Oh The Irony of It All

[PalmBeachSooner]

Remember how we bitched and moaned because Brent always seemed to favor LBers over DBs and we were gettng torchd in the passing game? Now we are bitching and moaning about Mike's love affair with DBs and getting torched in the run game. We've probably given up over 600 rushing yards the past twogames with that 6 and 7 DB scheme?

In either case, LBers or DBs, a good coach will game plan to take advantage of it.

The bottom line is you have to be balanced on defense as well. Over compensating leads to bad things.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

710 yards the last 2 games I believe.

[Seamus]

To be fair, neither coach was working with a great DL.

[PujolsFan]

To be fair, neither coach was working with a great DL.

I was wondering if this was the case, or if our DL was getting held all night w/no calls? Perhaps a bit of both... :\

[OU_Sooners75]

Let's be fair here.

OP you're right. Both favor a certain group over the other. But neither coach has had a DL to work with. And now Mike doesn't have the LBs that really fit his system. Stoops system works best with LBs that can take on blocks and fill a gap without getting blown away by a lineman.

Brent's system uses the LBs differently.

The problem with run defense is the Line. Not our secondary. OU needs a line that can dominate. We just have it. And until OU has that, the defense will suspetible to the run.

[goingoneight]

I don't remember the 2005 and 2006 lines being dominant. For whatever reason, OU can't stop the run. It was pretty evident from the beginning of the year. Why Texas, Tech and any other decent team we've played didn't emphasize a run game is beyond me.

[SoonerMarkVA]

I was wondering if this was the case, or if our DL was getting held all night w/no calls? Perhaps a bit of both... :\

They were definitely getting held all night. Then again, I don't remember a single holding call on either team. So, if you say the refs were oblivious to holding, which they seemed to be, you can at least say they were truly oblivious and not biased.

[OkieThunderLion]

That is why they were such a great combo. They neutralized each other's extreme tendencies.

Both GREAT position coaches. Neither have had great (the same) success w/o the other.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Can we step back a second here?

1. You are ripping the scheme even though there was a guy in position on every single run to make the play.
2. The problem isn't that the defender whiffed on the tackle, it was that it was a DB and not a LB.
3. The fact that the person whiffing on the tackle was the BEST PLAYER WE HAVE on D is not mentioned.

There are some good points in this thread, but none of them have anything to do with the fact that every single person in this thread would have taken the following bet:

Tony Jefferson vs WV RB Dude - Open field less than 4 yards separation, he will tackle the guy 10% of the time.

That didn't happen, TJ was 1 for 13 by my count.

Having a better DL would have helped on the inside zone plays. Having linebackers on the field would have resulted in even more spectacular feats of fail. The scheme did exactly what it was designed to do -> free up Jefferson to stop the running back one on one.

[JohnnyMack]

Having linebackers on the field would have resulted in even more spectacular feats of fail.

LULZ. Yeah, it was a comedy.

[cvsooner]

I'm with JKM on this one. We simply had no answer. When our single best defender, who has displayed over three years excellent one on one tackling...in fact, maybe the best tackler we have, was getting torched, it was due to be a long night. Let us not forget, Austin was second in the nation in all purpose yards before this game, and was averaging 10 receptions per game, which leads the nation. (And Bailey was number four in the nation in receptions per game.)

We simply did not play well on D on Saturday, and they did on O. Nothing we were doing was working all that well in certain situations. And yet, ironically, we got a couple of stops (like a two-point conversion) that wound up being key. Also, we had several drives on offense that stalled, especially late in the second half and in the third quarter...if we had scored on pace with the rest of the game, we'd have won by 20 points or so.

Let's just say I'm REALLY glad Smith, Austin and Bailey are all seniors.

[OU_Sooners75]

Can we step back a second here?

1. You are ripping the scheme even though there was a guy in position on every single run to make the play.
2. The problem isn't that the defender whiffed on the tackle, it was that it was a DB and not a LB.
3. The fact that the person whiffing on the tackle was the BEST PLAYER WE HAVE on D is not mentioned.

