does obama really care if we go over the cliff...

[Soonerjeepman]

listening to conservative talk radio (yeah you libs will love that..and yes there is lib talk radio as well)..

They made a point that maybe he really doesn't care, he's got his gig, can't or won't be impeached, wants to have the American people blame the Pubs for it all as to secure a sweep of the 2014 elections, doesn't care about his "legacy"

just a thought. Obviously the pro-obama will say that's crazy...tell us WHY?

I (and I think most rep) could go along with SOME tax hike for the top 2%, IF and only IF there were actual CUTS that will go into effect NOW. Seems obama wants to just make the Pubs compromise.

[soonercruiser]

I really believe that, just like when running for re-election, Comrade Obama has a plan for every contingency. Good planning!
Each plan for every contingency - ends with "Blame the Repubicans"!

Otherwise....

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/IfIhadabrain.gif

[KantoSooner]

Going over the cliff would certainly allow whoever to take credit for reinstalling certain tax cuts while ignoring others.
The tricky part would be spinning it so that the other guy was blamed for the mess in the first place.
Oh, and, of course managing the risk that the whole kit and kaboodle didn't go down the drain while you were playing your little game. There is that, of course.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

No, he wants to drive an issue problem through the republicans, divide them and win liberal majorities for some time. He doesn't really care about compromising or stuff. he is Chicago thugging it big time here...

[Midtowner]

No, he wants to drive an issue problem through the republicans, divide them and win liberal majorities for some time. He doesn't really care about compromising or stuff. he is Chicago thugging it big time here...

OR

...maybe Republicans could let the tax rates on the top 2% go up a little?

It's a stupid thing to be digging your heals in on.

[FaninAma]

So who caves....the GOP or the Democrats? I am very interested in the opinion of some of the resident progressives.

[Midtowner]

So who caves....the GOP or the Democrats? I am very interested in the opinion of some of the resident progressives.

The GOP has to cave on the top 2% issue. Maybe the Dems give up a lot of entitlement spending to be good guys, but they really don't have to. If we do go over the cliff and the Democrat House minority offers tax breaks for 98% of Americans are the Republicans really going to be in a position to be against tax breaks for 98% of Americans? That'll look great on election day.

[KantoSooner]

Right or wrong, I think you've got it Mid.

[FaninAma]

The GOP has to cave on the top 2% issue. Maybe the Dems give up a lot of entitlement spending to be good guys, but they really don't have to. If we do go over the cliff and the Democrat House minority offers tax breaks for 98% of Americans are the Republicans really going to be in a position to be against tax breaks for 98% of Americans? That'll look great on election day.

I don't see it.I really think the GOP realizes that they cannot stop the electorates' greed for more government entitlements and that the Democrats will not agree to any meaningful entitlement reform.

Sometimes you just have to stand on principles and let the chips fall where they may.

So it doesn't matter if the GOP tries to slow down the runaway debt train or not. It will eventually arrive at it's obvious destination. Personally if I were the GOP I would prefer that the Democrats hold the Sneate, HoR and the Presidency when this happens.

I m rooting for the cliff.

[pphilfran]

The GOP has to cave on the top 2% issue. Maybe the Dems give up a lot of entitlement spending to be good guys, but they really don't have to. If we do go over the cliff and the Democrat House minority offers tax breaks for 98% of Americans are the Republicans really going to be in a position to be against tax breaks for 98% of Americans? That'll look great on election day.


And the rest of the story...the pubs cave...the tax increases don't do chit to reduce the deficit...so additional taxes are needed from the middle class along with big cuts in entitlements...then the dems are in deep chit on election day since their plan didn't work...

[FaninAma]

And the rest of the story...the pubs cave...the tax increases don't do chit to reduce the deficit...so additional taxes are needed from the middle class along with big cuts in entitlements...then the dems are in deep chit on election day since their plan didn't work...

As long as the GOP controls the HoR the media will manage to blame them for the train wreck.

[pphilfran]

As long as the GOP controls the HoR the media will manage to blame them for the train wreck.

Both parties futures are on the line...

[FaninAma]

Both parties futures are on the line...

Not really. Stupid voters usually don't hold the politicians they vote for accountable. I'll let you decide which party has the support of the most stupid voters but here is a hint....the voters that support this party recently re-elected a congressman that was in a mental institution for most of the past year and is being investigated for misusing millions of dollars of campaign funds.

[pphilfran]

Not really. Stupid voters usually don't hold the politicians they vote for responsible. I'll let you decide which party has the support of the most stupid voters but here is hint....the voters that support thisparty recently re-elected a congressman that was in a mental institution for most of the past year and is being investigated for misuing millions of dollars of campaign funds.

I disagree...more and more people are getting fed up with what is going on in DC...and if things don't get turned around both sides are going to get more then their share of the blame...

Once we find out that the pizz ant tax increases don't do **** to reduce the deficit or debt and that major cuts in entitlements are then going to be required then the **** will hit the fan...

If things are not better in two years you will see a slaughter during the next mid term elections...

[olevetonahill]

If he GAS do you think he'd be fixin to spend 4 million Tax dollars on his and his families upcoming Vacation?

[Midtowner]

Both parties futures are on the line...

The Republicans put themselves in a much worse position by being so dogmatic about their beliefs... Norquist pledges and such. They have very little flexibility here and are now in a horrible position of having to defend 2% of Americans to the apparent detriment of 98%.

