"There will be blood"...Michigan Passes Right to Work...

[Turd_Ferguson]

Holy hell...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/11/teachers-call-out-as-protests-rev-up-against-michigan-union-bill/

[OULenexaman]

this could get interesting...

[Petro-Sooner]

There will be blood was a good movie.

I drink your milkshake.

[Soonerjeepman]

isn't it amazing...all those union folks had the time to go to a rally but not work? As far as teachers...don't belong here, too political.

[okie52]

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af24/okie54/Right_to_worksvg.png

Right to work states in turquoise...and now add Michigan.

[KantoSooner]

There was some comment that only four states had gone RTW since the 1960s. Can that be true? I remember it was a big subject of shouting in the early 1980s and thought that was more the era. Anyone with insight?

I am absolutely thrilled, of course. Anything to destroy unions will be good for the country.

[FaninAma]

It has not been a good year for unions.

[C&CDean]

Unions, your comeuppance is at hand. Deal wif it.

[olevetonahill]

It must be a Good thing Obammy is against it :highly_amused:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-blasts-michigan-legislation-politics-210039036--election.html

[Turd_Ferguson]

It must be a Good thing Obammy is against it :highly_amused:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-blasts-michigan-legislation-politics-210039036--election.html

At least he's smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds him...I'll give him that.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It must be a Good thing Obammy is against it :highly_amused:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-blasts-michigan-legislation-politics-210039036--election.htmlUnions and lawyers, the democrats' staunchest allies.

[yermom]

where do you come up with this stuff?

[Turd_Ferguson]

where do you come up with this stuff?

Shirley you cant be serious...

[Turd_Ferguson]

Listen to Jimmy Jr. cry, whine and lie about why he needs Union Due's...

2trIypROnSw

[yermom]

Shirley you cant be serious...

it's unfortunate that there aren't any lawyers out there defending the poor corporate types from the evil liberal lawyers

[Turd_Ferguson]

it's unfortunate that there aren't any lawyers out there defending the poor corporate types from the evil liberal lawyers

Touché...

[soonercruiser]

UNION THUGS ASSAULT REPORTER AND ENDANGER ELDERLY AND WOMEN!

So, the union thugs enmasse attacked a tent belonging to the Americans for Prosperity!
They tore down the tent with older people and women inside! "Assault and destruction of personal property" by the unions!
Someone must go to jail! Or, is this like the New Black Panthers in Philly.....Obama supporters...?

http://wcrz.com/journalist-attacked-after-michigan-passes-right-to-work-law-video/

When confronted, a couple of union thugs pummelled a reporter who tried to stop them and asked why they opposed "Right to Work"!
Time to free the workers from Coercion of union dues for jobs!

Let the liberals cry out..."Freedom of Choice for Workers"!!!!
(NOT!) :chargrined:

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

where do you come up with this stuff?most unions don't support democrats? most lawyers don't support democrats? both of them don't? only one group does? If you're talking to me, what's your position on the question?

[sappstuf]

Jay Carney on the "There will be blood" quote:


I haven’t seen those comments and I’m not sure that they mean what some would interpret them to mean. I just haven’t seen them.

So, 'there will be blood' doesn't mean there will be blood... Not surprising from the party that doesn't know the meaning of "is".

Meanwhile...

u_F3oev06i0

[yermom]

most unions don't support democrats? most lawyers don't support democrats? both of them don't? only one group does? If you're talking to me, what's your position on the question?

what is it like to have everyone out to get you?

[cleller]

Eh, just more from the party that supports and defends violence over democracy.

[badger]

Does anyone know how Michigan got Republican majorities in its state legislature? I remember the "one tough nerd" campaign, so I know how they got a Republican governor, but everything else?

[okie52]

Does anyone know how Michigan got Republican majorities in its state legislature? I remember the "one tough nerd" campaign, so I know how they got a Republican governor, but everything else?

Amazing, isn't it, or a party that is supposed to be dead? They also have all of Wisky's legislature and governor, too. Dam union haters!!!!

[KantoSooner]

Are unions outlawed in any RTW state? No.

What is outlawed is the union demanding that anyone working for a given company pay dues whether they are members or not.

So, in essence, unions have lost their right to erect their own toll booth on someone else's property and hold people who do not wish to associate with them hostage.

If unions are really that great, workers will freely associate with them and gladly pay dues.

Anything else is simply legalized extortion. With sketchy folk music as background.

[okie52]

In fairness to the unions they are the ones that collectively bargain for better pay and better work conditions. The non union workers, for the most part, will ride the union's coat tails for the better pay, etc...

I don't know in OK if they charge non union members for collective bargaining. Not a charge for union dues, but a separate charge just for collective bargaining.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

It's getting bad for unions when the home of the UAW passes right to work. I would have thought the unions could buy enough politicians there to keep their monopoly on the labor market in tact.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Oh, and if the Michigan legislators can overcome the coercive tactics of the union mafia, then Oklahoma legislators can flip the bird to the liquor lobby. Rise up Okies and demand good beer, sold cold at the grocery store!

FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOMMMM! (from crappy beer)

[KantoSooner]

In fairness to the unions they are the ones that collectively bargain for better pay and better work conditions. The non union workers, for the most part, will ride the union's coat tails for the better pay, etc...

I don't know in OK if they charge non union members for collective bargaining. Not a charge for union dues, but a separate charge just for collective bargaining.

And nothing in RTW stops them from doing so (bargaining). What it does stop is the union collecting their fees no matter if the worker feels they are doing a good job or a bad job. Again: If the union is all that great, then workers will join voluntarily. If it's not, then why do we, as a society, through our laws, put clubs and guns in the union organizers' hands to coerce payment from unwilling workers?

[okie52]

And nothing in RTW stops them from doing so (bargaining). What it does stop is the union collecting their fees no matter if the worker feels they are doing a good job or a bad job. Again: If the union is all that great, then workers will join voluntarily. If it's not, then why do we, as a society, through our laws, put clubs and guns in the union organizers' hands to coerce payment from unwilling workers?

I certainly don't support closed shops but I recognize there will be those that take advantage of the system.

[OU68]

Oh, and if the Michigan legislators can overcome the coercive tactics of the union mafia, then Oklahoma legislators can flip the bird to the liquor lobby. Rise up Okies and demand good beer, sold cold at the grocery store!

FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOMMMM! (from crappy beer)

^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!!

[KantoSooner]

Yes, just as there will be some employers who are exploitative a-holes. And some people will insist on drinking and driving. Some won't take care of their yards and hurt everyone else's property values. Some percentage of the human race will just be a-holes. It's who they are. Employers don't get to use the state's police power to compel perfect behaviour in the workplace. I don't get to use police power to compel my neighbor to cut down the dead tree in his front yard. Why should the unions get to use police power to compel anyone to give them money?

Alternatively, let me become a union. I'll then order the payroll department at, say, OneOK to begin deducting $100 a month from every employee's pay and send it to Kantosooner/Arvest Bank. Trust me. I'll do battle for YOU everyday with those bastidge bosses. If you don't believe me, just call me. I'm at Cayman Islands 123-4567. Ask for my secretary, Longleggela.

[badger]

Amazing, isn't it, or a party that is supposed to be dead? They also have all of Wisky's legislature and governor, too. Dam union haters!!!!

It may be a case of the special interests being pound wise and penny foolish -- they go for the big boy offices at the federal level, while ignoring the state level offices. Thus, union stronghold manufacturing states like Wisconsin can have state legislatures entirely controlled by Republicans, while these states will vote for the Democrat for president, have Democrats in their Congressional delegations, etc.

On one hand, as the old proverb goes, it is better to be pound wise than pound foolish. However, state legislation can come back to bite you in the arse if you ignore the importance of state legislatures. They are the ones that draw the Congressional district lines. They are the ones that create "right to work" laws, abolish collective bargaining rights among public workers (not including police/fire). They determine state appropriations to K-12 schools and public universities.

Sooo... be pound wise AND penny wise. State governments matter after all.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Are unions outlawed in any RTW state? No.

What is outlawed is the union demanding that anyone working for a given company pay dues whether they are members or not.

So, in essence, unions have lost their right to erect their own toll booth on someone else's property and hold people who do not wish to associate with them hostage.

If unions are really that great, workers will freely associate with them and gladly pay dues.

Anything else is simply legalized extortion. With sketchy folk music as background.

^

[FaninAma]

The real reason unions are disappearing is because union leaders are morons and partisan hacks who are looking out for themselves rather than their members. Why else would they support Clinton when he pushed through NAFTA and GATT. Those agreements cratered US manufacturing which resulted in the loss of hundreds of thousands of union jobs to other countries.
http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp147/

[KantoSooner]

Yay NAFTA, Yay GATT.
We can now buy everyday products at reasonable prices rather than schlock at 3~5X global prices.
dunno 'bout you, but I like being able to afford bath towels and sneakers.

and I didn't particularly enjoy paying more to some association of gloating businesses who refused to modernize and their half-bright employees who were enjoying squeezing my nuts because they had the writing of import tariffs in their pockets.

Oh, and I further enjoy being able to export US goods to countries that previously taxed them so heavily that only the local rich could afford them.

Yay NAFTA, Yay GATT!

Also Yay international direct dial phonecalls, fax machines, email, the internet, INCOTERMS, containerized cargo shipping, SWIFT wire transfers and all the other things that have made our global economy something that everyone can take part in and not just the plaything of major corps.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

what is it like to have everyone out to get you?How TF would I know? Nice crazy card though. Now, if you want to answer my questions, that would be nice.

[nutinbutdust]

I thought it was sad that the schools were closed so the union teachers could protest. The public education system in Michigan seems broke.

Detroit public-school eighth graders do even worse in math than they do in reading, according to the Department of Education. While only 7 percent scored highly enough on the department’s National Assessment of Educational Progress test in 2011 to be rated “proficient” or better in reading, only 4 percent scored highly enough to be rated “proficient” or better in math. Statewide in Michigan, only 32 percent of public-school eighth graders scored grade-level proficient or better in reading, and only 31 percent scored grade-level proficient or better in math. 68 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders are not proficient in reading and 69 percent are not proficient in math.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I certainly don't support closed shops but I recognize there will be those that take advantage of the system.Collective bargaining, combined with laws making it mandatory to be a union member(closed shop) equals coercion rather than bargaining. This drives up the cost of labor artificially(no requirement for an employee to perform to a level that warrants increased pay), and makes it hard on the consumer, as well as the business. In turn, businesses move out of state, or raise their prices and suffer, or go out of country, or close down altogether. IOW, states that don't have right to work laws are EFFING NUTS!

[pphilfran]

I am already getting beat up on this subject on another board so I will withhold my thoughts on the subject.... :)

[okie52]

Collective bargaining, combined with laws making it mandatory to be a union member equals coercion rather than bargaining. This drives up the cost of labor artificially(no requirement for an employee to perform to a level that warrants increased pay), and makes it hard on the consumer, as well as the business. In turn, businesses move out of state, or raise their prices and suffer, or go out of country, or close down altogether. IOW, states that don't have right to work laws are EFFING NUTS!

I support the right to collectively bargain but I don't support forced union membership. I also support the company owners right to hire scabs...something many dems were wanting to prohibit.

Individually workers often don't have much power to negotiate with companies. They have more now than in the past because of some legal avenues that have opened up but, on the whole, they don't have much say.

[okie52]

I am already getting beat up on this subject on another board so I will withhold my thoughts on the subject.... :)

Come on...kick some ***.

[pphilfran]

Come on...kick some ***.

lol...I have been on the receiving end...

Ok...

It is far overblown and won't do chit in regards to blue collar workers in existing manufacturing facilities...white collar I don't know

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I support the right to collectively bargain but I don't support forced union membership. I also support the company owners right to hire scabs...something many dems were wanting to prohibit.

Individually workers often don't have much power to negotiate with companies. They have more now than in the past because of some legal avenues that have opened up but, on the whole, they don't have much say.As long as the owner can hire who he wants, and union membership isn't required, and union dues aren't forced on non-union members, then basic freedoms are protected.

[sappstuf]

I had forgotten about this story. Unions in Michigan were beyond fu&*(ed up.


If you're a parent who accepts Medicaid payments from the State of Michigan to help support your mentally-disabled adult children, you qualify as a state employee for the purposes of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). They can now claim and receive a portion of your Medicaid in the form of union dues.

