Russia: When An Entire Society Loses The Will To Live

[FaninAma]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/13-abortions-every-10-live-births-russia_700451.html


Russia's demographic disaster, Last details (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594036411/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1594036411&linkCode=as2&tag=jdc1234-20), is being exasperated by the fact that abortions are outpacing live births in Russia. "Abortion is rampant, with 13 abortions performed for every 10 live births," writes Last. "Consider that for a moment: Russians are so despondent about the future that they have 30 percent more abortions than births."
Last says (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594036411/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1594036411&linkCode=as2&tag=jdc1234-20) that "This might be the most grisly statistic the world has ever seen. It suggests a society that no longer has the will to live."

Interesting but sad.

[Soonerjeepman]

wow...that is crazy

on a political side...I guess they don't have obamacare with free bc. I just don't understand folks who have sex but don't think they will get pregnant..so if ya aren't married and don't WANT kids then don't have sex or take precautions.

[FaninAma]

wow...that is crazy

on a political side...I guess they don't have obamacare with free bc. I just don't understand folks who have sex but don't think they will get pregnant..so if ya aren't married and don't WANT kids then don't have sex or take precautions.

I thought it was interesting not because of the abortion issue but because an entire society has become so nihilistic that they are commiting demographic suicide. The same thing can be seen in most of Europe. I know I am treading on thin ice by making the following statement but there is some evidence that all white-dominated cultures/societies are heading in this direction.

I also think that nihilistic attitudes start with the loss of moral and ethical standards in a society.

[KantoSooner]

Japan currently numbers something like 123 million, but the demographic curves indicate that there is no stopping shrinkage before the population reaches somewhere between 85-90 million. In that case, the root cause is that child bearing effectively ends a young woman's life. She becomes, for all intents and purposes, a house drudge, and if the mother-in-law is close enough, a household slave to the MIL as well.
Not surprisingly, many young women there are avoiding marriage and child bearing.
I think what we are seeing there and in Russia and many other places is that the costs of child bearing, measured broadly, are too high in many places. When life turns into an endless slog with no hope of improvement, there is little reason to engage in the most essentially optimistic of enterprises: having kids.
Rather than tying this to abortion or the death/dearth of standards, I'd argue that the root cause is a lack of joy, fun, lightness and hope in society.
Too much work, too, is an issue. Who is happier? The guy who is working 7 day weeks so that he can buy a lakehouse? Or the guy who is picnicking at a public park next to that lake with his hot girlfriend with a big chance for sex in the bushes afterwards? You can go too far in either direction, but the point is that we need to have balance. Russia, Japan and some other places have clearly lost theirs.

[FaninAma]

Japan currently numbers something like 123 million, but the demographic curves indicate that there is no stopping shrinkage before the population reaches somewhere between 85-90 million. In that case, the root cause is that child bearing effectively ends a young woman's life. She becomes, for all intents and purposes, a house drudge, and if the mother-in-law is close enough, a household slave to the MIL as well.
Not surprisingly, many young women there are avoiding marriage and child bearing.
I think what we are seeing there and in Russia and many other places is that the costs of child bearing, measured broadly, are too high in many places. When life turns into an endless slog with no hope of improvement, there is little reason to engage in the most essentially optimistic of enterprises: having kids.
Rather than tying this to abortion or the death/dearth of standards, I'd argue that the root cause is a lack of joy, fun, lightness and hope in society.
Too much work, too, is an issue. Who is happier? The guy who is working 7 day weeks so that he can buy a lakehouse? Or the guy who is picnicking at a public park next to that lake with his hot girlfriend with a big chance for sex in the bushes afterwards? You can go too far in either direction, but the point is that we need to have balance. Russia, Japan and some other places have clearly lost theirs.

Kanto, that is one of the most insightful posts I have read on this or any other board. I would only add that people feel burned out and start to develop a nihilistic attitude when they feel they have no or little control over their lives. I think there are several contributing factors to this but the biggest factor, IMO, is the loss of control of our economic futures due to decisions and actions being taken by our government. The specific actions are probably best saved for another thread. I will make one observation. It seems the more intrusive a government becomes the more nihilistic the citizens become. That is why we are seeing this phenomenon in the more socialistic countries.

[okie52]

Japan currently numbers something like 123 million, but the demographic curves indicate that there is no stopping shrinkage before the population reaches somewhere between 85-90 million. In that case, the root cause is that child bearing effectively ends a young woman's life. She becomes, for all intents and purposes, a house drudge, and if the mother-in-law is close enough, a household slave to the MIL as well.
Not surprisingly, many young women there are avoiding marriage and child bearing.
I think what we are seeing there and in Russia and many other places is that the costs of child bearing, measured broadly, are too high in many places. When life turns into an endless slog with no hope of improvement, there is little reason to engage in the most essentially optimistic of enterprises: having kids.
Rather than tying this to abortion or the death/dearth of standards, I'd argue that the root cause is a lack of joy, fun, lightness and hope in society.
Too much work, too, is an issue. Who is happier? The guy who is working 7 day weeks so that he can buy a lakehouse? Or the guy who is picnicking at a public park next to that lake with his hot girlfriend with a big chance for sex in the bushes afterwards? You can go too far in either direction, but the point is that we need to have balance. Russia, Japan and some other places have clearly lost theirs.

