Anyone see their first pay stub of 2013 yet?

[badger]

The biggest difference is in the Social Security deduction, but there appear to be a bit of a difference in both state and federal taxes as well. Without divulging numbers:

Federal difference: Minor
Oklahoma difference: Minor
SS difference: HUGE

So, for all my fellow Americans who are at retirement age and are collecting a government-issued check under the guise of "I earned it, this is my back pay," when in fact you'll be taking out far more than you ever put in and you know it... you're welcome.

Please consider my gift to you retirees next time you put down my generation as lazy, soft, uneducated, entitled, Obama-loving, and everything else.

And yes, I didn't sleep very much last night, so I am extra cranky today.

[pphilfran]

Gift my ***...

It is not the retirees fault...it is the governments fault for putting in a plan that was not sustainable...

Each and everyone of us was promised that if we pay in x amount we will receive y benefits when we retire...

[badger]

Oh no, I don't fault the retirees. However, I am starting to understand why so many of my peers are defying their elders and voting with the Democrats, namely Obama.

I'm not there (yet), don't worry.

[SoonerorLater]

The biggest difference is in the Social Security deduction, but there appear to be a bit of a difference in both state and federal taxes as well. Without divulging numbers:

Federal difference: Minor
Oklahoma difference: Minor
SS difference: HUGE

So, for all my fellow Americans who are at retirement age and are collecting a government-issued check under the guise of "I earned it, this is my back pay," when in fact you'll be taking out far more than you ever put in and you know it... you're welcome.

Please consider my gift to you retirees next time you put down my generation as lazy, soft, uneducated, entitled, Obama-loving, and everything else.

And yes, I didn't sleep very much last night, so I am extra cranky today.

SS was formed as an "old age" anti-poverty insurance plan. In that respect it's not much different than other types of insurance, the people who receive benefits are subsidized by those who do not. From a logistical point of view if you only got what you put in it would be pointless to have such a program. (except form the politicains point of view of SS as a big candy store).

[pphilfran]

Oh no, I don't fault the retirees. However, I am starting to understand why so many of my peers are defying their elders and voting with the Democrats, namely Obama.

I'm not there (yet), don't worry.

Democrats are the ones refusing to raise the retirement age and by doing so they are willing to completely destroy the fund over the long term so they can keep folks happy in the short term...

[soonercruiser]

The biggest difference is in the Social Security deduction, but there appear to be a bit of a difference in both state and federal taxes as well. Without divulging numbers:

Federal difference: Minor
Oklahoma difference: Minor
SS difference: HUGE

So, for all my fellow Americans who are at retirement age and are collecting a government-issued check under the guise of "I earned it, this is my back pay," when in fact you'll be taking out far more than you ever put in and you know it... you're welcome.

Please consider my gift to you retirees next time you put down my generation as lazy, soft, uneducated, entitled, Obama-loving, and everything else.

And yes, I didn't sleep very much last night, so I am extra cranky today.


Badger!
Don't feel bad, as we once-retired, but still working jerks saw the same tax increasese in both pay checks.
.......and, the military retirement check, that I already "earned" and paid taxes on already.
Also saw a doubling of my Rx co-pay too! Way to take care of you vets!
:concern:

[diverdog]

Badger!
Don't feel bad, as we once-retired, but still working jerks saw the same tax increasese in both pay checks.
.......and, the military retirement check, that I already "earned" and paid taxes on already.
Also saw a doubling of my Rx co-pay too! Way to take care of you vets!
:concern:


Here is a dose or reality for your cruiser since it seems that you have never worked in the private sector. I work for a large company with okay benefits. We get an HSA with no contributions. My deductible is $750 with a co-pay of $3000. So that means I could pay $3750 a year for deductibles/copay (single). My copay on prescriptions is $25. On top of that I have to pay 25% of my premiums.

I want you to explain to the real working stiffs on this board who do not make nearly as much as you do in retirement, who do not get health insurance paid for by the government why you have such a bad deal? How much more do you want from us? Are you saying you should not pay any taxes on your military retirement? Why should you be excluded when everyone in the civilian world will pay taxes on their retirement accounts when they start taking distributions?

[olevetonahill]

Here is a dose or reality for your cruiser since it seems that you have never worked in the private sector. I work for a large company with okay benefits. We get an HSA with no contributions. My deductible is $750 with a co-pay of $3000. So that means I could pay $3750 a year for deductibles/copay. My copay on prescriptions is $25. On top of that I have to pay 25% of my premiums.

I want you to explain to the real working stiffs on this board who do not make nearly as much as you do in retirement, who do not get health insurance paid for by the government why you have such a bad deal? How much more do you want from us? Are you saying you should not pay any taxes on your military retirement? Why should you be excluded when everyone in the civilian world will pay taxes on their retirement accounts when they start taking distributions.

Ima say He put his Life on the line for at least 20 years?
Others Took a few pieces of metal to get ours .

[diverdog]

Ima say He put his Life on the line for at least 20 years?
Others Took a few pieces of metal to get ours .

Vet I believe Cruiser was a dentist in the AF for most of his career. We need dentist and I am very appreciative of his service especially in Vietnam. The problem that I have with Cruiser is he complains constantly about any adjustments to his military retirement. My old man is a retired O 6 as well and I have never once heard him complain about his retirement. In fact, he is grateful for how generious it is. My father will make far more in retirement than he made in his entire 26 year career. He began collecting at age 48 (I believe). He will be 80 this year. If I had to guess we have paid him in excess of $1.5 million dollars plus free medical since he retired.

The facts are pretty straight foward. If we are going to continue to pay federal employees gold standard retirements then taxes have to go up on everyone. I am fine with that but don't bitch to me how rough you have it when the folks in the non-government world are getting hammered. Our military retirements are extremely generous and the entire system is a fairly recent addition to military service. It use to be you got a very small stipen when you left the service. The Pentegon has recognized that out of control cost on retirement is going to continue to eat at their budget. If we are going to continue to have a military like we have now then we have to pay more in taxes and charge a little more for medical care from retirees.

BTW if you are a disabled vet you get your bennies tax free as far as I know. I get over $700/mo and I have never reported it on my taxes. And if you see me posting at such late hours it is usually because my injury still hurts enough that it wakes me up at night. Well that and tonight I am furious with our coaching staff.

[badger]

Well that and tonight I am furious with our coaching staff.

I would have to say if any college coaches as well-paid as the OU ones are b!tching about the tax increases we'd really be fuming at them, heh.

I was just being lame in trying to be funny about begging old farts to stop calling young working stiffs entitled and lazy. I know that's never going to happen, because no matter how tough times get these days, old farts always had it tougher :D

And I love the military vets so much that I don't care about taxes going to pay for their lost limbs and other ailments. The rest of the government employees? Eff them. Especially the elected ones.

[olevetonahill]

Vet I believe Cruiser was a dentist in the AF for most of his career. We need dentist and I am very appreciative of his service especially in Vietnam. The problem that I have with Cruiser is he complains constantly about any adjustments to his military retirement. My old man is a retired O 6 as well and I have never once heard him complain about his retirement. In fact, he is grateful for how generious it is. My father will make far more in retirement than he made in his entire 26 year career. He began collecting at age 48 (I believe). He will be 80 this year. If I had to guess we have paid him in excess of $1.5 million dollars plus free medical since he retired.

The facts are pretty straight foward. If we are going to continue to pay federal employees gold standard retirements then taxes have to go up on everyone. I am fine with that but don't bitch to me how rough you have it when the folks in the non-government world are getting hammered. Our military retirements are extremely generous and the entire system is a fairly recent addition to military service. It use to be you got a very small stipen when you left the service. The Pentegon has recognized that out of control cost on retirement is going to continue to eat at their budget. If we are going to continue to have a military like we have now then we have to pay more in taxes and charge a little more for medical care from retirees.

BTW if you are a disabled vet you get your bennies tax free as far as I know. I get over $700/mo and I have never reported it on my taxes. And if you see me posting at such late hours it is usually because my injury still hurts enough that it wakes me up at night. Well that and tonight I am furious with our coaching staff.


Im with ya on the reasons to be up Late/early Bro

When I was in nam I got 275 bucks a Month, Heh Ya might say I made a killin. :glee:

[olevetonahill]

I would have to say if any college coaches as well-paid as the OU ones are b!tching about the tax increases we'd really be fuming at them, heh.

I was just being lame in trying to be funny about begging old farts to stop calling young working stiffs entitled and lazy. I know that's never going to happen, because no matter how tough times get these days, old farts always had it tougher :D

And I love the military vets so much that I don't care about taxes going to pay for their lost limbs and other ailments. The rest of the government employees? Eff them. Especially the elected ones.

Badge I aint Never ever called ANYONE whatever age who is willing able AND working Lazy. I frequently Brag on you youngsters who ARE productive.
Now as for having had it tougher . Thats just a given.
Ya have to admit there is FAR more money around today than there was back in the 50s an 60s when I was growing up. Even Poor kids have the Coolest toys

[FaninAma]

I read an article that stated if you are 60 or older you would probably break even on SS. The younger you are under the age of 60 the more you will pay into the system in taxes than you will recieve in benefits after you retire. This is based on working 40+ years and retiring at age 65.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Oh no, I don't fault the retirees. However, I am starting to understand why so many of my peers are defying their elders and voting with the Democrats, namely Obama.