Robert and Patricia Haynes live in Michigan with their two adult children, who have cerebral palsy. The state government provides the family with insurance through Medicaid, but also treats them as caregivers. For the SEIU, this makes them public employees and thus members of the union, which receives $30 out of the family's monthly Medicaid subsidy. The Michigan Quality Community Care Council (MQC3) deducts union dues on behalf of SEIU.

Couldn't have happened to a better group...

[LiveLaughLove]

This will not end well. Union thugs are notorious for shooting at people in the past for much less than this.

[yermom]

I had forgotten about this story. Unions in Michigan were beyond fu&*(ed up.



Couldn't have happened to a better group...

ok, that's ridiculous

and for the record, i don't have a problem with Unions, but being forced to join one to take a job always rubbed me the wrong way

and the fact that this passed in Michigan of all places, seems really odd

[yermom]

most unions don't support democrats? most lawyers don't support democrats? both of them don't? only one group does? If you're talking to me, what's your position on the question?

it's the lawyer bit, as referenced above. you think they are all working with the ACLU or what?

your sky is falling, liberal/democrat fear throws back to McCarthyism or something.

you disagree with me? communist. trying to ruin country. act now before it's too late!

[KantoSooner]

First real job I had right out of high school I had union dues taken out of my salary. Never once saw or was contacted by anyone from the union. Never even heard anything about them in the paper. So far as I was concerned, they were some office in another state to whom I was forced to send money....because.
No union has ever been anything more than a mafia scam. If I'm going to have to pay out the money, at least I want a relationship with someone who I might be able to call upon if I need someone disappeared later in life. (I've got several people on my list who need a little visit from Paulie and Chrissie).

[FaninAma]

Kanto, I am not critical of your stance necessarily but I believe in a more balanced approach taking into consideration the differences in worker protection laws, environmental regulation and benefits to the country of keeping a viable manufacturing base.

The goal of prioritizing cheap stuff has been a disaster for this country...especially the upper midwest and smaller communities. I live in a town of 20,000 and the city council is proud of the fact the downtown area doesn't consist of empty, decaying buildings. Forget the fact most
of them are occupied by beauty schools, arts and crafts stores, same day loan companies, a Dollar General and a couple of local restaurants.

[Midtowner]

^I'm sure the reason companies were willing to spend millions of dollars in political contributions to garner RTW legislation was due to their concern about employees being charged for "nothing." I'm sure that's the case.

[yermom]

Kanto, I am not critical of your stance necessarily but I believe in a more balanced approach taking into consideration the differences in worker protection laws, environmental regulation and benefits to the country of keeping a viable manufacturing base.

The goal of prioritizing cheap stuff has been a disaster for this country...especially the upper midwest and smaller communities. I live in a town of 20,000 and the city council is proud of the fact the downtown area doesn't consist of empty, decaying buildings. Forget the fact most
of them are occupied by beauty schools, arts and crafts stores, same day loan companies, a Dollar General and a couple of local restaurants.

that's my problem with a lot of the rhetoric on the board. things need balance. saying that you agree with some point doesn't mean that you think that everything related needs to be at the most extreme end of the spectrum. there needs to be a balance of power between labor and management. bad **** happens when one side gets too much power.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

it's the lawyer bit, as referenced above. you think they are all working with the ACLU or what?

your sky is falling, liberal/democrat fear throws back to McCarthyism or something.

you disagree with me? communist. trying to ruin country. act now before it's too late!I guess you contend that democrat politicians behave with economic rationality and are lawful, and not screwing up the country? Of course you do. You have demonstrated that repeatedly on this message board. you also contend that most lawyers don't back the democrats?

Your repeated use of the crazy card is expected, since your economics and politics are so foul.

[badger]

I wonder if this was a panic move by elected officials, more than a political move.

Some businesses: We were perhaps, maybe, unlikely but still under minimal consideration... thinking about what our business would look like Indiana under their new "right to work" law...

Michigan legislature: STOP!!!! NO MORE LEAVING OUR STATE!!!!

Some businesses: It would be costly to move, and we've been in Michigan forever, so we likely won't leave, but we still did briefly and haphazardly mention Indiana...

Michigan legislature: RIGHT TO WORK!!!!!!

Democrats: Wait... what just happened?

Some businesses: No idea.

Michigan legislature: right to work.

Democrats: OH HOLY SH!T NO YOU DID NOT!

Michigan legislature: oh dear lord the unions.

Unions: RIOT! RIOT! RIOT!

Michigan legislature: Nobody riots like Michigan rioters. Run!

[yermom]

I guess you contend that democrat politicians behave with economic rationality and are lawful, and not screwing up the country? Of course you do. You have demonstrated that repeatedly on this message board. you also contend that most lawyers don't back the democrats?

Your repeated use of the crazy card is expected, since your economics and politics are so foul.


i contend that politicians are self-serving, and virtually none are to be trusted. what is your lawyer comment based on? i'm missing something.

[FaninAma]

Best/Worst states for business:

Bottom 18 positions held by non-right to work states.

http://chiefexecutive.net/best-worst-states-for-business-2012

Top 2 are help by right to work states with no state income tax. Hmmmmmmm.

[Soonerjeepman]

I wonder if this was a panic move by elected officials, more than a political move.

Some businesses: We were perhaps, maybe, unlikely but still under minimal consideration... thinking about what our business would look like Indiana under their new "right to work" law...

Michigan legislature: STOP!!!! NO MORE LEAVING OUR STATE!!!!

Some businesses: It would be costly to move, and we've been in Michigan forever, so we likely won't leave, but we still did briefly and haphazardly mention Indiana...

Michigan legislature: RIGHT TO WORK!!!!!!

Democrats: Wait... what just happened?

Some businesses: No idea.

Michigan legislature: right to work.

Democrats: OH HOLY SH!T NO YOU DID NOT!

Michigan legislature: oh dear lord the unions.

Unions: RIOT! RIOT! RIOT!

Michigan legislature: Nobody riots like Michigan rioters. Run!


lol that's pretty good badge..

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

i contend that politicians are self-serving, and virtually none are to be trusted. what is your lawyer comment based on? i'm missing something.

Here's a good link: http://www.campaignmoney.com/trial_lawyer.asp

and this is interesting, too:

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000065

If you care to look around, you will find that the legal profession is predominantly big government oriented. Sure, there are exceptions, and certainly the country, as well as all the way down to individuals, need good lawyers who are constitutionally oriented, and seek to do respectful work. But, the legal profession too often sides with those who advocate out of control government control of the country. Honestly, I'm surprised that you didn't know that, or are somehow denying it.

