GOP senators caving on illegal immigration

[okie52]

Bipartisan group of key Senators set to announce their plan to overhaul US immigration laws

01-28-2013 07:38 AM CST |By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press

FILE - In this Oct. 5, 2011 file photo, Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., speaks at the Newseum in Washington. In an opinion piece published Sunday Jan. 27, 2013 in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, Rubio wrote that the existing system amounts to "de facto amnesty," and he called for "commonsense reform." (AP Photo/Haraz N. Ghanbari, File)
WASHINGTON (Associated Press) --
A bipartisan group of leading senators has reached agreement on the principles for a sweeping overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, including a path to citizenship for the 11 million illegal immigrants already in this country.

The deal, to be announced at a news conference Monday, also covers border security, non-citizen or "guest" workers and employer verification of immigration status.

Although thorny details remain to be negotiated and success is far from certain _ the legislation could run into trouble in the Republican-controlled House _ the development heralds the start of what could be the most significant effort in years toward overhauling the nation's inefficient patchwork of immigration laws.

President Barack Obama also is committed to enacting comprehensive immigration legislation and will travel to Nevada on Tuesday to lay out his vision, which is expected to overlap in important ways with the Senate effort.




The eight senators expected to endorse the new principles Monday are Democrats Charles Schumer of New York, Dick Durbin of Illinois, Robert Menendez of New Jersey and Michael Bennet of Colorado; and Republicans John McCain of Arizona, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Marco Rubio of Florida and Jeff Flake of Arizona.

Several of these lawmakers have worked for years on the issue. McCain collaborated with the late Democratic Sen. Edward M. Kennedy on comprehensive immigration legislation pushed by then-President George W. Bush in 2007, only to see it collapse in the Senate when it couldn't get enough GOP support.

Now, with some Republicans chastened by the November elections which demonstrated the importance of Latino voters and their increasing commitment to Democrats, some in the GOP say this time will be different.

"What's changed, honestly, is that there is a new, I think, appreciation on both sides of the aisle _ including maybe more importantly on the Republican side of the aisle _ that we have to enact a comprehensive immigration reform bill," McCain said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."

"I think the time is right," McCain said.

The group claims a notable newcomer in Rubio, a potential 2016 presidential candidate whose conservative bona fides may help smooth the way for support among conservatives wary of anything that smacks of amnesty. In an opinion piece published Sunday in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, Rubio wrote that the existing system amounts to "de facto amnesty," and he called for "commonsense reform."

According to documents obtained by The Associated Press, the senators will call for accomplishing four goals:

_Creating a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already here, contingent upon securing the border and better tracking of people here on visas.

_Reforming the legal immigration system, including awarding green cards to immigrants who obtain advanced degrees in science, math, technology or engineering from an American university.

_Creating an effective employment verification system to ensure that employers do not hire illegal immigrants.

_Allowing more low-skill workers into the country and allowing employers to hire immigrants if they can demonstrate they couldn't recruit a U.S. citizen; and establishing an agricultural worker program.

The principles being released Monday are outlined on just over four pages, leaving plenty of details left to fill in. What the senators do call for is similar to Obama's goals and some past efforts by Democrats and Republicans, since there's wide agreement in identifying problems with the current immigration system. The most difficult disagreement is likely to arise over how to accomplish the path to citizenship.

In order to satisfy the concerns of Rubio and other Republicans, the senators are calling for the completion of steps on border security and oversight of those here on visas before taking major steps forward on the path to citizenship.

Even then, those here illegally would have to qualify for a "probationary legal status" that would allow them to live and work here _ but not qualify for federal benefits _ before being able to apply for permanent residency. Once they are allowed to apply they would do so behind everyone else already in line for a green card within the current immigration system.

That could be a highly cumbersome process, but how to make it more workable is being left to future negotiations. The senators envision a more streamlined process toward citizenship for immigrants brought here as children by their parents, and for agricultural workers.

The American Civil Liberties Union said in a statement that the framework agreed on by the senators could provide important protections for illegal immigrants who are exploited by employers and live in "constant fear" over their immigration status.

But the ACLU took issue with the proposal to require employers to use an electronic employment-verification system, calling it "a thinly disguised national ID requirement" that would undermine employees' privacy and lead to discrimination against those "who look or sound `foreign.'"

Such legislation could also face long odds in the House, which is dominated by conservative Republicans and which has shown little interest in immigration reform.

The debate will play out at the start of Obama's second term, as he aims to spend the political capital afforded him by his re-election victory on an issue that has eluded past presidents and stymied him during his first term despite his promises to the Latino community to act.

"As the president has made clear for some time, immigration reform is an important priority and he is pleased that progress is being made with bipartisan support," a White House spokesman, Clark Stevens, said in a statement. "At the same time, he will not be satisfied until there is meaningful reform and he will continue to urge Congress to act until that is achieved."

For Republicans, the November elections were a stark schooling on the importance of Latino voters, who voted for Obama over Republican Mitt Romney 71 percent to 27 percent, helping ensure Obama's victory. That led some Republican leaders to conclude that supporting immigration reform with a path to citizenship has become a political imperative.


.

[FaninAma]

The larger the latino population grows the less clout blacks will have economically and politically. There are already signs of friction in California as latinos move into traditionally black communties like Compton.

[Soonerjeepman]

unfortunate....

and in my school's area, traditional "black areas" are now mixed with Mexicans as well.

[Curly Bill]

I don't know a great deal about these new proposals, supposedly which are just sort of an outline right now, but the status quo definitely sucks.

[Midtowner]

I'm disappointed to see that increased border security isn't being discussed.

[okie52]

I'm disappointed to see that increased border security isn't being discussed.

It was part of their proposal...but nobody knows what that means yet.

[Midtowner]

It was part of their proposal...but nobody knows what that means yet.

I'm fine with assimilating those who are here, but any discussion needs to start with making illegal immigration and survival here next to impossible.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Y'all just worry about the wrong things.

[KABOOKIE]

Y'all just worry about the wrong things.

Why not annex Mexico.

[Curly Bill]

Why not annex Mexico.

Who wants it?

[okie52]

Why not annex Mexico.

We're doing it with the people already...it would be nice to at least get the land too.

[badger]

Y'all just worry about the wrong things.

The only concern I see is national security and security in general. The quality of living and jobs issues are starting to fade as there's not tons of job incentive to cross the border anymore and there's an emerging middle class in Mexico, one that reportedly is fond of buying "Made in USA" products. (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-09-09/world/35494795_1_mexico-city-wal-mart-trade-mission)

[okie52]

I'm fine with assimilating those who are here, but any discussion needs to start with making illegal immigration and survival here next to impossible.

The ACLU already is looking at the everify system and possibly challenge it in the courts. If you take away the country's ability to verify citizenship I don't see how the problem will ever be solved although securing the border would be a big step in the right direction.

[Midtowner]

The ACLU already is looking at the everify system and possibly challenge it in the courts. If you take away the country's ability to verify citizenship I don't see how the problem will ever be solved although securing the border would be a big step in the right direction.

I don't know what the ACLU's position is, but if it's that the states don't have the power to prescribe e-verify or otherwise dabble in immigration-related subject matter, I would tend to agree with that and for the most part, that was cleared up in Arizona vs. United States a couple of years ago. If it's the ACLU's position that the federal government lacks the power to implement and prescribe the use of e-verify, I'd say they're way off base.

The feds have pretty much absolute discretion in the area of immigration and the states' powers are very limited.

[okie52]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/28/politics/immigration-plan-framework/index.html


This is a copy of the senate plan...5 pages. Border security is shown as a priority.

Mid-The SC upheld AZ's right to punish employers that hired illegals.

[Fraggle145]

_Reforming the legal immigration system, including awarding green cards to immigrants who obtain advanced degrees in science, math, technology or engineering from an American university.

This is smart. We are educating all the worlds higher educated right now. Especially the Chinese.

