so you take issue with hell as a punishment, or just the text "fire and brimstone"?

the trinity was only added to the bible later for some reason anyway. it's all based on human constructs written down after the fact. what in the bible makes you believe in it so firmly?

[Fraggle145]

Laughable, but sad, that you would fear conservatives more than those who actually are shutting down the economy, and taking illegal control of things.

From the looks of his post it sounds to me like he fears both of them equally. It looks to me that just because he doesnt agree with you on everything evar that you assume he is on the left.

[yermom]

Laughable, but sad, that you would fear conservatives more than those who actually are shutting down the economy, and taking illegal control of things.

the right has shown plenty of propensity to shut down the economy

[diverdog]

Hey can we please get back to Sic'Em's original question? I was all into this thread until you guys started glazing my eyes over with all of the talk about hiking and ****. (which should be contained in a thread entitled WHAS

The most spiritual people I know spend considerable time outdoors. Jesus went into the desert to fight the temptation of the devil. He also lived with fisherman and people who labored outside.

Where do you find many of the great temples of religion? Many are in some of the most remote places on earth. There is a reason for this and it boils down to the hardship of the path we must follow to stay in grace with god.


I have travelled deeply into the wilderness to see gods work and to get right with myself. Being outdoors is far more fulfilling than being in a church. On all my travels I carry some sort of religious book. It is my wish when I retire to walk the Compostela Pilgrimage in Spain.

Yeah I know we were off subject and I appreciaye your wanting to get back to the subject at hand. But I would also submit that some of us find beauty in god's work by taking a 40 day hike in the desert.

[jk the sooner fan]

so you take issue with hell as a punishment, or just the text "fire and brimstone"?

the trinity was only added to the bible later for some reason anyway. it's all based on human constructs written down after the fact. what in the bible makes you believe in it so firmly?

yermom- no offense but you are the very last person on earth i care to defend my belief system with

for you to say that the trinity was added to the bible "later for some reason" is just flat wrong on so many accounts - but we can just agree to disagree

you're anti-christian - and thats your choice.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

From the looks of his post it sounds to me like he fears both of them equally. It looks to me that just because he doesnt agree with you on everything evar that you assume he is on the left.Looked as if he fears conservatives more than the confiscation and usurpation that are going on now. IOW, if he worried about what's happening in the country now, he would have talked about it, instead of going the moral equivalency route.

[SoonerBBall]

Laughable, but sad, that you would fear conservatives more than those who actually are shutting down the economy, and taking illegal control of things.

Fraggle already pointed it out, but he is correct. I fear both of them equally as both sides have proven themselves to be strongly anti-constitutional and absurdly pro-big government.

The truly laughable thing is that you are far more concerned about being afraid of the big bad left and didn't even try to deny that the right is also attempting to severely limit our individual liberties.

[SoonerBBall]

Looked as if he fears conservatives more than the confiscation and usurpation that are going on now.

Looks as if you need to invest time in reading comprehension.

[yermom]

yermom- no offense but you are the very last person on earth i care to defend my belief system with

for you to say that the trinity was added to the bible "later for some reason" is just flat wrong on so many accounts - but we can just agree to disagree

you're anti-christian - and thats your choice.

i've read the bible plenty though. you tell someone to read it, but you don't really provide much in the way of citations.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

the right has shown plenty of propensity to shut down the economyOnly when they cave to the leftists.

[C&CDean]

The most spiritual people I know spend considerable time outdoors. Jesus went into the desert to fight the temptation of the devil. He also lived with fisherman and people who labored outside.

Where do you find many of the great temples of religion? Many are in some of the most remote places on earth. There is a reason for this and it boils down to the hardship of the path we must follow to stay in grace with god.


I have travelled deeply into the wilderness to see gods work and to get right with myself. Being outdoors is far more fulfilling than being in a church. On all my travels I carry some sort of religious book. It is my wish when I retire to walk the Compostela Pilgrimage in Spain.

Yeah I know we were off subject and I appreciaye your wanting to get back to the subject at hand. But I would also submit that some of us find beauty in god's work by taking a 40 day hike in the desert.

I'm down with this. My annual revival meeting is in the deer woods in the fall. I get a freshen up during turkey season in the spring, and since I'm blessed enough to own a substantial spread of land, I get my regular "church meeting talking to/worshipping God" almost every day. Was way out back clearing brush yesterday and during a break it was so peaceful and still I thought "so much holier a place than a church house."

