Thank God for texas...

[Soonerjeepman]

what a joke...

Grapevine schools teaching Boston Tea Party equivalent to terrorist.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1986710035001/

[okie52]

If they are tea party they can't be good.

[KantoSooner]

Seems kind of silly. I suppose if the point is that the same event can be looked at differently depending on which side you occupy....no, it's just silliness.

[SicEmBaylor]

Technically, it was a terrorist act. Terrorist acts are not always unjustified. Depends on the circumstance and type of attack.

[JohnnyMack]

I think it's a terrific exercise. It forces you to look at something from a different angle.

Oh god! Make them stop! They might gain a new perspective!!!

[SicEmBaylor]

I think it's a terrific exercise. It forces you to look at something from a different angle.

Oh god! Make them stop! They might gain a new perspective!!!

This.

[TUSooner]

Technically, it was a terrorist act. Terrorist acts are not always unjustified. Depends on the circumstance and type of attack.
True. But the Boston Tea Party is a rather lame example of "terrorism," being basically bloodless and all. Mainly it's a bad example because it wasn't even meant to "terrify," was it?

[XingTheRubicon]

I guess it'll be interesting when they start covering 1830's texas history.


Wonder if they get that "different angle" then...

[KantoSooner]

I wonder if the teacher made the point that taxes on colonials were far lower than on Britons living in Britain.
The only legitimate beef our guys had was that they didn't get seats in parliament. Had George 3 had the common sense to grant seats in parliament to colonials circa 1760, the whole thing would have blown over. Now THAT would have been a kick *** empire!

Of course you would have to do the same thing with the Indians (dot on forehead type) and thus we would have had Prime Minister Krishravnaran Ganapathy by the late nineteenth century. But that could have worked out, too. We'd probably have curry restaurants across america today.

Damn.

What could have been....

Oh, and slavery would have ended 30 years earlier.

And the military manpower and industrial power of the US, added to that of the rest of the BritEmp would have entered WWI years earlier. And, even if the flag ranks of the British army were mental deficits, that much more manpower would have made a difference. And so the war would have ended much quicker. This, in turn would have removed pressure from the Russian front and arms from Russian conscripts. So, arguably, the Russian Revolution would not have happened. No Russian rev, then what of WWII? Would the Russkies have piled in on our side earlier? Would they have sat it out entirely? What about the Chinese Rev? Maybe we're all still be bitching about the corruption of the Kuo Min Tang Government.

Damn, that King George! He really put the cat amongst the pidgeons!

[Midtowner]

It's a good exercise. It demonstrates how slanted historical accounts written by the victors can be.

[SicEmBaylor]

True. But the Boston Tea Party is a rather lame example of "terrorism," being basically bloodless and all. Mainly it's a bad example because it wasn't even meant to "terrify," was it?

Yes, but what they did to British tax agents and Gov. Hutchinson were definite acts of terrorism.

[KantoSooner]

Don't be so grumpy. The entire Whisky Rebellion cries out for interpretation as domestic terrorism. Both by the feds and by the farmers. We were a more linear people in those days.

[KABOOKIE]

I guess it'll be interesting when they start covering 1830's texas history.


Wonder if they get that "different angle" then...

Haha. Yeah you don't know your history unless you put the shoe on the other foot! Gosh who knew the big bad mean USA was a bunch of terrorist to those poor Japanese and Germans! Lol. That school probably teaches evolution as "just a theory". Heh.

[Midtowner]

Haha. Yeah you don't know your history unless you put the shoe on the other foot!

Actually, yes. You can never really understand a problem until you've tried to see both sides of it.

[okie52]

Yep, I wonder how the Atlanta newspapers wrote about Sherman?

[SicEmBaylor]

Yep, I wonder how the Atlanta newspapers wrote about Sherman?

Another great example of the victors writing the history -- Sherman was a war criminal yet he's treated as a hero.

[KABOOKIE]

Yep, I wonder how the Atlanta newspapers wrote about Sherman?

Another great example of the victors writing the history -- Sherman was a war criminal yet he's treated as a hero.

Yes and that war was about states rights. Besides all them slave owners were war criminals by default and needed to be burned.

