#20 class

[LakeRat]

8time, I know you keep saying that your excited about this class and our recruiting hasn't fallen off. AND I don't follow recruiting like others, but I need some sunshine pumping!!

Help me see the light!!

[Boomer.....]

We are #15 on Rivals and #16 on Scout. If LJ Moore commits, then it will go up.

I wouldn't worry too much about stars and rankings.

[OUNASH]

Based on Rivals ranking system this is the lowest ranked class Oklahoma has had in 13 years. Somewhat concerning.

[EatLeadCommie]

To be expected after two mediocre seasons and with limited instate talent. I fear the product on the field will get worse before it gets better.

[One4OU]

It will be up to the coaches to develop these guys. Im not sure that has been happening like it once was. If we can develop them we will be fine, if we continue on with the current scheme we are in trouble.

We like to follow stars but I hope our staff is evaluating better and finding players that want to be here, want to work hard, and want to play hard. The staff has gotten caught up with stars and needs to get back to the roots ala 1999 recruiting based on needs.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Based on Rivals ranking system this is the lowest ranked class Oklahoma has had in 13 years. Somewhat concerning.

It is going to take some work to be worse than the 2003 class.

[Curly Bill]

I know the whole star thing is overrated, but the concerning thing is us not being able to pull in a lot of the kids we targeted. In other words: we're not seen as attractive a destination as we were a few years ago. Long term that's not a helpful trend.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I know the whole star thing is overrated, but the concerning thing is us not being able to pull in a lot of the kids we targeted. In other words: we're not seen as attractive a destination as we were a few years ago. Long term that's not a helpful trend.

Do you have numbers? I mean we typically target a little over 5 kids to get 1 are you saying that was worse this year?

[Curly Bill]

Do you have numbers? I mean we typically target a little over 5 kids to get 1 are you saying that was worse this year?

No numbers, totally anecdotal. It seems like many of the kids we'd targeted we missed on, and had to "settle" for someone else. That happens every year of course, but it seems like it happened more this year.

[sluggo sooner]

Any theories as to how we are ranked 15 by Rivals and 20 by ESPN; and Texas is ranked 23 by Rivals and 15 by ESPN? Although they are not ranked exactly the same, Rivals and ESPN otherwise seem to have the same teams in groups 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, etc.

[Fraggle145]

http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/signing_classes_archive.html#2003

Here's a look back at all of the previous classes under Stoops. After looking at that 2003 class, man we made it through missing on pretty much everyone. It kind of puts things in perspective.

[One4OU]

I know the whole star thing is overrated, but the concerning thing is us not being able to pull in a lot of the kids we targeted. In other words: we're not seen as attractive a destination as we were a few years ago. Long term that's not a helpful trend.

Do you have numbers? I mean we typically target a little over 5 kids to get 1 are you saying that was worse this year?

Maybe this is the feeling because we seem to be signing 2 star players and a lot more 3 star players than prior years.

Im not saying these guys cant play but our targeted players past and present were not rated this low. It can also be seen in our overall class rating this year.

[Curly Bill]

In the end a 3-star that sticks around and works hard is more valuable than a 4 or 5-star that decides to bail when things are tough, or is unwilling to work at improving. If the new class, even if they may underated compared to other classes, will stick around and put in the work then they and OU will be fine.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

In the end a 3-star that sticks around and works hard is more valuable than a 4 or 5-star that decides to bail when things are tough, or is unwilling to work at improving. If the new class, even if they may underated compared to other classes, will stick around and put in the work then they and OU will be fine.

Even more importantly a 3 star who is here for 5 years is much more important to us than a 4-5 who only stays 3.

[Curly Bill]

Now...lets see if we can do a better job of coaching and developing these guys, cause that's where the rubber meets the road.

[SoonerorLater]

Maybe this is the feeling because we seem to be signing 2 star players and a lot more 3 star players than prior years.

Im not saying these guys cant play but our targeted players past and present were not rated this low. It can also be seen in our overall class rating this year.

To me it's obvious we are whiffing on bigger name recruits. Why else are we picking up these two star guys at the 11th hour? If OU thought highly of these guys they would have offered them earlier on in the process. It may be more than an OU issue. The whole conference seems to be suffering recruiting-wise. For whatever reason we seem to not be capturing the imagination of higher ranked recruits. In other words recruits with lots of choices seems to be choosing other options.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

To me it's obvious we are whiffing on bigger name recruits. Why else are we picking up these two star guys at the 11th hour? If OU thought highly of these guys they would have offered them earlier on in the process. It may be more than an OU issue. The whole conference seems to be suffering recruiting-wise. For whatever reason we seem to not be capturing the imagination of higher ranked recruits. In other words recruits with lots of choices seems to be choosing other options.

