The House just passed the Fiscal Cliff Amendment

[StoopTroup]

It now goes to the President. AMEN

257-167

[SanJoaquinSooner]

My theory is that sometimes Boehner throws in the towel because he needs to get the hell out of there to go have a smoke.

[FaninAma]

It now goes to the President. AMEN

257-167

Amen? Were you praying to Obama?

[StoopTroup]

Amen? Were you praying to Obama?

Nope America

Now I'm praying for the people who lost everything from Hurricane Sandy.....just as I have for everyone who lost Homes and Businesses in many other Natural and Man-Made Disasters,

[okie52]

Unfortunately the pubs caved and they didn't need to. Pussies.

[soonercruiser]

Pugs voted against the Bill by 2:1. (I will look at the individual votes with interest.)
Dems voted for Joe BiteMe by about 10:1.
What does that tell you?

[StoopTroup]

I heard Inhofe and Coburn vote yes last night in the Senate.

[okie52]

I heard Inhofe and Coburn vote yes last night in the Senate.

I was wondering how they voted...particularly coburn. I usually trust his judgement on fiscal matters but if he voted yes it would be disappointing.

[LiveLaughLove]

I've already called and wrote him and let him know I am done with him.

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/?p=ContactForm

His phone is Washington: 202-224-5754; Tulsa: 918-581-7651; Oklahoma City: 405-231-4941

[StoopTroup]

In the Senate...

Three Democrats voted against the measure, including liberal Tom Harkin (Iowa), and moderates Thomas R. Carper (Del.) and Michael F. Bennet (Colo.). Bennet said the bill would do little to reduce record budget deficits.

Five Senate Republicans also rejected the measure, including tea party favorites Rand Paul (Ky.), Mike Lee (Utah) and Marco Rubio (Fla.), a potential contender for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination. But 40 others voted for it, including such GOP leaders on tax-and-spending policy as Sen. Patrick J. Toomey (Pa.) and Ronald H. Johnson (Wis.), a tea party star who frequently consults with conservatives in the House.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/house-members-meet-to-review-senate-passed-cliff-deal/2013/01/01/6e4373cc-5435-11e2-bf3e-76c0a789346f_story_1.html

[TUSooner]

I've already called and wrote him and let him know I am done with him.

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/?p=ContactForm

His phone is Washington: 202-224-5754; Tulsa: 918-581-7651; Oklahoma City: 405-231-4941

One of Tom Coburn's farts has more decency, intelligence, and sensibility than all of your posts put together and multiplied by 1000.

[StoopTroup]

heh

[FaninAma]

I've already called and wrote him and let him know I am done with him.

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/?p=ContactForm

His phone is Washington: 202-224-5754 (tel:202-224-5754); Tulsa: 918-581-7651 (tel:918-581-7651); Oklahoma City: 405-231-4941
Wrote him and did the same. His voice mail is full but I will let one of his aids have an earful tomorrow.

[SCOUT]

In the Senate...

Three Democrats voted against the measure, including liberal Tom Harkin (Iowa), and moderates Thomas R. Carper (Del.) and Michael F. Bennet (Colo.). Bennet said the bill would do little to reduce record budget deficits.

Five Senate Republicans also rejected the measure, including tea party favorites Rand Paul (Ky.), Mike Lee (Utah) and Marco Rubio (Fla.), a potential contender for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination. But 40 others voted for it, including such GOP leaders on tax-and-spending policy as Sen. Patrick J. Toomey (Pa.) and Ronald H. Johnson (Wis.), a tea party star who frequently consults with conservatives in the House.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/house-members-meet-to-review-senate-passed-cliff-deal/2013/01/01/6e4373cc-5435-11e2-bf3e-76c0a789346f_story_1.html
Is your happiness based in the fact that this will be fiscally damaging, or in that your party won?

[StoopTroup]

At least America can afford an earful tomorrow.

[StoopTroup]

Is your happiness based in the fact that this will be fiscally damaging, or in that your party won?

Nope. I thought it was the right thing to do.

[SCOUT]

Wow

[FaninAma]

One of Tom Coburn's farts has more decency, intelligence, and sensibility than all of your posts put together and multiplied by 1000.
OMG, Mr. Personality is back.

I am(or was) a big supporter of Coburn. I have talked to several of his aides about the fiscal cliff issue and they all were adamant that he would never back an agreement that didn't contain significant spending cuts.

So take your sophomoric insult and blow it out of your ***.

[FaninAma]

Nope. I thought it was the right thing to do.

Please explain. At what point does the deficit become detrimental to the economic health of the country....in your opinion?

[FaninAma]

At least America can afford an earful tomorrow.

No, It can't. This agreement only assured that they could keep running up our kids's credit card.

Are you really that dense? How do you not understand that we are borrowing 44 cents of every dollar we spend? Does it even matter to you?

[StoopTroup]

I think hurting our Economy like what happened before where we lost our Credit Rating was wrong and doing it again would even hurt our economy even more and it's all because a few people suddenly joined the Tea Party. The Tea Party just died. It was on life support the day after 11-6-2012 and it's at Code Blue right now.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[FaninAma]

I think hurting our Economy like what happened before where we lost our Credit Rating was wrong and doing it again would even hurt our economy even more and it's all because a few people suddenly joined the Tea Party. The Tea Party just died. It was on life support the day after 11-6-2012 (tel:11-6-2012) and it's at Code Blue right now.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dumbass, we lost our credit rating because nothing was being done about bringing down the deficit. We're still not doing anything about the deficit. Our credit rating will get hit again in 2013. Again, are you really that dense?

God, I've got to put you on ignore because your are the stupidest son of a bitch I have ever encountered.

[SCOUT]

I think hurting our Economy like what happened before where we lost our Credit Rating was wrong and doing it again would even hurt our economy even more and it's all because a few people suddenly joined the Tea Party. The Tea Party just died. It was on life support the day after 11-6-2012 and it's at Code Blue right now.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My "wow" from before has been trumped. Wow!

[Sooner98]

Nope. I thought it was the right thing to do.

Why?

[SCOUT]

Cause it feels right

[StoopTroup]

Dumbass, we lost our credit rating because nothing was being done about bringing down the deficit. We're still not doing anything about the deficit. Our credit rating will get hit again in 2013. Again, are you really that dense?

God, I've got to put you on ignore because your are the stupidest son of a bitch I have ever encountered.

No I'm not that dense...I just wanted to see if I could get the Tea Party going with a Defib......

_____^_____^_____^______^_____^_____^_____^_____^_ ____^_____^_____^_____^__

Dumba$$

[sappstuf]

Is your happiness based in the fact that this will be fiscally damaging, or in that your party won?

I'll go with door number 2, Bob.

[Sooner98]

Am I crazy, or did the Democrats just (almost unanimously) vote to extend almost all of the Bush tax cuts which supposedly "got us into this mess" to begin with?

[StoopTroup]

If you could only see my Voter ID Card.....

[StoopTroup]

Cause it feels right

With a condom on it....it's a good outcome as the Tea Party swimmers won't multiply

[StoopTroup]

Let's ask this....

Why is it bad that it passed?

[StoopTroup]

Then let's ask....

If the House had let it die like they just did the Money for Hurricane Sandy Victims....how will that be good for America?

[TUSooner]

OMG, Mr. Personality is back.

I am(or was) a big supporter of Coburn. I have talked to several of his aides about the fiscal cliff issue and they all were adamant that he would never back an agreement that didn't contain significant spending cuts.