[yermom]

Here's a good link: http://www.campaignmoney.com/trial_lawyer.asp

and this is interesting, too:

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000065

If you care to look around, you will find that the legal profession is predominantly big government oriented. Sure, there are exceptions, and certainly the country, as well as all the way down to individuals, need good lawyers who are constitutionally oriented, and seek to do respectful work. But, the legal profession too often sides with those who advocate out of control government control of the country. Honestly, I'm surprised that you didn't know that, or are somehow denying it.

i guess the handful of lawyers for the corporate little guys work 'round the clock fighting these guys

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

i guess the handful of lawyers for the corporate little guys work 'round the clock fighting these guysYour point is well taken, and I would never say there aren't many good people in the legal profession. I know there are in the unions too. But the political might, including financial backing, of legal organizations goes to the Left, as do the unions. You know that, correct?

[yermom]

the lawyers for corporations don't have to buy politicians, their bosses do that

[cleller]

Michigan legislature: Nobody riots like Michigan rioters. Run!

Good one.

Can't we let democracy decide? I never saw a bunch of folks rioting because they didn't like the Pres election. What makes these guys different?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Good one.

Can't we let democracy decide? I never saw a bunch of folks rioting because they didn't like the Pres election. What makes these guys different?unions have forever used strong-arm tactics, and pretty much have not been burned too badly for doing that.

[KantoSooner]

Fanin,
I too live in a small-ish community, around 40K in NE OK. Our downtown is refurbing, but consists mostly of churches, bars/restaurants, lawyer offices and banks...and vacant buildings.
It wasn't outsourcing or union knocking that emptied these buildings, however. It was long term shifts in shopping patterns, ownership of multiple cars per family and ownership of refrigerators and freezers at home.
Nothing stays the same in this world, it's always in motion. When our government tries, a la King Canute bellowiing at the tide to recede, to 'hold the line' against global manufacturing pricing or the like, we only succeed in crippling our domestic economy. You can't win with tariff walls; you simply create flacid domestic industry that can't compete when finally forced to.
Better we should offer lifelong training at affordable prices (Oklahoma's three tiered universtity system backed up by the Regional Tech Schools is a pretty awesome example and is cited, at least a little, nationally. Strange: we do extraordinarily well in early child ed, excellently in college ed....and our 1-12 is suckitude on an epic scale) along with portable benefits. And then get out of the way.

My personal experience with unions was offered as just that, a personal anecdote. Take it for it's worth (or not worth).

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I'd like to see Right to Work in California

[soonercruiser]

I thought it was sad that the schools were closed so the union teachers could protest. The public education system in Michigan seems broke.

Detroit public-school eighth graders do even worse in math than they do in reading, according to the Department of Education. While only 7 percent scored highly enough on the department’s National Assessment of Educational Progress test in 2011 to be rated “proficient” or better in reading, only 4 percent scored highly enough to be rated “proficient” or better in math. Statewide in Michigan, only 32 percent of public-school eighth graders scored grade-level proficient or better in reading, and only 31 percent scored grade-level proficient or better in math. 68 percent of Michigan public-school eighth graders are not proficient in reading and 69 percent are not proficient in math.

OH! THE POOR SCROOL TEACHERS!!!????
They are obviously more interested in their own interest, and union power interests than the students!
Samo with union officials any more....it's all about power and money in their own pockets....not primarily about the workers!

[soonercruiser]

BTW - wasn't it Obama that gave a big speech in 2008 about cooling the rhetoric and violence.
Wonder if he could do a rerun for the unions in Michigan?
:02.47-tranquillity:

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

BTW - wasn't it Obama that gave a big speech in 2008 about cooling the rhetoric and violence.
Wonder if he could do a rerun for the unions in Michigan?
:02.47-tranquillity:"a spirit of cooperation is needed: You cooperate with my wishes, and all will end well."- Ubiquitous Democrat

[sappstuf]

Michigan is apparently a 'Right to work someone over' state.

[badger]

I can make endless Meat chicken jokes. They are arrogant bastards in many regards:

1- They rub it in anyone's faces who will listen that they are the only state that can be seen from space... I guess Florida, Hawaii or even Alaska don't count?

2- They have the all-time winningest college football program... because back when college football only had a handful of teams, Michigan was beating the Harvards and Yales!

3- THEIR auto industry, which THEY are the leaders in the world in.... Wait, when did your state's name become "Japan?"

So anyways, eff Michigan and their "great" lakes. They had a huge population, a lot of jobs, a lot of tourism and they managed to eff it all up and send their people and their jobs to the south in droves. If the people left elected Republicans to fix the mess, don't whine to the rest of us.

HAS-BEEN STATE! HAS-BEEN STATE!

[FaninAma]

Kanto, it was the appearance of Walmart. Walmart struggles in bigger metropolitan areas where they have competition other than the local businessmen and women who can't compete with their ability to massively import cheap foreign goods. I'm not blaming the unions for this per se. I do blame their excesses that gave corporations the exucse to ship jobs overseas and I blame individuals who think little of their neighbors who own businesses instead just caring about being able to buy the cheapest stuff.

I do understand the concept of saving money but if not for horrible inflation caused by the Fed's monetary policies the middle and lower economic classes might not be in such a bind on their finances. Wages have risen at a much slower rate than the rate of devaluation of our currency since 1913.

[badger]

I blame individuals who think little of their neighbors who own businesses instead just caring about being able to buy the cheapest stuff.

I love small businesses, but when these neighbors that own them expect their own neighbors to pay huge markups rather than go to Walmart a few blocks away for far cheaper prices, who is being the bad neighbor?

My favorite small businesses here in town don't just offer the same stuff as the wal marts, but offer unique stuff that's worthy paying more for (plus the added feel-goodness that supporting a local shop brings).