There are some good points in this thread, but none of them have anything to do with the fact that every single person in this thread would have taken the following bet:

Tony Jefferson vs WV RB Dude - Open field less than 4 yards separation, he will tackle the guy 10% of the time.

That didn't happen, TJ was 1 for 13 by my count.

Having a better DL would have helped on the inside zone plays. Having linebackers on the field would have resulted in even more spectacular feats of fail. The scheme did exactly what it was designed to do -> free up Jefferson to stop the running back one on one.

Come on jkm. Usually I agree with a lot of what you post. But this is total BS and you know it.

1. If OU has a solid run defending line and linebackers, WVU would never had lined Austin in the backfield to begin with. They would not have risked him getting pounded by a run stuffing defense, PERIOD!

2. The reason Austin was in the backfield was because Holgerson saw what OUs defense is. Gap assignment. And so he schemed a gameplan to hit the outside with speed. He gets passed the first level, he is in the open field. Where btw, OU is stubbornly playing man to man. So he gets passed the first llevel, with the dbs being ran off by playing man, he has essentially no one around him for 15 or so yards.

3. When OU had a defender in position to make a play, they rarely missed when within the line of scrimmage. They miss when he was full speed and he had plenty of room. And there were at least 5 times where a guy was in position to ake a play only to be blocked in the back or tackled by the offense (which is holding). The penalties were never called. Had they been, he wouldn't have had such success.

4. Had we been able to stuff him and make adjustments to it, WVU would have stopped susing Austin as much out of the backfield.

Now, there were missed tackles. But with the man coverage, and WVU running streaks on their run plays, Austin very rarely had to contend with the defense. Had the refs called penalties that effected the play, then he wouldn't have had 344 yards rushing. Also had Stoops worked some zone in his scheme, the running game of Austin would not have been so successful.

It was a complete failure by everyone. Failure to make the proper adjustments. Failure by the DL to be run stoppers. Failure by the dbs to open field tackle better. And a failure by the refs to make the proper calls.

[PalmBeachSooner]

To be fair, neither coach was working with a great DL.

That's my point. BV compensated for a weak DL with LBers and MS is doing the same with DBs.

[PalmBeachSooner]

Can we step back a second here?

1. You are ripping the scheme even though there was a guy in position on every single run to make the play.
2. The problem isn't that the defender whiffed on the tackle, it was that it was a DB and not a LB.
3. The fact that the person whiffing on the tackle was the BEST PLAYER WE HAVE on D is not mentioned.

There are some good points in this thread, but none of them have anything to do with the fact that every single person in this thread would have taken the following bet:

Tony Jefferson vs WV RB Dude - Open field less than 4 yards separation, he will tackle the guy 10% of the time.

That didn't happen, TJ was 1 for 13 by my count.

Having a better DL would have helped on the inside zone plays. Having linebackers on the field would have resulted in even more spectacular feats of fail. The scheme did exactly what it was designed to do -> free up Jefferson to stop the running back one on one.

I'm not ripping the scheme. I just think it's ironic that during the last couple of seasons with BV people were screaming for DBs in certain situations. Now we are screaming for more LBs.

[8timechamps]

The scariest part in all of this is that Mike feels he has to use this scheme because we don't have the talent in the front 7 to really defend a high power offense. He must feel like he can't rely on the linebackers to play (and cover) third or fourth wide receivers and stop the run. He can't have faith that a four man line is enough to get pressure on the QB and allow him to make some riskier calls behind them.

The fact of the matter is we were able to play 8 games before being exposed up front. I'm just hoping he can keep it together with spit and duct tape for three more games.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

1. If OU has a solid run defending line and linebackers, WVU would never had lined Austin in the backfield to begin with. They would not have risked him getting pounded by a run stuffing defense, PERIOD!

Yes, you are correct. The problem is that this is a panacea argument. Its like saying if we had 11 future pro bowlers on defense, we'd be good defensively. In reality, we haven't had what you are talking about for the last 7 years. Heck in the ENTIRE Stoops era we've only had BOTH a good run defending line and good linebackers ONCE - 2003. Every other year we've had a couple of pieces but never a complete unit as you've described.


