sure everyone has heard...26 dead, 18 kids in Conn school shooting

[Soonerjeepman]

very sad...

what is wrong with these idiots...course I'm sure the anti - gun folks will be in full force. Prayers for the children and families.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/14/police-respond-to-shooting-at-connecticut-elementary-school/

[LiveLaughLove]

Yep, horrible deal, all prayers for those affected.








Cue the gun control zombies to eat the flesh of the dead for political gain in 3....2....1.

[cleller]

As you've also probably heard, the gunman was a 24 year old whose mother worked at the school. He apparently started with her room.

I hope the media begins to recognize the necessity of portraying these gunmen as loathsome, depraved, impotent, despicable creatures rather than just mysterious loners.

[nutinbutdust]

This is sad my heart goes out to the victims and their families, those hurt or the children who had to had to witness such a horrible thing.

[Midtowner]

Not the right account...

[pphilfran]

As you've also probably heard, the gunman was a 24 year old whose mother worked at the school. He apparently started with her room.

I hope the media begins to recognize the necessity of portraying these gunmen as loathsome, depraved, impotent, despicable creatures rather than just mysterious loners.

I hope the media gives it about 2 minutes of coverage and then moves on....

[smooth3d]

^ His Twitter account.. explains a lot actually. Hate to say it, but considering the state of mental healthcare in this country, well, it explains a lot.[/QUOTE]

Thats not his account!

[KantoSooner]

Any ideas as to how we stop such people that doesn't unacceptably infringe on the rights of everyone else?

Alternatively, we just kind of shrug and figure that 18 kids every so once in a while is perfectly okay?

[Midtowner]

Thats not his account!

Too right. Apparently not.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Yep, the progressives will be all over this to kill gun ownership to save the children...

[Midtowner]

Yep, the progressives will be all over this to kill gun ownership to save the children...

That debate is coming, but this is not the time.

[5thYearSooner]

^This

[TheHumanAlphabet]

And so it begins...

The Socialist: "As a country, we have been through this too many times. Whether it is an elementary school in Newtown, or a shopping mall in Oregon, or a temple in Wisconsin, or a movie theater in Aurora, or a street corner in Chicago, these neighborhoods are our neighborhoods and these children are our children. And we’re going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics. "

[kevpks]

And so it begins...

The Socialist: "As a country, we have been through this too many times. Whether it is an elementary school in Newtown, or a shopping mall in Oregon, or a temple in Wisconsin, or a movie theater in Aurora, or a street corner in Chicago, these neighborhoods are our neighborhoods and these children are our children. And we’re going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics. "

So, what do you object to about that statement? Just curious. Would Bush have said something different? I don't see the socialism there but whatever.

By the way, here is the rest of the quote from your red-eyed monster: ""This evening Michelle and I will do whah every parent in America will do - hug our children a little tighter and tell them that we love them."

"There are families in Connecticut that cannot do that tonight and they need all of us tonight.

"May god bless the memory of the victims and in the words of scripture heal the broken hearted and bind up their wounds."

[olevetonahill]

That debate is coming, but this is not the time.

Actually That point is why he started this thread, Colleys thread in the S.O. is another matter

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Everything. What is meaningful action? We have enough gun laws on the books now. We don't need anything more or anything to restrict the 2nd amendment and my RIGHT to carry and purchase hand guns and semi-automatic rifles. The Socialist (i.e. the person sitting in the oval office) and the progressives as they have said have never met a "crisis" were they can't try to get their view implemented.

[Midtowner]

Actually That point is why he started this thread, Colleys thread in the S.O. is another matter

That doesn't make it right.

This is not the time.

Maybe take a couple of days, then we can talk about OMG TEH SOCIALIST IS COMING FOR MY GUNS!!!ONE11!!

[olevetonahill]

That doesn't make it right.

This is not the time.

Maybe take a couple of days, then we can talk about OMG TEH SOCIALIST IS COMING FOR MY GUNS!!!ONE11!!

And again, thats yer opinion .

[Soonerjeepman]

I started the thread for both...the kids mainly, and the coming "guns kill" knee jerk reaction from the left. I'm a teacher...my heart goes out to the families..I see our Kindergarteners and for the life of me cannot even fathom how anyone could point a gun at one and pull the trigger...just boggles the mind.

It's ironic, but most of the school killings have been in suburban schools...yet it's the urban poor kids/families that get the rap about having guns. We practice intruder alerts and our outside doors are locked at all times and have been that way for a long time... but that wouldn't have stopped this.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

You know this guy lived in NJ and went home to CT to kill his parents. His GF is missing as well. Will wait until the investigation to comment further. Why he had to go out in a blaze of "glory" is beyond me. The press should be banned for several days on reporting this until they can report facts, not emotional stories and what do you think responses.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Of course I am lifting up prayers tonight.

[LiveLaughLove]

You know this guy lived in NJ and went home to CT to kill his parents. His GF is missing as well. Will wait until the investigation to comment further. Why he had to go out in a blaze of "glory" is beyond me. The press should be banned for several days on reporting this until they can report facts, not emotional stories and what do you think responses.

Yeah I always wonder what it is in the psyche that doesn't just let them off themselves and not everyone else first. A little bit of vanity probably. A lot of crazy.

Not sure crazy can be legislated or predicted (outside of family and friends).

[olevetonahill]

Yeah I always wonder what it is in the psyche that doesn't just let them off themselves and not everyone else first. A little bit of vanity probably. A lot of crazy.

Not sure crazy can be legislated or predicted (outside of family and friends).

I'll say it again, This kinda carp is the Ultimate Violent Vid game

[TheHumanAlphabet]

You know, kill self, no one knows, maybe local news mention, kill self and GF maybe local story, kill self and parents mention in two locales maybe a state story, however, kill all above plus at Moms employment and a bunch of kids, a solid week to two weeks of international press. Lots of attention to a dead EVIL guy. Sure would like to see an embargo on the press for a while here...

[SoonerorLater]

Any ideas as to how we stop such people that doesn't unacceptably infringe on the rights of everyone else?

Alternatively, we just kind of shrug and figure that 18 kids every so once in a while is perfectly okay?

