It'll be a sad day when Boy Scouts will close it's doors.

[Soonerjeepman]

I'd rather scouts go private,not sure that would even stop this or close up shop than allow this crap.

I think that any troop that had an open gay scoutmaster would not be successful in general. Sure there would be some folks that supported it but in general not. It's bad enough that when ya go to
camp there are a crap load of women now. (if girl scouts is sooo bad then MAKE IT BETTER...like Boy Scouts - that's what I always hear from the women leaders).

It's just simply amazing and unbelievable what this buffoon is doing.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/04/obama-courts-backlash-with-gay-scoutmaster-stance/

[okie52]

Obama is still evolving...could be merging boy and girl scouts for coed campfires...not to leave out the homos, lesbos, transgenders, and bisexuals to make it really interesting.

Kumbaya!

[Midtowner]

Other than prevailing ignorance and hatred for homosexuals, what do you suppose would motivate anyone to be the least bit concerned about this?

[okie52]

Other than the ignorance and hatred of private organizations that don't embrace PC....just the continuing evolution of our president.


If he only had a son...he wouldn't play football, would look like a dead thug, and might be a scout if they were open to gay scouts and scoutmasters...if only...

[Midtowner]

Other than the ignorance and hatred of private organizations that don't embrace PC....just the continuing evolution of our president.


If he only had a son...he wouldn't play football, would look like a dead thug, and might be a scout if they were open to gay scouts and scoutmasters...if only...

No, go ahead, lay out some reasonable basis not couched in paranoia or hatred of homosexuals. Maybe something backed by research.

[olevetonahill]

Kinda Like abortion IMHO. I aint got a dog in this fight so Ima just stay out of it.

[badger]

I loved my time in Girl Scouts, but I knew a boy that was teased and bullied in Boy Scouts and the leaders really didn't do much to stop it (some of the bullies parents were scout leaders). The Girl Scout leaders were good in that regard, to make sure everyone felt included in projects and had fun.

I know that the stereotype is that teenage girls and backstabby b!tches, but it all depends on the girls.

PS: Boy Scouts is a private organization and is free to do whatever it wants, and if it decides to go this route, then similar to religious denominations, there will be new branches formed and scout troops that vote themselves out, methinks

[BigTip]

Google: Is Obama ....

The second or third one that comes up is "Gay?"

I have read multiple things about this. College day stuff, bars in Chicago. I thought it was just all made up stuff to try and smear him for the campaign. But maybe there is something to it and now he's using his position to further their rights.

nttawwt! lol

[okie52]

No, go ahead, lay out some reasonable basis not couched in paranoia or hatred of homosexuals. Maybe something backed by research.

How about the scouts don't want homos, atheists or girls/women in the boy scouts. They are a private organization...a point that seems lost on you and others. And if the homos, atheists, or girls/women want their own private organization that excludes heterosexual and/or Christian/theist males they are free to do so.

They don't have to be the big tent...pup tent will do just fine if that's what they want.

[KantoSooner]

Young boys dressed in para-military uniforms going camping in the woods with grown men wearing para-military uniforms. Under the authority of an organization founded by a man who preached cold showers, twice a day, to keep 'unmanly' thoughts from the minds of those young boys.

Oh, no, there's never been anything remotely homosexual about the Boy Scouts. Nothing. Never.

[pphilfran]

Paramilitary! lol

[okie52]

Young boys dressed in para-military uniforms going camping in the woods with grown men wearing para-military uniforms. Under the authority of an organization founded by a man who preached cold showers, twice a day, to keep 'unmanly' thoughts from the minds of those young boys.

Oh, no, there's never been anything remotely homosexual about the Boy Scouts. Nothing. Never.

So the founder was gay or at least eccentric? Break em up...can't have anything like that in their history 100 years ago. The scouts never appealed to me but I certainly support the right of the organization to have its rules and bylaws...and I certainly hate to see whatever their views are discarded because of PC....hard to get any faggier than that.

[okie52]

Paramilitary! lol

I got a kick out of that too. Nazi youth group.

[KantoSooner]

So the founder was gay or at least eccentric? Break em up...can't have anything like that in their history 100 years ago. The scouts never appealed to me but I certainly support the right of the organization to have its rules and bylaws...and I certainly hate to see whatever their views are discarded because of PC....hard to get any faggier than that.

Okie, I'm just laughing at 'em, not dictating what they must do. Baden Baden Powell, the founder in question was a bit weird. He was almost certainly a closeted gay and sought to control his own urges by involving himself in any number of authoritarian movements and organizations. (He greatly admired the early Nazi party and wanted to found a British party on its model). His vision for the Boy Scouts included a direct linkage with the British military.

[diverdog]

Okie, I'm just laughing at 'em, not dictating what they must do. Baden Baden Powell, the founder in question was a bit weird. He was almost certainly a closeted gay and sought to control his own urges by involving himself in any number of authoritarian movements and organizations. (He greatly admired the early Nazi party and wanted to found a British party on its model). His vision for the Boy Scouts included a direct linkage with the British military.

Well that pretty much describes all British men, don't ya think? :)

[Midtowner]

How about the scouts don't want homos, atheists or girls/women in the boy scouts. They are a private organization...a point that seems lost on you and others. And if the homos, atheists, or girls/women want their own private organization that excludes heterosexual and/or Christian/theist males they are free to do so.

They don't have to be the big tent...pup tent will do just fine if that's what they want.

Well apparently, they do want homosexuals now.

Institutions change. At one time, the Boy Scouts had racially segregated troops.

[cleller]

Does Obama really think people should hold their boys out of Scouts because they don't want gays involved?

Seems logical that BSA would seek to keep out gay scout leaders. Look at the situation: you have a person who is sexually attracted to the gender he will be in close personal contact with. Additionally, these are young and naive members of that gender.

I will admit I am sexually attracted to females. Therefore, I would not feel it inappropriate to try to be a leader of Girl Scouts, etc. Is it out of line to expect the same of gays?

[Midtowner]

Seems logical that BSA would seek to keep out gay scout leaders. Look at the situation: you have a person who is sexually attracted to the gender he will be in close personal contact with. Additionally, these are young and naive members of that gender.

Let me ask you a question which should illustrate how misguided your question is.

Do you secretly desire to boink a 12-year old girl because you're heterosexual?

[olevetonahill]

Let me ask you a question which should illustrate how misguided your question is.

Do you secretly desire to boink a 12-year old girl because you're heterosexual?

Not a 12 year old But some of those 15 an 16s are HAWT.

[SicEmBaylor]

God I hated Boy Scouts. Nearly the only thing I remember is having my parents sell my popcorn and cutting every corner I could to get merit badges. That's the SicEm way.

I always thought the pledges and oaths were hokey, and I f'n hated the outdoors with a passion.

[okie52]

Well apparently, they do want homosexuals now.

Institutions change. At one time, the Boy Scouts had racially segregated troops.

Yeah, a mysterious change of position from just 7 months ago stating they didn't. Of course they have just passed the decision about gay membership to local troops...a position that was devised by a couple of Obama cronies that are on the board.

[okie52]

Okie, I'm just laughing at 'em, not dictating what they must do. Baden Baden Powell, the founder in question was a bit weird. He was almost certainly a closeted gay and sought to control his own urges by involving himself in any number of authoritarian movements and organizations. (He greatly admired the early Nazi party and wanted to found a British party on its model). His vision for the Boy Scouts included a direct linkage with the British military.

Heh...sorry if I misunderstood your post. I was in scouts for about a month and it didnt appeal to me but I never had a uniform or saw others wearing them (not that they didn't ).
One camp out....got demerits or some form of punishment for egging someone's tent and I was gone. Could have has homos among us then like every walk of life but in 63 that wasn't even in my frame of reference.

[StoopTroup]

God I hated Boy Scouts. Nearly the only thing I remember is having my parents sell my popcorn and cutting every corner I could to get merit badges. That's the SicEm way.

I always thought the pledges and oaths were hokey, and I f'n hated the outdoors with a passion.

Yet as you got older you finally got your Paintball Badge.

[cleller]

Let me ask you a question which should illustrate how misguided your question is.

Do you secretly desire to boink a 12-year old girl because you're heterosexual?

Using that type of logic, would you advocate opposite sex scout leaders? The fact remains that humans are prone to sexually interact with whichever sex they are attracted to. A small, but still considerable percentage will do it with those under the age of consent.

[StoopTroup]

I read a little about this today and nobody so far has mentioned that the move may be because of the loss of financial support from Companies who have Anti-Discrimination Clauses. Since the Boy Scouts have been put on the spot for so many cultural changes in our society they have tried to maintain the many rules and regulations but its become more and more difficult to continue to maintain the values of the original Founders.

The idea that this is Obama suddenly taking a shot at making them change is a bit paranoid but the changes in our Military Policies would seem to have much more to do with it all IMO.

[SicEmBaylor]

Yet as you got older you finally got your Paintball Badge.
Actually, Boy Scouts used to be opposed to paintballing and didn't allow their troops to participate in it.

Like I said, I hate the Boy Scouts. Part of the problem is that I'm too cynical to buy into their bull****.

[SicEmBaylor]

The idea that this is Obama suddenly taking a shot at making them change is a bit paranoid but the changes in our Military Policies would seem to have much more to do with it all IMO.

Uh, where do you suppose changes in those 'military policies' come from?

[SicEmBaylor]

However, having said all that, it would be a travesty to see the Boy Scouts forced to change and become something they are not. No organization should ever have rules thrust upon it by government. The Boy Scouts should be who the Boy Scouts want to be consistent with their own desires, wishes, rules, regulations, and tradition.

It's not my cup of tea, but some people really get off on that Boy Scout crap. If they enjoy that kind of thing then more power to them.

[Ton Loc]

I read a little about this today and nobody so far has mentioned that the move may be because of the loss of financial support from Companies who have Anti-Discrimination Clauses. Since the Boy Scouts have been put on the spot for so many cultural changes in our society they have tried to maintain the many rules and regulations but its become more and more difficult to continue to maintain the values of the original Founders.

The idea that this is Obama suddenly taking a shot at making them change is a bit paranoid but the changes in our Military Policies would seem to have much more to do with it all IMO.

Easier just to blame it on Obama. The Boy Scouts are going to have to choose between getting $$$ from those companies or sticking to their crazy ways. For years they've been losing their "values" for lesser reasons. $$$ always wins. Bunch of sell outs.

[Soonerjeepman]

Young boys dressed in para-military uniforms going camping in the woods with grown men wearing para-military uniforms. Under the authority of an organization founded by a man who preached cold showers, twice a day, to keep 'unmanly' thoughts from the minds of those young boys.

Oh, no, there's never been anything remotely homosexual about the Boy Scouts. Nothing. Never.

dude you are so clueless...

[SicEmBaylor]

dude you are so clueless...

Actually, I think he's right on.

There was a homoerotic element to the Hitler Youth as well.

[Soonerjeepman]

maybe that's the way it was 100 yrs ago in England...but I've been in and my son is earning his Eagle...none of that is even remotely what it's like now...or has been in my experience.

What's funny is the guys saying all this crap admittedly didn't like it...I will give ya credit for saying they shouldn't change if they don't want to.

[SicEmBaylor]

maybe that's the way it was 100 yrs ago in England...but I've been in and my son is earning his Eagle...none of that is even remotely what it's like now...or has been in my experience.

What's funny is the guys saying all this crap admittedly didn't like it...I will give ya credit for saying they shouldn't change if they don't want to.

Like I said, if that sort of thing floats your boat...

The biggest problem I have with scouting at this point in my life is the degree to which they expect and demand obedience to the national state. I find that sort of thing highly highly troubling. I find the idea of devoting one's self to the government to be very off-putting.

And, yes, I know it's about patriotism and not devotion to the state 'per se' but that distinction is not at all made clear (it wasn't in my experience). Allegiance to the country and not questioning authority were integral components of the scout's brand of patriotism.

If I ever have kids they'd be free to join scouts if the wanted to, of course, but I'd make it clear that patriotism is about upholding American principles of individual liberty and limited-government which often means opposing your own government and its laws.

[SicEmBaylor]

...and I'm not sure I'd like the idea of my kids reciting the pledge of allegiance. The 'under God' part doesn't bother me in the least -- it's the "indivisible" part that horrifies me. Not to mention the fact that it was written by a socialist to brainwash the American electorate into devoting itself to the government is an issue to me. That should bother more people but the fact that the pledge has become simply a means by which one shows their patriotism is really proof that the original intent of the pledge was a success judging by the fact that few people question it (at least for the right reason).

/rant

[Sooner5030]

not sure what all of the fuss is about. I went to one meeting decades ago and decided that they were all f-ing gay.

Not sure if they were homosexual though. Instead of joining the boy scouts I decided to chase young women, smoke pot, and get drunk rather than get some tender foot badge.

[Soonerjeepman]

guess I see the pledge as supporting our country which to me is yes, questioning the gov. This country is FOR THE PEOPLE. I personally think all the idiots in Washington need to be out. BOTH parties are just like each other, it's all a rouge to keep themselves in control.

I really haven't seen or believe there is some underscore conspiracy within scouts. Just kids enjoying nature and working hard, keeping goals.

Actually scouts to me has become almost TOO PC for my liking.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Does Obama really think people should hold their boys out of Scouts because they don't want gays involved?

Seems logical that BSA would seek to keep out gay scout leaders. Look at the situation: you have a person who is sexually attracted to the gender he will be in close personal contact with. Additionally, these are young and naive members of that gender.

I will admit I am sexually attracted to females. Therefore, I would not feel it inappropriate to try to be a leader of Girl Scouts, etc. Is it out of line to expect the same of gays?

Next thing you know they'll allow heterosexual men to coach women's basketball!

[lexsooner]

not sure what all of the fuss is about. I went to one meeting decades ago and decided that they were all f-ing gay.

Not sure if they were homosexual though. Instead of joining the boy scouts I decided to chase young women, smoke pot, and get drunk rather than get some tender foot badge.

Wait, why should the two be mutually exclusive? Why can't a kid be a scout and even an eagle scout and then smoke dope, get drunk, and chase tail? Didn't Bill Clinton do both?

[olevetonahill]

Next thing you know they'll allow heterosexual men to coach women's basketball!

OOOOOH Boobies Bouncing, Think I'd like that, Where I sign up?

[cleller]

Next thing you know they'll allow heterosexual men to coach women's basketball!

Sure, how about Brownies, Bluebirds, and feminine hygiene classes, too?

[diverdog]

I have been a little reluctant to respond to this thread because so much of this hits home to me.