[diverdog]

I don't see it.I really think the GOP realizes that they cannot stop the electorates' greed for more government entitlements and that the Democrats will not agree to any meaningful entitlement reform.

Sometimes you just have to stand on principles and let the chips fall where they may.

So it doesn't matter if the GOP tries to slow down the runaway debt train or not. It will eventually arrive at it's obvious destination. Personally if I were the GOP I would prefer that the Democrats hold the Sneate, HoR and the Presidency when this happens.

I m rooting for the cliff.

What principals? The Republicans are every bit as corrupt as the Democrats and it appears they are poorly led. Actually the are dumber than a bag of bricks.

Obama wants to get the middle class cuts done and off the table. This is a no brainer and politically popular. Yet that ****** bag cry baby Boner won't give an inch. Why?

[FaninAma]

What principals? The Republicans are every bit as corrupt as the Democrats and it appears they are poorly led. Actually the are dumber than a bag of bricks.

Obama wants to get the middle class cuts done and off the table. This is a no brainer and politically popular. Yet that ****** bag cry baby Boner won't give an inch. Why?

Diverdog, do you want to discuss this issue or immediately jump to name calling and labeling? I can do either one.

Here's how I feel about the issue and how a lot of other Republicans feel about the issue. I am old enough to remember both the Reagan and George HW Bush tax hikes. I watched as they both capitulated to the Democrats in return for spending cut promises that never materialized. Then I watched as the Newt Gingrich led GOP majority in Congress cut spending balanced the budget and sent the economy into a prolonged growth period only to see Bill Clinton given the credit by the media and liberal historians.

So right now I don't give a f8ck what the left thinks the GOP needs to do or whether or not you think we are "dumber than a bag of bricks". All I care about is that somebody in Washington man up and do something about the real root of the crushing debt being unloaded on my kids. I view the democrats who do not want to cut entitlement spending the same as I would a thief who comes into my house and steals from my kids.....exactly the same

Call us names all you want but if the GOP caves to the liberals on the tax issue without having significant spending cuts in hand then they are done for the forseeable future as a viable option to the liberals.. I and a lot like me are willing to sit out future elections and let the Democrats own this mess lock, stock and barrel. I bet then even you would have second thoughts about your support for the Democratic party.

And who ever said doing the easy thing was the right thing? What if it was popular to just confiscate everything from the "rich"? Would that make it right? Check out and see what the rich in France and England are doing.

The only silver liniing in this mess is watching the look on the progressives's faces as they try to figure out in a few years how we ended up like Greece......clueless

[SoonerorLater]

What principals? The Republicans are every bit as corrupt as the Democrats and it appears they are poorly led. Actually the are dumber than a bag of bricks.

Obama wants to get the middle class cuts done and off the table. This is a no brainer and politically popular. Yet that ****** bag cry baby Boner won't give an inch. Why?

Who is "that ****** bag cry baby Boner"?

[FaninAma]

I disagree...more and more people are getting fed up with what is going on in DC...and if things don't get turned around both sides are going to get more then their share of the blame...

Once we find out that the pizz ant tax increases don't do **** to reduce the deficit or debt and that major cuts in entitlements are then going to be required then the **** will hit the fan...

If things are not better in two years you will see a slaughter during the next mid term elections...

But that will take a principled stand from the GOP otherwise as long as they have any vestiges of power the electorate will never try to learn the real causes of our economic woes and will simply blame the Republicans. Even if the GOP is completely out of power the Democrats would maintain at least 95% of their base. They know this. They know they can do anything they want and not lose very much of their bases.

[diverdog]

Here's how I feel about the issue and how a lot of other Republicans feel about the issue. I am old enough to remember both the Reagan and George HW Bush tax hikes. I watched as they both capitulated to the Democrats in return for spending cut promises that never materialized. Then I watched as the Newt Gingrich led GOP majority in Congress cut spending balanced the budget and sent the economy into a prolonged growth period only to see Bill Clinton given the credit by the media and liberal historians.

Well your memory is certainly skewed. Reagan spent like a drunken sailor. Some of it was absolutely wasteful like the renovation of battleships that were only successful against small nations. And your boy Newt was the king of pork.



So right now I don't give a f8ck what the left thinks the GOP needs to do or whether or not you think we are "dumber than a bag of bricks". All I care about is that somebody in Washington man up and do something about the real root of the crushing debt being unloaded on my kids. I view the democrats who do not want to cut entitlement spending the same as I would a thief who comes into my house and steals from my kids.....exactly the same

Then they need to raise taxes. I am sorry but that is a huge source of the problem. Yes we need to cut spending but lets face some hard truths here. W sent our kids to war and at the same time reduced taxes on the rich and about everyone else. Name anytime when we went to war that we did not suck it up as a country, sacrifice and pay for the war as we went along as best we could? W ask the nation to go shopping and he cut taxes. What he did was sent our kids to die in two wars and then he handed them the bill for fighting the war. You want to know what I really think? I think the current generation needs to man up and take it in the ***......we need to pay for the war, cut current benefits to current retirees including federal retirees and get some of this under control. So what if it hurts the American dream. We created this debt and we need to pay for it now. I do not give a chit if taxes go through the roof on everyone.