And yes, some metro businesses out-walmart the real Walmart. There's some chain stores called HEB in Texas that control the grocery market, at least in San Antonio :)

[KantoSooner]

Fanin,
Walmart was as much result as cause. And, if not Wally World, then someone else. There were lots of players headed in that direction. Remember the hew and cry about 'The A&P' and their 'predatory' destruction of the mom&pop grocery stores? Just an earlier version of the same argument.
We are all free to buy where we please. If you want to buy more expensively at a localized retalier, you're free to do so, mostly. Walmart doesn't do well in large urban environs because the people there don't shop en grosse. They are not used to going on the once a week 'kill-a-moose' shopping trips and tend to have little ****-box kitchens that can't hold any volume.
We don't have lots of lamp-lighters, stokers, rag pickers, farriers, black smiths or a lot of other jobs that were once mainstays of our economy. That's not a cause for despair. And it certainly isn't a reason to try and wall ourselves off from reality.

Badg,
HEB is the largest grocer in Texas. Their high end outlet is Central Market which competes with Whole Foods. HEB is a strong competitor, but also is run with reference to the Butts' family values. For instance, they have an internal program to make sure that you can feed a family of four on $100 a week with a healthy amount of veggies included. And they spend lots of meeting/planning time to make that happen.
They're not as much of a horror show to deal with on the selling side as Walmart, but they're not particularly kind to their vendors.

[yermom]

heh, Butts.

[FaninAma]

Kanto, Kroeger's seems to be the same way. You can jsut tell that Kroeger's employees are happier than Walmart's by the way they treat you when you come in.

I agree that Walmart just took advantage of the system put in place by the politicians who in turn were doing the bidding of the multi-national banks and corporations.

Badger, I understand the sentiment but if you live in a smaller town that attitude will be the death knell for any community vitality in the business community. Like I said, our main street is lined with crafts and antique stores and pay-day loan operators. And except for the groceries the Walmart here sells junk albeit cheap junk.

[KantoSooner]

Outside of Disneyland, you're not going to get 'Mainstreet USA' anywhere anymore. And that's not a bad thing. Mainstreet USA was a product of those times and reflected what the economic technology could deliver then. All those twee little local stores were an earlier generation's Walmarts.
The Luddites, as you will recall, desperately fought against commercial spinning and weaving, saying it would wreck the rural economy and its base of cottage industry. And they were absolutely right! It did. No one today, however, would demand a return to homespun shirts (outside of college communities).
And, Fanin, I did not say that Walmart took advantage of a system put in place by the pols and MNCs. Because that's not true. No one put a system in place. That implies way more central planning than atually took place and more success in said central planning than has ever resulted anywhere on earth. Technology allowed for greater and greater globalization and economy of scale; but it did so without any intent. Alexander Graham Bell did not 'intend' to facilitate trade with SE Asia when he invented the telephone.

Most of our small communities exist because there were good and sufficient reasons for there to be a 'county seat' or a town at this place or that. When those reasons disappear, so do the communities.

We as a society should concentrate on providing support to our citizens as they, in their wisdom as a group, figure out how to adapt to ever changing times. We do NOT need to try and save small scale local retale business.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I love small businesses, but when these neighbors that own them expect their own neighbors to pay huge markups rather than go to Walmart a few blocks away for far cheaper prices, who is being the bad neighbor?

My favorite small businesses here in town don't just offer the same stuff as the wal marts, but offer unique stuff that's worthy paying more for (plus the added feel-goodness that supporting a local shop brings).

And yes, some metro businesses out-walmart the real Walmart. There's some chain stores called HEB in Texas that control the grocery market, at least in San Antonio :)good post! Yes, I almost laughed/hurled when I read the opinion that WALMART is the problem in the Meatchicken state.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Outside of Disneyland, you're not going to get 'Mainstreet USA' anywhere anymore. And that's not a bad thing. Mainstreet USA was a product of those times and reflected what the economic technology could deliver then. All those twee little local stores were an earlier generation's Walmarts.
The Luddites, as you will recall, desperately fought against commercial spinning and weaving, saying it would wreck the rural economy and its base of cottage industry. And they were absolutely right! It did. No one today, however, would demand a return to homespun shirts (outside of college communities).
And, Fanin, I did not say that Walmart took advantage of a system put in place by the pols and MNCs. Because that's not true. No one put a system in place. That implies way more central planning than atually took place and more success in said central planning than has ever resulted anywhere on earth. Technology allowed for greater and greater globalization and economy of scale; but it did so without any intent. Alexander Graham Bell did not 'intend' to facilitate trade with SE Asia when he invented the telephone.

Most of our small communities exist because there were good and sufficient reasons for there to be a 'county seat' or a town at this place or that. When those reasons disappear, so do the communities.

We as a society should concentrate on providing support to our citizens as they, in their wisdom as a group, figure out how to adapt to ever changing times. We do NOT need to try and save small scale local retale business.Absolutely!

[badger]

I have done a lot of reading on right to work and here's a few things that seem to hold true:

1- It doesn't necessarily bring in jobs, but it's a selling point. Otherwise, Oklahoma might be seeing more. However, when foreign car companies look to build plants, they seem to be building them in the south. When Boeing wanted a second jet plant, it chose South Carolina, rather than another in Washington state (much to the chagrin of the union and the labor relations board). It's like whorn being located in the state of Texas when trying to get football recruits to go there. A recruit probably chose to be a whorn because boosters were shaking his non-signing hand with $100 bills as he signed his LOI, and he knew that he'd be spoiled for his entire college career with all of the money flowing through the program... but yeah, staying in my home state was cool too, I guess.

2- Unions can survive and thrive in right-to-work states. Casino workers are heavily unionized in Nevada, a right-to-work state. Auto workers in Tenneseee and Oklahoma still join unions. Hell, even here in Tulsa a lot of AA manufacturers are joining unions. Why? Because when you get high enough wages to support your union, why not toss them a bone when they get you those higher wages?

3- Unions that don't perform are the ones that usually get their money train cut off. This is why it'll be difficult to unionize Walmart, fast food, and other low-paying jobs without being forced to. It's hard to give up money to union representation when you don't have any money to give.

4- The unions brought this Michigan situation on themselves. Everyone from the governor to the legislature begged them not to have No. 2 on the November ballot, which was for voters to approve the right to collective bargain. It was basically a the opposite of what Wisconsin did and was seen as some as a pre-emptive strike against what unions feared is now happening. But, when right-to-collective-bargain was voted down 57 percent to 43 percent, the Republican legislature majority got the confidence they needed to get this legislation through the lame duck session, and also gave Gov. Snyder the gumption to not veto it or talk it down.