[jk the sooner fan]

i've read the bible plenty though. you tell someone to read it, but you don't really provide much in the way of citations.

if only it were that simple

what would you like "citations about" specifically?

you want the ability to extract one or two verse of scripture out to suit your beliefs/arguments - and i'm telling you that it isnt that overly simplistic

my suggestion that somebody "read it" was really for the believers.....i really dont waste my time suggesting that an atheist read the bible

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Looks as if you need to invest time in reading comprehension.Nice insult, but you could elaborate about the usurpation and confiscation that is going on now, to give us your opinion about it, if you wish.

[FirstandGoal]

Meh, I'm like Sic'Em in the regard that I really don't like the great outdoors that much and yeah... all of the sidebar talking about the outdoorsey stuff was boring the hell out of me.
Sorry if that offended anybody, but there it is.

As far as religion and politics is concerned, I'm definitely going to have to agree with Fraggle in this situation. It leaves me with an uneasy feeling to think about the two things mixing together.

[SoonerBBall]

Nice insult, but you could elaborate about the usurpation and confiscation that is going on now, to give us your opinion about it, if you wish.

I appreciate that this comment proves you have a comprehension problem, at least as far as my original comment goes. Given your posting history, it is funny that you are getting all PC about the fact that I "insulted" you though.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I appreciate that this comment proves you have a comprehension problem, at least as far as my original comment goes. Given your posting history, it is funny that you are getting all PC about the fact that I "insulted" you though. One of the predictable comments from libs is the moral equivalency statements they make regarding the parties, and another is the speed and near certainty of personal insults. For you to call the mentioning of an insult PC is noteworthy, though.

[Fraggle145]

Nice insult, but you could elaborate about the usurpation and confiscation that is going on now, to give us your opinion about it, if you wish.

YOU CANT TALK POLITICS UNLESS YOU SLING MUD!!! OR JIZZ MAYBE ITS JIZZ!!! AND ONLY IF IT'S FROM MY PERSPECTIVE!!!

http://deathandtaxesmag.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/rush-limbaugh-793679.jpeg

[Fraggle145]

One of the predictable comments from libs is the moral equivalency statements they make regarding the parties, and another is the speed and near certainty of personal insults. For you to call the mentioning of an insult PC is noteworthy, though.

Questioning your reading comprehension is not an insult. Neither are suggestions of ignorance. It means you need to remove bias from your perspective and need to become more informed. Just because you dont understand the definition to words doesnt mean you get to make up new definitions for them.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Questioning your reading comprehension is not an insult. Neither are suggestions of ignorance. It means you need to remove bias from your perspective and need to become more informed. Just because you dont understand the definition to words doesnt mean you get to make up new definitions for them.haha. Good for you! Very impressive!

[Soonerjeepman]

morality is who you are....

I like the argument that IF you use your MORALS/PHILOSOPHY as a guide to your political guidelines you are ignorant or uninformed...whatever. On top of that, the people using that argument are using their MORALS/PHILOSOPHY to support their views...but feel free to bash others~

[StoopTroup]

YOU CANT TALK POLITICS UNLESS YOU SLING MUD!!! OR JIZZ MAYBE ITS JIZZ!!! AND ONLY IF IT'S FROM MY PERSPECTIVE!!!

http://deathandtaxesmag.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/rush-limbaugh-793679.jpeg

He's really looking healthy these days.

[SoonerBBall]

morality is who you are....

I like the argument that IF you use your MORALS/PHILOSOPHY as a guide to your political guidelines you are ignorant or uninformed...whatever. On top of that, the people using that argument are using their MORALS/PHILOSOPHY to support their views...but feel free to bash others~

Again, no one ever said you shouldn't use your own morals to inform you point of view. It is when you start lobbying for your morals to be enforced on others through law that it becomes wrong.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It is when you start lobbying for your morals to be enforced on others through law that it becomes wrong.So, is that really what you think, or is reading comprehension the problem?...

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Thou shalt not kill!...and People Should be treated equally...'cept, when it comes to killing, guilt or innocence doesn't seem to matter with a certain mindset....'cept that the guilty shouldn't be killed, but innocents of a certain(VERY young) age, no big wup!

