Should we be concerned about other species?

[olevetonahill]

Is it really any great loss to us if the "Snail Darter" (sompun I aint ever seen by the way) Disappears from the world? The Spotted Owl?
Critters been becoming extinct forever and we get along just fine with out em


Why should we spend Billions on studies? Just build our stuff and to hell with the weird slugs and stuff.

[Blue]

You would think the evolutionists and atheists would agreee....but...NO! They love the three purple spotted toad. Do not work around their environment! But yeah, kill some heart beating fetuses. Hmmm.

[StoopTroup]

QUIT SENDING THEM MONEY EVERY TIME THEY SEND YOU JUNK MAIL TO SAVE A CUTE TIGER OR PANDA.

CUTE Animals are gateway Sponsors.

[Blue]

Waiting for ST's line to fade out. Like Idiocracy though, he is bound to reproduce, "Duggar-Style".

[StoopTroup]

Waiting for ST's line to fade out. Like Idiocracy though, he is bound to reproduce, "Duggar-Style".

Digger-style?

ROTF

[Midtowner]

Yes, we need to protect endangered species. It's about preserving the world for future generations.

[olevetonahill]

Yes, we need to protect endangered species. It's about preserving the world for future generations.

But the Snail Darter is just some little fish that Very few people have ever seen and prolly never will.

[Midtowner]

But the Snail Darter is just some little fish that Very few people have ever seen and prolly never will.

It's kind of arrogant as a species to decide which other species should continue in existence and which shouldn't. Not to mention the uncertainty of how eliminating biodiversity will affect other species or the possibility that the snail darter could have some sort of adaptation which future research might reveal as vital to humanity.

We've placed a large value on protecting biodiversity where we can and those values trump private property and other individual liberties.

[olevetonahill]

It's kind of arrogant as a species to decide which other species should continue in existence and which shouldn't.

Kinda arrogant of People like you to presume to tell me what I can and cant do with MY own land aint it?

[Midtowner]

Not really. We regulate lots of things, including land use. Do you think zoning laws are arrogant?

[olevetonahill]

Not really. We regulate lots of things, including land use. Do you think zoning laws are arrogant?

To a degree yes they are. Kinda like a HOMA telling some one they cant fly the flag.
Mind your own business, And stay off other peoples property

[FaninAma]

I actually think a lot aspects of environmentalism are important. Take the snail darter for instance. On the surface the species doesn't seem too important but it serves a pupose in the food chain and the environment's homeostasis. Remove it and animals below and above it in the food chain are affected.

An example in this country are coyotes. About 60 years ago they were hunted viciously and their numbers dwindled. Of course all of the undesirable rodents increased in population as did rabbits wreaking havoc on crops and grasslands for livestock grazing.

We just need to consider the consequences of our actions.

Of course environmentalists can be their own worst enemies. I remember a couple of decades ago when a species of moth was devestating the old forrests of the west but the environmentalists prevented the use of the only pesticide that would control them. So millions of acres of forrest were destroyed until the environmentalists were finally overruled. The same thing happened recently in New Mexico. If you have ever been to Red River alot of the conifers looked like crap for several years. This past summer they looked great. I aksed a local what caused the improvement and he stated that the courts in the state finally ruled against the environmentalists and allowed the state and Dept of Interior to spray for a parasite of the trees.

[olevetonahill]

Come on its just a small little fish, Im sure there are better looking little fish that can make up the supply in the food chain. Hell the dayum thing is Ugly
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQrZXo4J8uOii9sWt5iLjspa4DjP4a3a 9juqxyrLihIzhW7g45l

[KantoSooner]

It's pretty much like Fanin writes. As an indicator of an environment's health, sure, we should be concerned. And, in general, disappearance of one critter can have unforeseen (and sometimes big) consequences. So I'm not against, for instance, requiring an official 'sit down and think about it' session before doing something like building a dam or draining a wet land.
On the other hand, there are lots of times that, after that sit down, you reasonably should go right ahead and build/drain it.

[olevetonahill]

Kanto ,Fan. Explain to me what gives YOU the right, Some Miles away from me , You know nothing about my land , Just what gives you the right to tell me what to do with my own land?
Dont want the Little fish to die out? Get some an put em on yer own land

[Turd_Ferguson]

What would happen if all Fly's and Skeeter's were erased off the face of the earth...cause that's what I would like to see happen.

