The Real Source of Obama's Majority?

[FaninAma]

The vast majority of Obama's popular vote majority was garnered from 3 states.....NY, California and Illinois. Are we sure that we want the electorate from the states with their state budgets in financial shambles telling us we should be more like them? Thanks but no thanks.

[Soonerjeepman]

but but he won the white women, young folk, minorities, illegals....everyone except us "old angry white men"....

yeah california, voted to raise taxes RETRO on the rich...pay for transsexual operations for the poor...weird...

[rock on sooner]

The vast majority of Obama's popular vote majority was garnered from 3 states.....NY, California and Illinois. Are we sure that we want the electorate from the states with their state budgets in financial shambles telling us we should be more like them? Thanks but no thanks.

I dunno, there's lots of folks in FL, WA, OR, NV, CO, IA, WI, OH, PA and
all the other states he carried whose votes for him counted. I'm thinking
there might be some flaws in your premise. Just sayin...

[cleller]

but but he won the white women, young folk, minorities, illegals....everyone except us "old angry white men"....

yeah california, voted to raise taxes RETRO on the rich...pay for transsexual operations for the poor...weird...

Just because someone cannot afford to pay for something, or because they are in prison doesn't mean that they should be denied sexual re-assignment surgery. This is America, Home of the Free! :chargrined:

Well, free as long as you are broke, in prison, etc.

[KantoSooner]

When you lose one election, maybe it was the message, maybe it was the messenger, maybe it was the way you pitched it.
When you lose two presidential elections in a row, you better start examining why.

[Curly Bill]

When you lose one election, maybe it was the message, maybe it was the messenger, maybe it was the way you pitched it.
When you lose two presidential elections in a row, you better start examining why.


Too many Americans are essentially losers and want the government to take care of em?

[KABOOKIE]

Its hard to run on a platform of personally responsibilty. Better off telling them exactly want people want to hear. FREE STUFF, TAX THE RICH, AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP, GOLD STREETS FOREVER!!!!!

[Curly Bill]

Bread and Circus baby! Bread and Circus!

[FaninAma]

I dunno, there's lots of folks in FL, WA, OR, NV, CO, IA, WI, OH, PA and
all the other states he carried whose votes for him counted. I'm thinking
there might be some flaws in your premise. Just sayin...
No, the flaw is in you don't understand the premise. Here, let me make it easier for you to undertand. Throw out all the votes of those 3 states, both GOP and Democratic, and see where it leaves us. I could even throw in the state with the 4th worst state budget problems, Washington, and the results are even worse.

The premise is even if you accept Obama got a mandate his margin for that " mandate" came from the states whose voters have elected politicians who have put their state finances in the crapper. Is that a mandate we should listen to?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

No we should let the least educated (http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2012/11/509bedacdc6e5.jpeg) states tell us what to do

[TitoMorelli]

No we should let the least educated (http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2012/11/509bedacdc6e5.jpeg) states tell us what to do

Funny, though, how the least educated still manage to be the most informed politically.


http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/22/science-say-gop-voters-better-informed-open-minded/

[Soonerjeepman]

When you lose one election, maybe it was the message, maybe it was the messenger, maybe it was the way you pitched it.
When you lose two presidential elections in a row, you better start examining why.

suppose that's what the dems did after 8 yrs of Bush...get someone who wants to give out free stuff (health care, phones, $ from the rich) for the poor and minorities, and is a minority himself (well half anyways). You guys still can't admit that you won by less than 3% of the vote...that is NOT a landslide. So, America is not TOTALLY going balls to the walls for your guy. In fact several of the "libs" on here actually said obama seemed the least negative, but both were bad. He won basically by default.

[cleller]

Funny, though, how the least educated still manage to be the most informed politically.


http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/22/science-say-gop-voters-better-informed-open-minded/

Funny part of the article, a good summation of the Dems:

"However, Pew’s data suggests that the Democrats’ low average rating likely is a consequence of its bipolar political coalition, which combines well-credentialed post-graduate progressives who score well in quizzes with a much larger number of poorly educated supporters, who score badly."

Looks like someone is getting used. But who?

[TUSooner]

suppose that's what the dems did after 8 yrs of Bush...get someone who wants to give out free stuff (health care, phones, $ from the rich) for the poor and minorities, and is a minority himself (well half anyways). You guys still can't admit that you won by less than 3% of the vote...that is NOT a landslide. So, America is not TOTALLY going balls to the walls for your guy. In fact several of the "libs" on here actually said obama seemed the least negative, but both were bad. He won basically by default.

People need their myths.

[rock on sooner]

Funny, though, how the least educated still manage to be the most informed politically.


http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/22/science-say-gop-voters-better-informed-open-minded/

Informed or brainwashed?

[TUSooner]

Informed or brainwashed?

Brainwashed is so harsh; we now prefer "indoctrinated."

[rock on sooner]

Brainwashed is so harsh; we now prefer "indoctrinated."

Well, excuuuuuussee me...:biggrin:

[cleller]

Informed or brainwashed?

Its hard to come in second in a two party intelligence quiz, eh?

[TitoMorelli]

Informed or brainwashed?

Can't stand to admit anything, can you, smart-***?



The Pew survey adds to a wave of surveys and studies showing that GOP-sympathizers are better informed, more intellectually consistent, more open-minded, more empathetic and more receptive to criticism than their fellow Americans who support the Democratic Party.

Guess your response falls in line with the polling, too.

[okiewaker]

Well, seems right. Funny though. All smart folk, from both coasts, ran inward to get away from all the junk. Bastiges just think they got us cornered. lol

[TUSooner]

Can't stand to admit anything, can you, smart-***?



The Pew survey adds to a wave of surveys and studies showing that GOP-sympathizers are better informed, more intellectually consistent, more open-minded, more empathetic and more receptive to criticism than their fellow Americans who support the Democratic Party.

Guess your response falls in line with the polling, too.
I take that to mean that the 'Pubs know their playbook. But they certainly do, and not all are loonies for it.

I just want to know why none of those smart 'Pubs ever post here!

[okiewaker]

Libs taken over both coasts,,,Spose they're searching for a boat? IDK

[SanJoaquinSooner]

ttt

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The vast majority of Obama's popular vote majority was garnered from 3 states.....NY, California and Illinois. Are we sure that we want the electorate from the states with their state budgets in financial shambles telling us we should be more like them? Thanks but no thanks.

Dude, do you really want to stand by that statemtent? Obama got 20.5% of his votes from those three states, hardly "the vast majority."

"Vast majority" means well over 50%. 20.5% is in no way the vast majority of his popular votes.


In fact, California, NY, and Illinois contain 22.5% of the U.S. population. So the fact that 20.5% of his votes came from those three states is quite in line of an expected count if there is no relationship between state and candidate preference.

I did not vote for Obama this time or in 2008, so I'm not pointing this out as a Obama groupie. But the pubs are control-freak buffoons when it comes to attracting new party members.




Stats: 12,656,136/61,675.412 = 20.5%

(37,691,912 + 19,465,197 + 12,869,251)/311,000,000 = 22.5%

[TitoMorelli]

I take that to mean that the 'Pubs know their playbook. But they certainly do, and not all are loonies for it.

I just want to know why none of those smart 'Pubs ever post here!

What makes you so sure that you're capable of recognizing or giving credit when they do? Or would those posts have to mirror your own "moderate" (/sarc) philosophy in order for you to accept them as valid?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Too many Americans are essentially losers and want the government to take care of em?
^^^^^^ This!!!
this country is going downhill, free thought is being stifled, while the do nothings get free **** and hand outs from the people we used to hold in high esteem, the working successful people. Now it is open season on them to be ****in "fair". Lets see how long that lasts until we have complete fiscal break down, The Socialists plan BTW, and we have riots like Greece.

Just looks at those *******s in NE. Bitchin' and whinin' about power. ****, its only been a week. Parts of Houston were out of power for 4 weeks after Ike. So NYC, STFU!!!

[TAFBSooner]

suppose that's what the dems did after 8 yrs of Bush...get someone who wants to give out free stuff (health care, phones, $ from the rich) for the poor and minorities, and is a minority himself (well half anyways). You guys still can't admit that you won by less than 3% of the vote...that is NOT a landslide. So, America is not TOTALLY going balls to the walls for your guy. In fact several of the "libs" on here actually said obama seemed the least negative, but both were bad. He won basically by default.

Help my memory out here - what percent of the popular vote did Bush the Lesser win by in 2000?

Count me as a liberal who is relieved, not overjoyed, that Obama won. And speakin' a which, aren't there a few conservatives on here who thought Romney was merely the lesser of two evils?

[TUSooner]

^^^^^^ This!!!
this country is going downhill, free thought is being stifled, while the do nothings get free **** and hand outs from the people we used to hold in high esteem, the working successful people. Now it is open season on them to be ****in "fair". Lets see how long that lasts until we have complete fiscal break down, The Socialists plan BTW, and we have riots like Greece.

Just looks at those *******s in NE. Bitchin' and whinin' about power. ****, its only been a week. Parts of Houston were out of power for 4 weeks after Ike. So NYC, STFU!!!


Try a laxative.

[TUSooner]

What makes you so sure that you're capable of recognizing or giving credit when they do? Or would those posts have to mirror your own "moderate" (/sarc) philosophy in order for you to accept them as valid?

I'll howl at all of you anyway, just to be safe. :biggrin:

[bluedogok]

No we should let the least educated (http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2012/11/509bedacdc6e5.jpeg) states tell us what to do
Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you are smart, I know some pretty stupid people with multiple degrees when it comes to anything outside of their field of study...of course most of them never left academia either. The "real world" is just too scary for them.

[FaninAma]

Obama had a 4.4 million vote advantage over Romney in the 3 states that will most likely declare bankruptcy during the next 4 years. Yeah, lets be more like them. And who knew that NY and New Jersey were worse at handling natural disasters than the dumb hicks in the South.

[SoonerorLater]

Help my memory out here - what percent of the popular vote did Bush the Lesser win by in 2000?

Count me as a liberal who is relieved, not overjoyed, that Obama won. And speakin' a which, aren't there a few conservatives on here who thought Romney was merely the lesser of two evils?

I guess you would consider me as one of those conservatives you named but as you just said the greater of the two evils won. That can't be good

[TitoMorelli]

Obama had a 4.4 million vote advantage over Romney in the 3 states that will most likely declare bankruptcy during the next 4 years. Yeah, lets be more like them. And who knew that NY and New Jersey were worse at handling natural disasters than the dumb hicks in the South.

Wait, that can't be right. Where are all the 24/7 news networks screaming at this administration for its inept handling of the recovery? Where's Sean Penn and his leaky boat?

[FaninAma]

Here are some interesting numbers for the gleeful progressives dancing on the grave of the GOP:

30: Number of governorships held by the GOP
25: Number of state legislatures controlled by the GOP
17: Number of state legislatures controlled by the Democrats
8: Number of state legislatures with spilt control or non-partisan control(Nebraska's unicameral legislature)

Looks like the Democrats have a little harder time turning out their base in non-national elections.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Try a laxative.
I'm quite regular, thank you for your concern.

[cleller]

Ah, that party with the "much larger number of poorly educated supporters" really knows how to run a country.

[FaninAma]

Ah, that party with the "much larger number of poorly educated supporters" really knows how to run a country.

That was one of the intelligent decisions of the Founding Fathers.....give the States enough power and self-control to choose their own path. Then hopefully the citizens in other states could look at those who are successful and not so successful and decide which ones they want to emulate. Apparently we have too many who pay no attention to details like this.

[FaninAma]

SanJoaquin, reading comprehension is your friend. My premise is that Obama won the popular vote by a total of 3 miilion nation wide. He won the popular vote in those 3 states by a margin of 4.4 million. That means those 3 states gave him his entire popular vote margin of victory and then some.

Can you do the math or do you need me to do that for you?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

SanJoaquin, reading comprehension is your friend. My premise is that Obama won the popular vote by a total of 3 miilion nation wide. He won the popular vote in those 3 states by a margin of 4.4 million. That means those 3 states gave him his entire popular vote margin of victory and then some.

Can you do the math or do you need me to do that for you?

You wrote:
The vast majority of Obama's popular vote majority was garnered from 3 states

So you should have written "margin of victory" instead of "majority" if that is what you meant. Admit it, what you wrote did not reflect what you actually meant. My reading comprehension was not the problem.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

wurds r dum

[StoopTroup]

The vast majority of Obama's popular vote majority was garnered from 3 states.....NY, California and Illinois. Are we sure that we want the electorate from the states with their state budgets in financial shambles telling us we should be more like them? Thanks but no thanks.

You should run for Office. Agnostic ought to go over even better than Mormon. Maybe Billy Graham will take agnostic off his list of list of cults.

I really don't think Billy should have a list of cults but to each his own. I differ with him in how to bring people into Christianity. I always have. I know Money is a God to many people but those without aren't really waiting around for things as Bill O'Reilly put it.

