Chavez Prayer Thread

[StoopTroup]

I thought I should throw this up for you guys. I know you are all tore up over this. :D

[soonercruiser]

I pray "not present".

[StoopTroup]

I pray "not present".

This was taken a day ago. I think your prayers will be coming true pretty soon.

http://leadership.ng/nga/sites/default/files/articleimages/hugo-chavez.jpg

[LiveLaughLove]

The Devil needs souls too. <insert winkie face here>

[StoopTroup]

:wink:

[okie52]

I thought I should throw this up for you guys. I know you are all tore up over this. :D

Hollywood will be in tears.

[LiveLaughLove]

Sean Penn may never act again.

[okie52]

Harry belafonte will be on suicide watch.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I'm guessing many Christians will conjecture that Chavez will make it to heaven. But he believes Jesus was the greatest socialist their ever was - rather than a libertarian (except for that rendering taxes unto Caesar thing).

[sappstuf]

Sean Penn may never act again.

True story:


When Venezuelan autocrat Hugo Chavez was carted off to Cuba this month for cancer treatment, Penn informed the world of his deep emotional distress. With a warbling voice, his long hair cinched back in a ponytail, and clad in an absurd “Bolivarian” tracksuit, he offered a pre-eulogy for Chavez. From a candlelight vigil in La Paz, Bolivia, Penn blubbered that el comandante is “one of the most important forces we’ve had on this planet, and I’ll wish him nothing but that great strength he has shown over and over again.” His praise was delivered “in love” and “gratitude”—and in English.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/sappstuf/Penn_zpsd51755ea.jpg

[KantoSooner]

I have in my mind an image of Hugo, neck deep in a cess pool, drinking a cup of coffee. And then a great voice intoning, "Break's over, back on your knees."

Very rarely was anyone in such dire need of an extra few grains of lead in his life.

[JohnnyMack]

So Chavez is going to hell because he's a socialist and Jesus was a capitalist?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Yes, because Jesus was a tall, slender, white male who was clearly conservative republican and yes..a capitalist.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So Chavez is going to hell because he's a socialist and Jesus was a capitalist?

I suspect that's not relevant.

[olevetonahill]

So Chavez is going to hell because he's a socialist and Jesus was a capitalist?

No, He's going to hell cause he's an aszhole.

[LiveLaughLove]

So Chavez is going to hell because he's a socialist and Jesus was a capitalist?


Nah, I figure it's cause hes a cowardly SOB that's killed women and children. He's killed just about everything that's walked or crawled at one time or another, and he's here to kill Li'l Bill for what he did to Ned.

Seriously, you humorless leftist dolts need to get a grip. I put the little winkie thing to signify a joke., as in not serious. I suppose your grief over your soon to be departed icon is clouding your vision. In his case, let's hope your belief system is correct and when he assumes room temperature he just becomes worm food.

Now, lighten up Frances.


Yes, because Jesus was a tall, slender, white male who was clearly conservative republican and yes..a capitalist.

You too halfwit. Everyone knows Jesus was a black man dedicated to freeing the slaves and oppressed of the world, and damning the USKKK of America. Get with the program. Sheesh.

[KantoSooner]

Any bets on how long the 'Bolivarian Revolution' lasts after Chubby is buried?

And, wouldn't it be nice to be the US ambassador to Bolivia the morning after that happened? You might schedule a meeting with Evo just out of a spirit of meanness.

"Yo, Buddy! How's the petroleo position?

Feeling un pequito sin amigos?

Kind of like being uno solo peon montanero?

Rethinking expropriatin' those rancheros?

Have a buena dia, pal."

[JohnnyMack]

Nah, I figure it's cause hes a cowardly SOB that's killed women and children. He's killed just about everything that's walked or crawled at one time or another, and he's here to kill Li'l Bill for what he did to Ned.

Seriously, you humorless leftist dolts need to get a grip. I put the little winkie thing to signify a joke., as in not serious. I suppose your grief over your soon to be departed icon is clouding your vision. In his case, let's hope your belief system is correct and when he assumes room temperature he just becomes worm food.

Now, lighten up Frances.



I don't know the first ****ing thing about the guy, actually.

You know me, such a leftst.

But if we're gonna send people to hell for killing women and children, well, we're gonna need a bigger boat.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

"I have great faith in what we're doing, in this intense undertaking against the illness that ambushed me last year, and I have faith, I repeat, in God," said Chavez, who looked pale and bloated.

"It's like a pact with God, with Christ my Lord," Chavez said. "I'm sure he will lay on a hand so that this treatment, which we're rigorously following, will have supreme success."