I know we are never going to agree on this, but generally when we miss on "higher ranked" targets we are missing on perceived athleticism. The lower ranked kids that we have taken have been better at the game of football but don't have as much athleticism. In general terms, having someone who can execute and, more importantly, plays every down can somewhat offset the fact that he isn't as fast as the other guy.

http://ouvince.com/ouvince/page/2000-Recruiting-Class.aspx

For example, Ataleo Ford vs Wes Welker

Would we have been a better team with Welker over Ford? Yes. Was TTech a better team with Welker? Yes. Were they better against us? No. Texas? No. And therein lies the rub. Taking the more athletic kid is the only way to have an advantage in the 1-2 games a year where he is faced with someone that is more athletic than he is. That is why I'm not too concerned with not having a bunch of stars in 1-2 classes every 4-5 years. OU has always been able to get athletic freaks, but where we are dominant is when we seed those guys with every down blue collar guys.

[Curly Bill]

I know we are never going to agree on this, but generally when we miss on "higher ranked" targets we are missing on perceived athleticism. The lower ranked kids that we have taken have been better at the game of football but don't have as much athleticism. In general terms, having someone who can execute and, more importantly, plays every down can somewhat offset the fact that he isn't as fast as the other guy.

http://ouvince.com/ouvince/page/2000-Recruiting-Class.aspx

For example, Ataleo Ford vs Wes Welker

Would we have been a better team with Welker over Ford? Yes. Was TTech a better team with Welker? Yes. Were they better against us? No. Texas? No. And therein lies the rub. Taking the more athletic kid is the only way to have an advantage in the 1-2 games a year where he is faced with someone that is more athletic than he is. That is why I'm not too concerned with not having a bunch of stars in 1-2 classes every 4-5 years. OU has always been able to get athletic freaks, but where we are dominant is when we seed those guys with every down blue collar guys.

We get our solid blue collar guys this year, and then next year we're supposed to clean up, largely because of next years outstanding Oklahoma HS class. I like the plan if it works.

[Sabanball]

I'll probably get trashed for saying this, but I think the whole 'TAMU to SEC' is one dynamic--though not all of it--that now is working against you guys. Texas is Texas and they will usually get who they want out of their state, but I think when the aggies decided to bolt for the SEC it made it much harder for everyone else, especially north of the RR, to now just go into the state and with the effort they've put forth in the past get the players that they want. I still think you guys and the whorns will get the lion's share of elite talent, but you will have to work harder for it. JMO...tifwiw...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

While I'm sure that may be part of it, another issue is that the top talent in Texas has been worse than a crapshoot for the last 5 years. I mean none of the "GIVE ME STARS" dudes on this board is going to fess up that RJ Washington's 10 snap a game career is a little under their expectations. However, there have been some really good players buried in the 3-4 star range in that same period.

Also, outside of Cale Gundy (who I had classes with), I just can't say for sure that our staff is dumb. Hopefully they have intelligent people analyzing the data so that they can see where their flaws in the past are.

[Soonerjeepman]

Any theories as to how we are ranked 15 by Rivals and 20 by ESPN; and Texas is ranked 23 by Rivals and 15 by ESPN? Although they are not ranked exactly the same, Rivals and ESPN otherwise seem to have the same teams in groups 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, etc.

longhorn network....

[One4OU]

Now...lets see if we can do a better job of coaching and developing these guys, cause that's where the rubber meets the road.

^^^^THIS.


5 star or 2 star doesnt make a crap if the coaches arent going to develop players and a team concept.

Too many coaching blunders and lack of organization the last few years makes me doubtful. We dont have the team that can just dominate any more the coaches are going to have to work.

[8timechamps]

8time, I know you keep saying that your excited about this class and our recruiting hasn't fallen off. AND I don't follow recruiting like others, but I need some sunshine pumping!!

Help me see the light!!

You got it...

The more I see this class, the more excited I am. One or two of the DTs that OU got are going to develop into seriously good tackles. It also looks like L.J. Moore will sign with OU, which makes this one of the better DB classes in a while. Ford is a stud RB, that could have gone just about anywhere. I could go on and on, and while I don't think this class is one of Stoops' top 5 classes, it's a very solid class.

We miss on guys that are targeted every year, this year was no different. I think the Justin Manning thing just made it more of a focal point.

I'll do a write up tonight, so hopefully that'll change your mind.

[sooner KB]

You got it...

The more I see this class, the more excited I am. One or two of the DTs that OU got are going to develop into seriously good tackles. It also looks like L.J. Moore will sign with OU, which makes this one of the better DB classes in a while. Ford is a stud RB, that could have gone just about anywhere. I could go on and on, and while I don't think this class is one of Stoops' top 5 classes, it's a very solid class.