It makes some sense to you to not consider what the democrats have done to our economy?(for starters),and to think he has the best interests of the country in mind/at heart?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Democrats are the ones refusing to raise the retirement age and by doing so they are willing to completely destroy the fund over the long term so they can cause economic failure faster....FIFY

[badger]

It makes some sense to you to not consider what the democrats have done to our economy?(for starters),and to think he has the best interests of the country in mind/at heart?

Consider how Obama and the Democrats nearly skunked the fiscal cliff deal through name-calling, chastising and overall arrogance. This is how some people of my generation feel toward older people who belittle them, look down on them and don't take them seriously, despite the fact that they are educated, working and taxpayers as well.

Republicans listen to Obama/Democrats rail on them and think "I'm an elected official too! Voters choose us for our ideas and our leadership just like they choose you! Why are you treating us like sh!t?"

So, what do young people do? They go their own way, even if it's not in the country's or their own best interest.

What do Republicans do? TBD when the debt ceiling stuff comes due.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Just don't be a foo*, by voting democrat,for any office. Well, if you like collectivist authoritarianism, go ahead. That's apparently what too many folks have done already, and we have at least 4 more yrs of economic chaos and destruction.

[badger]

Just don't be a foo*, by voting democrat,for any office. Well, if you like collectivist authoritarianism, go ahead. That's apparently what too many folks have done already, and we have at least 4 more yrs of economic chaos and destruction.

You're not going to convince voters by telling them that they're foolish, or that they must be stupid enough to like collectivist authoritarianism or whatever.

Convince them by appealing to their stronger qualities.

When I think about why people are turned off by the Republicans in the last election, it's because there's a lot of what we've seen that makes us hate Democrats lately --- arrogance. Name calling. Sh!t talking.

Seriously, man --- younger voters, female voters, minority voters --- they'd go Republican if Republicans gave them a strong reason to.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

You're not going to convince voters by telling them that they're foolish, or that they must be stupid enough to like collectivist authoritarianism or whatever.

Convince them by appealing to their stronger qualities.

When I think about why people are turned off by the Republicans in the last election, it's because there's a lot of what we've seen that makes us hate Democrats lately --- arrogance. Name calling. Sh!t talking.

Seriously, man --- younger voters, female voters, minority voters --- they'd go Republican if Republicans gave them a strong reason to.We are beyond rationality in government. The democrats have effectively poisoned the R party by constant mischaracterization in the MSM, Entertainment industry and Public Schools. Whoever can't see past that is simply absorbing koolaid. There are SOME good people in the R party, as opposed to nearly none in the d. Doesn't matter. The good ones are increasingly marginalized, and fewer good people are going for elected govt. jobs as time passes.. We are past the tipping point, FWIW.

[soonercruiser]

Here is a dose or reality for your cruiser since it seems that you have never worked in the private sector. I work for a large company with okay benefits. We get an HSA with no contributions. My deductible is $750 with a co-pay of $3000. So that means I could pay $3750 a year for deductibles/copay (single). My copay on prescriptions is $25. On top of that I have to pay 25% of my premiums.

I want you to explain to the real working stiffs on this board who do not make nearly as much as you do in retirement, who do not get health insurance paid for by the government why you have such a bad deal? How much more do you want from us? Are you saying you should not pay any taxes on your military retirement? Why should you be excluded when everyone in the civilian world will pay taxes on their retirement accounts when they start taking distributions?

Diver, Diver...
Why must you always be soooo condescending to those who have served a full career in the military, and EARNED their benefits...THAT WERE PROMISED THEM BY CONGRESS AND THE RECRUITERS????
Just like the person that recruited you to your current job, I "signed on" with promises. Many have not been kept, with respect to my family's health care, dental care, FOR LIFE!!!!
So soooo much drip with anger and destain to full miltary vets, that it really gets old listenening to you crying! You are still carrying over too much internal anger and remorse that must be addressed with some professional care....or medications.
I merely stated my facts that answered the question posed in the original post.
Too bad yopu can't accept my facts!

BTW - I am still a "working stiff"! And, I work for a fraction of what my services are worth because I like the environment, co-workers, and love teaching young people who will deliver your future medical and dental care with compassion. ("Compassion"....more than you post with...)

My military benefits were not free! Never were FREE! I earned an average of half of my peers in the private sector for 29 years. But, I loved the military life style and contributing to my country that way.
After retirement, (DUH!) military benefits are not free! There are TRICARE enrollement fees, "max"s, and co-pays for retirees.
And, when you are a retiree over 65 years of age, you loose all that, and are essentially on Medicare...for anything that TRICARE FOR LIFE would cover....with much larger co-pays. My tyipcal drug co-pays for drugs off base are the same now as yours.

You are just an angry military retiree wanna bee!

Who the heck said they didn't want to pay taxes???
Duh! I merely answered the question posed by the opening post. And you had to post another angry at military vets post!
Please get professional help, SOON!

[rock on sooner]

Im with ya on the reasons to be up Late/early Bro

When I was in nam I got 275 bucks a Month, Heh Ya might say I made a killin. :glee:

Dayum, that combat pay was sumpin!

[diverdog]

Diver, Diver...
Why must you always be soooo condescending to those who have served a full career in the military, and EARNED their benefits...THAT WERE PROMISED THEM BY CONGRESS AND THE RECRUITERS????
Just like the person that recruited you to your current job, I "signed on" with promises. Many have not been kept, with respect to my family's health care, dental care, FOR LIFE!!!!
So soooo much drip with anger and destain to full miltary vets, that it really gets old listenening to you crying! You are still carrying over too much internal anger and remorse that must be addressed with some professional care....or medications.
I merely stated my facts that answered the question posed in the original post.
Too bad yopu can't accept my facts!

BTW - I am still a "working stiff"! And, I work for a fraction of what my services are worth because I like the environment, co-workers, and love teaching young people who will deliver your future medical and dental care with compassion. ("Compassion"....more than you post with...)

My military benefits were not free! Never were FREE! I earned an average of half of my peers in the private sector for 29 years. But, I loved the military life style and contributing to my country that way.
After retirement, (DUH!) military benefits are not free! There are TRICARE enrollement fees, "max"s, and co-pays for retirees.
And, when you are a retiree over 65 years of age, you loose all that, and are essentially on Medicare...for anything that TRICARE FOR LIFE would cover....with much larger co-pays. My tyipcal drug co-pays for drugs off base are the same now as yours.

You are just an angry military retiree wanna bee!

Who the heck said they didn't want to pay taxes???
Duh! I merely answered the question posed by the opening post. And you had to post another angry at military vets post!
Please get professional help, SOON!


Read this and get back to me:

http://www.governing.com/columns/public-money/Looking-Twice-at-Pension.html

[diverdog]

Dayum, that combat pay was sumpin!

Lol. I think my combat pay was more than that.

[rock on sooner]

Lol. I think my combat pay was more than that.

I was never in combat but was in remote duty station and got a
little bump fer that..bet Vet wuz careful and saved a bunch of it!

[diverdog]

I was never in combat but was in remote duty station and got a
little bump fer that..bet Vet wuz careful and saved a bunch of it!

I will have to ask my dad what he got. I know he also got flight pay.

One of his friends in his squadron was a product of the Nazi breeding program. My father said he was an incredible person and had all the Aryan traits. Really a good looking guy and a fearless pilot. Sadly he was shot down and killed. That war was such a waste. We lost a bunch of friends over there.

[olevetonahill]

Dayum, that combat pay was sumpin!

Hell that was as an E-4 , Combat Pay, Tax free.
When I was in basic the Base pay was 88 bucks of which I got 66. According to My Dad that was the same as HE got in the early 40s while He was training to go to the Pacific.

I see how much these kids get now and say Holy shat they Making bank

[olevetonahill]

Lol. I think my combat pay was more than that.

Once they went to the All Volunteer Army the Pay went up a bunch


I will have to ask my dad what he got. I know he also got flight pay.

One of his friends in his squadron was a product of the Nazi breeding program. My father said he was an incredible person and had all the Aryan traits. Really a good looking guy and a fearless pilot. Sadly he was shot down and killed. That war was such a waste. We lost a bunch of friends over there.

Yer dad was in nam? If he was a Pilot then he was getting O pay which made us pissants look like paupers

[diverdog]

Once they went to the All Volunteer Army the Pay went up a bunch



Yer dad was in nam? If he was a Pilot then he was getting O pay which made us pissants look like paupers

He flew out of Bien Hua. My father in law flew out of Phu Bai. Dad had his tour extended during Tet and then when he got home he continued flying in and out of country for several more years as a cargo pilot.

Mom and Dad are in Hawaii right now reliving their R&R from 40 plus years ago.

[diverdog]

Hell that was as an E-4 , Combat Pay, Tax free.
When I was in basic the Base pay was 88 bucks of which I got 66. According to My Dad that was the same as HE got in the early 40s while He was training to go to the Pacific.

I see how much these kids get now and say Holy shat they Making bank

Before I got hurt I was an E6 on flying status. I was making the taxable equivalent of about $65,000 per year. They offered me a commission in the reserves and I was debating about taking it but it would have been a pay cut until I made Captain ( I believe). The problem is the job would have taken me off flying status and I love flying.

[sappstuf]

Hell that was as an E-4 , Combat Pay, Tax free.
When I was in basic the Base pay was 88 bucks of which I got 66. According to My Dad that was the same as HE got in the early 40s while He was training to go to the Pacific.

I see how much these kids get now and say Holy shat they Making bank

Beer is more expensive now though...

[olevetonahill]

Beer is more expensive now though...