So take your sophomoric insult and blow it out of your ***.
Better than your classless calling Stoop Troup a stupid son of a bitch. You are way out on the lunatic fringe, completely full of yourself, blinded by your own arrogance, deluded by a bizarre conviction that you have The Answer to it All, and just generally mean, rude, and narrowminded (to put it as nicely as possible). This little insignificant corner of the Internet is exactly where you and your nutcake brethren with your twisted, crabby, dried-up up little minds belong. And you can have it.

[SCOUT]

Then let's ask....

If the House had let it die like they just did the Money for Hurricane Sandy Victims....how will that be good for America?

Ask your question all the way through. What if people who lived in a hurricane zone prepared for the eventuality?

[Sooner98]

Let's ask this....

Why is it bad that it passed?

You never answered my question. I asked first.

[StoopTroup]

I just got bored TU.

I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind either. I just think it has to get old in here having everyone agreeing with each other and slapping each other on the back every time some idiot comes in and tosses an insult at you when you disagree with something or are just trying to console them when something Politically doesn't go their way.

Now...tonight is obviously a night where the folks who were hoping for the Country to go over the Cliff didn't get their way. They were prepared to face whatever happens from going over the Cliff.

It's just not good for our Political Machine IMO and I'm happy they all finally seemed to come together and compromise. What's sad is that it took them so long. They all had to know what would happen if they didn't come to a Compromise.

[olevetonahill]

Dumbass, we lost our credit rating because nothing was being done about bringing down the deficit. We're still not doing anything about the deficit. Our credit rating will get hit again in 2013. Again, are you really that dense?

God, I've got to put you on ignore because your are the stupidest son of a bitch I have ever encountered.

Your life will be so much happier, I've heard from frinds that he's still taking his little pissant shots at me, But as Long as I dont have to try to read his drivel Im happy

[SCOUT]

I just got bored TU.

I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind either. I just think it has to get old in here having everyone agreeing with each other and slapping each other on the back every time some idiot comes in and tosses an insult at you when you disagree with something or are just trying to console them when something Politically doesn't go their way.

Now...tonight is obviously a night where the folks who were hoping for the Country to go over the Cliff didn't get their way. They were prepared to face whatever happens from going over the Cliff.

It's just not good for our Political Machine IMO and I'm happy they all finally seemed to come together and compromise. What's sad is that it took them so long. They all had to know what would happen if they didn't come to a Compromise.

Congratulations on the biggest deflection ever written. You win!

[StoopTroup]

Whoever he is.....lol

[StoopTroup]

Congratulations on the biggest deflection ever written. You win!

:D

[StoopTroup]

Your life will be so much happier, I've heard from frinds that he's still taking his little pissant shots at me, But as Long as I dont have to try to read his drivel Im happy

Thank goodness you are here to preach Reverend. Or is it Ex-Reverend, Pilot, Sherriff, Stunt Driver, Elephant Trainer, Chef......

[SCOUT]

Thank goodness you are here to preach Reverend. Or is it Ex-Reverend, Pilot, Sherriff, Stunt Driver, Elephant Trainer, Chef......

Funny that you would see accomplishments as a negative...

[olevetonahill]

Funny that you would see accomplishments as a negative...

Hey Scout? was that another Pissant attempt at an attack on me?

[SCOUT]

Hey Scout? was that another Pissant attempt at an attack on me?
Hardly! I see each of those things as an actual accomplishment, and things that should be lauded.

[olevetonahill]

Hardly! I see each of those things as an actual accomplishment, and things that should be lauded.

Not You . The post you quoted. :welcoming:

[SCOUT]

Not You . The post you quoted. :welcoming:

No, I am referring to you. Stoop listed things that you have done as if they were negative. I see them as accomplishments and things for which you should be appreciated.

[nutinbutdust]

I am not happy about the amendment. I dont make enough money to be affected by the tax increases but....

Obama said he would not raise taxes on the middle class. The Payroll tax expired today, so I will be paying 2% more Social security tax. I guess Obama didnt raise the taxes but he allowed it to expire, so I am blameing him. I also feel that I will be paying more for health insurance due to things hidden in Obama care. There are probably other areas of hidden taxes the middle class will pay more on, but those two come to mind at present.

From what I understand if we don't get government spending under control the country will be bankrupt in 12 years, unable to even pay the interest on the national debt. That should have been taken care of with this bill but the politicians all took the easy way out and postponed any decision on this issue.

I feel like we all lost, no matter which side you are on, because there are spending issues that need to be addressed.

[olevetonahill]

No, I am referring to you. Stoop listed things that you have done as if they were negative. I see them as accomplishments and things for which you should be appreciated.

I figured that bro , I was wondering if it was an Pissant attack by ST at me
You've answered it
hes a Dick head thats why I put him on Iggy

[sappstuf]

Spin or silver lining?


If even under the conditions of the past month—with a very liberal president just re-elected, Republicans in disarray, public opinion on taxes seemingly friendlier to them than it has been in decades, and higher tax rates automatically taking effect—the Democrats can’t get more than a tiny pittance of revenue and no chips to use later, then their basic approach to fiscal issues just won’t work. The idea that they will raise rates again in the Obama years when they don’t have all these factors working in their favor is a fantasy. And the notion that the politics of taxes has decisively changed in their favor has been disproven by their own behavior: Many Democratic senators were as relieved as Republicans to see the threshold for higher rates rise well above $250,000, and would not have stood for it dropping below that level to where their upper middle class voters are. Having discovered an effective political wedge in the tax debate, the Democrats have now basically used it up and gotten awfully little in return. They can’t begin to acknowledge that the levels of spending they want to sustain will require a far greater tax burden on far more people (and in a far more regressive way) than today’s code, and if they can’t even state what they want out loud then they’re not likely to get it. Their bluff has been called. The welfare state they want to retain and expand cannot be funded, and they apparently have no way to do anything about that.

[Midtowner]

This didn't go nearly far enough on revenue increases. Should have increased the estate tax and income taxes above $250K.

Still, a solid proclamation that the Tea Baggers are irrelevant.

[Harry Beanbag]

This didn't go nearly far enough on revenue increases. Should have increased the estate tax and income taxes above $250K.

Still, a solid proclamation that the Tea Baggers are irrelevant.


No other way around it, you are ****ing retarded.

[Midtowner]

No other way around it, you are ****ing retarded.

You never have lost that grade school wit and charm.

[Sooner5030]

Obama just extended more of W's policies. I imagine he will get the same results.....a doubling of the nations debt over 8 years and very little stimulative effect.

But at least someone's team won and they can be happy and wave a party flag around until the next game is played.

[sappstuf]

Obama just extended more of W's policies. I imagine he will get the same results.....a doubling of the nations debt over 8 years and very little stimulative effect.

But at least someone's team won and they can be happy and wave a party flag around until the next game is played.

Don't forget that Obama signed into law another 5 years of the FISA warrantless wiretapping...

That crafty Bush... Still listening to our sh!t after being out of office for 4 years.

[Sooner5030]

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/terminal01/2009/1/23/15/the-bush-obama-morph-25181-1232742805-26.jpg

Cut taxes.....expand government.

[Midtowner]

Obama just extended more of W's policies. I imagine he will get the same results.....a doubling of the nations debt over 8 years and very little stimulative effect.

Spending at current levels has been and continues to be stimulative. Without that spending, the economy would be in free fall.

