FICA tax cut expiring..

[Soonerjeepman]

so one of the taxes is the FICA. Should go up 2%, on 50K salary that is about $85 a month...thought we "middle classers" weren't getting a tax increase?

Considering I got a one time $100 stipend raise for the yr. Glad I refied...I'll be breaking even again.

[One4OU]

Its not a tax increase...the tax has always been there. You just got a reduces benefit from it for a while. When the reduced % was passed it also came with an ending date as well.

[badger]

We're all going to be paying more one way or another. Do what you can to cut costs now so you can brace for it then.

It's not an Obama versus Romney, Republican vs Democrat thing, either --- we've been borrowing against Social Security over many administrations for decades and now the old farts are retiring and want their benefits that they've paid into for years.

[Soonerjeepman]

I agree, I know it had an end date....but I guess from not paying it to paying it it's an increase...I think welfare, military (having a SMART efficient military is more important) are 2 off the top. Will MY benefits be there? not so sure.

[FaninAma]

Either raise the FICA tax or let Social Security go broke even faster.

[Sooner5030]

The cut should have never happened in the first place. Just another gimmick used to reschedule growth from the future.

[rock on sooner]

Either raise the FICA tax or let Social Security go broke even faster.

Fixing SS is easy and, imo, a no brainer, which means no one will do it.
Just raise the salary cap over a three to five year time frame to $180k-$185k,
with legislation preventing gov't "borrowing" from the trust fund. Number
crunchers two or three years back said that raising it to $140k would fix the
problem with 95% certainty. Just sayin'..

[FaninAma]

Fixing SS is easy and, imo, a no brainer, which means no one will do it.
Just raise the salary cap over a three to five year time frame to $180k-$185k,
with legislation preventing gov't "borrowing" from the trust fund. Number
crunchers two or three years back said that raising it to $140k would fix the
problem with 95% certainty. Just sayin'..

ROS, I wouldn't care how high they raise my FICA taxes IF they guaranteed that I or my family received every cent back that I paid in. Heck, I really don't even care that they don't pay interest on the money I contributed.

[rock on sooner]

ROS, I wouldn't care how high they raise my FICA taxes IF they guaranteed that I or my family received every cent back that I paid in. Heck, I really don't even care that they don't pay interest on the money I contributed.

FaninAma, if you look into how SS works, you'll see that most likely you
and your family will get back more than every cent you paid in...all kinds
of survivor benefits and different ways for your spouse and kids to continue
your benefits after you're gone.

The biggest problem with the SS Trust Fund is that the federal gov't has
used the fund as an interest free banker, to the tune of $2.6 trillion and
counting. That's why I advocate legislating idiot proof raiding of the fund
and it'd be there far into the future. But, (sigh), there aren't enough "warriors"
in Congress to fight that battle.

[SoonerorLater]

Fixing SS is easy and, imo, a no brainer, which means no one will do it.
Just raise the salary cap over a three to five year time frame to $180k-$185k,
with legislation preventing gov't "borrowing" from the trust fund. Number
crunchers two or three years back said that raising it to $140k would fix the
problem with 95% certainty. Just sayin'..

In theory it's a simple fix. In practice it would be a painful process because of demographics. What should have happened is when baby boomers started retiring they would have been paid out of a huge surplus. That surplus has been squandered on various government programs and replaced with IOUs. There really is no good solution at this point.

[Sooner5030]

In theory it's a simple fix. In practice it would be a painful process because of demographics. What should have happened is when baby boomers started retiring they would have been paid out of a huge surplus. That surplus has been squandered on various government programs and replaced with IOUs. There really is no good solution at this point.

that's the problem with our policies over the last 30 years. Trading the future for the here and now has resulted in very few options for our future.

If we go the austerity route then we risk getting in a feedback loop where recession results in tighter consumers which results in another recession......then tax revs will really dive.

There are very few options to consider: repudiation, structured default, or inflation.

[pphilfran]

Fixing SS is easy and, imo, a no brainer, which means no one will do it.
Just raise the salary cap over a three to five year time frame to $180k-$185k,
with legislation preventing gov't "borrowing" from the trust fund. Number
crunchers two or three years back said that raising it to $140k would fix the
problem with 95% certainty. Just sayin'..