We miss on guys that are targeted every year, this year was no different. I think the Justin Manning thing just made it more of a focal point.

I'll do a write up tonight, so hopefully that'll change your mind.

Are we getting Toby Johnson?

[8timechamps]

Are we getting Toby Johnson?

50/50 chance.

He has until next week to announce, but I think OU is still in the hunt.

[cleller]

I'll probably get trashed for saying this, but I think the whole 'TAMU to SEC' is one dynamic--though not all of it--that now is working against you guys. Texas is Texas and they will usually get who they want out of their state, but I think when the aggies decided to bolt for the SEC it made it much harder for everyone else, especially north of the RR, to now just go into the state and with the effort they've put forth in the past get the players that they want. I still think you guys and the whorns will get the lion's share of elite talent, but you will have to work harder for it. JMO...tifwiw...

No need to tell you this, but I think ATM is going to be awfully good, and will get the majority of the best Texas players. Sumlin is on a big roll.

As for the OU class, we all know how the star ranking can backfire. Still, #20 worries me some. Lately we have not been pulling off feats of coaching like Snyder did this year.

[8timechamps]

Just to give everyone (that doesn't follow recruiting closely) an idea of how this year's class stacks up (from the various services), here's an overview:

Scouts/ESPN
Oklahoma #20
Texas #15

Rivals
Oklahoma #15
Texas #24

24/7 Sports
Oklahoma #15
Texas #16

First, you can see there is a difference between Scouts/ESPN and Rivals/247 Sports. Is this class #15 or #20? Then, look at Texas, are they at #15 or #24?

This is a perfect example of how inconsistent the services are. Do not put much faith into their class rankings. Not only are they a more scientific form of guessing, there are far too many variables for them to be very meaningful. I would feel the same way (and I have) if OU's class was ranked #2. It just doesn't mean much.

EDIT: ESPN/Scouts has changed OU's class (with the late addition of Moore), they are currently ranked #16. I'd say that's about where it should be. I still think it's pretty worthless though.

[sooneron]

After looking at the guys that we got, I'm happy with the majority of the make up of this class. Not so thrilled that we landed a boat load of DBs and not many LBs. I realize some of the smaller DEs that we signed will probably be moved to the outside, but we are lacking the space taking/ big LB in the middle.
We did get some ?s that smaller schools wanted, but we also beat out some of the other big boys for quite a few players. I'm guessing that Evans is rillay smart, seeing as who was offering him.

[toast]

Even more importantly a 3 star who is here for 5 years is much more important to us than a 4-5 who only stays 3.

Especially when considering the tendency of the 3 year guys to kind of coast their last year.

[8timechamps]

After looking at the guys that we got, I'm happy with the majority of the make up of this class. Not so thrilled that we landed a boat load of DBs and not many LBs. I realize some of the smaller DEs that we signed will probably be moved to the outside, but we are lacking the space taking/ big LB in the middle.
We did get some ?s that smaller schools wanted, but we also beat out some of the other big boys for quite a few players. I'm guessing that Evans is rillay smart, seeing as who was offering him.

There's no question that this class missed at LB. The good news is that next year looks to be a very deep pool of LBs, and OU is already in on some very good kids. The bad news is that there were only two LBs in this class. Otherwise, a very solid group.

Evans is a bit of an enigma. Stoops even discussed him at his presser today, basically saying they aren't sure where he'll play. He even said he's going to get a shot at returning kicks (I'm assuming in practice, I can't imagine him being better than what we already have). Anyway, pretty clear indicator that he's a versatile athlete.

[Fraggle145]

There's no question that this class missed at LB. The good news is that next year looks to be a very deep pool of LBs, and OU is already in on some very good kids. The bad news is that there were only two LBs in this class. Otherwise, a very solid group.

Evans is a bit of an enigma. Stoops even discussed him at his presser today, basically saying they aren't sure where he'll play. He even said he's going to get a shot at returning kicks (I'm assuming in practice, I can't imagine him being better than what we already have). Anyway, pretty clear indicator that he's a versatile athlete.

I think returning kicks is something that certain players just have a knack for doing. See Justin Brown, Antonio Perkins... I've seen this kid in person and its like, "Why cant they tackle him?" and they just dont. He has a great feel for it.

[Curly Bill]

While I'm sure that may be part of it, another issue is that the top talent in Texas has been worse than a crapshoot for the last 5 years. I mean none of the "GIVE ME STARS" dudes on this board is going to fess up that RJ Washington's 10 snap a game career is a little under their expectations. However, there have been some really good players buried in the 3-4 star range in that same period.