I admit there are a few but where there are a few.....there are just as many Trust Fund Babies that grow up without a clue about what people in NY, California or Illinois think, why they vote the way they do or what's wrong with the State's Budget there. Most folks are just trying to get through today and most folks were pretty turned off by people who tell them what to think as that seems to be who created the mess in the first place.

This entire meltdown by folks in the GOP and Tea Party won't change anything. Fear of being like 3 States? Really they are probably more fearful of guys like you who think there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Many Americans think they can travel a 3 mile road instead of the 1.5 mile road you want to take. Maybe they can even take a few moments to reflect and pray and even smell a few flowers along the way.

It seems even a few folks in all the States...61 million of them...are looking at States like Colorado, Washington and almost Arkansas to see what they are smelling or may we say...smoking along the way.

[FaninAma]

StoopTroop, i don't disagree at all. It doesn't shock me that the legalize marijuana propositions passed. People are always looking for ways to check out from reality.

I could care less about the social issues of the nation as long as you take responsibility for your actions. But you shouldn't be able to turn your excesses into a disability that the taxpayers have to pay for.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

A major reason Obama won this election was because he got pretty much all of the black vote and a good majority of the Hispanic vote. So, we as a nation, have basically allowed the poorest, most uneducated, and highest crime producing populations dictate the direction of our once great nation.

[Curly Bill]

A major reason Obama won this election was because he got pretty much all of the black vote and a good majority of the Hispanic vote. So, we as a nation, have basically allowed the poorest, most uneducated, and highest crime producing populations dictate the direction of our once great nation.

Yup, they're outbreeding and out immigrating the best among us.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Yup, they're outbreeding and out immigrating the best among us.

Concur

[TheHumanAlphabet]

The movie Idiotcracy comes to mind...

[cleller]

A major reason Obama won this election was because he got pretty much all of the black vote and a good majority of the Hispanic vote. So, we as a nation, have basically allowed the poorest, most uneducated, and highest crime producing populations dictate the direction of our once great nation.

I'm surprised some aren't piling onto you for this. It is funny how some facts you are allowed to use, and some you are not.

Then there's all the "accepted facts" that are totally false.

[hawaii 5-0]

A major reason Obama won this election was because he got pretty much all of the black vote and a good majority of the Hispanic vote. So, we as a nation, have basically allowed the poorest, most uneducated, and highest crime producing populations dictate the direction of our once great nation.



Amusing that neither Romney nor Ryan could even carry their own States.

Actually I'm not sure what State Romney is from, he changes so often.


I'm sure both Wisconsin and Mass/New Hamp/Cali/Mich/Caymans/Switzerland are all full of Blacks and Latinos

5-0

[Turd_Ferguson]

Amusing that neither Romney nor Ryan could even carry their own States.

Actually I'm not sure what State Romney is from, he changes so often.


I'm sure both Wisconsin and Mass/New Hamp/Cali/Mich are all full of Blacks and Latinos

5-0You forgot Unions...


Edit: I cut out the /Caymans/Switzerland part of your quote for obvious reasons.

[hawaii 5-0]

You forgot Unions...


THA didn't mention Unions.

I was responding to his post.

Maybe you should be making excuses to him, not me.

5-0

[Turd_Ferguson]

THA didn't mention Unions.

I was responding to his post.

Maybe you should be making excuses to him, not me.

5-0

He also didn't mention Wisconsin and Mass/New Hamp/Cali/Mich/Caymans/Switzerland...did he? Maybe you should pull the stick out of your *** and quit acting like your the smartest mother ****er in the world...

[hawaii 5-0]

He also didn't mention Wisconsin and Mass/New Hamp/Cali/Mich/Caymans/Switzerland...did he? Maybe you should pull the stick out of your *** and quit acting like your the smartest mother ****er in the world...


There you go with your anal fixation again.

Honestly, I think there's a good reason you gave yourself your Username and it doesn't have a thing to do with Burt Reynolds.

Do you wipe or drip dry?


I've always maintained that I'm not perfect, nor the smartest. It's just that when you get Pwned you resort to your old tired anal references.

I think some Professional help could ease your neuroses.

5-0

[rock on sooner]

StoopTroop, i don't disagree at all. It doesn't shock me that the legalize marijuana propositions passed. People are always looking for ways to check out from reality.

I could care less about the social issues of the nation as long as you take responsibility for your actions. But you shouldn't be able to turn your excesses into a disability that the taxpayers have to pay for.

Just as an aside, one report I read is that if maryjane was legal and taxed
it would be a big revenue producer and would cut the drug cartels profits by
up to one third.

[FaninAma]

You wrote:

So you should have written "margin of victory" instead of "majority" if that is what you meant. Admit it, what you wrote did not reflect what you actually meant. My reading comprehension was not the problem.

I agree. I used the wrong term but you get the point. Obama's margin in those 3 states was 150% of his total margin of victory. 40% of the Latino vote and 50% of the Asian vote came from California also making the meaning of those 2 blocks going so overwhelmingly for Obama less clear.

[KantoSooner]

ROS, Were you not on distribution? It is clearly stated that facts will not be allowed on this forum.

[lexsooner]

The movie Idiotcracy comes to mind...

You mean Idiocracy, don't you, Clevon? Lol!

[rock on sooner]

ROS, Were you not on distribution? It is clearly stated that facts will not be allowed on this forum.

Oh, Man, from time to time stuff just happens! I'll try to control it.:biggrin:

[Sooner5030]

Pubs need to get the Asian Merican vote back. Not sure why Romney lost this vote when it used to go for pubs years ago.

The simpleton educated v uneducated point is useless without a better breakout. I'd really like to see STEM v non-STEM degrees. Also, BAs with student loan debt v BAs without student loan debt. I don't consider someone to be educated if they borrowed 100k to get a sociology degree from columbia.

[KantoSooner]

5030, I can speak to the Asian/Mercan issue having been married to an Asian woman and having a bi-racial kid who's got Asian/Mercan friends. I spend a lot of time in these communities. It is really simple.

Here goes.

Whether it is justified overall or even in individual cases, the anti-immigrant rants, combined with the nativist foreign policies and religious extremism are understood very clearly to be racist in at least large measure.

The reaction of a large portion of the Asian American community is to vote Democrat, get that god-damned degree, keep your head down, and save your money in case you have to scamper to the coast or get out of the country completely if anti-yellow pogroms start up.

The Republicans are seen as the party of increasingly angry racists. This may not be correct, true or in the interests of the people doing the evaluating. It is, however, what a large majority of my Asian American friends feel. And that is a big, big change from even 20 years ago. Hell, it's a big change from 12 years ago. W might have been seen as an incoherent dufuss, but no one thougth he was personally mean spirited.

I would suspect that similar, more or less grounded, feelings prevail in a number of 'minority' communities. Pity for the Pubs is that furious white people are now a minority of their own.

Again, when the Republicans can't hold the votes of Orange County Orthodontists, they're in a world of hurt.

[Sooner5030]

5030, I can speak to the Asian/Mercan issue having been married to an Asian woman and having a bi-racial kid who's got Asian/Mercan friends. I spend a lot of time in these communities. It is really simple.

Here goes.

Whether it is justified overall or even in individual cases, the anti-immigrant rants, combined with the nativist foreign policies and religious extremism are understood very clearly to be racist in at least large measure.

The reaction of a large portion of the Asian American community is to vote Democrat, get that god-damned degree, keep your head down, and save your money in case you have to scamper to the coast or get out of the country completely if anti-yellow pogroms start up.

The Republicans are seen as the party of increasingly angry racists. This may not be correct, true or in the interests of the people doing the evaluating. It is, however, what a large majority of my Asian American friends feel. And that is a big, big change from even 20 years ago. Hell, it's a big change from 12 years ago. W might have been seen as an incoherent dufuss, but no one thougth he was personally mean spirited.

I would suspect that similar, more or less grounded, feelings prevail in a number of 'minority' communities. Pity for the Pubs is that furious white people are now a minority of their own.

Again, when the Republicans can't hold the votes of Orange County Orthodontists, they're in a world of hurt.

Yeah....the probably a good part of......I just figured that the Asian Mericans would prefer a meritocracy type of government.

I am also married to an Asian that is now a US Citizen. However, after following all the rules, paying the fees for the 2 year, 10 year LPR and then the naturalization.....we get a little pissed that someone could just bypass all of that and break the rules and still get citizenship.

[Scott D]

Funny part of the article, a good summation of the Dems:

"However, Pew’s data suggests that the Democrats’ low average rating likely is a consequence of its bipolar political coalition, which combines well-credentialed post-graduate progressives who score well in quizzes with a much larger number of poorly educated supporters, who score badly."

Looks like someone is getting used. But who?

Anyone who votes either Democrat or Republican.

[FaninAma]

Kanto, so you are saying the demonization of the GOP's immigration policies worked with your wife? Can she cite one example of the GOP wanting to send immigrats who are here legally back to their native countries? Does she even realize that the illegal immigration influx actually hurts those at the bottom of the socieconomic food chain the worst via competition for jobs and social services?

Or does she make decisions based on pure emotion like so many on the left do?

[KantoSooner]

Yeah....the probably a good part of......I just figured that the Asian Mericans would prefer a meritocracy type of government.

I am also married to an Asian that is now a US Citizen. However, after following all the rules, paying the fees for the 2 year, 10 year LPR and then the naturalization.....we get a little pissed that someone could just bypass all of that and break the rules and still get citizenship.

Tell me about it. It took 3 years and a day long hearing in which my wife's status was questioned as a prostitute before the judge finally got pissed and told the INS azzhole to issue the green card or he'd have US marshalls come 'help him to do his job'. INS is composed wholly of sub-humans.

[KantoSooner]

Kanto, so you are saying the demonization of the GOP's immigration policies worked with your wife? Can she cite one example of the GOP wanting to send immigrats who are here legally back to their native countries? Does she even realize that the illegal immigration influx actually hurts those at the bottom of the socieconomic food chain the worst via competition for jobs and social services?

Or does she make decisions based on pure emotion like so many on the left do?

Firstly, do you typically let your emotion and frustration cause you to insult people and destroy your ability to make cogent arguments? You're smarter than this post.

I've been divorced for five years and my ex- lives in Japan. Her extended family, however, and my daughter's friends, and the business friends built up over 35 years living in and working in Asia are, I believe, characteristic of Asian American opinion.

These people listened to the comments on immigration and foreign policy and the sentiments about what it means to be a 'real American' and got the message not that illegal immigration was the target, but that immigrants were unwanted and disliked. Remember when I said above that the evaluation might be illogical? That it might not, in fact, represent the true positions of the party? That's the danger of falling into the demonization of 'the other', however, and that little game was played by the Republicans all this last year.

And guess what? Those words were not only heard by the angry, panting Bubbas and Bubbettes the Pub Pols were aiming them at; they were also heard by the Indian-American doctors, the Japanese-American car dealers, the Thai-American sales executives and so forth. And they got the message that Republicans were anti-immigrant and wanted a return to a 'white America'.

And so they voted their 'interests'. And do I blame them? Not much. Had I been in a more vulnerable group, I would have listened to talk of 'self deportation' and watched Santorum's spittle flecked diatribes regarding core values and I would have said, mmm hmmm, I'm not waiting for the roof to cave in.

You can accept this observation or not as you please; but courtesy really does earn points sometimes. And confrontational words sometimes also generate confrontation where none needs to exist.

[okie52]

Firstly, do you typically let your emotion and frustration cause you to insult people and destroy your ability to make cogent arguments? You're smarter than this post.

I've been divorced for five years and my ex- lives in Japan. Her extended family, however, and my daughter's friends, and the business friends built up over 35 years living in and working in Asia are, I believe, characteristic of Asian American opinion.

These people listened to the comments on immigration and foreign policy and the sentiments about what it means to be a 'real American' and got the message not that illegal immigration was the target, but that immigrants were unwanted and disliked. Remember when I said above that the evaluation might be illogical? That it might not, in fact, represent the true positions of the party? That's the danger of falling into the demonization of 'the other', however, and that little game was played by the Republicans all this last year.

And guess what? Those words were not only heard by the angry, panting Bubbas and Bubbettes the Pub Pols were aiming them at; they were also heard by the Indian-American doctors, the Japanese-American car dealers, the Thai-American sales executives and so forth. And they got the message that Republicans were anti-immigrant and wanted a return to a 'white America'.

And so they voted their 'interests'. And do I blame them? Not much. Had I been in a more vulnerable group, I would have listened to talk of 'self deportation' and watched Santorum's spittle flecked diatribes regarding core values and I would have said, mmm hmmm, I'm not waiting for the roof to cave in.

You can accept this observation or not as you please; but courtesy really does earn points sometimes. And confrontational words sometimes also generate confrontation where none needs to exist.

Part of the Pub poor presentation of the matter. I never once heard that there were 600,000 legal immigrants that are culturally diverse, educated and/or skilled labor every year that were granted citizenship and that the pubs wholly supported this sort of legal immigration.