[REDREX]

How many Millions of people have died since DDT was banned ?---- Should we just forget about that cost ?

[olevetonahill]

How many Millions of people have died since DDT was banned ?---- Should we just forget about that cost ?

Whats that got to do with telling me what I can and cant do with my own land?

[FaninAma]

How many Millions of people have died since DDT was banned ?---- Should we just forget about that cost ?

A good example of environmental excess. I understand DDT was harmful to animal species but in certain areas there was no other choice until a suitable substitute could be developed.

[tator]

I actually think a lot aspects of environmentalism are important. Take the snail darter for instance. On the surface the species doesn't seem too important but it serves a pupose in the food chain and the environment's homeostasis. Remove it and animals below and above it in the food chain are affected.

An example in this country are coyotes. About 60 years ago they were hunted viciously and their numbers dwindled. Of course all of the undesirable rodents increased in population as did rabbits wreaking havoc on crops and grasslands for livestock grazing.

We just need to consider the consequences of our actions.

Of course environmentalists can be their own worst enemies. I remember a couple of decades ago when a species of moth was devestating the old forrests of the west but the environmentalists prevented the use of the only pesticide that would control them. So millions of acres of forrest were destroyed until the environmentalists were finally overruled. The same thing happened recently in New Mexico. If you have ever been to Red River alot of the conifers looked like crap for several years. This past summer they looked great. I aksed a local what caused the improvement and he stated that the courts in the state finally ruled against the environmentalists and allowed the state and Dept of Interior to spray for a parasite of the trees.

I agree with all of this.

Vet, is someone in a position of authority telling you that you have to/can't do something on your land because of an environmental issue? Or are you just asking in theory?

[olevetonahill]

I agree with all of this.

Vet, is someone in a position of authority telling you that you have to/can't do something on your land because of an environmental issue? Or are you just asking in theory?

Theory.
I dont ask permission to do anything. Just seems like there are far too many busy body's tryin to stick their nose in other folks business.
Ya dont want DDT used on yer land? Dont use it, Ya dont want the poor little fish killed off? Catch ya some and stock a pond er some ****. Just stay out of My business and OFF my land .
( Not using YOU as in YOU particular Tator)

[tator]

No you offense taken, and I can agree with you unless your use somehow pollutes other areas (through the air maybe, or the water table)

Do you think companies have a greater responsibility to not pollute on their own land or the same liberties as a citizen?

[SoonerorLater]

Theory.
I dont ask permission to do anything. Just seems like there are far too many busy body's tryin to stick their nose in other folks business.
Ya dont want DDT used on yer land? Dont use it, Ya dont want the poor little fish killed off? Catch ya some and stock a pond er some ****. Just stay out of My business and OFF my land .
( Not using YOU as in YOU particular Tator)

I don't know about snail darters in particular but there are lots of things you can't do on your land even though it's your land.

[okie52]

A little story that happened to me with enviros 3 years ago.

I had leased Indian land in SE Oklahoma. I was getting seismic permits for a seismic shoot we were running across a section of land. We had approvals from the BIA pending their environmental department in Muskogee. Our seismic trucks were using vibration techniques only...no dynamite. We received notification that we were to avoid unknown Indian burial grounds...Like how the hell am I going to do that?

Then the environmental agency notified us that we were possibly crossing the habitat of the burrowing beetle. They weren't sure but just to be safe we needed to conduct a study to ensure the burrowing beetle was properly protected. The study consisted of placing thousands of dixie cups being placed a few feet apart each buried about 2 inches deep with a piece of bacon placed at the bottom of the cup. Should we find any burrowing beetles in the bottom of the cup we were instructed to try and "lure" them away from our trucks paths.

No burying beetles were found but it cost the company a few grand to conduct the study.

[tator]

Horrific waste of bacon

[Harry Beanbag]

Snail Darters sounds like a gay midget porn movie title.

[olevetonahill]

I don't know about snail darters in particular but there are lots of things you can't do on your land even though it's your land.

But its MY land, No one should have the right to tell me what to do with it.

[okie52]

Probably should have found some feral hogs...well, unless they were protected.

[olevetonahill]

Snail Darters sounds like a gay midget porn movie title.

Heh

[KantoSooner]

Vet, I am not arrogating to me, personally, any power at all to tell you what you can and can't do. As a community/state/nation we do have an interest in what people do on their private land on the grounds that what you do on your ground seeps, runs off, blows over from or otherwise doesn't stay on your land.
If whatever it is really doesn't have an impact on somebody else's land, I would strongly suspect that no government agency or neighboring land owner would have an issue with it, either.