[tator]

I know this topic is in the political forum, but it is about religion right? Not politics?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I know this topic is in the political forum, but it is about religion right? Not politics?Tell us what you want to say. It's cool. (do you know of ANY thread that always stays on the original topic?)

[Soonerjeepman]

Again, no one ever said you shouldn't use your own morals to inform you point of view. It is when you start lobbying for your morals to be enforced on others through law that it becomes wrong.

why? I believe abortion is wrong, I believe it's murder...murder = wrong.

I also believe that NATURE intended for a man/woman to have sexual relationships...I believe it's homosexuality is unnatural and shouldn't be protected. You want to have man/man sex...so be it, but keep it to yourself.

Just like you may believe these 2 things should be legal and vote that way...I don't. Let freedom ring, let freedom ring. Thank the good Lord this is America and we can vote how we want.

[StoopTroup]

Once everyone in DC is giving each other reach rounds or scissoring each other....we will all be well represented.

[SoonerBBall]

why? I believe abortion is wrong, I believe it's murder...murder = wrong.

I also believe that NATURE intended for a man/woman to have sexual relationships...I believe it's homosexuality is unnatural and shouldn't be protected. You want to have man/man sex...so be it, but keep it to yourself.

Just like you may believe these 2 things should be legal and vote that way...I don't. Let freedom ring, let freedom ring. Thank the good Lord this is America and we can vote how we want.

Why is it wrong to force your morals on others through the law? It is against the entire spirit (and letter) of the Constitution, that is why. Your entire rant against homosexuality is firmly rebutted in the Constitution's statement "all men are created equal" and that they should not be deprived of "life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness". It doesn't say that they only get as much life, liberty, and happiness as your morals decide. As long as they aren't infringing on the individual liberties of anyone else, it is none of your business who they have sex with or marry.

I'm also glad that we can vote how we want here in the US, but you do realize that in this great country that you don't have a right to vote, right?

[StoopTroup]

I think Free Speech is being attacked everyday in our Country. It's why Morals and Philosophies are getting attacked as well. It's happened before and it will happen again. History repeats itself.

[jk the sooner fan]

i've never understood why atheists -enter into a religious discussion

this would be like me entering into a discussion with medical doctors on surgical procedures

or having a discussion with mechanics on how to fix cars

i'm not judging - i just dont get it

[olevetonahill]

i've never understood why atheists -enter into a religious discussion

this would be like me entering into a discussion with medical doctors on surgical procedures

or having a discussion with mechanics on how to fix cars

i'm not judging - i just dont get it

I dont see why anyone debates it. Everyone has their own beliefs right or wrong, Why argue about it?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Again, no one ever said you shouldn't use your own morals to inform you point of view. It is when you start lobbying for your morals to be enforced on others through law that it becomes wrong.So, you are as disillusioned by the Left as you are with your perceived force by conservatives. What is it you object to from the Left?

[Fraggle145]

I dont see why anyone debates it. Everyone has their own beliefs right or wrong, Why argue about it?

I think it can be educational for both to better understand the others point of view. If they go in to the discussion realizing they arent going to change someone's minds.

[Fraggle145]

So, you are as disillusioned by the Left as you are with your perceived force by conservatives. What is it you object to from the Left?

Dude its like you are 13 years old and hanging outside the nudey mag store asking someone to buy porn for you to jerk off to or something...

[StoopTroup]

When someone brings something up....why is it always viewed as an argument. Discussions shouldn't be that hard. If you don't agree with someone you don't have to always try to Posse up and **** all over people either. Since we now have a Congress that has no real way to work things out....it's like we don't even have parties that can agree on anything but the parties all seem to continue to fracture. As that happens...The States are surely to follow. Small Counties will probably move towards fracturing counties away from Counties' with huge populations and then later both small and large will fracture arguing about what to do to get the medium size Counties to work with them to take down either the fracturing smaller or larger Counties and then the whole thing will repeat itself over and over.

One of the things I have always known is to follow the money. Follow the money and you will see why and who is involved in making changes. We are a Capitalist Country and Money is what keeps things running it. Morals and Philosophies are great ways to try and get folks to slow things down but it will never completely bring us a real answer to our Monetary Woes.

Boehner to the Senate: Get off your a$$ and do something!

Really?

Harry Reid: It's the House that is sitting on it's posterior!

ROTF....Morals....Philosophy....Left....right....