In a free society there isn't really anyway to absolutely prevent something like this. What's the alternative? You most likely won't see this type of thing in North Korea.

[LiveLaughLove]

You know, kill self, no one knows, maybe local news mention, kill self and GF maybe local story, kill self and parents mention in two locales maybe a state story, however, kill all above plus at Moms employment and a bunch of kids, a solid week to two weeks of international press. Lots of attention to a dead EVIL guy. Sure would like to see an embargo on the press for a while here...

Right, that's why I think ego is involved.

[C&CDean]

Since it is in the politics forum...and since we're just popping off a little bit...bet there's more than 20 abortions a day performed in Connecticut. Nobody GAS about that, why get all bent about this? Just a rhetorical question.

[TitoMorelli]

Years ago head cases like this usually just offed themselves. There seems to be a narcissistic sickness involved in the killings we witness these days.

Whether we should restrict access to weapons or not, I can't help feeling that the sickness that pervades the minds of those who have committed such heinous acts in increasing numbers is a sickness that is infecting virtually all of society, especially Generation Y.

[SoonerorLater]

More than anything your life view will define how you look at this. The usual suspects are hitting the media calling for gun control. The first thing I thought was maybe I need to beef up my arsenal. At this point the genie is out of the bottle. All gun control would do is create a partial unilateral disarmament of law abiding citizens. I just have this feeling that this is the graphic horror story that gun control advocates have been waiting for to advance their cause.

[Soonerjeepman]

Since it is in the politics forum...and since we're just popping off a little bit...bet there's more than 20 abortions a day performed in Connecticut. Nobody GAS about that, why get all bent about this? Just a rhetorical question.

agree...

[Soonerjeepman]

More than anything your life view will define how you look at this. The usual suspects are hitting the media calling for gun control. The first thing I thought was maybe I need to beef up my arsenal. At this point the genie is out of the bottle. All gun control would do is create a partial unilateral disarmament of law abiding citizens. I just have this feeling that this is the graphic horror story that gun control advocates have been waiting for to advance their cause.

and agree to this...why I put it here. I'm sorry, but NO the GUN didn't kill the kids...the crazy MF did. Granted maybe he just kills one or 2 with a knife or baseball bat...or maybe he makes a homemade bomb and drives a truck into the school. Gun control WON'T do a thing about this.

I'm also sorry Mid...obama DID make it political, HE mentioned that "something needs to be done without politics"...that sure as $hit isn't anything but gun control.

[FaninAma]

You are not going to get guns out of this society. You just aren't . There will have to be other measures taken. I know for a fact that there were at least 3 faculty at the high school my kids went to that were armed and I felt my kids were safer because they were.

The only other thing I can think of doing is having a metal detector in an anterior entry area and if the alarm is set off the school is automatically locked down before the assailant can enter.

[olevetonahill]

Wonder why It seems that everytime Gun owners gain ground in SCOTUS rulings or Bans that expire something like this happens to Stir up the GC crowd
STEP said there was a Kid killed over by his neck of the woods just because the shooter wanted to kill some one . Now Im seein where there was another shootin over a dayum NBA game.:blue:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/2-shot-philly-following-train-argument-between-bulls-192117187--nba.html

[Soonerjeepman]

FIA...really? wow how did they get that? it's a federal crime to have a gun on any school property. (if it's a no know thing that's cool).

I've worked in the inner city (KCK so not Chicago or NY style) for 23 yrs haven't seen but 2 guns. All our HS have metal detectors and all schools you must buzz to get in at ALL times. Granted not a great system...but my son's HS front door is open all the time and IF someone wanted to get into a classroom or cafeteria no biggie, just walk right past the office.

it will prob come to that (anterior entry). So you have 2 buzzers. Unfortunately this kid's mom worked there...so I'm sure the sect/principal saw him through the monitor and thought he was there to bring in lesson plans or something since she wasn't at work..dead.

I am taking an old set of golf clubs, we have guys in the building, so I figure we each get a club...better than nothing.

[FaninAma]

Soonerjeep, it is a country school and they knew the risk but there were enough trash in the area that it was needed, IMO. In fact, the school had been vandalized multiple times with one arson attack while my older 2 were there. 2 of the faculty have moved on and the other moved up into an administrative position.

There may have to be the equivalent of sky marshals stationed at schools.

[soonercruiser]

Since it is in the politics forum...and since we're just popping off a little bit...bet there's more than 20 abortions a day performed in Connecticut. Nobody GAS about that, why get all bent about this? Just a rhetorical question.

Wow! I agree with Dean!

#1 - "Let us pray"...for the families...and our country!

#2 - "funny" how fast the facts in the media changed! Now it's, not Ryan; but Adam was the shooter.
Let all the facts be analyzed and come to light before we try to "fix" ourselves.

#3 - When (and if) you pray, pray that our country will return to GOD and GODly lives and behavior!
When we kick out GOD in our society, guess who rushes in to fill the void? And the mindless, GODless pundits wonder how this can happen in America. They wil spend countless hours on the TV analyzing everything in our society, except the root cause!

[soonercruiser]

So, what do you object to about that statement? Just curious. Would Bush have said something different? I don't see the socialism there but whatever.

By the way, here is the rest of the quote from your red-eyed monster: ""This evening Michelle and I will do whah every parent in America will do - hug our children a little tighter and tell them that we love them."

"There are families in Connecticut that cannot do that tonight and they need all of us tonight.

"May god bless the memory of the victims and in the words of scripture heal the broken hearted and bind up their wounds."

Unfortunately, our socialist President made it political, when he couldn't just pass along prayers and concern.
He is the one who injected, and always injects politics into sad events. He could have just kept his mouth shut! But, NOOOOO!
("Never let a crisis go unused"....Alinskyian proverb.)

Bush never made political hay from such sad happenings!

[FaninAma]

I read a letter in a psychiatric journal from a man in his mid 20's that described the mental demons he had dealt with and was continuing to deal with. He attributed a lot of his emotional problems to the fact that he was raised in a single mother home which was disfunctional. During his journey through life to that point he had been in prison, in mental hospitals and drug rehab wards. He stated that he ran into hundredS and hundreds of young men with the same background as his. The ending of his letter was very foreboding with a chilling warning that this country wasn't ready for the wave of emotionally damaged men like him who had been raised in disfunctional family settings.