Now as to nativist foreign policy you've got me there. Please explain.

[KantoSooner]

I was referring mostly to the China bashing (eerie similarities to the Japan bashing of the 1980's - in fact most of the issues are identical, you just sub-out one name and bung in the other).
If you're involved in pacific trade, it's pretty obvious that China is not 'cheating' to any important degree. Their workers are paid less and work as well (production, accuracy/error rates, trainability, etc) as US workers. They're poorer and work for less. Huge difference maker. And the government there allows horrendous pollution. Stuff that would have corporate officers hauled off to jail here. Another big game changer. They get preferential loans. Borderline, but still, no different that what Europe does. Another big advantage. And so forth.
They're outplaying us, fundamentally. But we want to stick with cheating metaphors. Not accurate and the way it's done is very reminescent of the 'Sly Oriental' stereotype that, if you don't remember it, is very deeply etched in the memories of the people so stigmatized. It wasn't necessary, and it alienated people.
To me it showed that our Rebublican candidates felt like they were having a private conversation for the first half of the year and then expected the folks they'd been bad mouthing to grant them a fresh start after the conventions. It rose up to bite them.

[FaninAma]

Firstly, do you typically let your emotion and frustration cause you to insult people and destroy your ability to make cogent arguments? You're smarter than this post.

I've been divorced for five years and my ex- lives in Japan. Her extended family, however, and my daughter's friends, and the business friends built up over 35 years


living in and working in Asia are, I believe, characteristic of Asian American opinion

These people listened to the comments on immigration and foreign policy and the sentiments about what it means to be a 'real American' and got the message not that illegal immigration was the target, but that immigrants were unwanted and disliked. Remember when I said above that the evaluation might be illogical? That it might not, in fact, represent the true positions of the
party? That's the danger of falling into the demonization
of 'the other', however, and that little game was played by the Republicans all this last year.

And guess what? Those words were not only heard by the angry, panting Bubbas and Bubbettes the Pub Pols were aiming them at; they were also heard by the Indian-

American doctors, the Japanese-American car dealers,
the Thai-American sales executives and so forth. And
they got the message that Republicans were anti-immigrant and wanted a return to a 'white America'.

And so they voted their 'interests'. And do I blame them?
Not much. Had I been in a more vulnerable group, I would have listened to talk of 'self deportation' and watched Santorum's spittle flecked diatribes regarding core values and I would have said, mmm hmmm, I'm not waiting for the roof to cave in.

You can accept this observation or not as you please; but courtesy really does earn points sometimes. And
confrontational words sometimes also generate confrontation where none needs to exist.

While I appreciate and respect the life ordeals you and your wife have dealt with due to her status as an immigrant it still doesn't change the fact that the tone of your discussion has been based entirely on emotion.

Again, calm down and cite some specific examples of Republicans wanting legal immigrants to be shipped out
of the country or advocating that it is okay they be discriminated against.

And again, exactly who does uncontrolled illegal immigration hurt? How many among the 8 %
unemployed(admitted UER) would like to not have to compete against cheaper undocumented immigrant labor?

My father-in-law works for the FDA in beef packing plants throughout the midwest. He states that everybody is
aware of the number of undocumented workers in the industry but they are cheap labor and are a big reason wages in that industry haven't increased in 10 years.

So actually your wife is helping to support those greedy big businesses that profit from the use of undocumented
workers. Additionally, doesn't it bother her that she had to go through such an ordeal to make sure her immigration status was done in a legal manner while other groups want to bypass that process and be moved up to the front of the line?

Pretty ironic don't you think?

[okie52]

I was referring mostly to the China bashing (eerie similarities to the Japan bashing of the 1980's - in fact most of the issues are identical, you just sub-out one name and bung in the other).
If you're involved in pacific trade, it's pretty obvious that China is not 'cheating' to any important degree. Their workers are paid less and work as well (production, accuracy/error rates, trainability, etc) as US workers. They're poorer and work for less. Huge difference maker. And the government there allows horrendous pollution. Stuff that would have corporate officers hauled off to jail here. Another big game changer. They get preferential loans. Borderline, but still, no different that what Europe does. Another big advantage. And so forth.
They're outplaying us, fundamentally. But we want to stick with cheating metaphors. Not accurate and the way it's done is very reminescent of the 'Sly Oriental' stereotype that, if you don't remember it, is very deeply etched in the memories of the people so stigmatized. It wasn't necessary, and it alienated people.
To me it showed that our Rebublican candidates felt like they were having a private conversation for the first half of the year and then expected the folks they'd been bad mouthing to grant them a fresh start after the conventions. It rose up to bite them.

It was currency manipulation that I was hearing during the debates although I had heard dems in the past stating the same thing. Now I will admit that I really didn't hear the specifics on exactly what the Chinese were doing in that regard and if I did then it went over my head. It sounded like in the past 4 years that both sides agreed on that fact and that the pubs were beating Obama over the head with it. How that plays to immigrants I don't really know but I would think that the Japanese would like to hear about the US confronting china as they are expecting the US to stand by them (militarily) with the island disputes they are having ith china.

Again, you would probably know better than me about their perception....right or wrong.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

You mean Idiocracy, don't you, Clevon? Lol!
Why yes, thanks for the update. That movie was so stupid, i couldn't finish watching it on a TransPacific flight and went to sleep.

[KantoSooner]

Fanin,
Sorry if I struck you as overwrought. You should see me when I really get goiing, I guess. To reply, my wife was never an immigrant, she was simply looking for a green card so that she could live here legally (with her American husband, me, and our dual-national daughter) without having to leave the country every 89 days. Having duly registered our marriage at the US Embassy in Tokyo and going through the rest of the rigamaroll, it still took her that long to merely get resident status. But that's a topic for another day.
Regarding the Republicans and Asian-Americans, let me state, once more, the argument I'm making; because it's apparently not getting through.

1. What I am stating may or may not be based on any reality in policy. It is, however, an accurate reflection of the feelings of a broad spectrum of this portion of the population as gathered by me, an non-pollster, using unscientific methods.
2. This sub-set of the US population has been relatively Republican over the years. It is a group that is characterized by fiscal and social conservative views.
3. They point to immigration policy and a perceived anti-foreigner -> anti-non-white bias on the part of Republicans. They also point to China-bashing which shades into Chinese-bashing which shades into, again, a perceived equation of non-white with 'bad'. They feel that they are seen as outsiders by the Republican Party.

It is missing the point of my comment to demand proof that the Republicans truly feel this way. Some, undoubtedly do, most don't. We may not be a post-racial society, but there's been tremendous movement over the past several decades.

The issue I was addressing was the very narrow one of, 'Why did the Republicans lose the Asian-American vote this time out?'. I believe the answer to be that they felt unwelcome. And I further think, and this is very much my own interpretation, that this feeling was generated by a calculated strategy on the part of the party to stir up divisive feelings in order to motivate 'the base'. Well, it worked. People were divided and set against one another; but apparently the smart guys in the back room hadn't added all the columns and only discovered late in the evening of Tuesday the sixth that, when you look at the big 'US' then divide out the little 'us' and the little 'them', the little 'them' turns out to be bigger than the little 'us'.

This would, in turn, imply that, presuming the 'Pubs want national office again, they need to entice at least some of those 'thems' to vote Republican next time out. Better adjust the message if that's the goal.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Fanin,
Sorry if I struck you as overwrought. You should see me when I really get goiing, I guess. To reply, my wife was never an immigrant, she was simply looking for a green card so that she could live here legally (with her American husband, me, and our dual-national daughter) without having to leave the country every 89 days. Having duly registered our marriage at the US Embassy in Tokyo and going through the rest of the rigamaroll, it still took her that long to merely get resident status. But that's a topic for another day.
Regarding the Republicans and Asian-Americans, let me state, once more, the argument I'm making; because it's apparently not getting through.

1. What I am stating may or may not be based on any reality in policy. It is, however, an accurate reflection of the feelings of a broad spectrum of this portion of the population as gathered by me, an non-pollster, using unscientific methods.
2. This sub-set of the US population has been relatively Republican over the years. It is a group that is characterized by fiscal and social conservative views.
3. They point to immigration policy and a perceived anti-foreigner -> anti-non-white bias on the part of Republicans. They also point to China-bashing which shades into Chinese-bashing which shades into, again, a perceived equation of non-white with 'bad'. They feel that they are seen as outsiders by the Republican Party.

It is missing the point of my comment to demand proof that the Republicans truly feel this way. Some, undoubtedly do, most don't. We may not be a post-racial society, but there's been tremendous movement over the past several decades.

The issue I was addressing was the very narrow one of, 'Why did the Republicans lose the Asian-American vote this time out?'. I believe the answer to be that they felt unwelcome. And I further think, and this is very much my own interpretation, that this feeling was generated by a calculated strategy on the part of the party to stir up divisive feelings in order to motivate 'the base'. Well, it worked. People were divided and set against one another; but apparently the smart guys in the back room hadn't added all the columns and only discovered late in the evening of Tuesday the sixth that, when you look at the big 'US' then divide out the little 'us' and the little 'them', the little 'them' turns out to be bigger than the little 'us'.

This would, in turn, imply that, presuming the 'Pubs want national office again, they need to entice at least some of those 'thems' to vote Republican next time out. Better adjust the message if that's the goal.


If the pubs want to fill the Big Tent, maybe they should form a recruitment committee of Turd, Alphabet, Fanin, Curly Bill, and Okie. They'll do it right.

[hawaii 5-0]

The Pub Policy of Continued Alienation is still in full force.

Has Rove finally come to the conclusion that Romney lost?


5-0

[TUSooner]

Waiter: Welcome to our restaurant in the middle of nowhere, sir. We have 2 specials. One is a donkey sausage made with every part of the beast, it comes with rat testicle salad. But I recommend our magnificent T-bone steak; it really is the best steak in town – delicious and satisfying!

Customer: Oh great; I’ll have the steak!

Waiter: Excellent choice! It comes with our signature all natural dog-poop sauce

Customer: Well, you can hold the sauce.

Waiter: No can do, Sir, it’s an essential part of our dish.

Customer: Can I have it on the side then?

Waiter: Afraid, not, sir. It just wouldn’t be authentic unless we put the poop sauce right on the steak.

Customer: Never mind, I’ll just have the donkey sausage.....

Waiter: WHY DO YOU HATE STEAK ?!?!?

[SicEmBaylor]

Waiter: Welcome to our restaurant in the middle of nowhere, sir. We have 2 specials. One is a donkey sausage made with every part of the beast, it comes with rat testicle salad. But I recommend our magnificent T-bone steak; it really is the best steak in town – delicious and satisfying!

Customer: Oh great; I’ll have the steak!

Waiter: Excellent choice! It comes with our signature all natural dog-poop sauce

Customer: Well, you can hold the sauce.

Waiter: No can do, Sir, it’s an essential part of our dish.

Customer: Can I have it on the side then?

Waiter: Afraid, not, sir. It just wouldn’t be authentic unless we put the poop sauce right on the steak.

Customer: Never mind, I’ll just have the donkey sausage.....

Waiter: WHY DO YOU HATE STEAK ?!?!?

You really need to start dining at better establishments.

[TUSooner]

Waiter: Welcome to our restaurant in the middle of nowhere, sir. We have 2 specials. One is a donkey sausage made with every part of the beast, it comes with rat testicle salad. But I recommend our magnificent T-bone steak; it really is the best steak in town – delicious and satisfying!

Customer: Oh great; I’ll have the steak!

Waiter: Excellent choice! It comes with our signature all natural dog-poop sauce

Customer: Well, you can hold the sauce.

Waiter: No can do, Sir, it’s an essential part of our dish.

Customer: Can I have it on the side then?

Waiter: Afraid, not, sir. It just wouldn’t be authentic unless we put the poop sauce right on the steak.

Customer: Never mind, I’ll just have the donkey sausage.....

Waiter: WHY DO YOU HATE STEAK ?!?!?

I meant to put that in the Republican Civil War thread. And I should have entitled it "One night at the Big Elephant Cafe: a Fable"

[LiveLaughLove]

I meant to put that in the Republican Civil War thread. And I should have entitled it "One night at the Big Elephant Cafe: a Fable"

It would have made no sense in either thread.

[LiveLaughLove]

Why is our government running advertisements on Mexican TV stations in Mexico promoting our food stamp program and how you acquire said food stamps?

Does this seem like voter shopping to anyone else?

Nah, I'm just a racist. I'm sure it's nothing but innocent.

[TAFBSooner]

Why is our government running advertisements on Mexican TV stations in Mexico promoting our food stamp program and how you acquire said food stamps?

Does this seem like voter shopping to anyone else?

Nah, I'm just a racist. I'm sure it's nothing but innocent.

It seems like . . . a real stretch to believe.

Source, please?

[TAFBSooner]

It would have made no sense in either thread.