There is that , I remember buying a case once when we were in base camp. Only 21 of em still had beer in em. They were the Old metal cans that ya had to use a church key on, some had rusted from the salt air on the ship transporting em to us.

[rock on sooner]

There is that , I remember buying a case once when we were in base camp. Only 21 of em still had beer in em. They were the Old metal cans that ya had to use a church key on, some had rusted from the salt air on the ship transporting em to us.

Heh, we had that problem in Pakistan...the beer would sit in containers in
Karachi in tha high heat then get shipped overland to Peshawar, about
1100 miles. By the time we got it was flat, tasted like metal. At least
they refrigerated it when it got to the base so it was cold. Talk about
heaven when I got home...cold, fresh, bubbly Coors, Bud, etc...

[olevetonahill]

Heh, we had that problem in Pakistan...the beer would sit in containers in
Karachi in tha high heat then get shipped overland to Peshawar, about
1100 miles. By the time we got it was flat, tasted like metal. At least
they refrigerated it when it got to the base so it was cold. Talk about
heaven when I got home...cold, fresh, bubbly Coors, Bud, etc...

Good times were had by all
I Have never been a fan of Mac Puke but after a year of eatin C-rats and whatever else we could rustle up. My last 4 or5 weeks there I was dreamin of a Big Mac, Fries and a Strawberry Milkshake .
Dont know why those items but I was so starved for decent food I guess I dreamed MacPuke was decent

[Harry Beanbag]

Before I got hurt I was an E6 on flying status. I was making the taxable equivalent of about $65,000 per year. They offered me a commission in the reserves and I was debating about taking it but it would have been a pay cut until I made Captain ( I believe). The problem is the job would have taken me off flying status and I love flying.

Damn, how long ago was that? When I got out in '98 as an E-5 with some special duty pay I was making like $30-35K, IIRC. Spread out over 100+ hours a week that wasn't very much.

[diverdog]

Damn, how long ago was that? When I got out in '98 as an E-5 with some special duty pay I was making like $30-35K, IIRC. Spread out over 100+ hours a week that wasn't very much.

You know Bean I could very well have my facts wrong. It was pretty early when I wrote that. Now I am including all pay including base plus I was getting almost all my pay tax exempt. I think my flight pay was $350 per month. Base was around $2800. Then you have all the other allowances.

[Harry Beanbag]

You know Bean I could very well have my facts wrong. It was pretty early when I wrote that. Now I am including all pay including base plus I was getting almost all my pay tax exempt. I think my flight pay was $350 per month. Base was around $2800. Then you have all the other allowances.

Again, when was it? Not sure what being tax exempt has to do with gross pay.

[soonercruiser]

Vet I believe Cruiser was a dentist in the AF for most of his career. We need dentist and I am very appreciative of his service especially in Vietnam. The problem that I have with Cruiser is he complains constantly about any adjustments to his military retirement. My old man is a retired O 6 as well and I have never once heard him complain about his retirement. In fact, he is grateful for how generious it is. My father will make far more in retirement than he made in his entire 26 year career. He began collecting at age 48 (I believe). He will be 80 this year. If I had to guess we have paid him in excess of $1.5 million dollars plus free medical since he retired.

The facts are pretty straight foward. If we are going to continue to pay federal employees gold standard retirements then taxes have to go up on everyone. I am fine with that but don't bitch to me how rough you have it when the folks in the non-government world are getting hammered. Our military retirements are extremely generous and the entire system is a fairly recent addition to military service. It use to be you got a very small stipen when you left the service. The Pentegon has recognized that out of control cost on retirement is going to continue to eat at their budget. If we are going to continue to have a military like we have now then we have to pay more in taxes and charge a little more for medical care from retirees.

BTW if you are a disabled vet you get your bennies tax free as far as I know. I get over $700/mo and I have never reported it on my taxes. And if you see me posting at such late hours it is usually because my injury still hurts enough that it wakes me up at night. Well that and tonight I am furious with our coaching staff.

The problem with Diver is that he does not tell the truth! At the very least he exaggerates to a high degree.
The only times that I have mention military pay and benefits, is when some brings up the subject....LIKE DIVER COMPALINING ABOUT MILITARY RETIREES AND BENEFITS!!!
That was the case with this thread.
And Diver, in order to make a point calls me out personally!!
Great work Diver!

**And the main point to be taken away is that the Left, people like Diver and the Dems (Clinton, Obama, Carter and the like) seem to only be able to take away from the military and their families.....THEY NEVER GET AROUND TO CUTTING ANY SOCIAL PROGRAMS THAT ENSLAVE THE POOR!! NEVER!!!!
That fact, I will stand by.

[diverdog]

Again, when was it? Not sure what being tax exempt has to do with gross pay.

Mid 90's. You have to remember that when comparing military pay to civilian pay you have to factor in the fact that a lot of the pay is tax exempt. Your BAS, BHA, flight pay, hazardous duty pay are all tax free. Plus we were not taxed on all our pay because we were flying down range. So if I were making say $3000 per month that would be the civilian equivalent to $3700 per month or more.

[diverdog]

The problem with Diver is that he does not tell the truth! At the very least he exaggerates to a high degree.
The only times that I have mention military pay and benefits, is when some brings up the subject....LIKE DIVER COMPALINING ABOUT MILITARY RETIREES AND BENEFITS!!!
That was the case with this thread.
And Diver, in order to make a point calls me out personally!!
Great work Diver!

**And the main point to be taken away is that the Left, people like Diver and the Dems (Clinton, Obama, Carter and the like) seem to only be able to take away from the military and their families.....THEY NEVER GET AROUND TO CUTTING ANY SOCIAL PROGRAMS THAT ENSLAVE THE POOR!! NEVER!!!!
That fact, I will stand by.


Wow did I get under your skin.

First I admitted I may have been wrong about my pay. So lets see.

I was a Tech Sgt on flying status with 12 years in. Here is the current pay in 2013 from military pay charts:

Base pay: $3495
BAS: $1605. (Dover with dependents).
BAH: $352.27
Flight pay: $300
hazardous duty. $200. ( had to guess this one)

Total: $5952.

Annual pay: $71,424.

Next Clinton cut welfare. I favor cutting HUD, Welfare and SSI. I do not think there are any sacred cows when it comes to budgeting.

Third I used a military pay calculator to calculate the pay for an O6 retiring in 2011 with 26 years of service and it showed $6204/mo. At a 1% inflation rate ( cola) the pay will grow to $7000 plus by 2025. I could be wrong but I bet it is close.

So lets assume that a person goes into the military as an officer at the age of 21. After 26 years they retire at the age of 47 and get their pension. That person lives to be 78 ( avg life span). That means this retiree will collect $6204x12 mo x 31 years = $2,307,888! That does not include medical or cola above 1%, or SS.

I linked an article that apparently you did not read. The article talked about a huge problem of federal retirees leaving their job, collecting a pension, going to another government job getting paid and then getting another pension. Anyway you slice it this is a huge transfer of wealth from the tax payer to a federal retiree. Military retirement was suppose to be retirement not retire and get another government job. The article suggested putting a 15% surcharge tax on anyone getting more than one government check.

I would have never attacked you if you were not so hypocritical. You have consistently bad mouthed public employee unions, auto unions and other government workers. Yet they do not get nearly as good a deal as you do in retirement. The truth is that you will most likely receive in excess of $3,000,000 in pay and benefits in your lifetime from all of your government checks (military pay, SS, State of Oklahoma, Tricare, Medicare). (By the way this number blew me away when I looked into it) Cruiser the fact of the matter is that you get a better deal than 99% of Americans. You have absolutely no room to bitch. Nor do you have the right to sit in judgement of other government employees.

The military has got to be cut. It is eating us alive. We do not need to be the worlds policemen.

Fell free to attack me. Just so you know the taxes taken out of my last quarterly bonus was more than my annual DAV check.

[cleller]

I will have to ask my dad what he got. I know he also got flight pay.

One of his friends in his squadron was a product of the Nazi breeding program. My father said he was an incredible person and had all the Aryan traits. Really a good looking guy and a fearless pilot. Sadly he was shot down and killed. That war was such a waste. We lost a bunch of friends over there.

This is off topic, but any of you with ties or interests in Nam should definitely see the movie "Little Deiter Needs to Fly". Bad title, great documentary movie by some famous filmmaker Werner Herzog.
Its about Deiter Dengler, a german kid from WWII era that came to the US specifically to fly for our military. He busted his butt and eventually became a naval aviator flying in Nam. He was shot down, captured, tortured, and ultimately escaped. An iron man. Fantastic movie.

The movie Rescue Dawn was based on Dengler's capture and escape.

[diverdog]

This is off topic, but any of you with ties or interests in Nam should definitely see the movie "Little Deiter Needs to Fly". Bad title, great documentary movie by some famous filmmaker Werner Herzog.
Its about Deiter Dengler, a german kid from WWII era that came to the US specifically to fly for our military. He busted his butt and eventually became a naval aviator flying in Nam. He was shot down, captured, tortured, and ultimately escaped. An iron man. Fantastic movie.

The movie Rescue Dawn was based on Dengler's capture and escape.

We learned about him in SERE school.

[FaninAma]

Oh no, I don't fault the retirees. However, I am starting to understand why so many of my peers are defying their elders and voting with the Democrats, namely Obama.

I'm not there (yet), don't worry.

This makes no sense at all. The GOP are the ones trying to reform the system. The Democrats are the ones who are fine with young people continuing top pay into a system that , as it stands now, will not be there for them when they retire. Pardon my French but how f'ing stupid are the members of the younger generation these days?