As some of you know I am heavily involved in Scouting. There is probably not a position I have not held in Scouting. Currently I serve as our troops committee chair, pack training chair, district finance chair, key three committee and OA advisor. My oldest son just attained the rank of Eagle at the age of 14. On top of this I serve on Wood Badge and Powder Horn staffs. None of this means anything to folks who are not associated with scouting but those who are understand that my involvement is pretty deep.

I am going to try and give you my assessment on the events that are going on. But first I have to respond to a couple of erroneous post.

Soonerjeepman, you are totally off base about women in scouting. I have worked with a lot of women in scouting and they are fantastic and fill roles that are desperately needed in our units. One of my friends was single mom, she was abandoned with three boys and received no support from her ex-husband. She raised all three of them to be Eagle Scouts. She took each one of them to Philmont High Adventure Camp and did 125 miles of backpacking through northern New Mexico. She did this three times. Woman have always taken a central roll in Cub Scouts and are more than likely to be a Den Leader for younger boys. At the troop level our woman serve as Assistant Scoutmasters and Troop Committee Members. If I had a chance I would have made one of them a Scoutmaster. On the international level scouting is coed. The BSA also has coed units in Venturing and Explorers. It is only Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts that are exclusive to boys.

Sicem, nothing is demanded in scouts. Yes we teach the boys respect about our nation, the flag, the church and the military. However, they are also taught to think for themselves. Scouting is designed to teach boys leadership and self reliance. A properly run troop is run by the boys not the adults. It is their program and they should be allowed to make decisions on their own with the support of the adults. We do not force our kids to say the pledge or pray. What we do ask is that they are respectful.

The issue currently facing the BSA is one that has caught me off guard. I did not realize how big of deal it was until I had lunch with our District Executive. From what he has told me the phones have been burning off the hook. Both pro and con....but mostly con. Tonight I was cornered and told by two of my adult leaders that if the policy changes they will resign. Personally, I do not think it is that big of deal because I do not see our unit being over run by gays any time soon. An the truth of the matter is that we have already had gay kids pass through our door and make it to Eagle Scout. I am also scratching my head on why this has come up at this time. Just doesn't make sense to me.

What the BSA is trying to do by pushing this down to the Council level is a nightmare. It will do nothing but create confusion, in fighting and it will eventually destroy scouting. They have completely botched this decision and I will tell you guys that I think it has more to do with money than any social statement. I think they have been chastized by large institutional funders who have told them to change or else. Money is driving this policy change and that is sad.

If I were on the board of the BSA I would have dealt with this on a totally different level. I would state that no boy will be thrown out of unit based on his sexuality. At that age we should not care. Most units will never throw a boy out for being gay unless he really presses the issue. Quite frankly we do not care. As for the adults I would have a don't ask don't tell policy. As long as you are not in our face with sex then we do not care. I do not think this discussion belongs in scouts and I would hold the same hard line if some dude came in and openly said he was banging all his neighbors wives.

What I see in scouts is an organization where boys can learn to be boys and do stuff they could never do on their own. My oldest was shy and not a very good athlete. He is geek smart and sort of introverted. Over the past 3 years he has changed a lot. You put a 40 pound backpack on the kid and he will go 20 miles and not complain a bit and he will do it day after day. Last year he did Northern Tier out of Eli Minnesota and they canoed 125 miles in 9 days. He completed 5 mile portages with 80 pounds of gear on his back and earned the iron man award. The point is that I have seen a lot of kids change like this. We have helped them become great leaders, more self reliant and better for our community.

I am going to leave these stats for you to ponder:

What happens to a Scout? For every 100 boys who join Scouting, records indicate that:


RARELY will one be brought before the juvenile court system
2 will become Eagle Scouts
17 will become future Scout volunteers
12 will have their first contact with a church
1 will enter the clergy
5 will earn their church award
18 will develop a hobby that will last through their adult life
8 will enter a vocation that was learned through the merit badge system
1 will use his Scouting skills to save his own life
1 will use his Scouting skills to save the life of another person

Scouting's alumni record is equally impressive. A recent nation- wide survey of high schools revealed the following information:


85% of student council presidents were Scouts
89% of senior class presidents were Scouts
80% of junior class presidents were Scouts
75% of school publication editors were Scouts
71% of football captains were Scouts

Scouts also account for:


64% of Air Force Academy graduates
68% of West Point graduates
70% of Annapolis graduates
72% of Rhodes Scholars
85% of F.B.I. agents
26 of the first 29 astronauts

[olevetonahill]

Good Post DD. I was in Cub scouts for a short time, Just wasnt for me I guess. Ive never seen many scouts IF any go bad.
Yall keep up the Good work.

[Ton Loc]

Good Post DD. I was in Cub scouts for a short time, Just wasnt for me I guess. Ive never seen many scouts IF any go bad.
Yall keep up the Good work.

Diver's post makes me feel like a cynical bastard. Spot on.
I hope all their leaders are all that passionate.

[olevetonahill]

Diver's post makes me feel like a cynical bastard. Spot on.
I hope all their leaders are all that passionate.

DDs a Leftie but hes alright in spite of it.:excitement:

[SicEmBaylor]

OOOOOH Boobies Bouncing, Think I'd like that, Where I sign up?

I need to send you a Brittney Griner poster to oogle and oggle at.

[olevetonahill]

I need to send you a Brittney Griner poster to oogle and oggle at.

Bull Shat, keep that Dyke looking uglyassed bitch for your Room.

[BigTip]

I enjoyed my scouting experience. It taught me a lot.
I got my boys in to it, but it was a lot of work keeping them in. They didn't go as far in it as I did.
But I don't blame them. I was turned off by all the "cover your ***" type things we adult leaders had to do. They are so sensitive to child abusers and all that. They have to be of course, but it was not fun because of it. But Scouts is a very good thing.

On the gay issue, I am as conservative as anyone on this board, but maybe not about the gay issue. I think eventually history will look back at this intolerance of gays with the same sense of shame that society looks back at the intolerance of blacks. We should stop wasting energy fighting it and move on.

[BigTip]

I need to send you a Brittney Griner poster to oogle and oggle at.
He's a damn good b-ball player.

[SoonerInFortSmith]

...and I'm not sure I'd like the idea of my kids reciting the pledge of allegiance. The 'under God' part doesn't bother me in the least -- it's the "indivisible" part that horrifies me. Not to mention the fact that it was written by a socialist to brainwash the American electorate into devoting itself to the government is an issue to me. That should bother more people but the fact that the pledge has become simply a means by which one shows their patriotism is really proof that the original intent of the pledge was a success judging by the fact that few people question it (at least for the right reason).

/rant

I thought we decided the Civil War was over in that other thread a few weeks ago. ;)

[olevetonahill]

I thought we decided the Civil War was over in that other thread a few weeks ago. ;)

No No No, we jes takin a break.

[SicEmBaylor]

I thought we decided the Civil War was over in that other thread a few weeks ago. ;)
It's never over especially since there is hardly a political issue, relevant today, that is an issue because of the results of that war. The war is over but certainly not the much broader political ramifications and issues.

But I digress, this thread is about how normal people hate camping and how the Boy Scouts are full of...well...boy scouts.

[okie52]

It's never over especially since there is hardly a political issue, relevant today, that is an issue because of the results of that war. The war is over but certainly not the much broader political ramifications and issues.

But I digress, this thread is about how normal people hate camping and how the Boy Scouts are full of...well...boy scouts.

So are you ready for secession?

[SicEmBaylor]

On the gay issue, I am as conservative as anyone on this board, but maybe not about the gay issue. I think eventually history will look back at this intolerance of gays with the same sense of shame that society looks back at the intolerance of blacks. We should stop wasting energy fighting it and move on.

This is precisely what makes you a conservative. This is why both you and I may be the most conservative people on this board. Conservatism is about protecting the most fundamental of American principles -- individual liberty and limited-government. Any true conservative has to be conservative enough to support those principles even when they conflict with his or her own personal moral views because there is nothing more important than ensuring every American is treated equally under the law and every American has the same right to pursuit their own happiness.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQ7klqYE_4

[olevetonahill]

It's never over especially since there is hardly a political issue, relevant today, that is an issue because of the results of that war. The war is over but certainly not the much broader political ramifications and issues.

But I digress, this thread is about how normal people hate camping and how the Boy Scouts are full of...well...boy scouts.


Dont you camp out with yer Buddies when ya do the Paintball thing?

[SicEmBaylor]

Dont you camp out with yer Buddies when ya do the Paintball thing?

It's a necessary and unavoidable hardship. I camp at scenario events because I generally have to not because I enjoy it!

[BigTip]

This is precisely what makes you a conservative. This is why both you and I may be the most conservative people on this board. Conservatism is about protecting the most fundamental of American principles -- individual liberty and limited-government. Any true conservative has to be conservative enough to support those principles even when they conflict with his or her own personal moral views because there is nothing more important than ensuring every American is treated equally under the law and every American has the same right to pursuit their own happiness.


Exactly, and that is why my party, the Republicans, are screwing up. They say, "Government don't interfere with my pocket book, but DO interfere with who can marry who, or what drugs people can or can't take, or what a woman can do with her body."
I don't think you can have it both ways. Limit government in all parts of our lives, not just the economic part.

[diverdog]

DDs a Leftie but hes alright in spite of it.:excitement:

vet:

all kidding aside I think one problem in our society is that we do not teach self reliance, personal responsibility and having to do without. Can you think of any place where kids get this sort of information other than sports or the scouts?

[Blue]

Exactly, and that is why my party, the Republicans, are screwing up. They say, "Government don't interfere with my pocket book, but DO interfere with who can marry who, or what drugs people can or can't take, or what a woman can do with her body."
I don't think you can have it both ways. Limit government in all parts of our lives, not just the economic part.



Being a Christian trumps being a Republican for most conservatives. The GOP can rot in hell before I'll ever say homosexuality and abortion are "ok". The act is disgusting and perverse and any sort of tolerance toward it is an indictment on our society.

Have your gay boyscouts, have your gay marriage. I don't care. The govt doesn't legislate my morality. They are not who I look to to tell me what is good. But I see where this whole thing is headed. The govt. getting involved in church business. This fight hasn't even begun.

[SicEmBaylor]

Being a Christian trumps being a Republican for most conservatives. The GOP can rot in hell before I'll ever say homosexuality and abortion are "ok". The act is disgusting and perverse and any sort of tolerance toward it is an indictment on our society.

Have your gay boyscouts, have your gay marriage. I don't care. The govt doesn't legislate my morality. They are not who I look to to tell me what is good. But I see where this whole thing is headed. The govt. getting involved in church business. This fight hasn't even begun.
As far as Boy Scouts and churches go, I couldn't agree more. In fact, a business owner should be able to hire/fire someone simply because they are gay. They should be able to hire/fire someone simply because they are black/asian/white/hispanic/polish/irish/etc. as well. Now of course that is typically not very good business, so if their business fails as a result then that's their fault.

However, marriage is another issue. Marriage is a government institution. Government shouldn't have a damned thing to do with marriage but so long as they do then it should be available to every American.

If you get government completely out of the marriage business then individual churches would be able to decide for themselves if they are going to condone a homosexual union which would be best for everyone all around.

[Midtowner]

Yeah, a mysterious change of position from just 7 months ago stating they didn't. Of course they have just passed the decision about gay membership to local troops...a position that was devised by a couple of Obama cronies that are on the board.

Are you sure you're responding to my question? As a heterosexual male, do you want to have sex with 12 year old girls?

[Midtowner]

Using that type of logic, would you advocate opposite sex scout leaders? The fact remains that humans are prone to sexually interact with whichever sex they are attracted to. A small, but still considerable percentage will do it with those under the age of consent.

Okay, since I head a den mother in cub scouts, I'm damned lucky I didn't get molested?

Ignorance....prejudice....idiocy...

[Blue]

If you get government completely out of the marriage business then individual churches would be able to decide for themselves if they are going to condone a homosexual union which would be best for everyone all around.


They can issue a license to whomever they want. Who cares? The individual churches DO decide who they will marry. Problem comes when Midtowner and the boys file suit saying we are being discriminatory bigots bc we're doing what our religion says. They take away tax benefits. So our tithes getted double taxed. Or they shut our doors bc we refuse to bow to PC America. But if that happens, it happens. We will deal. But to say we live in a free country these days is absolutely laughable.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I can only say good things about my time in the Boy Scouts. Eagle Scout class of 1976. Lots of good survival knowledge, camping knowledge and leadership. I am also a God and Country award member. It is a private organization that will do as it see fits. If it excludes homos, i am good, if they choose to allow homos, that is good as well. The Scouts are a great organization.

[sappstuf]

I have been a little reluctant to respond to this thread because so much of this hits home to me.

As some of you know I am heavily involved in Scouting. There is probably not a position I have not held in Scouting. Currently I serve as our troops committee chair, pack training chair, district finance chair, key three committee and OA advisor. My oldest son just attained the rank of Eagle at the age of 14. On top of this I serve on Wood Badge and Powder Horn staffs. None of this means anything to folks who are not associated with scouting but those who are understand that my involvement is pretty deep.

I am going to try and give you my assessment on the events that are going on. But first I have to respond to a couple of erroneous post.

Soonerjeepman, you are totally off base about women in scouting. I have worked with a lot of women in scouting and they are fantastic and fill roles that are desperately needed in our units. One of my friends was single mom, she was abandoned with three boys and received no support from her ex-husband. She raised all three of them to be Eagle Scouts. She took each one of them to Philmont High Adventure Camp and did 125 miles of backpacking through northern New Mexico. She did this three times. Woman have always taken a central roll in Cub Scouts and are more than likely to be a Den Leader for younger boys. At the troop level our woman serve as Assistant Scoutmasters and Troop Committee Members. If I had a chance I would have made one of them a Scoutmaster. On the international level scouting is coed. The BSA also has coed units in Venturing and Explorers. It is only Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts that are exclusive to boys.

Sicem, nothing is demanded in scouts. Yes we teach the boys respect about our nation, the flag, the church and the military. However, they are also taught to think for themselves. Scouting is designed to teach boys leadership and self reliance. A properly run troop is run by the boys not the adults. It is their program and they should be allowed to make decisions on their own with the support of the adults. We do not force our kids to say the pledge or pray. What we do ask is that they are respectful.

The issue currently facing the BSA is one that has caught me off guard. I did not realize how big of deal it was until I had lunch with our District Executive. From what he has told me the phones have been burning off the hook. Both pro and con....but mostly con. Tonight I was cornered and told by two of my adult leaders that if the policy changes they will resign. Personally, I do not think it is that big of deal because I do not see our unit being over run by gays any time soon. An the truth of the matter is that we have already had gay kids pass through our door and make it to Eagle Scout. I am also scratching my head on why this has come up at this time. Just doesn't make sense to me.