No one has complained about my recent jihad against moles in the yard. Or what has gone down in Rabbitene history as 'The Evening Of The Gun'. Or, in the more sketchy oral memory of the Armadillo People as 'The Big FlashBooom, The Long Darkness'. Not even a whisper of a complaint of my highly entertaining, though ecologically unsound, practice of capturing a 'bag o' snakes' and then throwing the bag into the field rat infested brush pile.

[olevetonahill]

Kanto, Its not so much MY land, Its the fact we are wasting Billions tryin to save a Little fish or some bird in Wash. State.

Whats the point? If they are that endangered odds are they aint gonna last anyway.

[Midtowner]

To a degree yes they are. Kinda like a HOMA telling some one they cant fly the flag.
Mind your own business, And stay off other peoples property

When you own land, you own it subject to the laws of the land. An HOA is a private agreement between you and the rest of the HOA that you take your land subject to certain restrictions which you agree to abide by. Those restrictions can certainly include flag flying. When you own any kind of land, all sorts of federal and state and local laws apply. If you live in city limits, local laws are likely so strict that they require the studs in your walls to be spaced at a certain distance and certain materials used for wiring and plumbing. You also aren't allowed to murder people on your land without a pretty good reason. You aren't allowed to pollute your land and you aren't allowed to kill endangered species on your land either.

[olevetonahill]

Like I said Matlock aint really about MY land so much as it is why is it any of YOUR business what I do down here?

Oh and why is thaat stupid lookin little fish so important?

[KantoSooner]

Ah, So, Vet,
Now we get a trickier issue: the amount of money evaluation and enforcement cost. I would hope the guys at the pointy end of the stick on this from the government side would exercise a little judgement and go after important stuff and ignore little stuff. Yes, I understand that our lawyers will cry out that that is random enforcement of the law. And it is. But if you don't allow for some injection of common sense, why even have people involved at all.

BTW, I had some bug killer I found in my grandfather's garage after he died. In an old brown glass jug. Undoubtedly illegal now. Poured it around the foundation of the house last year. We haven't had a bug in 9 months.

Probably shouldn't let kids or small dogs play in the yard for another year or two, though...

[diverdog]

Kanto ,Fan. Explain to me what gives YOU the right, Some Miles away from me , You know nothing about my land , Just what gives you the right to tell me what to do with my own land?
Dont want the Little fish to die out? Get some an put em on yer own land

Vet:

If the waters are navigable then you have no say. How would you feel if someone built a dam up river from you and proceeded to restrict your water supply?

[SoonerorLater]

But its MY land, No one should have the right to tell me what to do with it.

I'm not aware of any rights that allow people to do whatever they want on their land. Even though it's private property people can create collateral damage and unintended consequences to others. That is the supposed purpose of government to draw those lines where one guys fist ends and the other guy's nose starts.

[StoopTroup]

What if fermentation of the snail darter produced a nice hooch that didnt cause hang overs or alcoholism? I bet we would not only save them but we would kill people to make sure they survived.

[ouwasp]

EPA vs The Golden Spike
EPA vs Hoover Dam
EPA vs The Interstate Highway System (back at the start of it)

Wonder how those hypothetical cases would have played out? And would we, or future generations, have been better off if the EPA won those cases?

[FaninAma]

A little story that happened to me with enviros 3 years ago.

I had leased Indian land in SE Oklahoma. I was getting seismic permits for a seismic shoot we were running across a section of land. We had approvals from the BIA pending their environmental department in Muskogee. Our seismic trucks were using vibration techniques only...no dynamite. We received notification that we were to avoid unknown Indian burial grounds...Like how the hell am I going to do that?

Then the environmental agency notified us that we were possibly crossing the habitat of the burrowing beetle. They weren't sure but just to be safe we needed to conduct a study to ensure the burrowing beetle was properly protected. The study consisted of placing thousands of dixie cups being placed a few feet apart each buried about 2 inches deep with a piece of bacon placed at the bottom of the cup. Should we find any burrowing beetles in the bottom of the cup we were instructed to try and "lure" them away from our trucks paths.

No burying beetles were found but it cost the company a few grand to conduct the study.