If I were voting strictly my pocketbook I would support Obama, too. I can start receiving SS in 7 years and at my level of income I only pay FICA taxes on about 1/2 of my gross earnings. But it would be very selfish of me to think it is okay for my kids to have to pay for old geezers like me as well as be responsible for the immoral deficit being created.

My kids and your kids deserve better from their elders and their government.

[FaninAma]

Diverdog, you shouldn't be questioning what Cruiser gets. You shoud instead be asking why I see at least 15 patients a day(when I am working straight OP clinics) that have had their kids into the clinic on the taxpayer dime(Medicaid, IHS) for trivial BS. A lot of them will go to the ER and then come into my clinic for the exact same trivial symptoms because they didn't like what the ER doctor told them. I have 2 and 3 year old patients that have been in to see a physician or other provider 40 to 50 times in those 2 to 3 years. 40 to 50 times! Could you afford that?

Also, at least twice a month I see babies delivered to mothers who have had 3 or more children on the government dime yet have legal custody of none of them because they are horrible mothers. How insane is that?

Government funded health care is rife with abuse and fraud and it is about to get worse under the ACA.

Call me cynical and unempathetic but at this stage in my career I am of the opinion that the biggest red flag that you might not be a good parent is the fact that you have not thought out or prepared for the financial consequences of having and raising children....especially if you keep havng children with the expectation that the tax payers will provide for all of their needs. I still manage to separate my feelings for the kids from my feelings for their parents but in the end it is a system that is built to fail, IMO, because it requires no accountability from those who take advantage of it. And what kind of life lesson is that to teach your kids?

[Soonerjeepman]

get use to it FIA...

middle class, conservative folks are having 2-3 kids, poor uneducated, welfare folks are having 4-6 kids...it already showed this election. The votes are already in...sucks.

Story about my bro, he's a rheumatologist Mississippi, had a patient that he wouldn't give meds to because his BW came back with dope and coke. The guy refused to leave until he got his $3 (yes $3.00) co-pay back...that is the type of folks we are dealing with.

[diverdog]

Diverdog, you shouldn't be questioning what Cruiser gets. You shoud instead be asking why I see at least 15 patients a day(when I am working straight OP clinics) that have had their kids into the clinic on the taxpayer dime(Medicaid, IHS) for trivial BS. A lot of them will go to the ER and then come into my clinic for the exact same trivial symptoms because they didn't like what the ER doctor told them. I have 2 and 3 year old patients that have been in to see a physician or other provider 40 to 50 times in those 2 to 3 years. 40 to 50 times! Could you afford that?

Also, at least twice a month I see babies delivered to mothers who have had 3 or more children on the government dime yet have legal custody of none of them because they are horrible mothers. How insane is that?

Government funded health care is rife with abuse and fraud and it is about to get worse under the ACA.

Call me cynical and unempathetic but at this stage in my career I am of the opinion that the biggest red flag that you might not be a good parent is the fact that you have not thought out or prepared for the financial consequences of having and raising children....especially if you keep havng children with the expectation that the tax payers will provide for all of their needs. I still manage to separate my feelings for the kids from my feelings for their parents but in the end it is a system that is built to fail, IMO, because it requires no accountability from those who take advantage of it. And what kind of life lesson is that to teach your kids?

You sure are one judgemental SOB. Bad parent, huh? My oldest just made Eagle Scout at the ripe old age of 14. He has been on two high adventure trips, is in the top 3 of his class and wants to go to MIT. My youngest is 12, a Star Scout soon to be Life Scout. He going on his first high adventure at 13 and he is also a straight A student and wants to go to the USNA. I spend most of my weekends camping with them and going on 30-40 mile backpacking trips. They have learned how to hunt, fish and be frugal with money. Both of them mow lawns for money. Both have acted as chaplains in Scouts and youth groups. They hunt, fish, shoot and help their grandfather train dogs. I could go on. Suffice it to say my kids are probably better prepared than most if something happens.

I defy you to show where I have never said we should not cut welfare and other social programs. We need to attack the budget but we should not balance on the backs of poor children and of the elderly that cannot work. And it is the medical profession that is complicit in a lot of the fraud, waste and abuse in medicare and medicaid.

So what is your solution with these 2-3 year olds you see? Let em die? Refuse treatment? What would you do?

I am not in a panic over the economy and I do not feel like balancing the budget is our highest priority. We need to start to address it but we do not need to slash it by 30% right now.

[pphilfran]

You sure are one judgemental SOB. Bad parent, huh? My oldest just made Eagle Scout at the ripe old age of 14. He has been on two high adventure trips, is in the top 3 of his class and wants to go to MIT. My youngest is 12, a Star Scout soon to be Life Scout. He going on his first high adventure at 13 and he is also a straight A student and wants to go to the USNA. I spend most of my weekends camping with them and going on 30-40 mile backpacking trips. They have learned how to hunt, fish and be frugal with money. Both of them mow lawns for money. Both have acted as chaplains in Scouts and youth groups. They hunt, fish, shoot and help their grandfather train dogs. I could go on. Suffice it to say my kids are probably better prepared than most if something happens.

I defy you to show where I have never said we should not cut welfare and other social programs. We need to attack the budget but we should not balance on the backs of poor children and of the elderly that cannot work. And it is the medical profession that is complicit in a lot of the fraud, waste and abuse in medicare and medicaid.

So what is your solution with these 2-3 year olds you see? Let em die? Refuse treatment? What would you do?

I am not in a panic over the economy and I do not feel like balancing the budget is our highest priority. We need to start to address it but we do not need to slash it by 30% right now.

Reasonable post

[FaninAma]

You sure are one judgemental SOB. Bad parent, huh? My oldest just made Eagle Scout at the ripe old age of 14. He has been on two high adventure trips, is in the top 3 of his class and wants to go to MIT. My youngest is 12, a Star Scout soon to be Life Scout. He going on his first high adventure at 13 and he is also a straight A student and wants to go to the USNA. I spend most of my weekends camping with them and going on 30-40 mile backpacking trips. They have learned how to hunt, fish and be frugal with money. Both of them mow lawns for money. Both have acted as chaplains in Scouts and youth groups. They hunt, fish, shoot and help their grandfather train dogs. I could go on. Suffice it to say my kids are probably better prepared than most if something happens.

I defy you to show where I have never said we should not cut welfare and other social programs. We need to attack the budget but we should not balance on the backs of poor children and of the elderly that cannot work. And it is the medical profession that is complicit in a lot of the fraud, waste and abuse in medicare and medicaid.

So what is your solution with these 2-3 year olds you see? Let em die? Refuse treatment? What would you do?

I am not in a panic over the economy and I do not feel like balancing the budget is our highest priority. We need to start to address it but we do not need to slash it by 30% right now.


I wasn't aware that you parented kids expecting others to be financially repsonsible for them. If you didn't then your outrage is misguided and hollow.

What do you do for a living? Are you working among those who allow themselves to be seduced by the free handouts and choose over and over again to take the easy way out? I have for the past 23 years so unless you have walked in my shoes and seen the absolutely devestating effects of allowing yourself and your kids to become addicted to governmemt handouts you just need to STFU with the condemnations. Take my word for it when I tell you this dependency is passed down generation to generation and it robs people of their self-sufficiency and self-esteem.

You know what judgemental is? It is acromonious, know-it-all individuals like yourself who think because they volunteer for a couple of charities that you know the score regarding the poor and the underpriviliged.

I congratulate you for the success of your kids but I really doubt that you provided the sorry excuse as a parent of living your life day to day and never ever thinking ahead about the consequences of not taking control of your life and planning ahead for the sake of the children you brought into this world.

i don't care if you think my attitude is harsh and judgemental. I can assure you it is far less harsh that the attitude by so many that they are not absolutely reposnible for their children emotionally, financially and spiritually and that that responsibility can somehow morally be delegated to others.

And the fact you don't recognize the peril to your kids that the out of control deficit spending our government presents suprises me little. And you are just an excuse provider and because there are so many like you this country will never, ever get control of the problems associated with dependency on government handouts. There will always be poor children and elderly. You and others like you allow politicians to use them as an excuse to establish themselves in a permanent ruling class that takes from other with the pretense of redistributing it to the less fortunate when their real motives are to seize and hold onto the control of how this wealth is spent because the ability to do this represents immense power over others. They want this power to take and redistribute. They crave this power. And individuals like you play right into their hands.

And shame on you for having so little faith in your fellow human beings that we can be charitable to others without being forced to do so by the elitists and social engineers in big government. You are the one who is judgemental because you have judge your fellow man to be lacking in human decency and the goodness of spirit to do the right thing without the oversight of distant, dispassionate government politicians and beaurocrats.

life is not fair and there will always be the haves and have-nots but I find it morally lazy to turn charity over to a big, impersonal government because it makes certain segments of this country(i.e. progressives) feel better about themselves without really getting their hands dirty. But by being morally lazy like the progressives are you allow the politicians to entrap more and more individuals and families in their horrible system of dependency which insures they will have even more power over our society and government. So go ahead and call me judgemental and you go ahead and continue to provide excuses and cover for the politicians and their friends who derive the most benefit from our broken system.

[yermom]

This is off topic, but any of you with ties or interests in Nam should definitely see the movie "Little Deiter Needs to Fly". Bad title, great documentary movie by some famous filmmaker Werner Herzog.
Its about Deiter Dengler, a german kid from WWII era that came to the US specifically to fly for our military. He busted his butt and eventually became a naval aviator flying in Nam. He was shot down, captured, tortured, and ultimately escaped. An iron man. Fantastic movie.