[Sooner5030]

Spending at current levels has been and continues to be stimulative. Without that spending, the economy would be in free fall.

No **** sherlock.....that's because the natural level of GDP is about +$1 trillion less than the calculated statistic that is published. So anytime you take away the deficit spending it will go down to its natural level. The problem with you Keynes F-sticks is that you cannot borrow forever.

[cleller]

Obama supporters remind me of the guys that drive flashy cars and blow money in nightclubs in their youth, then end up in bankruptcy. Still, they come back and start spending money, going on vacations, racking up credit card debt, and work till they day they die-always in debt.

They leave the legacy for their kids to repeat. Along with the freeloader class, these are the guys running the show now.

[Sooner98]

Questions for Dems:

1. If these tax increases (or "revenue increases" as you like to call them) do virtually nothing to reduce our trillion-dollar deficits, then what was the point of all this? What was it done for?

2. Are you now admitting that 99% of the Bush tax cuts, which most of you have been lamenting and rending your garments over for the last decade, were actually a GOOD thing for the country?

[LiveLaughLove]

Why?

Because it stuck it to rich people, that's why.

Didn't accomplish anything beyond that.

[Midtowner]

No **** sherlock.....that's because the natural level of GDP is about +$1 trillion less than the calculated statistic that is published. So anytime you take away the deficit spending it will go down to its natural level. The problem with you Keynes F-sticks is that you cannot borrow forever.

If Congress would stop effing with the economy and give it some stability, folks might actually start spending money again. I can tell you that this fiscal cliff nonsense has slowed a lot of private investment, now maybe things'll get better.

If we could somehow combine growth with much higher taxes as happened following WWII, the debt situation could be worked out. In that case, WWII was paid back with higher taxes and of course we had the benefit of being one of the few industrialized countries not bombed to hell.

[LiveLaughLove]

Then let's ask....

If the House had let it die like they just did the Money for Hurricane Sandy Victims....how will that be good for America?

The "money" for the hurricane sandy victims was loaded with pork that had zilch to do with helping the victims. Barely 20% was actually going to help them. Most of it was payola to pet projects. Read it.

[badger]

As much as I would have liked more concessions from the Democrats, they had the upper hand this round, because middle class taxes were on the line.

In the next round, when a spending limit must be drawn, Republicans will have the upper hand. The same arrogance and condescending attitude that got this fiscal cliff avoided will NOT work on Republicans in March/April.

[Midtowner]

As much as I would have liked more concessions from the Democrats, they had the upper hand this round, because middle class taxes were on the line.

In the next round, when a spending limit must be drawn, Republicans will have the upper hand. The same arrogance and condescending attitude that got this fiscal cliff avoided will NOT work on Republicans in March/April.

Except Obama has already signaled he's not even going to negotiate on the money Congress has already spent. I agree, if the Republicans want to cut spending in a down economy, they'll be blamed for the recession to follow.

[sappstuf]

Except Obama has already signaled he's not even going to negotiate on the money Congress has already spent. I agree, if the Republicans want to cut spending in a down economy, they'll be blamed for the recession to follow.

Is that like the signal he sent that taxes would have to go up on people making $250K a year?

[Midtowner]

Is that like the signal he sent that taxes would have to go up on people making $250K a year?

We'll see.

I guess that can go back on the table though :)

[LiveLaughLove]

Except Obama has already signaled he's not even going to negotiate on the money Congress has already spent. I agree, if the Republicans want to cut spending in a down economy, they'll be blamed for the recession to follow.

Who the heck are you kidding? A post or two earlier you just blamed the republicans for the bad economy under this president. You blamed bush for for years now you're going to blame Congress for the next four. It well never be Obama s fault will it? Of course not.

[badger]

Except Obama has already signaled he's not even going to negotiate on the money Congress has already spent. I agree, if the Republicans want to cut spending in a down economy, they'll be blamed for the recession to follow.

Congress is already unpopular. I don't think they'd be hated for doing what they could for the betterment of our future, rather than spending madly in the present.

As for Recession blame, the economy already sucks. If President Obama didn't get blamed for it enough to the point of getting ousted from office, Republicans probably won't either... and as much as Republicans have been blamed for things by Obama and Democrats during the past decade, they're still in control of the House.

[Midtowner]

Who the heck are you kidding? A post or two earlier you just blamed the republicans for the bad economy under this president. You blamed bush for for years now you're going to blame Congress for the next four. It well never be Obama s fault will it? Of course not.

I blame Bush for two wars we didn't need, vastly expanded entitlements, etc. Where is 'ol John "go eff yourself" Boehner at in getting at least to pre-Bush spending levels with regard to nixing the prescription drug control program (or at least setting price limits on drugs).

It's not Obama's fault because the other side for the previous 4 years has had one job--getting Obama out of office. At that job, they failed. Now they are further marginalized and divided, but still capable of ensuring reasonable people can't govern. In the past, there was compromise in Washington. The right, particularly with the way they handled the ACA has changed the culture. So now we have a do-nothing Congress which only manages to accomplish anything through brinksmanship. Boehner and McConnell should be proud.

[Midtowner]

Congress is already unpopular. I don't think they'd be hated for doing what they could for the betterment of our future, rather than spending madly in the present.

You do understand that the debt limit is authorizing spending on spending which Congress has already authorized, right?

This would be like agreeing to pay a $1,500 mortgage and sending a check for $1,250.

Also, if they're so worried about the debt, screwing with our credit rating can have a have huge and long-standing consequences. Playing with the debt ceiling is not a responsible thing to do. If you want to cut spending, then cut it, but this? This is stupid.

[LiveLaughLove]

I blame Bush for two wars we didn't need, vastly expanded entitlements, etc. Where is 'ol John "go eff yourself" Boehner at in getting at least to pre-Bush spending levels with regard to nixing the prescription drug control program (or at least setting price limits on drugs).

It's not Obama's fault because the other side for the previous 4 years has had one job--getting Obama out of office. At that job, they failed. Now they are further marginalized and divided, but still capable of ensuring reasonable people can't govern. In the past, there was compromise in Washington. The right, particularly with the way they handled the ACA has changed the culture. So now we have a do-nothing Congress which only manages to accomplish anything through brinksmanship. Boehner and McConnell should be proud.

That is perhaps the biggest revision of history with a side of delusion that's ever been written on here.

[cleller]

Who the heck are you kidding? A post or two earlier you just blamed the republicans for the bad economy under this president. You blamed bush for for years now you're going to blame Congress for the next four. It well never be Obama s fault will it? Of course not.

And get ready for the constant chorus of "it could have been worse" from the Keynesian sector. We may never know if Keynesian theory really works, Roosevelt did not follow it completely, neither has Obama.
Keynesian theory dictates all this money should be put toward government purchases, when Obama has transferred most of the money to social programs.

Probably not an original quote, by I read this from a Univ of Chicago researcher: "A doctor whose remedy frequently fails can always say that things would have been even worse without it, but at some point he also has to be open to the possibility that his prescription is wrong."

[okie52]

I blame Bush for two wars we didn't need, vastly expanded entitlements, etc. Where is 'ol John "go eff yourself" Boehner at in getting at least to pre-Bush spending levels with regard to nixing the prescription drug control program (or at least setting price limits on drugs).

