More Details From the Benghazi Attack

[sappstuf]

After reading this, I doubt the Obama administration is going to be pushing a movie out about it...


A U.S. ambassador is missing and his diplomatic team is desperately fighting off terrorist attacks. Our commander-in-chief and his national-security team in Washington are listening to the phone calls from the Americans under attack and watching real-time video from a drone circling overhead. Yet the U.S. military sends no aid. Why?

On September 11, at about 10 p.m. Libyan time (4 p.m. in Washington), Ambassador Chris Stevens and a small staff were inside our consulate in Benghazi when terrorists attacked. The consulate staff immediately contacted Washington and our embassy in Tripoli. The White House, the Pentagon, the State Department, and numerous military headquarters monitored the entire battle in real time via the phone calls from Benghazi and video from a drone overhead.

Our diplomats fought for seven hours without any aid from outside the country. Four Americans died while the Obama national-security team and our military passively watched and listened. The administration is being criticized for ignoring security needs before the attack and for falsely attributing the assault to a mob. But the most severe failure has gone unnoticed: namely, a failure to aid the living.

By 4:30 p.m. Washington time, the main consulate building was on fire and Ambassador Stevens was missing. In response, the embassy in Tripoli launched an aircraft carrying 22 men. Benghazi was 400 miles away.

At 5 p.m., President Obama met with Vice President Biden and Secretary of Defense Panetta in the Oval Office. The U.S. military base in Sigonella, Sicily, was 480 miles away from Benghazi. Stationed at Sigonella were Special Operations Forces, transport aircraft, and attack aircraft — a much more formidable force than 22 men from the embassy.

In the past, presidents had taken immediate actions to protect Americans. In 1984, President Reagan had ordered U.S. pilots to force an airliner carrying terrorists to land at Sigonella. Reagan had acted inside a 90-minute window while the aircraft with the terrorists was in the air. The Obama national-security team had several hours in which to move forces from Sigonella to Benghazi.

Fighter jets could have been at Benghazi in an hour; the commandos inside three hours. If the attackers were a mob, as intelligence reported, then an F18 in afterburner, roaring like a lion, would unnerve them. This procedure was applied often in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Conversely, if the attackers were terrorists, then the U.S. commandos would eliminate them. But no forces were dispatched from Sigonella.

In the meantime, while untrained and poorly led by American standards, the terrorists at Benghazi were proving to be lethal. They forced the Americans to abandon the consulate, with the ambassador still missing, and fall back to an annex a mile away. When the terrorist gang followed the Americans, looters took the opportunity to ransack the empty consulate. But when they found Ambassador Stevens unconscious on the floor, they stopped looting and rushed him to a hospital. Unfortunately, the doctors could not save his life. Not knowing who he was, they took the cell phone from his pocket and called numbers. By about two in the morning, the American embassy received word that the ambassador was dead.

At about the same time, the 22 men from the embassy in Tripoli had arrived at the Benghazi airport. They drove to the annex to assist in its defense against persistent terrorist attacks. Around 4 a.m. Libyan time — six hours into the fight — enemy mortar rounds killed two of the defenders on the roof of the annex.

The fight began at 10 p.m. and petered out at dawn when the Libyan militia came to the aid of the Americans.

It is bewildering that no U.S. aircraft ever came to the aid of the defenders. If even one F18 had been on station, it would have detected the location of hostiles firing at night and deterred and attacked the mortar sites. For our top leadership, with all the technological and military tools at their disposal, to have done nothing for seven hours was a joint civilian and military failure of initiative and nerve.

Secretary of State Clinton has said the responsibility was hers. But there has been no assertion that the State Department overruled the Pentagon out of concern about the sovereignty of Libyan air space. Instead, it appears passive groupthink prevailed, with the assumption being that a spontaneous mob would quickly run out of steam.

Firefights, however, wax and wane from dusk to dawn. You cannot predict ahead of time when they will stop. Therefore a combat commander will take immediate action, presuming reinforcements will be needed.

The administration wrongly blamed a mob for the attack. Yet ironically, Mr. Obama’s chances of reelection would have plummeted were it not for the human decency of a mob that took the ambassador to the hospital before the terrorists returned.

If the terrorists had taken his body and, with no Special Operations Forces hot on their trail, taunted America the next day — claiming the ambassador was still alive — the Benghazi tragedy would have escalated into an international disaster. The U.S. military sent no aid. Why?

[Soonerjeepman]

because it was not a terrorist attack...

I hope Romney can bring up the facts on this...

[SoonerProphet]

Looks likes some holes are appearing in the Mitt strategy to make hay out of this issue.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203400604578071302911132288.html
The New Republic, but still, more holes

http://www.tnr.com/blog/108951/has-the-benghazi-opportunism-run-its-course

[rock on sooner]

I think the big thing here is the outing of the names of Libyans
working with the US. You can be quite sure that some or many
of those named will wind up dead. Issa was prolly involved with
the Valerie Plame incident, too.

[Soonerjeepman]

SP...not saying I want Romney to go crazy over specifics...more the general approach to FA..different than obama. I'm not a war monger in any stretch but I do believe in carrying a big stick, especially when we are dealing with dipsh$t out there who don't understand anything but that.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Issa was prolly involved with
the Valerie Plame incident, too.kinda **** you wankers always pull. "Probably"...wow.

[sappstuf]

Looks likes some holes are appearing in the Mitt strategy to make hay out of this issue.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203400604578071302911132288.html
The New Republic, but still, more holes

http://www.tnr.com/blog/108951/has-the-benghazi-opportunism-run-its-course

In another words, you could couldn't care less that the Obama administration didn't respond and let these people hang out for 7 hours when an armed jet could have been there in an hour and special forces in 3...

Wow.

And from your silly TNR site:


There were two administration failures around Benghazi: a failure to provide adequate security at the consulate, and a failure to provide a consistent explanation for what had happened on September 11 as the facts emerged.

So the fact that there were assets available to respond to the consulate but were not used isn't a failure?

Wow again.

[sappstuf]

I think the big thing here is the outing of the names of Libyans
working with the US. You can be quite sure that some or many
of those named will wind up dead. Issa was prolly involved with
the Valerie Plame incident, too.

The outing of the names happened when the consulate was ransacked.. Classified material was laying around unsecure along with a lot of other stuff. CNN walked in 3 days after the attack and found the ambassador's diary.

I'm not sure what that has to do with Issa...

[rock on sooner]

The outing of the names happened when the consulate was ransacked.. Classified material was laying around unsecure along with a lot of other stuff. CNN walked in 3 days after the attack and found the ambassador's diary.

I'm not sure what that has to do with Issa...

Issa office released the compiled list, I think 166 names
or something like that, really unncesessary to do that, imo.

[rock on sooner]

kinda **** you wankers always pull. "Probably"...wow.

Naw, TF, I went to the RW school of association, you "prolly"
heard of it.:cheerful:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

If I were Romney, I would hit hard with this.

[sappstuf]

Issa office released the compiled list, I think 166 names
or something like that, really unncesessary to do that, imo.

He released 166 pages, not 166 names. I have seen maybe 4 names.

[rock on sooner]

He released 166 pages, not 166 names. I have seen maybe 4 names.

Sorry, you are correct...

[Turd_Ferguson]

He released 166 pages, not 166 names. I have seen maybe 4 names.ROS said "or something like that", so he may be off on the count a tad bit.

[cleller]

Dang, I thought we would fight to save our people if at all possible. The administration treated the Americans at Benghazi like The Dirty Dozen, or the Mission Impossible crew.

[sappstuf]

http://global.nationalreview.com/images/photoshop_102212_A.jpg

[pphilfran]

Issa office released the compiled list, I think 166 names
or something like that, really unncesessary to do that, imo.

I read (scanned)the thing the other day..a lot of the stuff was a year old....there was nothing in the thing that really got my panties in a wad...it was a 166 pages

The first four or five pages were email or letters asking for more security...one was about the monthly lease of the building compounds...the majority were quarterly or monthly reviews of the situation and the dangers....

[SoonerProphet]

So with the conflicting information on the ground about who was who and what was what, it would have been wise to call in an airstrike or have some special operators rope in? Has the House group called Petraeus to grill him on the CIA or called in the AFRICOM commander to grill him on why the Marine FAST teams didn't go? Let's get all the facts out there. Then we can play political witch hunt.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Uhmm, they didn't go in because The Socialist didn't order them in...

[SoonerProphet]

Uhmm, they didn't go in because The Socialist didn't order them in...

Uhmm, don't really think you are a reliable source on exactly what went down.

How do some of you partisan fanboys feel about Issa releasing State-Department memos in his political gotcha game.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1022/IssaLeaks-More-fallout-from-the-Benghazi-killings

[sappstuf]

So with the conflicting information on the ground about who was who and what was what, it would have been wise to call in an airstrike or have some special operators rope in? Has the House group called Petraeus to grill him on the CIA or called in the AFRICOM commander to grill him on why the Marine FAST teams didn't go? Let's get all the facts out there. Then we can play political witch hunt.

I doubt there were any conflicting reports coming from the ground about "who", because "who" doesn't matter. They were being overrun by an enemy with bigger guns and more of them. They needed help and didn't get any for 7 hours even though it was available.

[sappstuf]

Uhmm, don't really think you are a reliable source on exactly what went down.

How do some of you partisan fanboys feel about Issa releasing State-Department memos in his political gotcha game.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/1022/IssaLeaks-More-fallout-from-the-Benghazi-killings

You mean the memos that phil said he read above and were much ado about nothing?

I do like the last sentence in your story though...


All this makes it very hard for people to talk to the US government with confidence, or for US diplomats to do their job with confidence.

You know what else makes it hard for diplomats to do their jobs with confidence? Begging for security in a country running rampant with terrorists and not getting any until the inevitable happens.

[sappstuf]

More signs of incompetence from Time.com after interviewing some of the guards that the US government hasn't been able to yet.


What is clear is that, as others have reported, there was no protest, simply a sudden siege of the compound; U.S. security forces–including U.S. Marines who arrived at an American safe house outside the consulate grounds–were overwhelmed and stymied; and that the looters apparently came upon the body of a still-breathing Ambassador Chris Stevens.

Read more: http://world.time.com/2012/10/21/the-other-911-libyan-guards-recount-what-happened-in-benghazi/#ixzz2A3kG0JqG

[SoonerProphet]

I doubt there were any conflicting reports coming from the ground about "who", because "who" doesn't matter. They were being overrun by an enemy with bigger guns and more of them. They needed help and didn't get any for 7 hours even though it was available.

The who doesn't matter? You are gonna call in an airstrike or socom when you have no idea what is going on there?

[SoonerProphet]

More signs of incompetence from Time.com after interviewing some of the guards that the US government hasn't been able to yet.



Read more: http://world.time.com/2012/10/21/the-other-911-libyan-guards-recount-what-happened-in-benghazi/#ixzz2A3kG0JqG

Sounds like more confusion to me.

[sappstuf]

The who doesn't matter? You are gonna call in an airstrike or socom when you have no idea what is going on there?

You really don't have a clue do you?

You get them all in the air moving in that direction. We had drone flying overhead sending a live feed back we had time to figure it out. Get that jet over there and if you need it, it is there.

Same thing with "socom" as you put it.. You get them in the air as soon as it was attacked and the White House did know right away because the consulate reported it. You have 3 hours to either brief them or turn them around if you decide you don't need them. The last thing you do is nothing and lose a potential asset that could have made a critical difference.

[sappstuf]

Sounds like more confusion to me.

The guards weren't confused at all. No protest, just an attack. The Obama administration should have probably talked to those guys before coming up with a protest theory that had no basis in reality.

[SoonerProphet]

You really don't have a clue do you?

You get them all in the air moving in that direction. We had drone flying overhead sending a live feed back we had time to figure it out. Get that jet over there and if you need it, it is there.

Same thing with "socom" as you put it.. You get them in the air as soon as it was attacked and the White House did know right away because the consulate reported it. You have 3 hours to either brief them or turn them around if you decide you don't need them. The last thing you do is nothing and lose a potential asset that could have made a critical difference.

No reason to be such a pole smoking bitch. Just wondering why Issa hasn't called to carpet the military dudes who might have some insight on the information as to why or why they were not used.

[SoonerProphet]

The guards weren't confused at all. No protest, just an attack. The Obama administration should have probably talked to those guys before coming up with a protest theory that had no basis in reality.

So all the chatter about confusion in the initial days is just a smoke screen. Maybe I am clueless or maybe my jump to conlclussion mat just ain't the same as it used to be.

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/intelligence-reports-are-not-necessarily-the-truth/

Ignatius observes that intelligence is developed when something happens and that evidence is frequently “fragmentary and conflicting.” While there may be such a thing as incontrovertible facts relating to any incident, that solid information is something that frequently cannot be easily discerned. Ignatius notes that Republicans have been beating Obama over the head most recently with the assertion that there was a CIA Station Chief cable the day after the killing of the ambassador that indicated that the attack had been planned and organized by a militant group. But I would bet that there were at least 15 other reports that went out the same day that provided alternative scenarios. If you intercept a cell phone call in which someone is claiming credit for organizing an attack, is he speaking the truth or is he boasting and trying to take credit for some reason or other? If a source in a militia is claiming that he knows who ordered the attack, does he have an agenda that is driving his claim? All of that has to be sorted out, which takes time and cross checking. At the present time, it does appear that the “Innocence of Muslims” video did play a role in the attack and the contention that it was a fully-orchestrated al-Qaeda event seems unlikely.

[sappstuf]

No reason to be such a pole smoking bitch. Just wondering why Issa hasn't called to carpet the military dudes who might have some insight on the information as to why or why they were not used.

Once again, you don't really know what you are talking about. Military was sent from Libya, but a small one. There were special forces and fighter jets in Sicily that could have been there in 1 hour plus two more. You asked why the Africom commander didn't send in these forces.. Easy. They were not under his command. That would be most likely a SECDEF decision to send them over and probably the president since it has been said the White House was aware from the very beginning.

Issa did call Lt Col Wood, who was the commander of the embassy Site Security Team in Libya before being pulled out. He testified under oath that security was getting worse and security remained weak.

Keep trying though...

[sappstuf]

1540 East Coast time: The attack began.

1630: White House knows the ambassador is missing.

1700: Obama, Biden, and Panetta meet in the Oval Office. Charlene Lamb at the State Department is watching events in real time. It seems likely Panetta was, too — and perhaps even Obama.

They set there and did nothing. What good is having the technology to watch stuff like that in real time and then do nothing to stop it? Meanwhile, one of the suspects is hanging out and thumbing his nose at us.

Impotent - Lacking in power, as to act effectively; helpless.

That just about covers it.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Prophets had a stick up his *** for years...not sure what his problem is.

[SoonerProphet]

Once again, you don't really know what you are talking about. Military was sent from Libya, but a small one. There were special forces and fighter jets in Sicily that could have been there in 1 hour plus two more. You asked why the Africom commander didn't send in these forces.. Easy. They were not under his command. That would be most likely a SECDEF decision to send them over and probably the president since it has been said the White House was aware from the very beginning.

Issa did call Lt Col Wood, who was the commander of the embassy Site Security Team in Libya before being pulled out. He testified under oath that security was getting worse and security remained weak.

Keep trying though...

I think the aware portion of your statement doesn't jive with the current facts. Seems to me from what I have read, and I'll take Philip Giraldi's word over at TAC than most of the partisan hackery we've seen, that there was not much awaresness about who and how organized that attack was. Seems to me there is much confusion on who the groups were linked to, motive, operational status, etc... With these issues still in doubt it seems a bit premature to call in the armed forces when there is very little information on what the targets are. It also seems to me that with Issa's selective release of details, the old CIA backstep, and an administration looking to deflect, cover, or do what politicians generally do, the general public has a very limited understanding of the events on the ground.

The only thing I am trying do is figure out why the fook we are wasting lives and treasure there in the first place.

[SoonerProphet]

Prophets had a stick up his *** for years...not sure what his problem is.

Well, I guess it beats what you always have in yours.

[cleller]

In this instance if you get planes and people headed that way immediately- you have the option of recalling them.

If you are indecisive, and do nothing, you have no option.

[C&CDean]

High brow. Mature insults. Heh.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Well, I guess it beats what you always have in yours.
My ace is one way only, not that it's any of your bidness.

[C&CDean]

My ace is one way only, not that it's any of your bidness.

Innie?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Innie?

If that were true, I'd weigh 9,875 lbs.

[SoonerProphet]

My ace is one way only, not that it's any of your bidness.

Feeling kinda jealous.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Feeling kinda jealous.
Don't be.

[sappstuf]

I think the aware portion of your statement doesn't jive with the current facts. Seems to me from what I have read, and I'll take Philip Giraldi's word over at TAC than most of the partisan hackery we've seen, that there was not much awaresness about who and how organized that attack was. Seems to me there is much confusion on who the groups were linked to, motive, operational status, etc... With these issues still in doubt it seems a bit premature to call in the armed forces when there is very little information on what the targets are. It also seems to me that with Issa's selective release of details, the old CIA backstep, and an administration looking to deflect, cover, or do what politicians generally do, the general public has a very limited understanding of the events on the ground.

The only thing I am trying do is figure out why the fook we are wasting lives and treasure there in the first place.

So you believe the Obama administration did the right thing by not responding militarily to an attack on our sovereign territory with assets that were nearby.. Wow.

I'm glad you aren't the Commander in Chief.

[SoonerProphet]

So you believe the Obama administration did the right thing by not responding militarily to an attack on our sovereign territory with assets that were nearby.. Wow.

I'm glad you aren't the Commander in Chief.

Fools rush in I suppose.

[XingTheRubicon]

Yeah, let's think about it a little longer...

[okie52]

Fools rush in I suppose.

Thumb twiddlers need love too.

[cleller]

A plane in the air isn't exactly rushing in, but that was too hard for this gang to figure out.

[SoonerProphet]

**** yeah, cause blowing up **** is cool and stuff. Screw the consequences of blowing up the wrong people they are just Arabs. Besides, acting like dip**** Cowboys twelve years or so has paid off so well.

[Curly Bill]

**** yeah, cause blowing up **** is cool and stuff. Screw the consequences of blowing up the wrong people they are just Arabs. Besides, acting like dip**** Cowboys twelve years or so has paid off so well.

You got this part right anyway.

[SoonerProphet]

You got this part right anyway.

Heh, shows what you know...they were Berbers you ninny!!

[Curly Bill]

Heh, shows what you know...they were Berbers you ninny!!


Berbers, Arabs...who cares? Lets kill em all!

[okie52]

**** yeah, cause blowing up **** is cool and stuff. Screw the consequences of blowing up the wrong people they are just Arabs. Besides, acting like dip**** Cowboys twelve years or so has paid off so well.

Obama didn't have any problem bombing the **** out of Libya when we weren't at war with them.

[Curly Bill]

Obama didn't have any problem bombing the **** out of Libya when we weren't at war with them.