The movie Rescue Dawn was based on Dengler's capture and escape.

i'm pretty sure Werner Herzog did Rescue Dawn as well

[pphilfran]

Why are your so belligerent towards DD?

He damn sure understands the situation in regards to welfare and the abuses within...he also shows a good understanding of the costs involved in the retirement funding to our servicemen and the long term implications of the payment growth over the long term...

I damn sure don't always agree with everything he thinks and believes but he does offer ideas that can be built on or slightly modified to help resolve the future financial crisis that is heading our way...

At some point in time all aspects will need to be looked at closely and cuts made or age requirements increased...

[FaninAma]

Why are your so belligerent towards DD?

He damn sure understands the situation in regards to welfare and the abuses within...he also shows a good understanding of the costs involved in the retirement funding to our servicemen and the long term implications of the payment growth over the long term...

I damn sure don't always agree with everything he thinks and believes but he does offer ideas that can be built on or slightly modified to help resolve the future financial crisis that is heading our way...

At some point in time all aspects will need to be looked at closely and cuts made or age requirements increased...

Because he makes excuses for the politicians and those who have a vested interest in seeing this corrupt system continue and expand. And because he finds it appropriate to call me a judgemental SOB because I find the system and its consequences abhorrent and damaging, especially to those it entraps, and because I feel our society can provide help to those who need it without making them dependent on a group of self-serving elitists who use the system to keep themselves in power.

Unless enough individuals reject this system outright instead of trusting the politicians to tinker with it the problems will continue and more and more individuals will fall prey to becoming dependent on the system and those who operate it and profit from it.

[soonercruiser]

Wow did I get under your skin.

First I admitted I may have been wrong about my pay. So lets see.

I was a Tech Sgt on flying status with 12 years in. Here is the current pay in 2013 from military pay charts:

Base pay: $3495
BAS: $1605. (Dover with dependents).
BAH: $352.27
Flight pay: $300
hazardous duty. $200. ( had to guess this one)

Total: $5952.

Annual pay: $71,424.

Next Clinton cut welfare. I favor cutting HUD, Welfare and SSI. I do not think there are any sacred cows when it comes to budgeting.

Third I used a military pay calculator to calculate the pay for an O6 retiring in 2011 with 26 years of service and it showed $6204/mo. At a 1% inflation rate ( cola) the pay will grow to $7000 plus by 2025. I could be wrong but I bet it is close.

So lets assume that a person goes into the military as an officer at the age of 21. After 26 years they retire at the age of 47 and get their pension. That person lives to be 78 ( avg life span). That means this retiree will collect $6204x12 mo x 31 years = $2,307,888! That does not include medical or cola above 1%, or SS.

I linked an article that apparently you did not read. The article talked about a huge problem of federal retirees leaving their job, collecting a pension, going to another government job getting paid and then getting another pension. Anyway you slice it this is a huge transfer of wealth from the tax payer to a federal retiree. Military retirement was suppose to be retirement not retire and get another government job. The article suggested putting a 15% surcharge tax on anyone getting more than one government check.

I would have never attacked you if you were not so hypocritical. You have consistently bad mouthed public employee unions, auto unions and other government workers. Yet they do not get nearly as good a deal as you do in retirement. The truth is that you will most likely receive in excess of $3,000,000 in pay and benefits in your lifetime from all of your government checks (military pay, SS, State of Oklahoma, Tricare, Medicare). (By the way this number blew me away when I looked into it) Cruiser the fact of the matter is that you get a better deal than 99% of Americans. You have absolutely no room to bitch. Nor do you have the right to sit in judgement of other government employees.

The military has got to be cut. It is eating us alive. We do not need to be the worlds policemen.

Fell free to attack me. Just so you know the taxes taken out of my last quarterly bonus was more than my annual DAV check.

Diver, I prayed that you will receive healing for whatever eats inside of you that makes you attack full military retirees so much.
Yup! I am damn luck fella to have my military retirement benefits.
But, I paid for them. I was a line officer for 9 years before professional school. I was in over 10 years before I grossed over $20K in military pay!

And, especially during the Vietnam Era of our country, I MADE GOOD DECISIONS for myself and my family.
So, shoot me for being smart and lucky!
Shoot me again for being in a free country, where once I retired I could still work for the employer of my choice!
Shoot me! But, please quit being sooooo personally envious to the point of nastyness just because I made it!
You have done this wayyyy back from the time in the OUI forum.

Hypocritical, YOU SAY!
But, all I have been posting about is the UNFAIRNESS of Dem administrations and Congressperson always "going to the well" of cutting the military FIRST, and usually almost nothing else.
I have lived through many broken promises to our veterans and their famililes.
I want the President to act in the "balanced approach" that he promised and campaigned on.

In many other threads, I have discussed about needed changes to all the countries social and retirement programs. I have even posted about needed changes and cuts to programs that I will benefit from in the future!
YOU, SIR, ARE THE HYPOCRIT FOR IGNORING THOSE OCCASSIONS, and blindly posting your angry, evious attacks on me personally.
Again I pray for your healing!

But, I will not go quietly while our veterans and their families are again the primary target of cuts, with no other wasteful government program cuts in sight.
Those veretans and their families must be thanked, and promises kept for their service to the country!
If significant cuts are to be made - they must be balanced, and shared by those who have not contributed!

[soonercruiser]

BTW, Diver. You are giving Bill Clinton credit for reforming welfare!!!!????
GMAFB! How many times did the Repubican Congress bring welfare reform to Clinton's desk, before Dic Morris convinced him that it would be good for his legacy to sign it???
Geeeeeze!

[Turd_Ferguson]

I wasn't aware that you parented kids expecting others to be financially repsonsible for them. If you didn't then your outrage is misguided and hollow.

What do you do for a living? Are you working among those who allow themselves to be seduced by the free handouts and choose over and over again to take the easy way out? I have for the past 23 years so unless you have walked in my shoes and seen the absolutely devestating effects of allowing yourself and your kids to become addicted to governmemt handouts you just need to STFU with the condemnations. Take my word for it when I tell you this dependency is passed down generation to generation and it robs people of their self-sufficiency and self-esteem.

You know what judgemental is? It is acromonious, know-it-all individuals like yourself who think because they volunteer for a couple of charities that you know the score regarding the poor and the underpriviliged.

I congratulate you for the success of your kids but I really doubt that you provided the sorry excuse as a parent of living your life day to day and never ever thinking ahead about the consequences of not taking control of your life and planning ahead for the sake of the children you brought into this world.

i don't care if you think my attitude is harsh and judgemental. I can assure you it is far less harsh that the attitude by so many that they are not absolutely reposnible for their children emotionally, financially and spiritually and that that responsibility can somehow morally be delegated to others.

And the fact you don't recognize the peril to your kids that the out of control deficit spending our government presents suprises me little. And you are just an excuse provider and because there are so many like you this country will never, ever get control of the problems associated with dependency on government handouts. There will always be poor children and elderly. You and others like you allow politicians to use them as an excuse to establish themselves in a permanent ruling class that takes from other with the pretense of redistributing it to the less fortunate when their real motives are to seize and hold onto the control of how this wealth is spent because the ability to do this represents immense power over others. They want this power to take and redistribute. They crave this power. And individuals like you play right into their hands.

And shame on you for having so little faith in your fellow human beings that we can be charitable to others without being forced to do so by the elitists and social engineers in big government. You are the one who is judgemental because you have judge your fellow man to be lacking in human decency and the goodness of spirit to do the right thing without the oversight of distant, dispassionate government politicians and beaurocrats.

life is not fair and there will always be the haves and have-nots but I find it morally lazy to turn charity over to a big, impersonal government because it makes certain segments of this country(i.e. progressives) feel better about themselves without really getting their hands dirty. But by being morally lazy like the progressives are you allow the politicians to entrap more and more individuals and families in their horrible system of dependency which insures they will have even more power over our society and government. So go ahead and call me judgemental and you go ahead and continue to provide excuses and cover for the politicians and their friends who derive the most benefit from our broken system.

Reasonable post.

[diverdog]

I wasn't aware that you parented kids expecting others to be financially repsonsible for them. If you didn't then your outrage is misguided and hollow.

What do you do for a living? Are you working among those who allow themselves to be seduced by the free handouts and choose over and over again to take the easy way out? I have for the past 23 years so unless you have walked in my shoes and seen the absolutely devestating effects of allowing yourself and your kids to become addicted to governmemt handouts you just need to STFU with the condemnations. Take my word for it when I tell you this dependency is passed down generation to generation and it robs people of their self-sufficiency and self-esteem.

You know what judgemental is? It is acromonious, know-it-all individuals like yourself who think because they volunteer for a couple of charities that you know the score regarding the poor and the underpriviliged.

I congratulate you for the success of your kids but I really doubt that you provided the sorry excuse as a parent of living your life day to day and never ever thinking ahead about the consequences of not taking control of your life and planning ahead for the sake of the children you brought into this world.

i don't care if you think my attitude is harsh and judgemental. I can assure you it is far less harsh that the attitude by so many that they are not absolutely reposnible for their children emotionally, financially and spiritually and that that responsibility can somehow morally be delegated to others.