I don't know why but that letter is one of the first things I thought of when I heard about this tragedy.

[Sooner5030]

I just can't see how an adult can go into a school and shoot little kids. While I dont agree with it and would never do it I can see how someone could be motivated to shoot another adult over a disagreement or something. There's no logical explanation for someone to be motivated to do this though.

[C&CDean]

I read a letter in a psychiatric journal from a man in his mid 20's that described the mental demons he had dealt with and was continuing to deal with. He attributed a lot of his emotional problems to the fact that he was raised in a single mother home which was disfunctional. During his journey through life to that point he had been in prison, in mental hospitals and drug rehab wards. He stated that he ran into hundredS and hundreds of young men with the same background as his. The ending of his letter was very foreboding with a chilling warning that this country wasn't ready for the wave of emotionally damaged men like him who had been raised in disfunctional family settings.

I don't know why but that letter is one of the first things I thought of when I heard about this tragedy.

When I was first starting college I was taking a sociology class at Pima Community College in Tucson. This was about 1982 or so. A guest speaker from some social services outfit came in to speak. His thesis was as follows:

"The dramatic increase in juvenile delinquency we're experiencing is a direct result of the breakdown of the family unit. Approximately 90% of male juvenile delinquents come from broken homes; where the primary parent is the mother.

Young females raised in homes where the mother is the primary parent have a much higher rate of teenage pregnancy, drug useage, and delinquency - especially if the parents are divorced. If the father dies, a large percentage of female children postpone having sex until much later, and sometimes have serious issues with sex.

The lack of close personal relationships between parents and children; the lack of discipline in the home; the lack of family values is destroying our society. Parents trying to be friends with their children rather than parents; parents buying drugs and alcohol - and sometimes sharing drugs and alcohol with their children, are eroding the foundation of America. When this new society begins to mature and we see the fruits of what we are sowing, it will be grim. The violence and hatred we will experience will boggle the mind. I am not sure if the foundation America has been built on - God, family, country, independence - can survive it."

This was over 30 years ago. Sounds to me like dude was pretty much spot on.

[FaninAma]

Dean, I see it every day in my job. Parents that can't even take care of themselves emotionally or even physically a lot of the times and who have no business having kids. I do think there is a genetic prediposition to mental illness in a lot of cases but environment plays a major role, too.

I'm not saying that all kids have to be raised by Ozzie and Harriet type families but there has to be somebody who acts like an adult and that the child or adolescent knows they can depend on or will be there when they need them.

The fact that the older brother hadn't talked to the shooter in over 2 years tells me this family wasn't very functional.

[C&CDean]

Dean, I see it every day in my job. Parents that can't even take care of themselves emotionally or even physically a lot of the times and who have no business having kids. I do think there is a genetic prediposition to mental illness in a lot of cases but environment plays a major role, too.

I'm not saying that all kids have to be raised by Ozzie and Harriet type families but there has to be somebody who acts like an adult and that the child or adolescent knows they can depend on or will be there when they need them.

The fact that the older brother hadn't talked to the shooter in over 2 years tells me this family wasn't very functional.

I don't know if you remember the kid named John Michael that Luke used to hang out with. Big red headed kid? Anyhow, his mom had him and one other son. Different dads, neither of them present.

The older boy turned out to be a druggie worthless POS in and out of jail. John Michael? Playing collegiate baseball at Arkie Pine Bluff. Great kid. Difference? A dude from Big Brothers came into his life when he was about a 1st grader. Always there, never let him down. Jumped his *** when he did wrong, praised/rewarded him when he did right. Guy is still involved in his life. Hell, his name is Scott Heupel and if anyone knows him tell him he did a great job working with John Michael. Without him I have no doubt where JM would be today. And don't get me wrong, JM's mom has done a great job as well - primarily reinforcing what Scott was doing as a surrogate father.

[Wishboned]

NBC reported this morning that Lanza tried to purchase a rifle before the shooting but was denied because of Connecticutt's strict gun laws that require a waiting period.

So the law worked. He was not LEGALLY able to acquire a gun.

[Midtowner]

So the law worked.

The body count suggests otherwise. Maybe that particular statute, but the overall law was ineffective. I don't believe that as long as we have firearms in our country we can account for all of them. Occasionally, we'll have a psychotic person do something absolutely evil.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Eff you. The law work, he stole his Mom's guns. Your higher than thou attitude is growing tiredsome.

[Midtowner]

he stole his Mom's guns.

Would you be against legislation requiring gun owners to have their firearms properly secured and creating liability for them in the event they are careless in storing them? Of course, if the mother had kept her guns in a decent gun safe in a house with a mentally disturbed son, this whole thing may have been averted.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I agree. We don't have a safe, but are purchasing one, we have ours locked up elsewhere. She should have had one, IMO, especially with kids or an unstable kid. She may even had one, but if he knew how to open it, thats not good.

[C&CDean]

Would you be against legislation requiring gun owners to have their firearms properly secured and creating liability for them in the event they are careless in storing them? Of course, if the mother had kept her guns in a decent gun safe in a house with a mentally disturbed son, this whole thing may have been averted.

So, if somebody steals your car and robs a bank you're liable? Or maybe gets drunk and kills somebody? WTF is wrong with you?

[Midtowner]

So, if somebody steals your car and robs a bank you're liable? Or maybe gets drunk and kills somebody? WTF is wrong with you?

If you are dumb enough to leave a deadly weapon in your vehicle for anyone to steal, hell yes.

[kevpks]

At least ESPN is taking action. Their announcers in the New Mexico Bowl said that today they would be referring to the pistol offense as the Nevada formation. I'm not sure what that accomplishes but whatever.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

At least ESPN is taking action. Their announcers in the New Mexico Bowl said that today they would be referring to the pistol offense as the Nevada formation. I'm not sure what that accomplishes but whatever.
They're being sensitive for both of the fans watching the New Mexico Bowl

[C&CDean]

If you are dumb enough to leave a deadly weapon in your vehicle for anyone to steal, hell yes.