2. The reason Austin was in the backfield was because Holgerson saw what OUs defense is. Gap assignment. And so he schemed a gameplan to hit the outside with speed. He gets passed the first level, he is in the open field. Where btw, OU is stubbornly playing man to man. So he gets passed the first llevel, with the dbs being ran off by playing man, he has essentially no one around him for 15 or so yards.

He didn't necessarily gameplan to hit the outside with speed, he gameplanned to leave one guy in the hole unblocked knowing that Austin could make 1 person miss. On most of his run plays there were missed tackles at the LOS (if you are within 3 yards of the ballcarrier you miss that tackle even if you don't touch him). Like I said, it was eerily similar to what we did in this game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7B8LZG12E . We left that Texas linebacker unblocked in the hole all game long and Q just abused him.

As for the man to man argument, we went through this last year and I can resurrect those threads if you like. In them, I stated that going purely man to man would kill us against running QBs and elusive running backs. You were one of the main "We need to run man guys". There isn't enough practice time in college football to run both man and zone. You pick your poison and you run with it.

As an aside, we've only had one linebacker in forever who could handle a guy like Austin -> Rufus Alexander. That kid could put a hat on an elusive guy like nobody's business.


3. When OU had a defender in position to make a play, they rarely missed when within the line of scrimmage. They miss when he was full speed and he had plenty of room. And there were at least 5 times where a guy was in position to ake a play only to be blocked in the back or tackled by the offense (which is holding). The penalties were never called. Had they been, he wouldn't have had such success.

I think you need to go back and look at it again. I consider having 3 players within 5 yards of the ball carrier when he runs right through them as being in position to make the play. We didn't have much success getting off blocks to stop him (call it holding whatever, you still have to make the play). I mean that one TD run he had we had 2 guys in their backfield(harris and hurst) that got juked so hard they looked like wax figurines. After that, our guys couldn't tackle ANYONE. We were missing tackles on their big slow tight end for cripes sake.

I do agree with point 4.

The one thing that I think both of us can agree on is that this year's team doesn't gang tackle. We seem to have a lot of tackles where the one OU defender making the stop is the only one on the camera screen. When you go back and look at 2000-2002 you normally see 3-4 OU players hitting the guy or immediately jumping over the pile.

[trpltongue]

The one thing that I think both of us can agree on is that this year's team doesn't gang tackle. We seem to have a lot of tackles where the one OU defender making the stop is the only one on the camera screen. When you go back and look at 2000-2002 you normally see 3-4 OU players hitting the guy or immediately jumping over the pile.

That's pretty much a direct consequence of running man coverage. I'm not saying we should run zone primarily, but at least mix it in when their running back is torching you. Of course, with our weak DL if we run zone there's a very good chance that the receivers will have plenty of time to sit into soft spots so I guess you just have to pick your poison and hope that you can make some plays.

I think the even more troubling thing is that when we do bring pressure, it's almost always ineffective (again because of our weak D-line). The O-line is able to go man to man with our D-line so even when we blitz a corner or safety, there is still an O-lineman and a running back or TE to protect the QB from the blitz. Unless there is a mental breakdown by the O-line our blitzes are completey useless because of the ineffectiveness of our DL to occupy O-lineman.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

The problem with the scheme is that even though there was no linebackers on the field, someone has to take up their responsibilities..In this formation, it was the safeties..On the 75 yard 3rd quarter run, Colvin blitzes who is picked up by a LT and that means the guy with LB duties is now getting a clean block from a WR...Javon Harris reacts extremely late, takes a bad angle, and there you go..In a defense that is struggling to tackle, you can't put a formation out there and blitz from it so that the ball carrier doesn't have to make a single move until 20 yards down field.

The scouts that were at the iowa state game brought up a weakness in TJs game and I thought no one all season would exploit it...Well, someone did..

[stoops the eternal pimp]

And exactly WTF is Tim Kish doing in coaches meetings.." Well guys, I can't play anyone again this week either."