Call us names all you want but if the GOP caves to the liberals on the tax issue without having significant spending cuts in hand then they are done for the forseeable future as a viable option to the liberals.. I and a lot like me are willing to sit out future elections and let the Democrats own this mess lock, stock and barrel. I bet then even you would have second thoughts about your support for the Democratic party.


Well given the history of the Republican Party I might appreciate your non-support. :)




And who ever said doing the easy thing was the right thing? What if it was popular to just confiscate everything from the "rich"? Would that make it right? Check out and see what the rich in France and England are doing.


Our rich ....uber rich pay effective tax rates of less than 15%. To sit here and tell me they cannot take a tax hike is pure demagoguery. There is almost no evidence that tax rates affect economic growth. Remind me what the rates were under Ike or even Reagan.



The only silver liniing in this mess is watching the look on the progressives's faces as they try to figure out in a few years how we ended up like Greece......clueless

One more time we are not Greece.

[Sooner5030]

Dear pubs, if you would take a principled stand (values/beliefs) rather than make an effects-based agreement (oh no....the mob may blame us so we must cave) you might actually get my vote next time. Your inability to provide an alternative to the Ds on spending has hurt you more so than the puritans that continue say stupid shiat in public.

After 2000-06 you dont have a lot of credibility on spending.....time to earn some back.

[FaninAma]

Well your memory is certainly skewed. Reagan spent like a drunken sailor. Some of it was absolutely wasteful like the renovation of battleships that were only successful against small nations. And your boy Newt was the king of pork. Do you dispute that Reagan agreed to tax hikes or not.? Do you dispute that Gingrich and the GOP helped balance the federal budget with entitlement reform or not? And I guess the democratically controlled Congress in the 1980's had nothing to do with the sepnding that took place. You need a civic lesson if you don't. reagan raised military spending. His economic policies also increased tax revenues greatly but social spending went up faster.





Then they need to raise taxes. I am sorry but that is a huge source of the problem. Yes we need to cut spending but lets face some hard truths here. W sent our kids to war and at the same time reduced taxes on the rich and about everyone else. Name anytime when we went to war that we did not suck it up as a country, sacrifice and pay for the war as we went along as best we could? W ask the nation to go shopping and he cut taxes. What he did was sent our kids to die in two wars and then he handed them the bill for fighting the war. You want to know what I really think? I think the current generation needs to man up and take it in the ***......we need to pay for the war, cut current benefits to current retirees including federal retirees and get some of this under control. So what if it hurts the American dream. We created this debt and we need to pay for it now. I do not give a chit if taxes go through the roof on everyone.
George W was a dumbass. He is the reason Obama has been elected twice. He was a dismal failure but at least most conservatives recognize his presidency was a dismal failure. I sure don't expect the same out the democrats with Obama. However, there was a little thing called 9-11 after which the economy and markets crashed. Also, isn't it Obama and the demmocrats who are crowing about reinstituting Bush's tax cuts for 98% of taxpayers and wasn't it Obama who cut payroll taxes and instituted several stuimulus packages of his own. If you are going to criticize Bush at least have a semblance of objectivity and comment on Obama's tax cuts and stimulus programs. Also, research the history of Congressional laws promoting home ownership in the late 90's and 2000's.




Well given the history of the Republican Party I might appreciate your non-support. :)

The best way know-it-all teenagers understand the error of their actions is to step back and allow them to deal with the consequences of said actions.




Our rich ....uber rich pay effective tax rates of less than 15%. To sit here and tell me they cannot take a tax hike is pure demagoguery. There is almost no evidence that tax rates affect economic growth. Remind me what the rates were under Ike or even Reagan.

Again you miss the point. I can live with a tax hike IF I knew that the democrats would follow through on entitlement reform which is the real reason our country is getting crushed with debt. I see zero evidence that the democratic party is in the least bit interested in doing this.



One more time we are not Greece.

Neither was Greece 25 years ago meaning they didn't arrive at their current situation overnight. Also, Greece wouldn't be Greece now if they could print their own money and buy their own bonds. The US can but the ability to monetize your own debt won't last forever. Treasury bond rates of less than 1.5% won't last forever, either. Lets see which gets cut first once interest rates rise....servicing the national debt or entitlement programs. We aren't Greece only as long as the rest of the world sees the USD as the world's reserve currency. Once that goes away so does our ability to find people to buy our debt which is already happening and the reason the federal Reserve has had to engage in 3 years worth of QE programs. Don't you ever wonder about that? If everybody were lining up to buy our debt why would the Fed need to be so aggessive? And remember it's not just the Fed, other central banks are feverishly working to prop up our debt and maintain the USD as the world's reserve currency since the whole system of fractional reserve banking is based on the Bretton Wood's agreement and keeping the USD as the reserve currency for the rest of the world.

You really need to educate yourself on these issues before wading out into the deep water.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Conventional Wisdom says they will reach a compromise at the 11 th hour of 2012 - or they will go over the cliff for a few days into 2013 in a game of chicken. But it is not likely that they will go over the cliff for good, with no deal at all.

[diverdog]

Do you dispute that Reagan agreed to tax hikes or not.? Do you dispute that Gingrich and the GOP helped balance the federal budget with entitlement reform or not? And I guess the democratically controlled Congress in the 1980's had nothing to do with the sepnding that took place. You need a civic lesson if you don't. reagan raised military spending. His economic policies also increased tax revenues greatly but social spending went up faster.