I am for raising the cap but I also think we need to raise the age limit another couple of years...

I still think a limit of 140k would get the job done...

[pphilfran]

I would also do away with the special issue bonds where we pay interest to ourselves...

Move the bonds over to the private sector...high quality corp, city, and state bonds...the additional money chasing those bonds would reduce the interest rate on those bonds...making cities and states end up paying less for capital improvements...

[rock on sooner]

I am for raising the cap but I also think we need to raise the age limit another couple of years...

I still think a limit of 140k would get the job done...

One of the Pub candidates during the primaries, I can't remember which one,
offered raising the retirement age 2 months at a time over a time frame to get
the retirement age to 68, not a bad idea, but I think the cap should go higher
than $140k, maybe not the $180k I said earlier but $160k at least to take any
guess work out of it, PLUS idiot proof raiding legislation. Doing the age thing
and the cap thing at the same time would fix SS at least to the year 2100. And,
stop calling it "entitlement", cause everyone pays into it!

[pphilfran]

One of the Pub candidates during the primaries, I can't remember which one,
offered raising the retirement age 2 months at a time over a time frame to get
the retirement age to 68, not a bad idea, but I think the cap should go higher
than $140k, maybe not the $180k I said earlier but $160k at least to take any
guess work out of it, PLUS idiot proof raiding legislation. Doing the age thing
and the cap thing at the same time would fix SS at least to the year 2100. And,
stop calling it "entitlement", cause everyone pays into it!

For years I have been touting the couple of months every year till we get to 68 method...

I did some basic number crunching a couple of years ago and came up with a 140k limit would be good...but I could damn sure see where I was off by 10 or 20k....

I also think that once us Baby Boomers die off we could actually drop the salary limit and still be good going forward..

No thoughts on my moving money from the Special Issue bonds into the private sector?

Somebody else would be paying the interest...
It would lower the rate for cities, states, and corps giving a sort of stimulus...
Since we would be buying bonds outslde the fed government our "leadership" wouldn't have the ability to use the money since it would be in hands of the cities, states, and corps....we would only have their bonds...
Risk would be minimal...right now we pay ourselves the interest...so we are actually getting nothing on our money...if we had three percent failure per year in the bond market we could subsidize those losses and still be at the same point we are today where we pay interest to ourselves...

It is a no lose situation...

[One4OU]

They need to just get rid of the cap. Most people already pay it and for those who earn over the ceiling maybe drop the rate a couple of points but not totally stop the deduction.

Wasnt there talk years ago about letting people make their own investment choices vs payjng ss?

[pphilfran]

They need to just get rid of the cap. Most people already pay it and for those who earn over the ceiling maybe drop the rate a couple of points but not totally stop the deduction.

Wasnt there talk years ago about letting people make their own investment choices vs payjng ss?


You just can't remove the cap..

First, we don't need that much to make it viable...
Second, it is a defined benefit play...it would be criminal to have someone pay 60k a year so they could get 3 grand a month in benefits when they retire....

There was never anything that I know of that was going to stop payments into SS...only an idea to give each person a choice in how to invest their money and for each person to have an individual SS account...

I would support the individual accounts...but there are a couple of deep rooted problems...

1. When you divide up the money into the pphilfran and One4OU accounts there is nothing left to pay for the people currently drawing benefits...

2. You would have to limit the ways to invest..risk would need to be kept to a minimum or you risk the basic reason for SS...guaranteed income (small, but still guaranteed)

[SoonerorLater]

that's the problem with our policies over the last 30 years. Trading the future for the here and now has resulted in very few options for our future.

If we go the austerity route then we risk getting in a feedback loop where recession results in tighter consumers which results in another recession......then tax revs will really dive.

There are very few options to consider: repudiation, structured default, or inflation.

In my estimation none of those are viable options. Of course the we will try the soft default route through currency debasement but sooner or later (sooner probably) we will face the day of reckoning when the market says no more. We are partially there now.