What about a hammer or screwdriver? Tire iron? They're deadly as hell. How about let's just make the criminal liable?

[C&CDean]

They're being sensitive for both of the fans watching the New Mexico Bowl

OK. I chuckled.

[Midtowner]

What about a hammer or screwdriver? Tire iron? They're deadly as hell. How about let's just make the criminal liable?

A screwdriver is as deadly as a gun?

Why are you against laws requiring gun owners to be responsible?

[C&CDean]

A screwdriver is as deadly as a gun?

Why are you against laws requiring gun owners to be responsible?

In the hands of a trained ninja, hells yes.

We already have enough laws on gun ownership. Why not make laws where crimes commited with a gun are punishable by immediate death? Life imprisonment? It'd be a lot more effective than what you're proposing. "I know, let's put some poor bastard who got robbed in prison cause the perp used a gun he stole from his house in a crime." Sometimes you're thick as a brick.

[C&CDean]

BTW, I sell hay to a guy whose hunting cabin by Konawa was broken into. Guess what? They used a tractor and stole his whole ****ing gun safe. But let's put him in jail. Sheez.

[Midtowner]

In the hands of a trained ninja, hells yes.

That's ridiculous and you know it. If everyone in the world was a ninja, maybe you'd have something. To make a gun work, all I have to do is be able to point it and squeeze the trigger.


"I know, let's put some poor bastard who got robbed in prison cause the perp used a gun he stole from his house in a crime."

If that "poor bastard" had a decent gun safe, the perp wouldn't have been able to steal the gun. Under what I'm proposing, he would not have negligently stored the weapon. Had the perp broken in and had time to drill the safe or something like that, I wouldn't think it reasonable to hold him liable.

If he's driving around and leaves his pistol on the passenger's seat in plain view and someone breaks in and steals it, liable. If he keeps it hidden under the front seat in a hidden holster, not liable. If you're going to have a gun, you need to be responsible for it. I wonder whether the mother in the CT case had her guns in a safe or secured at all.

[FirstandGoal]

That's ridiculous and you know it. If everyone in the world was a ninja, maybe you'd have something. To make a gun work, all I have to do is be able to point it and squeeze the trigger.



If that "poor bastard" had a decent gun safe, the perp wouldn't have been able to steal the gun. Under what I'm proposing, he would not have negligently stored the weapon. Had the perp broken in and had time to drill the safe or something like that, I wouldn't think it reasonable to hold him liable.

If he's driving around and leaves his pistol on the passenger's seat in plain view and someone breaks in and steals it, liable. If he keeps it hidden under the front seat in a hidden holster, not liable. If you're going to have a gun, you need to be responsible for it. I wonder whether the mother in the CT case had her guns in a safe or secured at all.

LOL, and with that my friend, you go on iggy as someone too damned stupid for me to be wasting any further time reading posts.

So instead of the criminal who actually steals the gun being responsible, you wanna prosecute the victim of the crime?

That's like saying its a beautiful girl's fault she gets raped because she went outside her house and was seen by a perp. So, instead of blaming the rapist, we blame the girl because she was out in plain sight.


Yeah, F that logic.

[C&CDean]

That's like saying its a beautiful girl's fault she gets raped because she went outside her house and was seen by a perp. So, instead of blaming the rapist, we blame the girl because she was out in plain sight.


Yeah, F that logic.

If we're gonna be fair, this is exactly what Mid is proposing.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

But she was wearing a REAAAAAAALY short skirt!

It was just SCREAMING "rape me!"

[FaninAma]

Anybody else notice that the psychos are attacking places where they know no one is carrying a concealed handgun....malls, theaters, schools.

Personally I would give up every gun I own if the government could assure me that they've disarmed the nut jobs and criminals. If a gunman came into any public place where my kids were my ferverent hope would be that somebody who can handle a gun like Dean was present and armed.

Dean, I do remember Luke's friend. Glad to hear he is doing well.

[Midtowner]

Anybody else notice that the psychos are attacking places where they know no one is carrying a concealed handgun....malls, theaters, schools.

Personally I would give up every gun I own if the government could assure me that they've disarmed the nut jobs and criminals. If a gunman came into any public place where my kids were my ferverent hope would be that somebody who can handle a gun like Dean was present and armed.

Disarmament has occurred in a lot of countries. It takes time and it doesn't work 100%, but you can't argue with the numbers, over time, it works.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

That'd be great if it wasn't one of those pesky rights we keep hearing about. You know, the equal to the right that let's us sit around here and talk about these rights without fear of getting dragged off by the secret police.

You know, that whole Constitution thing those old guys in tights and powdered wigs put together.

[Soonerjeepman]

That'd be great if it wasn't one of those pesky rights we keep hearing about. You know, the equal to the right that let's us sit around here and talk about these rights without fear of getting dragged off by the secret police.

You know, that whole Constitution thing those old guys in tights and powdered wigs put together.

no SHI!...totally agree, no in he11 I want ONLY the gov/police with guns...yes I know a 9mm can't do jack against a tank or such. WOW NEVER will I agree for all guns to be banned...just isn't going to happen I hope.

[Soonerjeepman]

What about a hammer or screwdriver? Tire iron? They're deadly as hell. How about let's just make the criminal liable?

what about the WHOLE FRICKING CAR...if they steal THAT and kill someone...jeeze Mid, sometimes your logic comes across as totally off the rocker...
The problem is common sense, her son had issues, hell maybe that's shy she had the gun to defend herself from him...course that didn't work. I agree she should have had ANY safe, or a cable, something. Bottom line is, he would have done something....yes prob not killed 26 people.

[C&CDean]

Disarmament has occurred in a lot of countries. It takes time and it doesn't work 100%, but you can't argue with the numbers, over time, it works.

Yeah, countries where the government murders it's citizen because....they can. No thanks.

[olevetonahill]

The body count suggests otherwise. Maybe that particular statute, but the overall law was ineffective. I don't believe that as long as we have firearms in our country we can account for all of them. Occasionally, we'll have a psychotic person do something absolutely evil.

If guns scare you so bad why dont you Move to Canada or England or some place ?