George W was a dumbass. He is the reason Obama has been elected twice. He was a dismal failure but at least most conservatives recognize his presidency was a dismal failure. I sure don't expect the same out the democrats with Obama. However, there was a little thing called 9-11 after which the economy and markets crashed. Also, isn't it Obama and the demmocrats who are crowing about reinstituting Bush's tax cuts for 98% of taxpayers and wasn't it Obama who cut payroll taxes and instituted several stuimulus packages of his own. If you are going to criticize Bush at least have a semblance of objectivity and comment on Obama's tax cuts and stimulus programs. Also, research the history of Congressional laws promoting home ownership in the late 90's and 2000's.





The best way know-it-all teenagers understand the error of their actions is to step back and allow them to deal with the consequences of said actions.





Again you miss the point. I can live with a tax hike IF I knew that the democrats would follow through on entitlement reform which is the real reason our country is getting crushed with debt. I see zero evidence that the democratic party is in the least bit interested in doing this.




Neither was Greece 25 years ago meaning they didn't arrive at their current situation overnight. Also, Greece wouldn't be Greece now if they could print their own money and buy their own bonds. The US can but the ability to monetize your own debt won't last forever. Treasury bond rates of less than 1.5% won't last forever, either. Lets see which gets cut first once interest rates rise....servicing the national debt or entitlement programs. We aren't Greece only as long as the rest of the world sees the USD as the world's reserve currency. Once that goes away so does our ability to find people to buy our debt which is already happening and the reason the federal Reserve has had to engage in 3 years worth of QE programs. Don't you ever wonder about that? If everybody were lining up to buy our debt why would the Fed need to be so aggessive? And remember it's not just the Fed, other central banks are feverishly working to prop up our debt and maintain the USD as the world's reserve currency since the whole system of fractional reserve banking is based on the Bretton Wood's agreement and keeping the USD as the reserve currency for the rest of the world.

You really need to educate yourself on these issues before wading out into the deep water.

Fan:

I will answer the bolded part and then I have to go to bed because I am feeling awful. Hence my sour mood.

The St. Louis Federal Reserve branch looked into the causes for the increase in federal revenue during the Reagan years. The tax hikes he passed each year from 1982 to 1988, together with the effects of inflation, accounted for 93% of the increase in revenues. Only 7% of the increase could be traced back to the effects of the Reagan tax cuts. Reagan spent a lot but he also misjudged revenues.

To be fair to you I will let you know that I work for one of the companies that is working on the Greek bond problems. Trust me I know a whole lot more than I am letting on.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/3/prweb9287391.htm

Look on the bright side. Greece does not have Delaware courts.


DD

[East Coast Bias]

I am willing to go off the cliff if that is what Pubs want in this game of chicken. Sure it would i Itncrease my taxes and everyone else's, but look what we get in military cuts. And yes, the cadence in this is skewed, but I don't see this as an all-out bad thing.... It is better than this runaway debt scenario....-

[diverdog]

I disagree...more and more people are getting fed up with what is going on in DC...and if things don't get turned around both sides are going to get more then their share of the blame...

Once we find out that the pizz ant tax increases don't do **** to reduce the deficit or debt and that major cuts in entitlements are then going to be required then the **** will hit the fan...

If things are not better in two years you will see a slaughter during the next mid term elections...

phil:

A lot of our problems have some relatively simple fixes. You and I have discussed SS and what needs to be done. An economist friend of mine said that if we take the FICA tax and increase it to 15.9% that will fix a whole lot of things. Sure it is a 28% increase but people still get a lot of it back. Most of our problems just involve the lack of political will. Most Americans want SS and Medicare and we should admit that is the way things are and fund it.

Our debt to GDP has been higher like after WW II and we got through it. Our biggest issues are lack of economic growth and an aging population. If I were Obama I would jump on converting everything to NG, drive down energy cost and get our manufacturing back. Get exports going and we will be in good shape.

I am also not opposed to restructuring welfare. And of course I would like to see a spending freeze for 5 years.

[diverdog]

Who is "that ****** bag cry baby Boner"?

The Speaker of the House...Boehner. The Republicans should remove him as the parties leader. I dislike him as much as Reid and Pelosi.

[FaninAma]

Conventional Wisdom says they will reach a compromise at the 11 th hour of 2012 - or they will go over the cliff for a few days into 2013 in a game of chicken. But it is not likely that they will go over the cliff for good, with no deal at all.

The Republicans are fighting for the survival of their own party. If they cave without serious entitlement reform the GOP will suffer the same fate that the Conservative party in Canada did after Brian Mulroney left power. It is only now that the conservative party in Canada is making a comeback but it is doing so as a completely different party called Reform Canada.

I think you underestimate the Republican's resolve this time and understandably so considering their past track record of caving. But this time I actually think they inderstand the stakes and will not cave.

BTW, doesn't it scare the **** out of you that Obama has made such an uncconstitutional power grab in asking for control of the debt ceiling? You would think even the democrats in congress would be calling him out on this.

[FaninAma]

Look on the bright side. Greece does not have Delaware courts.

I can appreciate that. I am still following the Washington Mutual case. It has been a real eye opener.