[FaninAma]

FaninAma, if you look into how SS works, you'll see that most likely you
and your family will get back more than every cent you paid in...all kinds
of survivor benefits and different ways for your spouse and kids to continue
your benefits after you're gone

That is no longer the case. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/07/new-retirees-receiving-less-in-social-security-than-paid-in-marking-historic/

[yermom]

You just can't remove the cap..

First, we don't need that much to make it viable...
Second, it is a defined benefit play...it would be criminal to have someone pay 60k a year so they could get 3 grand a month in benefits when they retire....

There was never anything that I know of that was going to stop payments into SS...only an idea to give each person a choice in how to invest their money and for each person to have an individual SS account...

I would support the individual accounts...but there are a couple of deep rooted problems...

1. When you divide up the money into the pphilfran and One4OU accounts there is nothing left to pay for the people currently drawing benefits...

2. You would have to limit the ways to invest..risk would need to be kept to a minimum or you risk the basic reason for SS...guaranteed income (small, but still guaranteed)

removing the cap seems more fair than raising the age all the time

if the vast majority of people have to pay into it based on their entire income, why shouldn't everyone else?

[StoopTroup]

Like I've said for some time...it gets down to Me Me Me....

Seriously? Get back every cent you pay?

[StoopTroup]

removing the cap seems more fair than raising the age all the time

if the vast majority of people have to pay into it based on their entire income, why shouldn't everyone else?

Because there is no God and this is my only shot to step on the spines of other Humans so I can live in a World where "How much money is enough?"...."A little bit more".

[yermom]

heh

[okie52]

removing the cap seems more fair than raising the age all the time

if the vast majority of people have to pay into it based on their entire income, why shouldn't everyone else?

Why not be able to raise the age...life expectancy continues to increase....it was about age 60 when SS was enacted and now it's around 82.

[pphilfran]

removing the cap seems more fair than raising the age all the time

if the vast majority of people have to pay into it based on their entire income, why shouldn't everyone else?

1. The people in the lower income levels get a much better "rate of return" for the money they pay into the system
2. The higher income people are already capped on the amount they receive...
3. To achieve 1. and 2. money is already taken from the higher earners and passed down to the lower earners
4. We don't need that much additional income to keep the plan solvent
5. Age expectancy has grown and we can expect it to climb higher in years to come....paying each beneficiary for a longer period of time only further stresses the system...
6. I could buy into lowering the overall percentage rate paid by each into the system and raising the limit higher...instead of 12.4% we could drop to 10% and extend the max to 200k (pulling that number out of my azz, something along those lines)

[pphilfran]

Like I've said for some time...it gets down to Me Me Me....

Seriously? Get back every cent you pay?


Hell yes....with compounding growth a well thought out system should be able to pay out more than each person contributed...

Only an idiot would think it is foolish for a person to expect to get at least 250k in benefit if you pay in 250k over an average lifetime....

[okie52]

Because there is no God and this is my only shot to step on the spines of other Humans so I can live in a World where "How much money is enough?"...."A little bit more".

Heartless bastards.

[pphilfran]

Heartless bastards.


WE already take something like 30% from the higher wage earners contributions and pass those down to the lower wage classes but that ain't ****ing enough...we want to take 100% of those upper contributions and distribute them to the lower wage earners..otherwise the SS defined benefit plan in corrupt and unfair...

[SoonerorLater]

Why not be able to raise the age...life expectancy continues to increase....it was about age 60 when SS was enacted and now it's around 82.

The problem with raising the age is, yes people are able to live longer through modern medicine but a 70 year old today isn't going to necessarily be in better shape to go to work then his counterpart 75 years ago. A lot of the increase in life expectancy is a decrease in infant mortality.

[pphilfran]

http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/benefit6.cgi

Bob, born 1/1/1950, earns 40k a year and starts drawing his benefit on 1/1/2015...Bob will draw $1717 per month
Tom, born 1/1/1950, earns 100k a year and starts drawing his benefit on 1/1/2015...Tom will draw $2961


So Tom paid in 150% more than Bob...yet only receives only about 70% more in benefit...but poor old Bob is getting screwed...