Let me 'splain it:

Racism is the dog poop. People who aren't swimming in racism think that racists could discard it, relatively easily. Say, for instance, if they wanted to win a national election.

Since they can't, I guess your conclusion is unfortunately correct.

[TUSooner]

It would have made no sense in either thread.

Regrettably, your assessment appears correct. Sometimes attempts at creating metaphors fail miserably. Such as now.

But lemme splain: The metaphors or analogies are not exact, OK? They could be better.

Restaurant = election

Donkey sausage = Obama

Steak = Republican ideal, like fiscal responsibility (It was an illusion in this election, but steak represents something one might ordinarily prefer over donkey sausage.)

Dog poop = Tea party and loonies on the far right who cling to the GOP

Steak with doog poop sauce = The actual Republican selection available in this election. (You can't get the good without the intolerable, see?)

The diner's selection: donkey sausage is preferable to the "ideal" which is rendered repulsive

The Waiter's reaction: The same reaction by people around here who refuse to believe that many voter's rejected the loony right. I.e., we'd like the steak, but only if you stop ruining it with dog poop.

That is all.

[FaninAma]

If the pubs want to fill the Big Tent, maybe they should form a recruitment committee of Turd, Alphabet, Fanin, Curly Bill, and Okie. They'll do it right.

I don't want to fill the Big Tent unless the Big Tent has some ground rules that are accepted by those wanting to enter the Big Tent....otherwise we end up with California or Illinois or New York. Those are the very best examples of the Democratic Big Tent.

All economic values are not equal. All political and social philosophies are not equal. All cultures are not equal. If they were then there would never be cultures that dissappear from the earth when in fact the opposite is true....most cultures that have ever been in existence have disappeared from the earth due to some fatal flaw in their value system.

[rock on sooner]

It was currency manipulation that I was hearing during the debates although I had heard dems in the past stating the same thing. Now I will admit that I really didn't hear the specifics on exactly what the Chinese were doing in that regard and if I did then it went over my head. It sounded like in the past 4 years that both sides agreed on that fact and that the pubs were beating Obama over the head with it. How that plays to immigrants I don't really know but I would think that the Japanese would like to hear about the US confronting china as they are expecting the US to stand by them (militarily) with the island disputes they are having ith china.

Again, you would probably know better than me about their perception....right or wrong.

Okie, the Chinese keep their currency artifically low, creating unfair
pricing advantages in the world market place. Romney wanted to
designate the Chinese currency manipulators, making them subject
to some trade sanctions of some sort. Translated, I think that means
a trade war with them, which we obviously could not win anytime this
century (Go to Walmart and Target and look at the "Made in (location)"
sticker and you'll find more than 90% say "Made in China". If Romney
had taken the time to splain it properly, I don't think so many Asian-
Americans would have voted against him. Like so many of the CEO's
I've listened to or known, they say stuff expecting everyone to understand,
nod knowingly and fall in behind.

The Dems "Splainer-in-Chief" Clinton simply tore apart the Pubs viewpoint
totally in favor of the Dems, which was his job.

[KantoSooner]

...and haven't we decided that our society will be based on the concept that the people, will choose what they want to do, to the greatest possible degree, at the individual level? With a series of excluded zones into which the collective (government) can not intrude no matter what (our Constitutional rights).

If that is so, then it should be axiomatic that people trying to create litmus tests are pretty much bound to fail in attracting public support.

Republicans need to recast the party as one of principle, aspiration and process rather than conclusion and command. We need to be the party of freedom, as we once were, rather than the party of clubby conformity and frat-boy-like bullying. I hope for a day when a sitting US President, when asked what should be done about some issue replies, "Why should I have anything to say about it? I'm just the President. Go ask someone involved." When that day comes, our Federal Government will have finally acheived its proper role in our society.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I don't want to fill the Big Tent unless the Big Tent has some ground rules that are accepted by those wanting to enter the Big Tent....otherwise we end up with California or Illinois or New York. Those are the very best examples of the Democratic Big Tent.

All economic values are not equal. All political and social philosophies are not equal. All cultures are not equal. If they were then there would never be cultures that dissappear from the earth when in fact the opposite is true....most cultures that have ever been in existence have disappeared from the earth due to some fatal flaw in their value system.

Mmmm, maybe a couple middle aged Type-2-diabetic former government workers will be attracted to that....


Not exactly Reagan's "America is a shining city upon a hill" speech, but I guess it's a start.

[FaninAma]

Mmmm, maybe a couple middle aged Type-2-diabetic former government workers will be attracted to that....


Not exactly Reagan's "America is a shining city upon a hill" speech, but I guess it's a start.

The way liberals throw Reagan's name around I am starting to wonder if he actually ever had conservative values. Or could it be that liberals like to take his words and give them their own interpretation?

So, do you think all cultures are created equally? Do you agree or disagree that successful cultures that are emulated across the world or are otherwise able to exert significantly more influence on other cultures possess certain values not shared by the cultures that aren't successful at increasing their influence across the globe? And what happens to the successful culture when they take on more values of the less successful culture?

For the sake of discussion I will even define success as economic success, academic success, creative success, scientific and technological advancement success.

And if you can't discuss the questions without using emotion based opinion then don't even bother responding.

[kevpks]

I will even define success as economic success, academic success, creative success, scientific and technological advancement success.


I can respond briefly to the academic success aspect. Other cultures are sending their best students here to learn and come home. One issue we are having in higher education is that while the US has the best graduate programs in the world, many of those graduate students are from other countries. When they get their degrees, they go back where they're from. This leads to a shortage of elite domestic talent in science and mathematics. This indicates a broken education system somewhere if we're not churning out scientists and mathematicians like we used to. Maybe we should emulate other cultures to rebuild our elementary and secondary educational system.

By the way, I'm in the Humanities. There are plenty of PhDs in my field. We don't have a shortage of liberal pansy English and History professors to worry about : )

Dr. Michio Kaku lays it out pretty clearly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

[KantoSooner]

You raise an interesting question. I've had the conversation, over the years, with friends and have come to a working thesis that there have been a series of cultures that could be labelled 'A' or 'Alpha' type cultures. Not always the nicest groups of people, but the most influential, at least for their season in the sun. Some examples would be:

America
Germany
Britain
China
Japan
The Triple Alliance (The Aztec)
Polynesia
Russia
The Algonquian Confederation (and I mangled that spelling, sorry)
The Zulu
Rome

and others I'm sure.

Characteristics? Probably foremost is a carefully cultivated belief in their own righteousness and a tremendous self-confidence. You can see this in comparisons with peoples of other, less imposing, cultures. The people from the Alpha cultures attack problems 'knowing' that they will succeed in resolving the issue. Peoples from more diffident societies stand around waiting for somebody else to 'fix it'. And the 'Alpha' people 'know' that their solution is the best, most logical and perhaps the only solution. Try talking automotive technology with a German for an example.

As to the reasons for their downfall, well, to some degree every happy family is the same and every disaster is unique. As tempting as it might be to conclude that adopting a less dominant mindset is the forerunner to collapse, I am not sure history supports that conclusion. Rome certainly didn't fall apart for lack of arrogance or from loss of technological advantages. America's moments of greatest influence and dominance, globally have come when we have been at our most humble. Britain and Japan would probably fit the conclusion most closely, but both were built more on bluff than anything else. And that collapses awfully quickly once Toto pulls the curtain back.
The Mongols offer another interesting example. Certainly, in terms of land conquered and controlled they were history's greatest empire by a long, long margin, controlling, at one point, everything from Paris to Seoul and New Delhi to the Arctic Circle. Why did they lose their empire? In essence, they lost interest and went back to sheep herding.

I'm not prepared to offer any ultimate conclusions, but it's an area that's ripe for discussion.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The way liberals throw Reagan's name around I am starting to wonder if he actually ever had conservative values. Or could it be that liberals like to take his words and give them their own interpretation?

So, do you think all cultures are created equally? Do you agree or disagree that successful cultures that are emulated across the world or are otherwise able to exert significantly more influence on other cultures possess certain values not shared by the cultures that aren't successful at increasing their influence across the globe? And what happens to the successful culture when they take on more values of the less successful culture?

For the sake of discussion I will even define success as economic success, academic success, creative success, scientific and technological advancement success.

And if you can't discuss the questions without using emotion based opinion then don't even bother responding.


Fanina, I'll let the liberals speak for themselves. And I'll let this Reagan quote and your quote stand side-by-side for contrast:



'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'"

--Ronald Reagan, from his Farewell Address to the Nation (Jan 1989)




I don't want to fill the Big Tent unless the Big Tent has some ground rules that are accepted by those wanting to enter the Big Tent....otherwise we end up with California or Illinois or New York. Those are the very best examples of the Democratic Big Tent.

All economic values are not equal. All political and social philosophies are not equal. All cultures are not equal. If they were then there would never be cultures that dissappear from the earth when in fact the opposite is true....most cultures that have ever been in existence have disappeared from the earth due to some fatal flaw in their value system.

--Faninama, GOP Recruitment Committee (Nov 2012)

[rock on sooner]

FaninAma, you do realize that Reagan was a Democrat in the beginning....
crossed over to the Dark Side..:devilish:

[Scott D]

Saw a pretty good article today comparing the state of the GOP right now to that of the Dems in 1988. Truthfully other than the fact that against an actual strong candidate Romney would have been as whupped as Dukakis was, the main comparison was that the GOP isn't looking at an overall picture that finds a way to keep to it's "core values" and be able to attract those who don't identify with a political party because of a few views here and there that diverge from both paths. The strongest points it made was that what gave Bill Clinton such "crossover" appeal in 1992 was the fact that he was willing to in a roundabout way tell the more leftist part of the Dems to shut up, while it's been made more than clear that the GOP seems to be afraid of the radio and television "voices" that right now seem to define the party.

Maybe that's what the GOP really needs right now, that guy that is willing to stick to the core values, but also have the cojones to tell guys like Rush Limbaugh to be quiet sometimes when "rabble rousing" isn't serving the overall progression of the party as a whole. Maybe it isn't what they need, but clearly someone needs to find the disconnect and make necessary moves to fix it. Hopefully it isn't someone with Bush in their last name because that truly will spell the end of days.

[XingTheRubicon]

FaninAma, you do realize that Reagan was a Democrat in the beginning....
crossed over to the other Side..:devilish:

That's what most Americans do when they grow up...or start working.

[Midtowner]

So, do you think all cultures are created equally? Do you agree or disagree that successful cultures that are emulated across the world or are otherwise able to exert significantly more influence on other cultures possess certain values not shared by the cultures that aren't successful at increasing their influence across the globe? And what happens to the successful culture when they take on more values of the less successful culture?

It's pretty ballsy for a culture which has been evolving for oh.. a bit over 200 years now, arguably much less if we're talking about modern culture to be bragging about inherent superiority. Take the Chinese culture, it's been around for thousands of years, but was it "superior" when the Mongols were sacking Peking or when the Japanese invaded? That Japenese culture looked pretty great until its central tenants of invincibility and a divine Emperor were shattered by a couple of a-bombs.

The Romans had one of those superior cultures to, but they didn't seem so superior to the Vandals.

History remains to say whether this culture of ours is a flash in the pan or something more permanent. All of the doomsday preppers would disagree that we're the next Rome.

For now, I say take a look around the world to see what works and emulate that. If other countries are beating us in education, we need to learn something from them. Currently, our military aside, we are culturally what WAS a once great nation, but since, we have fallen behind in many areas where it counts--healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc. Yeah, we have this great military, probably the greatest the world has ever seen. It remains to be shown whether we actually need such a thing or not.

[okie52]

Okie, the Chinese keep their currency artifically low, creating unfair
pricing advantages in the world market place. Romney wanted to
designate the Chinese currency manipulators, making them subject
to some trade sanctions of some sort. Translated, I think that means
a trade war with them, which we obviously could not win anytime this
century (Go to Walmart and Target and look at the "Made in (location)"
sticker and you'll find more than 90% say "Made in China". If Romney
had taken the time to splain it properly, I don't think so many Asian-
Americans would have voted against him. Like so many of the CEO's
I've listened to or known, they say stuff expecting everyone to understand,
nod knowingly and fall in behind.

The Dems "Splainer-in-Chief" Clinton simply tore apart the Pubs viewpoint
totally in favor of the Dems, which was his job.

That was my understanding. There is no reason to allow the Chinese an unfair trade advantage and, if some haven't noticed, they are on the positive side of the trade imbalance with the US so a trade war will hurt them more than us.

I must have missed Clinton's attack on the currency manipulation viewpoint. How would he make allowing the Chinese a built in advantage a winning strategy?

[cleller]

I can respond briefly to the academic success aspect. Other cultures are sending their best students here to learn and come home. One issue we are having in higher education is that while the US has the best graduate programs in the world, many of those graduate students are from other countries. When they get their degrees, they go back where they're from. This leads to a shortage of elite domestic talent in science and mathematics. This indicates a broken education system somewhere if we're not churning out scientists and mathematicians like we used to. Maybe we should emulate other cultures to rebuild our elementary and secondary educational system.