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/07/hugo-chavez-cancer-religion_n_1497588.html

[Midtowner]

Nah, I figure it's cause hes a cowardly SOB that's killed women and children. He's killed just about everything that's walked or crawled at one time or another, and he's here to kill Li'l Bill for what he did to Ned.

Just about every great leader in history has presided over bloodshed. FDR, one of the past centuries' greatest leaders knew that to tame Japan or Germany, you had to break their will. He did so by wiping out millions of civilians. What Chavez did was pretty bush league by comparison.


Seriously, you humorless leftist dolts need to get a grip. I put the little winkie thing to signify a joke., as in not serious. I suppose your grief over your soon to be departed icon is clouding your vision. In his case, let's hope your belief system is correct and when he assumes room temperature he just becomes worm food.

Now, lighten up Frances.

You too halfwit. Everyone knows Jesus was a black man dedicated to freeing the slaves and oppressed of the world, and damning the USKKK of America. Get with the program. Sheesh.


How 'bout you take some of your own medicine there sparky?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Nah, I figure it's cause hes a cowardly SOB that's killed women and children. He's killed just about everything that's walked or crawled at one time or another, and he's here to kill Li'l Bill for what he did to Ned.

Seriously, you humorless leftist dolts need to get a grip. I put the little winkie thing to signify a joke., as in not serious. I suppose your grief over your soon to be departed icon is clouding your vision. In his case, let's hope your belief system is correct and when he assumes room temperature he just becomes worm food.

Now, lighten up Frances.



You too halfwit. Everyone knows Jesus was a black man dedicated to freeing the slaves and oppressed of the world, and damning the USKKK of America. Get with the program. Sheesh.

So, I need to lighten up while you call me a name. I guess i will be the one like Jesus here..

[Midtowner]

Any bets on how long the 'Bolivarian Revolution' lasts after Chubby is buried?

That'll be the telling factor.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

If it was a joke, I didn't get the winky.

[LiveLaughLove]

"I have great faith in what we're doing, in this intense undertaking against the illness that ambushed me last year, and I have faith, I repeat, in God," said Chavez, who looked pale and bloated.

"It's like a pact with God, with Christ my Lord," Chavez said. "I'm sure he will lay on a hand so that this treatment, which we're rigorously following, will have supreme success."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/07/hugo-chavez-cancer-religion_n_1497588.html

Yeah, he also said capitalism destroyed life on Mars. Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

Here's one that comes to mind in relation to the above:


Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' ~ Matthew 7:22-23 NIV

But that's just me. :)

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

What will happen in Venezuela politically after the Sulpher Sniffer decends into darkness?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' ~ Matthew 7:22-23

He's not a last minute opportunist. Chavez has been a Christian his entire life. He was even an alter boy. Of course, he's human so he's done his share of sinning. I just don't see the fact that he's been horrible for Venezuela will keep him out of heaven.

[LiveLaughLove]

He's not a last minute opportunist. Chavez has been a Christian his entire life. He was even an alter boy. Of course, he's human so he's done his share of sinning. I just don't see the fact that he's been horrible for Venezuela will keep him out of heaven.

You will know them by their fruits also comes to mind. I don't listen to what people say, so much as what they do.

Still, his salvation or lack thereof is for God to decide, not any of us.

As for my first post, IT WAS A JOKE.






Hope that clears it up.

[JohnnyMack]

You will know them by their fruits also comes to mind. I don't listen to what people say, so much as what they do.

Still, his salvation or lack thereof is for God to decide, not any of us.

As for my first post, IT WAS A JOKE.






Hope that clears it up.

Harry Truman is going to hell. Got it.

[Midtowner]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/10/4/1349347635293/Venezuela-key-indicators--009.jpg

It seems he's done a lot of good for his people, or at least that he's presided over economic growth. I'm sure the corporations he took from are barking mad, but that's the gamble you take when you're in a country which doesn't guarantee property rights.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Political power is the ultimate power. Always can be abused, as in the case of Chavez

[Midtowner]

Political power is the ultimate power. Always can be abused, as in the case of Chavez

Numbers don't lie.

Sure, he nationalized a lot of industries and employed them in manners taking advantage of economies of scale and such. He has also led to revolutionary advances in communal business and manufacturing. Clearly, none of that would be constitutional here, but he changed their constitution, doing so with absolutely huge margins. I can see why he's popular in his country and can understand why he's not popular here.

[okie52]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/10/4/1349347635293/Venezuela-key-indicators--009.jpg

It seems he's done a lot of good for his people, or at least that he's presided over economic growth. I'm sure the corporations he took from are barking mad, but that's the gamble you take when you're in a country which doesn't guarantee property rights.