[rock on sooner]

It appears as though somebody opened a can of common sense and
mixed it in the water, then fed it to the eight Senators. All of the most
needed items are in the framework...border security, a path, retain high
achievers, drop the hammer on employers that hire illegals...etc. I think
every poster on the board has, at one time or another, mentioned those
things as necessary. Let's hope that the framework goes forward.

[okie52]

Watching Shumer, McCain, Durbin, et al grovel on TV in announcing their "bill". Disgusting.

[okie52]

This is smart. We are educating all the worlds higher educated right now. Especially the Chinese.

These are the immigrants we should be after...

[okie52]

It appears as though somebody opened a can of common sense and
mixed it in the water, then fed it to the eight Senators. All of the most
needed items are in the framework...border security, a path, retain high
achievers, drop the hammer on employers that hire illegals...etc. I think
every poster on the board has, at one time or another, mentioned those
things as necessary. Let's hope that the framework goes forward.

You never heard me mention a path to citizenship...unless you are talking about I35 south and Mexican citizenship (oh..and catapults).

[FaninAma]

We're doing it with the people already...it would be nice to at least get the land too.
And their natural resources and their beaches. I blame Buchanan.

[okie52]

And their natural resources and their beaches. I blame Buchanan.

Exactly.

Buchanan was to blame?...I guess I missed it.

[rock on sooner]

You never heard me mention a path to citizenship...unless you are talking about I35 south and Mexican citizenship (oh..and catapults).

heh, I do remember the catapults...something about the direction and
who was manning them...

[FaninAma]

Exactly.

Buchanan was to blame?...I guess I missed it.

Actually I was off by a few years. Polk was the President who didn't go aheead and take over all of Mexico. So he's to blame.

[KantoSooner]

And the Mexicans were already resigned to the fact that they'd have to surrender Baja as well. Cabo would have been 'Southern California'.
And Tijuana would have been in America!

Caramba!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

On the policy side, the RINO's have left me...time for a 3rd party deeply conservative party to represent us conservatives. This is a sad cave...

[okie52]

On the policy side, the RINO's have left me...time for a 3rd party deeply conservative party to represent us conservatives. This is a sad cave...

It's not only a sad cave it's a stupid one....these new "citizens" will vote over over 2-1 for dems.

I'll rid myself of the pubs (as much as I can) if the house pubs play doormat, too. Hard to find another place to go in OK though. **** nationally Gary Johnson was worse than about any pub on illegal invaders. He was an open borders guy.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

From the Senators' blueprint it states:


- Individuals who are present without lawful status - not including people within the two categories identified below - will only receive a green card after every individual who is already waiting in line for a green card, at the time this legislation is enacted, has received their green card. Our purpose is to ensure that no one who has violated America's immigration laws will receive preferential treatment as they relate to those individuals who have complied with the law.

Now I have particular personal interest in this. I have a sister-in-law who has been waiting in line since 1997 -- waiting fifteen years. When we applied for her, the cutoff date was 1990 -- that is, those who had been in line since 1990 were eligible for a green card. The category is unmarried son or daughter of a permanent resident who is over 21 years old: Category F2B. At the time we applied, she was a teenage minor whose parents received green cards, but their minor children did not (Category F2A). When she turned 21, the process kicked her into Category F2B.

As you can see below, the cutoff date for Category F2B, Mexico, is 1992. This date has moved only 2 years in the last 15 years. At this rate, she will be eligible for a green card in about 40 more years -- waiting in line for a grand total of 15 + 40 = 55 years.

During this 55 year period, she is not legally allowed to visit the United States under a tourist visa - even if we posted a bond to assure of her return to Mexico.

If she were Canadian, she could visit the U.S. at any time, without a visa. And if she were a half-way funny Canadian, she could get a permit to work on SNL without waiting in line.

I'm hoping the legislation makes the line move faster.

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/sanjoaquinsooner/Visa-Bulletin-Feb-2013-Family_zpsd9568a21.jpg

[StoopTroup]

NAFTA is going to fix it all long before Congress has to pass new legislation. Surely we should begin to see some results soon. :D

[KantoSooner]

SJS, you raise an important point. One reason we have so many illegals here in the first place is that the current 'system' doesn't work. You can try and play by the rules, but you're something of a fool if you do because you'll be long dead before any decision is reached.

If we can do the e-verify thing to dry up illegal jobs, if we can provide some sort of guest/temporary worker thing to allow people who want, for instance, to roof houses in Phoenix in the summertime and pick lettuce in Cali and then GO HOME for the winter (as was a tradition for well over a century) and if we can finally get the cattle prods out and urge the incompetent asswipes in INS to make decisions on citizenship applications in a timely manner...
Then this thing has a chance to be better than what we've got now.
If we continue our grand tradition of making laws and then ignoring the need for funding enforcement, it'll turn into another in a long litany of wastes of time.

[okie52]

Obama launches push for immigration overhaul; proposals will mirror separate Senate effort


01-29-2013 10:06 AM CST |By JULIE PACE, AP White House Correspondent



WASHINGTON (Associated Press) --
Seeking swift action on immigration, President Barack Obama on Tuesday will try to rally public support behind his proposals for giving millions of illegal immigrants a pathway to citizenship, as well as making improvements to the legal immigration system and border security.

The president will launch his push in a campaign-style event in Las Vegas, a day after a bipartisan group of senators unveiled their own plan for addressing an issue that has languished in Washington for years.

Administration officials said Obama would largely endorse the senators' efforts, though immigration advocates said they expected the president's own proposals to be more progressive than the Senate group's plan, including a faster pathway to citizenship.

The simultaneous immigration campaigns were spurred by the November presidential election, in which Obama won an overwhelming majority of Hispanic voters. The results caused Republican lawmakers who had previously opposed immigration reform to reconsider in order to rebuild the party's reputation among Hispanics, an increasingly powerful political force.




Most of the recommendations Obama will make Tuesday are not new. He outlined an immigration blueprint in May 2011 but exerted little political capital to get it passed by Congress, to the disappointment of many Hispanics.

Obama "will certainly note today the promising signs we've seen in Congress, most specifically the bipartisan principles put together by the group of senators that mirror his own principles," White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters aboard Air Force One en route to Nevada. "That is cause for hope. And what you'll hear from the president today is how we need to take these initial positive steps and continue to move forward so that actual legislation is produced."

The president was to make his pitch in Nevada, a political battleground he carried in November, in large part because of support from Hispanics in the state.

Nationally, Obama won 71 percent of the Hispanic vote, giving him a key advantage over Republican rival Mitt Romney.

Administration officials said the president would bolster his 2011 immigration blueprint with some fresh details. His original plan centered on four key areas: a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S., improved border security, an overhaul of the legal immigration system, and an easier process for businesses to verify the legal status of workers.

Administration officials said they were encouraged to see the Senate backing the same broad principles. In part because of the fast action on Capitol Hill, Obama does not currently plan to send lawmakers formal immigration legislation.

However, officials said the White House does have legislation drafted and could fall back on it should the Senate process stall. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to discuss internal strategy.

Carney said the president believes the package also should include recognition of gay couples where one partner is American and another is not.

"The president has long believed that Americans with same-sex partners from other countries should not be faced with the painful choice between staying with the person they love or staying in the country they love," Carney said.

Sen. John McCain called the issue a "red flag" in an interview Tuesday on "CBS This Morning."

The Arizona Republican also said he didn't think the issue was of "paramount importance at this time."

"We'll have to look at it," McCain said. But he added that the highest priority is finding a "broad consensus" behind the immigration bill already being planned. He said the country must do something about 11 million people "living in the shadows."

Obama's previous proposals for creating a pathway to citizenship required those already in the U.S. illegally to register with the government and submit to security checks; pay registration fees, a series of fines and back taxes; and learn English. After eight years, individuals would be allowed to become legal permanent residents and could eventually become citizens five years later.

The Senate group's pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants already in the U.S. would be contingent upon securing the border and improving tracking of people in the U.S. on visas. Linking citizenship to border security could become a sticking point between the White House and lawmakers.