[cleller]

How about that second story on the vid about Rahm Emanuel giving away $25 gift card for parents to come to parent-teacher conferences?

Just more taxpayer giveaways to try and pay people to act human. What's next? A daily payment to people who don't commit crimes?

[Soonerjeepman]

How about that second story on the vid about Rahm Emanuel giving away $25 gift card for parents to come to parent-teacher conferences?

Just more taxpayer giveaways to try and pay people to act human. What's next? A daily payment to people who don't commit crimes?

yup...it is amazing what the urban parents see as good parenting. Sure my kid would love for me to get paid to get OFF his a$$ about school~ ;-)


I'm all for teaching looking at things with a different perspective, but it goes both ways, we get Vote for Obama shoved down our throats here in the urban core.

[Midtowner]

As liberal as some of y'all think I am, I really am at a loss with regard to the culture surrounding some of our citizens in poverty. Their mindset is just totally hopelessly different and incompatible with a long-term functional society.

What means can be used to cull the herd?

I'd almost be willing to start offering cash payments to women to get 'fixed' after they lose children to child welfare services--they can always adopt later if they get their isht together. Maybe offer to pay off child support arrearages for men who volunteer for vasectomies after having kids they can't or won't pay for? I know some folks are going to scream eugenics, but that's not what I'm talking about. This isn't about race or genetics or any of that. It's about the values passed down through the culture of poverty. Yes, some folks do manage to rise above from time to time, but by and large, these communities are an anchor around society's neck which will get heavier and heavier as time goes on.

If you've worked in the juvenile system as much as I have, you'll have seen parents who really are beyond help. You'll see meth addicts who have just given birth to their twelfth child to be taken away by the state. As draconian as it sounds, sterilization really is probably the only long-term viable option.

[okie52]

As liberal as some of y'all think I am, I really am at a loss with regard to the culture surrounding some of our citizens in poverty. Their mindset is just totally hopelessly different and incompatible with a long-term functional society.

What means can be used to cull the herd?

I'd almost be willing to start offering cash payments to women to get 'fixed' after they lose children to child welfare services--they can always adopt later if they get their isht together. Maybe offer to pay off child support arrearages for men who volunteer for vasectomies after having kids they can't or won't pay for? I know some folks are going to scream eugenics, but that's not what I'm talking about. This isn't about race or genetics or any of that. It's about the values passed down through the culture of poverty. Yes, some folks do manage to rise above from time to time, but by and large, these communities are an anchor around society's neck which will get heavier and heavier as time goes on.

If you've worked in the juvenile system as much as I have, you'll have seen parents who really are beyond help. You'll see meth addicts who have just given birth to their twelfth child to be taken away by the state. As draconian as it sounds, sterilization really is probably the only long-term viable option.

I agree.

Probably should be offered to all welfare recipients and illegals here too.

[Midtowner]

I agree.

Probably should be offered to all welfare recipients and illegals here too.

I'm surprised we haven't seen state run clinics offering these services already. This is something I'm sure the right wing fundamentalists would be dead set against, or at least if they were in favor of it, they'd again by tied in moralistic knots trying to justify it. A program paying cash bounties to welfare recipients for sterilization was actually proposed in the Louisiana legislature some years ago and was shot down by folks claiming it was some sort of white supremacist/eugenics plot against black folks.

How politically feasible is something when you have both religious fundamentalists and blacks allied against you. That'd be toxic to either political party.

[JohnnyMack]

As liberal as some of y'all think I am, I really am at a loss with regard to the culture surrounding some of our citizens in poverty. Their mindset is just totally hopelessly different and incompatible with a long-term functional society.

What means can be used to cull the herd?

I'd almost be willing to start offering cash payments to women to get 'fixed' after they lose children to child welfare services--they can always adopt later if they get their isht together. Maybe offer to pay off child support arrearages for men who volunteer for vasectomies after having kids they can't or won't pay for? I know some folks are going to scream eugenics, but that's not what I'm talking about. This isn't about race or genetics or any of that. It's about the values passed down through the culture of poverty. Yes, some folks do manage to rise above from time to time, but by and large, these communities are an anchor around society's neck which will get heavier and heavier as time goes on.