Even socialists will develop their oil and gas reserves for the benefit of their country.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Even socialists will develop their oil and gas reserves for the benefit of their country.sure, a) once they have taken possession of the oil and gas industry and b)there's not enough environmental extremist whacks to hinder the despot's continued control of government, and c) the despot himself does not give ample credence to the environmental whacks.

[okie52]

sure, a) once they have taken possession of the oil and gas industry and b)there's not enough environmental extremist whacks to hinder the despot's continued control of government, and c) the despot himself does not give ample credence to the environmental whacks.

Chavez is lucky that Venezuela has lots of oil otherwise they would be a very poor country. At least Chavez is willing to use his country's resources.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Chavez is lucky that Venezuela has lots of oil otherwise they would be a very poor country. At least Chavez is willing to use his country's resources.yeah, now that he has taken them. Nobody ever said he doesn't like money.

[soonercruiser]

I have in my mind an image of Hugo, neck deep in a cess pool, drinking a cup of coffee. And then a great voice intoning, "Break's over, back on your knees."

Very rarely was anyone in such dire need of an extra few grains of lead in his life.

The punch line is...."Honk! Breaks over! Everyone back on your heads!".

[soonercruiser]

Yes, because Jesus was a tall, slender, white male who was clearly conservative republican and yes..a capitalist.

A Capitalist!
Jesus did turn 2 loaves and a few fish into 12 baskets full of fragments left over, after 500 men ate.

A socialist like the U.S or Venezuelian Presidents would turn 12 baskets of fragments left over into one can of sardines can with a label, "your tax dollars at work"!
(Kinda like what Obama's doing to our economy.) :02.47-tranquillity:

[soonercruiser]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/10/4/1349347635293/Venezuela-key-indicators--009.jpg

It seems he's done a lot of good for his people, or at least that he's presided over economic growth. I'm sure the corporations he took from are barking mad, but that's the gamble you take when you're in a country which doesn't guarantee property rights.

Duh!
Nothing like part of the statistics!!
How about how much private wealth and industry was "nationalized"??? (Taken from the "people"?)
How about mentioning that it now takes a month's worth of average wealth (income) to get a loaf of bread???
What's the inflation rate?

[Midtowner]

Duh!
Nothing like part of the statistics!!
How about how much private wealth and industry was "nationalized"??? (Taken from the "people"?)

Clearly, that happened. It's a foreign country and this was done with the will of the people. How you feel about it morally is beside the point. GDP has more than doubled, poverty is much lower and unemployment is less than ours.


How about mentioning that it now takes a month's worth of average wealth (income) to get a loaf of bread???
What's the inflation rate?

I really could give 2 sh**s about companies in Venezuela having their businesses nationalized. They're free to pursue compensation in international courts or through actions in other countries, but good luck with that.

Inflation is very high, but that's not a bad thing. Many countries (including Venezuela) purposely inflate their economy to attract manufacturers who want to export.

And the Month's work to get a loaf of bread is just BS.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Venezuela

Bread costs about $2.00/loaf there. Minimum wage (U.S. equivalent in 2009 dollars [best I could find]) is $8,495/year. You do like to just make sh** up and try to run with it, doncha?

[KantoSooner]

What will become of Venezuela after Chavez? No idea. Probably reform to the right over a period of time.

What's been going on economically during the Hugo Era? That's easier.

First, the price of oil went from around $35 per bbl to around $100 per bbl. Even for Venezuela's crappy oil (high sulphur, low gasoline fraction, difficult to refine).

Second, expropriation. Not just of foreigners' assets, either. Hugo has nationalized the oil industry domestically, the banks, the media, transportation and most heavy industry.

Third, the past decade has been a miracle for South American economies.

So, to put it bluntly, during an economic boom, the price of their prime hard currency earning export has tripled. And Hugo has still found it necessary to steal money from foreigners and his own people. And still needs more cash. But where's it coming from? The problem with stealing is that, once you've stolen everything someone has, you either have to find new victims or give the original victims a chance to build up a kitty again.

He's out of time and money at the moment. And, I'll be damned if the son of a bitch isn't going to die just in time to keep his rep with his idiot followers and global leftists intact.

You don't accept my analysis? Look at neighboring countries like, say, Colombia. Nasty place, of course. Capitalist. Friend of the hated Yankees. And a damn fine economy with tremendous growth, healthy industries and intact foreign trade. And they don't have nearly the petro-crutch that Hugo does. Likewise Brazil, one of the economic miracle BRIC nations. Same story. Even with formally socialist presidents, they have managed to maintain rule of law and a very healthy private sector. Also without oil exports. Nope, sorry to say that Hugo has mis-managed Venezuela about as comprehensively as any man has ever mis-managed anything.