The fact that the Fed is propping up the assets of everything in this country does not bode well for the future. We are now like the town of Bedford Falls in the movie It's A Wonderful Life" with Ben Bernanke playing the role Mr. Potter. Except in this version there is no Bailey Savings and Loan because it is already owned by Potter's bank so we will eventually all end up living in Pottersville.

[diverdog]

I can appreciate that. I am still following the Washington Mutual case. It has been a real eye opener.

The fact that the Fed is propping up the assets of everything in this country does not bold well for the future. We are now like the town of Bedford Falls in the movie It's A Wonderful Life" with Ben Bernanke playing the role Mr. Potter. Except in this version there is no Bailey Savings and Loan because it is already owned by Potter's bank so we will eventually all end up living in Pottersville.

The only issue is if we have inflation and they need to sell those assets. Until then I am not overly worried.

I think we are involved in the WaMu deal but I do not know for sure.

[pphilfran]

phil:

A lot of our problems have some relatively simple fixes. You and I have discussed SS and what needs to be done. An economist friend of mine said that if we take the FICA tax and increase it to 15.9% that will fix a whole lot of things. Sure it is a 28% increase but people still get a lot of it back. Most of our problems just involve the lack of political will. Most Americans want SS and Medicare and we should admit that is the way things are and fund it.

Our debt to GDP has been higher like after WW II and we got through it. Our biggest issues are lack of economic growth and an aging population. If I were Obama I would jump on converting everything to NG, drive down energy cost and get our manufacturing back. Get exports going and we will be in good shape.

I am also not opposed to restructuring welfare. And of course I would like to see a spending freeze for 5 years.

DD, a agree...

I think the latest SS trustee report said that 16% (somewhere in that range) would get us over the hump (tax increase or age requirement increase or combination)...

As far as the overall budget goes, the economy is killing us on both ends...

Revenue is down by at least 2% of GDP and expenditures are up by at least 1%...possibly 2%...

We get the economy at normal operating levels and we cut the deficit by nearly half with no benefit cuts or tax increases...

[sappstuf]

The Republicans are fighting for the survival of their own party. If they cave without serious entitlement reform the GOP will suffer the same fate that the Conservative party in Canada did after Brian Mulroney left power. It is only now that the conservative party in Canada is making a comeback but it is doing so as a completely different party called Reform Canada.

I think you underestimate the Republican's resolve this time and understandably so considering their past track record of caving. But this time I actually think they inderstand the stakes and will not cave.

BTW, doesn't it scare the **** out of you that Obama has made such an uncconstitutional power grab in asking for control of the debt ceiling? You would think even the democrats in congress would be calling him out on this.

Nah... Nancy said she fully backs Obama's power grab.

[rock on sooner]

So who caves....the GOP or the Democrats? I am very interested in the opinion of some of the resident progressives.

Who caves? Don't know for certain, but BOTH should give....Medicare/Medicaid
first should be thoroughly scrubbed for waste fraud and abuse (roughly $500
billion in savings) then tweak payment structure and means testing for eligibility.,
SS does NOT add to the deficit..either a slight increase in paying in or raising the
salary cap or a combo of both will strengthen SS far into the future.

Spending cuts should be non military and across the board..a small % the first
year and an additional % each year following for up to ten years. Military should
consolidate 3 and 2 mission sites into one, crosstrain/retrain redundancies and
bring them home to work on our infrastructure (WPA type of deal). Additionally,
carrier battlegroups could be 9 down from 11...not sure why we have 11. And,
finally for the military, standardize weapons systems where possible.

For revenue, there are several ideas floating, but reverting to Clinton tax rates
will generate approx $2.6 trillion more than Obama's plan over a ten year span.
Deductions could be formatted in "bucket" style...$25K or $50K would help the
middle class and cause the wealthy to pay a higher %. Other loopholes and silly
ear marks eliminated would increase revenue.

To help growth, I propose amnesty for all the overseas $$$ that corps have and
allow them to bring it home, invest in R & D, new equipment and increased production.
Along with amnesty, lower corporate tax rates to 25% (since very few pay the 35% rate
anyway). Along with the aforementioned WPA type program for our infrastructure,
increased mfgring would accelerate job growth and the economy growth will follow.

The energy sector should stay with renewable programs, push harder on a national
framework for NG. TransCanada pipeline brought online border to border. (won't
create nearly the number of permanent jobs proponents claim but will help) One
problem here is the other pipeline already in place has had 14 reported leaks over
a two year period, so I think environmentalists have a legitimate concern.

Fan, don't know if I'm a progressive, a lib, a moderate or whatever label you want.
I am a pragmatist and a realist, though. Our country needs both sides to put aside
rigid thinking and ideologies. Our country needs reasoned thought and uncompromising
compromises. Jus sayin..

[rock on sooner]

One other point, Fan, DD and the others, thanks for the exchanges, in
this thread. Well thought out and well presented, enjoyable reading without
a lot of brickbats being tossed around!

[pphilfran]

Who caves? Don't know for certain, but BOTH should give....Medicare/Medicaid
first should be thoroughly scrubbed for waste fraud and abuse (roughly $500
billion in savings) then tweak payment structure and means testing for eligibility.,
SS does NOT add to the deficit..either a slight increase in paying in or raising the
salary cap or a combo of both will strengthen SS far into the future.