[Sooner in Tampa]

And exactly WTF is Tim Kish doing in coaches meetings.." Well guys, I can't play anyone again this week either."
I have to say that I am NOT at all impressed with Kish's ability to coach LB's. IMHO, Wort has taken a step back

[Tear Down This Wall]

Tavon Austin Rushing 2012
Date Opp
9/1/2012 Marshall: 3 rushes - 66 yards - 22.0 avg - 0 TD - 70 Long
9/15/2012 James Madison: 1 - 14 - 14.0 - 0 - 14
9/22/2012 Maryland: 2 - 4 - 2.0 - 0 - 6
9/29/2012 Baylor: No rushing attempts
10/6/2012 @ Texas: 1 - 6 - 6.0 - 0 - 6
10/13/2012 @ Texas Tech: 1 - 0 - 0.0 - 0 - 0
10/20/2012 Kansas State: No Rushing Attempts
11/3/2012 TCU: 1 - (-1) - (-1.0) - 0 - 0
11/10/2012 @ Oklahoma State: 5 - 14 - 2.8 - 0 - 8
11/17/2012 Oklahoma: 21 - 344 - 16.4 - 2 - 74

So, this wide receiver ran all over us and no one else...oh yeah, Marshall. This is a great defensive scheme we're committed to playing.

Between Marshall and our game, they guy had run 11 times for 37 yards. Wow...what an amazing specimen of an athlete he was. How was this guy not in the Heisman race? Oklahoma State had him figured out, but us...?

Hopefully, we won't play any more teams with good defenses so Landry can keep having near perfect games and our offense can just outscore everyone.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Remember how we bitched and moaned because Brent always seemed to favor LBers over DBs and we were gettng torchd in the passing game? Now we are bitching and moaning about Mike's love affair with DBs and getting torched in the run game. We've probably given up over 600 rushing yards the past twogames with that 6 and 7 DB scheme?

In either case, LBers or DBs, a good coach will game plan to take advantage of it.

The bottom line is you have to be balanced on defense as well. Over compensating leads to bad things.

The difference is, OU hasn't lost because of the defense this season under Mike Stoops unlike last season with Brent Venables and previous years. What would the difference be this season if Brent Venables was still here? Oklahoma would have lost to Texas Tech in Lubbock for the n straight time and OU would have lost to Baylor in back to back seasons. You should be damn appreciative that Mike Stoops is back. And he will eventually undo the damage here that Brent Venables did in recruiting or lackthereof. Come talk to us when OU loses a game because of the Sooner defense.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

Tavon Austin Rushing 2012
Date Opp
9/1/2012 Marshall: 3 rushes - 66 yards - 22.0 avg - 0 TD - 70 Long
9/15/2012 James Madison: 1 - 14 - 14.0 - 0 - 14
9/22/2012 Maryland: 2 - 4 - 2.0 - 0 - 6
9/29/2012 Baylor: No rushing attempts
10/6/2012 @ Texas: 1 - 6 - 6.0 - 0 - 6
10/13/2012 @ Texas Tech: 1 - 0 - 0.0 - 0 - 0
10/20/2012 Kansas State: No Rushing Attempts
11/3/2012 TCU: 1 - (-1) - (-1.0) - 0 - 0
11/10/2012 @ Oklahoma State: 5 - 14 - 2.8 - 0 - 8
11/17/2012 Oklahoma: 21 - 344 - 16.4 - 2 - 74

So, this wide receiver ran all over us and no one else...oh yeah, Marshall. This is a great defensive scheme we're committed to playing.

Between Marshall and our game, they guy had run 11 times for 37 yards. Wow...what an amazing specimen of an athlete he was. How was this guy not in the Heisman race? Oklahoma State had him figured out, but us...?

Hopefully, we won't play any more teams with good defenses so Landry can keep having near perfect games and our offense can just outscore everyone.

Tavon Marshall wasn't lined up as an actual running back in those games. You can have rushing attempts without ever being lined up as a running back. I know you don't know that based on prior posts, but now you do.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

That is why they were such a great combo. They neutralized each other's extreme tendencies.

Both GREAT position coaches. Neither have had great (the same) success w/o the other.