The Senate framework would also require those here illegally to pass background checks and pay fines and taxes in order to qualify for a "probationary legal status" that would allow them to live and work here _ but not qualify for federal benefits _ before being able to apply for permanent residency, a critical step toward citizenship. Once they are allowed to apply they would do so behind everyone else already waiting for a green card within the current immigration system.

Passage of legislation by the full Democratic-controlled Senate is far from assured, but the tallest hurdle could come in the House, which is dominated by conservative Republicans who've shown little interest in immigration reform.

The senators involved in formulating the immigration proposals, in addition to McCain, are Democrats Charles Schumer of New York, Dick Durbin of Illinois, Robert Menendez of New Jersey and Michael Bennet of Colorado; and Republicans Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Marco Rubio of Florida and Jeff Flake of Arizona.

Several of these lawmakers have worked for years on the issue. McCain collaborated with the late Democratic Sen. Edward M. Kennedy on comprehensive immigration legislation pushed by then-President George W. Bush in 2007, only to see it collapse in the Senate when it couldn't get enough GOP support.


.

[Soonerjeepman]

seems the benefit (tax income) won't outweigh the cost (entitlements)...hmmm...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/28/cost-giving-illegal-immigrants-path-to-citizenship-could-outweigh-fiscal/

[okie52]

seems the benefit (tax income) won't outweigh the cost (entitlements)...hmmm...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/28/cost-giving-illegal-immigrants-path-to-citizenship-could-outweigh-fiscal/

Citizenship for illegals will definitely be another financial burden for the current American taxpayers.

[okie52]

Obama groveling on TV in support of illegals.

[okie52]

6 Simple Questions on Immigration
9:37 PM 01/27/2013



To all my respectable friends: A big push for “comprehensive immigration reform”–meaning some combination of an amnesty plus some border-securing (“enforcement”) measures–begins this week. It will be portrayed in the MSM as a debate between rational bipartisan problem solvers and retrograde bigots. But it’s not that easy! Here are six questions to think about:

1. Why won’t this new reform be a repeat of the 1986 reform, when the amnesty provisions were implemented but the enforcement half was blocked by ACLU-style lawsuits and bureaucratic weakness? The result was a broken border and the approximately 11 million new unauthorized immigrants we’re talking about giving amnesty to today. (If it wouldn’t bother you if an Obama amnesty attracted millions of new unauthorized immigrants, then let’s be open about that.)

2. After this new reform is passed, some people will sneak into the country illegally. What happens to them? Won’t the same arguments–the need to bring people “out of the shadows,” the need not to offend Latino voters, etc.–produce yet another amnesty for them down the road? Don’t potential future border-crossers realize this?

3. What about the wages of unskilled workers? Unskilled workers have gotten the short end of the economy of recent decades. Many of the jobs they used to do are now done by cheaper workers overseas. Luckily there are still some unskilled jobs that have to be done in the U.S. Are we now importing desperate unskilled foreigners to do those jobs too? Doesn’t the law of supply and demand say this will drive wages for basic work down, at least a bit? Low-income workers are the people Democrats claim to care the most about. Will the immigration reform Dems champion force them to take yet another hit?

4. Are we really that good at assimilating? Yes, American culture is powerful. But now there is an entrenched lobby for bilingual education, and identity politics curricula that teach young people they’re right to resist assimilation. Formal and informal race preferences reward Americans for maintaining separate ethnic identies. And then there’s Univision, which would go out of business if too many people spoke the common language.

5. Isn’t Mexico special? Other immigrants had to cross oceans and cut ties to get here–and many still do. But half of our new unauthorized immigrants come from a single country a day’s drive away–a nation with a not-implausible claim to much of our Southwestern territory. The “border” may mean something else to them than it does to us, or to other immigrants. Everywhere else in the world this is a recipe for turmoil. Why are we immune?

6. Why not “Enforcement First … Amnesty Second”? Preventing unathorized immigration–i.e. having a working border–isn’t easy. We’ve made strides, and immigration flows have slowed significantly. But we still have ways to go –only a minority of employers use the E-Verify system, for example–and we don’t know if the unauthorized flow will resume if the economy, particularly the construction industry, picks up. Why not wait and find out if enforcment measures (including any new ones that would be part of “comprehensive” reform) work–and then, if they do, go ahead give the undocumented the legal status that would ordinarily encourage more uncontrolled border-jumping?

It’s not like there won’t be political pressure for amnesty in the future.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/27/6-simple-questions-on-immigration/#ixzz2JPHHrOZv

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[KantoSooner]

Okay, I'm game to start with E-verify as a legal requirement. You want to hire a guy, you E-verify him. If he passes, fine, you've done your part as a law abiding employer. Not overly burdensome.
If you don't, the President of your company goes to jail. Let's say a week for every violation. No biggie, but enough to, how do we say....'encourage' compliance.
That will go a long way to drying up jobs, and thus incentive, for illegals.
At the same time, we open up a guest worker pass system so you don't crush the construction business or agriculture.

After that, we can let the militia whack jobs go play army soldier on the border. Give 'em surplus claymores. With any luck, they'll read the 'This Side Toward Enemy' thing wrong and we can be done wth that problem, too.

[Midtowner]

After that, we can let the militia whack jobs go play army soldier on the border. Give 'em surplus claymores. With any luck, they'll read the 'This Side Toward Enemy' thing wrong and we can be done wth that problem, too.

Doncha remember when this issue came to Congress back in the Bush years? The righties were so ginned up that they were sending out volunteer border patrols. Of course soon as Hannity, et al moved on, so did they. I'll bet the guys in charge of things like the Tea Party Express are constantly amazed at just how totally folks will fall for propaganda.

[Midtowner]

768h3Tz4Qik

[Turd_Ferguson]

After that, we can let the militia whack jobs go play army soldier on the border. Give 'em surplus claymores. With any luck, they'll read the 'This Side Toward Enemy' thing wrong and we can be done wth that problem, too.

Sweet...wishing death on Americans...wow

[Turd_Ferguson]

Doncha remember when this issue came to Congress back in the Bush years? The righties were so ginned up that they were sending out volunteer border patrols. Of course soon as Hannity, et al moved on, so did they. I'll bet the guys in charge of things like the Tea Party Express are constantly amazed at just how totally folks will fall for propaganda.

I'm thinking your post are kind of moot around here since you think a dogs life is more important than a 7 week old baby(in the womb, just so Tator doesn't get confused)...just say'n.

[okie52]

Okay, I'm game to start with E-verify as a legal requirement. You want to hire a guy, you E-verify him. If he passes, fine, you've done your part as a law abiding employer. Not overly burdensome.
If you don't, the President of your company goes to jail. Let's say a week for every violation. No biggie, but enough to, how do we say....'encourage' compliance.
That will go a long way to drying up jobs, and thus incentive, for illegals.
At the same time, we open up a guest worker pass system so you don't crush the construction business or agriculture.

After that, we can let the militia whack jobs go play army soldier on the border. Give 'em surplus claymores. With any luck, they'll read the 'This Side Toward Enemy' thing wrong and we can be done wth that problem, too.

The ACLU has already indicated it may challenge everify. Nothing is preventing us from securing the border and implementing employee verification except for Hussein. Hussein even fought AZ for punishing employers that hired illegals all the way to the SC...fortunately he lost that one.

I like the minutemen. Maybe they could man the catapults. I've always advocated landmines on the border and with armed drones...just to be sure.

[KantoSooner]

Ah, c'mon now Turd. I know you keep a little list for use when Das Ordnung comes.

I know I saw you writing on it earlier when I annoyed you. 'Spect I'm on there somewhere.

And, yeah, there are any number of my fellow countrymen whose demise by dumb *** misadventure would not cost me too much sleep. And there are even more foreign folk who'd fall into that category. None of which says I'm going to do anything to hasten them on their way, by the way.