The sooner he dies, the better for mankind.

[olevetonahill]

Just about every great leader in history has presided over bloodshed. FDR, one of the past centuries' greatest leaders knew that to tame Japan or Germany, you had to break their will. He did so by wiping out millions of civilians. What Chavez did was pretty bush league by comparison.




How 'bout you take some of your own medicine there sparky?

So Please tell me how FDR wiped out "Millions" of civilians?

[Midtowner]

So Please tell me how FDR wiped out "Millions" of civilians?

Along with Truman...

Killed by the Western Allies.
Japanese civilian dead:
2 million5
Hiroshima:
about 138,890 according to Gilbert. 5
Nagasaki:
about 48,857according to Gilbert.5
Tokyo bombings:
"On May 24, more than four hundred American bombers dropped 3,646 tons of bombs on central Tokyo, and on the industrial areas in the south of the city. More than a thousand Japanese were killed."5
Tokyo, March 1945: "83,793 Japanese civilians killed. That was the official minimum death toll; later, 130,000 deaths were 'confirmed' by the Japanese authorities." 5
Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, Yokohama, Kawasaki March-May 1945:
"more than a quarter of a million"5
German civilians killed by bombing
In total about 800,000 according to Gilbert. 12
Hamburg, July 1943:
42,000 5
Dresden, February 1945:
"39,773 'officially identified dead' were found in the city and registered, most of them burned to death. At least 20,000 more bodies were buried beneath ruins, or incinerated beyond recognition, even as bodies. 5

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml

[Turd_Ferguson]

So Please tell me how FDR wiped out "Millions" of civilians?

He can't. He just makes **** up...

[olevetonahill]

He can't. He just makes **** up...

Did ja see He added "With Truman" what a dip****

I dont think FDR Killed anyone myself, maybe he ran over someone drunk in his wheel chair and Truman was pushin him?

[KantoSooner]

The fire bombing of Tokyo alone killed over 400,000. I'd go with 'millions of dead civilians'. And that's fine. We could argue the roots of that war endlessly, but the fact remains that the Japanese, German and Italian civilians were quite okay with going to war and with the goodies that flowed their way when things were going well. So **** 'em. If that's what it took to get their surrender, then that's what it took. No tears.
WE also engineered famines in Japan and Germany as tools of war. And we interdicted vaccine and medical supplies and precursor ingredients.
That's total war. It was waged on us, we waged it back. We did it better than they did. Yay us.

But let's not forget that we got down in the trenches. And twisted the knife when it was necessary.

[olevetonahill]

Agreed Kanto, That was a World War instigated by those who wound up suffering the most.
Comparing FDR to Chavez is asinine and just out right Idiotic.

[JohnnyMack]

So Please tell me how FDR wiped out "Millions" of civilians?

Seriously?

I think it's time for your afternoon nap.

[Midtowner]

Agreed Kanto, That was a World War instigated by those who wound up suffering the most.
Comparing FDR to Chavez is asinine and just out right Idiotic.

Nah, just pointing out that "great men" like FDR and Lincoln, etc., are men who have to be willing to kill innocent old ladies and children to attain their goals--and those things happened on their watch. History is written by the victors. We lack historical perspective to see whether Chavez is remembered as the next Simon Bolivar or something much lesser.

[LiveLaughLove]

The worst thing FDR did had nothing to do with the enemies civilians. It was giving half of the European world to uncle Joe. That caused truly innocent people to be slaughtered.

The people that allowed tojo, Hitler, and Mussolini into power can't be called innocent, even though no doubt some were.

[cleller]

Can it be that some here are actually defending Chavez, or is it just an exercise in antagonist behavior?

Human Rights Watch even says "the concentration of power under under President Hugo Chavez has taken a heavy toll on human rights in Venezuala". They are highly critical of Chavez for undermining the courts, the media, organized labor, and impeding human rights and civil society.

Yes, I know, "it could be worse". There is always someone or something worse. It could be raining.

http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/09/18/decade-under-ch-vez

[olevetonahill]

Seriously?

I think it's time for your afternoon nap.

But,I just got up,

[pphilfran]

We should make him prez of the US....he would get our **** together...

[Midtowner]

Can it be that some here are actually defending Chavez, or is it just an exercise in antagonist behavior?