How else are the beaurocrats in the EPA going to justify their jobs? The same thing happens in medicine all the time. Doctors and nurses now spend as much time filling out paperwork and making sure they meet regulatory agency guidelines as they do seeing patients.

[Midtowner]

EPA vs The Golden Spike
EPA vs Hoover Dam
EPA vs The Interstate Highway System (back at the start of it)

Wonder how those hypothetical cases would have played out? And would we, or future generations, have been better off if the EPA won those cases?

Are you saying that under current regulations, another Lake Meade would be impossible?

I'd be giving Vet a lot more credit than he deserves for possibly trying to go fishin' with the snail darter reference since that was a famous case where the presence of an endangered species kept the TVA from building a dam.

The end of the story though shows Congress specifically authorizing exemptions to the ESA and the dam got built and the snail darter in that area was wiped out.

[KantoSooner]

Yes, I remember weeping, sobbing uncontrollably as it were, when the snaildarter snuffed it.

<mind you, I was attempting to date a serious tree hugger/hippy chick at the time, so I really can't tease apart my environmental consciousness and frenzied desire to win her approval.>

[Fraggle145]

How many Millions of people have died since DDT was banned ?---- Should we just forget about that cost ?

Because insects have never evolved to become resistant to DDT. And we dont need Bald Eagles. Or whales. OR pretty much any top predators. **** em.

[REDREX]

Because insects have never evolved to become resistant to DDT. And we dont need Bald Eagles. Or whales. OR pretty much any top predators. **** em.----I wonder if the estimated 60 million people that have died from Malaria since DDT was banned would agree with you ?

[Fraggle145]

Like I said Matlock aint really about MY land so much as it is why is it any of YOUR business what I do down here?

Oh and why is thaat stupid lookin little fish so important?

It really isnt IMO unless you are doing something that affects me. For example, if you are dumping a bunch of stuff that gets in the groundwater that I am also drinking.

The reason why maintaining species is important is that increased biodiversity increases functionality. If you lose species you lose potential function. And this effects how the ecosystem potentially works. If you are reducing the functionality of the ecosystem with what you are doing on your land, then that affects me. And that's why IMO it should be at least studied before we do something that eliminates a given species.

[Fraggle145]

----I wonder if the estimated 60 million people that have died from Malaria since DDT was banned would agree with you ?

DDT wouldnt get rid of mosquitos or Malaria. It would slow it down for a few years until the mosquitos evolved a resistance to it and then Malaria would return to as prominent as it ever was, all while destroying the food chain from top to bottom. Which could change everything else about how those 60M people obtained resources etc...

Jeezus its all right there in a simple form in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT

[REDREX]

DDT wouldnt get rid of mosquitos or Malaria. It would slow it down for a few years until the mosquitos evolved a resistance to it and then Malaria would return to as prominent as it ever was, all while destroying the food chain from top to bottom. Which could change everything else about how those 60M people obtained resources etc...---Just keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better -----But most of the deaths are in Africa so screw'm right ?

[C&CDean]

But most of the deaths are in Africa so screw'm right ?

Well...yeah?

[KantoSooner]

Hey, Fraggle, do you know the current status of Bacillus Thuringiensis (Bt) bio agents against mosquitoes? It's always interested me as being both highly effective and utterly natural...and one to which the little mosqui's haven't evolved resistence even after millions of years.

[cleller]

I think a a preliminary rule should be that the animal in question must be at least at large as a horny toad before we really worry about.

I really miss horny toads. Kids today are missing out.

[Fraggle145]

---Just keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better -----But most of the deaths are in Africa so screw'm right ?

Evolution doesnt happen... just keep telling yourself that.

[Fraggle145]

Hey, Fraggle, do you know the current status of Bacillus Thuringiensis (Bt) bio agents against mosquitoes? It's always interested me as being both highly effective and utterly natural...and one to which the little mosqui's haven't evolved resistence even after millions of years.

Not sure... I'll look it up.

[Fraggle145]

I think a a preliminary rule should be that the animal in question must be at least at large as a horny toad before we really worry about.

I really miss horny toads. Kids today are missing out.

Depends on what it actually does in its ecosystem.

[C&CDean]

I think a a preliminary rule should be that the animal in question must be at least at large as a horny toad before we really worry about.

I really miss horny toads. Kids today are missing out.