It's not Obama's fault because the other side for the previous 4 years has had one job--getting Obama out of office. At that job, they failed. Now they are further marginalized and divided, but still capable of ensuring reasonable people can't govern. In the past, there was compromise in Washington. The right, particularly with the way they handled the ACA has changed the culture. So now we have a do-nothing Congress which only manages to accomplish anything through brinksmanship. Boehner and McConnell should be proud.




Senator Barack Obama Explaining his 2006 Vote Against Raising the Debt Limit
By Andrew C. McCarthy
January 4, 2011 11:49 A.M. Comments38
From Sen. Obama’s Floor Speech, March 20, 2006:

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

At the time, Senator Obama was urging Congress not to tolerate an increase that would bring the debt ceiling to $9 trillion. Under President Obama, the debt ceiling has been raised to $14.3 trillion. Even without counting most unfunded liabilities, the national debt is now calculated to be nearing $14.1 trillion. It increases about $4.22 billion per day (each citizen’s share stands at roughly $45K). Thus, Democrats will soon demand that the debt ceiling be raised, lest the sky fall. When they do, they will be asking for a significant boost in a ceiling that is already 60 percent higher than the one Barack Obama said was “a sign of leadership failure” five years ago.


.

[sappstuf]

.

Using Obama's own quotes against him is considered racist.

[Midtowner]

And get ready for the constant chorus of "it could have been worse" from the Keynesian sector. We may never know if Keynesian theory really works, Roosevelt did not follow it completely, neither has Obama.
Keynesian theory dictates all this money should be put toward government purchases, when Obama has transferred most of the money to social programs.

Social programs are some of the most, if not the most efficient ways to stimulate the economy. For every $5.00 in SNAP spending, we see $9.00 in economic growth.


Probably not an original quote, by I read this from a Univ of Chicago researcher: "A doctor whose remedy frequently fails can always say that things would have been even worse without it, but at some point he also has to be open to the possibility that his prescription is wrong."

This is economics on a huge and theoretical skill, not medicine, and we know that without 1 trillion in spending, over the short term, we'd be in a deep depression right now.

[okie52]

Using Obama's own quotes against him is considered racist.

I'm only criticizing his white half.

[LiveLaughLove]

And get ready for the constant chorus of "it could have been worse" from the Keynesian sector. We may never know if Keynesian theory really works, Roosevelt did not follow it completely, neither has Obama.
Keynesian theory dictates all this money should be put toward government purchases, when Obama has transferred most of the money to social programs.

Probably not an original quote, by I read this from a Univ of Chicago researcher: "A doctor whose remedy frequently fails can always say that things would have been even worse without it, but at some point he also has to be open to the possibility that his prescription is wrong."

Yep. During cash for clunkers when people were videoing themselves destroying perfectly good cars, I thought this guy is so incompetent and insanely unqualified to be president that people surely will never even contemplate another for years of it.

The problem is twofold and almost unstoppable. One, the media is in this guys hip pocket, so his message is the only one that gets a serious airing. Two, people aren't educated on things political.

So yeah, we well definitely get the "it could have been worse", because nothing this guy has done in for years will actually help.

[sappstuf]

I'm only criticizing his white half.

You mean his racist white grandmother part?

[cleller]

Social programs are some of the most, if not the most efficient ways to stimulate the economy. For every $5.00 in SNAP spending, we see $9.00 in economic growth.



This is economics on a huge and theoretical skill, not medicine, and we know that without 1 trillion in spending, over the short term, we'd be in a deep depression right now.

What? Medicine is child's play, and economics is only for people to test unproven theories? Keynes is no sure thing, just something appealing to liberals, who like to try and talk over everyone else.
I guess the rest of us should just keep repeating, "without the $1 trillion in spending the economy would look just the same, but we would not be facing an even more catastrophic future".
How about we just proclaim as truth that Obama's policies are geared more toward government dependence than prosperity.
Or maybe, Obama wants to give away money so people will worship him.

All are equally valid to the "it could be worse" cop-out.

[Midtowner]

There will always be people who depend on the government because there will always be people in perches of economic power looking to exploit the masses at the lowest possible cost. The free market is a zero sum game. You only make money by taking it away from someone else. Considering it costs a certain amount to live, to the extent that we allow the wealthy to exploit lower classes, the government needs to redistribute wealth in order to keep the masses (which outnumber the wealthy considerably) from killing the wealthy people.

--that pattern has occurred in just about every severely imbalanced State in history. You gotta give the plebs bread and circuses in order to remain prosperous.

[okie52]

You mean his racist white grandmother part?

Yes, she tortured that poor boy.

[cleller]

Social programs are some of the most, if not the most efficient ways to stimulate the economy. For every $5.00 in SNAP spending, we see $9.00 in economic growth.



Not according to Keynes. He specified that monies were to used for government purchases.
I checked on this SNAP claim, and found, as expected the figure is a forward looking estimate from the USDA. It uses "multipliers" that closely Obama administration multipliers for the stimulus package, all of which run higher than standard Keynesian multipliers. Just more speculation.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/134117/err103_1_.pdf

Economists have generally found that govt spending during WWII and Korea had a multiplier of 0.8. Obama uses 1.6, the USDA 1.79.
Their assumption is that they can do today much better than we did in history, and always better than money kept by the private sector. Pretty big assumptions. I wouldn't willingly throw my money that way.

[Sooner98]

I blame Bush for two wars we didn't need....

Just to be clear, you believe we should have left Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda with a permanent base/headquarters in Afghanistan? In September/October of 2001, with corpses still among the rubble in lower Manhattan, your policy would have been to NOT invade Afghanistan, and leave them alone to plot more attacks?

[sappstuf]

Yes, she tortured that poor boy.

Speaking of torture...

Renditions continue under Obama...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/renditions-continue-under-obama-despite-due-process-concerns/2013/01/01/4e593aa0-5102-11e2-984e-f1de82a7c98a_story.html

Obama in 2008:


This means ending the practices of shipping away prisoners in the dead of night to be tortured in far-off countries, of detaining thousands without charge or trial, of maintaining a network of secret prisons to jail people beyond the reach of the law.

Or maybe it doesn't...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

why Harry Reid was sidelined for Joe Biden....

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress-legacy/why-harry-reid-was-sidelined-for-joe-biden-20130101?page=2

[Midtowner]

Just to be clear, you believe we should have left Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda with a permanent base/headquarters in Afghanistan? In September/October of 2001, with corpses still among the rubble in lower Manhattan, your policy would have been to NOT invade Afghanistan, and leave them alone to plot more attacks?

The massive boots on the ground has accomplished what for us exactly?

As soon as we leave, the Taliban sweeps into power as all of "our" political leaders like Karzai will be in their private jets packed with as many freshly minted dollars as they can carry.

[Sooner98]

Questions for Dems:

1. If these tax increases (or "revenue increases" as you like to call them) do virtually nothing to reduce our trillion-dollar deficits, then what was the point of all this? What was it done for?

2. Are you now admitting that 99% of the Bush tax cuts, which most of you have been lamenting and rending your garments over for the last decade, were actually a GOOD thing for the country?

(crickets chirping....)

[FaninAma]

Better than your classless calling Stoop Troup a stupid son of a bitch. You are way out on the lunatic fringe, completely full of yourself, blinded by your own arrogance, deluded by a bizarre conviction that you have The Answer to it All, and just generally mean, rude, and narrowminded (to put it as nicely as possible). This little insignificant corner of the Internet is exactly where you and your nutcake brethren with your twisted, crabby, dried-up up little minds belong. And you can have it.