Nah, it's just when I see that the ultra-conservative SF posters vehemently hate something, I have to think it has a few redeeming qualities. Did a little digging, there are definitely two sides to the story and a lot of people are a lot better off due to Chavez. Did some lose a lot of stuff? Yep. Was that right? Who is to say? We're talking property seizures and reordering society. Toes will be stepped on. We can judge it by the end result which will either be something for us all to admire or a total cluster.

[cleller]

Lots of people prospered under Hitler, too. And the trains ran on time.

[KantoSooner]

Mid, while you are correct that 'great men' in history have tended to need to know when and how to break the eggs to make the omelet, there is a moral relativist cliff that should be avoided at all costs. Was FDR's willingness to accept civilian death the 'same' as Hitler's? Stalin's? Mao's? Pol Pot's? I would argue 'no' on a number of different levels.

Likewise with Hugo. I think there are a number of places where he has shown himself to be a small man, morally and that those shortcomings are almost surely going to put him into the category of banana republic dictator before his ruthlessness somehow propels him to lasting importance.

But, you're correct, we don't know yet.


Still hope he dies, slowly, in pain and humiliation. Don't like the guy.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Can it be that some here are actually defending Chavez, or is it just an exercise in antagonist behavior?

Human Rights Watch even says "the concentration of power under under President Hugo Chavez has taken a heavy toll on human rights in Venezuala". They are highly critical of Chavez for undermining the courts, the media, organized labor, and impeding human rights and civil society.

Yes, I know, "it could be worse". There is always someone or something worse. It could be raining.

http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/09/18/decade-under-ch-vez

No one is defending the biggest prick in the Western Hemisphere Hugo Chavez. But he still may have a path to heaven, right?

[olevetonahill]

No one is defending the biggest prick in the Western Hemisphere Hugo Chavez. But he still may have a path to heaven, right?

Guess you iggy Matlock too huh?

[olevetonahill]

Nah, it's just when I see that the ultra-conservative SF posters vehemently hate something, I have to think it has a few redeeming qualities. Did a little digging, there are definitely two sides to the story and a lot of people are a lot better off due to Chavez. Did some lose a lot of stuff? Yep. Was that right? Who is to say? We're talking property seizures and reordering society. Toes will be stepped on. We can judge it by the end result which will either be something for us all to admire or a total cluster.

But it was yer Number 1 biggest Fan who started this thread just to stir shat up You know this dude
http://i.imgflip.com/541e.jpg

[cleller]

No one is defending the biggest prick in the Western Hemisphere Hugo Chavez. But he still may have a path to heaven, right?

He's on his own, and probably has some 'splainin to do.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Guess you iggy Matlock too huh?I let him out to play, but he's so out there, he comes up with stuff that boggles the imagination, and not in a good way. Had to put him back where he normally resides.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Guess you iggy Matlock too huh?

Vet, I have no idea what this means.

[olevetonahill]

Vet, I have no idea what this means.

Just like most subjects, huh?

[cleller]

So Please tell me how FDR wiped out "Millions" of civilians?

Good work. You already got them to trash FDR and Truman in support of Chavez, now say something supportive of Abraham Lincoln, he was responsible for more American civilian deaths than anyone else.

Astounding.

[StoopTroup]

Vet, I have no idea what this means.

Matlock is his little slam for Midtowner I think. It's how he gets by talking to someone smarter than him. Just toss out a Name or insult. SSDD

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Numbers don't lie.

Sure, he nationalized a lot of industries and employed them in manners taking advantage of economies of scale and such. He has also led to revolutionary advances in communal business and manufacturing. Clearly, none of that would be constitutional here, but he changed their constitution, doing so with absolutely huge margins. I can see why he's popular in his country and can understand why he's not popular here.

Unsustainable. He's bought political patronage because of rising oil prices and there's still plenty of oil flowing there. But the way he's gutted PdVSA and filled it with his cronies that oil production will be tailing off, so he's kicking it at the right time. Whether he's truly popular there or not is a thing of mystery since he wins elections by controlling the media and repressing dissent. The fact that you admire that doesn't surprise me.

[Midtowner]

Unsustainable. He's bought political patronage because of rising oil prices and there's still plenty of oil flowing there. But the way he's gutted PdVSA and filled it with his cronies that oil production will be tailing off, so he's kicking it at the right time. Whether he's truly popular there or not is a thing of mystery since he wins elections by controlling the media and repressing dissent. The fact that you admire that doesn't surprise me.

I don't know whether to admire it or not. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. Things were bad when he took office, now they're measurably better.

In 20 years, we'll have some perspective.