And the fact you don't recognize the peril to your kids that the out of control deficit spending our government presents suprises me little. And you are just an excuse provider and because there are so many like you this country will never, ever get control of the problems associated with dependency on government handouts. There will always be poor children and elderly. You and others like you allow politicians to use them as an excuse to establish themselves in a permanent ruling class that takes from other with the pretense of redistributing it to the less fortunate when their real motives are to seize and hold onto the control of how this wealth is spent because the ability to do this represents immense power over others. They want this power to take and redistribute. They crave this power. And individuals like you play right into their hands.

And shame on you for having so little faith in your fellow human beings that we can be charitable to others without being forced to do so by the elitists and social engineers in big government. You are the one who is judgemental because you have judge your fellow man to be lacking in human decency and the goodness of spirit to do the right thing without the oversight of distant, dispassionate government politicians and beaurocrats.

life is not fair and there will always be the haves and have-nots but I find it morally lazy to turn charity over to a big, impersonal government because it makes certain segments of this country(i.e. progressives) feel better about themselves without really getting their hands dirty. But by being morally lazy like the progressives are you allow the politicians to entrap more and more individuals and families in their horrible system of dependency which insures they will have even more power over our society and government. So go ahead and call me judgemental and you go ahead and continue to provide excuses and cover for the politicians and their friends who derive the most benefit from our broken system.

Wow you are out there..

I bet you benefit from the system way more than my family. Do you get paid through medicare and medicaid premiums? Does your hospital receive government support? How about payments through private insurers that are funded through state, county and city monies? Do you know what would happen if your hospital suddenly loses all its government funding and tax exempt status?

You cannot cut government enough to balance the budget. It is mathematically impossible. You can cut it some but the way out of our deficits and debts is to grow the economy at 3.5% per year or more. That increases taxes, creates jobs, lowers dependency and creates more wealth.

Show me anywhere on this thread that I supported anything that you are accusing me of? And I asked you a question, what do you propose to do with the young and elderly that cannot provide for themselves. Seems to me you are the expert so how about filling me in?

[diverdog]

BTW, Diver. You are giving Bill Clinton credit for reforming welfare!!!!????
GMAFB! How many times did the Repubican Congress bring welfare reform to Clinton's desk, before Dic Morris convinced him that it would be good for his legacy to sign it???
Geeeeeze!

Cruiser, there were several versions. Both sides wanted cuts. The Republicans got there way with more cuts. Overall it was a good partisan bill.

If anyone should get credit it was Tommy Thompson. He started the national debate.

[diverdog]

Diver, I prayed that you will receive healing for whatever eats inside of you that makes you attack full military retirees so much.
Yup! I am damn luck fella to have my military retirement benefits.
But, I paid for them. I was a line officer for 9 years before professional school. I was in over 10 years before I grossed over $20K in military pay!

And, especially during the Vietnam Era of our country, I MADE GOOD DECISIONS for myself and my family.
So, shoot me for being smart and lucky!
Shoot me again for being in a free country, where once I retired I could still work for the employer of my choice!
Shoot me! But, please quit being sooooo personally envious to the point of nastyness just because I made it!
You have done this wayyyy back from the time in the OUI forum.

Hypocritical, YOU SAY!
But, all I have been posting about is the UNFAIRNESS of Dem administrations and Congressperson always "going to the well" of cutting the military FIRST, and usually almost nothing else.
I have lived through many broken promises to our veterans and their famililes.
I want the President to act in the "balanced approach" that he promised and campaigned on.

In many other threads, I have discussed about needed changes to all the countries social and retirement programs. I have even posted about needed changes and cuts to programs that I will benefit from in the future!
YOU, SIR, ARE THE HYPOCRIT FOR IGNORING THOSE OCCASSIONS, and blindly posting your angry, evious attacks on me personally.
Again I pray for your healing!

But, I will not go quietly while our veterans and their families are again the primary target of cuts, with no other wasteful government program cuts in sight.
Those veretans and their families must be thanked, and promises kept for their service to the country!
If significant cuts are to be made - they must be balanced, and shared by those who have not contributed!

Cruiser:

The federal governments retirement plan faces almost as large a shortfall as SS. It is in serious need of reform. The problem is that it is not on many peoples radar screen.


. In all, the government committed more money to the 10 million former public servants last year than the $690 billion it paid to 54 million Social Security beneficiaries.






The retirement programs now have a $5.7 trillion unfunded liability, compared with a $6.5 trillion shortfall for Social Security. An unfunded liability is the difference between a program's projected costs and its projected revenues, both valued in today's dollars.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-10-11/federal-retirement-pension-benefits/50592474/1

[FaninAma]

Wow you are out there..

FYI.....you benefit from the system way more than my family. Do you get paid through medicare and medicaid premiums? Does your hospital receive government support? How about payments through private insurers that are funded through state, county and city monies? Any tax breaks we should know about Doc? How about student loans?

You cannot cut government enough to balance the budget. It is mathematically impossible. You can cut it some but the way out of our deficits and debts is to grow the economy at 3.5% per year or more. That increases taxes, creates jobs, lowers dependency and creates more wealth.

Show me anywhere on this thread that I supported any thing that you are accusing me of? And I asked you a question, what do you propose to do with the young and elderly that cannot provide for themselves. Seems to me you are the expert so how about filling me in?

And you have your head buried in the sand. I was in private practice for 16 years and took Medicaid even though I didn't have to. Medicaid in private practice doesn't even cover office overhead. The same goes for hospitals. I guess it is better than taking nothing. I've contributed time to private charitable clinics that provided much better care and services to the poor than the federal tax-payer programs do.

It's not about the money. It's about the way the federal goverernmemt conducts its programs. There is no accountability or expectaions of responsibility from the recipients of federal aid. Charity is not supposed to work that way. Charity is a 2 way street.

See, that's why your uninformed posts irritate me. You think you know what is going on but you don't. You want to do something for poor kids but you don't want to have to work too hard at it or pay a lot out of pocket so the perfect solution for you is to have the government handle all the dirty work. That way your conscience is at ease and you can sleep at night. Big Daddy government will take care or all the unfortunate people in the country....right?

If there is one thing I am convinced of at this point in my career is that kids deserve and need parents who put their interests above everything else. They need parents who have their priorities straight. They need parents who think about the consequences of their actions and plan out things in their lives. They need parents who recognize the huge responsibility they take on when they decide to have kids. They need parents who are mature enough and disciplined enough to be able to support them and meet their needs emotionally, financially and physically. Parents who can't take care of themselves in these areas can't possibly meet the needs of their kids.

A doctor can't make up for parents who act irresponsibly and don't put their kids first. Neither can a teacher, a pastor, or even a community charity....no matter how empathetic and caring they are. They can make it a little easier for kids with irresponsible or incapable parents but they can't come any where close to helping these kids reach their potential like parents can. They can do a lot better job than the government and government programs which are just a poor, impersonal substitutes and actually end up being enablers and promoters of bad, irresponsible parents because no changes in behavior is required in return for assistance.

By every measurable standard kids in this country, in general, are doing worse in achievement, health outcomes and prospects for the future even as the government has gotten more involved in their lives. Cause and effect. Your empathy is well-intentioned, I am sure, but your logic and ability to look honestly at things you support in this area are hugely misguided. Quite simply, you have no clue what you are talking about.

Who should care for the elderly and poor who can't care for themselves? Who did it before the smarter-than-everybody else progressives got involved? Charity needs to be as local as possible. Centralizing charity with a behemoth federal government is wasteful and inflexible. Governement program administrative costs and waste take a huge percentage of funds away from those who are supposed to be receiving the help. The private charitable services like he Catholic Charitable services have accomplished far more good throughout the history of this country than the federal government did.

You lack faith that this country will take care of its poor and elderly without the government directing us to do it. That is typical of progressives.

[cleller]

FanInAma makes a great point about certain segments of the welfare class that use ER's as their everyday medical outlet, and use it whenever they get the whim, because they don't pay anything. Some also use ambulances for taxis on their way. Its ridiculous, and they don't even realize it.

Its normal to them, because that's the culture. Of course the only real cure would be for these people to understand the costs associated with such visits, because they come out of their pocket. That's not going to happen, though.

I have the minority view that everyone should pay some taxes, even if it is very small amount. Likewise, maybe everyone should pay something for a visit to a doctor or ER. If they have no funds, lets just deduct it from their monthly check, or credit, whatever. Surely our system is sophisticated enough to due this with all the SSN number record keeping that goes on. People should equate payment with services at some point.

If the government can catch every mistake I make figuring the cost basis on a stock sale, they can charge a little for ER visits.

[pphilfran]

FA, you are so laser focused on reducing the deficit and debt you miss most of the points DD brings up...

Take a step back and look at what he is really saying...many of the things you suggest would cripple the economy for many years and that crippled economy would only add to our debt, not reduce it...

No matter how much you rant about the low payments made by Medicaid you ignore much of the other funding provided by the government into the healthcare system...

Don't get me wrong...I think government intervention is obscene at current levels and needs to be lowered...but to do those cuts with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel is not what we need at the current time...

I assure you both DD and I want and expect cuts to be made...but not to the extent that it harms the economy...and our debt is not at such high levels at the current time that drastic measures need to be taken...now, if nothing or only token measures are taken over the next five years or so then we will more than likely be in deep trouble but if we are smart and take it one small step at at time we can get ourselves out of this mess with little or no impact on economic growth...

[pphilfran]

FanInAma makes a great point about certain segments of the welfare class that use ER's as their everyday medical outlet, and use it whenever they get the whim, because they don't pay anything. Some also use ambulances for taxis on their way. Its ridiculous, and they don't even realize it.