[KantoSooner]

Okie52, How are you going to 'secure' a 2200 mile border over rough terrain? Add in another 200 miles or so of water on either side just to make it interesting.
I don't think it can be done at anything like a rational cost.
Consider the Canadian border, however. We've got actual border crossings there that are unmanned. You walk in and use a pay phone to call an immigration officer to let him know that you're crossing. Difference? Canucks don't, in the main, want to come here for jobs.
You eliminate the jobs, you eliminate a big driver for illegal immigration.

And on this one, the ACLU can go get screwed. It's a 'step toward a national ID card?' Fine. I see no issue with national ID cards. Having your boss verify that your name matches a social security number is not a blow against constitutional government. They're blowing smoke.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Ah, c'mon now Turd. I know you keep a little list for use when Das Ordnung comes.

I know I saw you writing on it earlier when I annoyed you. 'Spect I'm on there somewhere.

And, yeah, there are any number of my fellow countrymen whose demise by dumb *** misadventure would not cost me too much sleep. And there are even more foreign folk who'd fall into that category. None of which says I'm going to do anything to hasten them on their way, by the way.


Don't know what you mean by "The Order", but hoping an American places a claymore the wrong way isn't cool.

[okie52]

Okie52, How are you going to 'secure' a 2200 mile border over rough terrain? Add in another 200 miles or so of water on either side just to make it interesting.
I don't think it can be done at anything like a rational cost.
Consider the Canadian border, however. We've got actual border crossings there that are unmanned. You walk in and use a pay phone to call an immigration officer to let him know that you're crossing. Difference? Canucks don't, in the main, want to come here for jobs.
You eliminate the jobs, you eliminate a big driver for illegal immigration.

And on this one, the ACLU can go get screwed. It's a 'step toward a national ID card?' Fine. I see no issue with national ID cards. Having your boss verify that your name matches a social security number is not a blow against constitutional government. They're blowing smoke.

Of course it can be done but most Americans wouldn't have the stomach for it.

Landmines really would eliminate most border crossings but some might think that was inhumane. So you are going to have to do it with personnel and surveillance and barriers.
It won't be airtight but it will be far better than what we have now particularly with an administration that handicaps ICE and border patrol personnel.

The ACLU has blown what I thought was smoke before and amazingly won their case . I hope everify is implemented...I think it can be effective. Of course allowing state and federal agencies along with schools and hospitals to notify authorities would also make sense...something that isn't done now.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/sanjoaquinsooner/tantrums.jpg

[okie52]

juan...the family is almost here..can't you feel it?

[okie52]

Don't know what you mean by "The Order", but hoping an American places a claymore the wrong way isn't cool.

The guys that patrol the border on their own time and dime aren't cool. It's the illegals, the people that ignore them and sanctuary cities that are the enlightened ones.

[sappstuf]

"Never again will we need to grant amnesty if we do it this time."

Sen. Ted Kennedy 1987

[KantoSooner]

Don't know what you mean by "The Order", but hoping an American places a claymore the wrong way isn't cool.

'Das'? 'Die'? I was never much good with German grammar. Term used by Nazi's in the 1930's to refer to a mythical time in the future when all would be put 'in order'. Kind of like the 'Taking Back' of America for some in our political discussions today.

And being an American isn't a get out of jail free card. I sincerely wish that Timmy McVeigh had had an 'oopsy' moment when he was learning how to play with explosives. I most sincerely do. And, to me, most militia types fall right over there with Timbo.

[Turd_Ferguson]

'Das'? 'Die'? I was never much good with German grammar. Term used by Nazi's in the 1930's to refer to a mythical time in the future when all would be put 'in order'. Kind of like the 'Taking Back' of America for some in our political discussions today.

And being an American isn't a get out of jail free card. I sincerely wish that Timmy McVeigh had had an 'oopsy' moment when he was learning how to play with explosives. I most sincerely do. And, to me, most militia types fall right over there with Timbo.

Right, so Americans patrolling the boarder since the government won't, gets them lumped in with TM?

Wow.

[okie52]

"Never again will we need to grant amnesty if we do it this time."

Sen. Ted Kennedy 1987

Ted was a visionary and what an enduring quote.

[KantoSooner]

Right, so Americans patrolling the boarder since the government won't, gets them lumped in with TM?

Wow.

If the shoe fits....

[Turd_Ferguson]

If the shoe fits....

I think you're too smart to actually believe that...

[okie52]

I think you're too smart to actually believe that...

If the shoe fits....

[Turd_Ferguson]

If the shoe fits....

Heh.

[KantoSooner]

I'm perfectly fine with individuals going out and enjoying their guns. I find it a bit weird, but I'll defend the rights of adult people to dress up like they were in the military. It's weirder, but still fine by me if they want to give each other imaginary ranks and address each other by rank (see Roger over there in the camo bass boat? We call him 'The Commodore').
I even have no problem if these wannabes dress up and go play camp out in groups. Not on my land, but if they're not trespassing, great.
Where I start getting a bit queasy is when they do all the above and start acting like they are part of a real life military. Because they aren't. They don't have the training, they don't have the legal rights/obligations, they don't have real discipline. They are about six inches this side of Nazi Brown Shirts. Private military units don't have a happy history in this country or in any other. They should not be tolerated, much less encouraged.

[FaninAma]

"Never again will we need to grant amnesty if we do it this time."

Sen. Ted Kennedy 1987


Other famous Teddy quotes:
"Trust me, I'm an excellent driver."

[okie52]

McCain: Obama’s Immigration Plan a No-go Without Tougher Border Security
Tuesday, 29 Jan 2013 06:10 PM
By Todd Beamon and Kathleen Walter

Former GOP presidential candidate Sen. John McCain of Arizona tells Newsmax TV that Republicans will not support President Barack Obama’s immigration reform plan because it lacks provisions for stronger border security.

“I would hope that the president at the end of the day would understand that there are, in the southern part of my state, people who do not live in a secure environment. He does,” McCain, who was among the eight bipartisan senators who introduced their own immigration plan on Monday, tells Newsmax in an exclusive interview.

“In southern Arizona, many ranchers and their families have drug-cartel members cross their property every night. They’re coyotes that bring people across. Wildlife refuges have been destroyed.

“I would hope the president would understand that we have to get our borders secure — and we have made improvements,” McCain added. “There have been significant improvements. We just need to do some more.”


Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/mccain-obama-immigration-reform/2013/01/29/id/487979?promo_code=10450-1&utm_source=On%20the%20Issues&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1#ixzz2JTSlG4uR


.

[okie52]

Other famous Teddy quotes:
"Trust me, I'm an excellent driver."

"Give me one for the road".

[KantoSooner]

And now, in a masterful move, I merge threads!

I wonder if abortion had been safe and available at the time whether Teddy would have still felt it necessary to murder Mary Jo?

[okie52]

I'm perfectly fine with individuals going out and enjoying their guns. I find it a bit weird, but I'll defend the rights of adult people to dress up like they were in the military. It's weirder, but still fine by me if they want to give each other imaginary ranks and address each other by rank (see Roger over there in the camo bass boat? We call him 'The Commodore').
I even have no problem if these wannabes dress up and go play camp out in groups. Not on my land, but if they're not trespassing, great.
Where I start getting a bit queasy is when they do all the above and start acting like they are part of a real life military. Because they aren't. They don't have the training, they don't have the legal rights/obligations, they don't have real discipline. They are about six inches this side of Nazi Brown Shirts. Private military units don't have a happy history in this country or in any other. They should not be tolerated, much less encouraged.

You don't have a problem with someone defending their own land, do you?

[KantoSooner]

You don't have a problem with someone defending their own land, do you?

No, none. But I'm thinking in terms of the .12 gauge in the bedroom, perhaps a ball bat behind the front door type of thing. And that is not what was going on along the border.
To keep the analogy, what they were doing was closer to our property owner above mining the street and operating check points several blocks either side of his property so that he could feel secure.

Border protection is the responsibility of the Federal government. If they're not doing what you believe to be an adequate job of it, organize, vote people of like mind into office and have the policy changed. It's just the same as not hopping in your car and engaging in a citizen's arrest if you see somebody speeding past your house.