[KantoSooner]

Again, I think the comparison with Colombia is instructive. Was Venezuela in anywhere near as dire shape as Colombia 20 years ago? And now look at them. Colombia is firmly 'second world' and moving up. Venezuela is in free fall with the exception of free medical care that the Cubans supply in exchange for free oil.
Venezuela is moving quickly toward being the basket case economy of SA, where once there were decent neighborhoods, the whole place now is a ghetto.

[Midtowner]

Again, I think the comparison with Colombia is instructive. Was Venezuela in anywhere near as dire shape as Colombia 20 years ago?

Columbia has hitched its wagon to the U.S. and for strategic reasons, we are almost single handedly powering their rise. That free trade agreement will likely result in a lot of jobs moving from Mexico to Columbia. They also still have significant problems with corruption, but that's South America for you.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Here's my prayer... Die you gravy sucking pig!!! there...

[KantoSooner]

Columbia has hitched its wagon to the U.S. and for strategic reasons, we are almost single handedly powering their rise. That free trade agreement will likely result in a lot of jobs moving from Mexico to Columbia. They also still have significant problems with corruption, but that's South America for you.

If you think Colombia is totally a US-lite play, check again. Their ag sector is a powerhouse and the free trade agreement will, indeed, put boosters on light manufacturing. They are increasingly a doorway for Asian/South American trade (which is, of late, surprisingly large). Colombia also has, no surprise, a well developed banking sector.
The era of US economic dominance over SA is long past. Mostly for the better, we have neither the ability nor the obligation to carry the region.
There's a potential to see happen there what happened in SE Asia from 1985 or so onwards. We need to ditch the old stereotypes much sooner, this time around.

[Lott's Bandana]

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7940/800pxbspdrweltkriseengl.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/800pxbspdrweltkriseengl.png/)


Fix their economy, they'll follow you anywhere...

[LiveLaughLove]

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7940/800pxbspdrweltkriseengl.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/800pxbspdrweltkriseengl.png/)


Fix their economy, they'll follow you anywhere...

Both Venezuela and Germany have paid and are paying an awful price in human tolls. The casualness that the freedoms and liberties of the people are swept aside as "breaking some eggs" is almost staggering in it's disregard.

The will of the people as a mob shouldn't be more important than individual liberty. In fact, that is precisely the problem. Might (the power of the majority) does not make right, and never will.

[KantoSooner]

The fundamental issue is that of a failure of humility. Everyone is easily convinced that the majority should rule and should not be stymied by the minority...so long as they are in the majority. It is, of course, much harder to admit that, even when one is in the majority that one might be wrong or that one's long term interests are best served by respecting the absolute rights of the minority to be left unmolested.
You most clearly see this in cases where the majority believes their interests to be identified with absolute righteousness, as in religious conviction.
The magic of the US system of government and of our Constitution in particular is that it forbids mob rule, even when the mob is sure they stand with absolute right.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The will of the people as a mob shouldn't be more important than individual liberty. In fact, that is precisely the problem. Might (the power of the majority) does not make right, and never will.We're into that territory, now, in the USA. Whether the vote was fairly legit, or hopelessly loaded with fraud, it did happen, and it doesn't look good for lawful restoration, in the foreseeable future. Welcome to 2013!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The fundamental issue is that of a failure of humility. Everyone is easily convinced that the majority should rule and should not be stymied by the minority...so long as they are in the majority. It is, of course, much harder to admit that, even when one is in the majority that one might be wrong or that one's long term interests are best served by respecting the absolute rights of the minority to be left unmolested.
You most clearly see this in cases where the majority believes their interests to be identified with absolute righteousness, as in religious conviction.
The magic of the US system of government and of our Constitution in particular is that it forbids mob rule, even when the mob is sure they stand with absolute right.Statism is, unfortunately, something with the attributes of a religion, and is a step beyond, in that it has the power of govt. It IS govt. control of the populace, and is the ultimate "religion" to be feared. If it doesn't scare you, take a dip in an icy shower or something like that, to bring you to your senses.

[KantoSooner]

reread this:

"The magic of the US system of government and of our Constitution in particular is that it forbids mob rule, even when the mob is sure they stand with absolute right."

It's a simple proposition, to set aside a certain sphere of individual liberty, beyond the power even of the state, even when the state and the majority of the people within that state, feel that they are absolutely right to curtail those rights.

It's pretty much what sets us apart from other nations.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I don't know whether to admire it or not. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. Things were bad when he took office, now they're measurably better.

In 20 years, we'll have some perspective.

So you're fine with trampling on human rights in the name of "progress". That's something I wouldn't have put on you until it came from your own keyboard. So is Putin a personal hero of yours?

[KantoSooner]

I have to admit I enjoy watching Vlad dealing with the Chechens.