Like the rest of the Mooslims, he was caught up in the whole "Arab Summer" thing! :)

[okie52]

Like the rest of the Mooslims, he was caught up in the whole "Arab Summer" thing! :)

Heh heh.

[sappstuf]

Fools rush in I suppose.

I'm quite sure the SEALS that could have responded are not fools and would have been ready to go in the 3 hour flight to get them there.

Instead, Obama took the "all bleeding stops eventually" approach. It stopped when 4 Americans were dead and the consulate was razed to the ground.

[MamaMia]

Its like calling 911 from the bedroom closet and having the dispatcher tell you that they aren't going to send the police over unless you can give them the names of the people who are rummaging through your home with guns and butcher knives.

[sappstuf]

Its like calling 911 from the bedroom closet and having the dispatcher tell you that they aren't going to send the police over unless you can give them the names of the people who are rummaging through your home with guns and butcher knives.

Or better yet 9/11. Under Prophet's leadership all NY firefighters and first responders would have stayed in their respective firehouses because "fools rush in". Better to leave those civilians on their own and figure out all the details before we send anyone...

[sappstuf]

dp

[SoonerProphet]

Or better yet 9/11. Under Prophet's leadership all NY firefighters and first responders would have stayed in their respective firehouses because "fools rush in". Better to leave those civilians on their own and figure out all the details before we send anyone...

Oooh, so clever, not really analogous. Don't include me on your circle-jerks either.

[pphilfran]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57538689/emails-detail-unfolding-benghazi-attack-on-sept-11/?roi=echo3-13544639711-10068926-14cb56f58ecf5c29f4b6a5ba58b4ff37

CBS News) It was six weeks ago on Tuesday that terrorists attacked the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya.

Now, CBS News has obtained email alerts that were put out by the State Department as the attack unfolded. Four Americans were killed in the attack, including Ambassador Christopher Stevens.

These emails contain the earliest description so far of what happened at Benghazi the night of the attack.

At 4:05 p.m. Eastern time, on September 11, an alert from the State Department Operations Center was issued to a number government and intelligence agencies. Included were the White House Situation Room, the office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the FBI.

"US Diplomatic Mission in Benghazi Under Attack" -- "approximately 20 armed people fired shots; explosions have been heard as well. Ambassador Stevens, who is currently in Benghazi, and four COM (Chief of Mission/embassy) personnel are in the compound safe haven."

At 4:54 p.m., less than an hour later, another alert: "the firing... in Benghazi...has stopped...A response team is on site attempting to locate COM (embassy) personnel."

Then, at 6:07 p.m., State sent out another alert saying the embassy in Tripoli reported the Islamic military group "Ansar al-Sharia Claims Responsibilty for Benghazi Attack"... "on Facebook and Twitter and has called for an attack on Embassy Tripoli."

The emails are just a few in what are likely a large number traded throughout the night. They are likely to become part of the ongoing political debate over whether the administration attempted to mislead in saying the assault was an outgrowth of a protest, rather than a planned attack by terrorists.

[TitoMorelli]

http://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Bumper-Sticker-Gypsum-CO-Forward.jpg


Kinda reminds me of what's happening to Prophet on this thread.

[SoonerProphet]

http://legalinsurrection.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Bumper-Sticker-Gypsum-CO-Forward.jpg


Kinda reminds me of what's happening to Prophet on this thread.

Of course, the facts are overwhelming. Trump must be on the case.

[SicEmBaylor]

lolz @ ST.

[XingTheRubicon]

couple of posters may want to sit a few plays out

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20072745

Best part:

According to the Egyptian officials the suspect was cornered in a flat in Madinet Nasr early on Wednesday morning. He threw a bomb at the security forces, but it bounced back into the flat.

d'oh

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/24/us-military-response-questioned-in-wake-deadly-libya-attack/


But U.S. officials argue "strafing the streets of Benghazi" without a clear intelligence picture on the ground could have led to Americans or innocent bystanders being mistakenly hit. Officials also feared an ambush by the attackers.

“It's not as easy as people think,” retired Gen. Jack Keane, former vice chief of the Army staff, said. “It's not as it's displayed in Hollywood. ... They are as concerned about those who they are sending there and having harm come to them as they are about those who are already there under duress.”

[sappstuf]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/24/us-military-response-questioned-in-wake-deadly-libya-attack/


But U.S. officials argue "strafing the streets of Benghazi" without a clear intelligence picture on the ground could have led to Americans or innocent bystanders being mistakenly hit. Officials also feared an ambush by the attackers.

“It's not as easy as people think,” retired Gen. Jack Keane, former vice chief of the Army staff, said. “It's not as it's displayed in Hollywood. ... They are as concerned about those who they are sending there and having harm come to them as they are about those who are already there under duress.”

From your story.


-- A "fast team" of Marines from Rota, Spain, were sent to guard the Embassy in Tripoli.

So Obama sent Marines to a place that wasn't under attack while...


At 4 a.m. local time -- 6 hours and 20 minutes after the initial attack began -- former Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were killed at the CIA annex by a mortar shell. The machine gun they were firing was caked in blood, suggesting they continued fighting after being hit.

I almost teared up when I read that. Those guys fought for over 6 hours waiting for the cavalry to arrive, plenty of time to get reinforcements there. But as you said, "fools rush in". Hopefully you are man enough to admit you are ok with letting those two men fight and suffer to the very end rather than risk saving them.

[FaninAma]

**** yeah, cause blowing up **** is cool and stuff. Screw the consequences of blowing up the wrong people they are just Arabs. Besides, acting like dip**** Cowboys twelve years or so has paid off so well.

And who says this would have been the end result? They could have had a rapid response Special Ops team in the area within an hour...plenty of time to save the American personnel who were killed. Obama wouldn't pull the trigger and our Ambassador was killed. Obama needs to answer questions as to why he didn't respond.

If he is re-elected the anti-American elements in the Middle East(individual groups and regimes) will continue to test Obama to see how far they can push him.

And BTW, if you think his drone policy is "winning" the battle against radicals you need to read the articles that discuss how many civilians are being killed in these attacks. The ratio of innocent civilians killed to known terrorist killed is like 40:1.

I personally would respect Obama a lot more if he would just withdraw from the area completely. If Middle East countries like Saudia Arabia want their region to enter the 21st century tehn they need to do the heavy lifting. Let them send their sons and daughters to clean up that cesspool.

[SoonerProphet]

From your story.



So Obama sent Marines to a place that wasn't under attack while...



I almost teared up when I read that. Those guys fought for over 6 hours waiting for the cavalry to arrive, plenty of time to get reinforcements there. But as you said, "fools rush in". Hopefully you are man enough to admit you are ok with letting those two men fight and suffer to the very end rather than risk saving them.

Meh, I thought you were going to be man enough to admit your analysis of the situation is flat out wrong. Thought you'd be man enough to admit you have made the deaths of these four people into a political weapon to bash your oppsoing team. Seems to me the fox news piece backs my assertion that to send the cavalry in to kill stuff and break **** would have been "imprudent".

You keep making political hay out this and show your true partisan colors. Others will let the facts come out and make a judgement.

[SoonerProphet]

And who says this would have been the end result? They could have had a rapid response Special Ops team in the area within an hour...plenty of time to save the American personnel who were killed. Obama wouldn't pull the trigger and our Ambassador was killed. Obama needs to answer questions as to why he didn't respond.

If he is re-elected the anti-Amaerican elements in the Middle East(individual groups and regimes) will continue to test Obama to see how far they can push him.

And BTW, if you think his drone policy is "winninig" the battle against radicals you need to read the articles that discuss how many civilians are being killed in these attacks. The ratio of innocent civilians killed to known terrorist killed is like 40:1.

I personally would respect Obama a lot more if he would just withdraw from the area completely. If the Middle East countries like Saudia Arabia want their region to enter the 21st century tehn they need to do the heavy lifting. Let them send their sons and daughters to clean up that cesspool.

It seems apparent by the fox piece that the military itself had reservations about pulling the trigger in Benghazi. Elements to move were there but in the "fog of war" it would be imprudent to act. I tend to agree. Who were they going to attack, were there sensitive CIA contacts, was the information coming in confusing, misleading, etc...Doesn't seem as clear cut as some of theses message board coach commanders make it out to be.

As to the drone war comment, I am fully aware of these policies and have stated in the past that I don't agree. It appears that we have learned nothing from the miscalculations of the Bush policies and the gross failure to spread democracy or whatever Neo-Wilsonian nonsense comes from the neoconsevative and liberal interventionist mindset.

[FaninAma]

It seems apparent by the fox piece that the military itself had reservations about pulling the trigger in Benghazi. Elements to move were there but in the "fog of war" it would be imprudent to act. I tend to agree. Who were they going to attack, were there sensitive CIA contacts, was the information coming in confusing, misleading, etc...Doesn't seem as clear cut as some of theses message board coach commanders make it out to be.

As to the drone war comment, I am fully aware of these policies and have stated in the past that I don't agree. It appears that we have learned nothing from the miscalculations of the Bush policies and the gross failure to spread democracy or whatever Neo-Wilsonian nonsense comes from the neoconsevative and liberal interventionist mindset.

Then we need to save a little money and disband our rapid-response units if that is the case. Heck, let's close all the bases in Europe since they are of little use in protecting our interests in the area and neighboring areas.

You can't tell me that the attack on our consulate didn't provide more than a little bit of useful inforamtion to the Islamists about the current resolve by our military and political leaders in the current administration.

[SoonerProphet]

You can't tell me that the attack on our consulate didn't provide more than a little bit of useful inforamtion to the Islamists about the current resolve by our military and political leaders in the current administration.

How has our "resolve" the last 14 years done anything to quell the disparate groups from attacking. Whether it be Iraq, Baghdad, Lybia. or wherever. Toughness and they only now strenght is a shibboleth.

[sappstuf]

Meh, I thought you were going to be man enough to admit your analysis of the situation is flat out wrong. Thought you'd be man enough to admit you have made the deaths of these four people into a political weapon to bash your oppsoing team. Seems to me the fox news piece backs my assertion that to send the cavalry in to kill stuff and break **** would have been "imprudent".

You keep making political hay out this and show your true partisan colors. Others will let the facts come out and make a judgement.

The original piece talked about flying a jet right over the attackers with afterburners on because it scares the crap out of insurgents especially at night and has caused them to lose their nerve and break off attacks. Just the presence of a jet sends a signal. No one was talking about strafing the streets.

4 people die including the first ambassador in 18 years and you think security was perfect and the response was appropriate.

The only possible reason anyone would possibly ask any questions is to make the president look bad.

Those are apparently your conclusions as sad as they are.

[sappstuf]

It seems apparent by the fox piece that the military itself had reservations about pulling the trigger in Benghazi. Elements to move were there but in the "fog of war" it would be imprudent to act. I tend to agree. Who were they going to attack, were there sensitive CIA contacts, was the information coming in confusing, misleading, etc...Doesn't seem as clear cut as some of theses message board coach commanders make it out to be.

As to the drone war comment, I am fully aware of these policies and have stated in the past that I don't agree. It appears that we have learned nothing from the miscalculations of the Bush policies and the gross failure to spread democracy or whatever Neo-Wilsonian nonsense comes from the neoconsevative and liberal interventionist mindset.

That general has been retired for 10 years... He wasn't speaking for the military.

But since you brought the General into the conversation let us see what else he has said about Obama's decisive leadership..

Oh yes.. We knew where Osama was for a year before Obama finally ok'd the mission.. That sounds about right for Obama's decision making process time.

WsT4Tmc_K4g&

[SoonerProphet]

That general has been retired for 10 years... He wasn't speaking for the military.

But since you brought the General into the conversation let us see what else he has said about Obama's decisive leadership..

Oh yes.. We knew where Osama was for a year before Obama finally ok'd the mission.. That sounds about right for Obama's decision making process time.

WsT4Tmc_K4g&

Don't change the subject. It is ok to man up and admit your thoughts on the military attacking were wrong.

[cleller]

That general has been retired for 10 years... He wasn't speaking for the military.

But since you brought the General into the conversation let us see what else he has said about Obama's decisive leadership..

Oh yes.. We knew where Osama was for a year before Obama finally ok'd the mission.. That sounds about right for Obama's decision making process time.

WsT4Tmc_K4g&

Had OBL under surveillance for up to a year before going after him...wanted a photo of him first.

Barack must watch alot of those CSI shows.

[sappstuf]

Don't change the subject. It is ok to man up and admit your thoughts on the military attacking were wrong.

Wrong is an opinion. What we know is that 2 Americans fought for over 6 hours waiting for help to arrive and that the Obama administration made no such approval while watching the entire thing from a drone. Instead those 2 Americans fought until they were seriously wounded and then kept fighting until their blood encrusted weapons fell silent. Those are facts.

But those facts make no difference to you. Probably because you have never been in the military.

I will be happy to admit I would have sent at least one jet and had special forces that were available on a plane heading in that direction, right or wrong.

Now you admit that you are okay with denying the ambassador the security he wanted and then once the attack started leaving them to meet their fates.

[SoonerProphet]

Wrong is an opinion. What we know is that 2 Americans fought for over 6 hours waiting for help to arrive and that the Obama administration made no such approval while watching the entire thing from a drone. Instead those 2 Americans fought until they were seriously wounded and then kept fighting until their blood encrusted weapons fell silent. Those are facts.

But those facts make no difference to you. Probably because you have never been in the military.

I will be happy to admit I would have sent at least one jet and had special forces that were available on a plane heading in that direction, right or wrong.

Now you admit that you are okay with denying the ambassador the security he wanted and then once the attack started leaving them to meet their fates.

You don't know **** about me and you conjecture about what I may or may not do is about as absurd as your arguments. You have no facts about what was going on at the consulate, instead you want to gain politically from the death of these people.

[sappstuf]

You don't know **** about me and you conjecture about what I may or may not do is about as absurd as your arguments. You have no facts about what was going on at the consulate, instead you want to gain politically from the death of these people.

We know plenty that was going on. The ambassador was pleading for help that was denied. The LtCol that was in charge of a 16 man security team requested to extend because of the increasing danger but that was denied and his team was sent out of Libya. This all led up to the attack in which 4 Americans were killed and you don't give a **** about them.

That isn't conjecture. You don't care about those 4 Americans or how they died or most importantly why. The only reason you are posting at all is because you are defending your guy.

Is the timing bad for Obama? Probably. Boo f7^%ing woo. You would be happy if the names Christopher Stevens, Tyrone Woods, Glen Doherty and Sean Smith were never heard again. You haven't shown the slightest bit of concern about how they died in this thread.

Bad decisions were made and then more bad decisions compounded the problem. People died.

There are hundreds of reasons to want to know how the break down of security occurred and how our first ambassador in 18 years was killed. There are only a few reasons to want it all swept under the rug like yourself.

Politics would be number one on that list. That is where you are at.

[The Remnant]

People died. Obama lied.

[SoonerProphet]

We know plenty that was going on. The ambassador was pleading for help that was denied. The LtCol that was in charge of a 16 man security team requested to extend because of the increasing danger but that was denied and his team was sent out of Libya. This all led up to the attack in which 4 Americans were killed and you don't give a **** about them.

That isn't conjecture. You don't care about those 4 Americans or how they died or most importantly why. They only reason you are posting at all is because you are defending your guy.

Is the timing bad for Obama? Probably. Boo f7^%ing woo. You would be happy if the names Christopher Stevens, Tyrone Woods, Glen Doherty and Sean Smith were never heard again. You haven't shown the slightest bit of concern about how they died in this thread.

Bad decisions were made and then more bad decisions compounded the problem. People died.

There are hundreds of reasons to want to know how the break down of security occurred and how our first ambassador in 18 years was killed. There are only a few reasons to want it all swept under the rug like yourself.

Politics would be number one on that list. That is where you are at.

No, that has been my point, we don't have an accurate assessment of what went down. We have tons of briefs, emails, facebook posts, reports of attacks, claims by AQ in the Magreb, this group and that, with no real analysis of the actual facts that went down. Those four who were killed knew the risks involved in their mission and my thoughts on them matter little, nice try at a strawman. Nor can you make the argument that he is my guy, he is a ****** just like the GOP candidate, two sides of the same coin. Instead of stepping back from the precipice, you and your ilk have decided to engage in a political game of gotcha. Trying to score political points off the deaths of these folks. The arguments have ranged from the video, to a cover up, to incompetence, to arming rebels in Syria. Frankly is has been hard to keep up with all the outrage over Benghazi.

[8timechamps]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20072745

Best part:

According to the Egyptian officials the suspect was cornered in a flat in Madinet Nasr early on Wednesday morning. He threw a bomb at the security forces, but it bounced back into the flat.

d'oh

I'd like to know what in the hell the bomb was composed of, rubber?!

[SoonerProphet]

I'd like to know what in the hell the bomb was composed of, rubber?!

Defies imagination how that how scene went down.

[SoonerProphet]

Here is another voice calling for people to take a step back and let the chips fall. No points to be scored, time to wait for the facts and move on to some other banal topic to extoll the virtue of your side while shedding your divine light on the mendacity of the "bad guys". I anxiously await the next nonsense, the choo choo train to Hungarian collectivism, the Khmer Southsiders stealing your guns and sending you off to camp, and long lines at the Kroger for my brats. Meanwhile the debt, deficit, extra judicial killing, the erosion of our civil rights continue.

http://kaystreet.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/condi-rice-pours-cold-water-on-benghazi-gate/

[FaninAma]

I think this guy deserbes some answers:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/father-slain-seal-who-made-decision-not-save-my-son_657782.html

Prophet, I see you are on board with Obama's plan of redirecting the blame. Romney could have put a stake through the heart of the Democratic nominee's campaign by simply saying ,"In my administration I will never direct a subordinate to go public with misleading information and I will never allow a subordinate to take the blame for a policy failure."

[SoonerProphet]

I think this guy deserbes some answers:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/father-slain-seal-who-made-decision-not-save-my-son_657782.html

Prophet, I see you are on board with Obama's plan of redirecting the blame. Romney could have put a stake through the heart of the Democratic nominee's campaign by simply saying ,"In my administration I will never direct a subordinate to go public with misleading information and I will never allow a subordinate to take the blame for a policy failure."

Fanin,

Don't give me that, he is not my guy nor am I rushing to his defense. I am simply saying that anything beyond letting the facts play out is a rush to judgement. And to your point about Mitt, he barely touched Benghazi in the fp debate and I think the Prez has come out and said the buck stops with him.

[FaninAma]

Fanin,

Don't give me that, he is not my guy nor am I rushing to his defense. I am simply saying that anything beyond letting the facts play out is a rush to judgement. And to your point about Mitt, he barely touched Benghazi in the fp debate and I think the Prez has come out and said the buck stops with him.

It was sort of a cheap shot. Apologies. My point is that I feel that individuals high up in this administration knew our personnel were under imminent danger. Their priority
should have been to send them help and worry about the repercussions of over-reacting later.