What the BSA is trying to do by pushing this down to the Council level is a nightmare. It will do nothing but create confusion, in fighting and it will eventually destroy scouting. They have completely botched this decision and I will tell you guys that I think it has more to do with money than any social statement. I think they have been chastized by large institutional funders who have told them to change or else. Money is driving this policy change and that is sad.

If I were on the board of the BSA I would have dealt with this on a totally different level. I would state that no boy will be thrown out of unit based on his sexuality. At that age we should not care. Most units will never throw a boy out for being gay unless he really presses the issue. Quite frankly we do not care. As for the adults I would have a don't ask don't tell policy. As long as you are not in our face with sex then we do not care. I do not think this discussion belongs in scouts and I would hold the same hard line if some dude came in and openly said he was banging all his neighbors wives.

What I see in scouts is an organization where boys can learn to be boys and do stuff they could never do on their own. My oldest was shy and not a very good athlete. He is geek smart and sort of introverted. Over the past 3 years he has changed a lot. You put a 40 pound backpack on the kid and he will go 20 miles and not complain a bit and he will do it day after day. Last year he did Northern Tier out of Eli Minnesota and they canoed 125 miles in 9 days. He completed 5 mile portages with 80 pounds of gear on his back and earned the iron man award. The point is that I have seen a lot of kids change like this. We have helped them become great leaders, more self reliant and better for our community.

I am going to leave these stats for you to ponder:

What happens to a Scout? For every 100 boys who join Scouting, records indicate that:


RARELY will one be brought before the juvenile court system
2 will become Eagle Scouts
17 will become future Scout volunteers
12 will have their first contact with a church
1 will enter the clergy
5 will earn their church award
18 will develop a hobby that will last through their adult life
8 will enter a vocation that was learned through the merit badge system
1 will use his Scouting skills to save his own life
1 will use his Scouting skills to save the life of another person

Scouting's alumni record is equally impressive. A recent nation- wide survey of high schools revealed the following information:


85% of student council presidents were Scouts
89% of senior class presidents were Scouts
80% of junior class presidents were Scouts
75% of school publication editors were Scouts
71% of football captains were Scouts

Scouts also account for:


64% of Air Force Academy graduates
68% of West Point graduates
70% of Annapolis graduates
72% of Rhodes Scholars
85% of F.B.I. agents
26 of the first 29 astronauts


Nice post DD.

Could you please explain if your son really had to do all of those miles or if the old man just kept getting lost.... ;)

[pphilfran]

I have been a little reluctant to respond to this thread because so much of this hits home to me.

As some of you know I am heavily involved in Scouting. There is probably not a position I have not held in Scouting. Currently I serve as our troops committee chair, pack training chair, district finance chair, key three committee and OA advisor. My oldest son just attained the rank of Eagle at the age of 14. On top of this I serve on Wood Badge and Powder Horn staffs. None of this means anything to folks who are not associated with scouting but those who are understand that my involvement is pretty deep.

I am going to try and give you my assessment on the events that are going on. But first I have to respond to a couple of erroneous post.

Soonerjeepman, you are totally off base about women in scouting. I have worked with a lot of women in scouting and they are fantastic and fill roles that are desperately needed in our units. One of my friends was single mom, she was abandoned with three boys and received no support from her ex-husband. She raised all three of them to be Eagle Scouts. She took each one of them to Philmont High Adventure Camp and did 125 miles of backpacking through northern New Mexico. She did this three times. Woman have always taken a central roll in Cub Scouts and are more than likely to be a Den Leader for younger boys. At the troop level our woman serve as Assistant Scoutmasters and Troop Committee Members. If I had a chance I would have made one of them a Scoutmaster. On the international level scouting is coed. The BSA also has coed units in Venturing and Explorers. It is only Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts that are exclusive to boys.

Sicem, nothing is demanded in scouts. Yes we teach the boys respect about our nation, the flag, the church and the military. However, they are also taught to think for themselves. Scouting is designed to teach boys leadership and self reliance. A properly run troop is run by the boys not the adults. It is their program and they should be allowed to make decisions on their own with the support of the adults. We do not force our kids to say the pledge or pray. What we do ask is that they are respectful.

The issue currently facing the BSA is one that has caught me off guard. I did not realize how big of deal it was until I had lunch with our District Executive. From what he has told me the phones have been burning off the hook. Both pro and con....but mostly con. Tonight I was cornered and told by two of my adult leaders that if the policy changes they will resign. Personally, I do not think it is that big of deal because I do not see our unit being over run by gays any time soon. An the truth of the matter is that we have already had gay kids pass through our door and make it to Eagle Scout. I am also scratching my head on why this has come up at this time. Just doesn't make sense to me.

What the BSA is trying to do by pushing this down to the Council level is a nightmare. It will do nothing but create confusion, in fighting and it will eventually destroy scouting. They have completely botched this decision and I will tell you guys that I think it has more to do with money than any social statement. I think they have been chastized by large institutional funders who have told them to change or else. Money is driving this policy change and that is sad.

If I were on the board of the BSA I would have dealt with this on a totally different level. I would state that no boy will be thrown out of unit based on his sexuality. At that age we should not care. Most units will never throw a boy out for being gay unless he really presses the issue. Quite frankly we do not care. As for the adults I would have a don't ask don't tell policy. As long as you are not in our face with sex then we do not care. I do not think this discussion belongs in scouts and I would hold the same hard line if some dude came in and openly said he was banging all his neighbors wives.

What I see in scouts is an organization where boys can learn to be boys and do stuff they could never do on their own. My oldest was shy and not a very good athlete. He is geek smart and sort of introverted. Over the past 3 years he has changed a lot. You put a 40 pound backpack on the kid and he will go 20 miles and not complain a bit and he will do it day after day. Last year he did Northern Tier out of Eli Minnesota and they canoed 125 miles in 9 days. He completed 5 mile portages with 80 pounds of gear on his back and earned the iron man award. The point is that I have seen a lot of kids change like this. We have helped them become great leaders, more self reliant and better for our community.

I am going to leave these stats for you to ponder:

What happens to a Scout? For every 100 boys who join Scouting, records indicate that:


RARELY will one be brought before the juvenile court system
2 will become Eagle Scouts
17 will become future Scout volunteers
12 will have their first contact with a church
1 will enter the clergy
5 will earn their church award
18 will develop a hobby that will last through their adult life
8 will enter a vocation that was learned through the merit badge system
1 will use his Scouting skills to save his own life
1 will use his Scouting skills to save the life of another person

Scouting's alumni record is equally impressive. A recent nation- wide survey of high schools revealed the following information:


85% of student council presidents were Scouts
89% of senior class presidents were Scouts
80% of junior class presidents were Scouts
75% of school publication editors were Scouts
71% of football captains were Scouts

Scouts also account for:


64% of Air Force Academy graduates
68% of West Point graduates
70% of Annapolis graduates
72% of Rhodes Scholars
85% of F.B.I. agents
26 of the first 29 astronauts


DD comes through!

[pphilfran]

It's never over especially since there is hardly a political issue, relevant today, that is an issue because of the results of that war. The war is over but certainly not the much broader political ramifications and issues.

But I digress, this thread is about how normal people hate camping and how the Boy Scouts are full of...well...boy scouts.

Since I like camping that makes me abnormal?

Plenty of reasons to call me abnormal but camping isn't one of them...

[diverdog]

Nice post DD.

Could you please explain if your son really had to do all of those miles or if the old man just kept getting lost.... ;)

Sapp,

I did not get to go with him to Ely. They only allowed 3 adults so we sent our most capable leaders. One of them use to be a special forces medic, now a nurse practioner. So it was a good group. Now on the backpacking front well ahhhh...first rule of navigation, trust your compass. Second rule of navigation....see first rule. Guess who thought he was smarter than a compass? :)

[SicEmBaylor]

Since I like camping that makes me abnormal?

Plenty of reasons to call me abnormal but camping isn't one of them...

I think any sensible person would spend their time in a nice home or hotel properly heated/cooled with plumbing and electricity, if they had that option, over a tent in the middle of nowhere.

[diverdog]

I think any sensible person would spend their time in a nice home or hotel properly heated/cooled with plumbing and electricity, if they had that option, over a tent in the middle of nowhere.

Call me a freak because I love living in a tent.

[pphilfran]

So now I am abnormal and nonsensical...

[sappstuf]

So now I am abnormal and nonsensical...

I'm thinking of a counter-argument.... Thinking....

[pphilfran]

I'm thinking of a counter-argument.... Thinking....

Hey!

[SicEmBaylor]

Hey!

You know, for some odd reason, I always get the two of you confused with one another.

[SicEmBaylor]

Call me a freak because I love living in a tent.

Just a rough estimate, but I would say 75-80% of the guys that play scenario paintball are former military. The XO of my scenario unit is Marine recon who did tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of those guys like the outdoors/camping **** but a LOT of them absolutely hate camping. They got totally burned out and sick of it in the military, so they try to get hotel rooms whenever they can.

I thought all of them would be real gun-ho about roughing it, but those guys f'n hate roughing it.

[okie52]

Are you sure you're responding to my question? As a heterosexual male, do you want to have sex with 12 year old girls?

There was no question that you posed to me. You are getting me confused with someone else to whom you are advocating gay scout masters.

[okie52]

Call me a freak because I love living in a tent.

I know, I know.....a big tent, right?

[pphilfran]

You know, for some odd reason, I always get the two of you confused with one another.

sap is my twin brother

[Midtowner]

Using that type of logic, would you advocate opposite sex scout leaders? The fact remains that humans are prone to sexually interact with whichever sex they are attracted to. A small, but still considerable percentage will do it with those under the age of consent.

We have opposite sex scout leaders in cub scouts. I don't recall any problems with that. Reading over the application packet to become a scout leader, it doesn't state that females are prohibited from applying, so I don't even know if that's a thing.

[cleller]

We have opposite sex scout leaders in cub scouts. I don't recall any problems with that. Reading over the application packet to become a scout leader, it doesn't state that females are prohibited from applying, so I don't even know if that's a thing.

OK, I understand. You're fine with Liberace and Freddie Mercury hauling your little boys out in the woods, or Joe Namath and Bobby Petrino your daughters.
I still support the right of an organization to run their program as they see fit without a lot of arm twisting by the government and limber-backed political correctness league.

[Midtowner]

OK, I understand. You're fine with Liberace and Freddie Mercury hauling your little boys out in the woods, or Joe Namath and Bobby Petrino your daughters.
I still support the right of an organization to run their program as they see fit without a lot of arm twisting by the government and limber-backed political correctness league.

Again, since you are such an avid heterosexual, do you have a desire to screw 12 year old girls?

[okie52]

Again, since you are such an avid heterosexual, do you have a desire to screw 12 year old girls?

You seem to have that on your mind a lot.,.things not working for you with he ladies?

[olevetonahill]

Again, since you are such an avid heterosexual, do you have a desire to screw 12 year old girls?

3rd time you mentioned little 12 year old Girls. Is there a Problem you need to discuss?

[cleller]

Again, since you are such an avid heterosexual, do you have a desire to screw 12 year old girls?

No, I don't. But can you say that for the entire male population? Why would gay males be different?

If they cannot deny gays, would they be able to say no to Neo-Nazis? Hardcore goths? Satanists? Cross dressers? Folks obsessed with tattoos and piercings?

If your reply is that all of those people engage in lifestyle choices that others find out of line with community standards or tolerance, as long as they denied it publicly, or claimed it was without prejudice toward there fellow man, they're in the same boat with gays.

Again, BSA should be free to operate without pressure from without. Yes, I know the Pres is an honorary member of their board.

Oh yeah, you didn't answer, would you be OK with Liberace and Freddie Mercury taking your boys out in the woods? Namath and Petrino your teen aged daughters?

[olevetonahill]

You seem to have that on your mind a lot.,.things not working for you with he ladies?

Dint see yer post before I responded. I think we can see theres something he needs to talk to some one about.

[Midtowner]

No, I don't. But can you say that for the entire male population? Why would gay males be different?

Nope, but there are plenty of folks you think were straight who still molest children. All of the research out there has concluded that there is no correlation between homosexuality and child molestation, and there's plenty of research.


If they cannot deny gays, would they be able to say no to Neo-Nazis? Hardcore goths? Satanists? Cross dressers? Folks obsessed with tattoos and piercings?

That's up to them.


Again, BSA should be free to operate without pressure from without. Yes, I know the Pres is an honorary member of their board.

Freedom of association does not mean freedom from consequences of our choices. If folks find the BSA's actions to be offensive, they are perfectly free to stop patronizing them. The announcement of various large corporate sponsors withdrawing their funding from the BSA over this choice is a reasonable consequence of the BSA's choice to engage in bigotry.

[Midtowner]

3rd time you mentioned little 12 year old Girls. Is there a Problem you need to discuss?

Just the fatal flaw in the premise that sexual orientation is determinate of whether someone is a child molester.

[cleller]

Just the fatal flaw in the premise that sexual orientation is determinate of whether someone is a child molester.

Come on, you never answered the question about Liberace/Mercury taking your little boys or Namath/Petrino taking your teen aged daughters out in the big lonely woods.

[KantoSooner]

maybe that's the way it was 100 yrs ago in England...but I've been in and my son is earning his Eagle...none of that is even remotely what it's like now...or has been in my experience.

What's funny is the guys saying all this crap admittedly didn't like it...I will give ya credit for saying they shouldn't change if they don't want to.

I was a scout for something like 6 years. Cubs, Weblos, finally BSA. Our Scout Master was a piece of work. He liked to have us stand at parade rest (which was better than 'Brace') while he roamed up and down our formation telling us about his 31 days in a life raft durirng WWII and smacking items of your uniform that didn't meet muster with his little stick. It was so much fun that I dropped out the year after he arrived.

[Midtowner]

Come on, you never answered the Liberace/Mercury-Namath/Petrino question.

Since none of those folks were child molesters, sure. If nothing for the hilarious mental image of Liberace or Mercury attempting to rough it in the woods with a bunch of kids.

Do you have any objection to the fact that many female gym teachers are homosexual and teach little girls?

[cleller]

Thank you Mr Obama, I've always been VERY interested in Scouting.