If you've worked in the juvenile system as much as I have, you'll have seen parents who really are beyond help. You'll see meth addicts who have just given birth to their twelfth child to be taken away by the state. As draconian as it sounds, sterilization really is probably the only long-term viable option.

Hitler called, he says he thinks you're on to something.

I keed! I keed!

Poverty is an inevitability. Having them all spayed and neutered isn't going to change the fact that you're going to have poor, uneducated people as part of your society. It's part of the socio-economic evolutionary crawl that cultures must go through.

[okie52]

I'm surprised we haven't seen state run clinics offering these services already. This is something I'm sure the right wing fundamentalists would be dead set against, or at least if they were in favor of it, they'd again by tied in moralistic knots trying to justify it. A program paying cash bounties to welfare recipients for sterilization was actually proposed in the Louisiana legislature some years ago and was shot down by folks claiming it was some sort of white supremacist/eugenics plot against black folks.

How politically feasible is something when you have both religious fundamentalists and blacks allied against you. That'd be toxic to either political party.

1-its voluntary although I would make it mandatory if they want to receive benefits. And, most of the procedures would be reversible so it wouldn't be permanent.

2-I don't know if right wing fundies would be against birth control. Catholics for sure but I don't think of them as right wing. I'd figure a lot of lefties would oppose it because it might shrink their future base.

[Midtowner]

Poverty is an inevitability. Having them all spayed and neutered isn't going to change the fact that you're going to have poor, uneducated people as part of your society. It's part of the socio-economic evolutionary crawl that cultures must go through.

Yes, in any society, there is poverty. If nothing else because some people will be relatively poor than others. I'm not talking about poverty per se, but the culture associated therewith. Really, if you haven't stood at a gas station in "that" part of town and had someone offer to sell you a rock of crystal meth while a gang of hoodlums begins to approach your vehicle with ill intent, you really don't understand the different sort of world some people live in.

Growing up, you were probably taught that an education, working your kiester off and getting a good job would make you successful. We're talking about folks who grew up as children being raised either by a guardian who saw their physical presence as a means to a government check, or folks who grew up scavenging for themselves. These are folks who grew up not understanding structure, hard work or understanding how to be upwardly mobile in society. By the time they even make it to grade school, they've been starved, probably have a number of mental deficiencies due to poor diet (or a lack of a diet at all), lack of anyone ever communicating with them, etc., that from the beginning, there is a strong likelihood that this child will only go on to possibly procreate and spread and continue their sort of existence.

I do some pro bono work representing children who are victims of abuse or neglect with DHS while we're either trying to intervene and get their parents back on course to being stable human beings or to get the kids placed in permanent adoptive homes. Some of those kids will be success stories, some are already tragedies. Many children who should find their way into the system never do.

The culture of poverty is not some moralistic, high-horse, elitist world view I hold. It's a real thing which continues to repeat itself from generation to generation. When we're sending folks to prison for violence or drugs, we're treating symptoms and not the disease. Until we start treating the disease, this problem will only get worse.

[okie52]

Hitler called, he says he thinks you're on to something.

I keed! I keed!

Poverty is an inevitability. Having them all spayed and neutered isn't going to change the fact that you're going to have poor, uneducated people as part of your society. It's part of the socio-economic evolutionary crawl that cultures must go through.

Poverty will always be a reality although the description of poverty has certainly changed over the years.

Recognizing that poverty exists doesn't require state sanctioned and tax payer funded breeding farms.

[KantoSooner]

I was thinking about different societies and how they handle those who really can't/won't help themselves; and this is one area where tribal/hunter-gatherer societies really have it way over us.
In such societies, an incompetent person was essentially taken under the wing of one or more adults who basically told them what to do. It could be oppressive or exploitative, I'm sure, but it could also be loving and sheltering. And such arrangements survived until very recently. How many of us Okies remember either the reality or the stories of the uncle or cousin who lived in the 'little house' or in the barn and did what the man and woman of the house told him to and basically had his needs taken care of? I'm sure it wasn't just my family who had incompetent relatives who were taken in.