The way they handled it makes their motives appear to be purely motivated by political considerations.

[TitoMorelli]

In case anyone would like to help the families of the those who lost their lives:



Ty Woods Memorial Account, c/o The Irving Group, 4320 La Jolla Village Drive, San Diego, CA 92122.

The Glen Doherty Memorial Foundation
P.O. Box 716
Marblehead, MA 01945

[soonercruiser]

Today's testimony was the Sec. Def., who said that DOD had the resources available to launch during the attack within an hour. But, the decision was made to holf off, for the reason that there would have been too many colateral casualties.
Too bad they didn't just ask the Marines if they wanted to drop in and "protect their own".

[MamaMia]

Fanin,

Don't give me that, he is not my guy nor am I rushing to his defense. I am simply saying that anything beyond letting the facts play out is a rush to judgement. And to your point about Mitt, he barely touched Benghazi in the fp debate and I think the Prez has come out and said the buck stops with him.He's damn right that the buck stops with him and the people who thought it would be a good idea to have a fast talking Community Organizer as a member of congress and even worse...Commander and Chief. The man is a jerk off. What happened in Benghazi proves it now, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[SoonerProphet]

"(The) basic principle is that you don't deploy forces into harm's way without knowing what's going on; without having some real-time information about what's taking place," Panetta told Pentagon reporters.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/panetta-us-lacked-early-info-on-benghazi/story-e6frf7k6-1226503591355

[cleller]

I think this guy deserbes some answers:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/father-slain-seal-who-made-decision-not-save-my-son_657782.html

Prophet, I see you are on board with Obama's plan of redirecting the blame. Romney could have put a stake through the heart of the Democratic nominee's campaign by simply saying ,"In my administration I will never direct a subordinate to go public with misleading information and I will never allow a subordinate to take the blame for a policy failure."


"(The) basic principle is that you don't deploy forces into harm's way without knowing what's going on; without having some real-time information about what's taking place," Panetta told Pentagon reporters.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/panetta-us-lacked-early-info-on-benghazi/story-e6frf7k6-1226503591355

With regard to what Panetta says about real-time info, it sounds like they had it, but he also is trying to cover for his boss.

What I get from reading both stories is that we had a military that felt able to handle the job, but the administration lacked the nerve. They did not want the risk, responsibility, fallout, something.

There's no good way to dress up a completely fouled up situation like this one. I had hoped that at least Hilary would stand up and and not avoid the truth with the families of the victims, but guess not.

[sappstuf]

"(The) basic principle is that you don't deploy forces into harm's way without knowing what's going on; without having some real-time information about what's taking place," Panetta told Pentagon reporters.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/panetta-us-lacked-early-info-on-benghazi/story-e6frf7k6-1226503591355

We had a drone flying overhead supplying "real-time information" in addition to the feeds from the security cameras of the consulate.

I think Panetta is an OK guy, but this is about the dumbest thing he could have said:


"And we were prepared to respond to any contingency. And certainly had forces in place to do that," he said.

Any contingency except getting attacked apparently...

[TitoMorelli]

Fox News (yeah, yeah, I know, Fox News) has learned from sources who were on the ground in Benghazi that three urgent requests from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. Consulate and subsequent attack nearly seven hours later were denied by officials in the CIA chain of command — who also told the CIA operators to “stand down” rather than help the ambassador’s team when shots were heard at approximately 9:40 p.m. in Benghazi on Sept. 11.

Former Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were part of a small team who were at the CIA annex about a mile from the U.S. Consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and his team came under attack. When they heard the shots fired, they radioed to inform their higher-ups to tell them what they were hearing. They were told to “stand down,” according to sources familiar with the exchange. An hour later, they called again to headquarters and were again told to “stand down.”

Woods, Doherty and at least two others ignored those orders and made their way to the Consulate which at that point was on fire.

The quick reaction force from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the Consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack. They could not find the ambassador and returned to the CIA annex at about midnight.
At that point, they called again for military support and help because they were taking fire at the CIA safe house, or annex. The request was denied. There were no communications problems at the annex, according those present at the compound. The team was in constant radio contact with their headquarters. In fact, at least one member of the team was on the roof of the annex manning a heavy machine gun when mortars were fired at the CIA compound. The security officer had a laser on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Specter gunship, which is commonly used by U.S. Special Operations forces to provide support to Special Operations teams on the ground involved in intense firefights. The fighting at the CIA annex went on for more than four hours — enough time for any planes based in Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away, to arrive. Fox News has also learned that two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them Delta Force operators.

A Special Operations team, or CIF which stands for Commanders in Extremis Force, operating in Central Europe had been moved to Sigonella, Italy, but they too were told to stand down. A second force that specializes in counterterrorism rescues was on hand at Sigonella, according to senior military and intelligence sources. According to those sources, they could have flown to Benghazi in less than two hours. They were the same distance to Benghazi as those that were sent from Tripoli. Specter gunships are commonly used by the Special Operations community to provide close air support.

According to sources on the ground, the special operator on the roof of the CIA annex had visual contact and a laser pointing at the Libyan mortar team that was targeting the CIA annex. The operators were calling in coordinates of where the Libyan forces were firing from.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/26/cia-operators-were-denied-request-for-help-during-benghazi-attack-sources-say/

[sappstuf]

Fox News (yeah, yeah, I know, Fox News) has learned from sources who were on the ground in Benghazi that three urgent requests from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. Consulate and subsequent attack nearly seven hours later were denied by officials in the CIA chain of command — who also told the CIA operators to “stand down” rather than help the ambassador’s team when shots were heard at approximately 9:40 p.m. in Benghazi on Sept. 11.

Former Navy SEALs Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty were part of a small team who were at the CIA annex about a mile from the U.S. Consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and his team came under attack. When they heard the shots fired, they radioed to inform their higher-ups to tell them what they were hearing. They were told to “stand down,” according to sources familiar with the exchange. An hour later, they called again to headquarters and were again told to “stand down.”

Woods, Doherty and at least two others ignored those orders and made their way to the Consulate which at that point was on fire.

The quick reaction force from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the Consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack. They could not find the ambassador and returned to the CIA annex at about midnight.
At that point, they called again for military support and help because they were taking fire at the CIA safe house, or annex. The request was denied. There were no communications problems at the annex, according those present at the compound. The team was in constant radio contact with their headquarters. In fact, at least one member of the team was on the roof of the annex manning a heavy machine gun when mortars were fired at the CIA compound. The security officer had a laser on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Specter gunship, which is commonly used by U.S. Special Operations forces to provide support to Special Operations teams on the ground involved in intense firefights. The fighting at the CIA annex went on for more than four hours — enough time for any planes based in Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away, to arrive. Fox News has also learned that two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them Delta Force operators.

A Special Operations team, or CIF which stands for Commanders in Extremis Force, operating in Central Europe had been moved to Sigonella, Italy, but they too were told to stand down. A second force that specializes in counterterrorism rescues was on hand at Sigonella, according to senior military and intelligence sources. According to those sources, they could have flown to Benghazi in less than two hours. They were the same distance to Benghazi as those that were sent from Tripoli. Specter gunships are commonly used by the Special Operations community to provide close air support.

According to sources on the ground, the special operator on the roof of the CIA annex had visual contact and a laser pointing at the Libyan mortar team that was targeting the CIA annex. The operators were calling in coordinates of where the Libyan forces were firing from.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/26/cia-operators-were-denied-request-for-help-during-benghazi-attack-sources-say/

So repeated requests for help.. Special forces were less than 2 hours away. CIA operatives were lazing the Libyan mortar team and calling in coordinates of the other fighting positions.

So much for the no "real-time information" theory... It barely lasted a day.

[MamaMia]

Wasn't it just 14 extra security people that our deceased ambassador asked for?

[Harry Beanbag]

This is absolutely disgraceful no matter what kind of smoke Prophet is blowing up our ***.

[cleller]

We're getting an idea of who the administration feels is expendable, and why. Too bad there is only one news source that will really cover it.

[SicEmBaylor]

This is absolutely disgraceful no matter what kind of smoke Prophet is blowing up our ***.
Yep. Absolutely right.

[cleller]

Maybe in a few years one of these generals involved with this will retire and tell the real story.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

This is totally, 100% on The ****ing Lying Socialist. End of story.

[sappstuf]

Listen to this caller to Rush.. He knows what he is talking about in reference to how soon the White House would have known that the embassy was under attack within minutes on the top secret side.

lljKmmZyCiw

Obama would have known within minutes of the attack.. It is undebatable.

Now look at what the CIA said today:


We can say with confidence that the Agency reacted quickly to aid our colleagues during that terrible evening in Benghazi. Moreover, no one at any level in the CIA told anybody not to help those in need; claims to the contrary are simply inaccurate.

Sounds like General Petraeus doesn't want to take the fall... But it leads to the obvious question, if the CIA didn't order it and the president knew within minutes that the consulate was under attack, who would have made that decision? There can only be 2 answers. Obama, or someone else with Obama being fully briefed about the situation and decision that was made and could have reversed it at any time by Obama himself.

Sounds like Obama may have voted "present"...

[cleller]

Listen to this caller to Rush.. He knows what he is talking about in reference to how soon the White House would have known that the embassy was under attack within minutes on the top secret side.


That's good stuff. The guy obviously knows what he's discussing.

Plainly someone decided it was better to sacrifice the personnel over other options.

[sappstuf]

Lt. Col. Tony Schafer told Fox News that sources were telling him that the President was watching the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya in real-time. Schafer told Fox that "only the President" could have ordered backup for the Americans who were under siege by terrorists so the President was most certainly informed of the situation as it was unfolding. "I hate to say this," Schafer said, "according to my sources, yes, [the President] was one of those in the White House situation room in real-time watching this. And the question becomes, 'What did the President do or not do in the moments he saw this unveiling?' He -- only he -- could issue a directive to Secretary of Defense Panetta to do something."

..

[Breadburner]

Is there a reason he is called commander in chief....???

[sappstuf]

http://www.investors.com/image/RAMclr-103012-standdown-IBD.jpg.cms

[TheHumanAlphabet]

So repeated requests for help.. Special forces were less than 2 hours away. CIA operatives were lazing the Libyan mortar team and calling in coordinates of the other fighting positions.

So much for the no "real-time information" theory... It barely lasted a day.

I have read that an AC-130 was in the area and that one of the SEALs was painting targets. There was no authorization to shoot as the administration was afraid of colateral damage and a Carter Desert One fiasco...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I have also read that General Ham was relieved of his Africom command after he said he was going to do something while on call to the situation room. He hung up the phone and was ordering a mission. His XO, General Rodriguez was then telephoned by either Paneta or The Socialist and told him to relieve Gen. Ham of command, he did. Ham was sent to the US. I read he is retiring. Rodriguez has been offered to the Senate for confirmation to Africom. This stinks to high heaven. Contact your Senators to have them vote against confirmation.

Also, same dealio with RA Gaouette on the Stennis Carrier Strike Group in the Med. He was reassigned due to "inappropriate judgement". I have also read that it may stem from an alcohol incident at a port of call in Thailand. However, at that level, that sounds dubious. I bet he was going to do something as well and was stood down.

I claim shenanigans on the part of The Socialist's administration, ruined two careers over a lack of fortitude to do something to save Americans because it didn't meet their political narrative...

'Vet or others military, have you read or heard the same thing or something different?

[champions77]

So why the coverup by this Administration?
This event by Muslim radical terrorists would give the impression that the Obama Administration's foreign policy was a failure. We have been led to believe that Al-Quaeda had been diminished by this Administration, that the killing of Osama Bin Laden, as well as drone strikes against other Al-Qaeda leaders had severly weakened their organization, and Obama was quick to take full responsibility for these "perceived" successes. A planned attack on an American Consulate, resulting in the deaths of an American Ambassador and three others would send a message to the contrary, and that could not be allowed to happen, especially within a little under two months until the elections.

So Obama blames the attacks on a video, that it was a video that enraged the crowd, resulting in an improtue attack on the compound and the killing of Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans. This deception was coordinated and implemented by Team Obama, and was communicated through the main stream media outlets by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, UN Ambassador Susan Rice, Press Secretary Jay Carney and of course President Obama himself.

This action was a carefully orchestrated attempt to deceive the American public by lies, distortions and misinformation. All done to maintain the deception that the Obama Administration's foreign policy of apology, appeasement and compromise was indeed working. It is not.

[cleller]

The White House has never been so happy to see a hurricane.

[soonercruiser]

I have also read that General Ham was relieved of his Africom command after he said he was going to do something while on call to the situation room. He hung up the phone and was ordering a mission. His XO, General Rodriguez was then telephoned by either Paneta or The Socialist and told him to relieve Gen. Ham of command, he did. Ham was sent to the US. I read he is retiring. Rodriguez has been offered to the Senate for confirmation to Africom. This stinks to high heaven. Contact your Senators to have them vote against confirmation.

Also, same dealio with RA Gaouette on the Stennis Carrier Strike Group in the Med. He was reassigned due to "inappropriate judgement". I have also read that it may stem from an alcohol incident at a port of call in Thailand. However, at that level, that sounds dubious. I bet he was going to do something as well and was stood down.

I claim shenanigans on the part of The Socialist's administration, ruined two careers over a lack of fortitude to do something to save Americans because it didn't meet their political narrative...

'Vet or others military, have you read or heard the same thing or something different?

I haven't heard more than I have already posted.
There was an investigative report by one of the woman foreign correspondants that there was something bigger behind the Libya consolate attack that they were investigating. Nothing more of any substance.

If your rumors are true, it won't take long for the truth to leak out.
OH! WAIT! It would have to leak out of the WH!
My bad!

[Harry Beanbag]

Rumors that the whole deal was due to the US funneling Libyan arms to Syria and Russia is pissed. Rumors continue that it wasn't an al Quaida attack, but Syrian military. Very explosive if true, but just Internet rumors at this point. Doubt we'll ever hear that story confirmed by anyone if true.

I'm not even going to post a link, but it is out there. Google "Benghazi arms Syria". Ive seen it on both a crazy right wing site and a lunatic left wing site so who knows.

[FaninAma]

Rumors that the whole deal was due to the US funneling Libyan arms to Syria and Russia is pissed. Rumors continue that it wasn't an al Quaida attack, but Syrian military. Very explosive if true, but just Internet rumors at this point. Doubt we'll ever hear that story confirmed by anyone if true.

I'm not even going to post a link, but it is out there. Google "Benghazi arms Syria". Ive
seen it on both a crazy right wing site and a lunatic left wing site so who knows.

It is interesting that the only combatant connected to the attack was arrested traveling through a Turkish airport(I believe). The US has been denied(or haven't demanded) access to this guy. Was he on his way back to Syria? Sounds feasible.

Is that why there is such a ****storm in the upper military command with General Ham being replaced? The President and Hilliary didn't want any of the attackers captured because the truth would come out?

[Harry Beanbag]

It is interesting that the only combatant connected to the attack was arrested traveling through a Turkish airport(I believe). The US has been denied(or haven't demanded) access to this guy. Was he on his way back to Syria? Sounds feasible.

Is that why there is such a ****storm in the upper military command with General Ham being replaced? The President and Hilliary didn't want any of the attackers captured because the truth would come out?

It is interesting. As much as I roll my eyes at conspiracy theorists, there does seem to be more to this thing than we know. One of the articles I've read said that WWIII will start over Syria, not Iran, the Korean Peninsula, Taiwan, etc. There was a quote attributed to Putin saying something about Syria being Russia's line in the sand.

And the short sighted, naive Libs are scoffing at Romney saying Russia is our biggest adversary. :rolleyes:

[cleller]

The Syrian army could admit responsibility and Obama would still blame the video, with Chris Mathews and MSNBC backing him up.

[LiveLaughLove]

The White House has never been so happy to see a hurricane.

This times one thousand.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Supposedly, there are audio tapes of the pleading for help. If so, may The Murdering, Lying Socialist and Clinton smoke a huge turd in hell forever!

question is will those tapes ever be heard by the public if they exist.

[Midtowner]

It is interesting that the only combatant connected to the attack was arrested traveling through a Turkish airport(I believe). The US has been denied(or haven't demanded) access to this guy. Was he on his way back to Syria? Sounds feasible.

Strangely enough, the U.S. doesn't conduct its covert ops by holding press conferences. If he's in Turkish custody, we have the benefit of plausible deniability as to interrogation tactics. But yeah, I'm sure that our intelligence community, as you suggest is just totally ignoring this.


Is that why there is such a ****storm in the upper military command with General Ham being replaced? The President and Hilliary didn't want any of the attackers captured because the truth would come out?

****storm? This is just a pile of **** being stirred up and reshaped into something it's not by The Blaze and other phony news sources. Even Condoleeza Rice has gone on the record and actively downplayed the hysterical right's viewpoint of this.

[Midtowner]

Supposedly, there are audio tapes of the pleading for help. If so, may The Murdering, Lying Socialist and Clinton smoke a huge turd in hell forever!

question is will those tapes ever be heard by the public if they exist.

The imaginary tapes can be released, right along with etch-a-sketch's tax returns.