By the way, I'm in the Humanities. There are plenty of PhDs in my field. We don't have a shortage of liberal pansy English and History professors to worry about : )

Dr. Michio Kaku lays it out pretty clearly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

I've seen that Kaku guy on PBS a bunch. Not only is he a genius, he has a way of connecting with "normal" people, and getting them interested in what he's saying.
I don't think there's any fixing our public schools on a large scale. Too many welfare-bred irresponsible idiots (kids and parent). They drag the classes down to such a low level it impossible to get anything done. Can't flunk them, then its the school's fault.

[KantoSooner]

Mid, I think you're ignoring some of the deeper things a culture does that establish its long term influence.
You can have a suckie school system...and yet still have a cultural love of learning and respect for the learned that influences neighboring civilizations. Neither Rome nor Greece had schools at all, but they both, in their way (Greece more in philosophy and art, Rome more in engineering) honored learning and set 'The West' on a path that ultimately prepared for the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, the industrial rev and the modern world as it is known today.
The critical thing for our cultrue today is a willingness to be self-critical and to adopt solutions to our problems from others if those are superior.
I see evidence of this in a lot of what has gone on in the last 50 years. We have fixed, to a great degree, the racist and classist sclerosis that threatened to turn our nation into a zombie. It hasn't been easy or cheap, but we are far more resilient today than the America of 1940, 1920 or 1900. We are also fundamentally more open to and more engaged with the rest of the world. This is a fantastic development as it facilitates the uptake of ideas from around the globe and does not limit us to what we can develop domestically...and it exposes the rest of the world to us.
America today is the most culturally influential nation that has ever existed, bar none. The fact that we do not dominate each and every aspect of global culture should not take away from this fact.
In the grander culture kampf, folks, we're so far out in front we can't even see our competition. There are break dancers and models of the Statue of Liberty in Tien An Men square. Ponder that. Contemplate Hindi Rap. Note Russian kids holding lighters over their heads at rock concerts. And note local peoples wanting to 'do their own thing'. Far from collapse, we live in an American world.
When I was raising my daughter in Japan, I figured it was 2,500 years of Japanese culture, an extended family numbering in the dozens and blanket exposure to language/food/clothing and the like on one side. On the other was me and Mickie Mouse. It was a fair fight. The Mouse won. She's in college in Chickasha.
The state of our culture is excellent. Go on about your business.

[TUSooner]

Mid, I think you're ignoring some of the deeper things a culture does that establish its long term influence.
You can have a suckie school system...and yet still have a cultural love of learning and respect for the learned that influences neighboring civilizations. Neither Rome nor Greece had schools at all, but they both, in their way (Greece more in philosophy and art, Rome more in engineering) honored learning and set 'The West' on a path that ultimately prepared for the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, the industrial rev and the modern world as it is known today.
The critical thing for our cultrue today is a willingness to be self-critical and to adopt solutions to our problems from others if those are superior.
I see evidence of this in a lot of what has gone on in the last 50 years. We have fixed, to a great degree, the racist and classist sclerosis that threatened to turn our nation into a zombie. It hasn't been easy or cheap, but we are far more resilient today than the America of 1940, 1920 or 1900. We are also fundamentally more open to and more engaged with the rest of the world. This is a fantastic development as it facilitates the uptake of ideas from around the globe and does not limit us to what we can develop domestically...and it exposes the rest of the world to us.
America today is the most culturally influential nation that has ever existed, bar none. The fact that we do not dominate each and every aspect of global culture should not take away from this fact.
In the grander culture kampf, folks, we're so far out in front we can't even see our competition. There are break dancers and models of the Statue of Liberty in Tien An Men square. Ponder that. Contemplate Hindi Rap. Note Russian kids holding lighters over their heads at rock concerts. And note local peoples wanting to 'do their own thing'. Far from collapse, we live in an American world.
When I was raising my daughter in Japan, I figured it was 2,500 years of Japanese culture, an extended family numbering in the dozens and blanket exposure to language/food/clothing and the like on one side. On the other was me and Mickie Mouse. It was a fair fight. The Mouse won. She's in college in Chickasha.
The state of our culture is excellent. Go on about your business.
...for better or worse.:joyous:

[KantoSooner]

It's not required to be pretty or logical or linear. Ours more closely resembles 8 year olds playing soccer. But so far it's gotten the job done.

[FaninAma]

It's pretty ballsy for a culture which has been evolving for oh.. a bit over 200 years now, arguably much less if we're talking about modern culture to be bragging about inherent superiority. Take the Chinese culture, it's been around for thousands of years, but was it "superior" when the Mongols were sacking Peking or when the Japanese invaded? That Japenese culture looked pretty great until its central tenants of invincibility and a divine Emperor were shattered by a couple of a-bombs.

The Romans had one of those superior cultures to, but they didn't seem so superior to the Vandals.

History remains to say whether this culture of ours is a flash in the pan or something more permanent. All of the doomsday preppers would disagree that we're the next Rome.

For now, I say take a look around the world to see what works and emulate that. If other countries are beating us in education, we need to learn something from them. Currently, our military aside, we are culturally what WAS a once great nation, but since, we have fallen behind in many areas where it counts--healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc. Yeah, we have this great military, probably the greatest the world has ever seen. It remains to be shown whether we actually need such a thing or not.

To respond briefly I would contend that the rate of technological advancements that are available to all cultures and the financial coalescing of the world's economies around a global economy has led to fewer critical advantages of one society/culture/country over another.

It has also led to increased competitiveness which in turn has made the failure to keep up with the rest of the world because of a weaker financial foundation(i.e. high debt and high level of government spending) in a specific cuture or deteriorating education standards/results in said culture more critical in maintaining one's competitiveness.

We can also discuss the specific causes of a culture losing it's financial or educational advantages. I would contend that they are directly related.

[Midtowner]

To respond briefly I would contend that the rate of technological advancements that are available to all cultures and the financial coalescing of the world's economies around a global economy has led to fewer critical advantages of one society/culture/country over another.

It has also led to increased competitiveness which in turn has made the failure to keep up with the rest of the world because of a weaker financial foundation(i.e. high debt and high level of government spending) in a specific cuture or deteriorating education standards/results in said culture more critical in maintaining one's competitiveness.

We can also discuss the specific causes of a culture losing it's financial or educational advantages. I would contend that they are directly related.

The thing is, we don't have to accept decreasing financial and educational advantages. The problem we have is that we maintain this huge military and this albatross of federal entitlement spending and other waste which takes away from us investing in our future. I'll trade missile destroyers, submarines, overseas bases and fighter jets for better schools and infrastructure every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Our problem in Washington is the same problem we have with our financial system. It's structural. Short term feel-good positioning is more important than investment in long-term prosperity. Does investment in military infrastructure result in great jobs and booming private industries to help support our political elite? Yep. Would making sure every student in public school received the opportunity of having a highly qualified teacher, an environment conducive to learning and a system to ensure our students are safe in their own homes from their idiot parents do much for the political elite at all? Nope. Therein lies the structural problem.

[C&CDean]

Y'all sure talk pretty, but are you actually saying anything?

[KantoSooner]

Chinese soldiers during WWII used to sieve their crap to recover undigested kernels of corn to return to the cook pot.

A similar process here yields some pretty good stuff.

[SoonerKnight]

Funny, though, how the least educated still manage to be the least informed politically.


http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/22/science-say-gop-voters-better-informed-open-minded/

Daily caller is your link! WOW! I fixed it for you! Hey Republicans I had to endure 8 god awful years of Bush and now you can deal with it. Your party is going into the crapper. Fox news tells more lies and misinformation than the truth. Your not looking at anything but controlling the house if you do not change and adapt to the changing country. Also, Oklahoma is probably one of the worst states to live in. Right to Work lowers wages and your standard of living. I know I have lived and worked in Oklahoma and now live and work in a pro union state. I make a lot more money here than I ever would in Oklahoma.

Get OVER IT YOUR PARTY LOST!!! HAHAHAHA!

[okie52]

Daily caller is your link! WOW! I fixed it for you! Hey Republicans I had to endure 8 god awful years of Bush and now you can deal with it. Your party is going into the crapper. Fox news tells more lies and misinformation than the truth. Your not looking at anything but controlling the house if you do not change and adapt to the changing country. Also, Oklahoma is probably one of the worst states to live in. Right to Work lowers wages and your standard of living. I know I have lived and worked in Oklahoma and now live and work in a pro union state. I make a lot more money here than I ever would in Oklahoma.

Get OVER IT YOUR PARTY LOST!!! HAHAHAHA!

Gee, sorry you left. Are you now teaching economics at Harvard or Princeton?

[C&CDean]

Daily caller is your link! WOW! I fixed it for you! Hey Republicans I had to endure 8 god awful years of Bush and now you can deal with it. Your party is going into the crapper. Fox news tells more lies and misinformation than the truth. Your not looking at anything but controlling the house if you do not change and adapt to the changing country. Also, Oklahoma is probably one of the worst states to live in. Right to Work lowers wages and your standard of living. I know I have lived and worked in Oklahoma and now live and work in a pro union state. I make a lot more money here than I ever would in Oklahoma.

Get OVER IT YOUR PARTY LOST!!! HAHAHAHA!

And this, boys and girls, is what's wrong with America. Congratutions for being another partisan, Obama goo-gobbling dildonic doouchebag. Glad you're gone.

[KantoSooner]

If you make so much more solely on the basis of the union organizing laws of the state in which you live, I conclude:

1. Your skills aren't worth too much.
2. Your company already has a plan to move operations to a right-to-work state and thus your future prospects are decidedly dim.

[C&CDean]

If you make so much more solely on the basis of the union organizing laws of the state in which you live, I conclude:

1. Your skills aren't worth too much.
2. Your company already has a plan to move operations to a right-to-work state and thus your future prospects are decidedly dim.

Troof right here.

[olevetonahill]

If you make so much more solely on the basis of the union organizing laws of the state in which you live, I conclude:

1. Your skills aren't worth too much.
2. Your company already has a plan to move operations to a right-to-work state and thus your future prospects are decidedly dim.


Troof right here.

No way his company movin, He's a Deputy there

[LiveLaughLove]

Daily caller is your link! WOW! I fixed it for you! Hey Republicans I had to endure 8 god awful years of Bush and now you can deal with it. Your party is going into the crapper. Fox news tells more lies and misinformation than the truth. Your not looking at anything but controlling the house if you do not change and adapt to the changing country. Also, Oklahoma is probably one of the worst states to live in. Right to Work lowers wages and your standard of living. I know I have lived and worked in Oklahoma and now live and work in a pro union state. I make a lot more money here than I ever would in Oklahoma.

Get OVER IT YOUR PARTY LOST!!! HAHAHAHA!

And yet another one that didn't have the balls to show up here BEFORE the election comes here acting high and mighty AFTER the election.

Thanks for joining in, your post here was very insightful for sure. Keep it up and please feel free to not come to Oklahoma when your state goes tits up (and it will).

[KantoSooner]

No way his company movin, He's a Deputy there

D'oh! I should have known from his avi. A Barney Fife, for sure.

[TitoMorelli]

Daily caller is your link! WOW! I fixed it for you! Hey Republicans I had to endure 8 god awful years of Bush and now you can deal with it. Your party is going into the crapper. Fox news tells more lies and misinformation than the truth. Your not looking at anything but controlling the house if you do not change and adapt to the changing country. Also, Oklahoma is probably one of the worst states to live in. Right to Work lowers wages and your standard of living. I know I have lived and worked in Oklahoma and now live and work in a pro union state. I make a lot more money here than I ever would in Oklahoma.

Get OVER IT YOUR PARTY LOST!!! HAHAHAHA!

Daily Caller didn't conduct the survey, Pew did. Of course you decided to play "kill the messenger" without even bothering to read the article, or do any research yourself.

A candidate I voted for may have lost the last election. But from the responses posted here since your little visit, I think it's pretty clear who the resident loser is.

[Scott D]

Everyone that is arguing for either choice is the resident loser :D

[SoonerKnight]

If you make so much more solely on the basis of the union organizing laws of the state in which you live, I conclude:

1. Your skills aren't worth too much.
2. Your company already has a plan to move operations to a right-to-work state and thus your future prospects are decidedly dim.

First off I am in the field of LE. So NO outsourcing for me thank you very much.

[SoonerKnight]

And this, boys and girls, is what's wrong with America. Congratutions for being another partisan, Obama goo-gobbling dildonic doouchebag. Glad you're gone.

I am actually not a that partisan. I am tired of all the hate towards the prez. I was raised that you respect the office. Attacking the president for every little thing and it is these personal attack. He wasn't born here etc.... My garnd father served in 3 wars.... My father served in 2 wars and I served 6 years in the Navy and I have nbever seen so much hate and vitrol towards one man. Seems off to me.