As long as I am different than you and your cynical acceptance of progressive policies that are hell bent on destroying the future of our kids and grandkids. I will gladly pay more taxes. I will gladly take less in social security and medicare benfits when the time comes if it helps reduce the deficit. You on the other hand will greedily inisist on every dime coming your way as well as reaching ino the pockets of the wealthy who you envy with every fiber of your academic psuedo-intellectual being.

BTW, as far as Stoop Troop being stupid, I simply refer you to the classic line from Forrest Gump. At least he has an excuse. What's yours?

So go ahead and call me all the names you wish. I consider it a badge of honor.

BTW, it will be interesting to watch what happens to the tenured faculty at institutions of higher learning when the student loan program goes the way of the 2008 mortgage crisis.

Even pontificating, self-rightous elitist stiffs like yourself cannot avoid the consequences of living on borrowed money forever.

I may be "ranting" in a small forum in a corner of the internet but I got under your skin and I must say it made my day.

[Midtowner]

it will be interesting to watch what happens to the tenured stiffs at institutions of higher learning when the student loan program goes the way of the 2008 mortgage crisis.

Yeah, I'm not so sure how that's going to play out. The biggest problem we have is the for-profit education sector--a bunch of online schools or schools located in your local strip mall which claim to sell you 4-year degrees or paralegal certificates or whatever. There are a few decent ones out there like UOP, but for the most part, these schools target the unemployed, folks who watch daytime TV (next time you're sick at home, turn on network television, I almost forgot those commercials), basically dumb and uneducated people. These schools offer programs similar to our public universities, but at ridiculously inflated prices. Students don't figure this out until it's too late. They spent $100K on something which is worth $20K and it's non-bankruptable.

There's been a little movement on this issue, which has been opposed by the for-profit education folks. For example, several years from now, if students of an institution have a loan default rate in excess of (whatever), they lose their eligibility for these loans.

I think even that is B.S. If universities are confident in the quality of their degree, they should underwrite their own loans or find a private institution which is willing to take that bet. The debt is non-dischargeable, so if you have a medical degree from OU, banks are going to be kicking down the door to make it rain for you. On the other hand, if you're enrolled in $400/hour hair school, no one's going to touch you with a 10-foot pole.

Look for any sort of blowback to be aimed primarily at for-profits. I wouldn't dream of buying that stock.

[LiveLaughLove]

As long as I am different than you and your cynical acceptance of progressive policies that are hell bent on destroying the future of our kids and grandkids. I will gladly pay more taxes. I will gladly take less in social security and medicare benfits when the time comes if it helps reduce the deficit. You on the other hand will greedily inisist on every dime coming your way as well as reaching ino the pockets of the wealthy who you envy with every fiber of your academic psuedo-intellectual being.

BTW, as far as Stoop Troop being stupid, I simply refer you to the classic line from Forrest Gump. At least he has an excuse. What's yours?

So go ahead and call me all the names you wish. I consider it a badge of honor.

BTW, it will be interesting to watch what happens to the tenured faculty at institutions of higher learning when the student loan program goes the way of the 2008 mortgage crisis.

Even pontificating, self-rightous elitist stiffs like yourself cannot avoid the consequences of living on borrowed money forever.

I may be "ranting" in a small forum in a corner of the internet but I got under your skin and I must say it made my day.

TU is the typical fair weather fan. He and JM show up to gloat on here, make their insults, do their gloating and then fade back out of the picture. They'll be gone in a day or two until the next gloating opportunity.

[badger]

If the wealthy are self-made, I don't envy them. Rather, they're quite inspiring.

If they are Walton heirs and heiresses that have never had to work a day in their lives while they sit around collecting interest on their inheritances to make the Forbes top 20 billionaires list...

...WHY again were we so worried about the estate tax not returning to 50 percent above $1 million???

[pphilfran]

If the wealthy are self-made, I don't envy them. Rather, they're quite inspiring.

If they are Walton heirs and heiresses that have never had to work a day in their lives while they sit around collecting interest on their inheritances to make the Forbes top 20 billionaires list...

...WHY again were we so worried about the estate tax not returning to 50 percent above $1 million???

Even if the heirs never lifted a finger what other person did any work to build the company and should deserve a benefit from the deceased?

[okie52]

The massive boots on the ground has accomplished what for us exactly?

As soon as we leave, the Taliban sweeps into power as all of "our" political leaders like Karzai will be in their private jets packed with as many freshly minted dollars as they can carry.

And just what should the US have done in Afghanistan?

So you have no problems with Libya?

[LiveLaughLove]

why Harry Reid was sidelined for Joe Biden....

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress-legacy/why-harry-reid-was-sidelined-for-joe-biden-20130101?page=2


Asked on New Year’s Eve what he was telling Democratic senators to win their support, Biden told reporters, “I said, ‘This is Joe Biden, and I’m your buddy.’ ”

Geez, this sort of drivel doesn't just work with the obtuse constituents of these idiots, it works on their politicians too!

The party of intellect for sure. LOL.

[badger]

Even if the heirs never lifted a finger what other person did any work to build the company and should deserve a benefit from the deceased?

I'm fine with the government taking a big cut after the person(s) that earned it die. After all, it's our great country's laws, workers and security that allow so many to be successful here as opposed to elsewhere in the world. It's why people move here en masse instead of the other way around.

[sappstuf]

I'm fine with the government taking a big cut after the person(s) that earned it die. After all, it's our great country's laws, workers and security that allow so many to be successful here as opposed to elsewhere in the world. It's why people move here en masse instead of the other way around.

The government already took a big cut while the person was alive and earning it. Why should the government be able to tax it twice?

It is like if you have any money left in your bank on every December 31st the government is going to take 40%... Just because.

[badger]

The government already took a big cut while the person was alive and earning it. Why should the government be able to tax it twice?

Well, you can spend it and get it taxed twice (income and sales tax) or you can save it beyond $3 million and get it taxed again after you die.

Death and taxes are a certainty. Combine the two into one and you have the meaning of life.

[sappstuf]

Well, you can spend it and get it taxed twice (income and sales tax) or you can save it beyond $3 million and get it taxed again after you die.

Death and taxes are a certainty. Combine the two into one and you have the meaning of life.

There are several states with no sales tax.

[Midtowner]

So you have no problems with Libya?

I'd have rather handled Afghanistan like Libya. Perhaps Libya was employing what we learned from Afghanistan. Of course you have very different situations on the ground. At least Libya had the vestiges of a real government remaining, whereas Afghanistan is more a description of assorted lands and peoples than an actual country.

[badger]

There are several states with no sales tax.

Mr. Contrarian :P

Do you start all of your sentences with "Actually, ..."
Do you find yourself to be the only thing right with this wrong world?
Do you disagree with me pointing this out?

:D

[diverdog]

The government already took a big cut while the person was alive and earning it. Why should the government be able to tax it twice?

It is like if you have any money left in your bank on every December 31st the government is going to take 40%... Just because.

This is simply not accurate. At what point was my parents farm land taxed on its appreciation?

[okie52]

I'd have rather handled Afghanistan like Libya. Perhaps Libya was employing what we learned from Afghanistan. Of course you have very different situations on the ground. At least Libya had the vestiges of a real government remaining, whereas Afghanistan is more a description of assorted lands and peoples than an actual country.

Libya had done nothing to us. We had even taken them off the terrorist lists and re-established relations with them along with placing an embassy there in 2006.