It's all about money.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Dude its like you are 13 years old and hanging outside the nudey mag store asking someone to buy porn for you to jerk off to or something...What is YOUR problem? He claims shenanigans by the Left bother him as much as defending the traditional marriage laws do. Yet neither he nor his guard dog(you) can enunciate anything Leftist that bother them. Go figure, with your scientific mind, what about that silly discrepancy is el estinko.

[StoopTroup]

Abortion bothers me.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Abortion bothers me.The HORROR of LGBT not being eligible for a marriage license(with one or more? of their same-sex chosen mates)is what chaps our dynamic duo of this thread.



well, that and the pro-life movement, I would imagine.

[StoopTroup]

The HORROR of LGBT not being eligible for a marriage license(with one or more? of their same-sex chosen mates)is what chaps our dynamic duo of this thread.



well, that and the pro-life movement, I would imagine.

No idea. I was just making a statement.

As a Christian...I know many folks live their lives taking chances getting pregnant or not worrying about whether or not they get their partner pregnant. I realize that legally we all have many ways to avoid pregnancy whether by Abstinence (a very difficult choice for many) or the many forms of birth control and even some folks who ask to be sterilized or by birth were unable to get pregnant or get someone pregnant.

What bothers me is just aborting a baby. Just the other day there was a story in the news where the Russians claim a Family abused an adopted Russian Child who died at their hands.

That always makes me wonder why there is so many People who wish to adopt a child not in position to help Women who do not wish to or are not able to take care of a child. Why are we allowing so many folks to basically buy unwanted children from Foreign Countries when we are basically killing unwanted children every day in America. I don't really wish to put an end to foreign Adoption if it is needed but I'd very much like to see a push to find Parents who would raise an unwanted child as their own and as a blessing from God.

[jk the sooner fan]

I think it can be educational for both to better understand the others point of view. If they go in to the discussion realizing they arent going to change someone's minds.

but you think what we believe in is pure fantasy - fiction, without any facts or science to support it

so why do you even care what our point of view is given your take on it?

i could see discussing political beliefs.......but atheism is a complete rejection of a religious God....what part of my point of view do you expect to understand? again - not criticizing - i just dont get it

[Fraggle145]

but you think what we believe in is pure fantasy - fiction, without any facts or science to support it

so why do you even care what our point of view is given your take on it?

i could see discussing political beliefs.......but atheism is a complete rejection of a religious God....what part of my point of view do you expect to understand? again - not criticizing - i just dont get it

Says the guy that likes to put words in my mouth... Have you ever read what I actually post?

I've said I'm agnostic. Vet and I had a whole thread on the possibility or evolution and god acting at the same time and the origin of life just like a week or two ago.

I think you cant prove or disprove god. Do I think god is highly improbable? yes. IMHO you are confusing the issues belief and faith vs. accepted facts and science. Belief or faith doesnt require evidence per se. Accepted facts and science do. I mean you dont need facts to support your belief in god right? Or do I misunderstand this?

Why do I care what others opinions are about the subject? Maybe that is the problem with religion (not necessarily god - if one exists). I care because I want to understand their point of view. Form friendships. Have discussion with people that see the world differently than me so as to increase my capacity to learn and understand from an alternative viewpoint. This helps is having discussions about other issues including politics, money, philosophy, etc...

[Fraggle145]

What is YOUR problem? He claims shenanigans by the Left bother him as much as defending the traditional marriage laws do. Yet neither he nor his guard dog(you) can enunciate anything Leftist that bother them. Go figure, with your scientific mind, what about that silly discrepancy is el estinko.

What is YOUR problem? I havent seen him go line by line about anything rightist or leftist. Why is it you only want to see him go against the left? But you dont care to see the problems of the right... could it be that you are biased? I argue that your perception that he has only gone against the right and has listed things is a misperception being perpetuated by you. Its like "WATCHING THE MSM MAKING THAT DAMN OBRAMA LOOK GOOD!" *grumble* *grumble* *grumble*

[jk the sooner fan]

Says the guy that likes to put words in my mouth... Have you ever read what I actually post?

I've said I'm agnostic. Vet and I had a whole thread on the possibility or evolution and god acting at the same time and the origin of life just like a week or two ago.

I think you cant prove or disprove god. Do I think god is highly improbable? yes. IMHO you are confusing the issues belief and faith vs. accepted facts and science. Belief or faith doesnt require evidence per se. Accepted facts and science do. I mean you dont need facts to support your belief in god right? Or do I misunderstand this?