[cleller]

So now there has been another shooting at a hospital in Alabama,


And some kid in Bartlesville arrested for plotting another massacre.

http://news.yahoo.com/okla-teen-arrested-school-shooting-plot-184243533.html

[Soonerjeepman]

wow, glad they stopped him.

[Sooner5030]

I guess I need to go down to Cabelas and finally buy that 9mm i've been looking at for awhile now. Once these Statist F-sticks convince the mob that we need more intervention it will only get harder to buy a hand gun.

[Wishboned]

If guns scare you so bad why dont you Move to Canada or England or some place ?

Or Mexico. They have really strict gun laws there and no one ever dies from gun violence.

[Sooner5030]

I didn't even know until this last shooting but apparently the largest school massacre in US history didn't even involve hand guns or assault rifles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[Wishboned]

The body count suggests otherwise. Maybe that particular statute, but the overall law was ineffective. I don't believe that as long as we have firearms in our country we can account for all of them. Occasionally, we'll have a psychotic person do something absolutely evil.

No, the law did work. Legally he was unable to get his hands on a gun.

Wait...do you mean that he might not care about the law? How could that be? Even psychotic killers have respect for the law. They have to.

And like I said in another thread. If you're a sick enough **** to shoot small children then you're sick enough to come up with another method of mass murder.

[EnragedOUfan]

Drastic times require drastic measures.........I'd be all for metal detectors and a police officer posted at every school in the nation. Just like the Patriot Act, sometimes crazy sh$t needs to happen, especially with the high number of nut jobs running around in America.

If we can afford to be at war for 11 plus years, we could afford posting officers at every school. If it required a tax increase, so be it. I get that gun violence can't be prevented, but there are things that can sure as hell mitigate sh#t from happening....

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Disarmament has occurred in a lot of countries. It takes time and it doesn't work 100%, but you can't argue with the numbers, over time, it works.

And over time the government no longer respects people and passes laws that are against the people. As the framers said, you give up your gun, you give into tyranny.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Mid, you think gun confsication will work. Hell no! Just look at the bastians of Eutopia, Chicago and DC??? strictest gun laws in the country, they are murder and crime capitals...

[LiveLaughLove]

And over time the government no longer respects people and passes laws that are against the people. As the framers said, you give up your gun, you give into tyranny.

They don't care about the framers. They just get in the way of progress. Same for the Constitution (when it fits a progressive agenda). Those are old outdated people of no consequence to us now. We are in the age of enlightenment where the state knows what's best for us.

[Midtowner]

Yeah, countries where the government murders it's citizen because....they can. No thanks.

Like the UK? When has it done that?

[Midtowner]

Mid, you think gun confsication will work. Hell no! Just look at the bastians of Eutopia, Chicago and DC??? strictest gun laws in the country, they are murder and crime capitals...

It's worked other places... and how about NYC and Cali? Some of the strictest gun controls in the U.S. went into effect in those places and gun related crimes plummeted.

As far as D.C., with gun laws, their rates have decreased, but are still high.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Dchomicidechart.svg/250px-Dchomicidechart.svg.png

Chicago homicides are also way down.

1990: 851[6]
1991: 927[7]
1992: 943[7]
1993: 855[7]
1994: 931[7]
1995: 828[7]
1996: 796[7]
1997: 761[7]
1998: 704[7]
1999: 643[7]
2000: 633[7]
2001: 667[7]
2002: 656[7]
2003: 601[7]
2004: 453[7]
2005: 451[7]
2006: 471[7]
2007: 448[7]
2008: 513[7]
2009: 459[7]
2010: 436[7]
2011: 433[7]
2012: 488(to date)[8]

(from wikipedia)

Looking at overall rates is useless if you don't understand trends. Will these laws stop everything? Nope. Will they help in addressing what has been a very serious problem for us? The trends say yes.

[Midtowner]

Those are old outdated people of no consequence to us now. We are in the age of enlightenment where the state knows what's best for us.

These are people who owned slaves and believed you had to be a white land-owning male to participate in society, so yes, their views are kind of outmoded.

[Midtowner]

And like I said in another thread. If you're a sick enough **** to shoot small children then you're sick enough to come up with another method of mass murder.

But when you have a machine built for the sole purpose of taking human life which can fire 100 rounds without a reload, that method is lots easier and can be acted upon on just a whim.

[nutinbutdust]

LINKY (http://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2012/12/17/lets-have-that-conversation-about-guns-n1468596)

Here is the article

Let’s Have That Conversation About Guns

For once I agree with liberals. It’s high time to have a conversation about guns. Let’s start with the problem that there are far too few guns on our streets.

Wait, we can’t have that conversation. In fact, we’re not supposed to have what people might commonly describe as a “conversation” at all. We’re supposed to shut-up and listen as liberals, barely masking their unseemly delight at the opportunity, try to pin the murder rampage of one degenerate creep on millions of law-abiding Americans who did nothing wrong. The conversation is then supposed to end with us waiving our fundamental right to self-defense.

Because that is what the goal is – a total ban on the private ownership of firearms. There’s always another “common sense” gun law which fails because it is targeted at law-abiding citizens and not criminals, thereby inviting another round of onerous new restrictions until finally no citizen is keeping or bearing anything more than a dull butter knife.

Well, almost no citizens. “Gun control” means all guns under the control of the government and available only to it and, of course, to politically connected cronies. Gun-grabbing poser Michael Bloomberg is going to be surrounded by enough fire power to remake the movie Heat. He’s always going to be protected. The purpose of gun control is to ensure that we aren’t.

So let’s have that conversation, and let’s lay the cards on the table. Modern firearms (which really aren’t that modern) are highly effective weapons in the hands of an evil little freak who gets off shooting children. They are also highly effective weapons in my hands when defending my children from evil little freaks.

Liberals ask why I need these weapons. The answer is simple. I’m going to be as well-armed or better armed than the threat. Period.

Here’s the fact – bad people are going to have guns. And if you’ve ever smoked a joint, you are disqualified from arguing that prohibition works.