I really don't think we're goiin to get to a day where such people no longer exist. So we better have some way to handle them. The best way, in my view, is through the family. But the family deserves some credit/support for taking on what would otherwise become a societal burden. (at the bare minimum, society would have to put a bullet into them or cart the bodies off to a potters field).

Even this Libertarian has no problems with putting some basic societal needs ahead of his own whims and perfect freedom. It should not be too hard.

[Midtowner]

I think you overestimate the efficacy of a "family" solution in places where generational poverty and incompetence span multiple generations. I would almost favor the Spartan way of handling those who won't benefit the society at large (I kid).

At any rate, continuing to pay them money and allow them to fester isn't doing our country any favors. It's hardly an existential threat, but it could be over time.

[JohnnyMack]

Yes, in any society, there is poverty. If nothing else because some people will be relatively poor than others. I'm not talking about poverty per se, but the culture associated therewith. Really, if you haven't stood at a gas station in "that" part of town and had someone offer to sell you a rock of crystal meth while a gang of hoodlums begins to approach your vehicle with ill intent, you really don't understand the different sort of world some people live in.

Growing up, you were probably taught that an education, working your kiester off and getting a good job would make you successful. We're talking about folks who grew up as children being raised either by a guardian who saw their physical presence as a means to a government check, or folks who grew up scavenging for themselves. These are folks who grew up not understanding structure, hard work or understanding how to be upwardly mobile in society. By the time they even make it to grade school, they've been starved, probably have a number of mental deficiencies due to poor diet (or a lack of a diet at all), lack of anyone ever communicating with them, etc., that from the beginning, there is a strong likelihood that this child will only go on to possibly procreate and spread and continue their sort of existence.

I do some pro bono work representing children who are victims of abuse or neglect with DHS while we're either trying to intervene and get their parents back on course to being stable human beings or to get the kids placed in permanent adoptive homes. Some of those kids will be success stories, some are already tragedies. Many children who should find their way into the system never do.

The culture of poverty is not some moralistic, high-horse, elitist world view I hold. It's a real thing which continues to repeat itself from generation to generation. When we're sending folks to prison for violence or drugs, we're treating symptoms and not the disease. Until we start treating the disease, this problem will only get worse.

In the Five Points neighborhood of New York in 1842 there existed a culture that would make your gas stations thugs look like a bunch of ball-less oompa loompas.

I'm not at all trying to be dismissive about it, because it's a legitimate tragedy. It's horrible that children are born into and raised in poverty. And without trying to sound condescending I do applaud your work, I spent a brief time with CASA in Cleveland County right after I got out of school and I know it's a heartbreaking world, but I don't have a good answer as to how humanity eliminates poverty.

[Midtowner]

In the Five Points neighborhood of New York in 1842 there existed a culture that would make your gas stations thugs look like a bunch of ball-less oompa loompas.

I'm not at all trying to be dismissive about it, because it's a legitimate tragedy. It's horrible that children are born into and raised in poverty. And without trying to sound condescending I do applaud your work, I spent a brief time with CASA in Cleveland County right after I got out of school and I know it's a heartbreaking world, but I don't have a good answer as to how humanity eliminates poverty.

Bringing fewer would-be feral children into the world would be a start. We're never going to totally eliminate idiots, but we can endeavor to make them a rarity. There will always be addiction and abuse and just abject stupidty. There's no total solution. I'm just positive there's a better way to reduce this problem than what we're doing now.

[Soonerjeepman]

believe it or not, this "rightie" might vote for sterilization for welfare recipients. Seen the abuse of the system for 23 yrs. I totally understand that there are things in one's life that allow them to make bad decisions, and suffer the consequences for a long time. They do not have the resources (knowledge, money, family support) to cure their ills. God be with them.

[JohnnyMack]

Can you imagine being the Congressman to bring this up on the floor of the House? Can you imagine the sh1tstorm that would ensue? LOL. I giggle just thinking about how fast you'd get booted out of Congress for even suggesting it.

[okie52]

Can you imagine a congressman bringing up legalizing gay marriage just 2-3 decades ago on the floor of the house?