One of the worst ***-beatings I ever gave another kid was over a horny toady. He stuck him up on wooden fence (the toad hung on with his nails) and then he started throwing a big old hunting knife at the toad. Got lucky on his second throw and nailed the toad impaling it on the fence. I beat that kid so bad my brother had to pull me off.

About 2 years later my brother shot the twisted little **** in the mouth with a pellet gun. Pellet went all the way up his cheek and into his inner ear. Dude was flopping on the ground like a fish. Karma. Of course the beating dad gave us was epic, but it was worth it.

[BigTip]

To answer the original question, I think the Earth will find a balance to any changes. If the the snail darter goes extinct, then whatever eats it, will learn to eat something else. There have been lots of species go extinct, a butt ton of them even before evil man came into the picture. But here the Earth is still humming along just fine.

To Vet being offended that he can't do whatever the frig he wants to do on his land...tough titties. There are many many examples of what you have been told that you can't do on your land that you are fine with. You can't have a meth lab. You can't even build a storage unit without a permit. So there is not much of an argument to support your desire to do "whatever you want with your land." Sorry.

[C&CDean]

To Vet being offended that he can't do whatever the frig he wants to do on his land...tough titties. There are many many examples of what you have been told that you can't do on your land that you are fine with. You can't have a meth lab. You can't even build a storage unit without a permit. So there is not much of an argument to support your desire to do "whatever you want with your land." Sorry.

Really? I guess that 60x60 shop I built complete with 100 amp service, 3 14x14 doors and a lift doesn't qualify - cause I never got a permit to build it. I also shoot high-powered rifles off my porch pretty much weekly. All directions of the compass. I take out whatever trees I choose, burn the **** outta the brush, and spray my pastures with Grazon. I am a little pissed I have to have an applicator's license to buy Grazon - but I have bought many gallons of the stuff at farm sales where one doesn't need a license. I shoot every damn skunk, possum, coon, coyote, and armadillo I see. I let every snake I see go. Why? Cause I can.

I think you're missing olevet's point completely. Yeah, he knows you ain't supposed to have a meth lab. DOH. What he doesn't want is people telling him he can't fly a flag, or build a road, or clear some brush, or paint his shack homoerotic pink. I'm fairly confident he's like me in that he ain't got no HOA, and sure as hell doesn't want one. He wants neighbors - and government folks - that mind their own business. Unless he's obviously breaking the law, leave him the **** alone. I think that's his point.

[olevetonahill]

To answer the original question, I think the Earth will find a balance to any changes. If the the snail darter goes extinct, then whatever eats it, will learn to eat something else. There have been lots of species go extinct, a butt ton of them even before evil man came into the picture. But here the Earth is still humming along just fine.

To Vet being offended that he can't do whatever the frig he wants to do on his land...tough titties. There are many many examples of what you have been told that you can't do on your land that you are fine with. You can't have a meth lab. You can't even build a storage unit without a permit. So there is not much of an argument to support your desire to do "whatever you want with your land." Sorry.

BS, I can to have a Meth lab if I want, Just dont get caught, Cept I aint got any use fer those tweakers so Why would I?

Where ya get that I cant build a Storage building?
Boy Im guessin you live in New York city or some such suck *** place

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Is it really any great loss to us if the "Snail Darter" (sompun I aint ever seen by the way) Disappears from the world? The Spotted Owl?
Critters been becoming extinct forever and we get along just fine with out em


Why should we spend Billions on studies? Just build our stuff and to hell with the weird slugs and stuff.With few exceptions, we would be a heckuva lot better off without the govt. control extremists

[REDREX]

Evolution doesnt happen... just keep telling yourself that.---- Wow what a comeback

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I think a a preliminary rule should be that the animal in question must be at least at large as a horny toad before we really worry about.

I really miss horny toads. Kids today are missing out.Cats got 'em all?

[cleller]

Cats got 'em all?

I read that red fire ants have killed off "harvester ants", which is what horny toads mostly ate.

Quail (and Meadowlarks) are also disappearing fast. They were all over when I was a kid, but there are few around here now. They live off weed seeds, so the spread of bermuda grass hurts them. I mow "quail trails" between pastures and tree lines to help attract or retain them. Seems to have helped.

[ouwasp]

Well, I know a highway to the west of my town had a lengthy delay due to a study conducted regarding the "Prairie Mole Cricket"... really? A cricket? How many taxpayer $$ were spent studying this cricket's biosphere?