[rock on sooner]

I am actually not a that partisan. I am tired of all the hate towards the prez. I was raised that you respect the office. Attacking the president for every little thing and it is these personal attack. He wasn't born here etc.... My garnd father served in 3 wars.... My father served in 2 wars and I served 6 years in the Navy and I have nbever seen so much hate and vitrol towards one man. Seems off to me.



Fair statement, SoonerKnight. As a vet, my thanks to you and your family
for the service to our great country...As much as I disliked Dubya, I still
had respect for the office. It is my hope that the 535 monkeys can find
common ground, eat bananas together and fix our problems.

[LiveLaughLove]

I am actually not a that partisan. I am tired of all the hate towards the prez. I was raised that you respect the office. Attacking the president for every little thing and it is these personal attack. He wasn't born here etc.... My garnd father served in 3 wars.... My father served in 2 wars and I served 6 years in the Navy and I have nbever seen so much hate and vitrol towards one man. Seems off to me.

You must have slept through the Bush years. He was called everything under the sun, some of the most vile disgusting things imaginable. Hitler, Stalin, Stalin and Hitler rolled in to one, Satan, mass murderer, war criminal, etc.

And that was just the press.

Funny thing about the birth certificate thing that no one seems to remember or has conveniently forgotten. The press demanded proof from John McCain of his citizenship, because he was born in Panama (pretty sure it was Panama). He gave it and that ended it. They curiously never demanded the same from Obama, which is what started the whole Kenya thing.

Still, if you were so outraged you should have spoke up earlier. To come here now after the fact, crowing like a banty rooster smacks of woosyness in the first degree.

I think Obama sucks, big. I think he is hell bent on marginalizing America because he sees it as an Imperialist country. I think there is no doubt that his vision of an ideal America and mine are not copacetic. I understand he is the President, and I have always respected the office, but I absolutely despise this man and won't hide that and don't care in the slightest who all here like that or not.

[hawaii 5-0]

Oh, and he's Black.


Well, part-Black.



5-0

[olevetonahill]

Oh, and he's Black.


Well, part-Black.



5-0

He aint either! No way this country will ever elect a N****** nor a dayum womans .

[kevpks]

Oh, and he's Black.


Well, part-Black.



5-0

No way. He's white. Chris Rock makes a good case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDxOSjgl5Z4

[LiveLaughLove]

Oh, and he's Black.


Well, part-Black.



5-0

Yeah that explains it. Makes it easy to just say we dislike his skin color, because no way could we dislike his policies.

I wanted Alan west to run for president. I like his policies and don't give a crap about his skin color, but whatever makes you think you are morally superior have at it.

The race card has been played out. It means nothing any more.

[SoonerKnight]

You must have slept through the Bush years. He was called everything under the sun, some of the most vile disgusting things imaginable. Hitler, Stalin, Stalin and Hitler rolled in to one, Satan, mass murderer, war criminal, etc.

And that was just the press.

Funny thing about the birth certificate thing that no one seems to remember or has conveniently forgotten. The press demanded proof from John McCain of his citizenship, because he was born in Panama (pretty sure it was Panama). He gave it and that ended it. They curiously never demanded the same from Obama, which is what started the whole Kenya thing.

Still, if you were so outraged you should have spoke up earlier. To come here now after the fact, crowing like a banty rooster smacks of woosyness in the first degree.

I think Obama sucks, big. I think he is hell bent on marginalizing America because he sees it as an Imperialist country. I think there is no doubt that his vision of an ideal America and mine are not copacetic. I understand he is the President, and I have always respected the office, but I absolutely despise this man and won't hide that and don't care in the slightest who all here like that or not.


Actually before the election I have made few (very few comments) on the election because I was busy. Now when I log into this place it shows comments that people make in different forums. My point is that I am sick and tired of all the hate and name calling. I never called Bush anything that bad and supported him after 9/11 (at least until he opened his mouth). I never hated the man. I disagreed with his policies and did not like how we were used to go after Iraq.

I do not agree with everthing this president has done. Nor do I agree with everything he wants to do. The bigger picture here is that Romney was not a good choice. The Republicans spent 2 years stalling and hating the president that they never tried to do the people's work. They were so obsessed with defeating the president that they decided that was more important.

As to those who think the state I live in is going to go tits up. This is not very accurate. First, we have democrat govenor that is a doosh. I can not stand him but the guy that ran against him was as bright as telephone pole. Second, the state legislature just turned into a dem super majority in both chambers because the republicans had their priorities in the wrong area. The state has a balanced budget as required by tate law. State employes have not gotten raises in 8 years. The state this year has half a trillion surplus actually and now they are debating what to do next.

In my job I am unionized and my union negotiates our 3 year contract. If it was a right to work state that would not happen. I have received raises while the rest of the city employees have not. My angency is one of the largest angencies in the state and we were the lowest paid. Several years ago our union made concessions on pay and benefits with the promise that when the city sees better years we would be taken care of. The city instead tried to screw us and we had to fight for a pay raise. We went to arbitration and won. I have my reasons for my politics because of my experience.

[SoonerKnight]

Yeah that explains it. Makes it easy to just say we dislike his skin color, because no way could we dislike his policies.

I wanted Alan west to run for president. I like his policies and don't give a crap about his skin color, but whatever makes you think you are morally superior have at it.

The race card has been played out. It means nothing any more.

And what does Allen West stand for?

[C&CDean]

And what does Allen West stand for?

White people values?

Obama couldn't carry West's jock.

[Curly Bill]

I am actually not a that partisan. I am tired of all the hate towards the prez. I was raised that you respect the office. Attacking the president for every little thing and it is these personal attack. He wasn't born here etc.... My garnd father served in 3 wars.... My father served in 2 wars and I served 6 years in the Navy and I have nbever seen so much hate and vitrol towards one man. Seems off to me.


You'd think a guy in law enforcement might be somewhat tough. You come across as a pansy-a**ed little crybaby! They're picking on the President, that's just not right, wah, wah, wah...

[SoonerKnight]

You'd think a guy in law enforcement might be somewhat tough. You come across as a pansy-a**ed little crybaby! They're picking on the President, that's just not right, wah, wah, wah...

WOW! You sound really tough there! You state your opinion and I stated mine. Has nothing to do with crying about I'm just getting tired of the horse****. But I guess that is typical if someone agrees with you then it's ok but if they don't then your a cry baby. I can assure you that you would be unable to do my job.

[SoonerKnight]

White people values?

Obama couldn't carry West's jock.

Obviously noone can answer this question. Apparently whatever he stood for was not good enough for the people in his district.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Obviously noone can answer this question. Apparently whatever he stood for was voter frauded out of the people in his district.

FIFY

[Skysooner]

Allen West dumbed his way into defeat. Being too partisan and controversial is no way to get reelected.

[okie52]

Allen West dumbed his way into defeat. Being too partisan and controversial is no way to get reelected.

It works for a lot of dems...see Maxine waters.

[Curly Bill]

WOW! You sound really tough there! You state your opinion and I stated mine. Has nothing to do with crying about I'm just getting tired of the horse****. But I guess that is typical if someone agrees with you then it's ok but if they don't then your a cry baby. I can assure you that you would be unable to do my job.

LOL...I assure you, you don't have a clue.

[Turd_Ferguson]

It works for a lot of dems...see Maxine waters.and Mr. "Mayor-for-Life" Marion Barry...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

It works for a lot of dems...see Maxine waters.

ZZZZing.....

Sky, there are a whole lot more Dims corrupt and partisan than West ever was. How about Jesse Jackson Jr.? Hmm??? that ****er is trying to get disability before he goes. that MOFO just needs to go to jail, period. How about his wife? Lets add Pelosi to the list and her stock trades, how about that ****** from NYC - Rangel, then you got Weiner and Massa...

Just saying, you are full of it...

[Skysooner]

ZZZZing.....

Sky, there are a whole lot more Dims corrupt and partisan than West ever was. How about Jesse Jackson Jr.? Hmm??? that ****er is trying to get disability before he goes. that MOFO just needs to go to jail, period. How about his wife? Lets add Pelosi to the list and her stock trades, how about that ****** from NYC - Rangel, then you got Weiner and Massa...

Just saying, you are full of it...

Allen West put himself out there as very controversial. That is no way to get reelected in a district where you are not entirely safe. Jesse Jackson Jr. is a disgrace, but he is also in a safe district. You have to play to what your constituents are. I'm not debating JJ Jr since he is an idiot and so are the people of his district.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

West was out there, not sure about his district, but I do think fraud has occurred there. Shennanigans by the Election chief and 140% voters turn out in St. Lucia, something is wrong.

[TitoMorelli]

Interesting read by NYT's conservative writer, Ross Douthat--from today's column, titled "The Liberal Gloat" -



...Liberals look at the Obama majority and see a coalition bound together by enlightened values — reason rather than superstition, tolerance rather than bigotry, equality rather than hierarchy. But it’s just as easy to see a coalition created by social disintegration and unified by economic fear.

Consider the Hispanic vote. Are Democrats winning Hispanics because they put forward a more welcoming face than Republicans do — one more in keeping with America’s tradition of assimilating migrants yearning to breathe free? Yes, up to a point. But they’re also winning recent immigrants because those immigrants often aren’t assimilating successfully — or worse, are assimilating downward, thanks to rising out-of-wedlock birthrates and high dropout rates. The Democratic edge among Hispanics depends heavily on these darker trends: the weaker that families and communities are, the more necessary government support inevitably seems.

Likewise with the growing number of unmarried Americans, especially unmarried women. Yes, social issues like abortion help explain why these voters lean Democratic. But the more important explanation is that single life is generally more insecure and chaotic than married life, and single life with children — which is now commonplace for women under 30 — is almost impossible to navigate without the support the welfare state provides.

Or consider the secular vote, which has been growing swiftly and tilts heavily toward Democrats. The liberal image of a non-churchgoing American is probably the “spiritual but not religious” seeker, or the bright young atheist reading Richard Dawkins. But the typical unchurched American is just as often an underemployed working-class man, whose secularism is less an intellectual choice than a symptom of his disconnection from community in general.

What unites all of these stories is the growing failure of America’s local associations — civic, familial, religious — to foster stability, encourage solidarity and make mobility possible.

This is a crisis that the Republican Party often badly misunderstands, casting Democratic-leaning voters as lazy moochers or spoiled children seeking “gifts” (as a certain former Republican presidential nominee would have it) rather than recognizing the reality of their economic struggles.

But if conservatives don’t acknowledge the crisis’s economic component, liberalism often seems indifferent to its deeper social roots. The progressive bias toward the capital-F Future, the old left-wing suspicion of faith and domesticity, the fact that Democrats have benefited politically from these trends — all of this makes it easy for liberals to just celebrate the emerging America, to minimize the costs of disrupted families and hollowed-out communities, and to treat the places where Americans have traditionally found solidarity outside the state (like the churches threatened by the Obama White House’s contraceptive mandate) as irritants or threats....


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/opinion/sunday/douthat-The-Liberal-Gloat.html?smid=tw-share

[TitoMorelli]

Another item I ran across last week concerning social issues mentioned that the two primary social issues 20-30 years ago were crime and welfare, as opposed to today's focus on abortion and gay marriage--



In Reagan’s time, the main social issues were crime and welfare. It is easy to forget, at a distance of more than 30 years, how large a role these issues played in Reagan’s career and in the political debates of the time. Politically, conservatives won the battles over crime and welfare. Our cities (save only Detroit) were saved by tough law enforcement, and AFDC was repealed in the historic welfare reform act. Since the 1990s, neither crime nor welfare has figured prominently as an issue in national elections.

Starting in the 1990s and 2000s, when people talked about the social issues, they basically meant abortion. Republicans had generally opposed abortion all along, but it was a secondary issue; politicians like Reagan rarely talked about it. But with crime and welfare mostly off the table as political issues, abortion became the issue that defined social conservatism. Then, within the last decade, gay marriage–an idea that was virtually non-existent in Reagan’s time–has suddenly become a prominent issue. When we talk about the social issues today, we mean, pretty much exclusively, abortion and gay marriage.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/11/where-do-republicans-go-from-here-the-social-issues.php

Interesting how things evolve, and how easy it is to forget the hot-button issues of a generation ago.

[Midtowner]

White people values?

Obama couldn't carry West's jock.

POTUS > unemployed.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

POTUS = ****ing douschebag < Congressman West, a hero and served his country unlike The Socialist .

FIFY.

[FaninAma]

Any updates on West's recount?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Any updates on West's recount?Last I read, time was up and he lost.

[rock on sooner]

Any updates on West's recount?

Yeah, he yelled for a recount and they did. Result is he's farther behind than
when they started the recount.

[MsProudSooner]

Any Republicans who think they lost because of their strategy or because of 'gifts' are lying to themselves. They lost because people disagreed with their stand on issues.

They lost because they are percieved as the party of corporate America.

They lost because they refuse to understand that it takes a combination of increased revenue (as in raising the taxes on the rich) and reduced spending to lower the deficit.