[SoonerorLater]

Sterilization? I never thought I could ever agree with anything JohnnyMack posted but to view something like this as a solution to poverty is, I'm looking for the right word here, ghastly. In my favorite reference manual it says the poor will always be with us. Empirical evidence would tell me that is true. It's true because the root cause of poverty in a free society (being generous to the USA here) is almost always heath related or poor life decisions and sometimes those two things overlap.

We are trying to solve a problem at the collective level that exists at the individual level. We need to quit throwing money down the poverty rat hole. It will never work.

[okie52]

You do know that many that are on welfare look at another kid as "more welfare money"? It won't end poverty but it will reduce the number of dependents on the welfare system.

[KantoSooner]

I think you overestimate the efficacy of a "family" solution in places where generational poverty and incompetence span multiple generations. I would almost favor the Spartan way of handling those who won't benefit the society at large (I kid).

At any rate, continuing to pay them money and allow them to fester isn't doing our country any favors. It's hardly an existential threat, but it could be over time.

Of course I do. But any solution will have to be based on a life-long mentor-ship model: a certain quantum of these folks will never be able to manage well on their own. And that's going to require a rethink to how we live as a society.

[SicEmBaylor]

believe it or not, this "rightie" might vote for sterilization for welfare recipients. Seen the abuse of the system for 23 yrs. I totally understand that there are things in one's life that allow them to make bad decisions, and suffer the consequences for a long time. They do not have the resources (knowledge, money, family support) to cure their ills. God be with them.
I hope you're joking.

[cleller]

Sterilization wouldn't bother me, but its been demonized too much already from previous usage on incompetents, etc.

Probably the best hope is just to get the kids away from unfit, irresponsible parents. That's why I feel orphanages/adoptions would be a better environment for some of these kids. Not mandatory, just let the truth be known that our country can't afford to pay people to have kids they cannot support.

[Midtowner]

Sterilization wouldn't bother me, but its been demonized too much already from previous usage on incompetents, etc.

Probably the best hope is just to get the kids away from unfit, irresponsible parents. That's why I feel orphanages/adoptions would be a better environment for some of these kids. Not mandatory, just let the truth be known that our country can't afford to pay people to have kids they cannot support.

We're already doing that. Trouble is, that system is so underfunded, that they have to rely greatly on volunteers (CASA) to investigate things for them and volunteer attorneys (Oklahoma Lawyers for Children) to represent the children in many cases. How horribly screwed up is that? Our juveniles require volunteers because the state won't pay what it needs to to run a proper system. I mean I enjoy what I do very much, but I don't have very much time to devote to it. There are gentlemen like former judge Tom Kite who probably do a volunteer case every single day, but Christ, any time I hear a state Republican talking about taxcuts, I want to grab the dope by the ear and drag him his (or her) stupid *** to the juvenile justice center and ask whether they should do with less money.

[East Coast Bias]

Maybe I am too altruistic by nature, do we really want to go back to being cave-men? When the family members (the old-probably, over 30?) could not keep up they were left behind for the animals.
I am surprised the teachers among us haven't spoke to the value of education as a means to combat poverty? I am sure some people are happy to live with poverty if it means doing nothing, but a lot of people strive to rise above this.
I know this is a rough crowd, but what is suggested here takes us back pretty far....

[okie52]

Reducing Baby factories on the government tit isnt a bad concept at all....you could even have them get contraceptive shots that last for 6 months if vasectomies or tubals seem inhumane.

I can't really fathom someone being in favor of people on welfare having babies they can't pay for.

[JohnnyMack]

Reducing Baby factories on the government tit isnt a bad concept at all....you could even have them get contraceptive shots that last for 6 months if vasectomies or tubals seem inhumane.

I can't really fathom someone being in favor of people on welfare having babies they can't pay for.

Ahhh the great conundrum of the GOP platform. Anti-birth control. Anti-abortion. Anti-welfare.

[okie52]

Not very logical on their part at all.

[LiveLaughLove]

Ahhh the great conundrum of the GOP platform. Anti-birth control. Anti-abortion. Anti-welfare.

I need another shower.

You soak up too much liberal sunshine.