[SoonerProphet]

data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBhQSEBQUEhMWFRQWGBkYGBgYGBcaFxgcFhgYFRcdGB gXHSYfGBwkHBUXHy8gIycpLCwsFR4xNTAqNSYrLCkBCQoKDgwO Gg8PGiwkHB8sKSwsKSkpKSwpLCkpKSksKSksKSksLCwpKSwpLC wsKSksKSwsLCksLCwsLCkpLCwsKf/AABEIAMgAyAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAACAgMBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAFBgMEAAIHAQj/xABEEAACAQIFAQYDBQUFBwQDAAABAgMAEQQFEiExQQYTIlFhcT KBkQcUI6GxQlLB0fAVJDNikkNTcoKz4fEWosLiJnSy/8QAGQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgMAAQQF/8QAJxEAAgIBAwQCAgMBAAAAAAAAAAECEQMSITEEE0FRIpEyYRR CcQX/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/AE9PMVJi1Hd1HPEDbepWCgHrQjCpgRuoPU0SDlW9uKHYc+NaJy RahcfEKTkhqX7H4cmh78MM4PL5ZMJJilxPdquKjg0d2pAWR4UZ yxN7gSsf+WisvZzEDA4rExY3vDA06qohS0ncsV5Dcm3SqGXSKe z+MDW3xiXU23GqC+3Uc0xfZ3mMcWBwkd1CyY3Ex6drAf3hwLdB +GPyp0XsjPLl0K/2g5DJlzRk4gz97HiH3jVNJhEdraSb37w/Sri/ZlKHib742l8M04buU2ZQpKc8Wcb87VV+1jNVnw2BlVgwkhxzbE HZzCRx6V0jB56hibDkr4cDHIpuLnUjo4+WlP8AVRA2xFyHsfLi YMM747u8RioWmijWFTEFQJfWSdRP4qcEc8bVBkGTLiMA+LfMmi EO2IUYdSInABdQSbta43F6a+xUqvh8qxSunc4fBzRzNqH4bMMP YN5f4T/SkfsriFPZ3ODcDXLIygmxIaONgbexotUvZRmQ4Z8bFOZ53w0GE iSSTu47ySmTvLMVbiwjJ02PNT4HsU02YTYVcerRRQibv40RiQz WCsAxW4sbkc7bCrHYt5/vuMkw8oWZYYimHbTpxQvLcMWIKkGwuONfWmKbLcJBiM4dGTDxN hYhIYgpKO3fmUqg2LW0G3maTGKkraHSnKDaTEybsbOJ8xgXEs0 mEjjkiHdr+OHU31b+GzADbzqxiuxjK+YomOZjgYY5D+EnieRZW KnfYARr6+KmyeUJ2nhkVwUnwZDbix0Hb570r9l8wMn/AKmaRwSxIBJG4U4lQB52AAqduHorvZPbLg+z6cFD98bQ+FbEau 5X4k0kp8XFnHrzXmUdhZZocOXx2jE4iEzRxiBTCFTu7q5J1E3l XcEc8G27xhs9QxPhyV8OBjkU3FzrR1cfLSn+qhmU4LD42DLHmi w82HGGZWMmklJLQ6VUE8nS9xb9kVO3D0TvZPbETstlz5gSUmOH 0YYTnSoa7FiLeK1htRfCrbKxmH9qsIwtj/dl/wAT4dPNz4/DeqX2OTAGXUQP7gAL7ftt51Bk7qeySKSLnFJ4bi9vvS9KXHFDT ug8k5SlV+hlw2GnJxDPmQGHgEQLxwxl9cqqx1XJVUUMu/8AmPFt6eJzGYd5AJ45XXEYeFJ0UaWXEsBcqCRqXxXF+gO16g+z jCyRzYs4WRQVMQOEsoSZGG77kFWF3Fxf4RcHariYGBM5WLD6Fg GLSVgpGhXXDTd4B0G7RG3Q0p4McoxaiuUKlcW0bZ7lk2DngR8S cRHOJluY1TQ8QQqLqd7hn/0Uu6vEfemvtfNC+FhljmMndZhICSACDI8sLKAOVDOAG6gA+tKb/EfemqCjP4lx3Jg1YTXgFYacQwtWVqayrBFtHXYV5iraTbmq0Rs wualxcgHFDYRtl62aMHy/lR2TD6TcUGy/fERj0P8ACm7EYbSfSoiC5j8kRm71UUvydt9uvvVfDYeEuS8KMT zqUE0xmCxutU8Vlyub/C3mKCUG3aY7HkS2krQMnwUKkmONVuN7C1DssyhJMQkceG752BI jRQSQLXJLWAA8yRRGfVGbONQ8xTR9kBX7/iyOfuot5jxm9qGLnqSkHkUIwbiwRjcpjWdYpsudcS9u7jMaM0g 81ZSUIFt7nbrUuZ5dpliimy6RcVKW7pWSMs4QXOhwxXwjexItt TP2BxmJkxGUfeYVRFwU/cuJC7SgjDXLAjwm2k2ufiPlRdt/7FJ3P3qXfrvDiOvyrTN6lTMcHpdo5hmOELJrlwUpQSmEFkUnvd WgxgKxYtqFthaosx7KPh+77/LXj7xgkfhjbU7GyrdGOkknbVausducQY8NBNhI++dsdFIsdwNb XKst+FJsd+h3oZ2oR5RDPBKyRff8L96wsoUvHKZYbWYE6SLoSL kENcHzT2kO78uaX0c8xvZV4AvfZdJGHdUW6IQzsdKrdWIUkmwv Yb1NH2Smd2jGWSs8QXUtorpquV/btvY8eVdE7ddoYY8QMIGkeeXF4Fyug93Gomjtd+N+7O3NzRHM3 QPnJleSOMRQlni/xFASS5T/ADDkVXZj+/svvy9L6OSQZAHmaBMvdp1Gp4u7VXUbbnUQLb9Ca9jyVZJ2gXAM +KX44tCa0FgbudWkCzCxvveupypOM1zSWKMNKmDgWFVO7ljMy3 JtpJKEfSvJsKEzLOGGxfAxPfrxOv8A8R9KnZXt/ZP5EvS+jmeLyKQu0cmXy64U1spWM6I/3gdVmGx+G/FaJlqpIjSYUws6d5Gzql2XYahpJtyObc034DPcT/aOVpjMOkST4aSBSkhcurJG13Fha2kefxGhva2bXmc4AsmHWPDI P+BA7H561/00nLjjCDav7HYc0pzSaX0XOz/Z6DEF2nhSUKoA1qDYkk7fIUxy9msMYhEcPEY1NwmgaQT1A8617 NYbRh0/zeL68fkKKneuDPLK9mLzO5tihjezOGibWmHiVl4IUAigPU+9O2 dr4TSSp3PvXW6GTkrbFky14TWCvbV0iiMisrdq8qyhIVSzVNLE LVPDYCq5bxfOlkLeWrbFx+x/UV0Bhe1c/wAt3xiegp71eIUa4KZtJgTe4qtLhT1FG4ZK2ZA1WBqEvEReI1H hcVJg5FxEEixylSgUrrV0JFy4uNttvnRjMlRNTMLgcji/kPnSpisWXYsbEnk9PLYcD09qz5cml7GvFBSW5exXbLGNiIcQJY 42w4ZIkSO0Sq9tYKarm+leo+EV5j+3WNknw8xeJThizRIsREd3 UqxZdXiNibbi1zQCWbzv/OozY7lreg5pPdn7GPHj9BXEdrsW8CwGZAqz/eVYR+NZDIZhYliLBm2FuBar+b/aFjZ1QM8CBZY5joit3jxMrKZPFuLquw38PNL90FttR/d4HzNQywxk+MgHawBG1GskvYPaj4QXzDtBPiMT95kePvtULAqh CAwNrS66jffner+N7Z4yZcUryQgYtAktoTwqlRp8exsx86C/2KjgEBgPNf51rJlJX4ZTt6/1ep3H7C7S8oY8b2yxs33nVLCpxMaxSMsLBtKBwuk95sR3jfWrk Pa/GtOJmnh1d13JHcEo6Xv4x3lyd+b9TSgYJVF7qw+n517FmI2v4f I9D8xtVdyYSxY/Q6Yw4mfERYvv4nmgt3IWIrHGBcEd1qub35v0G1Q4fDyS4l2lYN LO+pyq6QCVVNlJJFgg60CwuNtR3A55ZgWFyOCed/WkZZTkmrHRxRhvFbnRoALAAbAWHy2qagGBzfWLqb/wq4My23rjyxtMwSi09yHOEuCfSkheT7064/E6kY+lJCHc+9dfoFsCywtbGsWsNdNAmlqytgtZVkE5gwHFa4OM PIt/P9KzEztqq1lUZD7jm9LohmUJ/ftum36V0AQ+MUgZDvjb+p/WujaSGvRx4BbJxFWCOt4739a8bGmOTbQFXkkBmJ62v8IHmByaq U1EGMHJ7A3MOzsswGn4SSxItwBYeJth1896X8+yxIUAYoN7/Hqf/hJ6n2sKbjmlydbk6l1C9iRbgXPPtSxmSzTvpQRyRg9FjGrz1HT qX2uayOab3N0VJKhMnwrTPpQeHz671cj7OkHT1o3NHHEbIdA50 8lehFx8XuatZe9ze1qpsbCNs0yzIwCA1ifO1Go8sQ7WFvKwrRD uD5UTw5pTNkaRmFyCH935ira9moT+yPmKkw7miMB87GhCdAifs lGwtp+a8+ntSzmvYgi5PiUjg3297frXQkYeRqHFSAqb3/Oi4F6VLk4fistaBSw+EbMt729j0+dSYXFXF+enqKcO0uV+IyLv cb2/UjqKR58MVa8fz3Fqv8hcloYxZfmRQhgaesudZ4gy7Hhh5GuX4O U7U/fZ+pLzAcaFJ97kD+P0rJmXxsVmScdRNm0LIh3uKV4DT5n8X4Te 1c+iNaeifxZhuwkor0moUBrfuzXSKNhJWVporyrKF+fDDY8V7H JY3vXslQMKeoIFtpkuWERziQm48vc04p2qiJHNJNEsvjjJW99d/h2UN/zbkfT6VTioolWOuEzpC1tw3IHWtc6lCXPeKxtc+G2kn/Kb3oThcwCCyCNLk8qfFfyYm9/8xNeiISL4xZj5G9hwdz865+V7mnFGgJjcRIHuCeOvW4oQc7IfY b9d7Vex0gudr7n19uKHRwjm3P1/Ok0jSlfBFFK8kl+Lm5pywEAVR+dLWCAD8b/1wKZsPutWxmNeyx97Uc39upr3+2bXNiB7fyqpisMVW63v7Xt/Kq2FWUqzGQIoBYeHvC1ugAZbX897VcY6tkHJ0GML2uUNY2NNGC zaN1uODauaiIyaCVFzYAqCDqIJ0EEbnw8g2NF8gmOoLxQTWkKD sfPvSb77VWx2IUD4qWc8x7KTGptxc+9B4Ipb/GvzN/yvVJWi29PAx4t7+oPFIOJhtK6ggWb0vvzTG+LaMayVKruemw3N H+yWUiSHW4jGslt0Gpi29yTx7dKpICTtbiZHhNt7G+xOkfLe9d F7HYFYoSB8TG7noDawUHyFz73o1gsoiivxt7W+h/jViPCJvoAQeltN/wDhG1BmwucdjFlbapATtEv4Te1c+jjrpec4V2jYKurb9nn6fyr n/ckbMLEcg7H5g03o4ShGpGeqNAK2tUjAVAz2roENrVlVzLWVZVA pxuaiCb1sz1LgpAJF1cXrTDgGWwUh7IytGHsLHp1qn3HdvZ1vY 7rx8r10WPMFTQSR3ajeudZ3mIlnd1+Enao1YuMmHMHLC+66mdv hjCE3Pqb8CrGb4UxRsuvUSAHawNiem3HPAqj2azDdEjLRt1YcO P8AMbXWxO3N79Kbc4iSTDk/ENOlh1SxsT73uDWGeNs0LJTo5y+HBICsBsbbdB89jVI4cm9gTY n/ALb1Yx6F1OrhCLEjpY2HvY3PuKF4XOzCTrQsp502BB+ZsenlWe UbNcJJPcIYdNxej+GlHA6UuYcFwjr4Vbex5Hl70Tw81jehY+Iz QgNt51G+TODdSp+qn8rg1DgsWKsYjOtINt7c77D3padcGhpUbP K0e7fEfUk+9UMiUNKTUX39p0JGwHAtzarfZqI95c1HuCqsmzaM G5K3sdze1txzbpQbH4SKViwsL2uiqtjY3FiOPlbnrTRBKA5v16 +dWlwsfKgX9h/KijNxVFSxqT3EPH5D4IkLE9492B/dQAket9qc0zAQKq/X5AH9P0odj3U4lQT4lTUB7n/6il3t7mTIY1UWut7nh1JsAB1sTz0vbrUjbI0kjqeHzaOUbH4hv 05AO9FIwrC21v4V8+ZH2mljOltxfb09PUU+ZP2yNwG/WjuhDinwdUjnHBAqDM8mhxK/iLc9CNmHsaWsJ2hDdRRLA5vr+H0+d6ZGYiWDyhQ7Qdl3w299cf 71rEejD+NL7iutY/MIu6JcjysevpYVw7NMzkXESKgsinw3FxY9Ljm38a0YrnsKWNvY IVlQZfi+9Um1jf8A8V5RSi4uhck4ugezVCxFSyYpuhNepKx9vO w/lXSXTbcml9Jfk8fEMRYsSPK9eCvHxC2/ZHt/EVX+/LfYH1JNh+hJoHiaZnl0006QYyrNWgfUo5IuT6Aj6b0yNnYddLL 4mA1C+wPT3NgL/KkL+0F6lfz/AFO1GIMeLBgSp/eB36XAI4HnWfJiYUcMlyXM5kGkAC/Pw789STzSpj/CONrEmiubyhms3wk3tz0/KhUeGMngQc3/AJVz5ppjf9CmB2SMf5QKv4aMXe/AvVTMcMYn0HlbfpsR6fyNS4bEjSQaSzVFoKrg2CqL2uL3/hQzMsVsFUiwvceophwMwZFVhccH2NAcf2aKykJK22+lxqDD0b4 h+dDGhlNgdMQyNdSabMi7SDTa1z12J/OhuDyU/tRxvYXILWN/IA7GiGLvABriZL22Fnv14XepRStbBPF4sumw023FTYPMfCNqD4 fMVZtJDA+RVlP0YCr5so4Av9KrSGnSFrtNmBXHQkc6CD82uP0N GJsujx8EetindtclQC4uCCAG2tx9KBZrEGEsp+JmjC/5URtre5vf3Aq5lAdGjkWRFWQhGDX5JsLAc1c3T2FRdp2GT9kyA AxYxh1u8Ste/qjrtVSTsLMuwmib5On5b/rTur92gTnTt9P+9VmnrAupnZh7klwIGc4GfCxKxkV1LBSFDXAI JvqPtbjrU2X/AGgrCpBJY+QXffnmwHveiXbdQcFL5izf6TqrmLy3segNjXZ6RR ywuQ6OR1uMGb9u8RObj8O9976m3/zWAHyAoJFijquzE+pJJ396rSH8qyPj8q6mNKPBUZOxoyTEgOVO wYfn0rKEYWbcH6/oa9p8unU9xssSk7JMTKb7H5VSjx++/wDK/T5HbmrUkFz8Y+g2/wDd61XmyxiNrE+lXL9BSvwWwFffz5F7E7dL7X9K87kEeY9Rv86 oYaORDxceflbj3oiJTbcG4/q3l8/SpGfhkjK+SF4P6/leqzMwPJI/rn1q0+LHRT87/oKikkB6EG3QXH15q5xTJJJkcmY6QLe5Pt710T7P8qBiM721M9i BvpVB4QfUsxbb+FI+S5W0s8ZW1lZSxYHSNxYkDm27W9PWuu4IC HBq+7GWdwgbYsoLWY248Crtxdq500lIxZbA/bXLQ6CRfijHi9VJ/wDjz8zSTqNdLeYMt/Pn5+fpXP8AOcr7l7D4D8Pp6fKsmaHlDMMnwy9kWMOqx6UXzWIs VI5HB9DyKVcum0uDTng8YGQX6Vjo3RZRhxLDawNXsMdRuVAvz6/Kp/uQvxt6Vpi50hQsdrW9T5AepJ2AFWlYxypFbMnAN+D5c0u5vmTM Ci8HZj6eQqj2uzaRMSIXGhrDWAbsmvcKbcNYgketQpJfTY9K0L FStmDJmvgLRYV5IQkYBsV2va4F7b+m1X8s7EzloxIUCAhmIa7C xvYC25Pnetez7WtTnhcRXOzZHFtIV3ZJUiziEuSfOqpWrUkgtV WSTasCEgTtHBeB1/eBH1FceSTbj0YeR/8ANdk7Qyfh1yTtDgjHNccP4l9/2h9d/nXd6B1ALVRGj+fStTKL7Gq6S/WpNretdiLsNNPgv4SXp/W/Fe1Sjk3/AK/KsrUsmxqhlpF15iLeI/0PWtTiD1sR7CpscRqtsaqWB3pMWDqaLAxZ/wAp+VaSYom/T2HyFRKvlXu9+atE1M94qKTFb7n3reRrA1f7P5OZGV3IC6rWPL W3JA8h5+dLnKgW72Gjs7gXwsKOV1SYgjSoJBVSLLYD5ksT6AU4 3toiJJMKWPleWzN87KPrSfnOexB0CCQnhdPAGoKGO23F6KZJOx klAILG27MfFYW3PpasWWW1CmrYcngPK9Of/FDMZgO9BBQkWuSASV9duKzFZvNATrw4dF5aJrkDzKEA/QmpsN2mheMzQNdkUkaCVbYeYpClRTXoSDhyrMpsSpsf526e3Sr GExzJwdv68qccfjVxixSsg120mUKHEikBgXUWOpb2B3BueL0z9 jIMGQbL+MDxKEU+hRVJUj6nzpSxuUthzzKELfIpZJleOxQHdxF E6vISi/La7fIU55L2PTDkPK/fSrc95psse2/dJc2a1/ESTzxTHPMxNuP1t/ClDtR2qhMM8ETl5CpS0ZUm4t4Rfz1C54AvvWyGKMOTFLPkyuvB wPM8wOJxU0x2Mkjt6gFjpB8rAAfKrcWZhW0txyG8r770RXsbiD 4nCIebl7Dfc9OPStcb2TxUSPMViZEXUfHc7DfTtvTbhVWPpRjT D+R4lQLllA9SKYoM0hv/AIye2oVyzDZn3guYrL5iS30FqnixI8RAOkbXO9z6e1IfQYsj/IYowl5OwRThh4WDexB/SopnsK45NmW/gUA+fDHy4o5gu1GJCBGcNYX3FyPRiTuKzS/5L/pIrtpvYbM4mvHS3jstXERaGNjyrfunz9vMVc/tQTR6tgb2IBvY16ttqLBjeO4yESVOjnOKwDo7Iwsw5H6W8x61B HMRs1MHa5j95F+NC2+pv/ChQkvswvXRxqyox9GorK1+7j9lreh/gaym7h7l2STe53JrCRXspHS/zrQtRpGmja9ZesvXnUVRRrJsvl/XWn7s/l6JGugFtSadSruSCSCBzY349qXeyuTCeVlsGOk2QkC9+u/l5+tOnZeRoY5gIy7Q6S6PsQLHUV3OpRba1ibjbilTe5KFTM8Qy 3aSNgLWY2JAIZgVO/I9qacqy7XCjo/xDVcetLObYhWml1HYOQPFceEDVbVyAzEHyINF+ymafhLEqFjqa xFgiqDa5PP0FYsgsOBmU/iaWPF9wbfI1RzDuU8cUKpKTfWgOokb725B2vRLMMqJjZEciUox 1DYL0G3Uk0F/s9ZWTuQ0czC85DHSthbe1gW2NqRZCjlnaXq5MXdnxar6S242PH 7RPzFFsR2gXQS2ll9g1/ID1O31q3jpxHHsNlKrvY3Hwgtfk7g0t5zDHBNFKSscTaVt+0WW 5L7DbewPv6VaITLHJLI7R92VY38TADi1rEE7W49KIQZXIBaScK P3U2H/ALbX+detgtchkiIDMPxE6ORw626+fntUxy+QDVYEenIqWXRSzP KMP3TlR4wCbm9yR53qvJ4csmBJ0FOPIE8D86zMZ7/hjk80L7WY4xpFAh48b9PRB+p+QpmKOqRTFlkDsEQ2TcnjYdenN Szy8Kuyjp6Vosu3w2Py9ulvqKiLo1xcqeD1H6XHzrox+K3KvSj 3C7tqPuPlVlAWBtaxO99hwOv8KrRxWF7gi3PT67/nUb423h9T/KjjJIKM0uRhyWSyuLg/Cbg+/wDCi8c17UmPj9HFvD1r3CZ7OHvuw6i2x+YFZ8uNOVpi8jTewS7 YAFojwdL/AKrt+d6ApCf3hTt3YxWGZQCNQ4I3VuR+YG9IUlwSNwRsR6jY1U LXIrgIR4S/X8tv1rKHo3Xesp+tDVJegqa8JrSWYDkgXrRZ16EH50VodaJqxU uQBz6C5+nWq4xSk/EBRzszmUUUjSkxllAVAzhbM506jcG4Ubm3FDaInH2M2QxqsWqK JW8OmQuCrEjcqOu1uBUSZqwxrMyELMVXwg6ZG1bxKx2LXCjY/pRaDtCuhY0nhmfqyuCLn4nKc8XJ361Vxee4OXBNEsiRyDZVeQN qLcNqG6KSxN9rAbikSbZU5R8M9z/ttD92+7AlniQIYpACS5GwUgHfoSPOtexMsMUaQsx763DAC9uQh 4Oni3NUM2zHAzQQS95HFiIrLojI07bNt+7sCD6mhk06hTpxEEk Y3KsQFJvtcEnSfUb0mcRfHkfccWOoXIBezW50geAegJJ4qbBoq RWUWHpSXk3bbfu7hiOFkZiCLcLNYkja/iB96OYjtlh1UFzoDcEEOD7FN/mQKz6WmFext2gS2EmPkhYf8u4qHF5WuKwwVrAqTY/ukjY/qPW9R4rNYsTDMsUiP+G9wDvweleZRn0MUZE0qpqCkaiN7enzqJ FWqAOT5m8DdxMCpjNgeq+XuvkafMDOrrqDEN1A3+dqD5ng8LjY y8cyFo9u8Ujwg9H8xS7lWO7uVYlngmQkjZ9JH/Df9L1NLspSQ0ZrBENUs9lUbixs59Bbi9IOYzGaRpXHic3sDsOg H0puzPtPBBE6ao5JZAUKEhlVeofp626n2pEbGoR8Q253ro9LFR TbGwaS3ZJr6dKHYiO52HFWRiFPB/h+tV3nXfxDk9fpWnI4yRWRxkiHDTMrW8/z/nUmPAuPpb8x/KtsLIhcaiAB7da1x+JDPsw6km/nYfoKxtbGWS+J5G9gAxJPFuSPYf8Aer6sbeMFF6F30k/8qi9VMNZVDBgo8+redh6e9YcVGhut2bz5J92Ow+Qo06KuggoQb 2b3DMv5s1/yqnmbhzr3PQm9729bb1XOLvvcD1ILHz5NeTYpWHNr7W9uLmj1x C1JmujqDesqGOa1eUNoGzsX2CRhsfidQB/AXkA/7SmX7TY0fJsS2OjiimE0q4fYBmCSsISu97tGAT7nYcUu/YCP7/if/wBdf+pTp2xwbx5HmAxbBiWxDR6m1WV5WaAAnghSot0takz/ACYM/wAmWsfh173JvCu7G+w3/urULy/Pu77RYjBCGMpMFkLEeJdEYFgON6OYfDnFLlM8BV4ovE7X4DYdk FvM6iBalbATiXtM7xsGQM0ZINxqSFCwHnbUBQgoHfalmLS4owG NEiwzAhk2kcyxFSNxpAGv9KuyS912WwkqohdDhHFxsSuIjIDEC 9jaxoZ25lkXMsZpDlLwA2UEKXUKpUE+JibCw3G3N9iOYL/+I4b2wv8A146gcktKGDNO2xiyOPMRh4i7rEShB0DvGCncC+16W OwmeYbGYzLIWjHe4bCSghkABkPcgFCebKjf6qnzmHX2Rwq/vLhR9ZkHX3pU7NdkIZM1iw+KdgjI7xMr925kQqRuLeIXJFvXyq FKNxcvQ3faV2idYWw2NwrmZ5icLiFVO5AWTXF4i2oMFA1C25Bt cVJ2AEcua4h9APdYcFjYbtJIT8NrA2SifbJJEyLHLjypKmUQMx BZgH/uxJ/3nw+t6p/ZZECczmkPh/CiJWxFo4mkYgrtf8b8hUIn8Whf+23C97Jl0uHVvxo5AO72uB3T gMdhazHnyoh2CH3TI8bjkjUYkGY6mW5/BuiqfICx2vyTVztykRynLZ8MGeGKSHRr+Mxyo0IuT18anfyqPs jhzicjzHBxFWnEmITRqGxlJdbkAAjxWvYC4PlUryV/Uk7W4PCYzMcpYGKQyO6zqjKdYEYmXvAp3AZOvmaa5WXFYjH4Ka NGw8UMBVdI/wBsJw3/AE1tbjeknO8pwGWZnlAjSOCQu5lYHgd33Y1eQLPz6Gnn7qcPi8 wxcxVIHggAYkf7ETl7+X+ItQETOzvZoY3soIVQGRo2Kbb61csu/PIFMOZ4SA5/hO8VL/dZTGCBbV3i77/tAXt86Edhc5+65Hl0h2Vpkjb2ldoxf0BYH5VJ25yLD4vPMFFiW ZR93kaMq5Ru8WRSulhvfk7eVQgG+1ztGUwc2GzDCOZHd/u06Knc2D6ovGW1K4W2oW3seRXQ3DA4JEhR45FIlJQHSBGCpvwP Ftv50t9so5EyHHJjypKmRYWYgllDf3ck9ZLW+Yqv9q3aHE4TBY E4aZoTI2l2UKSQItVvEDbirSvYtK9ixlGWRRYDN0jjVVSbE6RY eG8atYeQuTt0ovkKMMvy/uoUfUsSy3UbIUOpvqB9aU/s1ctkGPYlmLPiSSxuzEoCST1JO5pkweJdMvynQxGp8OrW6q0bX B8x/KqexTF/IMlg/wDVOKaAJoTDguq2KiRyA2w2U7Db1qj9reWxYw5PKF/CmxAha211maPqPRG+tOWRZaqZ1mUioFBhw1yBa5bvix25NlW/yoJ2gTDHJcBPAX+7YXEYWVC19QRJQhLeys3PlUIMuNzWKDGpg5 O4jwzYYuEfSoJEgSwvta3Skrshl8ONweZZauhlgxLCMrY/hSyF00t1tpcbHoKbO0PY2HG4+ObExJLhkwxAYt4QxkDX2P7vWu d/YrPH/bePGHAXDsH0AG66VkshB8rb/OoQB/bzmqyZmsKhQsEYU2tsz+I3t6Bayk/tlOXzPGl/EfvEwuegWRlH0AA+VZTI8FksuTYg8YbEA+YimB/Jav5J2PnxEyK0E2295EkUe13FhesrKY2ak97GtchXvdEcGIiXQ DKEMyK7M1rWUgEgA387iiWD7OLIDEmFXu4zqXXG6lmYFdyBYG2 kXBNrVlZQ8Iu1XBHF2WlSSKVcK4MYYNEnhRpCSqyamNlKpsWFy RUuV9hFxKiR8J92IuI4w7lu8DXDSLYCwK/CNjc71lZQIidKjzNeyCBlEeHju2smRFkKqQ4JOgiwa7mw6ab71 Jh+ysQd0lwwaN7LfQxPgv8AtG9ubg25rKyiiSL+PAJzXs3FI6a osSQpdR3nfSKQAm4aQnuxcmwt4rA9KFzdiGSUBMNK8TA7XkSx9 So443rKyhmlQG1cG+X9jWiSR3Sf8JfCRE5VpVsyhFtdhvyOLbn alXD5ZjFYyCHFLIQfEkcync3O6qOaysoULb3NJMixLEs+HxLM3 JaKUk+5K3NSvlmLZFRocWyL8KMk5QW2FlIsK8rKYQ1bIsQRb7t iLeXdTW+mm1atkWJPxYbEN7xTE/UrWVlXYVk+IyzFy272HFyEbL3iTuBfkDUDbj8q3lyacAWw+IY+ ZimPpwRzWVlEnRalSB7ZHi9wMPiQD5RS/O4A3vXi5DjP9xiQBx+HNtby22rKyk3uZyRclxYJ/AxW/Xu5v4DetlyLE2t92xNvLuprfS1qyso0w4slGWYzu+77nF91/u9E+jm/w2tzVY9nsUDdcNiRtbaKUH/+aysqNkZ4ez2JPOGnv59zL8/2a9rKyqso/9k=