Spending cuts should be non military and across the board..a small % the first
year and an additional % each year following for up to ten years. Military should
consolidate 3 and 2 mission sites into one, crosstrain/retrain redundancies and
bring them home to work on our infrastructure (WPA type of deal). Additionally,
carrier battlegroups could be 9 down from 11...not sure why we have 11. And,
finally for the military, standardize weapons systems where possible.

For revenue, there are several ideas floating, but reverting to Clinton tax rates
will generate approx $2.6 trillion more than Obama's plan over a ten year span.
Deductions could be formatted in "bucket" style...$25K or $50K would help the
middle class and cause the wealthy to pay a higher %. Other loopholes and silly
ear marks eliminated would increase revenue.

To help growth, I propose amnesty for all the overseas $$$ that corps have and
allow them to bring it home, invest in R & D, new equipment and increased production.
Along with amnesty, lower corporate tax rates to 25% (since very few pay the 35% rate
anyway). Along with the aforementioned WPA type program for our infrastructure,
increased mfgring would accelerate job growth and the economy growth will follow.

The energy sector should stay with renewable programs, push harder on a national
framework for NG. TransCanada pipeline brought online border to border. (won't
create nearly the number of permanent jobs proponents claim but will help) One
problem here is the other pipeline already in place has had 14 reported leaks over
a two year period, so I think environmentalists have a legitimate concern.

Fan, don't know if I'm a progressive, a lib, a moderate or whatever label you want.
I am a pragmatist and a realist, though. Our country needs both sides to put aside
rigid thinking and ideologies. Our country needs reasoned thought and uncompromising
compromises. Jus sayin..

Clinton's tax rate won't give us 150 billion in 2013....at most it gave him 1% of GDP (probably closer to one half percent) in a thriving economy...100 billion max if all tax classes get hit... make it only those above 250k and it will be closer to 50 billion in 2013....

[rock on sooner]

Phil, I think the CBO (the source of the $2.6 trillion number) is assuming a
stronger economy and more robust growth the second year out (but I don't
know this). Any projections assume more robust growth than the 1.5%-2.0%
we currently have. If some of the things in my post are put in place, then I'm
confident we would get the necessary growth...housing, energy, infrastructure
improvements, much less spending on the gov't and military. Incidentally, I
don't think the cuts I mentioned to the military weaken us in the least.

[pphilfran]

Instead of cuts I prefer to freeze spending at current levels...that would get us back in line without any harm to the economy...

Grow the economy and we will see more revenue...but the Clinton tax rates are not going to give us much help....the following is from another thread...

From 1988 -1992 (5 years) the highest tax rate was from 28% to 31%...the avg revenue as a percent of GDP - 18.0%

From 1993 - 1997 (5 years) the highest tax rate was 39.6%...the avg revenue as a percent of GDP - 18.4%

From 1998 - 2002 (5 years) the highest tax rate was still above 39%...the avg revenue as a percent of GDP - 19.5%

Now lets look at cap gains during those same time periods....keep in mind we have a great economy that was generating a lot of wealth...also, the LTCG rate was at, or above 29% and only dropped to 21% in 1998 until 2003

1988 - 1992 - .57% of GDP (point 57%)
1993 - 1997 - .85% of GDP (point 85%)
1998 - 2002 - .99% of GDP (point 99%)

Now, let's pull out those cap gains increases from the income tax numbers and see what we get...

1988 - 1992 - 17.41% of GDP
1993 - 1997 - 17.53% of GDP (it appears that the higher income tax rates did nothing to increase revenue outside of LTCG)
1998 - 2002 - 18.49% of GDP (in this time frame we see revenue increase...why in this 5 year period but no the prior 5 year period)

Here is what we have...
Cap gains revenue increased even though the rate was decreased
Total revenue (outside of LTCG) didn't grow the first 5 year period of the Clinton tax increase
Total revenue (outside of LTCG) grew by 1% of GDP during the last five year period - a period of unprecedented economic, productivity, and stock market growth

So let's take best case and say we will see a 1% gain in revenue as a percent of GDP (as my data shows, it ain't gonna happen)

15 trillion dollar economy...150 billion in revenue...max...while we deal with trillion dollar deficits...

All the above numbers are from...

Cap gains http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=161
Gen revenue - table 1.2 http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals

[soonercruiser]

The Speaker of the House...Boehner. The Republicans should remove him as the parties leader. I dislike him as much as Reid and Pelosi.

Agree with you Diver!
I think that Paul Ryan should be the Leader.

[soonercruiser]

The Republicans put themselves in a much worse position by being so dogmatic about their beliefs... Norquist pledges and such. They have very little flexibility here and are now in a horrible position of having to defend 2% of Americans to the apparent detriment of 98%.

Here!
Mid thinks that Dems are not dogmatic in their beliefs!!!
Arf, arf!

[cleller]

They are both acting like idiots. Sure the Repubs need to give up over the tax thing. Let the Dems be the party to raise taxes.

For the Dems, what is their plan? Raise some taxes, and tweek the tax code hoping to get still more taxes. A one-prong attack. Followed by more spending. Absolutely gutless and too little. Does anyone believe this two bit plan Geitner was forced to deliver will be sufficient? Top it off with an unlimited debt ceiling, with only Obama to approve it.