It's kind of like Mizzou talking up its candidacy for the Big Ten. By making the Big 12 sound insecure, it encouraged Nebraska and Colorado to leave. Then Texas A&M left too. Fortunately for Mizzou, it had a new landing spot itself after it started this mess.

So, like Mizzou, perhaps there's light at the end of the tunnel for the unions in this mess that it started.

[FaninAma]

Kanto, I couldn't disagree more. The federal government has abandoned one of its constitutionally delegated duties to protect commerce inside this country from unfair trade practices of other countries. http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/international_trade

We deserve to have no manufacturing base. We deserve to have a widening income gap with the bulk of wealth going to those who prosper under globalization(multinational corporations and banks) we deserve to be turned into a consumer and service sector dominated economy driven by debt and credit. We deserve to be slaves to the Walmarts of the world via taxpayers subsidizing their profits: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/walmart-obamacare-medicaid_n_2280118.html

Yes, progress marches on and we are so much better off for it.I am of the opinion that those who support Walmart blindly without any thoughts of the consequences are dooming their kids to lives of less opportunity and increasing their chances that they will be forced to work for heartless bastards like Walmart.

[soonercruiser]

Michigan is apparently a 'Right to work someone over' state.

:beaten:

:)

[soonercruiser]

I have done a lot of reading on right to work and here's a few things that seem to hold true:

1- It doesn't necessarily bring in jobs, but it's a selling point. Otherwise, Oklahoma might be seeing more. However, when foreign car companies look to build plants, they seem to be building them in the south. When Boeing wanted a second jet plant, it chose South Carolina, rather than another in Washington state (much to the chagrin of the union and the labor relations board). It's like whorn being located in the state of Texas when trying to get football recruits to go there. A recruit probably chose to be a whorn because boosters were shaking his non-signing hand with $100 bills as he signed his LOI, and he knew that he'd be spoiled for his entire college career with all of the money flowing through the program... but yeah, staying in my home state was cool too, I guess.

2- Unions can survive and thrive in right-to-work states. Casino workers are heavily unionized in Nevada, a right-to-work state. Auto workers in Tenneseee and Oklahoma still join unions. Hell, even here in Tulsa a lot of AA manufacturers are joining unions. Why? Because when you get high enough wages to support your union, why not toss them a bone when they get you those higher wages?

3- Unions that don't perform are the ones that usually get their money train cut off. This is why it'll be difficult to unionize Walmart, fast food, and other low-paying jobs without being forced to. It's hard to give up money to union representation when you don't have any money to give.

4- The unions brought this Michigan situation on themselves. Everyone from the governor to the legislature begged them not to have No. 2 on the November ballot, which was for voters to approve the right to collective bargain. It was basically a the opposite of what Wisconsin did and was seen as some as a pre-emptive strike against what unions feared is now happening. But, when right-to-collective-bargain was voted down 57 percent to 43 percent, the Republican legislature majority got the confidence they needed to get this legislation through the lame duck session, and also gave Gov. Snyder the gumption to not veto it or talk it down.

It's kind of like Mizzou talking up its candidacy for the Big Ten. By making the Big 12 sound insecure, it encouraged Nebraska and Colorado to leave. Then Texas A&M left too. Fortunately for Mizzou, it had a new landing spot itself after it started this mess.

So, like Mizzou, perhaps there's light at the end of the tunnel for the unions in this mess that it started.

Badger,
I heard some actual, factual statistics on the radio yesterday.
The new jobs numbers for last year:
-Right to work states...12% up
-Non-right to work.....only 3% up

[soonercruiser]

Some statistics for 1995-2005...
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/contributors.asp?id=1189

1. Percentage Growth in Non-Farm Private Sector Employees (1995-2005)
a. Right to Work States: 12.9%
b. Non-right to Work States: 6.0%

2. Average Poverty Rate-Adjusted for Cost of Living (2002-2004)
a. Right to Work States: 8.5%
b. Non-right to Work States: 10.1%

3. Percentage Growth in Patents Annually Granted (1995-2005)
a. Right to Work States: 33.0%
b. Non-right to Work States: 11.0%

4. Percentage Growth in Real Personal Income (1995-2005)
a. Right to Work States: 26.0%
b. Non-right to Work States: 19.0%

5. Percentage Growth in Number of People Covered by Employment Based Private Health Insurance (1995-2005):
a. Right to Work States: 8.5%
b. Non-right to Work States: 0.7%

[soonercruiser]

http://www.policymic.com/mobile/articles/20708/right-to-work-statistics-how-your-pocketbook-and-community-are-affected-by-right-to-work-laws

According to the National Institute for Labor Relations Research, the average worker in a right to work state has seen their wages increase 11.3% from 2000-2010. In non-right to work states, wages rose just 0.7%. Furthermore, compensation was $1,155 greater in right to work states. If you live in a right to work state, you’ve likely already seen the effects of such laws on your pocketbooks as you’ve outgained the average American worker in both yearly salary and average raises.

As far as the community is concerned, there is a strong correlation between right to work states and the unemployment rate. In states without right to work laws, employment decreased by 5.5% from 2000-2010; understandable, since during this time we went through a recession. But in right to work states employment increased by 0.3%. Although this is only a slight increase in the employment rate, this means that if you live in a right to work state, your family and friends have had greater opportunity to find employment whereas in non-right to work states, people likely saw some of their loved ones kicked out of the work force.

[soonercruiser]

Politifact.com....even centrist to left....

Bill O'Reilly says unemployment is lower in 'right-to-work' states
On the Feb. 24, 2011, edition of Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor, host Bill O’Reilly said that the jobs picture is better in "right to work" states -- that is, states in which workers can refuse to pay dues or fees to the union that represents them in bargaining.

To test O’Reilly’s claim, we turned to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, which is the official source for unemployment statistics in the United States. BLS’ most recent state-by state data is for December 2010.

We consulted with Gary Burtless, a labor economist with the centrist-to-liberal Brookings Institution, about the fairest way to look at the data. We agreed that it was best to compare right-to-work and non-right-to-work states through data weighted according to state population. That way, California’s unemployment rate would be given more weight than, say, Wyoming’s.

When we did the math, we found that the unemployment rate in the 22 right-to-work states was 9.17 percent, compared to 9.65 in the 28 non-right-to-work states. (The national unemployment rate that month was 9.4 percent that month -- right in the middle.) So O’Reilly is basically correct.