Japan needed the population decrease...123,000,000 people living in an area the size of California with virtually no natural resources. Russia is one of the few countries that actually grow it's population and not suffer due to its geographical size and abundant resources.

[Midtowner]

This has more to do with access and education about other forms of contraception than anything else. Recent efforts to educate and to provide forms of contraceptives have had a strong effect in Russia.

[SoonerorLater]

I thought it was interesting not because of the abortion issue but because an entire society has become so nihilistic that they are commiting demographic suicide. The same thing can be seen in most of Europe. I know I am treading on thin ice by making the following statement but there is some evidence that all white-dominated cultures/societies are heading in this direction.

I also think that nihilistic attitudes start with the loss of moral and ethical standards in a society.

Its like listening to Nirvana in perpetuity.

[KantoSooner]

Kanto, that is one of the most insightful posts I have read on this or any other board. I would only add that people feel burned out and start to develop a nihilistic attitude when they feel they have no or little control over their lives. I think there are several contributing factors to this but the biggest factor, IMO, is the loss of control of our economic futures due to decisions and actions being taken by our government. The specific actions are probably best saved for another thread. I will make one observation. It seems the more intrusive a government becomes the more nihilistic the citizens become. That is why we are seeing this phenomenon in the more socialistic countries.

To me, it's intimately tied up with the whole 'Pursuit of happiness' thing and recognition of a proper private sphere in life. When people are forced to live as cogs in a bigger machine, they sooner or later burn out and simply don't care to go on living. American Indians were virtually impossible to enslave. They would simply lie down and die in many cases rather than live that life.

Russians, I think, were cruelly disappointed when the overthrow of the Soviet system was followed by a neo-kleptocracy that kept all the old badness in place. Many of them have given up.

[KantoSooner]

Japan needed the population decrease...123,000,000 people living in an area the size of California with virtually no natural resources. Russia is one of the few countries that actually grow it's population and not suffer due to its geographical size and abundant resources.

You'd get no argument from me on that (although there are places there outside the major cities, that are breathtakingly beautiful, natural and serene). The mechanism of the decrease is, however, troubling - the slow motion self-culling of an entire generation because the traditional culture was so deseased that abstinence from one of life's primary joys and functions is preferable to obedience to the norms of that culture.

The geriatric old boys who run Japan and prattle on about duty and tradition should go home and hang themselves.

[FaninAma]

To me, it's intimately tied up with the whole 'Pursuit of happiness' thing and recognition of a proper private sphere in life. When people are forced to live as cogs in a bigger machine, they sooner or later burn out and simply don't care to go on living. American Indians were virtually impossible to enslave. They would simply lie down and die in many cases rather than live that life.

Russians, I think, were cruelly disappointed when the overthrow of the Soviet system was followed by a neo-kleptocracy that kept all the old badness in place. Many of them have given up.

You summed up my opinion on the subject a lot more succinctly than I could have. I really can't add anything else. In some individuals and groups the desire of self-determination is stronger than the desire to live in a controlled environment. Physicians tend to be that way. We are the biggest control freaks you will ever find and as the government and other entities encroach on our domain a lot of us are getting burned out and are increasingly willing to give up the profession. A recent survey of doctors revealed that over 1/2 of them admitted to being burned out and considering retiring a lot earlier than they thought they would.

I guess the flipside of this coin would be to determine if there are personlaities or groups that actually thrive under increasing government control. And I am not trying to denigrate any groups but I would assume there are individuals and groups that actually like somebody else making their decisions for them.

[FaninAma]

You'd get no argument from me on that (although there are places there outside the major cities, that are breathtakingly beautiful, natural and serene). The mechanism of the decrease is, however, troubling - the slow motion self-culling of an entire generation because the traditional culture was so deseased that abstinence from one of life's primary joys and functions is preferable to obedience to the norms of that culture.

The geriatric old boys who run Japan and prattle on about duty and tradition should go home and hang themselves.

I think they prefer to call it seppuku in Japan.

[KantoSooner]

Seppuku is ritual suicide by disemboweling yourself (generally with a 'second' standing behind you with a long sword katana to behead you when you begin to lose your composure and embarass yourself).
It's an honorable way to go, if a tad on the overly dramatic side. (and the poetry composed by guys as they contemplated their own innards and slowly died is a hell of an effort, but really not very good poetry.)
Nope, for the dullards in charge of things these days, that's way too good. Go home, fold a wire clothes hanger over the bar in the closet, close the door and stick your head in the noose. That's what they deserve.

[Curly Bill]

You summed up my opinion on the subject a lot more succinctly than I could have. I really can't add anything else. In some individuals and groups the desire of self-determination is stronger than the desire to live in a controlled environment. Physicians tend to be that way. We are the biggest control freaks you will ever find and as the government and other entities encroach on our domain a lot of us are getting burned out and are increasingly willing to give up the profession. A recent survey of doctors revealed that over 1/2 of them admitted to being burned out and considering retiring a lot earlier than they thought they would.

I guess the flipside of this coin would be to determine if there are personlaities or groups that actually thrive under increasing government control. And I am not trying to denigrate any groups but I would assume there are individuals and groups that actually like somebody else making their decisions for them.


I call em losers, or what we typically know them as in the USofA: liberals.