[BigTip]

Where ya get that I cant build a Storage building?
Boy Im guessin you live in New York city or some such suck *** place

Good guess. But no, I am in Austin. I forget that the whole world is not full of meddling leftist idiots like Austin's government is. The storage shed was only an example of something, even something very small, being not allowed by the government.



I get the desire to have freedom to do with your land what you want. I agree. To a point, and y'all know there is a point when you can't do whatever you want on your own land.

[SCOUT]

It really isnt IMO unless you are doing something that affects me. For example, if you are dumping a bunch of stuff that gets in the groundwater that I am also drinking.

The reason why maintaining species is important is that increased biodiversity increases functionality. If you lose species you lose potential function. And this effects how the ecosystem potentially works. If you are reducing the functionality of the ecosystem with what you are doing on your land, then that affects me. And that's why IMO it should be at least studied before we do something that eliminates a given species.
The decrease in species has been an actual function of evolution for... well, a long time. Is pretending to be the evolutionary architect really a good idea?

[C&CDean]

I read that red fire ants have killed off "harvester ants", which is what horny toads mostly ate.

Quail (and Meadowlarks) are also disappearing fast. They were all over when I was a kid, but there are few around here now. They live off weed seeds, so the spread of bermuda grass hurts them. I mow "quail trails" between pastures and tree lines to help attract or retain them. Seems to have helped.

Dang, no crap. When I bought the Deanarosa it was covered in rag/broom and a bunch of other weeds. I had quail everywhere. Then, I went into the cattle business. Sprayed the weeds, cleared the brush, etc., and I haven't seen a quail out here for about 4 years now. The only way I solace myself is to go "well, I'm in the cattle/hay business, not the quail business." My turkey population has dropped dramatically too, however, the deer are everywhere. It helps a little, but it's still depressing as hell.

[cleller]

Dang, no crap. When I bought the Deanarosa it was covered in rag/broom and a bunch of other weeds. I had quail everywhere. Then, I went into the cattle business. Sprayed the weeds, cleared the brush, etc., and I haven't seen a quail out here for about 4 years now. The only way I solace myself is to go "well, I'm in the cattle/hay business, not the quail business." My turkey population has dropped dramatically too, however, the deer are everywhere. It helps a little, but it's still depressing as hell.

OSU actually has some great info about the quail situation. I've resolved to only spray a few areas of the front 80 every couple of years. The back 80 I never spray. I try to let areas grow up, and stay kindy weedy every year, hoping it will help, but its just a drop in the bucket. Now when I hear the bob-white call in the spring, I wonder how much longer it will be around. Do have lots of turkeys.

Another thing I see now that I did not years ago are bobcats. Those have to be tough on quail, but are sure fun to see.

[XingTheRubicon]

Really? I guess that 60x60 shop I built complete with 100 amp service, 3 14x14 doors and a lift doesn't qualify - cause I never got a permit to build it. I also shoot high-powered rifles off my porch pretty much weekly. All directions of the compass. I take out whatever trees I choose, burn the **** outta the brush, and spray my pastures with Grazon. I am a little pissed I have to have an applicator's license to buy Grazon - but I have bought many gallons of the stuff at farm sales where one doesn't need a license. I shoot every damn skunk, possum, coon, coyote, and armadillo I see. I let every snake I see go. Why? Cause I can.

I think you're missing olevet's point completely. Yeah, he knows you ain't supposed to have a meth lab. DOH. What he doesn't want is people telling him he can't fly a flag, or build a road, or clear some brush, or paint his shack homoerotic pink. I'm fairly confident he's like me in that he ain't got no HOA, and sure as hell doesn't want one. He wants neighbors - and government folks - that mind their own business. Unless he's obviously breaking the law, leave him the **** alone. I think that's his point.

How do we know you're not just saying that, do you have any pictures....

[C&CDean]

How do we know you're not just saying that, do you have any pictures....

Heh. If I could remember how to post them, I'd take one of the lead sled on the patio table and the targets at 100 and 200 yards. Right now I have a Remington AR in the sled. Ain't shooting it much cause the damn ammo went so high.

Shot at a crow and missed a while ago with a .22 mag. Not high-powered, but hell on crows...if you hit the ****ing things.

[diverdog]

OSU actually has some great info about the quail situation. I've resolved to only spray a few areas of the front 80 every couple of years. The back 80 I never spray. I try to let areas grow up, and stay kindy weedy every year, hoping it will help, but its just a drop in the bucket. Now when I hear the bob-white call in the spring, I wonder how much longer it will be around. Do have lots of turkeys.