Its normal to them, because that's the culture. Of course the only real cure would be for these people to understand the costs associated with such visits, because they come out of their pocket. That's not going to happen, though.

I have the minority view that everyone should pay some taxes, even if it is very small amount. Likewise, maybe everyone should pay something for a visit to a doctor or ER. If they have no funds, lets just deduct it from their monthly check, or credit, whatever. Surely our system is sophisticated enough to due this with all the SSN number record keeping that goes on. People should equate payment with services at some point.

If the government can catch every mistake I make figuring the cost basis on a stock sale, they can charge a little for ER visits.

Some good points...no co pay healthcare is part of the problem...and I agree with your statement that everyone should pay some taxes...even if it is only a dollar...

[Midtowner]

FA, you are so laser focused on reducing the deficit and debt you miss most of the points DD brings up...

Take a step back and look at what he is really saying...many of the things you suggest would cripple the economy for many years and that crippled economy would only add to our debt, not reduce it...

No matter how much you rant about the low payments made by Medicaid you ignore much of the other funding provided by the government into the healthcare system...

Don't get me wrong...I think government intervention is obscene at current levels and needs to be lowered...but to do those cuts with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel is not what we need at the current time...

I assure you both DD and I want and expect cuts to be made...but not to the extent that it harms the economy...and our debt is not at such high levels at the current time that drastic measures need to be taken...now, if nothing or only token measures are taken over the next five years or so then we will more than likely be in deep trouble but if we are smart and take it one small step at at time we can get ourselves out of this mess with little or no impact on economic growth...

What FA and his cohorts fail to realize is that deficit spending is absolutely 100% vital to protecting our current anemic economic growth. Yank out deficit spending? That's a trillion or so less money in the economy. Can anyone imagine such a dramatic economic reduction occurring overnight? The only reasonable or even arguably possible way out of this mess is to focus on economic growth--the good long-term kind, not the bad housing bubble sort.

Spending should be and can be "smart" spending. Instead of army and air force bases overseas, move 'em home to guard the Messican and Canadian borders. Instead of spending money in places like Pakistan, which probably don't provide major markets for U.S. imports, spend that money on social programs to help our own needy.

What I've read in this thread is this whole "us against them" theme. I've worked around "them" enough to realize that yes, these monsters who just devour and expect more do exist, but they really aren't the main people served by these programs. So many of my clients are the working poor and they do qualify for Medicaid while doing completely awful jobs none of us would want to do for terrible pay. One of the worst things about Medicaid is that I have actually seen some of my clients choose to work jobs with low wages in order to qualify for Medicaid because they are often court ordered to provide something for their children and there just aren't too many good options out there for folks in the middle who earn $12 or so/hour. and to cross the $15 threshold on up, you've got to have some kind of marketable skill.

[diverdog]

FA, you are so laser focused on reducing the deficit and debt you miss most of the points DD brings up...

Take a step back and look at what he is really saying...many of the things you suggest would cripple the economy for many years and that crippled economy would only add to our debt, not reduce it...

No matter how much you rant about the low payments made by Medicaid you ignore much of the other funding provided by the government into the healthcare system...

Don't get me wrong...I think government intervention is obscene at current levels and needs to be lowered...but to do those cuts with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel is not what we need at the current time...

I assure you both DD and I want and expect cuts to be made...but not to the extent that it harms the economy...and our debt is not at such high levels at the current time that drastic measures need to be taken...now, if nothing or only token measures are taken over the next five years or so then we will more than likely be in deep trouble but if we are smart and take it one small step at at time we can get ourselves out of this mess with little or no impact on economic growth...


Phil:

I think we need to work on the low hanging fruit right now. Like you suggested raise the retirement age for SS and Medicare. While we are at it raise the retirement age for federal pensions including military pensions. We can do that right now and not hurt the economy. It will also solve some long range problems. I think you could also means test some benefits right now and reduce some benefits at the upper level which could save money. We should also reinstate the tax on stock trades. It was a fractional tax but would raise a lot of money.

One of my friends said another way that we could reduce health care cost is to work on getting our population in shape and to lose weight.

I am also sold on massive development of our gas fields.

[pphilfran]

Good post, Mid...

I completely support bringing a large segment of our troops home and spending money here instead of overseas...if we spend 50 billion less in Europe and spend that 50 billion here we are adding 50 billion in stimulus and not have to cut the war machine a penny over the short term...hell, we could cut the 50 billion overseas, save 25 billion, and "only" spend 25 billion here and we would be spending less and still add stim...

[pphilfran]

Phil:

I think we need to work on the low hanging fruit right now. Like you suggested raise the retirement age for SS and Medicare. While we are at it raise the retirement age for federal pensions including military pensions. We can do that right now and not hurt the economy. It will also solve some long range problems. I think you could also means test some benefits right now and reduce some benefits at the upper level which could save money. We should also reinstate the tax on stock trades. It was a fractional tax but would raise a lot of money.

One of my friends said another way that we could reduce health care cost is to work on getting our population in shape and to lose weight.

I am also sold on massive development of our gas fields.

I agree on all points...but getting our populace into shape is not an easy task...I have no answer to that problem...

Years ago you brought up freezing spending at current levels (a point I wish I could take credit) and let inflation eat away the deficit...to bad we didn't implement your idea back then...

[diverdog]

I agree on all points...but getting our populace into shape is not an easy task...I have no answer to that problem...

Years ago you brought up freezing spending at current levels (a point I wish I could take credit) and let inflation eat away the deficit...to bad we didn't implement your idea back then...

Yeah I have no idea how to get America to lose weight. Hell I can't get my wife to lose 20 pounds.

We could still freeze the budget. The problem is the baby boomers. Somehow we are going to have to figure out how to fund their retirement.

Are you watching 60 Minutes? Scary report on robotics.

[Midtowner]

Yeah I have no idea how to get America to lose weight.

Could start by structuring tax subsidies to improve urban infill, subsidizing local governments for making cities more walkable and creating viable public transit options for all. We need to be looking at more efficient ways to house our people and move them all closer together. The automobile, I think, is right at the heart of most of America's weight problem. We sit on our butts all the way to work and when we get to work, we sit on our butts for another 8 hours. I haven't done the research, but I'll bet there's a strong correlation between the availability of high-density mass transit options like subways and light rail with lower obesity rates.


We could still freeze the budget. The problem is the baby boomers. Somehow we are going to have to figure out how to fund their retirement.

Are you watching 60 Minutes? Scary report on robotics.

Robotics is nothing new, and really, it's America's best chance at becoming a manufacturing powerhouse. There will still be a few highly paid jobs for machinists and engineers to maintain and troubleshoot the robots.

[diverdog]

Because he makes excuses for the politicians and those who have a vested interest in seeing this corrupt system continue and expand. And because he finds it appropriate to call me a judgemental SOB because I find the system and its consequences abhorrent and damaging, especially to those it entraps, and because I feel our society can provide help to those who need it without making them dependent on a group of self-serving elitists who use the system to keep themselves in power.

Unless enough individuals reject this system outright instead of trusting the politicians to tinker with it the problems will continue and more and more individuals will fall prey to becoming dependent on the system and those who operate it and profit from it.

No I called you a judgmental SOB because you said I was a bad parent. How in the **** did you make that leap? Do you think I am on welfare because I am not. I pay a lot of taxes including estimate quarterly taxes. Both my wife and I are professionals. Our kids do not want for anything nor are they spoiled.


Call me cynical and unempathetic but at this stage in my career I am of the opinion that the biggest red flag that you might not be a good parent is the fact that you have not thought out or prepared for the financial consequences of having and raising children.

Where did I make such a statement?


Because he makes excuses for the politicians and those who have a vested interest in seeing this corrupt system continue and expand.

Is it because I said I do not want children to starve. Is that it?

You cannot realistically get rid of welfare for decades. You can start to cut it but if you get rid of it tomorrow the ripple effect through the economy would be staggering.

Fanin: You continue to attribute a lot of things to me that I did not write or express. Did I vote for Obama...yes. Does it mean I agree with every thing he does? Hardly. In fact, the single reason I voted for him is that I feared the Romney would take us to war with Iran which would devastate this nation. Since my boys are getting close to the age for serving I voted in my own self interest. Both my dad and I have served in conflict and I felt that was enough for one family. I have no problem voting for a Republican if I feel comfortable with them. In fact, I would defy you to find any post where I bad mouthed Romney. I cannot remember a one other than his wanting to bomb Iran. Now I have expressed contempt for the Republicans on many positions as I have on many Democrat positions.

If it were up to me I would fire every last one of them in DC. That is how much I care about either party.

Finally, I appreciate your concern for the debt. However, your solutions are unrealistic and would lead to more problems than they would solve. Do we need to cut government? Yes. But we also need to grow the economy first and then start to make smart cuts. I know I advocate gutting defense but realistically it has to be done over a long period of time or it will be harmful to our economy. The same goes for entitlements and government retirement. The cure cannot be worse than the disease.

[diverdog]

Why are your so belligerent towards DD?

He damn sure understands the situation in regards to welfare and the abuses within...he also shows a good understanding of the costs involved in the retirement funding to our servicemen and the long term implications of the payment growth over the long term...

I damn sure don't always agree with everything he thinks and believes but he does offer ideas that can be built on or slightly modified to help resolve the future financial crisis that is heading our way...

At some point in time all aspects will need to be looked at closely and cuts made or age requirements increased...