[FaninAma]

The imaginary tapes can be released, right along with etch-a-sketch's tax returns.

We'll see how this plays out. That's what I love about the in-the-tank partisans....they never will consider their candidae would do something wrong. And before you point the finger at me I want it on the record that I have been very critical of Bush's economic and foreign policies while he was in office and why I am now consider myself an independent.

Partisans who never, ever critically look at the actions of the politicians they support are the reason we find our country facing an economic calamity as well as a deteriorating situation in the Middle East.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

The Murdering Lying Socialist has time to release a photo of him in the situation room for Sandy, but can't be pinned down or confirmed to be there for the Benghazi attacks?

Go figure...

[sappstuf]

http://www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2012/10/528_498041040220810_1756584263_n.jpg

[soonercruiser]

Strangely enough, the U.S. doesn't conduct its covert ops by holding press conferences. If he's in Turkish custody, we have the benefit of plausible deniability as to interrogation tactics. But yeah, I'm sure that our intelligence community, as you suggest is just totally ignoring this.


****storm? This is just a pile of **** being stirred up and reshaped into something it's not by The Blaze and other phony news sources. Even Condoleeza Rice has gone on the record and actively downplayed the hysterical right's viewpoint of this.

So! You do watch some FOX.
Of course, Condi did admit that she is out of the inside info loop at this time, in that same interview.
So, her opinion isn't worth a whole lot more than mine.

Speaking about a pile of s*** being stirred up....the war against women, Chinese stocks, killed a woman dying of cancer, throws granny over the cliff. Obama and the Left are the experts at diversion tactics....away from Obamski's record.

[soonercruiser]