Numbers are in today's dollars...

[okie52]

WE already take something like 30% from the higher wage earners contributions and pass those down to the lower wage classes but that ain't ****ing enough...we want to take 100% of those upper contributions and distribute them to the lower wage earners..otherwise the SS defined benefit plan in corrupt and unfair...

You would step on the spines of human beings.

[pphilfran]

The problem with raising the age is, yes people are able to live longer through modern medicine but a 70 year old today isn't going to necessarily be in better shape to go to work then his counterpart 75 years ago. A lot of the increase in life expectancy is a decrease in infant mortality.

We are not talking about them working a decade longer...bump the age four months each year for the next six years so people wait two friggin years...if you wish to retire earlier save some additional money...

[okie52]

The problem with raising the age is, yes people are able to live longer through modern medicine but a 70 year old today isn't going to necessarily be in better shape to go to work then his counterpart 75 years ago. A lot of the increase in life expectancy is a decrease in infant mortality.

I'm sure infant mortality had something to do with life expectancy being much lower 70 plus years ago but people today are living substantially longer today than in the 1930s.

[okie52]

We are not talking about them working a decade longer...bump the age four months each year for the next six years so people wait two friggin years...if you wish to retire earlier save some additional money...

67-68 wouldn't hurt anyone. And how much have the benefits grown in the last 70 years?

[rock on sooner]

removing the cap seems more fair than raising the age all the time

if the vast majority of people have to pay into it based on their entire income, why shouldn't everyone else?

I maintain that the cap goes up and the age goes up....slowly. If the cap goes up
no matter what, then the revenue keeps coming in (and going out). The rising age
can always be put on hold, depending on the demographics, but the revenue always
needs to continue. Of all the problems we face, SS is the easiest to fix and scrubbing
Medicare/Medicaid of waste fraud and abuse is the second easiest to fix (with only
minor fees/tax increases), yet so many think these are biggest drag on our system.

I think deciding what spending to decrease/cut is much harder and much more devisive.
On many threads (and to my Pub senator this morning-Grassley) I put forth a ten point
plan to mostly fix what ails us...so far, no response. Course, it might be cause I told
him I wasn't in his party. Would he be that narrow minded?

[StoopTroup]

Hell yes....with compounding growth a well thought out system should be able to pay out more than each person contributed...

Only an idiot would think it is foolish for a person to expect to get at least 250k in benefit if you pay in 250k over an average lifetime....

Honestly...I can say that I haven't made some pretty good financial decisions and also been able to say "I told you so you stupid a$$!"...but there came a point where I didn't think I needed to worry about things so much and that I knew no matter what happened...with my Faith in God and the ability to continue to make decent decisions financially...I really didn't need to worry about how things who play out in my life. It's in his hands now and I since having God in my life all those worries seemed to disappear.

[pphilfran]

What are you rambling about?

[StoopTroup]

I have made a couple of really bad ones and at one time...I thought I was going to be broke. That changed when I realized later that I had lived my life as a honest man and paid my bills and that in doing so...our Family was rewarded in so many ways. Financial was the least of those rewards but knowing we hadn't backed ourselves into a corner and having Faith it would get better has just shown me miracles that I wasn't sure existed.

[StoopTroup]

What are you rambling about?

That FICA and Social Security isn't going to ruin my life and that we all have the ability to overcome all of these worries.

[pphilfran]

I am Glad that you have found Faith...I am sure it will Benefit you and your Family far Into the future....

[StoopTroup]

I even saw Union guys and Private sector folks shaking hands today and thanking our Veterans for their service. People coming together to honor what was most important...our Freedom.

[StoopTroup]

I am Glad that you have found Faith...I am sure it will Benefit you and your Family far Into the future....

I found it when I was six and it was pretty much on my own as my Mom and Dad were raised in different Religions. It was actually my Faith that later...I saw all of my Family find Faith. If you knew my Family...that was a miracle in itself.

[rock on sooner]

I am Glad that you have found Faith...I am sure it will Benefit you and your Family far Into the future....

Be that as it may, SS and Medicare/Medicaid are facts of our lives and
have to be addressed. I'm sure that faith factors in for most of us but
reality factors in for ALL of us.