Phil:

I have been looking into the federal retirement system and it is out of control. I think it is underfunded by $5.7 trillion dollars. We just cannot afford it.

In some respects I feel bad for picking on cruiser because he happens to be unlucky enough to have the same benefits as my dad and I know what pops gets. Dad and I have talked about it and he agrees with me that the military retirement system is out of control. So is the rest of the federal retirement system for that fact. Both of us feel we should bump the military retirement age to 62 to keep it funded. Even at 62 it would be a very good deal and I doubt it would hurt retention. No other company out there offers such a good deal for its employees.

As I have said a dozen times before the next big crisis in this nation will be retirement. It is going to hit us like a ton of bricks because so few people are ready for it.

[Midtowner]

Cruiser might've known my grandpa--retired back in the 80's from the Army as a full colonel, also a dentist.

[sappstuf]

Phil:

I have been looking into the federal retirement system and it is out of control. I think it is underfunded by $5.7 trillion dollars. We just cannot afford it.

In some respects I feel bad for picking on cruiser because he happens to be unlucky enough to have the same benefits as my dad and I know what pops gets. Dad and I have talked about it and he agrees with me that the military retirement system is out of control. So is the rest of the federal retirement system for that fact. Both of us feel we should bump the military retirement age to 62 to keep it funded. Even at 62 it would be a very good deal and I doubt it would hurt retention. No other company out there offers such a good deal for its employees.

As I have said a dozen times before the next big crisis in this nation will be retirement. It is going to hit us like a ton of bricks because so few people are ready for it.

What your father gets as a retired Colonel isn't even in the same ballpark as an E-6 with 20 years, which is about $1800 a month before taxes.

You doubt it would hurt retention? When they dropped it from 50% to 40% it certainly hurt retention and that is why they bumped it back up.

As far as your last statement...


No other company out there offers such a good deal for its employees.

I didn't know the military was just another "company". Do you know of any other countries that offers tours to places like Iraq, Afghanistan or just plain "out to sea" for months at a time away from wives and children along with moving said families every 3 years to all parts of the world for $30 to $40K a year for enlisted?

[sappstuf]

As a follow-up question..

Do any of those other "companies" have the right to pull you back to work for any reason at any time?


Involuntary Order to Active Duty. The Secretary of a Military Department may order any retired Regular member, retired Reserve member who has completed at least 20 years of active military service, or a member of the Fleet Reserve or Fleet Marine Corps Reserve to active duty without the member's consent at any time to perform duties deemed necessary in the interests of national defense in accordance with 10 U.S.C. 683 (reference (b)).

The Navy actually refers to it as "retainer pay" instead of retirement pay for the first 10 years because of this.

[diverdog]

What your father gets as a retired Colonel isn't even in the same ballpark as an E-6 with 20 years, which is about $1800 a month before taxes.

You doubt it would hurt retention? When they dropped it from 50% to 40% it certainly hurt retention and that is why they bumped it back up.

As far as your last statement...



I didn't know the military was just another "company". Do you know of any other countries that offers tours to places like Iraq, Afghanistan or just plain "out to sea" for months at a time away from wives and children along with moving said families every 3 years to all parts of the world for $30 to $40K a year for enlisted?


Sapp:

We are making promises to our vets that we cannot pay. We need to admit as much and fix the problem. There is no other funding source other than the taxpayer and we have not funded federal retirements which is becoming an ever larger share of the budget.

[diverdog]

As a follow-up question..

Do any of those other "companies" have the right to pull you back to work for any reason at any time?



The Navy actually refers to it as "retainer pay" instead of retirement pay for the first 10 years because of this.


Oh I don't know. I have worked for some pretty nasty companies.

ps: that is what you get for going into the navy. Lol

[cleller]

I think there is a misunderstanding on the "bad parent" issue. It sounded to me like FA's comment was using the collective or colloquial (or whatever the heck) "you" when he states "you might be a bad parent...." Meaning the persons he encounters, not anyone on this board.

He also appears to be a front line expert at what he talks about, with the benefit of many years experience. Two qualities that carry lots of weight.

[diverdog]

I think there is a misunderstanding on the "bad parent" issue. It sounded to me like FA's comment was using the collective or colloquial (or whatever the heck) "you" when he states "you might be a bad parent...." Meaning the persons he encounters, not anyone on this board.

He also appears to be a front line expert at what he talks about, with the benefit of many years experience. Two qualities that carry lots of weight.

Well I sure a sh*t took it personally. He was addressing me by saying you.

[cleller]

Well I sure a sh*t took it personally. He was addressing me by saying you.

Surely this passage does not apply to you:

"Call me cynical and unempathetic but at this stage in my career I am of the opinion that the biggest red flag that you might not be a good parent is the fact that you have not thought out or prepared for the financial consequences of having and raising children....especially if you keep havng children with the expectation that the tax payers will provide for all of their needs."

That's why my position is this was directed at a segment who does fit that description, which I agree is a very irresponsible and undesirable quality.

[FaninAma]

Diver, it was a generic "you" and not directed specifically AT you. I should have replaced "you" with "somebody".

No amount of money the government throws at our social problems will ever make up for the damage well-intentioned social planners in the government have done to the family structure in this country. Caring parents know what the outcome is if you continue financially supporting without requiring better choices of their children(be they young or over 18) who repeatedll make poor decisions.

The government makes a poor life partner and an even worse parent because they do not care about those they support enough to require changes in their actions and decisions. The government really does not care if you improve your life situation. In fact, there are a lot of people in the government who benefit more if people do not change their actions and continue to make poor decisions because it keeps them dependent on the government.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Nope Mid, thats a Trillion or so less money being abused and given out for crony favors...


BTW, I got a significant pay increase end of the year...The new Obama taxes take it all.

[sappstuf]

Phil:

I think we need to work on the low hanging fruit right now. Like you suggested raise the retirement age for SS and Medicare. While we are at it raise the retirement age for federal pensions including military pensions. We can do that right now and not hurt the economy. It will also solve some long range problems. I think you could also means test some benefits right now and reduce some benefits at the upper level which could save money. We should also reinstate the tax on stock trades. It was a fractional tax but would raise a lot of money.

One of my friends said another way that we could reduce health care cost is to work on getting our population in shape and to lose weight.

I am also sold on massive development of our gas fields.

So if I was scheduled to retire the day after tomorrow and was expecting about $2200 a month for the rest of my life and you decided "right now" that I'm not going to get that money for 15 more years or so and mulitipy that by 10s of thousands of people.... You are saying that it would NOT hurt the economy??

Do you believe that retirement pay is generally saved until later or is spent in fairly short order?

[diverdog]

So if I was scheduled to retire the day after tomorrow and was expecting about $2200 a month for the rest of my life and you decided "right now" that I'm not going to get that money for 15 more years or so and mulitipy that by 10s of thousands of people.... You are saying that it would NOT hurt the economy??

Do you believe that retirement pay is generally saved until later or is spent in fairly short order?

No. I would not do that. What I would do is move the retirement age up at some future date and grandfather in current service members who have more than 10 years in. For future retirees, I think you could have people retire at a higher percent of pay if you delay retirement by 25 years. Current members eligible for retirement might shoulder a greater percent of their medical cost and may see a loss of COLAS until they are 64. This stuff is not to hard to figure out with the right accounting and life expectancy models. We have to do something. It is not an option.

Having said that military retirement and benefits would be low on my list of things to do if I were cutting the budget. Welfare, HUD, SSI, and medicaid would get restructured first. SSI is the one program that chaps my *** the most. I would also look at corporate welfare, farm subsidies and such as places to swing the ax. SS and Medicare need some restructuring.

How do you like Sig?

[sappstuf]

No. I would not do that. What I would do is move the retirement age up at some future date and grandfather in current service members who have more than 10 years in. For future retirees, I think you could have people retire at a higher percent of pay if you delay retirement by 25 years. Current members eligible for retirement might shoulder a greater percent of their medical cost and may see a loss of COLAS until they are 64. This stuff is not to hard to figure out with the right accounting and life expectancy models. We have to do something. It is not an option.

Having said that military retirement and benefits would be low on my list of things to do if I were cutting the budget. Welfare, HUD, SSI, and medicaid would get restructured first. SSI is the one program that chaps my *** the most. I would also look at corporate welfare, farm subsidies and such as places to swing the ax. SS and Medicare need some restructuring.

How do you like Sig?

Uh, you did see the article I posted from the NYTimes that said SS life expectancy models haven't been updated since the 1930s didn't you?

Sig is good. Work isn't too hard. Got my son on an Italian soccer team, so that is a great experience for him. The food is as great as ever. Need to start working out more though...

[diverdog]

Uh, you did see the article I posted from the NYTimes that said SS life expectancy models haven't been updated since the 1930s didn't you?

Sig is good. Work isn't too hard. Got my son on an Italian soccer team, so that is a great experience for him. The food is as great as ever. Need to start working out more though...

Yes I did. Did you see my article that the Federal retirement system faces an equally large shortfall? Both are in trouble.

[soonercruiser]

Cruiser might've known my grandpa--retired back in the 80's from the Army as a full colonel, also a dentist.

Mid, not likely.
We pretty much kept to our own "service"...except for specialists like orthodontists.
Army guys I knew back in THAT TIME (80s) were majors and LtCols. I wasn't in the "senior rank "in crowd", since I wasted years as a line officer, before prof school.
As an Army dentist, they were assigned to specific units. Which meant that they deployed, PTed, and went everywhere with their units. A lot harder life that I led in the AF.