data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBhQSEBQUEhMWFRQWGBkYGBgYGBcaFxgcFhgYFRcdGB gXHSYfGBwkHBUXHy8gIycpLCwsFR4xNTAqNSYrLCkBCQoKDgwO Gg8PGiwkHB8sKSwsKSkpKSwpLCkpKSksKSksKSksLCwpKSwpLC wsKSksKSwsLCksLCwsLCkpLCwsKf/AABEIAMgAyAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAACAgMBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAFBgMEAAIHAQj/xABEEAACAQIFAQYDBQUFBwQDAAABAgMAEQQFEiExQQYTIlFhcT KBkQcUI6GxQlLB0fAVJDNikkNTcoKz4fEWosLiJnSy/8QAGQEAAgMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgMAAQQF/8QAJxEAAgIBAwQCAgMBAAAAAAAAAAECEQMSITEEE0FRIpEyYRR CcQX/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/AE9PMVJi1Hd1HPEDbepWCgHrQjCpgRuoPU0SDlW9uKHYc+NaJy RahcfEKTkhqX7H4cmh78MM4PL5ZMJJilxPdquKjg0d2pAWR4UZ yxN7gSsf+WisvZzEDA4rExY3vDA06qohS0ncsV5Dcm3SqGXSKe z+MDW3xiXU23GqC+3Uc0xfZ3mMcWBwkd1CyY3Ex6drAf3hwLdB +GPyp0XsjPLl0K/2g5DJlzRk4gz97HiH3jVNJhEdraSb37w/Sri/ZlKHib742l8M04buU2ZQpKc8Wcb87VV+1jNVnw2BlVgwkhxzbE HZzCRx6V0jB56hibDkr4cDHIpuLnUjo4+WlP8AVRA2xFyHsfLi YMM747u8RioWmijWFTEFQJfWSdRP4qcEc8bVBkGTLiMA+LfMmi EO2IUYdSInABdQSbta43F6a+xUqvh8qxSunc4fBzRzNqH4bMMP YN5f4T/SkfsriFPZ3ODcDXLIygmxIaONgbexotUvZRmQ4Z8bFOZ53w0GE iSSTu47ySmTvLMVbiwjJ02PNT4HsU02YTYVcerRRQibv40RiQz WCsAxW4sbkc7bCrHYt5/vuMkw8oWZYYimHbTpxQvLcMWIKkGwuONfWmKbLcJBiM4dGTDxN hYhIYgpKO3fmUqg2LW0G3maTGKkraHSnKDaTEybsbOJ8xgXEs0 mEjjkiHdr+OHU31b+GzADbzqxiuxjK+YomOZjgYY5D+EnieRZW KnfYARr6+KmyeUJ2nhkVwUnwZDbix0Hb570r9l8wMn/AKmaRwSxIBJG4U4lQB52AAqduHorvZPbLg+z6cFD98bQ+FbEau 5X4k0kp8XFnHrzXmUdhZZocOXx2jE4iEzRxiBTCFTu7q5J1E3l XcEc8G27xhs9QxPhyV8OBjkU3FzrR1cfLSn+qhmU4LD42DLHmi w82HGGZWMmklJLQ6VUE8nS9xb9kVO3D0TvZPbETstlz5gSUmOH 0YYTnSoa7FiLeK1htRfCrbKxmH9qsIwtj/dl/wAT4dPNz4/DeqX2OTAGXUQP7gAL7ftt51Bk7qeySKSLnFJ4bi9vvS9KXHFDT ug8k5SlV+hlw2GnJxDPmQGHgEQLxwxl9cqqx1XJVUUMu/8AmPFt6eJzGYd5AJ45XXEYeFJ0UaWXEsBcqCRqXxXF+gO16g+z jCyRzYs4WRQVMQOEsoSZGG77kFWF3Fxf4RcHariYGBM5WLD6Fg GLSVgpGhXXDTd4B0G7RG3Q0p4McoxaiuUKlcW0bZ7lk2DngR8S cRHOJluY1TQ8QQqLqd7hn/0Uu6vEfemvtfNC+FhljmMndZhICSACDI8sLKAOVDOAG6gA+tKb/EfemqCjP4lx3Jg1YTXgFYacQwtWVqayrBFtHXYV5iraTbmq0Rs wualxcgHFDYRtl62aMHy/lR2TD6TcUGy/fERj0P8ACm7EYbSfSoiC5j8kRm71UUvydt9uvvVfDYeEuS8KMT zqUE0xmCxutU8Vlyub/C3mKCUG3aY7HkS2krQMnwUKkmONVuN7C1DssyhJMQkceG752BI jRQSQLXJLWAA8yRRGfVGbONQ8xTR9kBX7/iyOfuot5jxm9qGLnqSkHkUIwbiwRjcpjWdYpsudcS9u7jMaM0g 81ZSUIFt7nbrUuZ5dpliimy6RcVKW7pWSMs4QXOhwxXwjexItt TP2BxmJkxGUfeYVRFwU/cuJC7SgjDXLAjwm2k2ufiPlRdt/7FJ3P3qXfrvDiOvyrTN6lTMcHpdo5hmOELJrlwUpQSmEFkUnvd WgxgKxYtqFthaosx7KPh+77/LXj7xgkfhjbU7GyrdGOkknbVausducQY8NBNhI++dsdFIsdwNb XKst+FJsd+h3oZ2oR5RDPBKyRff8L96wsoUvHKZYbWYE6SLoSL kENcHzT2kO78uaX0c8xvZV4AvfZdJGHdUW6IQzsdKrdWIUkmwv Yb1NH2Smd2jGWSs8QXUtorpquV/btvY8eVdE7ddoYY8QMIGkeeXF4Fyug93Gomjtd+N+7O3NzRHM3 QPnJleSOMRQlni/xFASS5T/ADDkVXZj+/svvy9L6OSQZAHmaBMvdp1Gp4u7VXUbbnUQLb9Ca9jyVZJ2gXAM +KX44tCa0FgbudWkCzCxvveupypOM1zSWKMNKmDgWFVO7ljMy3 JtpJKEfSvJsKEzLOGGxfAxPfrxOv8A8R9KnZXt/ZP5EvS+jmeLyKQu0cmXy64U1spWM6I/3gdVmGx+G/FaJlqpIjSYUws6d5Gzql2XYahpJtyObc034DPcT/aOVpjMOkST4aSBSkhcurJG13Fha2kefxGhva2bXmc4AsmHWPDI P+BA7H561/00nLjjCDav7HYc0pzSaX0XOz/Z6DEF2nhSUKoA1qDYkk7fIUxy9msMYhEcPEY1NwmgaQT1A8617 NYbRh0/zeL68fkKKneuDPLK9mLzO5tihjezOGibWmHiVl4IUAigPU+9O2 dr4TSSp3PvXW6GTkrbFky14TWCvbV0iiMisrdq8qyhIVSzVNLE LVPDYCq5bxfOlkLeWrbFx+x/UV0Bhe1c/wAt3xiegp71eIUa4KZtJgTe4qtLhT1FG4ZK2ZA1WBqEvEReI1H hcVJg5FxEEixylSgUrrV0JFy4uNttvnRjMlRNTMLgcji/kPnSpisWXYsbEnk9PLYcD09qz5cml7GvFBSW5exXbLGNiIcQJY 42w4ZIkSO0Sq9tYKarm+leo+EV5j+3WNknw8xeJThizRIsREd3 UqxZdXiNibbi1zQCWbzv/OozY7lreg5pPdn7GPHj9BXEdrsW8CwGZAqz/eVYR+NZDIZhYliLBm2FuBar+b/aFjZ1QM8CBZY5joit3jxMrKZPFuLquw38PNL90FttR/d4HzNQywxk+MgHawBG1GskvYPaj4QXzDtBPiMT95kePvtULAqh CAwNrS66jffner+N7Z4yZcUryQgYtAktoTwqlRp8exsx86C/2KjgEBgPNf51rJlJX4ZTt6/1ep3H7C7S8oY8b2yxs33nVLCpxMaxSMsLBtKBwuk95sR3jfWrk Pa/GtOJmnh1d13JHcEo6Xv4x3lyd+b9TSgYJVF7qw+n517FmI2v4f I9D8xtVdyYSxY/Q6Yw4mfERYvv4nmgt3IWIrHGBcEd1qub35v0G1Q4fDyS4l2lYN LO+pyq6QCVVNlJJFgg60CwuNtR3A55ZgWFyOCed/WkZZTkmrHRxRhvFbnRoALAAbAWHy2qagGBzfWLqb/wq4My23rjyxtMwSi09yHOEuCfSkheT7064/E6kY+lJCHc+9dfoFsCywtbGsWsNdNAmlqytgtZVkE5gwHFa4OM PIt/P9KzEztqq1lUZD7jm9LohmUJ/ftum36V0AQ+MUgZDvjb+p/WujaSGvRx4BbJxFWCOt4739a8bGmOTbQFXkkBmJ62v8IHmByaq U1EGMHJ7A3MOzsswGn4SSxItwBYeJth1896X8+yxIUAYoN7/Hqf/hJ6n2sKbjmlydbk6l1C9iRbgXPPtSxmSzTvpQRyRg9FjGrz1HT qX2uayOab3N0VJKhMnwrTPpQeHz671cj7OkHT1o3NHHEbIdA50 8lehFx8XuatZe9ze1qpsbCNs0yzIwCA1ifO1Go8sQ7WFvKwrRD uD5UTw5pTNkaRmFyCH935ira9moT+yPmKkw7miMB87GhCdAifs lGwtp+a8+ntSzmvYgi5PiUjg3297frXQkYeRqHFSAqb3/Oi4F6VLk4fistaBSw+EbMt729j0+dSYXFXF+enqKcO0uV+IyLv cb2/UjqKR58MVa8fz3Fqv8hcloYxZfmRQhgaesudZ4gy7Hhh5GuX4O U7U/fZ+pLzAcaFJ97kD+P0rJmXxsVmScdRNm0LIh3uKV4DT5n8X4Te 1c+iNaeifxZhuwkor0moUBrfuzXSKNhJWVporyrKF+fDDY8V7H JY3vXslQMKeoIFtpkuWERziQm48vc04p2qiJHNJNEsvjjJW99d/h2UN/zbkfT6VTioolWOuEzpC1tw3IHWtc6lCXPeKxtc+G2kn/Kb3oThcwCCyCNLk8qfFfyYm9/8xNeiISL4xZj5G9hwdz865+V7mnFGgJjcRIHuCeOvW4oQc7IfY b9d7Vex0gudr7n19uKHRwjm3P1/Ok0jSlfBFFK8kl+Lm5pywEAVR+dLWCAD8b/1wKZsPutWxmNeyx97Uc39upr3+2bXNiB7fyqpisMVW63v7Xt/Kq2FWUqzGQIoBYeHvC1ugAZbX897VcY6tkHJ0GML2uUNY2NNGC zaN1uODauaiIyaCVFzYAqCDqIJ0EEbnw8g2NF8gmOoLxQTWkKD sfPvSb77VWx2IUD4qWc8x7KTGptxc+9B4Ipb/GvzN/yvVJWi29PAx4t7+oPFIOJhtK6ggWb0vvzTG+LaMayVKruemw3N H+yWUiSHW4jGslt0Gpi29yTx7dKpICTtbiZHhNt7G+xOkfLe9d F7HYFYoSB8TG7noDawUHyFz73o1gsoiivxt7W+h/jViPCJvoAQeltN/wDhG1BmwucdjFlbapATtEv4Te1c+jjrpec4V2jYKurb9nn6fyr n/ckbMLEcg7H5g03o4ShGpGeqNAK2tUjAVAz2roENrVlVzLWVZVA pxuaiCb1sz1LgpAJF1cXrTDgGWwUh7IytGHsLHp1qn3HdvZ1vY 7rx8r10WPMFTQSR3ajeudZ3mIlnd1+Enao1YuMmHMHLC+66mdv hjCE3Pqb8CrGb4UxRsuvUSAHawNiem3HPAqj2azDdEjLRt1YcO P8AMbXWxO3N79Kbc4iSTDk/ENOlh1SxsT73uDWGeNs0LJTo5y+HBICsBsbbdB89jVI4cm9gTY n/ALb1Yx6F1OrhCLEjpY2HvY3PuKF4XOzCTrQsp502BB+ZsenlWe UbNcJJPcIYdNxej+GlHA6UuYcFwjr4Vbex5Hl70Tw81jehY+Iz QgNt51G+TODdSp+qn8rg1DgsWKsYjOtINt7c77D3padcGhpUbP K0e7fEfUk+9UMiUNKTUX39p0JGwHAtzarfZqI95c1HuCqsmzaM G5K3sdze1txzbpQbH4SKViwsL2uiqtjY3FiOPlbnrTRBKA5v16 +dWlwsfKgX9h/KijNxVFSxqT3EPH5D4IkLE9492B/dQAket9qc0zAQKq/X5AH9P0odj3U4lQT4lTUB7n/6il3t7mTIY1UWut7nh1JsAB1sTz0vbrUjbI0kjqeHzaOUbH4hv 05AO9FIwrC21v4V8+ZH2mljOltxfb09PUU+ZP2yNwG/WjuhDinwdUjnHBAqDM8mhxK/iLc9CNmHsaWsJ2hDdRRLA5vr+H0+d6ZGYiWDyhQ7Qdl3w299cf 71rEejD+NL7iutY/MIu6JcjysevpYVw7NMzkXESKgsinw3FxY9Ljm38a0YrnsKWNvY IVlQZfi+9Um1jf8A8V5RSi4uhck4ugezVCxFSyYpuhNepKx9vO w/lXSXTbcml9Jfk8fEMRYsSPK9eCvHxC2/ZHt/EVX+/LfYH1JNh+hJoHiaZnl0006QYyrNWgfUo5IuT6Aj6b0yNnYddLL 4mA1C+wPT3NgL/KkL+0F6lfz/AFO1GIMeLBgSp/eB36XAI4HnWfJiYUcMlyXM5kGkAC/Pw789STzSpj/CONrEmiubyhms3wk3tz0/KhUeGMngQc3/AJVz5ppjf9CmB2SMf5QKv4aMXe/AvVTMcMYn0HlbfpsR6fyNS4bEjSQaSzVFoKrg2CqL2uL3/hQzMsVsFUiwvceophwMwZFVhccH2NAcf2aKykJK22+lxqDD0b4 h+dDGhlNgdMQyNdSabMi7SDTa1z12J/OhuDyU/tRxvYXILWN/IA7GiGLvABriZL22Fnv14XepRStbBPF4sumw023FTYPMfCNqD4 fMVZtJDA+RVlP0YCr5so4Av9KrSGnSFrtNmBXHQkc6CD82uP0N GJsujx8EetindtclQC4uCCAG2tx9KBZrEGEsp+JmjC/5URtre5vf3Aq5lAdGjkWRFWQhGDX5JsLAc1c3T2FRdp2GT9kyA AxYxh1u8Ste/qjrtVSTsLMuwmib5On5b/rTur92gTnTt9P+9VmnrAupnZh7klwIGc4GfCxKxkV1LBSFDXAI JvqPtbjrU2X/AGgrCpBJY+QXffnmwHveiXbdQcFL5izf6TqrmLy3segNjXZ6RR ywuQ6OR1uMGb9u8RObj8O9976m3/zWAHyAoJFijquzE+pJJ396rSH8qyPj8q6mNKPBUZOxoyTEgOVO wYfn0rKEYWbcH6/oa9p8unU9xssSk7JMTKb7H5VSjx++/wDK/T5HbmrUkFz8Y+g2/wDd61XmyxiNrE+lXL9BSvwWwFffz5F7E7dL7X9K87kEeY9Rv86 oYaORDxceflbj3oiJTbcG4/q3l8/SpGfhkjK+SF4P6/leqzMwPJI/rn1q0+LHRT87/oKikkB6EG3QXH15q5xTJJJkcmY6QLe5Pt710T7P8qBiM721M9i BvpVB4QfUsxbb+FI+S5W0s8ZW1lZSxYHSNxYkDm27W9PWuu4IC HBq+7GWdwgbYsoLWY248Crtxdq500lIxZbA/bXLQ6CRfijHi9VJ/wDjz8zSTqNdLeYMt/Pn5+fpXP8AOcr7l7D4D8Pp6fKsmaHlDMMnwy9kWMOqx6UXzWIs VI5HB9DyKVcum0uDTng8YGQX6Vjo3RZRhxLDawNXsMdRuVAvz6/Kp/uQvxt6Vpi50hQsdrW9T5AepJ2AFWlYxypFbMnAN+D5c0u5vmTM Ci8HZj6eQqj2uzaRMSIXGhrDWAbsmvcKbcNYgketQpJfTY9K0L FStmDJmvgLRYV5IQkYBsV2va4F7b+m1X8s7EzloxIUCAhmIa7C xvYC25Pnetez7WtTnhcRXOzZHFtIV3ZJUiziEuSfOqpWrUkgtV WSTasCEgTtHBeB1/eBH1FceSTbj0YeR/8ANdk7Qyfh1yTtDgjHNccP4l9/2h9d/nXd6B1ALVRGj+fStTKL7Gq6S/WpNretdiLsNNPgv4SXp/W/Fe1Sjk3/AK/KsrUsmxqhlpF15iLeI/0PWtTiD1sR7CpscRqtsaqWB3pMWDqaLAxZ/wAp+VaSYom/T2HyFRKvlXu9+atE1M94qKTFb7n3reRrA1f7P5OZGV3IC6rWPL W3JA8h5+dLnKgW72Gjs7gXwsKOV1SYgjSoJBVSLLYD5ksT6AU4 3toiJJMKWPleWzN87KPrSfnOexB0CCQnhdPAGoKGO23F6KZJOx klAILG27MfFYW3PpasWWW1CmrYcngPK9Of/FDMZgO9BBQkWuSASV9duKzFZvNATrw4dF5aJrkDzKEA/QmpsN2mheMzQNdkUkaCVbYeYpClRTXoSDhyrMpsSpsf526e3Sr GExzJwdv68qccfjVxixSsg120mUKHEikBgXUWOpb2B3BueL0z9 jIMGQbL+MDxKEU+hRVJUj6nzpSxuUthzzKELfIpZJleOxQHdxF E6vISi/La7fIU55L2PTDkPK/fSrc95psse2/dJc2a1/ESTzxTHPMxNuP1t/ClDtR2qhMM8ETl5CpS0ZUm4t4Rfz1C54AvvWyGKMOTFLPkyuvB wPM8wOJxU0x2Mkjt6gFjpB8rAAfKrcWZhW0txyG8r770RXsbiD 4nCIebl7Dfc9OPStcb2TxUSPMViZEXUfHc7DfTtvTbhVWPpRjT D+R4lQLllA9SKYoM0hv/AIye2oVyzDZn3guYrL5iS30FqnixI8RAOkbXO9z6e1IfQYsj/IYowl5OwRThh4WDexB/SopnsK45NmW/gUA+fDHy4o5gu1GJCBGcNYX3FyPRiTuKzS/5L/pIrtpvYbM4mvHS3jstXERaGNjyrfunz9vMVc/tQTR6tgb2IBvY16ttqLBjeO4yESVOjnOKwDo7Iwsw5H6W8x61B HMRs1MHa5j95F+NC2+pv/ChQkvswvXRxqyox9GorK1+7j9lreh/gaym7h7l2STe53JrCRXspHS/zrQtRpGmja9ZesvXnUVRRrJsvl/XWn7s/l6JGugFtSadSruSCSCBzY349qXeyuTCeVlsGOk2QkC9+u/l5+tOnZeRoY5gIy7Q6S6PsQLHUV3OpRba1ibjbilTe5KFTM8Qy 3aSNgLWY2JAIZgVO/I9qacqy7XCjo/xDVcetLObYhWml1HYOQPFceEDVbVyAzEHyINF+ymafhLEqFjqa xFgiqDa5PP0FYsgsOBmU/iaWPF9wbfI1RzDuU8cUKpKTfWgOokb725B2vRLMMqJjZEciUox 1DYL0G3Uk0F/s9ZWTuQ0czC85DHSthbe1gW2NqRZCjlnaXq5MXdnxar6S242PH 7RPzFFsR2gXQS2ll9g1/ID1O31q3jpxHHsNlKrvY3Hwgtfk7g0t5zDHBNFKSscTaVt+0WW 5L7DbewPv6VaITLHJLI7R92VY38TADi1rEE7W49KIQZXIBaScK P3U2H/ALbX+detgtchkiIDMPxE6ORw626+fntUxy+QDVYEenIqWXRSzP KMP3TlR4wCbm9yR53qvJ4csmBJ0FOPIE8D86zMZ7/hjk80L7WY4xpFAh48b9PRB+p+QpmKOqRTFlkDsEQ2TcnjYdenN Szy8Kuyjp6Vosu3w2Py9ulvqKiLo1xcqeD1H6XHzrox+K3KvSj 3C7tqPuPlVlAWBtaxO99hwOv8KrRxWF7gi3PT67/nUb423h9T/KjjJIKM0uRhyWSyuLg/Cbg+/wDCi8c17UmPj9HFvD1r3CZ7OHvuw6i2x+YFZ8uNOVpi8jTewS7 YAFojwdL/AKrt+d6ApCf3hTt3YxWGZQCNQ4I3VuR+YG9IUlwSNwRsR6jY1U LXIrgIR4S/X8tv1rKHo3Xesp+tDVJegqa8JrSWYDkgXrRZ16EH50VodaJqxU uQBz6C5+nWq4xSk/EBRzszmUUUjSkxllAVAzhbM506jcG4Ubm3FDaInH2M2QxqsWqK JW8OmQuCrEjcqOu1uBUSZqwxrMyELMVXwg6ZG1bxKx2LXCjY/pRaDtCuhY0nhmfqyuCLn4nKc8XJ361Vxee4OXBNEsiRyDZVeQN qLcNqG6KSxN9rAbikSbZU5R8M9z/ttD92+7AlniQIYpACS5GwUgHfoSPOtexMsMUaQsx763DAC9uQh 4Oni3NUM2zHAzQQS95HFiIrLojI07bNt+7sCD6mhk06hTpxEEk Y3KsQFJvtcEnSfUb0mcRfHkfccWOoXIBezW50geAegJJ4qbBoq RWUWHpSXk3bbfu7hiOFkZiCLcLNYkja/iB96OYjtlh1UFzoDcEEOD7FN/mQKz6WmFext2gS2EmPkhYf8u4qHF5WuKwwVrAqTY/ukjY/qPW9R4rNYsTDMsUiP+G9wDvweleZRn0MUZE0qpqCkaiN7enzqJ FWqAOT5m8DdxMCpjNgeq+XuvkafMDOrrqDEN1A3+dqD5ng8LjY y8cyFo9u8Ujwg9H8xS7lWO7uVYlngmQkjZ9JH/Df9L1NLspSQ0ZrBENUs9lUbixs59Bbi9IOYzGaRpXHic3sDsOg H0puzPtPBBE6ao5JZAUKEhlVeofp626n2pEbGoR8Q253ro9LFR TbGwaS3ZJr6dKHYiO52HFWRiFPB/h+tV3nXfxDk9fpWnI4yRWRxkiHDTMrW8/z/nUmPAuPpb8x/KtsLIhcaiAB7da1x+JDPsw6km/nYfoKxtbGWS+J5G9gAxJPFuSPYf8Aer6sbeMFF6F30k/8qi9VMNZVDBgo8+redh6e9YcVGhut2bz5J92Ow+Qo06KuggoQb 2b3DMv5s1/yqnmbhzr3PQm9729bb1XOLvvcD1ILHz5NeTYpWHNr7W9uLmj1x C1JmujqDesqGOa1eUNoGzsX2CRhsfidQB/AXkA/7SmX7TY0fJsS2OjiimE0q4fYBmCSsISu97tGAT7nYcUu/YCP7/if/wBdf+pTp2xwbx5HmAxbBiWxDR6m1WV5WaAAnghSot0takz/ACYM/wAmWsfh173JvCu7G+w3/urULy/Pu77RYjBCGMpMFkLEeJdEYFgON6OYfDnFLlM8BV4ovE7X4DYdk FvM6iBalbATiXtM7xsGQM0ZINxqSFCwHnbUBQgoHfalmLS4owG NEiwzAhk2kcyxFSNxpAGv9KuyS912WwkqohdDhHFxsSuIjIDEC 9jaxoZ25lkXMsZpDlLwA2UEKXUKpUE+JibCw3G3N9iOYL/+I4b2wv8A146gcktKGDNO2xiyOPMRh4i7rEShB0DvGCncC+16W OwmeYbGYzLIWjHe4bCSghkABkPcgFCebKjf6qnzmHX2Rwq/vLhR9ZkHX3pU7NdkIZM1iw+KdgjI7xMr925kQqRuLeIXJFvXyq FKNxcvQ3faV2idYWw2NwrmZ5icLiFVO5AWTXF4i2oMFA1C25Bt cVJ2AEcua4h9APdYcFjYbtJIT8NrA2SifbJJEyLHLjypKmUQMx BZgH/uxJ/3nw+t6p/ZZECczmkPh/CiJWxFo4mkYgrtf8b8hUIn8Whf+23C97Jl0uHVvxo5AO72uB3T gMdhazHnyoh2CH3TI8bjkjUYkGY6mW5/BuiqfICx2vyTVztykRynLZ8MGeGKSHRr+Mxyo0IuT18anfyqPs jhzicjzHBxFWnEmITRqGxlJdbkAAjxWvYC4PlUryV/Uk7W4PCYzMcpYGKQyO6zqjKdYEYmXvAp3AZOvmaa5WXFYjH4Ka NGw8UMBVdI/wBsJw3/AE1tbjeknO8pwGWZnlAjSOCQu5lYHgd33Y1eQLPz6Gnn7qcPi8 wxcxVIHggAYkf7ETl7+X+ItQETOzvZoY3soIVQGRo2Kbb61csu/PIFMOZ4SA5/hO8VL/dZTGCBbV3i77/tAXt86Edhc5+65Hl0h2Vpkjb2ldoxf0BYH5VJ25yLD4vPMFFiW ZR93kaMq5Ru8WRSulhvfk7eVQgG+1ztGUwc2GzDCOZHd/u06Knc2D6ovGW1K4W2oW3seRXQ3DA4JEhR45FIlJQHSBGCpvwP Ftv50t9so5EyHHJjypKmRYWYgllDf3ck9ZLW+Yqv9q3aHE4TBY E4aZoTI2l2UKSQItVvEDbirSvYtK9ixlGWRRYDN0jjVVSbE6RY eG8atYeQuTt0ovkKMMvy/uoUfUsSy3UbIUOpvqB9aU/s1ctkGPYlmLPiSSxuzEoCST1JO5pkweJdMvynQxGp8OrW6q0bX B8x/KqexTF/IMlg/wDVOKaAJoTDguq2KiRyA2w2U7Db1qj9reWxYw5PKF/CmxAha211maPqPRG+tOWRZaqZ1mUioFBhw1yBa5bvix25NlW/yoJ2gTDHJcBPAX+7YXEYWVC19QRJQhLeys3PlUIMuNzWKDGpg5 O4jwzYYuEfSoJEgSwvta3Skrshl8ONweZZauhlgxLCMrY/hSyF00t1tpcbHoKbO0PY2HG4+ObExJLhkwxAYt4QxkDX2P7vWu d/YrPH/bePGHAXDsH0AG66VkshB8rb/OoQB/bzmqyZmsKhQsEYU2tsz+I3t6Bayk/tlOXzPGl/EfvEwuegWRlH0AA+VZTI8FksuTYg8YbEA+YimB/Jav5J2PnxEyK0E2295EkUe13FhesrKY2ak97GtchXvdEcGIiXQ DKEMyK7M1rWUgEgA387iiWD7OLIDEmFXu4zqXXG6lmYFdyBYG2 kXBNrVlZQ8Iu1XBHF2WlSSKVcK4MYYNEnhRpCSqyamNlKpsWFy RUuV9hFxKiR8J92IuI4w7lu8DXDSLYCwK/CNjc71lZQIidKjzNeyCBlEeHju2smRFkKqQ4JOgiwa7mw6ab71 Jh+ysQd0lwwaN7LfQxPgv8AtG9ubg25rKyiiSL+PAJzXs3FI6a osSQpdR3nfSKQAm4aQnuxcmwt4rA9KFzdiGSUBMNK8TA7XkSx9 So443rKyhmlQG1cG+X9jWiSR3Sf8JfCRE5VpVsyhFtdhvyOLbn alXD5ZjFYyCHFLIQfEkcync3O6qOaysoULb3NJMixLEs+HxLM3 JaKUk+5K3NSvlmLZFRocWyL8KMk5QW2FlIsK8rKYQ1bIsQRb7t iLeXdTW+mm1atkWJPxYbEN7xTE/UrWVlXYVk+IyzFy272HFyEbL3iTuBfkDUDbj8q3lyacAWw+IY+ ZimPpwRzWVlEnRalSB7ZHi9wMPiQD5RS/O4A3vXi5DjP9xiQBx+HNtby22rKyk3uZyRclxYJ/AxW/Xu5v4DetlyLE2t92xNvLuprfS1qyso0w4slGWYzu+77nF91/u9E+jm/w2tzVY9nsUDdcNiRtbaKUH/+aysqNkZ4ez2JPOGnv59zL8/2a9rKyqso/9k=

Great post, Prophet!
:mushroom:

[cleller]

Great post, Prophet!
:mushroom:

Finally, the White House response comes out.