Pop popcorn for that.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

reread this:

"The magic of the US system of government and of our Constitution in particular is that it forbids mob rule, even when the mob is sure they stand with absolute right."

It's a simple proposition, to set aside a certain sphere of individual liberty, beyond the power even of the state, even when the state and the majority of the people within that state, feel that they are absolutely right to curtail those rights.

It's pretty much what sets us apart from other nations.we know what this administration, and even the d party nowadays do and think about our laws. Get used to it.

[KantoSooner]

Oh, yeah, they're all treasonous dogs! To the barricades!

[LiveLaughLove]

reread this:

"The magic of the US system of government and of our Constitution in particular is that it forbids mob rule, even when the mob is sure they stand with absolute right."

It's a simple proposition, to set aside a certain sphere of individual liberty, beyond the power even of the state, even when the state and the majority of the people within that state, feel that they are absolutely right to curtail those rights.

It's pretty much what sets us apart from other nations.

You mean like those second amendment rights that are untouchable? The creative minds have figured out work-arounds on the Constitution to parts they want reworked.

To those they can't, they are starting more and more to just ignore and call the Constitution irrelevant or malleable.

Look at property rights and eminent domain. Property rights were sacrosanct for decades upon decades. Now they can take your property just to get more tax revenue from someone else.

The list of liberties that have been taken just in the past few decades are breathtaking, but they do it drip drip style. So we are the frogs boiling and we think we have these immutable rights. Yeah, right.

[Midtowner]

So you're fine with trampling on human rights in the name of "progress". That's something I wouldn't have put on you until it came from your own keyboard. So is Putin a personal hero of yours?

I don't think his record will be so clear in that respect. While he sure did do a few things we culturally wouldn't appreciate, he also gave a lot to the folks society as a whole was treating quite poorly--especially indigenous peoples. Like I said, it's way too early to be discussing the legacy of Chavez.

[Midtowner]

Look at property rights and eminent domain. Property rights were sacrosanct for decades upon decades. Now they can take your property just to get more tax revenue from someone else.

What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. For someone who says he holds the Constitution sacrosanct, you ought to try reading it some time.


No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[1]

That's the Constitution blessing the right of eminent domain, actually placing a limit on it very similar to what we inherited from European jurisprudence, dating back to the 14th Century.

Somewhere in the case law, of course, public use became public purpose and public purpose came to be read very broadly. Some state constitutions like Oklahoma's place some limits on what public purpose means. That said, prior to Kelo v. City of New London, there was mixed authority on whether a taking could occur to enhance a tax base, but now, even under current law, if your land is considered "blighted," which is not a horribly difficult test to pass, it can be condemned for redevelopment.

That said, we've had straight roads and sewer easements since the Constitution was passed--all because of eminent domain.

As to gun rights, most folks agree that the 2nd Amendment doesn't let you possess RPGs or a SAW and the 2nd Amendment has been interpreted as such. These sorts of things weren't contemplated by the founders. I suppose if you wanted to take a founders' intent POV, the 2nd Amendment protects musket ownership, but that's about it.

In my humble opinion, current 2nd Amendment protections go far beyond what the founders intended.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Oh, yeah, they're all treasonous dogs!(the current administration and the D's) To the barricades!

This would be an appropriate sarcastic response from one who believes in and likes socialized medicine, and listed tyranny of religion before tyranny of the government.

LiveLaughLove later posted this, which is correct and pertinent to the Kanto comments about the safe-from-tyranny country we live in:

"You mean like those second amendment rights that are untouchable? The creative minds have figured out work-arounds on the Constitution to parts they want reworked.

To those they can't, they are starting more and more to just ignore and call the Constitution irrelevant or malleable.

Look at property rights and eminent domain. Property rights were sacrosanct for decades upon decades. Now they can take your property just to get more tax revenue from someone else.

The list of liberties that have been taken just in the past few decades are breathtaking, but they do it drip drip style. So we are the frogs boiling and we think we have these immutable rights. Yeah, right."

[cleller]

Maybe they'll bury him in green tights.

[KantoSooner]

Hey Rush,
Sorry to delay my reponse. I go stay with my folks most weekends to work on their little property and unwind (it's part of this atheists 'family values' - bourbon time with the old man).
To take yet another sally at it, yeah, I'll try socialized medicine, considering that what we've had prior to whatever you want to call Obamacare got started was far, far away from a free market. I mean, in a free market, we wouldn't have a private club of competitors deciding who got to practice medicine, would we? We wouldn't have had a vast bureaucracy deciding what medicines could be sold (or who had to sign little pieces of paper with which to legalize such purchases). We wouldn't have had all manner of things that have meant that we haven't had a 'free market' for medical care in this country since probably circa 1910 or so. But feel free to counterpose bootless indeological purity against a willingness to consider other approaches if it makes you feel good.