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/images_zps36564e5a.jpg

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/Favimcom-14711_zps8de5790a.jpg

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/4801173-portrait-of-skinhead-girl-in-black-clothes-and-false-mustache-on-her-face_zpsfcbb229c.jpg

[olevetonahill]

I was a scout for something like 6 years. Cubs, Weblos, finally BSA. Our Scout Master was a piece of work. He liked to have us stand at parade rest (which was better than 'Brace') while he roamed up and down our formation telling us about his 31 days in a life raft durirng WWII and smacking items of your uniform that didn't meet muster with his little stick. It was so much fun that I dropped out the year after he arrived.

Kanto, Come on Bro, Yer condemning the entire organization over the actions of ONE arsehole.
If you were in for 6 years and only quit a year after this dude showed, You must have liked it a bit.

[Midtowner]

It's quite possible that some of the above pictured folks might fail to qualify for the Scouts under tests other than sexual orientation. I mean, they have to pass a background check and actually want to join and such. Take local politician State Senator Al McAffrey. I've met the guy before and would have no objection to him being involved in scouting.

http://www.almcaffrey.com/

[cleller]

Since none of those folks were child molesters, sure. If nothing for the hilarious mental image of Liberace or Mercury attempting to rough it in the woods with a bunch of kids.

Do you have any objection to the fact that many female gym teachers are homosexual and teach little girls?

The point is that I would not want any young male relative to go out supervised by Liberace or Mercury. I would not want Joe Namath or Bobby Petrino out somewhere with my daughter. But if you are fine with that, good luck to your kids. I'd feel sorry for them that a parent were not more vigilant toward their welfare.
If you were a parent, you might understand better.

So "many female gym teachers are homosexual"? Now you are trying stereotype female gym teachers? What was the term you used for that type of thinking? Ignorance...prejudice...idiocy.

At any rate, I could tolerate that. My main concern would be toward a gay male with extended exposures to young males. From experience we all know that is a situation with a history of abuse potential. You can deny it, but it has occurred with striking regularity.

[pphilfran]

It's quite possible that some of the above pictured folks might fail to qualify for the Scouts under tests other than sexual orientation. I mean, they have to pass a background check and actually want to join and such. Take local politician State Senator Al McAffrey. I've met the guy before and would have no objection to him being involved in scouting.

http://www.almcaffrey.com/

But does he know how to tie a sheep shank knot?

[Midtowner]

So "many female gym teachers are homosexual"? Now you are trying stereotype female gym teachers? What was the term you used for that type of thinking? Ignorance...prejudice...idiocy.

Not just gym teachers, but all kinds of teachers. My high school algebra teacher was a very lesibian and very out of the closet lady. Even at a Catholic High School, no one seemed concerned that she might prey on young women.


At any rate, I could tolerate that. My main concern would be toward a gay male with extended exposures to young males. From experience we all know that is a situation with a history of abuse potential. You can deny it, but it has occurred with striking regularity.

I deal quite a bit with psychological professionals in this area. Obviously in child custody matters, fathers are very often accused of being child molesters. I've worked extensively with a local PhD whose practice specializes in the treatment and identification of child molesters. I can tell you that being gay or straight has nothing to do with whether one is a sexual predator. That's a whole separate ball game and set of stimuli given in the tests they administer.

If you were to categorize Jerry Sandusky as only being homosexually oriented, you'd be making a mistake.

[olevetonahill]

The point is that I would not want any young male relative to go out supervised by Liberace or Mercury. I would not want Joe Namath or Bobby Petrino out somewhere with my daughter. But if you are fine with that, good luck to your kids. I'd feel sorry for them that a parent were not more vigilant toward their welfare.
If you were a parent, you might understand better.

So "many female gym teachers are homosexual"? Now you are trying stereotype female gym teachers? What was the term you used for that type of thinking? Ignorance...prejudice...idiocy.

At any rate, I could tolerate that. My main concern would be toward a gay male with extended exposures to young males. From experience we all know that is a situation with a history of abuse potential. You can deny it, but it has occurred with striking regularity.

From matlocks posts Im guessin he would be more worried about His DOG than any kids he may have.

[diverdog]

I was a scout for something like 6 years. Cubs, Weblos, finally BSA. Our Scout Master was a piece of work. He liked to have us stand at parade rest (which was better than 'Brace') while he roamed up and down our formation telling us about his 31 days in a life raft durirng WWII and smacking items of your uniform that didn't meet muster with his little stick. It was so much fun that I dropped out the year after he arrived.

Kanto:

I am sorry you ran into such a dickhead. The SM has no idea how to run a troop. It is suppose to be boy lead....100% of the time. If you have a uniform inspection then it is done by the boys. His job is to council, watch for safety and stay the hell out of the way. If he served under me as a committee chair he would have changed or been fired.

[diverdog]

I know, I know.....a big tent, right?

I got me one of these:

http://www.junglehammock.com/store/product.php?productid=44&cat=0&page=1&featured

[sappstuf]

Not just gym teachers, but all kinds of teachers. My high school algebra teacher was a very lesibian and very out of the closet lady. Even at a Catholic High School, no one seemed concerned that she might prey on young women.



I deal quite a bit with psychological professionals in this area. Obviously in child custody matters, fathers are very often accused of being child molesters. I've worked extensively with a local PhD whose practice specializes in the treatment and identification of child molesters. I can tell you that being gay or straight has nothing to do with whether one is a sexual predator. That's a whole separate ball game and set of stimuli given in the tests they administer.

If you were to categorize Jerry Sandusky as only being homosexually oriented, you'd be making a mistake.

Can you please describe the differences between being lesbian and "very lesbian".

TIA

[olevetonahill]

Can you please describe the differences between being lesbian and "very lesbian".

TIA

He said Lesibian, Im still googling that to find out what a Lesibian is.

[olevetonahill]

I got me one of these:

http://www.junglehammock.com/store/product.php?productid=44&cat=0&page=1&featured

I have one of these every morning.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSeEc29wRGS4CPa0R9Mdx0b8-heId1I-KOVxfnlhCNd5k4yqbCu

[yermom]

The point is that I would not want any young male relative to go out supervised by Liberace or Mercury. I would not want Joe Namath or Bobby Petrino out somewhere with my daughter. But if you are fine with that, good luck to your kids. I'd feel sorry for them that a parent were not more vigilant toward their welfare.
If you were a parent, you might understand better.

So "many female gym teachers are homosexual"? Now you are trying stereotype female gym teachers? What was the term you used for that type of thinking? Ignorance...prejudice...idiocy.

At any rate, I could tolerate that. My main concern would be toward a gay male with extended exposures to young males. From experience we all know that is a situation with a history of abuse potential. You can deny it, but it has occurred with striking regularity.

what history is this? how does it compare with Catholic priests? would you want your young boys in the woods with them for extended periods of time?

[Soonerjeepman]

what history is this? how does it compare with Catholic priests? would you want your young boys in the woods with them for extended periods of time?

for the record there are a larger number of protestant preachers that have issues more than Catholic priest.

[Soonerjeepman]

DD, I understand your stance on women. The troop my son belongs to has several moms very involved as well. There are always a few women who go to Bartle every year. I totally understand the co-ed thing, I went to Philmont with an Explorers post in HS, Co-ed, and 2 summers ago with my son. I probably came off a little too harsh on women in scouting. I do appreciate your post on the rest of scouting. This thread needed your perspective. It's easy to drag down scouting if #1 you had a bad experience like some have said..#2 ya never really got into it or liked it.

Mid - We (along with several others on here) have a philosophical difference on homosexuality, which then obviously effects how we view this issue. I have yet to see ANY scientific evidence that homosexuality is NATURAL. I am not saying a person says, hey I want to be gay...but there is NO DNA evidence or such to say it's a "gene". Yes there are always "freak" things in nature..maybe that's it. Therefor I don't see homosexuality in the same light as race, sex, etc. I also understand that being gay doesn't mean you'll prey on kids but I do not want that "taught" as a normal excepted lifestyle. So sue me...or call me a bigot, prejudice. or whatever..I really don't care but those are not correct. FWIW, I have several family members that are gay...doesn't change my stance towards it. Just because society says its "normal" doesn't make it so.

[cleller]

I can tell you that being gay or straight has nothing to do with whether one is a sexual predator. That's a whole separate ball game and set of stimuli given in the tests they administer.

If you were to categorize Jerry Sandusky as only being homosexually oriented, you'd be making a mistake.

Which would be more likely to be a sexual predator of boys: homosexual male, or heterosexual male?

BSA is only trying to minimize the chance of abuse. They don't have the ability to conduct an in depth psych exam of every leader. Eliminating those that have the most basic characteristic may not always be fair, but it is more effective than doing nothing.

[yermom]

i'm not sure if you can read or not, but i'll repeat what Mid said.

pedos that molest boys don't always identify as gay. they have wives, etc...

[sooner_born_1960]

I don't really care how he identifies, if a man diddles a boy, he's homosexual, period. He is also a pedophile.

[cleller]

what history is this? how does it compare with Catholic priests? would you want your young boys in the woods with them for extended periods of time?

Don't know what you mean by history. Just pointing out that its unfair to label teachers. Its also a different situation with a gym teacher in a school than a troop leader on extended outings.

From what I know about the priests, I'd prefer to restrict outings to priests I was familiar with, same with scout leaders. With boys in particular, I'd rather a homosexual male not be involved. I think Americans should still be free to feel this way.

[cleller]

i'm not sure if you can read or not, but i'll repeat what Mid said.

pedos that molest boys don't always identify as gay. they have wives, etc...

If that's toward me, we're even, as I don't know if you can read either. I never did contradict the point, just asked which would be more likely to offend.

[Midtowner]

Which would be more likely to be a sexual predator of boys: homosexual male, or heterosexual male?

Child molesters don't tend to have as much of a sexual preference. I mean, excluding gays because they might be child molesters would be like excluding blacks because they might be criminals. It's arbitrary. I mean go back to my question--since you are a heterosexual male, are you more likely to want to rape a child?


BSA is only trying to minimize the chance of abuse. They don't have the ability to conduct an in depth psych exam of every leader. Eliminating those that have the most basic characteristic may not always be fair, but it is more effective than doing nothing.

I don't think that's what BSA is trying to do.

[C&CDean]

Personally, IDGAS.

I joined the Cub Scouts and at the first Den meeting I got caught stealing some Girl Scout cookies and a little cash from the closet (the mom was a Den mother and a Girl Scout leader). Kicked my *** straight to the curb. Never earned a merit badge of any kind, and was pissed when my little brother became a Webelo and got to wear the cool wolf neck tie thingy.

Later on, I kinda learned that most of the kids who stuck with scouts were pretty nerdy/weird/strange mofos. A couple of my kids did the scout thing, but the rest just did sports and ****. If the scouts went away I couldn't care less.

[C&CDean]

Now if this thread is about pedo/homos then I still ain't got a dog in the fight. However, I don't really get grown-assed men dressing up in faggy shorts and knee socks and crap. They might not BE pedo/homos, but they damn sure look it.

[8timechamps]

I was a Boy Scout. I'm not going to lie, it was considered a "nerdy" thing to do. So, myself and a few of my buddies did everything possible to not be seen wearing the uniform. Looking back, that was complete bull**** on my part. Anyway, we loved camping, and that was a means to an end. The older I got, the more I realized just how much scouting taught me. Some of my best childhood memories are from scouting.

I tried to get my boys into it, but apparently there is still some stupid stigma attached to it. Anyway, every year we went to summer camp (Camp Williams in OK), and there was a gay scout leader on staff. Of course, back then, he wasn't "openly" gay...but he was definitely gay. The only difference is that it wasn't mentioned. Don't ask, don't tell, Boy Scout style. And you know what, I didn't give two ****s about it. I was far more interested in swimming, shooting at the rifle range and building fires. Nobody gave a shat that the dude was gay.

The only issue I have is that the BSA is a private organization. If they don't want to allow homosexuals, fine, don't allow them. If the homosexuals are pissed, then go start the Gay Boy Scouts of America. They are certainly free to do so.

[Soonerjeepman]

Personally, IDGAS.



Later on, I kinda learned that most of the kids who stuck with scouts were pretty nerdy/weird/strange mofos. A couple of my kids did the scout thing, but the rest just did sports and ****. If the scouts went away I couldn't care less.

nope...in our troop we have a varsity soccer, basketball, baseball (my son) players all in 6A schools, along with track, cross country. Yes, it's been hard for my son to finish his Eagle, work, baseball...but he's doing it. I'm very proud of him. He loves snow boarding, shooting, four wheelin (jeep), hiking, baseball...pretty well rounded guy.

[cleller]

The only issue I have is that the BSA is a private organization. If they don't want to allow homosexuals, fine, don't allow them. If the homosexuals are pissed, then go start the Gay Boy Scouts of America. They are certainly free to do so.

There's a novel idea. Unfortunately some folks feel its their place to exert pressure on them to conform to what THEY think is best. Kinda like the gangster muscling in on the businessman. "Nice organization you got here, hate to see anything happen to it."

[SicEmBaylor]

for the record there are a larger number of protestant preachers that have issues more than Catholic priest.
Evidently not on the scale of the Catholics. Plus, there isn't a huge world-wide institutional cover up of those acts like the Catholics.

Also, protestants don't have a history spanning well over 5 centuries of using torture, burning, and other forms of execution as official policy to enforce church doctrine and anyone who dared think differently.

The Catholic Church is an utterly despicable organization.

[SicEmBaylor]

Child molesters don't tend to have as much of a sexual preference. I mean, excluding gays because they might be child molesters would be like excluding blacks because they might be criminals. It's arbitrary. I mean go back to my question--since you are a heterosexual male, are you more likely to want to rape a child?



I don't think that's what BSA is trying to do.
To answer your question mid, I don't think a lot of those who are concerned over this issue draw a parallel between a heterosexual wanting to sleep with a 12 year old and a homosexual wanting to sleep with a 12 year old. The reason for this is that they view homosexuality as a severe form of sexual perversion and anyone capable of that level of sexual perversion is more likely to sleep with a 12 year old.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but I believe that's how the issue is viewed.

[diverdog]

nope...in our troop we have a varsity soccer, basketball, baseball (my son) players all in 6A schools, along with track, cross country. Yes, it's been hard for my son to finish his Eagle, work, baseball...but he's doing it. I'm very proud of him. He loves snow boarding, shooting, four wheelin (jeep), hiking, baseball...pretty well rounded guy.

This is what my boys will be doing this summer:

zrVVvFOJ7Jg

[olevetonahill]

This is what my boys will be doing this summer:

zrVVvFOJ7Jg

Good on em Bro. Glad they doing THAT than doing THIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AIJEUuRXds

[BigTip]

Later on, I kinda learned that most of the kids who stuck with scouts were pretty nerdy/weird/strange mofos. A couple of my kids did the scout thing, but the rest just did sports and ****. If the scouts went away I couldn't care less.