[FaninAma]

And now, in a masterful move, I merge threads!

I wonder if abortion had been safe and available at the time whether Teddy would have still felt it necessary to murder Mary Jo?

I am shocked that her parents would allow themselves to be bought off. I wonder what that cost the old Joe Kennedy estate.

That is the one reason I have no respect for anything Teddy ever did in his career and it really pisses me off that the liberal media holds him up as some bastion of virtue. I knew we were in trouble with George W when the first thing he did in his first term was to seek out Ted Kennedy and work with him on "No Child Left Behind." No, just pregnant secretaries/mistresses, right Ted?

[okie52]

No, none. But I'm thinking in terms of the .12 gauge in the bedroom, perhaps a ball bat behind the front door type of thing. And that is not what was going on along the border.
To keep the analogy, what they were doing was closer to our property owner above mining the street and operating check points several blocks either side of his property so that he could feel secure.

Border protection is the responsibility of the Federal government. If they're not doing what you believe to be an adequate job of it, organize, vote people of like mind into office and have the policy changed. It's just the same as not hopping in your car and engaging in a citizen's arrest if you see somebody speeding past your house.

Nonsense.

The minutemen and other citizens were only notifying border patrol agents of trespassers on their property which were suspected to be illegal aliens and/or drug traffickers. They were on private property with the consent or request of the property owner. If they operated beyond the law then I'd agree with their punishment.

I particularly liked one outcome of their presence.


Stopping aid to illegal immigrants on the border
In January 2006, the actions of California Minutemen helped influence the cancellation of a program sponsored by Humane Borders and the government of Mexico to supply over 70,000 maps to migrants to aid their illegal entry into the United States.[12] The maps were not designed to encourage illegal entry into the country, rather, they were aimed at mitigating death and injury by mapping out the positions of water stations, rescue beacons and recorded deaths.[13] However, Miguel Angel Paredes, a spokesman for Mexico's National Human Rights Commission said "this would be practically like telling the Minutemen where the migrants are going to be" and as such, they'd have to "rethink this, so that we wouldn't almost be handing them over to groups that attack migrants".[14]

I laughed at that explanation.

And they were monitored by the ACLU and other illegal supporters...so much so that the ACLU personnel were often accused of warning illegals by flashing their lights and sounding their horns.

Securing the border was not done by the government...by any president in the last 30 years. It probably won't be done this time. Someone speeding across my property doesn't preclude me from calling the police nor does it prevent me while driving to notify the highway patrol of a drunk driver.

[KantoSooner]

I am shocked that her parents would allow themselves to be bought off. I wonder what that cost the old Joe Kennedy estate.

That is the one reason I have no respect for anything Teddy ever did in his career and it really pisses me off that the liberal media holds him up as some bastion of virtue. I knew we were in toruble with George W when the first thing he did in his first term was to seek out Ted Kennedy and work with him on "No Child Left Behind." No, just pregnance secretaries/mistresses, right Ted?

No idea what the old man had to dole out. Maybe not that much. If you've never lived in Mass, you have no idea how revered that entire rotten clan was and is. if your surname is Kennedy, you are quite literally above the law.

[KantoSooner]

Okie52
I'm okay with the observe and report type thing. Still don't think the border can be secured at a $ cost within reason. Still don't like the whole idea of armed, self-deputized gangs roaming around.
Mind you, that would be something that TAMU cadets could do that would be useful and fulfill their juvenile fantasies. Hell, they'd probably pay to have the chance to go play army soldier.

[diverdog]

Nonsense.

The minutemen and other citizens were only notifying border patrol agents of trespassers on their property which were suspected to be illegal aliens and/or drug traffickers. They were on private property with the consent or request of the property owner. If they operated beyond the law then I'd agree with their punishment.

I particularly liked one outcome of their presence.



I laughed at that explanation.

And they were monitored by the ACLU and other illegal supporters...so much so that the ACLU personnel were often accused of warning illegals by flashing their lights and sounding their horns.

Securing the border was not done by the government...by any president in the last 30 years. It probably won't be done this time. Someone speeding across my property doesn't preclude me from calling the police nor does it prevent me while driving to notify the highway patrol of a drunk driver.

I believe in an environmentally friendly solution. A win win proposition. Seems to me the SW part of the US is prime habitat for all sorts of endangered African critters like crocs, hippos, rinos........lions. You know the kind of beast that you hope to never meet. Ones that will stomp the ever living **** out of you. Bona fide man killers. I am pretty sure a few thousand lions could accomplish what the government has failed to do more cheaply and efficiently than the messs we have now.

[Soonerjeepman]

If they're not doing what you believe to be an adequate job of it, organize, vote people of like mind into office and have the policy changed. .

problem is the sitting president wants to legalize 11 million VOTES for him. Essentially telling us voting won't count.

[SicEmBaylor]

problem is the sitting president wants to legalize 11 million VOTES for him. Essentially telling us voting won't count.
Not a single one of those 11 million people can vote for him....ever.

In any case, any Republican who votes for any sort of amnesty program should lose their seat. Hell, any Senator who ever votes for any program that provides any sort of amnesty to illegals or even reforms the immigration process making it easier to come to this country should lose their seat.

All immigration...legal or otherwise should have been stopped long long ago.

[KantoSooner]

All immigration...legal or otherwise should have been stopped long long ago.

SicEm, Check out Japan and you'll see about how well that policy works out. Not for open borders, but it is possible to go way too far the other way.

[Midtowner]

I believe in an environmentally friendly solution. A win win proposition. Seems to me the SW part of the US is prime habitat for all sorts of endangered African critters like crocs, hippos, rinos........lions. You know the kind of beast that you hope to never meet. Ones that will stomp the ever living **** out of you. Bona fide man killers. I am pretty sure a few thousand lions could accomplish what the government has failed to do more cheaply and efficiently than the messs we have now.

On the other hand, it'd be hell on ranchers.

[okie52]

SicEm, Check out Japan and you'll see about how well that policy works out. Not for open borders, but it is possible to go way too far the other way.

I've got no problem allowing well educated and skilled labor to immigrate. We currently allow for 600,000 legal immigrants a year. That should be plenty. Unskilled labor I don't really see the need unless it is just being used to keep wages low.

[okie52]

Okie52
I'm okay with the observe and report type thing. Still don't think the border can be secured at a $ cost within reason. Still don't like the whole idea of armed, self-deputized gangs roaming around.
Mind you, that would be something that TAMU cadets could do that would be useful and fulfill their juvenile fantasies. Hell, they'd probably pay to have the chance to go play army soldier.

My son's Army unit stationed in El Paso twice pulled border patrol in his 4 years at Ft Bliss. Once was in March 2009 surrounding El Paso to protect the city from the violence that was overflowing from that Hellhole piece of **** Juarez. The 2nd time was March of 2012 near Tuscon to observe drug runners for 6 weeks and notify ICE. Both cases they were only allowed to fire if fired upon and they didn't personally apprehend the criminals. They did cause the apprehension of drug runners by ICE through their notification.

We have the problem of once it seems certain that an amnesty measure would pass that a lot of illegals could once again flood the border to take advantage of the situation so the border must be secure prior to any enactment of amnesty.

What are we going to do with the illegals that don't show they have been here for 3-5 years or fail to meet some other qualifier...actually deport them? Are we going to beef up our deportation personnel as well as streamline deportment, too?

We certainly have enough troops to rotate along the border particularly if we bring some home from Iraq, Afghanistan and other foreign locations/bases. If we add surveillance along with personnel and strategically placed barriers it would greatly reduce invasion. And, of course, real coordination among state and federal agencies as well as schools, hospitals and employment verification would drop illegals to a miniscule number.

[diverdog]

On the other hand, it'd be hell on ranchers.

Pffft...they are probably 47%ers. Just consider it a cost cutting measure. Jeez you really need to look at all the silver linings in this proposal.