That is absolute speculation. Everyone is knee jerk reacting after two bad games in which Oklahoma WON. Something that didn't happen when Venables was coaching the defense last season and he had Ronnell Lewis, Frank Alexander and Travis Lewis. Mike Stoops is working with the worst defensive line and linebacking corps (when they are used) in several decades at Oklahoma from a talent standpoint and despite that, the Sooners have only given up one 300 yard passing game, which is extremely impressive in the pass happy Big 12. The run game will be stopped effectively when Oklahoma is at least fielding something resembling a competent defensive front.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

That is absolute speculation. Everyone is knee jerk reacting after two bad games in which Oklahoma WON. Something that didn't happen when Venables was coaching the defense last season and he had Ronnell Lewis, Frank Alexander and Travis Lewis. Mike Stoops is working with the worst defensive line and linebacking corps (when they are used) in several decades at Oklahoma from a talent standpoint and despite that, the Sooners have only given up one 300 yard passing game, which is extremely impressive in the pass happy Big 12. The run game will be stopped effectively when Oklahoma is at least fielding something resembling a competent defensive front.

Gah, using Travis Lewis as an example both reinforces and negates your point.

negation - his lack of hustle made him arguably worse than this year's linebackers.
reinforce - the fact that BV played him anyway

Personally, I think even FA would have struggled this year with having so many run stop duties. Our fans tend to underappreciate guys like Ndulae who are assignment sound and good against the run.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Personally, I think even FA would have struggled this year with having so many run stop duties. Our fans tend to underappreciate guys like Ndulae who are assignment sound and good against the run.

dear lowered, this...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

That's pretty much a direct consequence of running man coverage. I'm not saying we should run zone primarily, but at least mix it in when their running back is torching you. Of course, with our weak DL if we run zone there's a very good chance that the receivers will have plenty of time to sit into soft spots so I guess you just have to pick your poison and hope that you can make some plays.

One thing I absolutely wish that EA would add to NCAA Football 20XX is a "skill" rating when you choose a defense. You see, if you are primarily a Cover 4 team, then if you switch to Cover 1, your efficiency is degraded by 75%. This would help to eliminate the "just change your defense" crowd from thinking it was easy.

College Football is about precision. It isn't good enough to play perfect defense 62 out of 80 opposing plays if they get a TD on the plays where you fail. Thus you have to practice something 1,000s of times to make sure that you get your assignments correct 79 out of 80 plays. Practicing something a 1000 of times takes around a 100 hours of practice time. You are allowed 15 hours of practice time (including film meetings) a week during the season and a grand total of 45 hours of practice time from your last game til August 1st. In that time you have to increase the individual skill of players at different levels (both athletically and physically), teach them the scheme and have them rehearse that scheme 1000s of times.

[SoonerAtKU]

I thought they had a Man Coverage and Zone Coverage stat for DBs at some point. It's maybe not the most elegant solution, but having to recruit talent in one over the other might do some of what you're asking.

[cvsooner]

Gah, using Travis Lewis as an example both reinforces and negates your point.

negation - his lack of hustle made him arguably worse than this year's linebackers.
reinforce - the fact that BV played him anyway

Personally, I think even FA would have struggled this year with having so many run stop duties. Our fans tend to underappreciate guys like Ndulae who are assignment sound and good against the run.

And anybody can get burnt. I was rewatching the game last night and there's one play where Ndulue gets into the backfield and has a great chance to tackle Austin. Unfortunately he goes after Smith who has just handed the ball off....

[8timechamps]

That is absolute speculation. Everyone is knee jerk reacting after two bad games in which Oklahoma WON. Something that didn't happen when Venables was coaching the defense last season and he had Ronnell Lewis, Frank Alexander and Travis Lewis. Mike Stoops is working with the worst defensive line and linebacking corps (when they are used) in several decades at Oklahoma from a talent standpoint and despite that, the Sooners have only given up one 300 yard passing game, which is extremely impressive in the pass happy Big 12. The run game will be stopped effectively when Oklahoma is at least fielding something resembling a competent defensive front.