I didn't hear anyone in the GOP say they were against contraceptives. I know the Catholic church is, but I never heard any republican say the Catholic church represented their view.

I did hear them say they opposed the taxpayers PAYING for them. Only in liberal bizarro world does that mean they oppose them.

We don't pay for peoples lawn care as society, but I don't think it means a oppose people taking care of their lawns. We don't pay for women to get their nails done, but hardly oppose women having pretty hands.

Reboot and try again, your system seems to have some faulty ram.

[Chuck Bao]

I need another shower.

You soak up too much liberal sunshine.

I didn't hear anyone in the GOP say they were against contraceptives. I know the Catholic church is, but I never heard any republican say the Catholic church represented their view.

I did hear them say they opposed the taxpayers PAYING for them. Only in liberal bizarro world does that mean they oppose them.

We don't pay for peoples lawn care as society, but I don't think it means a oppose people taking care of their lawns. We don't pay for women to get their nails done, but hardly oppose women having pretty hands.

Reboot and try again, your system seems to have some faulty ram.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the private insurance companies already said that they'd rather pay for the contraceptives rather than pregnancies. It is just the religious folks who got all hot and bothered about it or those trying to make something else out of it - lawns, nails, whatever next.

[LiveLaughLove]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the private insurance companies already said that they'd rather pay for the contraceptives rather than pregnancies. It is just the religious folks who got all hot and bothered about it or those trying to make something else out of it - lawns, nails, whatever next.

Ok. You're wrong.

Next.

[JohnnyMack]

I need another shower.

You soak up too much liberal sunshine.

I didn't hear anyone in the GOP say they were against contraceptives. I know the Catholic church is, but I never heard any republican say the Catholic church represented their view.

I did hear them say they opposed the taxpayers PAYING for them. Only in liberal bizarro world does that mean they oppose them.

We don't pay for peoples lawn care as society, but I don't think it means a oppose people taking care of their lawns. We don't pay for women to get their nails done, but hardly oppose women having pretty hands.

Reboot and try again, your system seems to have some faulty ram.

You're right. The GOP platform is just so lucid and relatable. It's why you keep winning presidential elections.

[jkjsooner]

True. But the Boston Tea Party is a rather lame example of "terrorism," being basically bloodless and all. Mainly it's a bad example because it wasn't even meant to "terrify," was it?

I agree it was a poor example but I suspect some of the outrage is misguided. I suspect the point wasn't to villify those involved in the Boston Tea Party nor justify terrorism but to make students look at the use of the word terrorism with a skeptical eye.

Afterall, our own government called any and every insurgent act against our armed forced in Iraq as terrorism. I don't like insurgents who kill our military and there sure are a lot of legitimate terrorists acts in Iraq but calling someone who is resisting our military as terrorists cheapens the power of the term.

[jkjsooner]

Another great example of the victors writing the history -- Sherman was a war criminal yet he's treated as a hero.

Did we have rules of war at that time? If not, how could he be a war criminal?

[SicEmBaylor]

Did we have rules of war at that time? If not, how could he be a war criminal?

Actually, yes there were. The commandant of Andersonville was tried and executed for war crimes and that was a mostly unavoidable situation on his part.

The great tragedy of that war, besides losing it, was never getting to see Sherman, Sheridan, Grant, Lincoln, and Stanton tried for war crimes followed by the appropriate punishment.

Getting back to the topic at hand though...

What people have to realize is that terrorism is non-ideological. It can be justified depending on the purpose for which it is used. Many times, terrorism is the only tactic available against a much stronger enemy which was the case during the Revolution. Our colonial forefathers did a lot of things that would be appalling to us, but we should be glad they did it.

JM is absolutely right. It a phenomenal exercise to approach history from different points of view in order to get a richer view of the time period and put things into a proper historical context. The reason so many people are bitching about this is another symptom of the fact that conservatives hate, are distrustful of, and often malign academics. Any intellectual curiosity is cause for the rabble to scream "witch!" and start throwing rocks at you. It's sad, pitiful, and contributing to an ignorant society.

[StoopTroup]

Ok. You're wrong.

Next.


Well....at least that's settled. ROTF