[Midtowner]

Pffft...they are probably 47%ers. Just consider it a cost cutting measure. Jeez you really need to look at all the silver linings in this proposal.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kaZ5l-Hx2yA/ToU0wka2KvI/AAAAAAAADC4/Tx6CV7SLKpE/s1600/sharkslaser.jpg

^ to guard the sea routes?

[diverdog]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kaZ5l-Hx2yA/ToU0wka2KvI/AAAAAAAADC4/Tx6CV7SLKpE/s1600/sharkslaser.jpg

^ to guard the sea routes?


Me likeeee. Kill em on the beaches before they get here. Now that is thinking outside the box.

[olevetonahill]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kaZ5l-Hx2yA/ToU0wka2KvI/AAAAAAAADC4/Tx6CV7SLKpE/s1600/sharkslaser.jpg

^ to guard the sea routes?

We already have Laser guided sharks
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxouLi1TB83JaUed6uLbKwluMRR2-HQBUlMXBVQRL51c1Rt9Vz

[okie52]

We already have Laser guided sharks
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxouLi1TB83JaUed6uLbKwluMRR2-HQBUlMXBVQRL51c1Rt9Vz

LOL

[SanJoaquinSooner]

problem is the sitting president wants to legalize 11 million VOTES for him. Essentially telling us voting won't count.

In what year would they, at the earliest, be able to vote?

[SicEmBaylor]

In what year would they, at the earliest, be able to vote?
...and how many of those 11 million votes will be FOR him?

I'm going to make a bold prediction here and say that Barack Obama will never again receive a single vote in any election. Not one single vote.

[KantoSooner]

Okie,
I'm game to listen if you think you can seal the border at a cost effective level. My own estimates are that it would require somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 people per mile (multiple shifts per day, some support, some admin etc) at around 2400 miles to cover, you're looking at 750,000 personel. (military? ICE? Border Patrol). Vehicles (land, airborne, riverine, naval). Then you've got construction costs for roads, fences, barracks, airfields, etc.
If you pay the people a bare min of $30 K per year, that's around $22.5 billion in direct salary costs per year. Then you feed, house, clothe and doctor them. Say you build a single patrol road the length of the thing. About what? $5,000 a mile for a simple dirt road? Maybe half is already done. Plus the barracks, airstrips, etc. Maybe what? Another $1-2 bil in upfront costs that have zero benefit to the civilian economy. Fuel costs, operation costs on at least ten cutter class marine interdiction vessels. it's not going to be cheap, and it'll eat up around 25% of our military to do it.
Doable, I suppose, but I'd sure look at other options long and hard before I started forking out a billion a week or so in exchange for preventing Jose from coming across to pick lettuce.

[FaninAma]

I'm torn on this issue. I do feel the more illegal, unassimilated immigrants that come to this country the bigger the drain on our social resources and the bigger our deficit becomes so I am not necessarily against a plan to assimilate them into society. However, I also feel that most of those here illegally will not participate in a plan that calls for paying fines, taxes and waiting behind those here legally for citizenship. Why should they? What is the downside for them unless we get a lot tougher about employees hiring illegals and states handing out benefits to illegals.

What do you parents do when your kids keep breaking your rules over and over and over again? Do you reward them or do you show them a little tough love?

[XingTheRubicon]

...or trade them for a pet

[KantoSooner]

I tend to turn the cell phone upside down and stop using the speaker, concentrate on the mic. The conversation becomes very one-sided.
Dictats such as:
"I don't GAS, turn the car around. Now."
"Come home. Now."
"Tell your boyfriend to **** off and come home. Now."
"Drop your friends off at a bus stop and come home. Now."

It works.

[OU68]

...or trade them for a pet

heh :friendly_wink:

[okie52]

Kanto-I think we both agree that removing the incentives for illegal immigration will go a long way to reduce the problem. Employment verification coupled with severe penalties for employers that hire illegals would be a big deterrent. Hospitals, schools, municipal & state agencies providing information to feds would also be a big improvement.

I'm suggesting that we wouldn't have to increase our expenditures that much for enforcement beyond what we are already paying for our military now. Removing troops from Iraq (which has already happened to a large degree) along with troops from Afghanistan would be plenty to patrol the border. I'm really seeing them as backup to ICE and border patrol agents. I'm hoping that drones will provide the needed surveillance and we have border agents/some military in position for rapid response to intruders. I see the drones (since we won't use landmines) as being very cost effective and could eliminate the need for a bunch of boots on the ground.

Strategic barricades could be effective at major crossing points. I don't think you have to have a 2,000 mile fence if the other deterrents are in place.

Here is something else that could be very effective in surveillance on the border:

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/08/15/us-military-adds-blimps-to-patrol-border/

With rapid response units positioned so they could respond effectively to intruders before they reach population centers I would think our costs could be very reasonable.

It would also make sense that since many people are discussing speeding up the immigration process we should also speed up the deportation process.

[olevetonahill]

Okie,
I'm game to listen if you think you can seal the border at a cost effective level. My own estimates are that it would require somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 people per mile (multiple shifts per day, some support, some admin etc) at around 2400 miles to cover, you're looking at 750,000 personel. (military? ICE? Border Patrol). Vehicles (land, airborne, riverine, naval). Then you've got construction costs for roads, fences, barracks, airfields, etc.
If you pay the people a bare min of $30 K per year, that's around $22.5 billion in direct salary costs per year. Then you feed, house, clothe and doctor them. Say you build a single patrol road the length of the thing. About what? $5,000 a mile for a simple dirt road? Maybe half is already done. Plus the barracks, airstrips, etc. Maybe what? Another $1-2 bil in upfront costs that have zero benefit to the civilian economy. Fuel costs, operation costs on at least ten cutter class marine interdiction vessels. it's not going to be cheap, and it'll eat up around 25% of our military to do it.
Doable, I suppose, but I'd sure look at other options long and hard before I started forking out a billion a week or so in exchange for preventing Jose from coming across to pick lettuce.

Much simpler, Easier and cheaper to Just use Drones, we got em why not use em .

[okie52]

Much simpler, Easier and cheaper to Just use Drones, we got em why not use em .

That's what I'm thinking. Of course, amnesty doesn't have to be involved for us to do these things now!!!

[KantoSooner]

I'm not too religiously devoted to what comes first. In my opinion, it's all got to come pretty close to the same time to be effective. In addition to simple law enforcement, you've got economic concerns, basic human compassion, relationships with Mexico as a country (they aren't moving anytime soon, we desperately need to have better relations) and across the border on a person-to-person basis (It used to be much better and was more productive) to consider.
I'm pretty happy Washington seems serious about this and hope we can all try to support whatever sausage the grinder up there produces. We couldn't get much worse than what we have today.

[okie52]

I'm not sure what Mexico's gripe with the US would be. We are possibly about to assimilate over 10% of their entire population as citizens. We will be doing it for the 2nd time in the last 25 years. The Mexican government has been facilitating this illegal migration and is rewarded with it's second largest source of income...the money sent home by the illegals to their families.

It would seem paramount to me that the border be secure prior to any amnesty considerations as I fully expect another large influx of illegals if amnesty moves towards reality. I'm sure everify (or whatever employer ID is decided upon) will take time to implement nationally as well as beefing up ICE personnel to handle the initial barrage of paperwork/documentation, etc...

I really don't have much compassion for the illegals. I probably should have some but after witnessing a cinco de mayo event in liberal, KS by thousands of illegals in 2006 (hard to believe how many are in Liberal and Guymon) where illegals demanded their rights and citizenship while waiving Mexican flags I really don't have much sympathy for them.