[okie52]

:eddie::eddie::eddie::eddie:

[SoonerorLater]

67-68 wouldn't hurt anyone. And how much have the benefits grown in the last 70 years?

If you were born 1960 or later the full retirement age is already 67. Unless you moved retirement back 2 or 3 years you really aren't going to make much of a dent. As a practical matter most employers aren't looking to to hire 65 year olds so if you find yourself looking for work at that age you might be looking a long time. There are certainly some people in that age group that would be able to do the daily grind every day but it doesn't seem like something you could game plan around.

[StoopTroup]

I don't like the Doom and Gloom. I've seen it first hand and patience and faith instead of panic and conspiracy has always led us through these dark times that so many Folks seem to be suffering from because of President Obama's re-election.

I was just as stressed as some of you prior to the election about many things that might change and further divide our Country. I really believe his re-election was a positive event rather than a "We're Doomed" moment.

Seeing so many people marching today that were White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, gay, straight, tall, short....etc...just reminded me of how we are all Americans and if tested...we will all work together to fight for our Freedom and the safety of all...no matter what our differences are.

Just a great Day.

[FaninAma]

Like I've said for some time...it gets down to Me Me Me....

Seriously? Get back every cent you pay?

Is it a retirement system or just another tax? As far as "getting down to me, me me", that's a two-way street and seems something more appropriately asked of the people who support the progressives.

[StoopTroup]

If you were born 1960 or later the full retirement age is already 67. Unless you moved retirement back 2 or 3 years you really aren't going to make much of a dent. As a practical matter most employers aren't looking to to hire 65 year olds so if you find yourself looking for work at that age you might be looking a long time. There are certainly some people in that age group that would be able to do the daily grind every day but it doesn't seem like something you could game plan around.

1959

I would vote to pay more but I think a bunch of law suits from folks approaching retirement might need to take place to remind employers they can't just fire a guy because he's approaching retirement to avoid the promises they made to keep him or her there all these years. I think you might need to have been affected by such tactics in order to understand how wrong it is to use such tactics. Also...older people should realize there will come a day when they can't do the duties they did when they were younger and educate themselves instead of put their faith in people who may think Old Farts are in the way of them getting a raise or making better wage.

[FaninAma]

Because there is no God and this is my only shot to step on the spines of other Humans so I can live in a World where "How much money is enough?"...."A little bit more".
Give me a break. Purely emotional responses. How much of other people's money do the less well off have a right to.....as much as they can get from the politicians they elect?

It really doesn't make any difference. Europe has proven that too little taxation isn't the cause of their failing economies.

Also, the state of California with their exhorbitant retirment plans for local and state government retirees says hello!

[StoopTroup]

Be that as it may, SS and Medicare/Medicaid are facts of our lives and
have to be addressed. I'm sure that faith factors in for most of us but
reality factors in for ALL of us.

I agree. I would find it hard to sleep at night if I knew my Father wasn't able to live out his life peacefully and without medications that would give him a better quality of life as he awaits the call which will allow him to be re-united with my Mom and our relatives who came before and after...

[StoopTroup]

Give me a break. Purely emotional responses. How much of other people's money do the have-nots have a right to.....as much as they xan get from the politicians they elect.

It really doesn't make any difference. Europe has proven that too little taxation isn't the cause of their failing economies.

I'm not sure I know the answer to that question but I really don't believe we are near the point that we must make that call. I understand it bugs the hell out of some folks but I think we have really been very lucky in this Country and we still continue to hand out Billions to other Countries even though we are falling short on our own.

[olevetonahill]

Heh, ST goes to Hollywood


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8pKxQ4mLEE

[okie52]

If you were born 1960 or later the full retirement age is already 67. Unless you moved retirement back 2 or 3 years you really aren't going to make much of a dent. As a practical matter most employers aren't looking to to hire 65 year olds so if you find yourself looking for work at that age you might be looking a long time. There are certainly some people in that age group that would be able to do the daily grind every day but it doesn't seem like something you could game plan around.