They lost because they had too many candidates who couldn't go 24 hours without making some kind of stupid remark about rape.

They lost because the majority of Americans don't want America to be built an image that Ayn Rand would like.

They lost because abortion and gay marriage are not the most important issues facing this country.

They lost because they didn't understand how many honest, hardworking people desperately need healthcare reform.

They lost in the same way that all presidential elections are won or lost. They lost the moderate voters because they have veered too far to the right.

[XingTheRubicon]

Any Republicans who think they lost because of their strategy or because of 'gifts' are lying to themselves. They lost because people disagreed with their stand on issues.

They lost because they are percieved as the party of corporate America.

They lost because they refuse to understand that it takes a combination of increased revenue (as in raising the taxes on the rich) and reduced spending to lower the deficit.

They lost because they had too many candidates who couldn't go 24 hours without making some kind of stupid remark about rape.

They lost because the majority of Americans don't want America to be built an image that Ayn Rand would like.

They lost because abortion and gay marriage are not the most important issues facing this country.

They lost because they didn't understand how many honest, hardworking people desperately need healthcare reform.

They lost in the same way that all presidential elections are won or lost. They lost the moderate voters because they have veered too far to the right.


R's lost the poverty vote by 7 million.


Obama won the total popular vote by 3.5 million.



The producers vs. the takers.


takers won...congrats, enjoy your food stamp turkey

[FaninAma]

They lost because the majority of the electorate is ill-informed on issues, especially economic issues.

They lost because the electorate is ignorant of past budget negotiations when they agreed to tax increases and the Democrats reneged on promised budget cuts.

They lost because they are not as good as the Democrats at expanding the government subsidized social safety net which is what the electorate wants until it comes time to pay for it.

They lost because thay don't stand on their own principals but try to be a weak version of the democrats.

They lost because they do not uphold Constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties.

[Curly Bill]

Republicans lost because they're not as good at buying votes with our tax money as the donks are. Peeps by and large voted for the party they think will give them the most, with them having to do the least to get it.

[MsProudSooner]

And they will keep losing until they get rid of the wackos and nutcases that have infested their party.

They will keep losing until they realize that they are being played for fools by the like of the Koch brothers.

[Curly Bill]

And they will keep losing until they get rid of the wackos and nutcases that have infested their party.

They will keep losing until they realize that they are being played for fools by the like of the Koch brothers.

Yawn....

[TitoMorelli]

Yawn....

Exactly. Just another Obamabot who didn't have the cojones to show up on this forum before the election.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

And they will keep losing until they get rid of the wackos and nutcases that have infested their party.

They will keep losing until they realize that they are being played for fools by the like of the Koch brothers.
You are misinformed. The government does not have revenue, they do not make anything. they take taxes from people and yours will be going up now...

The Kochs are not the problem as long as you do not mention Soros and his ilk.

Wackos and nutcases do not reside in the dim party? You kidding?

[Scott D]

They lost because the majority of the electorate is ill-informed on issues, especially economic issues.

They lost because the electorate is ignorant of past budget negotiations when they agreed to tax increases and the Democrats reneged on promised budget cuts.

They lost because they are not as good as the Democrats at expanding the government subsidized social safety net which is what the electorate wants until it comes time to pay for it.

They lost because thay don't stand on their own principals but try to be a weak version of the democrats.

They lost because they do not uphold Constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties.

you forgot They lost because they clearly have no clue how to convey their message in a way that people can get behind.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I voted for obama because I don't like white people.

[Curly Bill]

I voted against Obammy because I'm racist against the Mooslims.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I voted for obama because he listens to better music.

[FaninAma]

you forgot They lost because they clearly have no clue how to convey their message in a way that people can get behind.


That's because they try to appeal to everybody and so nobody knows what they really stand for so it is easy for the Democrats to use the GOP's wishy-washiness and hazy principles against them.

At least with the Dems you know what you are getting....bigger government, more government spending and ever more liberal social policies that relieve individuals of personal resposibility for their own actions.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

At least with the Dems you know what you are getting....bigger government, more government spending and ever more liberal social policies that relieve individuals of personal resposibility for their own actions.

Just like Leahy's new assault on private communications. His new bill due up next week will allow any government entity to read your emails, twitters and facebook pages without a warrant. Man, is that Orwellian or what???

[Scott D]

That's because they try to appeal to everybody and so nobody knows what they really stand for so it is easy for the Democrats to use the GOP's wishy-washiness and hazy principles against them.

At least with the Dems you know what you are getting....bigger government, more government spending and ever more liberal social policies that relieve individuals of personal resposibility for their own actions.

if you think I support the Dems, you'd be wrong. that being said, why is it that things that guys like Jindal are saying are still going unheard by those that be. Are they that afraid of rocking the boat by offending so called conservative radio and television hosts? They don't need to pander to win the Asian vote or even the legal Hispanic vote. What they do need to do is convey their message as to not sound as xenophobic and then allowing the Dems to exploit that perception.

[TUSooner]

if you think I support the Dems, you'd be wrong. that being said, why is it that things that guys like Jindal are saying are still going unheard by those that be. Are they that afraid of rocking the boat by offending so called conservative radio and television hosts? They don't need to pander to win the Asian vote or even the legal Hispanic vote. What they do need to do is convey their message as to not sound as xenophobic and then allowing the Dems to exploit that perception.

Those things Jindal, Christie, et al. are saying get rejected here because some of our fellow posters ARE the nutty wing of the Party, and they don't want be left out.

[jkjsooner]

^^^^^^ This!!!
this country is going downhill, free thought is being stifled, while the do nothings get free **** and hand outs from the people we used to hold in high esteem, the working successful people.

What is all this free stuff that we're now getting that we didn't get 10 years ago? It makes a good talking point but contradicts reality.

The only two things that I have seen that have changed are Obamacare (which forces the poor to either get insurance or pay a tax penalty - hardly a gift) and extended unemployment benefits. I don't know the status of the unemployment benefits but I know they were a response to the economic climate and were designed to revert back to the norm.

So please tell me what Obama is giving away.

[jkjsooner]

They lost because the electorate is ignorant of past budget negotiations when they agreed to tax increases and the Democrats reneged on promised budget cuts.

Please give me the details about these tax increases. I haven't heard a single Republican agree to tax increases - at least not rate increases.

[LiveLaughLove]

And they will keep losing until they get rid of the wackos and nutcases that have infested their party.

They will keep losing until they realize that they are being played for fools by the like of the Koch brothers.

Do you have any more liberal talking points you can spew?

Obama made abortion and gay marriage an issue. Republicans didn't change their stance on either of those issues from what it has been the last 50 years.

The electorate to the tune of over 60% believe rich people pay smaller percentage of taxes than poor and middle class.

That alone is so staggeringly idiotic that its breathtaking.

I contend we ran a way too moderate candidate to offer a real choice. 3 million McCain voters stayed home. Had they come out for Romney he would have won.

[LiveLaughLove]

Please give me the details about these tax increases. I haven't heard a single Republican agree to tax increases - at least not rate increases.

Please give me the details about the serious spending cuts the democrats have proposed.

There aren't any.

[Ton Loc]

Do you have any more liberal talking points you can spew?

Obama made abortion and gay marriage an issue. Republicans didn't change their stance on either of those issues from what it has been the last 50 years.

The electorate to the tune of over 60% believe rich people pay smaller percentage of taxes than poor and middle class.

That alone is so staggeringly idiotic that its breathtaking.

I contend we ran a way too moderate candidate to offer a real choice. 3 million McCain voters stayed home. Had they come out for Romney he would have won.

Gay marriage and abortion were issues before Obama. The crazy part is that by and large the Republicans have not changed their views on the two subjects. +1 for being out of touch

Good luck getting any Repulican to address the true differences in taxes that the rich and the poor pay. Regardless of the truth - just them talking about it is a bad idea. Perception always beats reality and no one wants to see a perceived rich powerful white dude talk about how they really are paying the vast majority of the taxes.

I wish people would talk about real problems. Not perceived problems or made up problems (marijauna, gay marriage, any social issue) that take the focus from the actual problems.

[Scott D]

I contend we ran a way too moderate candidate to offer a real choice. 3 million McCain voters stayed home. Had they come out for Romney he would have won.

I contend you ran the worst possible choices as candidates, and that is where the failure began.

[jkjsooner]

Please give me the details about the serious spending cuts the democrats have proposed.

There aren't any.

The Republicans have gone to the bargaining table saying that they will never agree to ANY tax rate increase. Democrats have always said that spending cuts are on the table.

Whether Democrats would be willing to cut enough is debatable but they're not the ones going to the bargaining table with a hard line drawn in the sand.

I think if you polled Republicans in confidence they would be willing to tax rate increases and they would agree that that has to be part of the solution but they all signed that pledge and know they can't get reelected if they do so.

[jkjsooner]

And nobody has told me what Obama is giving away. It's great to hear Fox News talk about Obama's gifts for four years but let's see the details.

If we're talking about protecting existing programs, it's not like McCain or Romney were willing to cut social security or medicare from anyone who is retired or will retire in the next decade or so. That means they were both willing to exclude the one demographic that is or will cause the most problems in the future. (It's clear to anyone that you can't solve the fiscal problems without reduced benefits to the baby boomers.) They hardly have the moral authority to talk about Obama pandering to certain groups.

If the Republicans really want to fix our SS and medicare problems and are willing to reduce benefits to all of us (baby boomers included) then they would have my ear. I've yet to hear one that has the cojones to do this.

[LiveLaughLove]

The Republicans have gone to the bargaining table saying that they will never agree to ANY tax rate increase. Democrats have always said that spending cuts are on the table.

Whether Democrats would be willing to cut enough is debatable but they're not the ones going to the bargaining table with a hard line drawn in the sand.

I think if you polled Republicans in confidence they would be willing to tax rate increases and they would agree that that has to be part of the solution but they all signed that pledge and know they can't get reelected if they do so.

And Democrats cannot do any meaningful cuts and get re-elected. After all, that would make them racist bigot homophobes, or something like that.

Democrats say spending cuts are on the table, but that is pure BS. Name an actual cut outside of defense of any substance that they have proposed, not just the generic "on the table" crud. That means nothing.

In actuality, nothing is on the table with the Democrats. They haven't proposed a budget in years in Congress, and the one Obama proposed got zero votes from either side of the aisle.

The only thing the Democrats are serious about is playing politics, and getting the media to go along with their meme (which isn't hard to do).

[KantoSooner]

One person's opinion:

Obama presented the opportunity to vote for a guy who believes that government is the core/center/most important part of our economy and society. A guy who doesn't, fundamentally, believe that an individual is worth very much or capable of much of worth.

Romney presented the opportunity to vote for a guy who believes that government should be the protector of traditional values and the status quo in our economic life. Thus, government's prime role should be to monitor the personal lives of citizens to make sure that they do not deviate from a pastiche of behaviours defined as 'traditional' by a panel of church leaders and to provide tax and fiscal support for investment bankers.

Given this yummy choice, I would have voted Libertarian, except that Oklahoma is gerrymandered to allow only the two established parties to run candidates. So I no voted. Didn't pick either nauseating option, but voted all the local stuff.

We lived through four years of Obama, we'll live through the next four. Maybe the 'pubs will awaken and go back to their fiscally conservative, socially libertarian roots. Could happen.

[jkjsooner]

And Democrats cannot do any meaningful cuts and get re-elected. After all, that would make them racist bigot homophobes, or something like that.

Democrats say spending cuts are on the table, but that is pure BS. Name an actual cut outside of defense of any substance that they have proposed, not just the generic "on the table" crud.

Again, maybe the Democrats will not bargain in good faith but the Republicans initial stance is essentially that they will not bargain at all when it comes to tax rate increases.

You're projecting that the Democrats will not agree to any meaningful cuts the Republicans propose. That may be true but it is just a projection at this point. What isn't a projection is the fact that Republicans have taken tax rate increases off the table. We can't even get far enough into the process to see what Democrats will do.

I see you want Democrats to propose the strict cuts. Let's face it. That's not the way an agreement is going to be worked out. The Democrats are going to agree to some of the Republican cuts and the Republicans are going to agree to some of the Democrat's tax increases. You're not going to see Democrats propose many cuts and you're not going to see Republicans propose any tax increases.


The only thing the Democrats are serious about is playing politics, and getting the media to go along with their meme (which isn't hard to do).

And the only thing the Republicans are serious about is making sure they get reelected by maintaining their no tax increase pledge, no matter how much they know that this problem has to be approached from two sides.

[jkjsooner]

One person's opinion:

Obama presented the opportunity to vote for a guy who believes that government is the core/center/most important part of our economy and society. A guy who doesn't, fundamentally, believe that an individual is worth very much or capable of much of worth.

I can't speak for Obama but this Democrat disagrees with this statement and I don't think you'll find many Democrats who agree with this statement (or at least will admit it).