[nutinbutdust]

A unionized employee, a tea party member and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea party member and says, 'Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.'

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

A unionized employee, a tea party member and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea party member and says, 'Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.'The CEO says to the union employee: I make 11 times more money than you, but your collectively negotiated wages are jacket up so high, X 10,000 people working for us in the union, that we are going to move operations to Mexico unless you agree to lower your take. (remember, I represent 11 of your union folks in salary). It's your call, union leader guy.

[diverdog]

The CEO says to the union employee: I make 11 times more money than you, but your collectively negotiated wages are jacket up so high, X 10,000 people working for us in the union, that we are going to move operations to Mexico unless you agree to lower your take. (remember, I represent 11 of your union folks in salary). It's your call, union leader guy.


Try a minimum of 300 times the average worker,

[sappstuf]

Try a minimum of 300 times the average worker,

So how much more should an executive get paid than the average worker if he is leading a profitable company of 1500 employees?

Please be specific so we know how much "fair" is.

[olevetonahill]

A unionized employee, a tea party member and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea party member and says, 'Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.'

Sounds all nice and shat, But tell me Who's Plate of cookies is it in the 1st place?

Thats whats wrong with everyones thinkin. It aint the workers cookies , They agreed to hire on to help earn the cookies for the Boss the Boss agreed to payem a certain amount .

[Turd_Ferguson]

I think we need a little more cow bell...

[Midtowner]

A unionized employee, a tea party member, a stockholder from the CEO's company and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea party member and says, 'Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.'

FIFY.

[badger]

As much as those numbers sound pro-right to work, I have to question whether wages and employment were already high in those states and thus, moving upwards wouldn't make as much difference.

Cost of living tends to be higher in blue states, wages tend to be higher there as a result. So, of course wages aren't going to go up as much if they're already high.

[KantoSooner]

Fanin,
First, our government has an overall duty to do the best they can for the country as a whole. They have no duty to protect either the owners or workers of a particular company or in particular industries. Thus, if North Carolina mills fail to keep pace with global competition and/or their workers fail to pay attention at school and do the minimum necessary to hold their jobs, it is not the responsibility of the government or their fellow citizens to bail them out of problems of their own making.
Second, our government, from time to time, may decide to overlook a given country's misbehavior on trade issues if they believe it serves the greater good. Take Japan, for instance. Following WWII, we needed and wanted a Japan that was a) passive and b) firmly anti-Soviet and within our sphere. As they were bombed flat and starving (Literally) post war, our statesmen decided that the best way to ensure Japanese acquiescence in this program was to soft pedal complaints over patent infringement, currency manipulation, etc. And bulk up their economy, even at the expense of our own. It worked. Among other things, we didn't have a war with the USSR because a whole slew of these type of calculations made 'us' too strong for the Sov's to take on.
That's at a macro level.
At a micro level, what we are seeiing in, for want of a better term, the 'WalMart-ization' of our economy is not necessarily bad. Do we want to make coat hangers? Really? Would we not be better served as a society by forcing ourselves to concentrate on areas of higher value add? We lead the world in services. Our lawyers are global. White and Case (I think, forgive me if the name is off) has 200 lawyers in .... Hong Kong. Our banks kick butt around the world... and are profitable, unlike their giant zombie Japanese cousins (who never learned to compete without government support). Even our highly protected farm sector produces food so competitively that you can buy California lettuce in Saigon wet markets cheaper than the local product (think THAT doesn't **** off the local comissars?)(FYI, I think that last is false competition as WE are subsidizing those growers with cheap water, power, etc., but still).
And what if there is so-called 'dumping'? I use the '...' because I don't think 'dumping' exists. If a man wants to sell me something below his cost, I say, "Thank you, dumbass" and take it. In this day and age, you can, with enough credit, build a factory to produce anything, anywhere in 12 months or less. There is no way we are losing any strategic points here. Think about it: a computer chip plant was built in the rain forest in Borneo in 1995. No infrastructure. No local market. No local raw materials or labor force. It was a local government vanity. But it was built and operates to this day, makuing a modest profit.

My point was not that we should all rejoice and turn over our bank accounts to WalMart as much as it was that today's 'WalMart' is inevitable if we are to have a healthy, free economy. You have to let the market run. WalMart's day, too, will pass. If I knew what would come next and could execute on that knowledge, I'd be endowing art museums next year. And that, to even the playing field to some extent, we should concentrate our more paternalistic instincts in the direction of making workers more independent. Make health care independent from one's employer. Make pensions independent from one's employer. Make lifetime training/education affordable and accessable. And the cool point: all of these things not only support the individual, but provide the 'WalMarts' of this country with a better, more valuable labor force.
We should be pushing, hard, for ever more and freer global trade, not restrictions.

[pphilfran]

Kanto, I might not always agree with your thoughts (rare) but I always enjoy the read...

[badger]

Question for the board: Will states that do not have "right to work" attempt to do what UAW did in Michigan, which was present a state question on the right to collective bargain?

There are many states still with Democrat majorities in the state legislatures, meaning that there's no fear of a "right to work" bill going through immediately after a failed "right to collective bargain" state question fails a la Michigan.

[KABOOKIE]

A unionized employee, a tea party member and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea party member and says, 'Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.'

In making those cookies, a unionized employee lifted a bag of chocolate chips, carried them 2 feet and then placed them neatly beside the mixing bowl. He dared not open the bag because chocolate chip bag opening is a highly specialized skill that can only be completed by trained and properly licensed bag openers. The unionized employee then proudly boasted how important his overall contribution was to the company, took a 15 min break and then collected his $25/hr check. Said unionized employee then went to the local watering hole and spent most of his "hard earned" money on booze and cigarettes and proceeded to bitch about the $50/month contribution increase in their health benefits.

[KantoSooner]

Kanto, I might not always agree with your thoughts (rare) but I always enjoy the read...

Thanks. too long winded (mine, always) but I try to capture my reasoning. I'll got back to gonzo hyperbole soon. The weekend approacheth.