I think that is just a stereotype that is not true. One of the guys that was in my Eagle court was the star of our high school football team. I played on the basketball team. Another guy that got Eagle with me was a doper hippie guy.
The same cross section was in my son's troop too. For sure some nerds, but also some "popular" type kids too. Just like the makeup of a high school. A mixture.

[Blue]

Don't mind Dean. He's the coolest mofo to ever walk the earth. Heh.

[Midtowner]

Also, protestants don't have a history spanning well over 5 centuries of using torture, burning, and other forms of execution as official policy to enforce church doctrine and anyone who dared think differently.

I recall Calvin once had a teenager put to death for defying his parents and did numerous other extreme things. There were the Salem witch trials, etc. Just about every religion has a checkered past when it comes to human rights.

[C&CDean]

Blue's been drinkin' again...

And he's right.

[Soonerjeepman]

This is what my boys will be doing this summer:

zrVVvFOJ7Jg

nice...looks like a nerdy thing to me! ;-)

[diverdog]

nice...looks like a nerdy thing to me! ;-)

It is expensive.

Are you seeing any fallout before a decision is made. Several of my leaders are going to quit if they make a change.

[Soonerjeepman]

prob not with my son's troop...I'm a semi leader..lol I was the SM for summer camp 2 yrs ago. Our SM has been with the troop for about 10 yrs. His last boy is a Sr and got his Eagle. Thinkin he's about done...he loves it and goes on the monthly campouts even thou his boys are done....so who knows. My son will age out next Aug and has drastically dropped off over the last few months. He'll be a Sr next yr. The troop uses my flatbed trailer and van for haulin stuff, so as long as I'm around I'll do that.

I don't see a big change with our troop but who knows.

I didn't click on the vid yet..where is jamboree at?

[diverdog]

prob not with my son's troop...I'm a semi leader..lol I was the SM for summer camp 2 yrs ago. Our SM has been with the troop for about 10 yrs. His last boy is a Sr and got his Eagle. Thinkin he's about done...he loves it and goes on the monthly campouts even thou his boys are done....so who knows. My son will age out next Aug and has drastically dropped off over the last few months. He'll be a Sr next yr. The troop uses my flatbed trailer and van for haulin stuff, so as long as I'm around I'll do that.

I don't see a big change with our troop but who knows.

I didn't click on the vid yet..where is jamboree at?

Jambo is in WV at the new BSA High Adventure Camp Bechtel Summit. They are putting $300 million into the place.

[okie52]

The Boy Scouts: Time for AT&T, Other Companies to Stop Funding Gay-Bashing
Posted: 10/08/2012 10:10 am


What the Boy Scouts of America did last week was among the most grotesque examples of its anti-gay policy to date. Ryan Andresen, a California high school senior, was denied his Eagle Scout award after completing all the requirements, including his final project of building a "tolerance wall" to fight bullying, which he'd experienced as a gay teen. He'd been in the BSA long before he knew he was gay, from the age of six. Like many young people, he came to realize his sexual orientation as a teen. And his Scoutmaster allegedly decided that now, just before earning the BSA's highest award, it was time to dump him simply because he is gay.

And that's why it's time for companies to dump the Boy Scouts. Last month Intel, the BSA's then-largest corporate donor, decided to do just that, dropping all funding to the Boy Scouts shortly after a report revealed the names of big companies that give money to the anti-gay Boy Scouts while they claim to support diversity (some with financial donations to LGBT groups), and even many that have anti-discrimination polices that include LGBT people, like Intel. Among them are familiar names, such as Verizon, Bank of America, General Mills, Wells Fargo and Pfizer. That these companies would allow themselves to be connected to the kind of bullying and gay-bashing that Ryan Andresen experienced -- told by the BSA that he didn't honor a "duty to God" -- is outrageous. And it's time for them to stop funding it.

AT&T CEO Randall L. Stephenson was lauded when he came out against the Boy Scouts' anti-gay policy but decided to stay on its board -- which he's expected to lead in 2014 -- saying he can get more done to change the anti-gay policy than if he and AT&T simply pulled out of the Boy Scouts entirely. The same goes for Ernst & Young CEO James Turley, a board member who'd earlier come out against the policy.

But is it really the case that these companies will change the Boy Scouts and its hateful policy, or are they enabling the Boy Scouts and having it both ways? They do, after all, continue to reap the PR benefits of financially backing the Boy Scouts among those who support the organization (and AT&T is listed at the top of the BSA's list of sponsors on its website) while they can assuage the critics by claiming the companies are working on their behalf. All the while, big money still goes to funding an anti-gay organization and to ejecting young people like Ryan Andresen.

The Boy Scouts has deep connections to the Mormon Church and to Catholic and evangelical groups, and a great many in its membership are among families in those faiths. It's inconceivable that the Boy Scouts is simply trying to buy time, believing it inevitable that the organization will one day include gay youth, as many of the rest of us might believe. Why would it put off something that it believes it's going to have to eventually do, in the process suffering much erosion in its public image?

No, the Boy Scouts is in it for the long haul, determined to exclude gay people forever. Membership is already down, but the BSA is not budging, staying true to its anti-gay mission. The only thing that may change that is if it becomes severely financially debilitated. But whether or not that is the case, companies, no matter their claims of good intentions, should not be funding bigotry.

Dam Gay bashers.

The homos aren't going to take this **** lying down...on their knees maybe...

[yermom]

so you are against private companies deciding where their money should go?

[okie52]

so you are against private companies deciding where their money should go?

The gays are...how about you?

[yermom]

The gays are...how about you?

i don't see where the gays are passing laws to prevent it.

AT&T can do whatever they want. i still don't plan on using their ****ty service.

[okie52]

i don't see where the gays are passing laws to prevent it.

AT&T can do whatever they want. i still don't plan on using their ****ty service.

Nobody passed laws including the straights but that wasn't your question...gays are demanding AT&T quit funding the BSA. Boycott may be next.

[pphilfran]

It is sad...

There is not a good way out for the scouts...

They admit gays and they will lose more scouts and leaders than they gain in gays...

They refuse to admit gays and they will lose funding and a few gay supporters...

Either way they are going to take it up the...well you know what I mean...

[okie52]

Either way they are going to take it up the...well you know what I mean...

Heh...that was the plan all along.

[okie52]

The LDS Church became formally affiliated with the Boy Scouts in 1913. According to figures on the Boy Scouts of America website, as of 2011, there were nearly 38,000 scouting units sponsored by the Latter Day Saints. That’s nearly 34 percent of all units nationwide.

And the LDS Church, which opposes “homosexual behavior,” holds sway with the Boy Scouts of America.
In a brief filed in the landmark case of Boy Scouts of America v. Dale, a lawyer for the LDS Church warned that the church would leave the scouts if gays were allowed to be scout leaders.

"If the appointment of scout leaders cannot be limited to those who live and affirm the sexual standards of BSA and its religious sponsors, the Scouting Movement as now constituted will cease to exist, “ wrote Von G. Keetch on behalf of the LDS Church and several other religious organizations in 2000 (PDF). “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- the largest single sponsor of Scouting units in the United States -- would withdraw from Scouting if it were compelled to accept openly homosexual Scout leaders.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/18/boy-scouts-get-big-money-_n_1894248.html

[pphilfran]

I just pulled out my 1966 printing of the Boy Scout Hand Book (Mom saved everything)

ON the front page I wrote out in Morse Code "Boy Scouts are okay" lol

Each Patrol gets to name itself and use that animal call...as the book states
"The bellow of the moose."
"The whistle of the hawk."
"The bark of the fox."
"The hoot of an owl."

New gay patrols could be...
Flamingo...sounds like a goose with a lisp...
]
Any others?

[Turd_Ferguson]

I just pulled out my 1966 printing of the Boy Scout Hand Book (Mom saved everything)

ON the front page I wrote out in Morse Code "Boy Scouts are okay" lol

Each Patrol gets to name itself and use that animal call...as the book states
"The bellow of the moose."
"The whistle of the hawk."
"The bark of the fox."
"The hoot of an owl."

New gay patrols could be...
Flamingo...sounds like a goose with a lisp...
]
Any others?

lmmfao!!!

[badger]

If you all haven't heard:


The Boy Scouts of America put off a decision Wednesday on whether to lift its ban on gay members and leaders, saying the question will be taken up at the organization's national meeting in May.
Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=13&articleid=20130206_13_0_IRVING162368)

[okie52]

Boy Scouts Gay Policy Decision Delayed
By NOMAAN MERCHANT 02/06/13 11:08 AM ET EST

IRVING, Texas — The Boy Scouts of America put off a decision Wednesday on whether to lift its ban on gay members and leaders, saying the question will be taken up at the organization's national meeting in May.

"After careful consideration and extensive dialogue within the Scouting family, along with comments from those outside the organization, the volunteer officers of the Boy Scouts of America's National Executive Board concluded that due to the complexity of this issue, the organization needs time for a more deliberate review of its membership policy," Deron Smith, the BSA director of public relations, said in a statement.

Smith said the organization's national executive board will prepare a resolution for the 1,400 voting members of the national council to consider. The annual meeting will take place in May, 2013, in Grapevine, Texas.

Walking to his car after the delay was announced, board member Jack Furst had very little to say.

"It's all good," Furst told The Associated Press before driving away.

The BSA announced last week it was considering allowing troops to decide whether to allow gay membership. That news has placed a spotlight on executive board meetings that began Monday in Irving, Texas, where scouting headquarters is located.

Smith said last week that the board could take a vote Wednesday or decide to discuss the policy, but that the organization would issue a statement either way. Otherwise, the board has remained silent, with reporters barred from the hotel where its meetings are taking place.

At nearby BSA headquarters, a handful of Scouts and leaders delivered petitions Monday in support of letting gay members join. The conservative group Texas Values, meanwhile, had organized a Wednesday morning prayer vigil urging the Scouts to keep their policy the same.

President Barack Obama, an opponent of the policy, and Texas Gov. Rick Perry, an Eagle Scout who supports it, both have weighed in.


"My attitude is that gays and lesbians should have access and opportunity the same way everybody else does in every institution and walk of life," said Obama, who as U.S. president is the honorary president of BSA, in a Sunday interview with CBS.

Perry, the author of the book "On My Honor: Why the American Values of the Boy Scouts Are Worth Fighting For," said in a speech Saturday that "to have popular culture impact 100 years of their standards is inappropriate."

The board faces several choices, none of which is likely to quell controversy. Standing pat would go against the public wishes of two high-profile board members – Ernst & Young CEO James Turley and AT&T Inc. CEO Randall Stephenson – who run companies with nondiscrimination policies and have said they would work from within to change the Scouts' policy.

Conservatives have warned of mass defections if Scouting allows gay membership to be determined by troops. Local and regional leaders, as well as the leadership of churches that sponsor troops, would be forced to consider their own policies. And policy opponents who delivered four boxes of signatures to BSA headquarters Monday said they wouldn't be satisfied by only a partial acceptance of gay scouts and leaders.

"We don't want to see Scouting gerrymandered into blue and red districts," said Brad Hankins, campaign director of Scouts for Equality.

.

[okie52]

If you all haven't heard:


Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=13&articleid=20130206_13_0_IRVING162368)

Beat me to it.

[pphilfran]

Here it is....the ramblings of a 12 year old, jack booted, para military clone...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0001_zps798b9718.jpg

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Here it is....the ramblings of a 12 year old, jack booted, para military clone...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0001_zps798b9718.jpg

Did this Nazi ever play guns as a kid? Hopefully the FBI has him under surveillance.

[49r]

Here it is....the ramblings of a 12 year old, jack booted, para military clone...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0001_zps798b9718.jpg

Now I'm no expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears here that you wrote

Boy
Sc
Outs
Are
Okay

:)

[diverdog]

Now I'm no expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears here that you wrote

Boy
Sc
Outs
Are
Okay

:)

Lol

[sappstuf]

Here it is....the ramblings of a 12 year old, jack booted, para military clone...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0001_zps798b9718.jpg

Eat... More... Ovaltine.

[Soonerjeepman]

Jambo is in WV at the new BSA High Adventure Camp Bechtel Summit. They are putting $300 million into the place.

ah yeah...unfortunately that is the one my son hasn't done. Sea Base '10, Philmont in '11, Boundary Waters '12...nor will do, aging out.

[Soonerjeepman]

love how the gays use BIGOTRY....just because I don't believe their lifestyle is normal. Sorry some guy sticking his $%#^@ up another guy's rear-end or give him oral is NOT NORMAL.. Kind of like homophobic..another overused word against us that don't support the homosexual lifestyle.

NO, I don't believe your life style is normal, PROVE to me it is.

[KantoSooner]

Just curious, but what happened between 2:24 and 2:26 to move you from contemplating your son's scout jamboree attendance history to foaming at the mouth and cursing.
That was kind of cool, kind of disturbing.

[Soonerjeepman]

lol...perfect example...not "foaming at the mouth"...just tired of those words being used when the homosexual community doesn't like someone telling them no.

The response was from the post that had the article calling the BSA organization bigots. (Okie52's post)

Oh, btw, he hasn't been to a jamboree, those were all High Adventure camps, like the new one in WV.

[SicEmBaylor]

I recall Calvin once had a teenager put to death for defying his parents and did numerous other extreme things. There were the Salem witch trials, etc. Just about every religion has a checkered past when it comes to human rights.

Oh sure there were protestant excesses, but it wasn't universal protestant policy for over five/six centuries. There were certainly protestant bad seeds but nothing compared to Catholicism. And I'm not some bible thumping protestant -- I'm not even Christian.

[cleller]

Eat... More... Ovaltine.

Hah!

[Soonerjeepman]

Oh sure there were protestant excesses, but it wasn't universal protestant policy for over five/six centuries. There were certainly protestant bad seeds but nothing compared to Catholicism. And I'm not some bible thumping protestant -- I'm not even Christian.

like livin in the past...? I'm of German decent...so ya going to hold the Jewish extermination against me?

[C&CDean]

like livin in the past...? I'm of German decent...so ya going to hold the Jewish extermination against me?

****IN' AAAA!!1!!!

[SicEmBaylor]

like livin in the past...? I'm of German decent...so ya going to hold the Jewish extermination against me?
Not unless you consider yourself a Nazi. Your ethnicity isn't something you can choose for yourself. Catholicism on the other hand...

The reformation was the greatest thing to happen in European history. If it hadn't happened, we'd still be in the dark ages today....no question in my mind. The reformation gave us the enlightenment the enlightenment gave us free-thinking, science, and progress which gave us individual rights, due process, and ultimately the country we all live in and love today.