Another thing I see now that I did not years ago are bobcats. Those have to be tough on quail, but are sure fun to see.

i use to recieve a lot of stuff on quail. The biggest issues are loss of edge habitat (think fence rows) habitat fragmentation, ferel cats, spraying and certain other ag practices. Ferel cats are a huge issue. Shoot them on sight.

contact Quail Unlimited. They can help you.

[Fraggle145]

The decrease in species has been an actual function of evolution for... well, a long time. Is pretending to be the evolutionary architect really a good idea?

Yes it has. You are only arguing the architect angle in one direction though... Arent you also being an evolutionary architect if you were to cause species to go extinct prematurely?

[Fraggle145]

---- Wow what a comeback

The way you are arguing shows that you know nothing about the subject matter. Just saying that DDT would have saved 60M people isnt accurate. You are assuming that DDT would be 100% effective and then remain effective over time. That simply isnt the case. Mosquitos in Africa are already much more resistant to DDT just because of its previous use in those countries. And more exposure would just select for those mosquitos that are resistant. And eventually DDT wouldnt work any more. At all.

[olevetonahill]

Hey Fraggle as late as the Mid 60s the U.S. Military issued DDT to the troops for Lice control.

[Fraggle145]

Hey Fraggle as late as the Mid 60s the U.S. Military issued DDT to the troops for Lice control.

I'm not saying it isnt effective as an pesticide. I'm saying that over time it loses its effectiveness because insects become resistant. So while it would be an effective immediate control for Malaria it isnt a long term solution. Especially because many mosquitos in Africa are already more resistant than your average mosquito. Hence, its benefits vs. its costs to the environment and to the people that are would potentially be affected by its usage dont really add up. As for its use in the 60s, there are some possible effects of it and other pesticides like it on humans such as increased incidence of diabetes, but a lot of those side-effects were discovered more recently.

[REDREX]

The way you are arguing shows that you know nothing about the subject matter. Just saying that DDT would have saved 60M people isnt accurate. You are assuming that DDT would be 100% effective and then remain effective over time. That simply isnt the case. Mosquitos in Africa are already much more resistant to DDT just because of its previous use in those countries. And more exposure would just select for those mosquitos that are resistant. And eventually DDT wouldnt work any more. At all.--- Thank you for the lesson on Mosquito evolution-----The facts are that death's increase by a factor of over 1000 when DDT was banned----Sorry if that is an inconvenient truth

[FirstandGoal]

Meh, I could care less if some stupid *** fish dies.

Someone please find a way to get rid of spiders and I will be eternally grateful.

[Fraggle145]

--- Thank you for the lesson on Mosquito evolution-----The facts are that death's increase by a factor of over 1000 when DDT was banned----Sorry if that is an inconvenient truth

Link? Got any projections over time of its predicted effectiveness?

[olevetonahill]

I'm not saying it isnt effective as an pesticide. I'm saying that over time it loses its effectiveness because insects become resistant. So while it would be an effective immediate control for Malaria it isnt a long term solution. Especially because many mosquitos in Africa are already more resistant than your average mosquito. Hence, its benefits vs. its costs to the environment and to the people that are would potentially be affected by its usage dont really add up. As for its use in the 60s, there are some possible effects of it and other pesticides like it on humans such as increased incidence of diabetes, but a lot of those side-effects were discovered more recently.

Bro, I wernt arguing For or against, Was just commenting on it is all.
The Military actually had the soldiers use it like a Body powder

[REDREX]

Link? Got any projections over time of its predicted effectiveness?---Go prove me wrong

[Fraggle145]

---Go prove me wrong

You mean that the data to support your 60M claim doesnt exist and you were blowing smoke out your ***? Gotcha.

[REDREX]

You mean that the data to support your 60M claim doesnt exist and you were blowing smoke out your ***? Gotcha.----
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/655-000-malaria-deaths-2010-africa-accounted-91-percent-deaths-article-1.991359 ----Grow up and stop believing everything the Greenies say

[Harry Beanbag]

You mean that the data to support your 60M claim doesnt exist and you were blowing smoke out your ***? Gotcha.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259

[cleller]

If the government ever gets down to protecting ticks, it is time to rise up.

I don't care what the environmental impact is -- starving guinea fowl populations, too many healthy dogs and deer -- I'd wipe ticks off the face of the earth if I had the power.