[SoonerProphet]

Great post, Prophet!
:mushroom:

Sorry, couldn't get my snarky it's a conspiracy jpeg to fly at work, snarkiness has passed.

[sappstuf]

http://www.terrellaftermath.com/Cartoon%20Archive/October%202012%20Archive/PattonStandDown2WebCR-10_29_12.jpg

[Midtowner]

So! You do watch some FOX.
Of course, Condi did admit that she is out of the inside info loop at this time, in that same interview.
So, her opinion isn't worth a whole lot more than mine.

And the source The Blaze relied on to get this whole ****stain of a commentary line started was someone even further out of the loop than Rice.


Speaking about a pile of s*** being stirred up....the war against women, Chinese stocks, killed a woman dying of cancer, throws granny over the cliff. Obama and the Left are the experts at diversion tactics....away from Obamski's record.

War against women? I personally hate calling everything a "war." War is a horrible thing where people kill other people and break things, not always for a good reason. But do Republicans generally favor taking women's right to control their own bodies away? Yes they do and they're unapologetic about it, now in many cases, even in the case of rape. As far as Romney's investments, it's really a non-issue. I agree. But how Romney's company treated workers in the companies it acquired? Fair game. If Romney is going to tell us what a great guy he is because he was a venture capitalist, which is basically a form of creative destruction, the downside and damage to people's lives while he racked up huge profits is absolutely fair to look at.

It's also fair game to consider that Romney flipped on almost every single position he's ever taken at least once, usually more than once. It's definitely fair to consider the "47%" line he thought would never see the light of day. I'm sure he's told that line to countless other people who have donated tens of thousands of dollars. Out of everything he's done/said, I consider that the most telling. Catching him in that unscripted situation really proves that what he says is what he thinks you want to hear.

I prefer Obama. I know how he'll govern.

[FaninAma]

Duplicate

[FaninAma]

But do Republicans generally favor taking women's right to control their own bodies away? Yes they do and they're unapologetic about it, now in many cases, even in the case of rape.

Really? Can you point to a movement by Republicans to take away access to birth control? And please explain to me how a fetus is part of the mother's body when its DNA is completely different than hers. If a mother wants to terminate her pregnancy at a date later than 24 weeks should it be allowed? http://miscarriage.about.com/od/pregnancyafterloss/a/prematurebirth.htm
Odds of a Premature Baby's Survival by Length of Pregnancy

Length of Pregnancy
Likelihood of Survival


23 weeks
17%


24 weeks
39%


25 weeks
50%


26 weeks
80%


27 weeks
90%


28-31 weeks
90-95%


32-33 weeks
95%


34+ weeks
Almost as likely as a full-term baby



So tell me Mid, at what point is it okay to arbitrarily end the unborn child's life?

And please try to avoid dragging out the progressives' favorite strawman, rape and incest. They account for less than 1% of all pregnancies terminated in this country each year. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us/rape-and-incest-just-1-of-all-abortions.html

[C&CDean]

Really? Can you point to a movement by Republicans to take away access to birth control? And please explain to me how a fetus is part of the mother's body when its DNA is completely different than hers. If a mother wants to terminate her pregnancy at a date later than 24 weeks should it be allowed? http://miscarriage.about.com/od/pregnancyafterloss/a/prematurebirth.htm

And please try to avoid dragging out the progressives' favorite strawman, rape and incest. They account for less than 1% of all pregnancies terminated in this country each year. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us/rape-and-incest-just-1-of-all-abortions.html

Careful Steve. You're gonna blow his limited mind with facts. Liberals don't like facts.

[Soonerjeepman]

I know how he'll govern.

with his head up his ***...great. Spending $11 dollars to every $7 brought in.

On top of that...GREAT post by FIA

[sappstuf]

Great story from Jake Tapper from ABC today.. There is still incredible stuff being uncovered, some of it literally from the ruins of the consulate.


Fox News Channel’s Catherine Herridge last night reported on a newly discovered cable indicating that in August, less than a month before the attack, the diplomatic post in Benghazi convened an “emergency meeting” concerned about local Al Qaeda training camps. Said the cable: “RSO (Regional Security Officer) expressed concerns with the ability to defend Post in the event of a coordinated attack due to limited manpower, security measures, weapons capabilities, host nation support, and the overall size of the compound.”

So less than a month before the attack there was an "emergency meeting" about the Al Qaeda training camps and the RSO was saying they couldn't defend themselves from a coordinated attack, which was exactly what happened. Apparently there was no mention of the video tape...

And this:


This afternoon, journalists Harald Doornbos and Jenan Moussa in Foreign Policy Magazine reported that when they arrived at the compound in Benghazi on October 26 they found “several ash-strewn documents beneath rubble in the looted Tactical Operations Center, one of the four main buildings of the partially destroyed compound. Some of the documents — such as an email from Stevens to his political officer in Benghazi and a flight itinerary sent to Sean Smith, a U.S. diplomat slain in the attack — are clearly marked as State Department correspondence. Others are unsigned printouts of messages to local and national Libyan authorities. The two unsigned draft letters are both dated Sept. 11 and express strong fears about the security situation at the compound on what would turn out to be a tragic day. They also indicate that Stevens and his team had officially requested additional security at the Benghazi compound for his visit — and that they apparently did not feel it was being provided.”

Documents are still laying around the burned out buildings... The incompetence is mind boggling.

It is clear they felt like they weren't getting the security they needed and were being hung out to dry. Unfortunately, they were right.

[Midtowner]

Really? Can you point to a movement by Republicans to take away access to birth control?

I'd say there's a significant enough group that they actually, at one time, succeeded in Connecticut of all places, at making it illegal for even married couples to use birth control. Griswold v. Connecticut let the air out of their tires, and considering the case law out there, it's unlikely there'll ever be any significant political capital expended in this area again. If it could be outlawed though, if that was even a possibility, just as in Connecticut back in those days, folks would be trying it now.


And please explain to me how a fetus is part of the mother's body when its DNA is completely different than hers. If a mother wants to terminate her pregnancy at a date later than 24 weeks should it be allowed?

Well, if you'll read Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which I'm in full agreement with, a state could very well simply outlaw abortions past 24 weeks assuming there's an exception for the health of the mother. The trouble is that states know this and would rather have the issue than the solution. Legislators are either cynical in that regard or they're just plain ignorant.


So tell me Mid, at what point is it okay to arbitrarily end the unborn child's life?

In cases where the fetus is not yet viable outside the womb when the health of the mother is not an issue--and the word "arbitrary" assumes abortion is always arbitrary. Considering the expense and the sort of procedure a D&E is, I doubt anyone does that arbitrarily. Also, you're talking about a very small number of abortions every year in that category.

[SoonerProphet]

Take that sh!t somewhere else. This is about Benghazi Gate!!!!111!!!

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/11/01/troubling_surveillance_before_benghazi_attack

[FaninAma]

In cases where the fetus is not yet viable outside the womb when the health of the mother is not an issue--and the word "arbitrary" assumes abortion is always arbitrary. Considering the expense and the sort of procedure a D&E is, I doubt anyone does that arbitrarily. Also, you're talking about a very small number of abortions every year in that category.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

It appears the top 2 reasons women give for having abortions are in fact relatively arbitrary reasons.....financial and convenience.

I'm all for women having reproductive freedom but wanting to show some consideration for the unborn child's welfare, especially those over 24 weeks of
gestation, should in no way be construed as waging war on women.

The take home message is that the whole argument that the GOP wants to take away womens' reproductive rights is contrived and intellectually lazy.

[soonercruiser]

I'd say there's a significant enough group that they actually, at one time, succeeded in Connecticut of all places, at making it illegal for even married couples to use birth control. Griswold v. Connecticut let the air out of their tires, and considering the case law out there, it's unlikely there'll ever be any significant political capital expended in this area again. If it could be outlawed though, if that was even a possibility, just as in Connecticut back in those days, folks would be trying it now.



Well, if you'll read Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which I'm in full agreement with, a state could very well simply outlaw abortions past 24 weeks assuming there's an exception for the health of the mother. The trouble is that states know this and would rather have the issue than the solution. Legislators are either cynical in that regard or they're just plain ignorant.



In cases where the fetus is not yet viable outside the womb when the health of the mother is not an issue--and the word "arbitrary" assumes abortion is always arbitrary. Considering the expense and the sort of procedure a D&E is, I doubt anyone does that arbitrarily. Also, you're talking about a very small number of abortions every year in that category.

Hey!
32% of registered Demoncrats are unviable without the gobment!
:surprise:

[sappstuf]

More incompetence, reporting from CBS...


CBS News has learned that during the Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. Mission in Benghazi, the Obama Administration did not convene its top interagency counterterrorism resource: the Counterterrorism Security Group, (CSG).

"The CSG is the one group that's supposed to know what resources every agency has. They know of multiple options and have the ability to coordinate counterterrorism assets across all the agencies," a high-ranking government official told CBS News. "They were not allowed to do their job. They were not called upon."

The One was running the show.. He didn't the CSG.


Information shared with CBS News from top counterterrorism sources in the government and military reveal keen frustration over the U.S. response on Sept. 11, the night ambassador Chris Stevens and 3 other Americans were killed in a coordinated attack on the U.S. consulate in Libya.

Counterterrorism sources and internal emails reviewed by CBS News express frustration that key responders were ready to deploy, but were not called upon to help in the attack.

So much for the military didn't want to respond, besides the one person at the top..


Another senior counter terrorism official says a hostage rescue team was alternately asked to get ready and then stand down throughout the night, as officials seemed unable to make up their minds.

More incompetence..


"The response process was isolated at the most senior level," says an official referring to top officials in the executive branch. "My fellow counterterrorism professionals and I (were) not consulted."

The incompetence came directly from The One.


The Administration also didn't call on the only interagency, on-call, short notice team poised to respond to terrorist incidents worldwide: the Foreign Emergency Support Team (FEST). FEST's seasoned experts leave within four hours of notification and can provide "the fastest assistance possible."

Why call the experts? The One had it all under control!


Counterterrorism officials from two agencies said they concluded almost immediately that the attack was by terrorists and was not spontaneous.

Amateurs.. Don't they know Obama, the terrorism expert, went before the UN and blamed it on the video?


In an interview last week, President Obama said "the minute" he became aware of the Benghazi attack, he directed his staff to "make sure that we are securing our personnel and doing whatever we need to do."

Except convene the experts, the CSG and except activating the FEST and telling a hostage rescue team to stand up and the down up and down and never sending them..

So either Obama is telling the truth but the team he built around him is completely incompetent, he never said it, or he said it and later took it back because he didn't have the marbles to make a firm decision until it was all over.

The administration needs to go.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57544026/sources-key-task-force-not-convened-during-benghazi-consulate-attack/?pageNum=2&tag=page

[Midtowner]

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionReasons_2.htm

It appears the top 2 reasons women give for having abortions are in fact relatively arbitrary reasons.....financial and convenience.

The study you cite doesn't give "convenience" as a reason at all and further states that 89% had at least two of the reasons listed and 74% had at least 3.

As far as abortions past 24 weeks, you're talking about .08% of all abortions performed in this country. Raging about that and looking to restrict all women for .08% of abortions is intellectually lazy.

Like I said, if you wanted to make abortions illegal after 24 weeks and left an exception for the health of the mother, you could do that right now.


The take home message is that the whole argument that the GOP wants to take away womens' reproductive rights is contrived and intellectually lazy.

When you have so many GOP politicians saying they wouldn't even allow abortion in the case of rape, no, you're just citing facts.

[Midtowner]

Really? Can you point to a movement by Republicans to take away access to birth control?

And just a few minutes later, I read this from Bishop Jenky of Peoria, Illinois in a letter he required to be read from the pulpit at all of the churches in his diocese:


Since the foundation of the American Republic and the adoption of the Bill of Rights, I do not think there has ever been a time more threatening to our religious liberty than the present. Neither the president of the United States nor the current majority of the Federal Senate have been willing to even consider the Catholic community’s grave objections to those HHS mandates that would require all Catholic institutions, exempting only our church buildings, to fund abortion, sterilization, and artificial contraception.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/01/daniel-jenky-illinois-catholic-bishop-anti-obama-letter_n_2059117.html

So there ya have it. The Catholic Church is against artificial contraception. Of course, Griswold v. Connecticut says they can't actually do it (again). I'm pretty sure these guys aren't Democrats.

[pphilfran]

Mid...that does not take away "access"...there will be no less stores offering birth control because of what the Catholic leadership believes...the Catholic people can still make an individual decision and purchase any type of birth control that they choose...

The Church strongly believes against any type of birth control, always has and probably will far into the future...but the Church's belief does not affect "access" on damn bit...

I have said the same thing a million times....consumers should be offered coverage if they wish coverage and those that elect coverage should pay additional for that coverage...

[Midtowner]

Mid...that does not take away "access"...there will be no less stores offering birth control because of what the Catholic leadership believes...the Catholic people can still make an individual decision and purchase any type of birth control that they choose...

The Church strongly believes against any type of birth control, always has and probably will far into the future...but the Church's belief does not affect "access" on damn bit...

I have said the same thing a million times....consumers should be offered coverage if they wish coverage and those that elect coverage should pay additional for that coverage...

The Church's belief and other churchs' beliefs in that area did succeed in at one time passing an anti-contraception law in Connecticut (and maybe other states) in 1879. That particular law remained on the books for nearly 100 years before the SCOTUS struck it down in a decision which laid the ground work for Roe v. Wade.

[Midtowner]

Also, back on topic, after the RW media and Blaze's made up facts, the adults are now speaking about Benghazi:



Here is the timeline of events, as provided by the senior intelligence official:

– Around 9:40 p.m. (local time) the annex receives the first call that the mission is under attack.

– Fewer than 25 minutes later, a security team leaves the annex for the mission.

– Over the next 25 minutes, the team members approach the compound, attempt to secure heavy weapons and make their way onto the compound in the face of enemy fire.

– At 11:11 p.m., the requested drone surveillance arrives over the mission compound.

– By 11:30 p.m., all U.S. personnel, except for Stevens, who is missing, depart the mission. The exiting vehicles come under fire.

– Over the next roughly 90 minutes, the annex receives sporadic small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenade rounds. The security team returns fire and the attackers disperse at approximately 1 a.m.

– At about the same time, a team of additional security personnel lands at the Benghazi airport and negotiates for transport into town. Upon learning the ambassador is missing and that the situation at the annex has calmed, the team focuses on locating the ambassador and tries to obtain information on the security situation at the hospital.

– It's still predawn when the team at the airport finally manages to secure transportation and an armed escort. Having learned that Stevens is almost certainly dead and that the security situation at the hospital is uncertain, the team heads to the annex to assist with the evacuation.

– They arrive with Libyan support at the annex at 5:15 a.m., just before the mortar rounds begin to hit the annex. The two security officers are killed when they take direct mortar fire as they engage the enemy. That attack lasts only 11 minutes before dissipating.

– Less than an hour later, a heavily-armed Libyan military unit arrives to help evacuate the compound of all U.S. personnel.

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/01/intelligence-official-offers-new-timeline-for-benghazi-attack/?hpt=hp_t3

[rock on sooner]

Also, back on topic, after the RW media and Blaze's made up facts, the adults are now speaking about Benghazi:



http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/01/intelligence-official-offers-new-timeline-for-benghazi-attack/?hpt=hp_t3

I just heard that same synopsis on NPR this morning...Interesting that one
point was that air strikes were considered but too many civilian casualties
was why they didn't and three separate groups tried to assist but were too
late.

[okie52]

I just heard that same synopsis on NPR this morning...Interesting that one
point was that air strikes were considered but too many civilian casualties
was why they didn't and three separate groups tried to assist but were too
late.

It didn't sound like civilians were around the compound.

[sappstuf]

Also, back on topic, after the RW media and Blaze's made up facts, the adults are now speaking about Benghazi:



http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/01/intelligence-official-offers-new-timeline-for-benghazi-attack/?hpt=hp_t3

Please respond to my posts from CBS and ABC then...

[sappstuf]

It didn't sound like civilians were around the compound.

Civilians with mortars and machine guns...

[okie52]

Civilians with mortars and machine guns...

Our friends that Obama "liberated".

[sappstuf]

I just heard that same synopsis on NPR this morning...Interesting that one
point was that air strikes were considered but too many civilian casualtieswas why they didn't and three separate groups tried to assist but were too
late.

Considered by whom? "They" isn't much of an answer.

[sappstuf]

Our friends that Obama "liberated".

That's right.. Another foreign policy success that had Al Qaeda on the run.

[okie52]

That's right.. Another foreign policy success that had Al Qaeda on the run.

We're winning!!!!

[rock on sooner]

It didn't sound like civilians were around the compound.

According to the NPR guy, the grainy video from the drone showed
the attackers (that Sappstuf mentioned) and that a lot of civilians
were watching. From what I know and have seen in other news
reports that there is usually an audience with this type of attack.