Well Im pre 1960 and I certainly don't mind my age being pushed back to 70...that would give me an expected use of SS for 12 years.

There are age discrimination laws. I'm sure people that are post 50 years of age struggle more to find jobs than younger people. But, that's going to be true whether you're 60 or 65.

[pphilfran]

If you were born 1960 or later the full retirement age is already 67. Unless you moved retirement back 2 or 3 years you really aren't going to make much of a dent. As a practical matter most employers aren't looking to to hire 65 year olds so if you find yourself looking for work at that age you might be looking a long time. There are certainly some people in that age group that would be able to do the daily grind every day but it doesn't seem like something you could game plan around.


If you are counting on SS covering your bills when you do retire you are making a drastic mistake...and if you don't have a sizable nest egg saved you will work till you are 70 no matter the full benefit age for SS....

Also, you can start drawing benefits as early as 62, though at lower benefit amount....bump that to 65 or 66....

[StoopTroup]

Thanksgiving could be seen as a really emotional response I guess. I don't know how many folks in this forum will go without a Turkey Dinner this year but we have made plans to have Thanksgiving with my Wife's Father for the first time in 14 years. He has given of himself for years during Thanksgiving and Christmas. He isn't having to work out of State again this year. He is a Korean War Veteran and even though he gave enough back then to never have to work for one second...he continues to work in a capacity that is so giving of himself. We could write a Novel about all the instances he has made Christmas Special for people who have nothing or lost a family member and are struggling to make sense of it all. He has done it for 14 years after Walmart ran his small hardware store out of Business. He went bankrupt in his late 60's and was given a huge Blessing from God that allowed him to keep himself and his Wife comfortable through some very scary times. He could have just retired and accepted that he didn't have anything left to give. He's an amazing guy and I'm proud to be married to his Daughter and be a part of his Family.

I am looking forward to him sitting at our table this year with our kids and us even though he is able to buy his own Turkey Dinner. We have been blessed with a bumper crop of pecans so he will get all the Pecan Pie he want's too.

There are so many people who we owe for having his presence at our Dinner Table. It's truly another miracle that we have received even though this economy is in the State it is. I know my Wife is going to cry so I am probably going to have to practice my pie making skills this week to make sure Dad gets the pie he so very much deserves. We are hoping to share these Blessings from God with him and everyone he brings with him. We aren't the only ones who have missed him being Home all these years.

He's a fantastic guy who still works at 82. He doesn't depend on many of the things others do that seem to think they are owed it. We have never heard him complain about any of the things in this forum that others are extremely upset about. FICA, Social Security, Medicare or his Military Retirement...I never heard him even say the words. His health hasn't always been perfect either but even when he was ill living in a Hotel or Motel for a Month every year....he has overcome it all.

Maybe I will Vote for Pedro....or Grandpa as we all call him.

I think many Old Farts must be getting a bad rap from 30 year olds as his Brothers were just like him and so are many of the guys that still trade with his store he started after losing everything 16 years ago.

[Breadburner]

It's easy to tell who in this thread works to support them-selves and who has to leach off someone else.....

[sappstuf]

Give me a break. Purely emotional responses. How much of other people's money do the less well off have a right to.....as much as they can get from the politicians they elect?

It really doesn't make any difference. Europe has proven that too little taxation isn't the cause of their failing economies.

Also, the state of California with their exhorbitant retirment plans for local and state government retirees says hello!

Didn't the Dems just get super majorities everywhere in California? I expect all of their fiscal problems to be solved by this time next week...

[sappstuf]

http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/benefit6.cgi

Bob, born 1/1/1950, earns 40k a year and starts drawing his benefit on 1/1/2015...Bob will draw $1717 per month
Tom, born 1/1/1950, earns 100k a year and starts drawing his benefit on 1/1/2015...Tom will draw $2961


So Tom paid in 150% more than Bob...yet only receives only about 70% more in benefit...but poor old Bob is getting screwed...

Numbers are in today's dollars...

Tom didn't build that...

[StoopTroup]

It's easy to tell who in this thread works to support them-selves and who has to leach off someone else.....

WTH are you rambling on about?