Obama has had 4 years to end the war in Afghanistan...why hasn't he?

[Midtowner]

Obama has had 4 years to end the war in Afghanistan...why hasn't he?

Beats the hell out of me. Either we stay there permanently or get out yesterday.

[okie52]

Beats the hell out of me. Either we stay there permanently or get out yesterday.

I'm in agreement with getting the hell out...of course I would level it upon leaving and destroy everything of any possible value upon departure.

[LiveLaughLove]

This is simply not accurate. At what point was my parents farm land taxed on its appreciation?

At what point is sending money to the most wasteful entity in the world too much?

At what point could it have been better utilized in the private sector?

At what point do we demand some spending restraint from these pusillanimous pompostic windbags, and say
"No, you have enough!"?

You do know there is a point where money simply going to government won't help the economy, right?

[LiveLaughLove]

Hey, remember all of those Hollywood types saying, "tax me! tax me!"?

Yeah the bill that just passed had huge tax breaks for Hollywood in it. So there's that.


Section 317 of the freshly approved legislation includes an extension for "special expensing rules for certain film and television productions." Congress first enacted production tax incentives favorable to the domestic entertainment industry in 2004, and extended them in 2008, but the deal was meant to expire in 2011.
The fiscal cliff deal extends the tax incentives through 2013--even as payroll taxes rise on ordinary Americans.
The original tax incentive applied to productions costing less than $15 million to make ($20 million in low-income areas). The 2008 extension applies to all films, up to a deduction of $15 million (or $20 million in low-income areas). The incentive is especially generous to television series; it applies to each TV episode.

But yeah lets focus on family farms.

[badger]

At what point do we demand some spending restraint from these pusillanimous pompostic windbags, and say
"No, you have enough!"?

Every four years for president, every two years for House of Representatives, every six for U.S. Senate.

I, as a proud Tulsan, did what a majority of the rest of the country did not, I threw my incumbent out. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=688&articleid=20120627_16_A1_CUTLIN551830)

Voting's about the only say that average baj's like me have left in this tax-spend discussion. I exercise that right and hope y'all do too

[LiveLaughLove]

During negotiations, Boehner told Harry Reid to "Go F Yourself".









And Harry did.

[Midtowner]

I'm in agreement with getting the hell out...of course I would level it upon leaving and destroy everything of any possible value upon departure.

I don't really see the utility of that since we probably built anything of value in that country.

[LiveLaughLove]

Every four years for president, every two years for House of Representatives, every six for U.S. Senate.

I, as a proud Tulsan, did what a majority of the rest of the country did not, I threw my incumbent out. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=688&articleid=20120627_16_A1_CUTLIN551830)

Voting's about the only say that average baj's like me have left in this tax-spend discussion. I exercise that right and hope y'all do too

We didn't elect a King. People seem to forget those House guys and gals were elected also, and for a reason.

[Sooner98]

The massive boots on the ground has accomplished what for us exactly?

As soon as we leave, the Taliban sweeps into power as all of "our" political leaders like Karzai will be in their private jets packed with as many freshly minted dollars as they can carry.

So this was your policy in September 2001, or did it become your policy only when it became popular to use platitudes like "Bush started two unnecessary wars, and look where we are now!!!"?

[Midtowner]

So this was your policy in September 2001, or did it become your policy only when it became popular to use platitudes like "Bush started two unnecessary wars, and look where we are now!!!"?

In 2001, I was in my early 20s and didn't know sh** from shinola. My attitude changed gradually, like most folks, after we got Saddam, did some nationbuilding, and it gradually became known that the WMD issue was pure fiction or bad intel. Then as to Afghanistan when we have very high level people saying that the second we leave, teh Taliban will be back in charge, both ventures in hindsight look like bad ideas. If Afghanistan could have been conducted like Libya, with air and drone support, I'd have been all for that and would continue to be.

[okie52]

I don't really see the utility of that since we probably built anything of value in that country.

If they are going to be taken over again by the Taliban, leave them nothing. Roads, Buildings, bridges, airports, schools, etc...scorched earth.

[sappstuf]

I'm in agreement with getting the hell out...of course I would level it upon leaving and destroy everything of any possible value upon departure.

Bomb them up to the stone age!

[okie52]

Bomb them up to the stone age!

They could meet Obama's CO2 emission goals with their Flintstone vehicles.

[sappstuf]

They could meet Obama's CO2 emission goals with their Flintstone vehicles.

Actually I saw a lot of this over there:

http://www.michaelmosack.com/Journalism/Afghanistan/i-qHh2H7C/0/XL/_MG_1129web-XL.jpg

I'm not sure what the CO2 output of a donkey is..

[okie52]

Actually I saw a lot of this over there:

http://www.michaelmosack.com/Journalism/Afghanistan/i-qHh2H7C/0/XL/_MG_1129web-XL.jpg

I'm not sure what the CO2 output of a donkey is..

LOL

Yep, that donkey methane could be hazardous.

[BermudaSooner]

The free market is a zero sum game. You only make money by taking it away from someone else.

Now all of your posts suddenly make sense.

Please explain how Bill Gates exploited people and only moved money from one place to the next...in other words, he didn't create anything.

Please explain how America rose to such an economic superpower if money was not created.

It really is Econ 101...it isn't that hard....and I understood you to be an attorney. Don't you need schooling for that?

[Midtowner]

Now all of your posts suddenly make sense.

Please explain how Bill Gates exploited people and only moved money from one place to the next...in other words, he didn't create anything.

Gates exploits the labor pool in Microsoft and at his manufacturing plants (or he did when he was CEO) to create things which people willingly transferred their wealth to in order to make money. In other words, he made his billions by taking it from others, whether that is from his own workers by paying lower wages than he could afford to pay or from his customers in exchange for product.


Please explain how America rose to such an economic superpower if money was not created.

WWII, a large population, vast natural resources and a good public education system.

I'm sure fractional reserve banking (which is how money is created) and becoming the world's must stable currency had something to do with that as well. Capitalism isn't all unicorns and rainbows, it is at its core the art of creating systems which take as much money away from others as you possibly can while paying the least. It's greed and avarice and the reward thereof. And again, if you even have to ask the question, you're well, I'll leave the school yard insults to you and your people.

[sappstuf]

LOL

Yep, that donkey methane could be hazardous.

I'm sure if you killed enough donkeys their economy would come crashing down. Bush was on to something when he was talking about shooting a $2 million missile at a camel's butt.

[okie52]

I'm sure if you killed enough donkeys their economy would come crashing down. Bush was on to something when he was talking about shooting a $2 million missile at a camel's butt.

There is obviously the flaw in our military strategy. You were over there, why didn't you point that out to them?

[sappstuf]

There is obviously the flaw in our military strategy. You were over there, why didn't you point that out to them?

I tried, but the generals were too busy writing emails to floosies back in the states...

[okie52]

I tried, but the generals were too busy writing emails to floosies back in the states...

Dam those women...

[Midtowner]

Dam those women...

Take away their birth control?

[soonercruiser]

Actually I saw a lot of this over there:

http://www.michaelmosack.com/Journalism/Afghanistan/i-qHh2H7C/0/XL/_MG_1129web-XL.jpg

I'm not sure what the CO2 output of a donkey is..

Is that Nanci Peeloski???

(Oh crap! I can see the questions now, like....)

[okie52]

Take away their birth control?

That might be the fitting punishment...look what it did for Edwards.