Why do I care what others opinions are about the subject? Maybe that is the problem with religion (not necessarily god - if one exists). I care because I want to understand their point of view. Form friendships. Have discussion with people that see the world differently than me so as to increase my capacity to learn and understand from an alternative viewpoint. This helps is having discussions about other issues including politics, money, philosophy, etc...

actually no - i read very little of what you post outside the football folder

i think i was really directing the atheism comment toward yermom - but i stand corrected with respect to your position, and understand it

[SoonerBBall]

So, you are as disillusioned by the Left as you are with your perceived force by conservatives. What is it you object to from the Left?

-Assassination list with Americans on it
-Continued expansion of ridiculous anti-terrorism laws (all started by GWB, who I didn't have a serious problem with in general)
-Continued expansion of federal government and spending (also a problem I have with the Right)
-Expansion of class warfare through increased taxes on the middle class (middle class defined as anyone household making less than 400,000 a year adjusted by cost of living)
-Attack against small businesses and small business owners while continuing corporatism across the board (also a problem I have with the Right)
-Continuation of the two-tiered legal system where those with resources to use the legal system abuse those without (also a problem I have with the Right)
-Diversion of tax dollars into welfare programs instead of programs that encourage those in welfare to break the cycle
-Pursuit of any immigration policy that treats Latinos differently than immigrants from other countries and that does not aggressively pursue permanent measures for removing illegals with criminal records from within our boarders permanently
-The pursuit of extra benefits for minority groups of all types as opposed to true equality for all (also a problem I have with the Right, they just pick different minority groups i.e. the rich)
-Lack of real legal or punitive action against banks, bankers, and other heads of industry for their role in the economic turmoil in the last 5-10 years (also a problem I have with the Right)
-Fast and Furious
-Lack of legal or punitive action against the perpetrators of Fast and Furious
-Attack on the 2nd amendment and weapons rights
-Support for subsidies for "green" energies without any proven record of success
-Attack against nuclear power as a substantial alternative to energy problems (also a problem I have with the Right)
-Support for policies such as Cap and Trade without any evidence regarding their effect on the environment or their effect on the economy
-Use of the debt ceiling for political leverage as opposed to enforcing a realistic, scaling debt ceiling or getting rid of it all together (also a problem I have with the Right)

I could go on, but I think it is unnecessary. What you don't get is that the two parties are the same. They have fooled you with emotional topics that don't matter to hide the fact that they are f*cking us all over.

Abortion - doesn't matter. It is emotional, but ultimately comes down just the people involved and doesn't hold a candle to the real problems our country is facing
Same sex marriage - doesn't matter. Again, emotional, but how does this really affect anyone outside the people wanting to get married? It doesn't.
Climate change - matters more than the other two, but what the US does on its own pales in comparison to trying to get India, China, and other developing nations off fossil fuels. I don't see that happening soon.
Evolution vs ID - doesn't matter. Another emotional religion vs science debate to distract everyone from the pounding we're taking to our wallets and our individual liberties.

[FaninAma]

Why is it wrong to force your morals on others through the law? It is against the entire spirit (and letter) of the Constitution, that is why. Your entire rant against homosexuality is firmly rebutted in the Constitution's statement "all men are created equal" and that they should not be deprived of "life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness". It doesn't say that they only get as much life, liberty, and happiness as your morals decide. As long as they aren't infringing on the individual liberties of anyone else, it is none of your business who they have sex with or marry.

I'm also glad that we can vote how we want here in the US, but you do realize that in this great country that you don't have a right to vote, right?

Isn't "paying my fair share" of taxes a law based on enforcing a certain moral behavior(the rich pay more because it has been deemed "fair"? How about I just pay what I feel I should pay to support those less fortunate than me. Or we do away with the progressive tax structure and institute a pay as you go system. Would you be for that?

You can carry the screed about not legislating morality about as far as you care to. All laws are based on the premise that certain actions are moral and most legislate or enforce some moral behavior. You just disagree with the ones that would legislate something you disagree with.

[Sooner98]

Again, no one ever said you shouldn't use your own morals to inform you point of view. It is when you start lobbying for your morals to be enforced on others through law that it becomes wrong.