[badger]

In making those cookies, a unionized employee lifted a bag of chocolate chips, carried them 2 feet and then placed them neatly beside the mixing bowl. He dared not open the bag because chocolate chip bag opening is a highly specialized skill that can only be completed by trained and properly licensed bag openers. The unionized employee then proudly boasted how important his overall contribution was to the company, took a 15 min break and then collected his $25/hr check. Said unionized employee then went to the local watering hole and spent most of his "hard earned" money on booze and cigarettes and proceeded to bitch about the $50/month contribution increase in their health benefits.

The unionized employee lost his job just before Christmas because neither the union nor the company would budge on contract negotiations, despite the company being bankrupt.

Sorry, the cookies had me thinking of our local Hostess bakery :(

[nutinbutdust]

Did anyone see this? democratic-congressman-delivers-lengthy-apology-for-using-the-word-midget-on-house-floor/ (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/democratic-congressman-delivers-lengthy-apology-for-using-the-word-midget-on-house-floor/)

Do we really pay these people and elect them to represent us?

Democratic Rep. Hank Johnson is really sorry for using the word “midget” yesterday when describing the Michigan labor union situation.

In a somewhat verbose apology speech on the House floor this afternoon, the Georgia-based congressman apologized for rhetorically asking yesterday: “What happens when you put a giant with a midget in a cage fight?” He was using the “m-word” to describe how unfair a fight he felt the Michigan unions faced against the forces in favor of a “right-to-work” state.

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry, but for some reason I found the video funny.

[sappstuf]

http://global.nationalreview.com/images/photoshop_121312_A.jpg

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Democratic Rep. Hank Johnson is really sorry for using the word “midget” yesterday when describing the Michigan labor union situation.

In a somewhat verbose apology speech on the House floor this afternoon, the Georgia-based congressman apologized for rhetorically asking yesterday: “What happens when you put a giant with a midget in a cage fight?” He was using the “m-word” to describe how unfair a fight he felt the Michigan unions faced against the forces in favor of a “right-to-work” state.

The union folks have voluntarily signed on to whatever their condition is. They were not born that way. He should have been censured for inappropriate comparison.

[C&CDean]

The "M word?" Really? Good grief. I wonder if real midgets GAS if somebody calls them a midget; or is it just the same ignorant white apologists again?

[sappstuf]

Did anyone see this? democratic-congressman-delivers-lengthy-apology-for-using-the-word-midget-on-house-floor/ (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/democratic-congressman-delivers-lengthy-apology-for-using-the-word-midget-on-house-floor/)

Do we really pay these people and elect them to represent us?

Democratic Rep. Hank Johnson is really sorry for using the word “midget” yesterday when describing the Michigan labor union situation.

In a somewhat verbose apology speech on the House floor this afternoon, the Georgia-based congressman apologized for rhetorically asking yesterday: “What happens when you put a giant with a midget in a cage fight?” He was using the “m-word” to describe how unfair a fight he felt the Michigan unions faced against the forces in favor of a “right-to-work” state.

I am not sure whether to laugh or cry, but for some reason I found the video funny.

Is this THE Hank Johnson??

zNZczIgVXjg

"We don't anticipate that."

[KantoSooner]

Here's an idea: use whatever word you normally would to describe whatever it is you're describing. In the event a person so described asks you to not use that word, don't use it. If nobody directly described by that word complains, then we're all good.
For example, I don't know of any pre-Columbian indigenous Americans who complain about being called 'Indians'. They might get a little pissy about how you say it and the like, but not about the word itself.
If someone not involved complains, tell them to go do something anatomically impossible with a fence post.
The wimpification of our society is truly distressing.

[nutinbutdust]

Is this THE Hank Johnson??

zNZczIgVXjg

"We don't anticipate that."

yep thats the guy, i guess guam didnt tip over. lol

[Soonerjeepman]

had a post I deleted about the Boilmakers here in KCK..let's say through a buddy, the info I've heard about salaries, abuse of "power", the parties, good 'ol boy network...etc. I think it's not a real good example of "unions".

[pphilfran]

So mental midget is a no go?

[soonercruiser]

Hank IS a mental midget!
I think that the SMALL island of brain cells in his pumpkin have tipped over!
:tan:

Midgets make good clowns, you know!

[BigTip]

Here's an idea: use whatever word you normally would to describe whatever it is you're describing. In the event a person so described asks you to not use that word, don't use it. If nobody directly described by that word complains, then we're all good.
For example, I don't know of any pre-Columbian indigenous Americans who complain about being called 'Indians'. They might get a little pissy about how you say it and the like, but not about the word itself.
If someone not involved complains, tell them to go do something anatomically impossible with a fence post.
The wimpification of our society is truly distressing.

AIM = American Indian Movement.

They call themselves Indian for gawds sake, but somebody had to search for something, to proof how "tolerant" they are. So they invented a p.c. word. Native American. Geez.

[KantoSooner]

That was the point.

We sing Yankee Doodle in much the same vein.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

charles krauthammer is on target in his latest column about right-to-work.

http://www.baxterbulletin.com/article/20121217/OPINION/312170029/Charles-Krauthammer-today-s-global-economy-US-can-t-afford-union-nostalgia



In that Golden Age, the UAW won wages, benefits and protections that were the envy of the world.

Today’s angry protesters demand a return to that norm. Except that it was not a norm but an historical anomaly. America, alone among the great industrial powers, emerged unscathed from World War II. Japan was a cinder, Germany rubble, and the allies — beginning with Britain and France — an exhausted shell of their former imperial selves.

For a generation, America had the run of the world. Then, the others recovered. Soon global competition — from Volkswagen to Samsung — began to overtake American industry that was saddled with protected, inflated, relatively uncompetitive wages, benefits and work rules.

[badger]

charles krauthammer is on target in his latest column about right-to-work.

http://www.baxterbulletin.com/article/20121217/OPINION/312170029/Charles-Krauthammer-today-s-global-economy-US-can-t-afford-union-nostalgia

Yeah, the unions won't be able to bully anymore in a global industry like auto manufacture. However, they will still have success in businesses that cannot be outsourced... Nevada casino workers (and Nevada has been right-to-work since the 50s) is one example.

Businesses have the upper hand in these high unemployment times.

[KantoSooner]

Plus, with modern communications, GATT/Inco rules for trade and containerized shipping, you can build any factory, anywhere and train the workers for said factory as you're building it.

that being the case, the US needs to repeal all corporate taxes and simply tax income. You can't really tax a corp anyway and you're just giving them one more reason to move jobs away.