[diverdog]

----
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/655-000-malaria-deaths-2010-africa-accounted-91-percent-deaths-article-1.991359 ----Grow up and stop believing everything the Greenies say

You do know they use DDT in that part of the world....right?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ddt-use-to-combat-malaria

Most of the increases in deaths are because the population in that part of the world has exploded.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

If the government ever gets down to protecting ticks, it is time to rise up.

I don't care what the environmental impact is -- starving guinea fowl populations, too many healthy dogs and deer -- I'd wipe ticks off the face of the earth if I had the power.I would add mosquitos, tsetse flies, wasps, jelly fish and Poisonous snakes. There are others.

Bees and gators have some redeeming features.

[diverdog]

I would add mosquitos, tsetse flies, wasps, jelly fish and Poisonous snakes. There are others.

Bees and gators have some redeeming features.

So do poisonous snakes and jelly fish.

[REDREX]

You do know they use DDT in that part of the world....right?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ddt-use-to-combat-malaria

Most of the increases in deaths are because the population in that part of the world has exploded.---Yes I know they started using it again in some areas------The deaths are down from where they were in the mid to late 70's and 80's

[REDREX]

You mean that the data to support your 60M claim doesnt exist and you were blowing smoke out your ***? Gotcha.----Still waiting for your proof that I am wrong-----Looks like you were talking out your ***------Maybe you should gather a few facts before you start mouthing off

[Fraggle145]

Maybe you should blow me? The article you linked talked about how effective mosquito netting was at preventing malaria.

Furthermore you never addressed DD's post about the population exploding in that part of the world. And that all of the experts that are cited in that article all said DDT should be the last line of defense - not the first.

And you still havent addressed how DDT has negative effects directly on human health. Nor have you said anything at all about how it affects ecosystems.

Harry's article cited 50M as the number, not 60M and I am still looking more into the facts of that article since I've never heard of that website before and it comes off as biased politically.

[StoopTroup]

I hear you can brush your teeth with DDT.

[Fraggle145]

Harry's article cited 50M as the number, not 60M and I am still looking more into the facts of that article since I've never heard of that website before and it comes off as biased politically.

For example some of the facts in Harry's article dont seem to match up with this: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp.asp?id=81&tid=20

[REDREX]

Maybe you should blow me? The article you linked talked about how effective mosquito netting was at preventing malaria.

Furthermore you never addressed DD's post about the population exploding in that part of the world. And that all of the experts that are cited in that article all said DDT should be the last line of defense - not the first.

And you still havent addressed how DDT has negative effects directly on human health. Nor have you said anything at all about how it affects ecosystems.

Harry's article cited 50M as the number, not 60M and I am still looking more into the facts of that article since I've never heard of that website before and it comes off as biased politically.---It was also an estimate----so let's say give or take 10 million human lives---This is the same discussion that I heard back in Law School in a toxic torts class in the 80's----Grow up or go **** yourself

[diverdog]

---It was also an estimate----so let's say give or take 10 million human lives---This is the same discussion that I heard back in Law School in a toxic torts class in the 80's----Grow up or go **** yourself

Wow, I didn't know you had a law degree. Good for you.

Red, I do not think there is any way you can factually say that if we continued spraying those 50 million people would be alive. Africa in particular is a mess. The population in sub-sahara Africa has exploded. Medical care is lacking, it is remote, extremely poor and some of the land use is condusive to breeding more mosquitos.

I cannot argue that DDT is not effective in killing mosquito's. Because it is. The problem is that we do not fully understand its effects at higher doses over prolong periods of time on humans. Nor do we understand its effects on thinning egg shells. Are the risk/rewards such that we should use it? I will leave that up to the scientist. What I do know is that no one really cars about that part of the world and I suspect if malaria doesn't kill them then aids will. The place is almost hopeless as sad as that is to say.

[Fraggle145]

He's high-fallutin'.

[olevetonahill]

He's high-fallutin'.

Kinda Like that other one? :tennis:

[Fraggle145]

Kinda Like that other one? :tennis:

I think they take a class for it in law school...

[olevetonahill]

I think they take a class for it in law school...

1st year course, *******ology.

[C&CDean]

1st year course, *******ology.

The only good ones fail this course.

[olevetonahill]

The only good ones fail this course.

Heh.

[Fraggle145]

1st year course, *******ology.
Heh. Nice.