So, while we are talking, let’s talk about what we lawyers call “causation.” Since apparently we need a whole batch of new laws, perhaps we ought to see what laws might have prevented this crime. Well, we outlawed murder, but that didn’t seem to help. We outlawed stealing, but that creep stole the guns from his mother. He transported them, took them to a school, loaded them – all criminal violations, as was merely possessing the pistols at his age.

Well, maybe he would have been stopped by new laws. Maybe we could ban 30 round magazines? Well, when one walks into a class of children it is unlikely that a couple more magazine changes – a relatively unskilled user can do it in three seconds – would make much difference.

[Midtowner]

So, while we are talking, let’s talk about what we lawyers call “causation.” Since apparently we need a whole batch of new laws, perhaps we ought to see what laws might have prevented this crime. Well, we outlawed murder, but that didn’t seem to help. We outlawed stealing, but that creep stole the guns from his mother. He transported them, took them to a school, loaded them – all criminal violations, as was merely possessing the pistols at his age.

Perhaps a law requiring gun owners to have safes or some sort of secure storage for their weapons? Trigger locks? Those two requirements, had mama Lanza followed the law would have likely prevented this whole thing.

But the NRA nuts won't even have that conversation. Instead, they make ridiculous claims that the left is out to get all of the guns.

[jkjsooner]

what is wrong with these idiots...course I'm sure the anti - gun folks will be in full force.

As will the people who say we need guns in school. If you're going to be critical of someone for expressing an opinion at least be consistent.


Wait, we can’t have that conversation. In fact, we’re not supposed to have what people might commonly describe as a “conversation” at all. We’re supposed to shut-up and listen as liberals, barely masking their unseemly delight at the opportunity, try to pin the murder rampage of one degenerate creep on millions of law-abiding Americans who did nothing wrong.

The comment about unseemly delight is irresponsible, insulting, and hypocritical. I could accuse the writer of his own unseemly delight at being given the opportunity to push for more guns on the street.

It's funny. You see liberals expecting conservatives to shut up. I see conservatives willing to push their own agendas and expecting liberals to shut up.

[C&CDean]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

None of it changes my MO. Guns for everyone this Christmas.

[KantoSooner]

So let’s have that conversation, and let’s lay the cards on the table. Modern firearms (which really aren’t that modern) are highly effective weapons in the hands of an evil little freak who gets off shooting children. They are also highly effective weapons in my hands when defending my children from evil little freaks.

Liberals ask why I need these weapons. The answer is simple. I’m going to be as well-armed or better armed than the threat. Period.


Nutin,
Connecticut is probably not a very heavily armed state in terms of concealed carry or open carry, so may not be a valid example. But Arizona? Gabby Giffords herself owns a Glock if memory serves. Colorado is not too tea sip a place, certainly not Aurora, or Columbine. And so forth. It seems like these events are taking place in places where red meat is consumed regularly and men know how to change a tire.
Have any of these events been stopped or shortened by armed citizens? I don't recall hearing of any such instance but am prepared to be corrected if you know of one.
I think we should have precisely the conversation you propose; I'm just not sure if the 'public force' argument has any legs.

[olevetonahill]

But when you have a machine built for the sole purpose of taking human life which can fire 100 rounds without a reload, that method is lots easier and can be acted upon on just a whim.

****ing Idiot :distrust:

[nutinbutdust]

Nutin,
Connecticut is probably not a very heavily armed state in terms of concealed carry or open carry, so may not be a valid example. But Arizona? Gabby Giffords herself owns a Glock if memory serves. Colorado is not too tea sip a place, certainly not Aurora, or Columbine. And so forth. It seems like these events are taking place in places where red meat is consumed regularly and men know how to change a tire.
Have any of these events been stopped or shortened by armed citizens? I don't recall hearing of any such instance but am prepared to be corrected if you know of one.
I think we should have precisely the conversation you propose; I'm just not sure if the 'public force' argument has any legs.

Here is something the networks arent mentioning.

LINKY (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/daniel-zimmerman/clackamas-shooter-confronted-by-ccw-holder/)

Clackamas Shooter Was Confronted by CCW Holder

Have you wondered why, in such a target rich environment as a suburban shopping mall two weeks before Christmas, the shooter at the Clackamas Town Center only managed to kill two people before dousing his own lights? Part of the reason was a dodgy gun. But as is being reported by kgw.com, part was also due to the fact that, gun-free zone or not, Jacob Roberts was confronted by Nick Meli who was armed and has a concealed carry permit. No, he didn’t fire because he feared hitting an innocent person behind Roberts if he missed. But Roberts knew Meli was there: “I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself.” David Frum was unavailable for comment.

[nutinbutdust]

Most people dont get my handle here. I was shooting a lot of sporting clays when I took Nutinbutdust. It is what we said when you really whack a clay target hard! I have seen a lot of mention about responsible gun owners should be required to buy a safe. Hell I own a safe. It is still on a pallet in my basement but it weighs 700 lbs. I personally do not want to mess with anyone with the capacity to carry the safe out. I own some Pidgeon grade over unders that i use for Clay targets and for some limited bird hunting. These are very expensive shotguns, and I sure as hell dont want em growing legs. With that said there might still be some handguns in the house that aint in the safe. I dont understand why anyone that owns guns doesnt want a way to keep thieves from taking them. That is why i bought a safe. It's too bad there wasnt one in Conn.

[C&CDean]

Most people dont get my handle here. I was shooting a lot of sporting clays when I took Nutinbutdust. It is what we said when you really whack a clay target hard! I have seen a lot of mention about responsible gun owners should be required to buy a safe. Hell I own a safe. It is still on a pallet in my basement but it weighs 700 lbs. I personally do not want to mess with anyone with the capacity to carry the safe out. I own some Pidgeon grade over unders that i use for Clay targets and for some limited bird hunting. These are very expensive shotguns, and I sure as hell dont want em growing legs. With that said there might still be some handguns in the house that aint in the safe. I dont understand why anyone that owns guns doesnt want a way to keep thieves from taking them. That is why i bought a safe. It's too bad there wasnt one in Conn.

I have a safe, but it's over-full and always unlocked. I keep one of those anti-moisture packets in there to help protect the guns though.