[Sooner98]

This thread has gotten too far off course, let's get it back to where it should be. You know, about how the Democratic Party has now enthusiastically endorsed 99% of George W. Bush's tax policy, while at the same time renounced and rejected 99% of Bill Clinton's tax policy.

[FaninAma]

TU is the typical fair weather fan. He and JM show up to gloat on here, make their insults, do their gloating and then fade back out of the picture. They'll be gone in a day or two until the next gloating opportunity.

I am aware of that. I hope he enjoyed the response he got.

Here is the deal. Everyone who has kids or grandkids and wishes only the best for them should recognize the absolute immoral actions our government is engaging in by foisting an unrepayable debt on their shoulders. Treating the actions of the politicians they support like the results of a damned football game is beyond pathetic.

TU knows where this trainwreck is headed if entitlements aren't cut and reformed but apparently he either doesn't care or gets too much enjoyment about reveling in the conservatives' pain. I am starting to believe StoopTroop is just incapable of grasping the concept regarding the consequences of a severely devalued currency or government bankruptcy. I am pretty sure he will get to see those consequences played out in the near future in Greece and Japan.

Add to this fact the actual realization that unfunded mandates actually dwarf the national deficit figures by about 10 times and it should be easy to realize the serious hazards this country faces in the next decade. My concern is that those sounding the alarm are ineffective because we are either called alarmists or right-wing crackpots by seemingly intelligent people like TU who refuse to seriously research and educate themselves on the issues. He is basically an ignorant elitist who has either convinced himself that there will be no serious consequences to the deficit spending or doesn't care because he agrees with the progressive redistributionist policies(i.e. he is a nihlist). By himself he would be harmless but he is just representative of an entire segment of otherwise intelligent individuals in academia, the media and government who are working very hard to marginalize fiscal conservatives.

I do not disagree that some of us need to pay more taxes. I do not disagree that the military budget has to be cut. Now, lets see who among the Democrats will step up and help cut/reform entitlements. I won't hold my breath.

And no Badger, we can't wait until all the people who paid into those programs are gone. This economy won't survive that long and what type of society comes out of it will be a far differnet place for your new baby than the one you grew up in. Besides the politicians who depend on these programs for votes will just keep pandering to those of us who are still alive unless we force them to stop.

Advocating for a sound fiscal policy is the same thing as advocating for more opportunity and a better future for young people and future generations. To do otherwise would be equivalent to contributing to the immoral actions being committed by the progressives against our kids.

I am 55 1/2 years old and I have had plenty of opportunity to achieve my goals and enjoy the fruits of my labor. I want those same opportunities for my kids. I firmly believe that those opportunities will be denied them by a government that has grown so large it is now able to control and bankrupt the nation's economy. And I no longer have the time, patience or desire to remain civil to individuals who truly do not care about my kids and your kids or otherwise refuse to admit the deep hole this country is falling into.

According to TU I should just remain silent since I am not a politician, media star or mogul, or a captain of industry. Well, this is litte corner of the internet (and a few others) is the only voice I have. My job keeps me too busy, the politicians I vote for keep caving on their principles, and the media is uninterested in educating the population. So I guess I will use what forums I have available until such time as generous hosts like Phil feel I have worn out my welcome.

[Sooner98]

The free market is a zero sum game. You only make money by taking it away from someone else.

Occupy Wall Street's bongo drummer went missing a while back. Apparently, he has now shown up and become a regular poster on Soonerfans politics board.

[nutinbutdust]

In 2001, I was in my early 20s and didn't know sh** from shinola
In 2013, I was in my early 30s and didn't know sh** from shinola.

fixed it for ya :surprise:

[pphilfran]

Until the economy gets to 4%+ GDP growth I am against any tax increase or spending cuts that negatively affect the economy...

[Midtowner]

Occupy Wall Street's bongo drummer went missing a while back. Apparently, he has now shown up and become a regular poster on Soonerfans politics board.


fixed it for ya

You really showed me. Wow.

[East Coast Bias]

I am aware of that. I hope he enjoyed the response he got.

Here is the deal. Everyone who has kids or grandkids and wishes only the best for them should recognize the absolute immoral actions our government is engaging in by foisting an unrepayable debt on their shoulders. Treating the actions of the politicians they support like the results of a damned football game is beyond pathetic.

TU knows where this trainwreck is headed if entitlements aren't cut and reformed but apparently he either doesn't care or gets too much enjoyment about reveling in the conservatives' pain. I am starting to believe StoopTroop is just incapable of grasping the concept regarding the consequences of a severely devalued currency or government bankruptcy. I am pretty sure he will get to see those consequences played out in the near future in Greece and Japan.

Add to this fact the actual realization that unfunded mandates actually dwarf the national deficit figures by about 10 times and it should be easy to realize the serious hazards this country faces in the next decade. My concern is that those sounding the alarm are ineffective because we are either called alarmists or right-wing crackpots by seemingly intelligent people like TU who refuse to seriously research and educate themselves on the issues. He is basically an ignorant elitist who has either convinced himself that there will be no serious consequences to the deficit spending or doesn't care because he agrees with the progressive redistributionist policies(i.e. he is a nihlist). By himself he would be harmless but he is just representative of an entire segment of otherwise intelligent individuals in academia, the media and government who are working very hard to marginalize fiscal conservatives.

I do not disagree that some of us need to pay more taxes. I do not disagree that the military budget has to be cut. Now, lets see who among the Democrats will step up and help cut/reform entitlements. I won't hold my breath.

And no Badger, we can't wait until all the people who paid into those programs are gone. This economy won't survive that long and what type of society comes out of it will be a far differnet place for your new baby than the one you grew up in. Besides the politicians who depend on these programs for votes will just keep pandering to those of us who are still alive unless we force them to stop.

Advocating for a sound fiscal policy is the same thing as advocating for more opportunity and a better future for young people and future generations. To do otherwise would be equivalent to contributing to the immoral actions being committed by the progressives against our kids.

I am 55 1/2 years old and I have had plenty of opportunity to achieve my goals and enjoy the fruits of my labor. I want those same opportunities for my kids. I firmly believe that those opportunities will be denied them by a government that has grown so large it is now able to control and bankrupt the nation's economy. And I no longer have the time, patience or desire to remain civil to individuals who truly do not care about my kids and your kids or otherwise refuse to admit the deep hole this country is falling into.

According to TU I should just remain silent since I am not a politician, media star or mogul, or a captain of industry. Well, this is litte corner of the internet (and a few others) is the only voice I have. My job keeps me too busy, the politicians I vote for keep caving on their principles, and the media is uninterested in educating the population. So I guess I will use what forums I have available until such time as generous hosts like Phil feel I have worn out my welcome.

Well, he was certainly on-target when he said you had a conviction that you had the "Answer to All". Most of what we see here on the board is opinion with an occasional fact in the mix. You refer to TU as an "ignorant elitist" who needs to do more research . That sounds a lot like if you don't agree with me then you are stupid. Most of what is expressed here is just political talking points and both sides are extreme. Too many labels and name-calling for my taste. While I am a liberal, I find common ground in some conservative ideals.

My own opinion is that Okie52 and Mid have it right. The government should be spending money right now, without it we would be in a serious recession.Yes, we have to reduce the deficit, but it has to be done over time, the right way. I think we are in big trouble with what we have in Congress, too much ideology and not enough what's right for the country. On both sides of the aisle/

[BermudaSooner]

Gates exploits the labor pool in Microsoft and at his manufacturing plants (or he did when he was CEO) to create things which people willingly transferred their wealth to in order to make money. In other words, he made his billions by taking it from others, whether that is from his own workers by paying lower wages than he could afford to pay or from his customers in exchange for product.