I can't believe that soggy mess has not been torn to pieces in the media.

[rock on sooner]

Agree with you Diver!
I think that Paul Ryan should be the Leader.

Really? He has more devastatiing budget issues than even
Obama. He wants to take from Medicare benefits, not the
providers. The guy is nutz, completely rigid. Doesn't even
recognize the word compromise...

[soonercruiser]

Obama already took almost $500 Million from Medicare.
Ryan would be late to that party.

You, rock, are clueless about Medicare providers!
I am in the field! I even got a billing notice as a patient this week.
Doctor billed $127....Medicare approved "$0"!
Duh.
That's one of the reasons I quit.....to many Medicare patients!

[FaninAma]

Really? He has more devastatiing budget issues than even
Obama. He wants to take from Medicare benefits, not the
providers. The guy is nutz, completely rigid. Doesn't even
recognize the word compromise...
Do you really not realize that this is indirect rationing? Providers are fleeing from Medicare.

[diverdog]

Obama already took almost $500 Million from Medicare.
Ryan would be late to that party.

You, rock, are clueless about Medicare providers!
I am in the field! I even got a billing notice as a patient this week.
Doctor billed $127....Medicare approved "$0"!
Duh.
That's one of the reasons I quit.....to many Medicare patients!

Cruiser:

When are you going to learn that sacrificing a chicken on voodoo alter is a non-reimbursable expense under medicare? Jeez!

[FaninAma]

Cruiser:

When are you going to learn that sacrificing a chicken on voodoo alter is a non-reimbursable expense under medicare? Jeez!
Big healthcare systems are even starting to talk about not accepting medicaid. I doubt it happens in the near future but the fact that they are talking about it is a sea change in the area of children's healthcare.

[diverdog]

Big healthcare systems are even starting to talk about not accepting medicaid. I doubt it happens in the near future but the fact that they are talking about it is a sea change in the area of children's healthcare.

Pretty simple fix. Write a law mandating that they take it or lose their license. :subdued:

Then again we can grind up the poor and make them Soylent Green.

[SoonerorLater]

What principals? The Republicans are every bit as corrupt as the Democrats and it appears they are poorly led. Actually the are dumber than a bag of bricks.

Obama wants to get the middle class cuts done and off the table. This is a no brainer and politically popular. Yet that ****** bag cry baby Boner won't give an inch. Why?

Please elaborate who is "that ****** bag cry baby Boner" that you are referring to? Is this somebody that has something to do with the budget talks. Please explain.

[rock on sooner]

They are both acting like idiots. Sure the Repubs need to give up over the tax thing. Let the Dems be the party to raise taxes.

For the Dems, what is their plan? Raise some taxes, and tweek the tax code hoping to get still more taxes. A one-prong attack. Followed by more spending. Absolutely gutless and too little. Does anyone believe this two bit plan Geitner was forced to deliver will be sufficient? Top it off with an unlimited debt ceiling, with only Obama to approve it.

I can't believe that soggy mess has not been torn to pieces in the media.

Media is more than likely waiting for the Pubs to put out some
sort of plan, then there is equal opportunity ripping!

[SoonerorLater]

No new taxes. Huge spending cuts. Eliminate Depts of Energy, Education, Commerce and Housing Human Services, Homeland Security and Urban Development. Severe cuts to Agriculture and Interior. Obliterate the Federal Reserve Bank. Shutter most military bases on foreign soil. Eliminate foreign aid.

[rock on sooner]

No new taxes. Huge spending cuts. Eliminate Depts of Energy, Education, Commerce and Housing Human Services, Homeland Security and Urban Development. Severe cuts to Agriculture and Interior. Obliterate the Federal Reserve Bank. Shutter most military bases on foreign soil. Eliminate foreign aid.

Sounds about right...:stupid:

[diverdog]

No new taxes. Huge spending cuts. Eliminate Depts of Energy, Education, Commerce and Housing Human Services, Homeland Security and Urban Development. Severe cuts to Agriculture and Interior. Obliterate the Federal Reserve Bank. Shutter most military bases on foreign soil. Eliminate foreign aid.

You would get at the most $200 billion in cuts. At the most. Getting rid of the Federal Reserve is just nuts.

[diverdog]

Please elaborate who is "that ****** bag cry baby Boner" that you are referring to? Is this somebody that has something to do with the budget talks. Please explain.

Are you just being dense?

here:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NDyt_qCCiTo

[cleller]

Then again we can grind up the poor and make them Soylent Green.

How about letting them learn what it means to be responsible for providing for yourself and your offspring, and the consequences of not being diligent in that area?

[SoonerorLater]

Are you just being dense?

here:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NDyt_qCCiTo

Oh, then you are referring to Speaker of the House JOHN BOEHNER. Why the pejorative language just because you may not agree with him? He is just doing what he and the rest of the House of Representatives were elected to do, stop Barack Obama. Which by definition would not make him a ****** bag. It would make him a hero.

[Soonerjeepman]

my take is obama has NO interest in any compromise....he'll take the country over the cliff....then "save the day". That is why the pubs are not "compromising"...your boy isn't.