I'll speak for myself. I don't at all agree that the government is the core/center/most important part of our economy. I believe that we have achieved prosperity through capitalism. However, I think there must be some forms of regulation. I believe the government should stay out as much as possible but I don't believe that government has no role in our economic system either.

Just watching the Dust Bowl show from Ken Burns shows a lot of what the government can do. Government programs didn't cause it to start raining but they sure as heck made farming in the Great Planes less susceptible to droughts. If too many of your neighbors aren't keeping a cover crop on their land and it is negatively impacting your ability to make a living farming then there is a role for government to step in.

You present it as an all-or-nothing proposition. We either want government to be the driving force or we want no government involvement whatsoever. Most of us are in the middle ground somewhere and as I see it the Republican party has begun excluding those in the middle.

[okie52]

And nobody has told me what Obama is giving away. It's great to hear Fox News talk about Obama's gifts for four years but let's see the details.

If we're talking about protecting existing programs, it's not like McCain or Romney were willing to cut social security or medicare from anyone who is retired or will retire in the next decade or so. That means they were both willing to exclude the one demographic that is or will cause the most problems in the future. (It's clear to anyone that you can't solve the fiscal problems without reduced benefits to the baby boomers.) They hardly have the moral authority to talk about Obama pandering to certain groups.

If the Republicans really want to fix our SS and medicare problems and are willing to reduce benefits to all of us (baby boomers included) then they would have my ear. I've yet to hear one that has the cojones to do this.

How about a $60,000,000,000 payoff to unions?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703657604575004992410621692.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop

[LiveLaughLove]

Again, maybe the Democrats will not bargain in good faith but the Republicans initial stance is essentially that they will not bargain at all when it comes to tax rate increases.

You're projecting that the Democrats will not agree to any meaningful cuts the Republicans propose. That may be true but it is just a projection at this point. What isn't a projection is the fact that Republicans have taken tax rate increases off the table. We can't even get far enough into the process to see what Democrats will do.

I see you want Democrats to propose the strict cuts. Let's face it. That's not the way an agreement is going to be worked out. The Democrats are going to agree to some of the Republican cuts and the Republicans are going to agree to some of the Democrat's tax increases. You're not going to see Democrats propose many cuts and you're not going to see Republicans propose any tax increases.



And the only thing the Republicans are serious about is making sure they get reelected by maintaining their no tax increase pledge, no matter how much they know that this problem has to be approached from two sides.

Yeah the problem is we have tried the tax increases first, cuts second thing in the past. It cost George HW Bush a second term. He agreed to tax increases and then oddly, never got his major cuts.

The Democrats knew if they could get him to agree to tax increases after his no new taxes pledge, he would be a goner, and he was. It was pure politics then, not what was in the countries best interests, and it's pure politics now.

Bless G HW Bush' heart. He was asked about that incident costing him and did he wish he hadn't done it. He said no. He did what he thought was best for the country, even if they didn't. He was wrong to trust them. They are the scorpion and he was the frog wanting to cross the river.

Republicans only have to look at what happened then, to know not to negotiate that way again now.

[Scott D]

Yeah the problem is we have tried the tax increases first, cuts second thing in the past. It cost George HW Bush a second term. He agreed to tax increases and then oddly, never got his major cuts.

The Democrats knew if they could get him to agree to tax increases after his no new taxes pledge, he would be a goner, and he was. It was pure politics then, not what was in the countries best interests, and it's pure politics now.

Bless G HW Bush' heart. He was asked about that incident costing him and did he wish he hadn't done it. He said no. He did what he thought was best for the country, even if they didn't. He was wrong to trust them. They are the scorpion and he was the frog wanting to cross the river.

Republicans only have to look at what happened then, to know not to negotiate that way again now.

If they ever bothered to look at then, they'd see what they need to do to get where they want.

[MsProudSooner]

Obama made abortion and gay marriage an issue. Republicans didn't change their stance on either of those issues from what it has been the last 50 years.


About 18 months ago, I got a phone call about the 2012 election from a live person instead of a recording. Since I haven't changed my registration yet, it was from a Repbulican. The first and foremost talking points she wanted to discuss were abortion and gay marriage. As politely as possible, I told her that those were not the most important issues facing this country and until the Republican Party figured that out, they were doomed to lose elections.

Perhaps in other states those wouldn't be the first talking points of a phone call from a political party. I don't know. I just know that when you call me and that's what you want to talk about more than unemployment or war or the deficit, it seems as if those are the most important issues to you.

The Republicans may not have changed their stance on those issues, but they have become more crazed. Comments like 'women don't get pregnant from 'legitimate' rape' is a blatant display of ignorance sure to alienate voters.

[LiveLaughLove]

About 18 months ago, I got a phone call about the 2012 election from a live person instead of a recording. Since I haven't changed my registration yet, it was from a Repbulican. The first and foremost talking points she wanted to discuss were abortion and gay marriage. As politely as possible, I told her that those were not the most important issues facing this country and until the Republican Party figured that out, they were doomed to lose elections.

Perhaps in other states those wouldn't be the first talking points of a phone call from a political party. I don't know. I just know that when you call me and that's what you want to talk about more than unemployment or war or the deficit, it seems as if those are the most important issues to you.

The Republicans may not have changed their stance on those issues, but they have become more crazed. Comments like 'women don't get pregnant from 'legitimate' rape' is a blatant display of ignorance sure to alienate voters.

So a comment by a Senatorial candidate in Missouri that was quickly denounced by the whole Republican party and who quit funding his campaign caused you to believe the whole Republican party should be punished? Interesting.

You do know Romney denounced the guy and that the RNC's senatorial committee quit funding him and had nothing else to do with him, right?

Let me guess, you somehow know that secretly this is how all the Republicans really thought.

So before that did you think the Republicans were the best ones to fix the unemployment or wars or deficit, or did you think Obama was?

I'm curious because if you thought Obama, then the Republicans didn't lose your vote. If you thought the Republicans were better but changed your mind over the Akin statement, then those really weren't the most important issues to you or you would have voted for Romney anyway.

I'm going out on a limb here and saying you were going Obama all the way. Just a hunch.

[Turd_Ferguson]

ZZZzzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg!

[rock on sooner]

LLL, Mourdock made his stupid "God intended for the rape to happen" comment,
Romney still supported him, still ran a support ad and refused to step away from
him. What happened there? Jus askin...

[LiveLaughLove]

LLL, Mourdock made his stupid "God intended for the rape to happen" comment,
Romney still supported him, still ran a support ad and refused to step away from
him. What happened there? Jus askin...

Hmm, I don't recall that being what Mourdock said. I thought he said the baby from the rape would be a gift from God. I'm sure that's equally outlandish to a lot of people, but it's biblically sound. It would be a gift from God.

I believe it's Congressman David Drier of California that was conceived during a rape. His mother didn't abort him. I'd say he has been a blessing or gift from God to his mother.

I wouldn't personally tell a rape victim they had to keep a child to term that was from rape, but I would strongly hope they would and then let it be adopted if need be.

As for Romney's support of Mourdock, the voters decided. I don't personally disagree with Romney supporting him, but I'm a right wing wacko Christian so what do I know.

[LiveLaughLove]

Let me add. These two guys are both reasons why I am moderating myself on those issues. Not because of the election, but because these guys sounded like idiots.

It sort of brought me to the point of more libertarianism on it. I have never been for the federal government being involved in these social issues. They were thrust upon us by an activist court.

I am perfectly happy for states to each decide on these issues. Still after hearing these guys, I am becoming more, meh, about them.

Plus, I think we as a people are becoming so debauched and base that the only thing Christians can do is pray for a revival in this country. I don't think we are going to sway anyone as we become more and more secular.

Sad for me to say that, but it is what it is.

I wish liberals would practice what they preach however. They want the government out of their bedrooms, but don't mind them being in almost every other aspect of our lives. Hypocrisy.

[diverdog]

Yeah the problem is we have tried the tax increases first, cuts second thing in the past. It cost George HW Bush a second term. He agreed to tax increases and then oddly, never got his major cuts.

The Democrats knew if they could get him to agree to tax increases after his no new taxes pledge, he would be a goner, and he was. It was pure politics then, not what was in the countries best interests, and it's pure politics now.

Bless G HW Bush' heart. He was asked about that incident costing him and did he wish he hadn't done it. He said no. He did what he thought was best for the country, even if they didn't. He was wrong to trust them. They are the scorpion and he was the frog wanting to cross the river.

Republicans only have to look at what happened then, to know not to negotiate that way again now.

History will reflect that Bush senior was right. His tax increases along with the tax increases under Clinton and bipartisan cuts in spending damn near balanced the budget.

What was different then is that Clinton went after the military industrial complex. Now we are spending a trillion plus a year between all the various defense and Intel agencies and at the same time we cut taxes.

[LiveLaughLove]

History will reflect that Bush senior was right. His tax increases along with the tax increases under Clinton and bipartisan cuts in spending damn near balanced the budget.

What was different then is that Clinton went after the military industrial complex. Now we are spending a trillion plus a year between all the various defense and Intel agencies and at the same time we cut taxes.

I didn't say he was wrong. What I said was the Democrats didn't do the other side of it, and they tricked him into thinking they would. They then went after him on the no new taxes pledge and cost him an election.

They got what they wanted, then they lambasted him for giving it to them. Cynical politics at it's cheapest. Not one of them said he did the right thing back then.

Republicans would be fools (and most of them are) to do any bargaining with the Democrats in which they concede things before the Democrats do.

Time and time again, on issue after issue they have proven they will put their politics first over the good of the country.

[rock on sooner]

Let me add. These two guys are both reasons why I am moderating myself on those issues. Not because of the election, but because these guys sounded like idiots.

It sort of brought me to the point of more libertarianism on it. I have never been for the federal government being involved in these social issues. They were thrust upon us by an activist court.

I am perfectly happy for states to each decide on these issues. Still after hearing these guys, I am becoming more, meh, about them.

Plus, I think we as a people are becoming so debauched and base that the only thing Christians can do is pray for a revival in this country. I don't think we are going to sway anyone as we become more and more secular.

Sad for me to say that, but it is what it is.

I wish liberals would practice what they preach however. They want the government out of their bedrooms, but don't mind them being in almost every other aspect of our lives. Hypocrisy.

LLL, I agree (?) with you about the states deciding these issues, just trading one
large gov't interference with a smaller gov't interference. The only issue I have
is what would obviously be 50 different interpretations of a particular issue, so
a more uniform program to kind of keep order is a bit more workable.

Any suggestions on how to keep a sense of uniformity throughout the 50 states?
Or, is it more desireable to have the 50 different interpretations?

[Turd_Ferguson]

LLL, I agree (?) with you about the states deciding these issues, just trading one
large gov't interference with a smaller gov't interference. The only issue I have
is what would obviously be 50 different interpretations of a particular issue, so
a more uniform program to kind of keep order is a bit more workable.

Any suggestions on how to keep a sense of uniformity throughout the 50 states?
Or, is it more desireable to have the 50 different interpretations?Why would it be uniform if it were states that made their own decisions? It's obvious that people think differently from state to state.

[rock on sooner]

Why would it be uniform if it were states that made their own decisions? It's obvious that people think differently from state to state.

That's just my point, TF. Without some uniformity there will be so much
variance between Cali and Oregon. Someone in Cali gets put away for
something that is legal in Oregon. Hell, it can be any two states. I think
it'll be a judicial nightmare and will tie up district courts, fed appeals courts
and, finally, SCOTUS. As if our court system isn't constipated enough.

[Skysooner]

LLL,

The 'Pub party is supposedly devoted to individual liberty. You say the Dems only want people to stay out of the bedroom

How does "Gay marriage" or "Gay civil union" affect you as a person or us as a country? Abortion is a different concept except that interference is again an infringement against personal liberty. You may have personal beliefs as we all do. Still does that mandate an interference in personal liberty? You say progressives say stay out of the bedroom and condone it elsewhere. Do you honestly think we accept the Patriot Act, SC activism or other infringements? We simply want to make sure that the ideas of a minority do not reflect on the majority. You still have not answered my question about "The Great Experiment".

[diverdog]

I didn't say he was wrong. What I said was the Democrats didn't do the other side of it, and they tricked him into thinking they would. They then went after him on the no new taxes pledge and cost him an election.

They got what they wanted, then they lambasted him for giving it to them. Cynical politics at it's cheapest. Not one of them said he did the right thing back then.

Republicans would be fools (and most of them are) to do any bargaining with the Democrats in which they concede things before the Democrats do.

Time and time again, on issue after issue they have proven they will put their politics first over the good of the country.

just to be clear I liked Bush 1 until he messed up the war with Iraq. We should have gone to Baghdad and removed SH.

If you look back there were cuts made.....military...welfare...medicare...ag....Cli nton proposed austerity for Federal workers. I honestly think the best form of our government is to have a moderate Dem as a President....fiscal conservative Republican controlled house and a tied Senate.