The exact same thing could be said about the situation earlier in the year. Some folks talked about how much better Mike was than Brent, and it was "clearly being proven".

The truth is, Mike didn't put together a very good gameplan (which he admitted), and the few times players were in position, they missed tackles. Anyone that thinks the defensive performance of the past two weeks is leading to a complete defensive meltdown just doesn't know too much about football.

[trpltongue]

College Football is about precision. It isn't good enough to play perfect defense 62 out of 80 opposing plays if they get a TD on the plays where you fail. Thus you have to practice something 1,000s of times to make sure that you get your assignments correct 79 out of 80 plays. Practicing something a 1000 of times takes around a 100 hours of practice time. You are allowed 15 hours of practice time (including film meetings) a week during the season and a grand total of 45 hours of practice time from your last game til August 1st. In that time you have to increase the individual skill of players at different levels (both athletically and physically), teach them the scheme and have them rehearse that scheme 1000s of times.

That is absolutely true about repetition and limited practice time. I also don't mind that we're a man coverage team, especially in the big 12. And I'll even give Mike a pass for a year or 2 as he has to design a completely different defense and teach the players everything about it. However, it is not inconceivable to play a limited zone and man defense. Obviously you have to pick 1 or the other as your primary, but there have been plenty of times in the past where we have switched back and forth from zone to man during the game. Look at some of the other defensive wrinkles we have added in with the "Roy" backer, the "spinner", etc. It can certainly be done to great effect if you have the athletes and time to practice it. Heck, a lot of the backfield motion is designed to alert the QB as to whether the defense is in zone or man coverage for a given play.

I truly hope that this year is just a function of the players having to learn a completely new defense and not having any additional time to add the other "wrinkles" that are necessary to compensate for deficiencies in our current man scheme.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

That is absolutely true about repetition and limited practice time. I also don't mind that we're a man coverage team, especially in the big 12. And I'll even give Mike a pass for a year or 2 as he has to design a completely different defense and teach the players everything about it. However, it is not inconceivable to play a limited zone and man defense. Obviously you have to pick 1 or the other as your primary, but there have been plenty of times in the past where we have switched back and forth from zone to man during the game. Look at some of the other defensive wrinkles we have added in with the "Roy" backer, the "spinner", etc. It can certainly be done to great effect if you have the athletes and time to practice it. Heck, a lot of the backfield motion is designed to alert the QB as to whether the defense is in zone or man coverage for a given play.

I truly hope that this year is just a function of the players having to learn a completely new defense and not having any additional time to add the other "wrinkles" that are necessary to compensate for deficiencies in our current man scheme.

We ARE playing "limited zone". That is why you see our corners having safety help over the top. It is why our safeties have been at the LOS all season long in run support. Where it got us in trouble against WVU was that the safeties couldn't make the play and the corners had been RUNNOFT.

[champions77]

To be fair, neither coach was working with a great DL.

Don't look now but the front seven won't be as good next year. Where has our d lineman recruiting gone?

[Tear Down This Wall]

Tavon Marshall wasn't lined up as an actual running back in those games. You can have rushing attempts without ever being lined up as a running back. I know you don't know that based on prior posts, but now you do.

Oh, that makes it better. No misdirection/reverses. WVU just lined up and pounded us.

Boy is WVU's coaching staff stupid. This guy would have run for 3,000 yard a season had they just played him at RB instead of WR.

Still proof that our run defense is dick.

[OU_Sooners75]

Don't look now but the front seven won't be as good next year. Where has our d lineman recruiting gone?

I have a sneaky suspection that next year the DL will be better than this year. Mainly thanks to some JUCOs that will likely be in Norman next.

I will be very surprised if Toby Johnson doesn't come to OU. And since Tenn fired Dooley, he and his Team mate at Hutchinson CC (Ben Bradley) is going to be in Norman this weekend. Toby has been talking to Ben about OU and Jackie Shipp. And today OU offered Bradley.

[OU_Sooners75]

Double post

[HAMTTX]

I thought the guy was playing the position for the first time that night? Is that not correct? That would make any previous stat's irrelevant on how he played against OU.