[Soonerjeepman]

****IN' AAAA!!1!!!

Ha Hitler...or whatever they said~ ;-)

and PROUD to be Catholic ...

[SicEmBaylor]

Ha Hitler...or whatever they said~ ;-)

and PROUD to be Catholic ...
So you're both Catholic AND German? I bet you're the life of the party.

[diverdog]

ah yeah...unfortunately that is the one my son hasn't done. Sea Base '10, Philmont in '11, Boundary Waters '12...nor will do, aging out.

My kid did Northern Tier last year. We will go to Philmont in 2014.

[Soonerjeepman]

lol..well DD this is ONE thing we have in common...lol

Have fun, definitely work-out before. I play bball once a week, pretty active but it kicked my ***. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT do a trek with a mule...it isn't worth it.

[Soonerjeepman]

So you're both Catholic AND German? I bet you're the life of the party.

yup~

[Midtowner]

Oh sure there were protestant excesses, but it wasn't universal protestant policy for over five/six centuries. There were certainly protestant bad seeds but nothing compared to Catholicism. And I'm not some bible thumping protestant -- I'm not even Christian.

There has never been such a thing as universal protestant policy.

That said, they've been just as bad.

[SicEmBaylor]

There has never been such a thing as universal protestant policy.

That said, they've been just as bad.
To your first statement, I know.
To your second statement, you're dead-wrong. They could be as bad at times, but they were absolutely not as bad overall. Not even close. Not even in the same league. But if you want to be a Catholic apologist when it flies in the face of facts then by all means don't let me stop you. Knock yourself out.

[olevetonahill]

To your first statement, I know.
To your second statement, you're dead-wrong. They could be as bad at times, but they were absolutely not as bad overall. Not even close. Not even in the same league. But if you want to be a Catholic apologist when it flies in the face of facts then by all means don't let me stop you. Knock yourself out.

Please Do, I'll even loan ya a big assed hammer for the job.

[diverdog]

lol..well DD this is ONE thing we have in common...lol

Have fun, definitely work-out before. I play bball once a week, pretty active but it kicked my ***. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT do a trek with a mule...it isn't worth it.

I am a pretty avid backpacker and have done NM before. Already training for the 2013 season.

Thanks for the advice on the mule. Too funny.

BTW the Bechtel Summit is the new home for the Jamboree. They moved it from FT. AP Hill. Friends of mine have been there and they said construction is around the clock.

[Soonerjeepman]

DD, that's cool....my son has gone to Montana the last 2 summers with his mother's bro-in-law..pretty cool scenery. I'm a John Denver fan so I grew up thinking of the RMT a lot...lol. New Mexico is beautiful, eventually like to retire in the Raton area, unless I get hitched with the GF.

He wants to live in Co, Wym, Mont...somewhere in the mountains. I told him to go for it...if that's your dream, go early.

See, even though we disagree on most everything, there is something~ lol

[C&CDean]

OK. What I've learned from this thread is that DD and Jeep are both mega-nerds. Heh.

[diverdog]

DD, that's cool....my son has gone to Montana the last 2 summers with his mother's bro-in-law..pretty cool scenery. I'm a John Denver fan so I grew up thinking of the RMT a lot...lol. New Mexico is beautiful, eventually like to retire in the Raton area, unless I get hitched with the GF.

He wants to live in Co, Wym, Mont...somewhere in the mountains. I told him to go for it...if that's your dream, go early.

See, even though we disagree on most everything, there is something~ lol

I bet I have more in common with guys on these threads than you would believe. Most if not all my friends are knuckle dragging neanderthal conservatives. :).

I was born in Wyoming and have hiked or backpacked the Wind River Range, the Bitterroots in Idaho, Glacier in Montana and Western Washington State. Last Year I backpacked the Bold Coast of Maine. Age is starting to get to me. I will be 55 this year and 56 when I do Philmont. That might be my last big trip.

[olevetonahill]

OK. What I've learned from this thread is that DD and Jeep are both mega-nerds. Heh.

But Scouting Is for the Kids , The Adults stay out of it.:tongue:

[C&CDean]

I bet I have more in common with guys on these threads than you would believe. Most if not all my friends are knuckle dragging neanderthal conservatives. :).

I was born in Wyoming and have hiked or backpacked the Wind River Range, the Bitterroots in Idaho, Glacier in Montana and Western Washington State. Last Year I backpacked the Bold Coast of Maine. Age is starting to get to me. I will be 55 this year and 56 when I do Philmont. That might be my last big trip.

That age thing ain't no **** brother. I used to go every year and hunt elk in Northern Colorado up by Steamboat. The first bull I ever shot was about 2 miles straight uphill outta camp. We were at least smart enough to hunt uphill so we could drag them out downhill. Took 3 of us all night to move that bull close enough to camp to get a truck to it. It was in the 20's, and we were all in T-shirts sweating like olevet when he sees the popo in his rearview.

Hunted hard like that every year all the way until I was about 52 or so. The last time I was up in that area I decided to hoof it up to that big meadow where I killed that bull and a couple others. The last 400 yards or so damn near killed me. Almost 11K feet, about a 40-45 degree incline over timber and deadfall. Once I got up there I just sat for a while and thought "nope, ain't gonna kill one up here now even if he decides to commit suicide. No way in hell I'd get him down." Well I would, but didn't want to if you know what I mean?

Now I'm 55, and have no desire to elk hunt anymore. I still like to mulie hunt though and they're a lot easier to stalk/kill/haul out than an elk. We go to the same area, but we stick to the 7K - 9K altitude where the deer like to hang.

[olevetonahill]

Dean, Go on a guided hunt. Let THEM pack it out.
When I got my Bear in Idaho in 82 We packed it out on our shoulders till we got to the Horses, Then the Fun started once the Horses got the smell of that bear

[C&CDean]

Dean, Go on a guided hunt. Let THEM pack it out.
When I got my Bear in Idaho in 82 We packed it out on our shoulders till we got to the Horses, Then the Fun started once the Horses got the smell of that bear

I may be old Howard, but I ain't gay. Guided hunts are for people who can't hunt.

[olevetonahill]

I may be old Howard, but I ain't gay. Guided hunts are for people who can't hunt.

We aint talkin Huntin ya dumas we talkin PACKIN :tongue:

[KantoSooner]

You should hunt moose in Alaska. I should probably say 'hunt'.
1. Get your cow moose tag
2. Get a paddle raft
3. Get a bottle of compressed air
4. Make sure you've got four truck tire innertubes.

Take the raft down close to the back waters where the moose like to feed. Get over close to one. This is the tricky part as they will try to move away, stay in deep water. Use a .45 and shoot them in the head. Put the innertubes on their legs and inflate. Float all the way down to the take out where your truck is located. The water temp is about 35 degrees during the season, so the carcass is already pretty cooled by the time you field dress it.

Not much for campfire stories, but it'll put hundreds of pounds of meat in your freezer and is as predictable as going to the store.

At least that's the way it was done in 1980.

[Soonerjeepman]

OK. What I've learned from this thread is that DD and Jeep are both mega-nerds. Heh.

nice one..made me laugh...now let's get back to the ORIGINAL idea...NO gays in BSA! ;-)

[Soonerjeepman]

I bet I have more in common with guys on these threads than you would believe. Most if not all my friends are knuckle dragging neanderthal conservatives. :).

I was born in Wyoming and have hiked or backpacked the Wind River Range, the Bitterroots in Idaho, Glacier in Montana and Western Washington State. Last Year I backpacked the Bold Coast of Maine. Age is starting to get to me. I will be 55 this year and 56 when I do Philmont. That might be my last big trip.

ah, age in only in the mind~ riiigghhtt....your trek include Baldy? that was a tough day hike. 12,200, the last 200 yrds or so 35-45 degrees on broken shell...i had to stop every 20 yrds or so. but the view was spectacular.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01750-1.jpg

[okie52]

Do the boy scouts ban illegals?

[KantoSooner]

They do. but only if they are atheist pot smokers, as well.

[okie52]

I noticed that the BSA is now printing Spanish version BSA manuals...just to have a really BIG TENT.

[8timechamps]

I bet I have more in common with guys on these threads than you would believe. Most if not all my friends are knuckle dragging neanderthal conservatives. :).

I was born in Wyoming and have hiked or backpacked the Wind River Range, the Bitterroots in Idaho, Glacier in Montana and Western Washington State. Last Year I backpacked the Bold Coast of Maine. Age is starting to get to me. I will be 55 this year and 56 when I do Philmont. That might be my last big trip.

Have you done Phimont in the past? Went when I was 17, amazing!

[Soonerjeepman]

8time..when was that? I went in '81 as a 17 yr old (co-ed explorers post) then again in 2011 with my son (that one about killed me~) Funny the trek pic before ya leave is almost identical form my '81 to '11 photo...prob the same bench..lol

[pphilfran]

I went the first time in 1966 or 67...

No gas heated showers at the overnight stops...if you wanted a hot shower you had to gather up wood to stoke the boiler...we had momma bear and a couple of cubs come wandering into camp...it was a good trip...

In 1977 I was second in command of a group of 10...I had just had an old slice and dice knee surgery in Feb and had busted my *** to get it into shape by July...this was a spectacular trip...

Our itinerary didn't have us hiking past a food replenish station so me and the two strongest kids would take an independent side trip to get the next ration of food...did a lot of miles but did get Cotlets/Applets and actual fruit at the food restock...even conned em out of two cobbler making materials...

I also took four kids up Trail Peak (10,200 or something) (to see an old B24 Bomber wreck...the trail went straight up that mother ****er..and I mean straight the **** up...and we had to go over the top and just over the other side to see the wreck...so just as we get to the top of this *** kicking climb a thunderstorm rolls in...we are within spitting distance of the crest...lightening happening...****ed again...we laid low until the bolts from Thor moved to the east...then we scampered over the top...several crosses in the ground...broken up fuselage still in place...believe it or not still pieces in a few trees...

Ground dried corn for cornbread..probably had more sandstone than corn but damn it was good...

Had an old Indian style sauna...heat up them big old rocks and roll em into the dome and pour water on em...steamed that place up! As soon as you came out they dumped a big bucket of cold river water on ya...

And Beef Stroganoff with freeze dried beef bits was the best meal...

[FaninAma]

Now I'm 55, and have no desire to elk hunt anymore. I still like to mulie hunt though and they're a lot easier to stalk/kill/haul out than an elk. We go to the same area, but we stick to the 7K - 9K altitude where the deer like to hang.

That's cause you are getting freakin' old. But as a younger man I still repect you. :D

[Midtowner]

Posted by Edmond Outsider on OKCTalk. I found this to be just spot-on on this subject:


I am a card carrying, adult member of the BSA. I've been involved in the BSA as a Cub, Webelo, Boy Scout, and now, with my three sons as an adult leader.

For 35 of my 40 years with the BSA, I've known of gay scouts and leaders. As I've gotten older, I've learned how many of the my gay friends are seriously troubled by how the rules of BSA prevent them from living up to Scout Law which prevents them from being Honest, Trustworthy, and Morally Straight as currently defined.

I have a scout in my troop who has confided in me that he is deeply conflicted about going forward with his Eagle Board of Review because he doesn't know how he can be true to his sense of who he is and true to the Oath and Law when asked to define what it means to him.

And to reveal how critical this issue is right now, there are adult leaders throughout our district and council who have made the issue of scout's sexuality--and rooting out those they see as subversive--thier personal crusade. I do not know of any who have fallen victim to this, but I've heard the loud boasting of many who threaten to "bounce the gays out of the BSA." There is intense fear growing about the issue among quite a number of scouts for good cause.

But, let the process take its time, right? If a few kids are destroyed in the process, that's ok because we need the homophobes be able to take thier time no matter how long it takes so they will feel good about ruining the lives of the kids struggling now.

Kid's only have a few years to complete thier eagle but the bigots have the rest of thier miserable lives to ruin scouting for those kids trying to live up to the ideals.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Posted by Edmond Outsider on OKCTalk. I found this to be just spot-on on this subject:

How bout they just keep their ****'n mouth shut(don't ask don't tell ring a bell?). Nobody needs to know if you suck **** or not if your a good scout leader...

[yermom]

How bout they just keep their ****'n mouth shut(don't ask don't tell ring a bell?). Nobody needs to know if you suck **** or not if your a good scout leader...

DADT didn't go over that well either.

you shouldn't have to hide who you are. there would have to be a lot of lying. that's what the post above was about.

[Turd_Ferguson]

DADT didn't go over that well either.

you shouldn't have to hide who you are. there would have to be a lot of lying. that's what the post above was about.

How are they having to hide who they are? Are they wanting to discuss their secksual desires with the kids?

[okie52]

Posted by Edmond Outsider on OKCTalk. I found this to be just spot-on on this subject:


I am a card carrying, adult member of the BSA. I've been involved in the BSA as a Cub, Webelo, Boy Scout, and now, with my three sons as an adult leader.

For 35 of my 40 years with the BSA, I've known of gay scouts and leaders. As I've gotten older, I've learned how many of the my gay friends are seriously troubled by how the rules of BSA prevent them from living up to Scout Law which prevents them from being Honest, Trustworthy, and Morally Straight as currently defined.

I have a scout in my troop who has confided in me that he is deeply conflicted about going forward with his Eagle Board of Review because he doesn't know how he can be true to his sense of who he is and true to the Oath and Law when asked to define what it means to him.

And to reveal how critical this issue is right now, there are adult leaders throughout our district and council who have made the issue of scout's sexuality--and rooting out those they see as subversive--thier personal crusade. I do not know of any who have fallen victim to this, but I've heard the loud boasting of many who threaten to "bounce the gays out of the BSA." There is intense fear growing about the issue among quite a number of scouts for good cause.

But, let the process take its time, right? If a few kids are destroyed in the process, that's ok because we need the homophobes be able to take thier time no matter how long it takes so they will feel good about ruining the lives of the kids struggling now.

Kid's only have a few years to complete thier eagle but the bigots have the rest of thier miserable lives to ruin scouting for those kids trying to live up to the ideals.

Spot on from perhaps a gay viewpoint but what about the BSA? If the BSA and its membership don't believe homosexual sex acts are "morally straight" then are they being "true" to their beliefs? If someone doesn't agree with homosexuality are they bigoted? Seems your spot on poster is "tolerant" only if the BSA agrees with his perspective.

their...just to help him out.