Here's my deal; I have guns in every room of my house, my garage, my barns and shop, and from where I lay in bed there is a .357, a 12-gauge pistol gripped riot shotgun loaded with low-base #8 shot, a .22 Mag rifle all within reach. If I stand up and take about 3 steps there is a 22-250, a .223 AR, and a .480 Mag handy. All are loaded, and only the revolvers have an empty cylinder under the hammer.

My reasoning is this: If you make it into my house and I'm in bed you're gonna get either the .357 or the 12-gauge. If I only wound you and you're running you're gonna get the .22 mag up the crack of your ***. If you make it any further than say 50-yards or so you're gonna get a .223 or 22.250, and if I knock you down and you're still squirming you're gonna get the .480 Mag which will absolutely insure you won't be lying in court.

Folks that have been to my crib can vouch for how safe my farm is.

[olevetonahill]

Just pointin out Dean on the Modern revolver ya dont NEED to keep the Hammer on an empty cylinder.

[nutinbutdust]

I have a safe, but it's over-full and always unlocked. I keep one of those anti-moisture packets in there to help protect the guns though.

Here's my deal; I have guns in every room of my house, my garage, my barns and shop, and from where I lay in bed there is a .357, a 12-gauge pistol gripped riot shotgun loaded with low-base #8 shot, a .22 Mag rifle all within reach. If I stand up and take about 3 steps there is a 22-250, a .223 AR, and a .480 Mag handy. All are loaded, and only the revolvers have an empty cylinder under the hammer.

My reasoning is this: If you make it into my house and I'm in bed you're gonna get either the .357 or the 12-gauge. If I only wound you and you're running you're gonna get the .22 mag up the crack of your ***. If you make it any further than say 50-yards or so you're gonna get a .223 or 22.250, and if I knock you down and you're still squirming you're gonna get the .480 Mag which will absolutely insure you won't be lying in court.

Folks that have been to my crib can vouch for how safe my farm is.

I have nothing against what you said dean, more people like you and I think there would be less robberies. My main fear of my expensive shotguns walking off would be if I wasn't home. Unfortunatly I live in a large metro suburban area, while break ins aren't common in my neighborhood, they aren't unheard of.

[C&CDean]

I have nothing against what you said dean, more people like you and I think there would be less robberies. My main fear of my expensive shotguns walking off would be if I wasn't home. Unfortunatly I live in a large metro suburban area, while break ins aren't common in my neighborhood, they aren't unheard of.

Why I don't live anywhere near town. There's also only one way in and one way out. My drive is between a quarter/half mile long. Keys to every vehicle I own (and there's a bunch) are in the ignitions, and I haven't owned a key to my door for over 10 years. I've never once thought "I wonder if somebody is stealing my ****?" or woke up when on a business trip and thought "I wonder of momma is OK?" I wouldn't have it any other way.

[C&CDean]

Just pointin out Dean on the Modern revolver ya dont NEED to keep the Hammer on an empty cylinder.

Says an older dog than me. Habit bro. And I KNOW it ain't gonna fire if momma drops it or something.

[olevetonahill]

Says an older dog than me. Habit bro. And I KNOW it ain't gonna fire if momma drops it or something.

I know, Bro . Old habits are hard to break and in this case theres really no need to.

[KantoSooner]

speaking of dogs, that's my preferred security system. A couple of german shepherds and then 5+ hangers on in the form of labs, setters, airedales, a standard poodle. You know a long time before anyone gets to the house. **** 'em off enough and they'll hunt down an intruder. You can't play frisbee wiith a .357. Downside: the .357 doesn't leave little 'presents' all the yard to step in.

[Soonerjeepman]

Perhaps a law requiring gun owners to have safes or some sort of secure storage for their weapons? Trigger locks? Those two requirements, had mama Lanza followed the law would have likely prevented this whole thing.

IF she followed the law...if son had followed the law then NONE would have happened. But like I said before, maybe something to that effect, but going after her wouldn't matter, she's dead. It might have made it a bit harder, but the dude was going to kill no matter what.

[Soonerjeepman]

As will the people who say we need guns in school. If you're going to be critical of someone for expressing an opinion at least be consistent.



The comment about unseemly delight is irresponsible, insulting, and hypocritical. I could accuse the writer of his own unseemly delight at being given the opportunity to push for more guns on the street.

It's funny. You see liberals expecting conservatives to shut up. I see conservatives willing to push their own agendas and expecting liberals to shut up.
I"m a teacher, and do not advocate guns in school...to a degree, if I was CC (which I'm doing in Jan) and the PE teacher who is very good with a gun, were allowed then I would.

[C&CDean]

speaking of dogs, that's my preferred security system. A couple of german shepherds and then 5+ hangers on in the form of labs, setters, airedales, a standard poodle. You know a long time before anyone gets to the house. **** 'em off enough and they'll hunt down an intruder. You can't play frisbee wiith a .357. Downside: the .357 doesn't leave little 'presents' all the yard to step in.

Got them too. They're actually the first-line, however, they're really nice dogs and if a thief plays it right they'll just lick him to death.

[KantoSooner]

That's why you need one or two german shepherds. They don't ever get nicey with unknown people. And the others follow their lead.

[C&CDean]

That's why you need one or two german shepherds. They don't ever get nicey with unknown people. And the others follow their lead.

Yeah, but the only dog I've ever been afraid of was a German Shepherd. Crazy sumbitch too. I raised him from a pup (got him from the dog pound) and I should have shot him when he was half-grown. Absolutely would not listen/be trained and had those crazy eyes - and was impervious to pain/punishment. By the time he was full grown he was over 100 lbs. and ferocious to strangers. I had young kids at the time and finally took him for a ride. Just wasn't worth having him around. No shepherds since then.

[KantoSooner]

Hmmm. I haven't had that experience, but the ones I've had came from parents I knew...and probably grandparents I had known as well when I come to think of it. So, maybe I've just had good luck. Last one I had went about 75 lbs and was so obviously the alpha dog that it was hilarious. The others would mess with him for 45 minutes and then he'd give them 'the look' and BOOM, they were in line.
I just like the fact that the dogs have intelligence and know when to chill out.