These people (who all want their morals to be enforced through the law) all say "hi":

http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gp3_slideshow_large/keystone_pipeline_protest_11_07_2011.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8EhVZR-E9C8/Tf_DL8ahW2I/AAAAAAAABKM/FB200iIQp0o/s1600/now_protest.jpg

http://www.sfexaminer.com/files/blog_images/OCCUPY%20WALL%20ST%20092911.jpg

http://images.politico.com/global/news/110421_seiu_protest_ap_328.jpg

http://www.understandingrace.org/images/482x270/gov/begin_end_affirm.jpg

http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/usa/neil_parekh_seiu_healthcare_775nw-health_care_protest_august.jpg

[C&CDean]

Heh.

[SoonerBBall]

Isn't "paying my fair share" of taxes a law based on enforcing a certain moral behavior(the rich pay more because it has been deemed "fair"? How about I just pay what I feel I should pay to support those less fortunate than me. Or we do away with the progressive tax structure and institute a pay as you go system. Would you be for that?

You can carry the screed about not legislating morality about as far as you care to. All laws are based on the premise that certain actions are moral and most legislate or enforce some moral behavior. You just disagree with the ones that would legislate something you disagree with.

Paying a fair share isn't a moral argument, it is a civic duty argument. If you like this country and want to benefit from it, you pay taxes to support it. Now, we can debate that the tax collection method is terrible (it is) and that it should be changed so that the collection method is more in line with our countries values (like a national sales tax as the only form of taxation), but to act like taxation is a moral issue is ridiculous. Just because the Left has promoted class warfare over taxation doesn't mean their arguments are right.

[SoonerBBall]

These people (who all want their morals to be enforced through the law) all say "hi":

Show me one of those things that isn't covered in my previous list.

I stated that neither side should be able to have laws force their morality on other individuals, not just one or the other.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

SoonerBBall, thanks for providing a list. It's a wild and wooly Pandora's Box, and controversial, but it appears as a serious answer. Can't say that i agree the conservatives have done anywhere near as many damaging things to the country as the Leftists, but your answers don't surprise.

[SoonerBBall]

SoonerBBall, thanks for providing a list. It's a wild and wooly Pandora's Box, and controversial, but it appears as a serious answer. Can't say that i agree the conservatives have done anywhere near as many damaging things to the country as the Leftists, but your answers don't surprise.

I think that at this point, trying to decide who has damaged the country more is a crapshoot. I think that the left has damaged the economy and welfare system to a nearly irreparable degree, but I think that the right has pushed us into an unheralded era of corporatism as well as supporting social policy retardation.

Unfortunately, I can't see a way out at this point. Federal politics is in a place so rigged towards the groomed political elite that I don't know how it can be fixed short of a literal revolution. I hope I'm wrong and that someone finds a way back.

[Sooner98]

Show me one of those things that isn't covered in my previous list.

I stated that neither side should be able to have laws force their morality on other individuals, not just one or the other.

I'm not saying the things in your list are necessarily right or wrong. I'm saying that everyone (yes, even the leftists from the pictures posted) should have the right to promote and pass legislation that they feel will be beneficial to the country, as long as it is Constitutional. Heck, almost all the laws that we have on the books today could be considered in one way or another to be an imposition of "morals" on people or groups of people.

[yermom]

actually no - i read very little of what you post outside the football folder

i think i was really directing the atheism comment toward yermom - but i stand corrected with respect to your position, and understand it

i think you underestimate me in my level of knowledge on religion. i was mostly asking about your interpretation. it all comes down to cherry picking anyway.

for some reason it's now generally accepted that Republican Jesus wants you to chase paper and leave the poor to their own devices.

Christians want to vote based on morality when it involves icky gays, but when it involves helping the poor. "that should be left for the church. don't tell me how to spend my money"

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm not saying the things in your list are necessarily right or wrong. I'm saying that everyone (yes, even the leftists from the pictures posted) should have the right to promote and pass legislation that they feel will be beneficial to the country, as long as it is Constitutional!. Heck, almost all the laws that we have on the books today could be considered in one way or another to be an imposition of "morals" on people or groups of people.Beautious!


Also, the SCOTUS has to be doing its job of Constitutional interpretation properly, for the system to work. NOT legislating from the bench.

[SoonerBBall]

I'm not saying the things in your list are necessarily right or wrong. I'm saying that everyone (yes, even the leftists from the pictures posted) should have the right to promote and pass legislation that they feel will be beneficial to the country, as long as it is Constitutional. Heck, almost all the laws that we have on the books today could be considered in one way or another to be an imposition of "morals" on people or groups of people.