[KantoSooner]

The medical/psych community has, I believe ruled on this: homosexuality has been removed as a 'disorder' and is now considered to be within the arc of 'normal' sexual behaviors.
If the BSA is determined to label something that is thus 'normal' (and has been seen, historically in no less a character than Alexander the Great) as 'immoral', that's fine, it's up to them. If they do, however, they should acknowledge that their position is arbitrary.

[Turd_Ferguson]

The medical/psych community has, I believe ruled on this: homosexuality has been removed as a 'disorder' and is now considered to be within the arc of 'normal' sexual behaviors.
If the BSA is determined to label something that is thus 'normal' (and has been seen, historically in no less a character than Alexander the Great) as 'immoral', that's fine, it's up to them. If they do, however, they should acknowledge that their position is arbitrary.

lmao...stick'n your peener up another mans corn hole is "normal"...lmao!!!!!

[yermom]

How are they having to hide who they are? Are they wanting to discuss their secksual desires with the kids?

they don't have to talk about sex, but if they can't acknowledge who they go home to in public, that's a lot of hiding.

[Turd_Ferguson]

they don't have to talk about sex, but if they can't acknowledge who they go home to in public, that's a lot of hiding.

Why do they need to acknowledge who they go home to, to a bunch of kids?

[yermom]

1) you are assuming there is something nefarious about having a same-sex partner.

2) even if they never mentioned being gay to kids, they would have to avoid being seen in public by parents, administrators, etc... as a gay person.

3) we aren't only talking about adults. kids that are scouts would have the same issues.

[Soonerjeepman]

The medical/psych community has, I believe ruled on this: homosexuality has been removed as a 'disorder' and is now considered to be within the arc of 'normal' sexual behaviors.
If the BSA is determined to label something that is thus 'normal' (and has been seen, historically in no less a character than Alexander the Great) as 'immoral', that's fine, it's up to them. If they do, however, they should acknowledge that their position is arbitrary.

link? from a pure biological standpoint...not psych

[Soonerjeepman]

Spot on from perhaps a gay viewpoint but what about the BSA? If the BSA and its membership don't believe homosexual sex acts are "morally straight" then are they being "true" to their beliefs? If someone doesn't agree with homosexuality are they bigoted? Seems your spot on poster is "tolerant" only if the BSA agrees with his perspective.

their...just to help him out.

exactly..whether the med community (mental not physical) has ruled this normal behavior or not...

[okie52]

lmao...stick'n your peener up another mans corn hole is "normal"...lmao!!!!!

LOL

[okie52]

The medical/psych community has, I believe ruled on this: homosexuality has been removed as a 'disorder' and is now considered to be within the arc of 'normal' sexual behaviors.
If the BSA is determined to label something that is thus 'normal' (and has been seen, historically in no less a character than Alexander the Great) as 'immoral', that's fine, it's up to them. If they do, however, they should acknowledge that their position is arbitrary.

Normal really has nothing to do with it... I don't know if the BSA has labeled homosexuality as abnormal but it obviously isn't (or wasn't) in their definition of "morally straight". I would assume lying would be defined as "normal" since most people do it on one level or another...doesn't mean that "behavior" is what the BSA would need to include as an acceptable stated behavior for its membership. Obviously atheism is unacceptable to their stated beliefs but it certainly wouldn't be stated as "abnormal".

[yermom]

link? from a pure biological standpoint...not psych

define "normal"

there have been gays throughout history at varying levels of acceptance in many cultures. it's also seen in other species in the wild. so what is the "biological standpoint"?

[olevetonahill]

define "normal"

there have been gays throughout history at varying levels of acceptance in many cultures. it's also seen in other species in the wild. so what is the "biological standpoint"?

So you think Its NORMAL and OK for a guy to put his **** up yer ***?
Bend Over Bro here it comes.

[okie52]

So you think Its NORMAL and OK for a guy to put his **** up yer ***?
Bend Over Bro here it comes.

It must be normal cause Obama has done that to everyone.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Uhmmm... outside of asexual reproduction, one cannot procreate and maintain a homosexual lineage with a species. It is a darwinian award getter. There may be instances of homosexual aspects in a species and it may be reproduced in the womb due to hormones, a genetic modification, a "disorder" somehow or by societial modification. But a species dominated by homosexual members would be a dying species. I would consider a species or practice "normal" that would maintain the species longevity.

As for the BSA...as far as I knew what morally straight meant, it meant that people who practiced homosexuality, did deviant sex acts (like bestiality), did mean or criminal things would fall under not being morally straight. I would expect an Eagle Scout say convicted of pedofilia to be stripped of the Award or turn it in. I am sure that doens't happen, that is what I would have thought morally straight meant. If you were homosexual in my Troop, you probably would have been sent on snipe hunts and given latrine duty all the time.

[KantoSooner]

link? from a pure biological standpoint...not psych

Going from memory. DSM V, I believe. PDR removed it as aberrant sometime back in the 1980's.

[yermom]

So you think Its NORMAL and OK for a guy to put his **** up yer ***?
Bend Over Bro here it comes.

last time i checked, i was straight, and we are talking about consentual relationships between adults.

as for putting things in other things, sodomy is practiced plenty by us heteros. so i'm not sure what the point of graphically describing it is.

[yermom]

Uhmmm... outside of asexual reproduction, one cannot procreate and maintain a homosexual lineage with a species. It is a darwinian award getter. There may be instances of homosexual aspects in a species and it may be reproduced in the womb due to hormones, a genetic modification, a "disorder" somehow or by societial modification. But a species dominated by homosexual members would be a dying species. I would consider a species or practice "normal" that would maintain the species longevity.

As for the BSA...as far as I knew what morally straight meant, it meant that people who practiced homosexuality, did deviant sex acts (like bestiality), did mean or criminal things would fall under not being morally straight. I would expect an Eagle Scout say convicted of pedofilia to be stripped of the Award or turn it in. I am sure that doens't happen, that is what I would have thought morally straight meant. If you were homosexual in my Troop, you probably would have been sent on snipe hunts and given latrine duty all the time.

so by keeping them in the closet you are helping them reproduce with all those sham marriages ;)

[okie52]

last time i checked, i was straight, and we are talking about consentual relationships between adults.

as for putting things in other things, sodomy is practiced plenty by us heteros. so i'm not sure what the point of graphically describing it is.

Doing it to a chick is fine...consensually speaking of course. For some reason a lot of chicks resist that temptation...go figure?

[KantoSooner]

Uhmmm... outside of asexual reproduction, one cannot procreate and maintain a homosexual lineage with a species. It is a darwinian award getter. There may be instances of homosexual aspects in a species and it may be reproduced in the womb due to hormones, a genetic modification, a "disorder" somehow or by societial modification. But a species dominated by homosexual members would be a dying species. I would consider a species or practice "normal" that would maintain the species longevity.



It's interesting to run the math on this. Traditional positions in society that were dominated by homosexuals (various priesthoods, shamans and the like) would produce none of their own offspring. They would, however, greatly increase their nieces and nephews' chances of greater reproductive success. And although you aren't as closely related to a niece or nephew genetically as you would be to your own children (1/8 vs. 1/2), in the relatively high birth rate world of most traditiional societies, the extra success and chances that would be given children whose uncles or aunts were 'special' can very well result in a higher transmission of that 'special' person's DNA to future generations. Personal lack of reproductioin is therefore not a genetic deadend.

Like most things in genetics, optimum levels are a numbers game that varies over enviroment and cultural baselines. But, when we ran several calculations in my sociobio courses, we came up with an 'optimal' homosexual population rate of somewhere between 8 and 15% of a population. And that is precisely what we see around the world today.

Although the following is speculative, we know that fetal development can be affected by the mother's environment. It is not unthinkable that exposure to chemical 'markers' (phermones?) may direct fetal development in such a way as to 'hold' the level of homosexuals in a community around this norm. If a mother, for example, was exposed to 'too many' homosexuals in her environment while pregnant, it may be that her fetus will have less likelihood to be born with a bias towards growing up gay. And vice versa. Again, that last is speculation.

[olevetonahill]

last time i checked, i was straight, and we are talking about consentual relationships between adults.

as for putting things in other things, sodomy is practiced plenty by us heteros. so i'm not sure what the point of graphically describing it is.

I were being "Facetious" . :friendly_wink:

[Soonerjeepman]

last time i checked, i was straight, and we are talking about consentual relationships between adults.

as for putting things in other things, sodomy is practiced plenty by us heteros. so i'm not sure what the point of graphically describing it is.

...if you scientifically look at sex it's pure reproduction. Animals (besides humans) don't show love and respect that way. All acts of sex besides intercourse are for pleasure only...therefor no scientific reason to do them, they do not produce off-spring. All this refers to debate of whether homosexual acts are "normal". Honestly, oral, anal...anything else is for pure pleasure, which I don't put into "normal". Not saying it isn't fun or feels good but since the libs/dem all want true science on their side, tell me how 2 guys or girls having sexual relations will fulfill the one true meaning of sex, procreation?

[Midtowner]

...if you scientifically look at sex it's pure reproduction. Animals (besides humans) don't show love and respect that way.

Please educate us on your vast knowledge in the area of animal sexual behavior.

Did you go to OSU?

[olevetonahill]

Please educate us on your vast knowledge in the area of animal sexual behavior.

Did you go to OSU?


This is rich, coming from you .:applause:

[Soonerjeepman]

nope, worked at the zoo in Manhattan Ks for a few yrs. You tell me about instead of being an (nevermind. not worth it)...show me some scientific proof?

ya know instead of making some snide remark just answer the question..proof?

[olevetonahill]

nope, worked at the zoo in Manhattan Ks for a few yrs. You tell me about instead of being an (nevermind. not worth it)...show me some scientific proof?

ya know instead of making some snide remark just answer the question..proof?

Hell I been watchin animals and Peoples **** most all my life, Do that make me an expert?

[Wishboned]

Hell I been watchin animals and Peoples **** most all my life, Do that make me an expert?

No that makes you a perv!

:)

[Soonerjeepman]

sure...lol

[olevetonahill]

No that makes you a perv!

:)

No Im a Provert Cause im so good at it.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

It's interesting to run the math on this. Traditional positions in society that were dominated by homosexuals (various priesthoods, shamans and the like) would produce none of their own offspring. They would, however, greatly increase their nieces and nephews' chances of greater reproductive success. And although you aren't as closely related to a niece or nephew genetically as you would be to your own children (1/8 vs. 1/2), in the relatively high birth rate world of most traditiional societies, the extra success and chances that would be given children whose uncles or aunts were 'special' can very well result in a higher transmission of that 'special' person's DNA to future generations. Personal lack of reproductioin is therefore not a genetic deadend.

Like most things in genetics, optimum levels are a numbers game that varies over enviroment and cultural baselines. But, when we ran several calculations in my sociobio courses, we came up with an 'optimal' homosexual population rate of somewhere between 8 and 15% of a population. And that is precisely what we see around the world today.

Although the following is speculative, we know that fetal development can be affected by the mother's environment. It is not unthinkable that exposure to chemical 'markers' (phermones?) may direct fetal development in such a way as to 'hold' the level of homosexuals in a community around this norm. If a mother, for example, was exposed to 'too many' homosexuals in her environment while pregnant, it may be that her fetus will have less likelihood to be born with a bias towards growing up gay. And vice versa. Again, that last is speculation.


Interesting treatise. I am not going to argue the statistics, your point is a strong one. I have seen it myself in the homosexuals that I know that are strong members of society. They are all planning for the well-being of their nieces and nephews. I would have thought that the homoestasis would be far lower, but I think the US number is around 12% +- a couple %.

[KantoSooner]

...if you scientifically look at sex it's pure reproduction. Animals (besides humans) don't show love and respect that way. All acts of sex besides intercourse are for pleasure only...therefor no scientific reason to do them, they do not produce off-spring. All this refers to debate of whether homosexual acts are "normal". Honestly, oral, anal...anything else is for pure pleasure, which I don't put into "normal". Not saying it isn't fun or feels good but since the libs/dem all want true science on their side, tell me how 2 guys or girls having sexual relations will fulfill the one true meaning of sex, procreation?

Suggest you do some reading on Bonobos, a quasi-species (meaning, I'm not sure if anyone has decided whether Bonobos are truly separate from the rest of the Chimp world genetically, or just behaviourally) of Chimpanzees. The so-called 'hippy' Chimps, Bonobos have tremendously lower levels of violence and violent display and competition compared to their East African cousins.

One striking facet of Bonobo society is a tremendous amount of sexual contact, including some that is arguably homosexual in nature. This behaviour includes manual stimulation and other behaviours that by their nature can have no utility to reproduction. They are for fun and serve to reduce tensions in the group.

Sexual behaviour in primates, and possibly in a number of mammals and perhaps even in birds serve a large number of functions beyond simple procreation. Maintenance and advertisement of an exclusive pair bond is one rather obvious one. Enforcement of dominant/submissive relations in more complex pack animals is another.

It is not true that sexual behavior is limited to a single functionality in nature and scads of non-reproductive human and animal sexual behaviors make this stupifyingly obvious.

[yermom]

...if you scientifically look at sex it's pure reproduction. Animals (besides humans) don't show love and respect that way. All acts of sex besides intercourse are for pleasure only...therefor no scientific reason to do them, they do not produce off-spring. All this refers to debate of whether homosexual acts are "normal". Honestly, oral, anal...anything else is for pure pleasure, which I don't put into "normal". Not saying it isn't fun or feels good but since the libs/dem all want true science on their side, tell me how 2 guys or girls having sexual relations will fulfill the one true meaning of sex, procreation?

look up dolphins, and bonobos

how many dogs have humped your leg? are they procreating?

[SoonerAtKU]

I personally think we should disallow men with vasectomies or that are sterile from being part of the BSA. I mean, if they aren't having procreative sex, it's clearly deviant.

[SoonerAtKU]

On the real, though, the last thing we need in this world is for everyone alive to have a bunch of kids. Resources are already getting scarcer, so if we have a certain percentage that won't have kids of their own either through orientation or biology, that's probably for the common good.

[okie52]

I personally think we should disallow men with vasectomies or that are sterile from being part of the BSA. I mean, if they aren't having procreative sex, it's clearly deviant.

Well crap...that let's me out. I knew there was a reason scouting didn't appeal to me.