Also, outside of Cale Gundy (who I had classes with), I just can't say for sure that our staff is dumb. Hopefully they have intelligent people analyzing the data so that they can see where their flaws in the past are.

I like landing all the 5-star recruits we can, but I've never shied away from calling RJ Washington a bust.

[Mjcpr]

Hopefully they have intelligent people analyzing the data so that they can see where their flaws in the past are.

Maybe you could just tell them what they've done wrong and how to fix it.

[LakeRat]

Why do SEC teams sign 30 people, and we only sign 25?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Why do SEC teams sign 30 people, and we only sign 25?

A lot of it has to do with graduation rates. I don't know if the big 12 ever actually put something in place, but there was a lot of talk about implementing scholarship penalties for schools if they didn't keep their rates up. I think Texas and aTm were the ones threatening that. Obviously aTm has come off of their high horse in the SEC.

[8timechamps]

Why do SEC teams sign 30 people, and we only sign 25?

Fuzzy math.

Seriously, a lot (as jkm mentioned) has to do with graduation/losing players. Although there is a limit (25) on the number of kids a school can sign, the schools can use low numbers from previous classes to increase the players they sign this year. In A&M's case, Sumlin had room to add more than the 25 due to previous losses. It's within the rules, but controversial.

[LakeRat]

Fuzzy math.

Seriously, a lot (as jkm mentioned) has to do with graduation/losing players. Although there is a limit (25) on the number of kids a school can sign, the schools can use low numbers from previous classes to increase the players they sign this year. In A&M's case, Sumlin had room to add more than the 25 due to previous losses. It's within the rules, but controversial.

So why don't we use "fuzzy math"? I am just thinking that signing 30 gives us the ability to go ahead and recruit and find the Justin Blackmon's and Wes Welker's that we turned down, b/c we thought we got better players.

[8timechamps]

So why don't we use "fuzzy math"? I am just thinking that signing 30 gives us the ability to go ahead and recruit and find the Justin Blackmon's and Wes Welker's that we turned down, b/c we thought we got better players.

Stoops is too moral. While there is no official rule that you can't sign more than 25 (except, humorously enough, in the SEC), Stoops has never and will never oversign.

Here's an example, let's say Sterling Shepard got injured, and wasn't going to play. Stoops would keep him on scholarship and fill his scholarship once he graduated. Saban would not. Most likely, Saban would either encourage him to transfer or greyshirt him. Then fill his scholarship immediately.

Personally, I prefer Stoops' method, even if it puts OU at a slight disadvantage to some other schools.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Stoops is too moral. While there is no official rule that you can't sign more than 25 (except, humorously enough, in the SEC), Stoops has never and will never oversign.

Here's an example, let's say Sterling Shepard got injured, and wasn't going to play. Stoops would keep him on scholarship and fill his scholarship once he graduated. Saban would not. Most likely, Saban would either encourage him to transfer or greyshirt him. Then fill his scholarship immediately.

Personally, I prefer Stoops' method, even if it puts OU at a slight disadvantage to some other schools.

Well sort of. Stoops does oversign. Anyone who leaves the program is replaced. He also kicks people off the team that break team rules. The major difference is that he doesn't remove scholarships from players for poor play.

Before the 'bama guys get into defend the SEC, here is your litmus test for oversigning:

1. If you are over the 85 man limit on signing day.
2. If you are at the 85 man limit on the 1st day of fall practice.

Stoops has occasionally went 1 or 2 over on signing day. This has typically resolved itself with either a medical redshirt or a non-qualification. He has NEVER entered a season with 85 on scholarship. As a matter of a fact, most years he has been under 80. Thus he reacts to attrition, he doesn't proactively plan on attrition (which is how the SEC clears 12 guys from signing day to fall camp to end up with 85).

[8timechamps]

Well sort of. Stoops does oversign. Anyone who leaves the program is replaced. He also kicks people off the team that break team rules. The major difference is that he doesn't remove scholarships from players for poor play.

Before the 'bama guys get into defend the SEC, here is your litmus test for oversigning:

1. If you are over the 85 man limit on signing day.
2. If you are at the 85 man limit on the 1st day of fall practice.

Stoops has occasionally went 1 or 2 over on signing day. This has typically resolved itself with either a medical redshirt or a non-qualification. He has NEVER entered a season with 85 on scholarship. As a matter of a fact, most years he has been under 80. Thus he reacts to attrition, he doesn't proactively plan on attrition (which is how the SEC clears 12 guys from signing day to fall camp to end up with 85).

There's a big difference in oversigning to attain the best possible talent, and replacing kids that are kicked off the team and/or medically unable to play.

My Sterling Shepard is an example of Stoops M.O., which is different that that of Saban.