[KantoSooner]

Well, they are not happy that we allow huge, unregulated arms bazaars across from border crossings. Some with the conivance of our senior law enforcement officials. They've got a long term butt hurt about being treated like they aren't quite good enough to play with white people. We've cut off the Colorado River before it gets across the border. Etc etc. Nothing insurmountable by itself. More a collection of 'death of a thousand cuts' kind of deal. Again, they aren't going anywhere; we should do what we can to make the border a positive rather than a negative thiing.
I think 'amnesty' talk is not productive. It mistates the policy and could be mistunderstood by people who might be attracted. We're talking about a long, drawn out process that involves, significant monetary penalties, as I understand it. If you had a guest worker program, along with some reasonable form for getting a response out of immigration in a timely fashion, you'd probably cut the number of folks trying to get in illegally quite substantially.
Everify could be ready to rock in 30 days.
We could start exit screening immediately. We're the only country I'm aware of on earth that doesn't check visitors out as well as in. The airlines do it now. All it would take would be to tie the software into ICE. Shouldn't take 30 days.
You should be able to detect through technical means or via land owner reports, the major pathways outside of major metro areas. Use your light infantry units to interdict and arrest. If anyone decided to go Rambo with them, they'd have the firepower to respond. It would give them some night field work.
Can't see any of that taking long to implement and all of it would have impact that would be felt immediately on both sides of the border.
I'd also tell the ICE folks that there was going to be a new policy in place for cases that just never seem to get resolved. They'd be fired with loss of their civil service benefits. That'd get the lazy s.o.b.s off their butts.

[Curly Bill]

1. $10,000 fine for knowingly hiring an illegal. ($10,000 for each offense, and for each illegal)

2. Open hunting season on em for those of us willing to expend some ammo. You could sell tags and licenses - it'd help take a chunk out of the debt! Two birds with one stone. You're welcome!

[okie52]

Well, they are not happy that we allow huge, unregulated arms bazaars across from border crossings. Some with the conivance of our senior law enforcement officials. They've got a long term butt hurt about being treated like they aren't quite good enough to play with white people. We've cut off the Colorado River before it gets across the border. Etc etc. Nothing insurmountable by itself. More a collection of 'death of a thousand cuts' kind of deal. Again, they aren't going anywhere; we should do what we can to make the border a positive rather than a negative thiing.
I think 'amnesty' talk is not productive. It mistates the policy and could be mistunderstood by people who might be attracted. We're talking about a long, drawn out process that involves, significant monetary penalties, as I understand it. If you had a guest worker program, along with some reasonable form for getting a response out of immigration in a timely fashion, you'd probably cut the number of folks trying to get in illegally quite substantially.
Everify could be ready to rock in 30 days.
We could start exit screening immediately. We're the only country I'm aware of on earth that doesn't check visitors out as well as in. The airlines do it now. All it would take would be to tie the software into ICE. Shouldn't take 30 days.
You should be able to detect through technical means or via land owner reports, the major pathways outside of major metro areas. Use your light infantry units to interdict and arrest. If anyone decided to go Rambo with them, they'd have the firepower to respond. It would give them some night field work.
Can't see any of that taking long to implement and all of it would have impact that would be felt immediately on both sides of the border.
I'd also tell the ICE folks that there was going to be a new policy in place for cases that just never seem to get resolved. They'd be fired with loss of their civil service benefits. That'd get the lazy s.o.b.s off their butts.

Obama's fast and furious does have it problems although the drug cartels are Mexico's gift to us.

I wasn't thinking as much about the government getting the software for everify as much as I would be concerned about businesses being integrated into the system along with knowing what procedures & training would be involved with a new system. I certainly support exit checkouts...it only makes sense.

I never thought of negative connotations about the term "Amnesty" as I saw it just that way for illegals residing in the country. Since I am against "amnesty" and citizenship for any of the illegals I will cling to the term if it will help dissuade people from supporting the policy. I don't see the long term benefit of their citizenship being good for the country or for fiscal conservatives (or pubs if you choose not to categorize them as conservatives). Almost all of these illegals will be at or near the poverty level and will vote accordingly as history has shown which will be overwhelmingly for the dems. If I thought there was a decent chance that they might ultimately vote conservative then the proposition would be more attractive to me. Even then I don't see the illegals paying their way when measured against the actual costs to taxpayers given the likelihood that they will be low income producers.

[okie52]

1. $10,000 fine for knowingly hiring an illegal. ($10,000 for each offense, and for each illegal)

2. Open hunting season on em for those of us willing to expend some ammo. You could sell tags and licenses - it'd help take a chunk out of the debt! Two birds with one stone. You're welcome!

LOL...Free catapult rides for illegals.

[Curly Bill]

LOL...Free catapult rides for illegals.

Before or after we shoot em?

[okie52]

Before or after we shoot em?

You could make it like a skeet shoot...kind of a 2 for 1.

[Curly Bill]

You could make it like a skeet shoot...kind of a 2 for 1.

I like it!!

[olevetonahill]

Here ,Yall practice up.
http://www.flashrolls.com/shooting-games/Border-Patrol-Flash-Game.htm

[SanJoaquinSooner]

1. $10,000 fine for knowingly hiring an illegal. ($10,000 for each offense, and for each illegal)

2. Open hunting season on em for those of us willing to expend some ammo. You could sell tags and licenses - it'd help take a chunk out of the debt! Two birds with one stone. You're welcome!

Curly, this is LAST year's GOP platform. Apparently it needs to be tweaked.

[okie52]

Here ,Yall practice up.
http://www.flashrolls.com/shooting-games/Border-Patrol-Flash-Game.htm

Heh heh....I'm pretty sure this game may not be viewed as politically correct...but I'm just guessing here.

[okie52]

Curly, this is LAST year's GOP platform. Apparently it needs to be tweaked.

juan...what is the proper label now for the illegals...just to make them happy? Undocumented worker? Earned residency? Dreamer?

How did you score on the game?

[Curly Bill]

I'm at work and it was taking too long to load anyway on my piece of carp computer. Ima have to check it out another time.

[Curly Bill]

Curly, this is LAST year's GOP platform. Apparently it needs to be tweaked.

I have my own platform. And the GOP can bite me! They're almost as bad as the donks!

[okie52]

I have my own platform. And the GOP can bite me! They're almost as bad as the donks!

Would that be like a deer stand?

[Curly Bill]

Would that be like a deer stand?

It's a deer stand on which you stand and express your opinions, especially of a political nature, to others.

[rock on sooner]

LOL...Free catapult rides for illegals.

There's the catapluts again...heh.

As a former hiring manager in four different states over the years, I can say
that the gov't gradually increased the requirements for background checks to
the point that, if followed, would catch most illegals wanting to work in most
industries. The main issue, as many here have pointed out, is whether the
employer follows the rules. Commercial farming operations, slaughter houses,
beef, pork, chicken processing plants appear to be the biggest offenders. It
seems to me, that since there are a finite number of those operations, the gov't
could set up inspection teams, along the lines of Federal Reserve districts, that
could fan out and, unannounced, inspect these companies and very quickly, as
word spread, the illegals would disappear. With substantial fines and some quick
jail sentences, the repeat offending companies would learn their lessons and the
major magnet for the illegals would dry up. The problems would
be solved. Seguro si y mas rapido.

[okie52]

There's the catapluts again...heh.

As a former hiring manager in four different states over the years, I can say
that the gov't gradually increased the requirements for background checks to
the point that, if followed, would catch most illegals wanting to work in most
industries. The main issue, as many here have pointed out, is whether the
employer follows the rules. Commercial farming operations, slaughter houses,
beef, pork, chicken processing plants appear to be the biggest offenders. It
seems to me, that since there are a finite number of those operations, the gov't
could set up inspection teams, along the lines of Federal Reserve districts, that
could fan out and, unannounced, inspect these companies and very quickly, as
word spread, the illegals would disappear. With substantial fines and some quick
jail sentences, the repeat offending companies would learn their lessons and the
major magnet for the illegals would dry up. The problems would
be solved. Seguro si y mas rapido.

I have a few builder/developer friends here in the metro. Most of their labor is 1099. They tell me that they will get notices after about a year that the SS# that was used on a form was invalid or for a dead person. The offending contract worker then just changes his SS# to a different one and the process repeats itself.