[Soonerjeepman]

interesting facts...thought obama was against raising taxes on 98% of the folks...
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/12/03/morning-bell-what-is-the-fiscal-cliff/?roi=echo3-13920256369-10478721-edd94433ba1f9ed138e4d22a833584b6&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Morning%2BBell

[sappstuf]

http://global.nationalreview.com/images/cartoon_120112_A.jpg

[diverdog]

Oh, then you are referring to Speaker of the House JOHN BOEHNER. Why the pejorative language just because you may not agree with him? He is just doing what he and the rest of the House of Representatives were elected to do, stop Barack Obama. Which by definition would not make him a ****** bag. It would make him a hero.

What he needs to do is compromise on tax increases. Dems need to compromise on entitlements.

[Sooner5030]

What he needs to do is compromise on tax increases. Dems need to compromise on entitlements.


Both sides have set their anchor.....lets see who moves and how much. I actually think the pubs will move.....due to the election I dont see the dems moving at all. Even if Obama wants them to I don't see Pelosi and Reid agreeing to any entitlement cuts.

Other than theater...I do not care either way. To me the "fiscal cliff" is just some scare tactic to keep the deficit induced growth going.

[okie52]

What he needs to do is compromise on tax increases. Dems need to compromise on entitlements.

Right now Hussein's compromise requires tax increases of about 4 to 1 over spending cuts. Way to reach across the aisle.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Really? He has more devastatiing budget issues than even
Obama. He wants to take from Medicare benefits, not the
providers. The guy is nutz, completely rigid. Doesn't even
recognize the word compromise...definitely who we need to counter The Socialist.

[rainiersooner]

I personally support the Bush tax cuts and would like to see them remain in place...but why would Obama "care" about this so called "cliff"? It just restores taxes to a level that most democrats would like to see. And the cliff part is pure hyberbole - no one can claim with certainty that it throws us back into recession. I actually think nothing gets done and Obama gets away with blaming it on the Republicans - a shrewd political move, if not one that I endorse.

[pphilfran]

I personally support the Bush tax cuts and would like to see them remain in place...but why would Obama "care" about this so called "cliff"? It just restores taxes to a level that most democrats would like to see. And the cliff part is pure hyberbole - no one can claim with certainty that it throws us back into recession. I actually think nothing gets done and Obama gets away with blaming it on the Republicans - a shrewd political move, if not one that I endorse.

It is a big deal...just off the top of my head...

The temp payroll taxes gets dumped
Most of Clinton tax rate (total range, not just higher income)
Change to the ATM
40 billion in military spending on top of the 40 billion that is already going to take place
Slew of other discretionary spending cuts

All together about 120 billion in cuts and increased revenue.....not the right time to do these things with the economy just out of intensive care...

[SanJoaquinSooner]

It is a big deal...just off the top of my head...

The temp payroll taxes gets dumped
Most of Clinton tax rate (total range, not just higher income)
Change to the ATM
40 billion in military spending on top of the 40 billion that is already going to take place
Slew of other discretionary spending cuts

All together about 120 billion in cuts and increased revenue.....not the right time to do these things with the economy just out of intensive care...

Would it be actuarily sound for the temp payroll tax rate to become permanent?

[pphilfran]

Would it be actuarily sound for the temp payroll tax rate to become permanent?

Sure, if you are fine with increasing the full benefit age to 75 or so....

[sappstuf]

Right now Hussein's compromise requires tax increases of about 4 to 1 over spending cuts. Way to reach across the aisle.

It is funny how the $1 in new taxes for $10 in spending cuts has magically disappeared.

[soonerhubs]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/12/04/obama-rachel-maddow-al-sharpton_n_2240011.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Obama seeking a view from the other side. November's promises of leadership and compromise turn into December's acts of leader**** and ****** baggery.

[cleller]

Just for entertainment, here is the CBO/White House budget deficit project graph from March 2009

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/ProjectedBudgetDeficit.jpg

[sappstuf]

Just for entertainment, here is the CBO/White House budget deficit project graph from March 2009

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/ProjectedBudgetDeficit.jpg

Deficits were $1.3 trillion this year.

You would need to be smoking a pretty big joint to believe it will be around the $600 billion mark this fiscal year...

http://soyunyonki.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/cheech-chong1.jpg

Cheech still doesn't believe it.

[pphilfran]

Deficits were $1.3 trillion this year.

You would need to be smoking a pretty big joint to believe it will be around the $600 billion mark this fiscal year...

http://soyunyonki.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/cheech-chong1.jpg

Cheech still doesn't believe it.

They missed badly when they thought the stimulus (shovel ready) would reduce unemployment at a much faster rate than actually happened...and that hurt both revenue and spending dramatically...

[diverdog]

They missed badly when they thought the stimulus (shovel ready) would reduce unemployment at a much faster rate than actually happened...and that hurt both revenue and spending dramatically...
Phil:

I think what really hurt the is the amount of money in the stimulu that got kicked back to the states along with the unemployment payout shortfall. The bulk pf the money never went to the projects that created jobs.

[pphilfran]

Phil:

I think what really hurt the is the amount of money in the stimulu that got kicked back to the states along with the unemployment payout shortfall. The bulk pf the money never went to the projects that created jobs.

That and they didn't put enough into long term stimulus projects...replacing sidewalks in Hastings, Ok was not the type of stimulus needed over the long term...they should have funded a dozen or so 50 billion dollar projects...they would still be in construction stage and we would still be reaping benefits today and in the future...