I missed the point where Gates forced anybody to do anything. Capitalism isn't about forcing and exploiting, it is about innovating and creating.

Those (probably) hundreds of thousands of families that have fed themselves, sent their kids to college, bought their own house, on Microsoft pay were not exploited...and most definitely have better lives due to Gates and...CAPITALISM.

[Midtowner]

I missed the point where Gates forced anybody to do anything. Capitalism isn't about forcing and exploiting, it is about innovating and creating.

Those (probably) hundreds of thousands of families that have fed themselves, sent their kids to college, bought their own house, on Microsoft pay were not exploited...and most definitely have better lives due to Gates and...CAPITALISM.

They most certainly were exploited. Gates made a profit. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

I don't think you know what exploitation means, so here goes:


exploitation  
ex·ploi·ta·tion [ek-sploi-tey-shuh n] Show IPA
noun
1.
use or utilization, especially for profit: the exploitation of newly discovered oil fields.
2.
selfish utilization: He got ahead through the exploitation of his friends.
3.
the combined, often varied, use of public-relations and advertising techniques to promote a person, movie, product, etc.

You need to operate with the same dictionary and set of facts as the rest of the world. Life would be easier that way. Is what Gates did in creating Microsoft a selfish act? Extremely! Is there anything wrong with that? Nope.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I am aware of that. I hope he enjoyed the response he got.

Here is the deal. Everyone who has kids or grandkids and wishes only the best for them should recognize the absolute immoral actions our government is engaging in by foisting an unrepayable debt on their shoulders. Treating the actions of the politicians they support like the results of a damned football game is beyond pathetic.

TU knows where this trainwreck is headed if entitlements aren't cut and reformed but apparently he either doesn't care or gets too much enjoyment about reveling in the conservatives' pain. I am starting to believe StoopTroop is just incapable of grasping the concept regarding the consequences of a severely devalued currency or government bankruptcy. I am pretty sure he will get to see those consequences played out in the near future in Greece and Japan.

Add to this fact the actual realization that unfunded mandates actually dwarf the national deficit figures by about 10 times and it should be easy to realize the serious hazards this country faces in the next decade. My concern is that those sounding the alarm are ineffective because we are either called alarmists or right-wing crackpots by seemingly intelligent people like TU who refuse to seriously research and educate themselves on the issues. He is basically an ignorant elitist who has either convinced himself that there will be no serious consequences to the deficit spending or doesn't care because he agrees with the progressive redistributionist policies(i.e. he is a nihlist). By himself he would be harmless but he is just representative of an entire segment of otherwise intelligent individuals in academia, the media and government who are working very hard to marginalize fiscal conservatives.

I do not disagree that some of us need to pay more taxes. I do not disagree that the military budget has to be cut. Now, lets see who among the Democrats will step up and help cut/reform entitlements. I won't hold my breath.

And no Badger, we can't wait until all the people who paid into those programs are gone. This economy won't survive that long and what type of society comes out of it will be a far differnet place for your new baby than the one you grew up in. Besides the politicians who depend on these programs for votes will just keep pandering to those of us who are still alive unless we force them to stop.

Advocating for a sound fiscal policy is the same thing as advocating for more opportunity and a better future for young people and future generations. To do otherwise would be equivalent to contributing to the immoral actions being committed by the progressives against our kids.

I am 55 1/2 years old and I have had plenty of opportunity to achieve my goals and enjoy the fruits of my labor. I want those same opportunities for my kids. I firmly believe that those opportunities will be denied them by a government that has grown so large it is now able to control and bankrupt the nation's economy. And I no longer have the time, patience or desire to remain civil to individuals who truly do not care about my kids and your kids or otherwise refuse to admit the deep hole this country is falling into.

According to TU I should just remain silent since I am not a politician, media star or mogul, or a captain of industry. Well, this is litte corner of the internet (and a few others) is the only voice I have. My job keeps me too busy, the politicians I vote for keep caving on their principles, and the media is uninterested in educating the population. So I guess I will use what forums I have available until such time as generous hosts like Phil feel I have worn out my welcome.

TU works for the fed gov't. I'm sure he's gotten plenty of raised over the last 5 years. My wife works for the state and hasn't had a raise in 5 years because the state can't print its own money. Maybe that has something to do with why he welcomes deficit spending. Self-interest and all.

[StoopTroup]

I'd like to state that I do care about kids. If Fan thinks I don't care about his...that's his opinion.

I just think that kids have the ability to overcome a lot of our mistakes, whether the mistakes are his, mine or our Government's. I think he needs to have a little more faith in his kids. I'm sure I'm a bit biased but I think my Kids have a really good chance of making the most out of life and that they will decide what kind of life they want to have. I would like to think they might achieve things I would like them to achieve but if they do something else, I will enjoy the surprise and tell them just how proud I am of them.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I'd like to state that I do care about kids. If Fan thinks I don't care about his...that's his opinion.

I just think that kids have the ability to overcome a lot of our mistakes, whether the mistakes are his, mine or our Government's. I think he needs to have a little more faith in his kids. I'm sure I'm a bit biased but I think my Kids have a really good chance of making the most out of life and that they will decide what kind of life they want to have. I would like to think they might achieve things I would like them to achieve but if they do something else, I will enjoy the surprise and tell them just how proud I am of them.

I have faith in StoopTroup. Let me take all his money and leave him saddled with $150,000 in debt before he even gets started. I have faith he'll make up for it.

[StoopTroup]

I have faith in StoopTroup. Let me take all his money and leave him saddled with $150,000 in debt before he even gets started. I have faith he'll make up for it.

That's the trick now isn't it. Don't live beyond your means. Don't expect the future to stay all rosey. Save for a rainy day. Learn to live on a bit less and don't spend every damn dime you have. On the otherhand....you also need to live a little and spend a little. You can't just live on beans, white bread and water and put away every dime you have either.

Find a happy medium.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Boo Hiss!!!

At least The Socialist screwed the middle class. Their taxes going up more than the "richey riches"!

[nutinbutdust]

http://youtu.be/0yE-07Sx2Ug

Utah Republican Senator Mike Lee said:“Everything about this bill was a failure…you need look no further than the fact that we were given a total of six minutes before we voted on it. Not one single Senator who voted for this bill had read it.”. This should trouble every American. I mean, if Senators aren’t reading a bill that will pretty much impact every single working American, what else aren’t they reading? Wow 6 minutes to read a 154-page bill, and decide whether to vote on it.

[sappstuf]

http://youtu.be/0yE-07Sx2Ug

Utah Republican Senator Mike Lee said:“Everything about this bill was a failure…you need look no further than the fact that we were given a total of six minutes before we voted on it. Not one single Senator who voted for this bill had read it.”. This should trouble every American. I mean, if Senators aren’t reading a bill that will pretty much impact every single working American, what else aren’t they reading? Wow 6 minutes to read a 154-page bill, and decide whether to vote on it.


Noob... Doesn't he know the way the Dems operate?


we have to pass the bill so That you can find out what's in it ....

[nutinbutdust]

Noob... Doesn't he know the way the Dems operate?


we have to pass the bill so That you can find out what's in it ....Nancy Pelosi

;-) fixed it for ya. lol