[jkjsooner]

Yeah, but the only dog I've ever been afraid of was a German Shepherd. Crazy sumbitch too. I raised him from a pup (got him from the dog pound) and I should have shot him when he was half-grown. Absolutely would not listen/be trained and had those crazy eyes - and was impervious to pain/punishment. By the time he was full grown he was over 100 lbs. and ferocious to strangers. I had young kids at the time and finally took him for a ride. Just wasn't worth having him around. No shepherds since then.

I think there's always random exceptions in dogs just as humans but my shepherd was by far the best dog I've ever had. He would never leave my side and even in his latest stages degenerative myelopathy he would drag his 110 lbs self up the stairs with his front legs if that meant being close to me. (I of course wouldn't let him do it alone if I knew he was doing it.)

He could appear very menancing and had those protective instincts but never hurt a flea and if an intruder just bent down to pet him he would have greeted him with with a lick and a tail wag.

Probably not a good guard dog but a great dog. Miss that dog so much.

[C&CDean]

Hmmm. I haven't had that experience, but the ones I've had came from parents I knew...and probably grandparents I had known as well when I come to think of it. So, maybe I've just had good luck. Last one I had went about 75 lbs and was so obviously the alpha dog that it was hilarious. The others would mess with him for 45 minutes and then he'd give them 'the look' and BOOM, they were in line.
I just like the fact that the dogs have intelligence and know when to chill out.

Yeah, I'm sure my dog was just a freak of the breed.

Right now my little fat, deaf, toothless, old rat terrier is the alpha. It cracks me up to see him run a 90-pound Great Pyrenees off the food dish and away from my wife when she wants to pet or feed the Pyrenees. I'd consider a shephered again, but I worry about their health issues. Rats pretty much have no issues, where shephereds got all the hip/back deals.

[KantoSooner]

I'm thinking English Setter or Flatcoat Retriever for my next one. Useless dogs. Lots of extra hair/skin. Excellent for laying on top of one's feet during the wintertime. So much a part of the family that they get sibling rivalry with the kids/grandkids. Only dogs I've ever known to both fall for the 'fetching a snowball' trick....and then successfully retrieve the dam thing.
Also very talented at tubing on the lake during the summer and 'scouting the waters' by riding in the front of a canoe.

[olevetonahill]

Got them too. They're actually the first-line, however, they're really nice dogs and if a thief plays it right they'll just lick him to death.

Hell yer dogs are like mine, OLD fat and just want pettin

[8timechamps]

Getting back to the topic, it sickens me when the knee-jerk reaction to these things is "MOAR GUN CONTROLZ!!!!".

I was reminded this morning of something that Thomas Jefferson said, that I believe sums it up nicely:

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

As more details are revealed in this case, the more I see how mentally disturbed this individual was (not that it's a surprise), and the more I see no father present in his life. The shooter's mom (RIP) realized he had issues, but rather than seeking professional help, she chose to home school him, or cancel weekend plans if she felt like it would upset him. While I'll never understand how someone could shoot children, the more I hear about this sick-o, the more I understand the failures that led to the end result.

[Soonerjeepman]

but...but.....the guns were LEGAL...need to take them all. (sarcasm)

I totally agree, unfortunately the majority of the "general" public who does not own or shoot guns will not see it that way. Had a lady on the radio today that apparently her son has aspergers, was saying how the fact he had that will now make people prej towards kids like her son. Can't win or lose on this.

JUST saw on news....a gun shop...or pawn shop...the lead in was "neighbors want the neighborhood store the ol heave hoh.." proves my point that general folks don't see guns like we do.

[TitoMorelli]

Found this comment on a favorite blog, and thought it worth sharing:



The most striking thing I’ve read in other sites was the observation that people never objected to having a guard at the bank protecting money but guarding kids would simply be wrong. This strikes me as more of a theological objection than a real one.

Most people understand that if shotguns aren’t for defending valuable things or people then what are they for? The Second Amendment exists within the framework of use. It’s framers were practical men. It ought to contribute to individual home security; it ought to give pause to attackers both foreign and domestic. Guns do not exist, at least in my view, for an abstract purpose.

In history firearms have played the same part as bladed weapons; they were tools — not irrational objects. They are only put to irrational uses, but they are just tools in themselves. I think they have since become theological objects.

I remember being in Jerusalem and watching groups of Israelis walking by with the old M1 carbine of memory and it had the same quality of invisibility I remember from seeing the same thing when growing up. After all when you’ve seen one carbine you’ve seen them all. I have thought about it since and realized that I had been conditioned to watch the man, not the gun.

It is the man that is variable. The gun itself is identical to the millions of others manufactured during World War 2. It is nothing of itself, unless it is pointing in an unsafe manner toward you.

No, it is the man you should look at. And I believe most people who have grown up seeing firearms and who are inured to its ‘shock value’ have the same instinctive attitude. An M-16 is not interesting. But watching the man holding it always is. Because he alone can pull the trigger. If the man wielding it has the bulging eyes and 800 yard stare, then watch out. He is dangerous. The M-16 incidental.

Maybe its no coincidence that the El Al airline looks at the passenger more than his luggage. The TSA looks for things. The El Al guys look for people. To the best of my knowledge the TSA has yet to foil a single terror attack.

But by contrast anyone who argues that we look at the man we will be accused of profiling. But how can you survive in a world with guns, bombs, cars with more kinetic energy than a 40mm bofors unless you discriminate? We either disempower man by taking everything away from him or we let him have what he needs subject to responsibility.

Today we know all about the guns used at Sandy Hook. Their caliber, their finish, their magazine capacities. But nobody knows diddly squat about Adam Lanza even till now. It’s all confidential. We mustn’t judge.

But somehow we have to get the focus back on the man, not the gun. In other things as well. Otherwise we won’t survive. As a matter of common sense most everyone in a tactical situaton knows you must watch the threat. You must judge. Judge or die. Yet we seem unable as a society to act upon the knowledge.


http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2012/12/16/joe-and-the-volcano/#more-26351

[Soonerjeepman]

Tito...excellent read...posting to my facebook.

[FirstandGoal]

Very nice Tito. Sadly our society is still more frightened of being accused of being politically incorrect than it is of protecting ourselves from possible threats.