I completely agree. I have been saying all along that as long as it doesn't infringe on the individual liberties of someone else, you are golden. The things I've argued against are those that are pretty clearly unconstitutional.

[tator]

Beautious!


Also, the SCOTUS has to be doing its job of Constitutional interpretation properly, for the system to work. NOT legislating from the bench.

A worthwhile post! It had to happen eventually :D

Still off topic though

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

A worthwhile post! It had to happen eventually :D

Still off topic thoughI have been consistent, so it's curious what you have been reading/interpreting.

[yermom]

yeah, Tator, it's obvious neo-conservatism is his religion. it's all on-topic

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

it's about the Constitution, and what is deemed constitutional. There are LOTS of things being done by present occupants in power that don't fit. is that a religion? If it is to you, there ya go.

[Fraggle145]

Heh.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

i think you underestimate me in my level of knowledge on religion. i was mostly asking about your interpretation. it all comes down to cherry picking anyway.

for some reason it's now generally accepted that Republican Jesus wants you to chase paper and leave the poor to their own devices.

Christians want to vote based on morality when it involves icky gays, but when it involves helping the poor. "that should be left for the church. don't tell me how to spend my money"

I think you mistake some people's dislike of gov't action for lack of compassion. Liberals are very compassionate when they can dole out other people's money. Studies have shown that religious folks give more to charities than their non-religious counterparts.

You see, a lot of us look at what gov't social engineering has done to the inner-cities as not very compassionate. A lot of us look at fostering gov't dependence as not very compassionate.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I think you mistake some people's dislike of gov't action for lack of compassion. Liberals are very compassionate when they can dole out other people's money. Studies have shown that religious folks give more to charities than their non-religious counterparts.

You see, a lot of us look at what gov't social engineering has done to the inner-cities as not very compassionate. A lot of us look at fostering gov't dependence as not very compassionate.This is NOT difficult to internalize. (besides the question of constitutionality of unauthorized social spending)

[SicEmBaylor]

So, any Jews out there?

[sooner_born_1960]

Yes, there are lots of Jews out there.

[SicEmBaylor]

Scientologists?
Hindus?

[FaninAma]

Paying a fair share isn't a moral argument, it is a civic duty argument. If you like this country and want to benefit from it, you pay taxes to support it. Now, we can debate that the tax collection method is terrible (it is) and that it should be changed so that the collection method is more in line with our countries values (like a national sales tax as the only form of taxation), but to act like taxation is a moral issue is ridiculous. Just because the Left has promoted class warfare over taxation doesn't mean their arguments are right.

No it's not. The progressive tax code is not a civic duty issue. It is based on the moral assumption that it is more just to make the well off pay more. We could have a national sales tax or some other from of non-progressive taxation but it has been deemed morally inferior to a progressive tax code. Why else do you think this country has adopted a progressive tax code?

We could carry the argument to the extereme....why not privatize everything the government does except national defense? Because it is our civic duty to all pitch in and pull together(unless you're the 47% riding in the federal recioent wagon). Isn't the whole concept of what our civic duty entails based on moral arguments?

Moral judgements are the basis of almost every thing the government does.

[FaninAma]

i think you underestimate me in my level of knowledge on religion. i was mostly asking about your interpretation. it all comes down to cherry picking anyway.

for some reason it's now generally accepted that Republican Jesus wants you to chase paper and leave the poor to their own devices.

Christians want to vote based on morality when it involves icky gays, but when it involves helping the poor. "that should be left for the church. don't tell me how to spend my money"

No, I am quite sure Jesus wanted all of the poor in this country to become dependent on the handouts from a secular federal government . I am quite sure He was lobbying Rome to give the poor in their empire even more handouts beyond the bread and circuses we know about.

[yermom]

I think you mistake some people's dislike of gov't action for lack of compassion. Liberals are very compassionate when they can dole out other people's money. Studies have shown that religious folks give more to charities than their non-religious counterparts.

You see, a lot of us look at what gov't social engineering has done to the inner-cities as not very compassionate. A lot of us look at fostering gov't dependence as not very compassionate.

so you would exchange it for reliance on the church instead?

[FaninAma]

so you would exchange it for reliance on the church instead?