[KantoSooner]

I drive the back roads of the Okie/Arkie border quite a bit for work. Lots of Pentecostal churches with Spanish signs out front. Make of that what you will. Oh, and Springdale, AR is heaven on earth if you like Central American food. Make what you want of that as well.

[rock on sooner]

I have a few builder/developer friends here in the metro. Most of their labor is 1099. They tell me that they will get notices after about a year that the SS# that was used on a form was invalid or for a dead person. The offending contract worker then just changes his SS# to a different one and the process repeats itself.

Just guessing here, but it sounds as though your builder/developer friends
would be candidates for those surprise inspections. Seems like one or more
of those invalid SS #'s would be a signal flare for the feds. One of the more
recent changes in the hiring process toward the end of my career was the
requirement of a birth certificate and a photo ID..e.g. passport, driver's
license. That's why SS #'s are not acceptable forms of ID in most cases.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

juan...what is the proper label now for the illegals...just to make them happy? Undocumented worker? Earned residency? Dreamer?

How did you score on the game?

Gov't language is "persons unlawfully present" or "an alien unlawfully present."

I didn't play any game ... I knew better than to open the link.

[okie52]

Gov't language is "persons unlawfully present" or "an alien unlawfully present."

I didn't play any game ... I knew better than to open the link.

Is that good enough for the hispanic community? They seem to take offense to Amnesty or Pathway to citizenship.

[olevetonahill]

Every one knows Im an equal opportunity arsehole. That said. Yall that like yer Chicken best be glad they be some mesicans here to work those plants, Aint none of this PWT around here gonna work opver at the chicken plant in Heavner .

So while yer eatin yer Wings this weekend Thank a Messican.

[okie52]

Every one knows Im an equal opportunity arsehole. That said. Yall that like yer Chicken best be glad they be some mesicans here to work those plants, Aint none of this PWT around here gonna work opver at the chicken plant in Heavner .

So while yer eatin yer Wings this weekend Thank a Messican.

Thanks Pablo...but I hear there may a wing shortage.

[olevetonahill]

Thanks Pablo...but I hear there may a wing shortage.

Heh. Pancho is pickin em as fast as they grow.

[okie52]

Just guessing here, but it sounds as though your builder/developer friends
would be candidates for those surprise inspections. Seems like one or more
of those invalid SS #'s would be a signal flare for the feds. One of the more
recent changes in the hiring process toward the end of my career was the
requirement of a birth certificate and a photo ID..e.g. passport, driver's
license. That's why SS #'s are not acceptable forms of ID in most cases.

I've been 1099 for 13 years now and I've never provided more than my SS#. 1099's that have worked for me have never been required to provide more than that. Plus, I don't even think we have been trying to get people the last decade or so. ****, you see illegals on TV and in the newspapers crying about their plight knowing that nothing will happen to them. Hell, they even protest as illegals on TV and nothing happens to them.

[okie52]

I drive the back roads of the Okie/Arkie border quite a bit for work. Lots of Pentecostal churches with Spanish signs out front. Make of that what you will. Oh, and Springdale, AR is heaven on earth if you like Central American food. Make what you want of that as well.

Well I don't know what to make of that.

[pphilfran]

Every one knows Im an equal opportunity arsehole. That said. Yall that like yer Chicken best be glad they be some mesicans here to work those plants, Aint none of this PWT around here gonna work opver at the chicken plant in Heavner .

So while yer eatin yer Wings this weekend Thank a Messican.

There was this Aggie, Chester, that wanted to start a chicken farm.

He bought 1000 chickens. Took em to the farm and planted them feet first at 3' spacings...they all died...

"Hmmm" says Chester..."I must have done something wrong."

So he goes and buys another 1000 chickens. Takes them to the farm and plants them head first....they all died...

"Damn, this is getting expensive!" he says to no one in particular...

"I know!" he shouts "I will write OSU and see if they can find the problem!"

So he writes a letter...how he had planted them right side up and they all died...planted them upside down and they all died...

A week later...letter from OSU

Chester excited opens letter and reads...

"Chester, please send soil sample."

[okie52]

Hispanic population increases in the Oklahoma City metro area
Warr Acres and Moore had the fastest growth in Hispanic population between 2000 and 2010.

By Vallery Brown | Published: June 30, 2012 0

David Castillo has seen the city change over the past decade. As president of the Greater Oklahoma City Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, what census data shows in numbers, Castillo sees on the streets of the city and the businesses flourishing there.

“The growth is continuing and will continue for a long time,” Castillo said.
Along SW 29 and other main thoroughfares on the city's south side, mom-and-pop Hispanic businesses are thriving — restaurants, automotive repair shops, markets and barbershops. Castillo said that in 2008 there were 150 members of the chamber. Today, there are nearly 400.

Why OKC is attractive

According to U.S. Census Bureau data, the Hispanic community in Oklahoma City grew 95 percent between 2000 and 2010 to just more than 110,000. The Hispanic population in Edmond boomed by 120 percent from about 1,900 in 2000 to over 4,100 in 2010. To the south, Moore's Hispanic population grew 134 percent over the same time period to 4,900. Norman's 10-year growth rate was 90 percent to about 7,100.

The census defines Hispanic or Latino as a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Hispanic culture or origin, regardless of race.
Castillo said low unemployment, low cost of living and an abundance of churches make the Oklahoma City area an attractive spot for Hispanics.
As the state's largest metropolitan area, there are a host of jobs and opportunities.
“It is a great place to raise your family and is in the center of the country,” Castillo said. “There are many types of jobs and businesses here.”

In Edmond, where the Hispanic population increased by 120 percent over a decade, schools have increased their English language learners programs.
“There were no ELL teachers in the Edmond district in the year 2000,” said Edmond Schools spokeswoman Susan Parks-Schlepp. “Since then, one to two teachers have been added each year.”

‘Culturally diverse'

While there has been an increase in Hispanic students enrolling in the district, Asians make up about 40 percent of students learning English in the district, Parks-Schlepp said.
The Hispanic population in Warr Acres grew 171 percent to 2,030, making it a city with one of the fastest growing Hispanic populations in the metro area.
Jill McCartney, with the Northwest City Chamber of Commerce, pointed to many Hispanic-owned businesses in the area along with the availability of well-priced housing.
“Our whole community is becoming more culturally diverse,” she said. “The Hispanic population is growing here, but it's growing across the community.”
Moore's Hispanic population was the second fastest in the metro area at 134 percent. The city's Hispanic population grew from about 2,100 in 2000 to 4,900 in 2010.
Patricia Fennell, with the Latino Community Development Agency, said much of the growth is among the younger generations of the population. High birthrates among Hispanic women also contribute.
“Immigration is a part of it, but it's not the whole thing,” Fennell said.
Like other parts of the population, when jobs leave an area, workers often pick up and move to other places where friends or families members can help them find employment.
“Employment is the magnet,” she said.

Looks like Edmond is turning into a politically correct ****hole like some other OK communities...Norman too. Paying for ELL teachers...good lord...tell them to go **** themselves. What a waste of taxpayer money. I'm sure the hospitals and schools are taking a nice hit, too.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Is that good enough for the hispanic community? They seem to take offense to Amnesty or Pathway to citizenship.

Amnesty is an incorrect word. Amnesty is a full pardon and erasure of any record (amnesia). For a civil violation of the law, paying a fine is often the punishment, and under the framework of the discussions, they will have to pay a fine and it will stay on their record.

Amnesty is what Oklahoma tattoo artists were given with the law legalizing tattoo parlors.

[okie52]

Amnesty is an incorrect word. Amnesty is a full pardon and erasure of any record (amnesia). For a civil violation of the law, paying a fine is often the punishment, and under the framework of the discussions, they will have to pay a fine and it will stay on their record.

Amnesty is what Oklahoma tattoo artists were given with the law legalizing tattoo parlors.

What will stay on their record?...like a traffic ticket?

I haven't been to a tattoo parlor so I wouldn't know...but I'd be somewhat happy if all illegals were tattooed with "illegal" prior to their "amnesty"...kind of like Inglorious Bastards.