[yermom]

On the real, though, the last thing we need in this world is for everyone alive to have a bunch of kids. Resources are already getting scarcer, so if we have a certain percentage that won't have kids of their own either through orientation or biology, that's probably for the common good.

it's never the people you want to stop having kids that stop having kids ;)

[8timechamps]

8time..when was that? I went in '81 as a 17 yr old (co-ed explorers post) then again in 2011 with my son (that one about killed me~) Funny the trek pic before ya leave is almost identical form my '81 to '11 photo...prob the same bench..lol

'84. We planned for about two years before we went. Since you've been, you know how amazing it is. I'd love to go back, but not sure I could escape uninjured...lol

[diverdog]

Interesting article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/09/us/boy-scouts-say-leak-undermined-plan-on-gay-ban.html?hp&_r=0

[Soonerjeepman]

8time...yes it about killed me the 2nd time at 47. I wouldn't trade it for anything though. It was my 30th ann from the 1st time and being in the trek with my son for his first time. We did a 74 mile one, up baldy, phillips and possibly bear. I just couldn't do Phillips, it was an off-shoot hike. A few scouts wanted to stay down, including my son, which was sad...really wanted him to hike up.

He might go out and work as a ranger in the summer if he can. Not a real $$ for a summer job, $2K I think but the fringe benefits are great!

[diverdog]

8time...yes it about killed me the 2nd time at 47. I wouldn't trade it for anything though. It was my 30th ann from the 1st time and being in the trek with my son for his first time. We did a 74 mile one, up baldy, phillips and possibly bear. I just couldn't do Phillips, it was an off-shoot hike. A few scouts wanted to stay down, including my son, which was sad...really wanted him to hike up.

He might go out and work as a ranger in the summer if he can. Not a real $$ for a summer job, $2K I think but the fringe benefits are great!

man you have me worried. I am going to have to step it up in the training department.

[Soonerjeepman]

LOL...DD, definitely took more than I though. I def would take sticks...I NEEDED them. Our problem as well was we had a split crew, 2 diff HS, rivals on the field...and the 4 guys were CC guys...our 4 guys were fball/baseball. Our crew also didn't like to get up early, hence we were busting a$$ to get to the next camp.

The other dad, 6'4 230ish...did much better, I started 6'1 212 (lost 13 on the trail). It was more leg tire (if I remember right) than anything, which I though was weird for me.

I know it's not "Boy Scout" to do this, but I would take roasting bags to cook in...that way ya don't have the big pot to clean every night. Just pull the bag and stick it in the yummy bag (I think that is what they called it...pack it, pack it out).

[diverdog]

LOL...DD, definitely took more than I though. I def would take sticks...I NEEDED them. Our problem as well was we had a split crew, 2 diff HS, rivals on the field...and the 4 guys were CC guys...our 4 guys were fball/baseball. Our crew also didn't like to get up early, hence we were busting a$$ to get to the next camp.

The other dad, 6'4 230ish...did much better, I started 6'1 212 (lost 13 on the trail). It was more leg tire (if I remember right) than anything, which I though was weird for me.

I know it's not "Boy Scout" to do this, but I would take roasting bags to cook in...that way ya don't have the big pot to clean every night. Just pull the bag and stick it in the yummy bag (I think that is what they called it...pack it, pack it out).

My biggest issue is that I am on medication that keeps my heart from ramping up quickly and I can get winded. I may go off of it when I go to NM and see how I make out.

Over the past few years I have put together a great ultra light backpacking kit. And when I say I spared no expense is an understatement. I have a granite gear backpack, western mountaineering sleeping bag, western mountaineering jacket, western mountaineering bottoms, a tarp tent (brand) rainbow that is two man tent at about a pound and a half, good merino wool socks, lightweight pad, snow peak stove, titanium pots/utensils and a bunch of other stuff. My base 4 day kit without food and water is about 12 pounds.

The thing I run into on the Appalachian Trail is the lack of water. Last year I carried 6 liters up a 2100 foot climb plus food and kit and it almost made me turn around. At one point we were humping 40 pounds of water alone to our campsite. That is a killer. If water is readily available I can really cover some ground. But if it is not around the story changes rapidly. When I plan my trips I am absolutely meticulous about finding sources of water before I go.

I cannot get away from this controversy that is going on with Scouting. Tomorrow some of the higher ups are coming over to speak with me and I am really wondering what they are going to say. At church I got cornered by one of our non-scouting volunteers who raises campership funds for us and he said that his donors are turning off their spigots because they are mad that the BSA may let gays in. We are in a completely no win situation. We cave we lose our volunteers. We don't cave and all funding drys up and we are labeled a hate organization.

[Soonerjeepman]

yeah I hear ya. Ya know my take..lol hell I started the thread...I am sympathetic to kids who are confused. Again, my base is born/not born..but enough. I actually think the scouts will cave in. I get tired of the "you have to accept us or we'll sue/boycott/etc" attitude. If the gays aren't happy then start their own group...have at it. Anyways, I digress.

Water - you'll be expected to carry ...hmmm...4 liters maybe 6 (algean sp?) bottles a day. USUALLY water is available IN camp. We did have 2 dry camps..had a creek for one and water 1/4 mile away for another. You have pills and boil if ya need. Sure you know that.

We avg 6 to 7 miles a day. My pack with gear was around 45lbs...kids 40 - 50. You'll have cooking gear, rope, trashbags, dinning fly, and other stuff they give you. Tents if ya want but they are 6lbs I think. If you have lighter stuff just throw theirs in the lockers until ya get back, or maybe not even check out..not sure. They actually suspended the no adult/no kid rule for dad's/sons (sleeping arrangements).

Clothing - sure you have this from camping..but the dry fit stuff. From underwear to shirt/shorts/pants. I wouldn't skimp on socks if I did it over...lol only so many "washings" until they are really rank. We had 1 or 2 showers..can't remember. All I took on the trail was a toothbrush and TP. just rinsed off in the shower.

My 2 cents - sounds like your like this - pick a crewleader early, let HIM and the boys make all the decisions. I would though, divide up cooking/cleaning/carry troop gear decisions BEFORE you go. Have it written down. One of the biggies was the yummy bag (left over food/trash). Some times it's a day or 2 before you can dump it.

Medication - I have BP issues. They are METICULOUS about the health screen the day you arrive. IF you have high BP or something else they WILL NOT LET YOU GO. In fact they sent a leader home from another trek that rode the train with us. No refund and immediately. You cannot stay in base camp. I got winded as well but again, if you follow the "go as fast as the slowest guy" rule you should do fine. Our trek did not get along...really divided.

1st day out (july 8th) it rained and hailed on us...as we took our first trail...it was cold and wet. Oh, DON'T do the mule...I told you right? lol ours was a real jacka$$. and they only carry 25 lbs..about 2 lbs per person less...not worth it, in my mind.

It'll be great...how old is your son?

[diverdog]

yeah I hear ya. Ya know my take..lol hell I started the thread...I am sympathetic to kids who are confused. Again, my base is born/not born..but enough. I actually think the scouts will cave in. I get tired of the "you have to accept us or we'll sue/boycott/etc" attitude. If the gays aren't happy then start their own group...have at it. Anyways, I digress.

Water - you'll be expected to carry ...hmmm...4 liters maybe 6 (algean sp?) bottles a day. USUALLY water is available IN camp. We did have 2 dry camps..had a creek for one and water 1/4 mile away for another. You have pills and boil if ya need. Sure you know that.

We avg 6 to 7 miles a day. My pack with gear was around 45lbs...kids 40 - 50. You'll have cooking gear, rope, trashbags, dinning fly, and other stuff they give you. Tents if ya want but they are 6lbs I think. If you have lighter stuff just throw theirs in the lockers until ya get back, or maybe not even check out..not sure. They actually suspended the no adult/no kid rule for dad's/sons (sleeping arrangements).

Clothing - sure you have this from camping..but the dry fit stuff. From underwear to shirt/shorts/pants. I wouldn't skimp on socks if I did it over...lol only so many "washings" until they are really rank. We had 1 or 2 showers..can't remember. All I took on the trail was a toothbrush and TP. just rinsed off in the shower.

My 2 cents - sounds like your like this - pick a crewleader early, let HIM and the boys make all the decisions. I would though, divide up cooking/cleaning/carry troop gear decisions BEFORE you go. Have it written down. One of the biggies was the yummy bag (left over food/trash). Some times it's a day or 2 before you can dump it.

Medication - I have BP issues. They are METICULOUS about the health screen the day you arrive. IF you have high BP or something else they WILL NOT LET YOU GO. In fact they sent a leader home from another trek that rode the train with us. No refund and immediately. You cannot stay in base camp. I got winded as well but again, if you follow the "go as fast as the slowest guy" rule you should do fine. Our trek did not get along...really divided.

1st day out (july 8th) it rained and hailed on us...as we took our first trail...it was cold and wet. Oh, DON'T do the mule...I told you right? lol ours was a real jacka$$. and they only carry 25 lbs..about 2 lbs per person less...not worth it, in my mind.

It'll be great...how old is your son?

Plan A. Oldest son will be 16 when we go. He will be my mule. Lol. Other son will be 14. Most of the crew has done NT together. I have backpacked a lot with them and I am the slowest guy. A year ago I really struggled on the first day of a trek and I was spent. Somehow I made it to camp but I was sick. The next morning I got up and we headed out. One of my friends looked at me and commented that he had a ton of respect for me for gutting it out. So I do have street cred with them. Lol. On top of that I was with a group that finished a 5 day trip that they had never finished before. In the past they had to quit.

Do they allow you to carry wet wipes? I never leave home without them?

[diverdog]

Some Pics:

Heading up to the AT and I am pulling up the rear. It got really steep after this and it was 900 feet of climb in a little over a half mile. We did 16 miles that day:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/tim1158/IMG_0011.jpg

Ed Garvey Shelter on AT. Really famous overnight stop and a beautiful shelter. Huge spiders in that shelter.:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/tim1158/P1100131.jpg

Bold Coast of Maine near Cutler. We are so far east we are in a different time zone. You can see whales and seals from the trail. Winds are vicious at times:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/tim1158/P1100254.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/tim1158/P1100282.jpg

My 78 year old dad:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n54/tim1158/ry320.jpg

[Soonerjeepman]

wow..awesome pics...looks like you'll do fine. You'll see all different terrain. Funny about your sons...do they know that? ;-)

dang it DD, you're making think your a respectable guy and we'd prob get along without the political stuff...lol

[pphilfran]

Great pics DD...I don't think I have any pics from my scouting days...I will have to look...

[pphilfran]

Hell, I have a chit pot full of old pictures...most are faded badly but all will give a chuckle...

Her you go, DD, my 1968 version of light packpacking! Just before my first trip...notice the dress shoes...lol...and that hat will curl up into a triangle look later...I ended up looking pretty scanky...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0004_zps2dfdcd43.jpg

[pphilfran]

Top, fourth from left

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0005_zps0e3961ab.jpg

[pphilfran]

I have more I will scan later...sick girlfriend is coughing on me and I am abandoning ship...third from the right on the bottom

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0006_zps5bc4fafc.jpg

[SicEmBaylor]

I have more I will scan later...sick girlfriend is coughing on me and I am abandoning ship...third from the right on the bottom

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0006_zps5bc4fafc.jpg
You, sir, are very very old.

[Soonerjeepman]

cool pics Phil..ah the Tooth...

[Soonerjeepman]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01755-1.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01762-1.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01832.jpg

[Soonerjeepman]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01889.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01920.jpg

son shootin black powder
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01925.jpg

[Soonerjeepman]

watchin sunrise our last day...got up and broke camp at 3 am to make sunrise, had a 5 mile hike down after that. my boy is in red

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01952.jpg

sunrise

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01958.jpg

lol, I won't post all 300+

[diverdog]

Great pics guys. I just turned in my money for Philmont. Can't wait.

[diverdog]

watchin sunrise our last day...got up and broke camp at 3 am to make sunrise, had a 5 mile hike down after that. my boy is in red

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01952.jpg

sunrise

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01958.jpg

lol, I won't post all 300+

You are a good dad. He will remember that trip forever. Great bonding experience.

[Soonerjeepman]

lol..thanks, but that's debatable. Sounds like you as well. I hope he does keep the memories. I know I did (on my first trip) and will of this one.

You'll have a great time. How are y'all gettin out there? we took the train from KC...long ride but that was cool as well.

[diverdog]

lol..thanks, but that's debatable. Sounds like you as well. I hope he does keep the memories. I know I did (on my first trip) and will of this one.

You'll have a great time. How are y'all gettin out there? we took the train from KC...long ride but that was cool as well.

We are flying and trying to keep the price down so we can take everyone. Some of our kids are from single parent households so we want to make it reasonably cheap.

I met a Scoutmaster who fundraised for two years and took his troop on a 14 day backpacking trip in the Scottish Highlands. Bunch of farm kids who they work hard to get there.

[Soonerjeepman]

ah cool...that would be a trip. Where are you at? Just curious.

I was a SM for my school troop for awhile, inner city. We didn't do any HA. Had a buddy with a bison ranch south of KC, went there for a few weekends. Took the boys to our camp...Bartle. We shared the campsite with a troop from Colo. They were apprehensive when they heard we were an inner city black troop. Our kids didn't even have full class A uniforms...by the end of the 10 days both our troops had merged to one...kids sharing tents, leaders taking kids from both troops to their badges. It was pretty cool.

[diverdog]

ah cool...that would be a trip. Where are you at? Just curious.

I was a SM for my school troop for awhile, inner city. We didn't do any HA. Had a buddy with a bison ranch south of KC, went there for a few weekends. Took the boys to our camp...Bartle. We shared the campsite with a troop from Colo. They were apprehensive when they heard we were an inner city black troop. Our kids didn't even have full class A uniforms...by the end of the 10 days both our troops had merged to one...kids sharing tents, leaders taking kids from both troops to their badges. It was pretty cool.

i live in the middle of Delaware at about ten feet above sea level. That is why I am concerned about training.

[Soonerjeepman]

i live in the middle of Delaware at about ten feet above sea level. That is why I am concerned about training.

ah...yes, Baldy will be a jaunt...12,220 ft. but worth it.

[olevetonahill]

Carry ya some O2

[pphilfran]

Top left - tent at base camp
Top right - panning for gold - notice the triangular cowboy hat
Bottom left - Cimmaroncito campground
Bottom right - top of Mt Phillips (that is a buddy of mine)
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0008_zps36159999.jpg

Top left - Philmont base
Top right - Used boots on main sign
Bottom left - Tooth of time
Bottom right - a big rock

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/Scan0009_zpsb014a746.jpg

[pphilfran]

watchin sunrise our last day...got up and broke camp at 3 am to make sunrise, had a 5 mile hike down after that. my boy is in red

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01952.jpg

sunrise

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/Sooner_Guy/Philmont/DSC01958.jpg

lol, I won't post all 300+

Did the same thing on the second trip...walked down the ridge with flashlights to see sunrise...only half of us went while the rest slept in...

[Soonerjeepman]

cool pics...