I bet a religious based institution would have some expectations of the charity recipients to try and change the behavior that contrubuted to the situation of needing charity. The federal government makes no such requirement.

[SoonerBBall]

No it's not. The progressive tax code is not a civic duty issue. It is based on the moral assumption that it is more just to make the well off pay more. We could have a national sales tax or some other from of non-progressive taxation but it has been deemed morally inferior to a progressive tax code. Why else do you think this country has adopted a progressive tax code?

We could carry the argument to the extereme....why not privatize everything the government does except national defense? Because it is our civic duty to all pitch in and pull together(unless you're the 47% riding in the federal recioent wagon). Isn't the whole concept of what our civic duty entails based on moral arguments?

Moral judgements are the basis of almost every thing the government does.

My bad, I assumed you were arguing religious morality as opposed to some sense of general morality since this was a thread about religion.

[yermom]

I bet a religious based institution would have some expectations of the charity recipients to try and change the behavior that contrubuted to the situation of needing charity. The federal government makes no such requirement.

sure, accept Jesus, receive aid

[FirstandGoal]

Nice try, Sic'Em, but this thread is officially political :dejection:

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yermom: The Poor are not supposed to rely on anybody but themselves, unless incapacitated. Efforts should be made to help train and motivate folks who are not incapacitated. Constantly providing for them by any entity creates dependency. This is not difficult, is it?.

[FaninAma]

sure, accept Jesus, receive aid

I have worked with some religious based medical charities(Catholic Charities among others). I cannot think of one time when a patient had to agree to be prosletized in order to receive treatment. I am totally agnositc yet I was never asked about my religious beliefs.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

so you would exchange it for reliance on the church instead?

So only churches do charitable work? Is The United Way a Church? Is the Red Cross a church?

Do you find the gov't's social spending to be effective and compassionate?

[yermom]

it's just an example, but that is a large amount of "charitable giving" that goes on.

i think the government's "social spending" isn't as offensive as other things that it spends money on.

i'd rather see a pragmatic viewpoint, rather than suggesting that everyone on government assistance just needs to work harder

[Soonerjeepman]

Why is it wrong to force your morals on others through the law? It is against the entire spirit (and letter) of the Constitution, that is why. Your entire rant against homosexuality is firmly rebutted in the Constitution's statement "all men are created equal" and that they should not be deprived of "life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness". It doesn't say that they only get as much life, liberty, and happiness as your morals decide. As long as they aren't infringing on the individual liberties of anyone else, it is none of your business who they have sex with or marry.

I'm also glad that we can vote how we want here in the US, but you do realize that in this great country that you don't have a right to vote, right?

aborted babies? their rights to LIFE?

we'll just agree to disagree...I do think I can vote the way I want and you can vote the way you want. I was stating MY morals/philosophy direct me, your morals/philosophy direct you.

[FaninAma]

My bad, I assumed you were arguing religious morality as opposed to some sense of general morality since this was a thread about religion.
Are you proposing that there is no crossover between morality standards observed by religion and morality standards observed by secularists? I am not a particularly religious person but I agree with many of the moral standards found in various religions.

[Fraggle145]

Are you proposing that there is no crossover between morality standards observed by religion and morality standards observed by secularists? I am not a particularly religious person but I agree with many of the moral standards found in various religions.

But I would point out here that religion isnt necessary for the formation of morals.

[tator]

Nice try, Sic'Em, but this thread is officially political :dejection:

I tried. I was RLIMC'd.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

it's just an example, but that is a large amount of "charitable giving" that goes on.

i think the government's "social spending" isn't as offensive as other things that it spends money on.

i'd rather see a pragmatic viewpoint, rather than suggesting that everyone on government assistance just needs to work harder

That's fine bro, but I was just responding to your original post that said that Christians who don't accept gov't social spending aren't very Christian.

[FaninAma]

But I would point out here that religion isnt necessary for the formation of morals.

I agree. I would also point out that just because certain moral standards are observed in religion doesn't invalidate them as poor behavioral choices for the rest of society. I dislike the strawman argument that a certain moral behavioral standard shouldn't be adopted becuase certain religions are supporting the standard. If you disagree with the behavior standard then state so and support your disagreement with some evidence that the standard is detrimental to our society.

[yermom]

That's fine bro, but I was just responding to your original post that said that Christians who don't accept gov't social spending aren't very Christian.

that's not quite what i said