Regarding tyranny of religion, I'm not sure that I did put it ahead of garden variety tyranny, but if you say so, I guess I'll just have to stand over next to the founders since they, too feared that tyranny. And specifically forbade the government to get into the religion business for precisely that reason.

Have fun fulminating.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Most folks SHOULD know that the
first Amendment 's religion provision is intended to prevent the govt. from establishing a State Religion, such as the Anglican, or Church of England. ABSOLUTELY "rocket science" haha

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

No doubt our health care industry has had major intrusions by the govt., and is far from being a free, or even over-regulated market. However, turning total control of the healthcare and health insurance industries over to the govt. is hardly a remedy for the govt. encroachment of the past.

[KantoSooner]

You've apparently missed the posts in which I saw little way the ACA was attacking rising costs. Or the ones in which I suggested that the Aussie public/private solution seemed worthy of study.
But, regarding single payer, 'socialized' medicine I did say, and will again right here to make it convenient, that I've lived in two such systems and they worked, overall, about as well as ours (whatever label you want to slap on it) works, were cheaper and covered more of the population. All those latter points are things that should be of some interest if we're trying to fix the mess we currently have.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Why would a government even WANT to run the healthcare industry? To feel confident and secure about that is very curious indeed. Yes, America has been Transformed. The job is far from over, though, and we haven't really felt most of the growing pains yet.

[Midtowner]

Why would a government even WANT to run the healthcare industry? To feel confident and secure about that is very curious indeed. Yes, America has been Transformed. The job is far from over, though, and we haven't really felt most of the growing pains yet.

Because the industry was doing a **** poor job of running itself from the view of our elected officials.

[KantoSooner]

I'm sure some megalomaniacs in government want to run everything.

Probably most want to run healthcare about as much as the GM CEO's wanted to run an HMO rather than a car company.

I'm as yet unconvinced that healthcare in this country is not so terminally screwed up that it can be fixed without either a total crash and burn or a government take over. And the two might not be all that far apart.

18% of our GNP?! Spent on healthcare? With something close to half of that either wasted or stolen? God Almighty, we've run very respectable successful, wars for a lot less than that. Hell, we helped the French retrieve their national sovereignty from the Lost 'N Found twice in the last century with an expenditure of not more than that.

There's been a transformation all right and it started with employer subsidized healthcare. To make our economy strong again, we are going to have to have affordable, individual, portable healthcare and pension benefits. I don't see the private insurance industry having the slightest interest in moving toward that goal. Frankly, I don't see anyone in government champing at the bit, either, but I think we've got a slightly better chance with them, given that they are going to be involved (through Medicare and Medicaid and Indian Health and the VA and Federal Employee Benefits) anyway.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I know you do. We are transformed. not completely, but operationally.

[Midtowner]

I'm sure some megalomaniacs in government want to run everything.

Probably most want to run healthcare about as much as the GM CEO's wanted to run an HMO rather than a car company.

I'm as yet unconvinced that healthcare in this country is not so terminally screwed up that it can be fixed without either a total crash and burn or a government take over. And the two might not be all that far apart.

18% of our GNP?! Spent on healthcare? With something close to half of that either wasted or stolen? God Almighty, we've run very respectable successful, wars for a lot less than that. Hell, we helped the French retrieve their national sovereignty from the Lost 'N Found twice in the last century with an expenditure of not more than that.

There's been a transformation all right and it started with employer subsidized healthcare. To make our economy strong again, we are going to have to have affordable, individual, portable healthcare and pension benefits. I don't see the private insurance industry having the slightest interest in moving toward that goal. Frankly, I don't see anyone in government champing at the bit, either, but I think we've got a slightly better chance with them, given that they are going to be involved (through Medicare and Medicaid and Indian Health and the VA and Federal Employee Benefits) anyway.

It's an incremental thing. Take what you can get today. If the ACA doesn't work so well at cutting costs, bring on single payer. If that doesn't work, bring on cost controls. If that somehow doesn't work, socialize the whole dang thing. The healthcare industry has the power to fix things and won't until we make it in their short term financial interests to do so.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The Cubans are holding him hostage so he can't get back to Venezuela in time for the inauguration.

The opposition party is saying, tough ****, if you can't make it. You're out.

Chavez needs to pray harder!

Hope it doesn't mess up the oil thing and spike prices. 8% of U.S. supply comes from Venezuela.