[rock on sooner]

Considered by whom? "They" isn't much of an answer.

My understanding is that the military command out of Italy
is the "they".

[okie52]

According to the NPR guy, the grainy video from the drone showed
the attackers (that Sappstuf mentioned) and that a lot of civilians
were watching. From what I know and have seen in other news
reports that there is usually an audience with this type of attack.

Hmmm...the liberated civilians not rushing to the liberators defense?

They needed to watch the spectacle from the cheap seats...not courtside if they didn't want part of the action. I wouldn't have sacrificed our people to save any of those bastards from being collateral damage.

[rock on sooner]

I'm not trying to justify this screwup, I am merely pointing out
what is being reported. Most of you are convinced that Obama
messed this up and you might be right. But, I have enough
sense to know that after action reports usually clear things up
that the "fog of war"'s first blush states.

[okie52]

I'm not trying to justify this screwup, I am merely pointing out
what is being reported. Most of you are convinced that Obama
messed this up and you might be right. But, I have enough
sense to know that after action reports usually clear things up
that the "fog of war"'s first blush states.

Honestly, Rock On, I don't know how culpable Obama is on this deal. I'm pizzed because we went into Libya in the 1st place and didn't even know who we were helping. This interventionist mentality (by both parties) is worn out and we have many scars to prove it.

[rock on sooner]

Honestly, Rock On, I don't know how culpable Obama is on this deal. I'm pizzed because we went into Libya in the 1st place and didn't even know who we were helping. This interventionist mentality (by both parties) is worn out and we have many scars to prove it.

Okie, it is the curse of being the only superpower and we are damned if we do and
damned if we don't. The way we went into Libya is much more desireable than
what we did it Iraq. I think Afghanistan was justified because that was OBL's
base of operation. I don't think pivoting and going to Iraq was justified at all.

Pubs say we were "leading from behind" but, when you think about it, our air
intelligence and aircraft supported the Europeans and, we lost no one and got
rid of an SOB that was responsible for American deaths (Lockerbie).

[okie52]

Okie, it is the curse of being the only superpower and we are damned if we do and
damned if we don't. The way we went into Libya is much more desireable than
what we did it Iraq. I think Afghanistan was justified because that was OBL's
base of operation. I don't think pivoting and going to Iraq was justified at all.

Pubs say we were "leading from behind" but, when you think about it, our air
intelligence and aircraft supported the Europeans and, we lost no one and got
rid of an SOB that was responsible for American deaths (Lockerbie).

Afghanistan was totally justified. In hindsight my only qualm there is that we tried (and are still trying) nation building. Level it and leave.

Iraq was another intervention that hindsight shows to be a bad deal. But, of course, Desert storm was grounded in our need to protect our oil supplies and our current administration's
energy policy is making sure we remain reliant on ME oil.

Quadafi had tempered himself in later years. UK sent the Lockerbie bomber home. The US had normalized relations with Libya and opened an embassy there 5-6 years ago. We had removed Libya from the terrorist list.

The French, of all people, were the same "ally" that denied us airspace to bomb Libya in 1986 and yet we feel compelled to help their sorry azz out?

We still don't know if we helped good or bad guys in Libya. We certainly know that the "good guys", if there are any, didn't do **** to help our embassy out.

[sappstuf]

Also, back on topic, after the RW media and Blaze's made up facts, the adults are now speaking about Benghazi:



http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/01/intelligence-official-offers-new-timeline-for-benghazi-attack/?hpt=hp_t3

Is this anything like the made up facts about a video causing the attack that the Obama administration ran with for weeks?

[sappstuf]

Afghanistan was totally justified. In hindsight my only qualm there is that we tried (and are still trying) nation building. Level it and leave.

Iraq was another intervention that hindsight shows to be a bad deal. But, of course, Desert storm was grounded in our need to protect our oil supplies and our current administration's
energy policy is making sure we remain reliant on ME oil.

Quadafi had tempered himself in later years. UK sent the Lockerbie bomber home. The US had normalized relations with Libya and opened an embassy there 5-6 years ago. We had removed Libya from the terrorist list.

The French, of all people, were the same "ally" that denied us airspace to bomb Libya in 1986 and yet we feel compelled to help their sorry azz out?

We still don't know if we helped good or bad guys in Libya. We certainly know that the "good guys", if there are any, didn't do **** to help our embassy out.

The consulate had an emergency meeting that stated there were 10 terrorist camps in Benghazi alone.. This is the same Benghazi that we directly saved from Quadafi's forces because he had them surrounded. Our aircraft bombing is the only thing that kept Quadafi out of Benghazi.

Maybe he was just going after the 10 terrorist camps in the city....

[cleller]

The new report out today giving the timeline doesn't address some of the questions I'd have. It says a plane was charted to send a team of 6 CIA security operatives from Tripoli to Benghazi.

They arrive at 0100, but don't make it to the compound until 0515, as they had no transportation.

This still does not sound like much or an effort to rescue anyone, or deal with an attack. Your embassy is under siege, so you charter a plane and send six CIA officers? Weak.
http://news.yahoo.com/detailed-account-benghazi-attack-notes-cias-quick-response-020906681--abc-news-politics.html

So why is Gen. Carter Ham of Africom REALLY announcing his retirement in the midst of this boondoggle? No one would do that unless forced too, or so angry that he's making a point.
And once again, why did Obama lie about the stupid video over and over? Then you have the paperwork found in the Embassy weeks after the attack detailing their fears, and requests for more help. Lots of smoke still in the air.

[okie52]

The consulate had an emergency meeting that stated there were 10 terrorist camps in Benghazi alone.. This is the same Benghazi that we directly saved from Quadafi's forces because he had them surrounded. Our aircraft bombing is the only thing that kept Quadafi out of Benghazi.

Maybe he was just going after the 10 terrorist camps in the city....

I'm sure the current government has cleaned out these terrorist nests in a show of appreciation for our help.

[Midtowner]

More incompetence, reporting from CBS...

Sounds like some butthurt senior official who wasn't consulted. If you follow the timeline, assets were on the way, there was just not enough time to mobilize the sort of response they needed. It was definitely a poor decision by the State Department to have such lax security. Even if the CSG and FEST had been mobilized, it's not as if they could have had assets there to prevent Stevens' assassination. Further, there might've been a lot more casualties.

Avoiding civilian casualties in countries where hearts and minds are important is no small agenda item.

[okie52]

Sounds like some butthurt senior official who wasn't consulted. If you follow the timeline, assets were on the way, there was just not enough time to mobilize the sort of response they needed. It was definitely a poor decision by the State Department to have such lax security. Even if the CSG and FEST had been mobilized, it's not as if they could have had assets there to prevent Stevens' assassination. Further, there might've been a lot more casualties.

Avoiding civilian casualties in countries where hearts and minds are important is no small agenda item.

More important than protecting American lives?

[Curly Bill]

More important than protecting American lives?

If you're an Obammy-style apologist for America, then yeah.

[okie52]

If you're an Obammy-style apologist for America, then yeah.

He was trying to apologize to save American lives...so you have to give him that.

[SoonerProphet]

Sounds like the CIA and their rent a cops were caught up in a sh!t storm. To bad some partisan f*cksticks didn't scream and cry when seven embassies were attacked under W. Nor did they shout murderer or liar, or other such nonsense in Lebanon. If it doesn't advance your political agenda you shove it down your massive memory holes.

How about we take a long look at our epic failures to change the face of this part of the world and come to grips that we can't actually transform a region that seethes in hatred and distrust of Western meddling.

[okie52]

Sounds like the CIA and their rent a cops were caught up in a sh!t storm. To bad some partisan f*cksticks didn't scream and cry when seven embassies were attacked under W. Nor did they shout murderer or liar, or other such nonsense in Lebanon. If it doesn't advance your political agenda you shove it down your massive memory holes.

How about we take a long look at our epic failures to change the face of this part of the world and come to grips that we can't actually transform a region that seethes in hatred and distrust of Western meddling.

So why are we still meddling?

[Curly Bill]

Sounds like the CIA and their rent a cops were caught up in a sh!t storm. To bad some partisan f*cksticks didn't scream and cry when seven embassies were attacked under W. Nor did they shout murderer or liar, or other such nonsense in Lebanon. If it doesn't advance your political agenda you shove it down your massive memory holes.

How about we take a long look at our epic failures to change the face of this part of the world and come to grips that we can't actually transform a region that seethes in hatred and distrust of Western meddling.

You'd be correct on this part.

[Midtowner]

More important than protecting American lives?

Our indiscriminate bombing campaign in Pakistan has not yet been shown to protect American lives more than it has inspired Muslims around the world to try and take American lives. As tenuous as things are in Libya, avoiding action which might do nothing and is likely to create collateral damage was possibly the best move... or mistakes were made. In either event, I'm not troubled either way.

[SoonerProphet]

You'd be correct on this part.

Nah, think the whole kit and kaboodle is rather spot on. It was an opportunity by various mouthbreathers to make hay out of subject they have been woefully ignorant on for the better part of two decades. Not since George I have we had a reasonable and well thought out foreign policy. Can you imagine any of the last three ******nozzles overseeing the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and Soviet Union.

[FaninAma]

Sounds like the CIA and their rent a cops were caught up in a sh!t storm. To bad some partisan f*cksticks didn't scream and cry when seven embassies were attacked under W. Nor did they shout murderer or liar, or other such nonsense in Lebanon. If it doesn't advance your political agenda you shove it down your massive memory holes.

How about we take a long look at our epic failures to change the face of this part of the world and come to grips that we can't actually transform a region that seethes in hatred and distrust of Western meddling.

How many ambassadors and American personnel were killed at the embassies that were attacked during Bush's term? And I don't think it is the fact the consulate was attacked that is causing Obama so much problem....it is the fact he tried to deflect and obsfucate what really happened and now we are learning that somebody in the administration ignored requests for help and 2 Navy Seals lost their lives trying to defend a hopeless situation.

If you want to accept the Administration's handling of this fiasco then I need offer no further explanation for why at least 47% of the electorate is satisfied with a small, unaccomplished, career politician holding the most powerful office in ithe world.

[LiveLaughLove]

How about we take a long look at our epic failures to change the face of this part of the world and come to grips that we can't actually transform a region that seethes in hatred and distrust of Western meddling.

The first part of your post is just deflection.

This part is incorrect also.

They hate us because we vigorously support Israel and equally vigorously refuse to submit to Allah.

They will never not hate us, unless we abandon Israel and submit to Allah.

They use our being there as an excuse, just as they used that video as an excuse.

The one thing they respect is power and force. Obama is not powerful and we will not use true force on them. So we are where we are.

BTW, I blame Bush too. He did not use true force against them. Shock and Awe sucked. When they killed our people in Faluja (sp) we should have dropped pamphlets that said we are going to level this town in one hour (think Dresden times a hundred). We have check points set up outside of town. You will be searched as you leave, everyone. If you remain inside this town in one hour, you are an enemy combatant and will be treated as such. Then we should have leveled that city into nonexistence.

Instead, we got more of our people killed going door to door. They had set up booby traps to injure and kill our guys and it succeeded. They knew that we would do that to minimize civilian casualties. They count on our weakness and lack of will to do what we really need to do. And they are always right about it.

I knew Bush wasn't serious when he allowed our people to be killed to save their civilians. That being the case, he should have never gone there in the first place.

As for Obama, no one and I mean no one fears Obama. I want their allegiance. I don't give a rip about their friendship. If they want to be friends fine, if not fine too. You can have their allegiance. But it takes a much stronger will than we have now.

[SoonerProphet]

How many ambassadors and American personnel were killed at the embassies that were attacked during Bush's term? And I don't think it is the fact the consulate was attacked that is causing Obama so much problem....it is the fact he tried to deflect and obsfucate what really happened and now we are learning that somebody in the administration ignored requests for help and 2 Navy Seals lost their lives trying to defend a hopeless situation.

If you want to accept the Administration's handling of this fiasco then I need offer no further explanation for why at least 47% of the electorate is satisfied with a small, unaccomplished, career politician holding the most powerful office in ithe world.

A total of 13 were killed in two attacks on US consulate in Karachi alone while W was Prez. Not one of you b*tched about it then cause it didn't jive with the fantasy world some people seem to be living in.

Those two navy seals worked for a contractor and showed up way after the ambassador was dead. Seems to be the only people trying to deflect and obfuscate our the Fox/Weekly Standard crowd who've offered up the same old tripe about a politician who happens to be on the different side of the money trough. It has zero to with policy. Facts have proven that the candidates don't offer up a real difference. If you can't see that then you have fallen for the same bull**** that is doled out regularly by both parties.

[cleller]

Nah, think the whole kit and kaboodle is rather spot on. It was an opportunity by various mouthbreathers to make hay out of subject they have been woefully ignorant on for the better part of two decades. Not since George I have we had a reasonable and well thought out foreign policy. Can you imagine any of the last three ******nozzles overseeing the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and Soviet Union.



Ron knew how to handle Soviets, and George I was darn smart in foreign matters.

Dealing with people that would rather live than die helps.

[okie52]

Our indiscriminate bombing campaign in Pakistan has not yet been shown to protect American lives more than it has inspired Muslims around the world to try and take American lives. As tenuous as things are in Libya, avoiding action which might do nothing and is likely to create collateral damage was possibly the best move... or mistakes were made. In either event, I'm not troubled either way.

You mean we don't summon our military forces to aid our troops under attack?


We didn't have a problem bombing Libyans a few months ago when no American lives were at stake.

[SoonerProphet]

The first part of your post is just deflection.

This part is incorrect also.

They hate us because we vigorously support Israel and equally vigorously refuse to submit to Allah.

They will never not hate us, unless we abandon Israel and submit to Allah.

They use our being there as an excuse, just as they used that video as an excuse.

The one thing they respect is power and force. Obama is not powerful and we will not use true force on them. So we are where we are.

How long do you expect people to believe that ****? How about illegal housing settlements, the overthrow of a democratically elected Mossadegh, crushing sanctions, etc. This neoconservative bromide about force is fiction and a proven loser. Continue to buy into that dispensationalist bs and see how well that works for ya. Much like you Romanian and Hungarian clap trap, this is pure hogwash as well.


BTW, I blame Bush too. He did not use true force against them. Shock and Awe sucked. When they killed our people in Faluja (sp) we should have dropped pamphlets that said we are going to level this town in one hour (think Dresden times a hundred). We have check points set up outside of town. You will be searched as you leave, everyone. If you remain inside this town in one hour, you are an enemy combatant and will be treated as such. Then we should have leveled that city into nonexistence.

Instead, we got more of our people killed going door to door. They had set up booby traps to injure and kill our guys and it succeeded. They knew that we would do that to minimize civilian casualties. They count on our weakness and lack of will to do what we really need to do. And they are always right about it.

I knew Bush wasn't serious when he allowed our people to be killed to save their civilians. That being the case, he should have never gone there in the first place.

As for Obama, no one and I mean no one fears Obama. I want their allegiance. I don't give a rip about their friendship. If they want to be friends fine, if not fine too. You can have their allegiance. But it takes a much stronger will than we have now.

What the hell are you talking about?

[rock on sooner]

The first part of your post is just deflection.

This part is incorrect also.

They hate us because we vigorously support Israel and equally vigorously refuse to submit to Allah.

They will never not hate us, unless we abandon Israel and submit to Allah.

They use our being there as an excuse, just as they used that video as an excuse.

The one thing they respect is power and force. Obama is not powerful and we will not use true force on them. So we are where we are.

BTW, I blame Bush too. He did not use true force against them. Shock and Awe sucked. When they killed our people in Faluja (sp) we should have dropped pamphlets that said we are going to level this town in one hour (think Dresden times a hundred). We have check points set up outside of town. You will be searched as you leave, everyone. If you remain inside this town in one hour, you are an enemy combatant and will be treated as such. Then we should have leveled that city into nonexistence.

Instead, we got more of our people killed going door to door. They had set up booby traps to injure and kill our guys and it succeeded. They knew that we would do that to minimize civilian casualties. They count on our weakness and lack of will to do what we really need to do. And they are always right about it.

I knew Bush wasn't serious when he allowed our people to be killed to save their civilians. That being the case, he should have never gone there in the first place.

As for Obama, no one and I mean no one fears Obama. I want their allegiance. I don't give a rip about their friendship. If they want to be friends fine, if not fine too. You can have their allegiance. But it takes a much stronger will than we have now.

LLL, nearly everything you say in this post I agree with...ESPECIALLY the part
about one hour notice! I'd take issue with your point about no one fearing Obama.
Pretty sure there are more than a few ragheads that don't want to be out in the
open in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya..to name a few places.

Mid, I don't think "indiscriminate bombing campaign" is an accurate statement.
There is nothing indiscriminate about a Predator drone blowing the hell out of
a truck with Haqqani insurgents on board.

[sappstuf]

A total of 13 were killed in two attacks on US consulate in Karachi alone while W was Prez. Not one of you b*tched about it then cause it didn't jive with the fantasy world some people seem to be living in.

Those two navy seals worked for a contractor and showed up way after the ambassador was dead. Seems to be the only people trying to deflect and obfuscate our the Fox/Weekly Standard crowd who've offered up the same old tripe about a politician who happens to be on the different side of the money trough. It has zero to with policy. Facts have proven that the candidates don't offer up a real difference. If you can't see that then you have fallen for the same bull**** that is doled out regularly by both parties.

I thought I corrected you about this before...

In one attack:


Twelve people were killed and 51 injured, all Pakistanis.

All Pakistanis were killed because the bomb blew up outside the compound. In another words, the security worked.

In the other bomb, a US diplomat was specifically targeted, not at the embassy, but across the street at the Marriott Hotel.

Either 1: you are trying to make a case ignorant of the facts or 2: hoping others are ignorant of the facts. You failed at the second and just received an education about the first.

[okie52]

I thought I corrected you about this before...

In one attack:



All Pakistanis were killed because the bomb blew up outside the compound. In another words, the security worked.

In the other bomb, a US diplomat was specifically targeted, not at the embassy, but across the street at the Marriott Hotel.

Either 1: you are trying to make a case ignorant of the facts or 2: hoping others are ignorant of the facts. You failed at the second and just received an education about the first.

I was ignorant of the facts Sapp...thanks for the enlightenment.

[sappstuf]

I was ignorant of the facts Sapp...thanks for the enlightenment.

You coming over to Italy anytime soon?

[okie52]

You coming over to Italy anytime soon?

Are you there now?

I'd love to make the trip, however, if Obama is still president it might take months to get there by sail.

[SoonerProphet]

I thought I corrected you about this before...

In one attack:



All Pakistanis were killed because the bomb blew up outside the compound. In another words, the security worked.

In the other bomb, a US diplomat was specifically targeted, not at the embassy, but across the street at the Marriott Hotel.

Either 1: you are trying to make a case ignorant of the facts or 2: hoping others are ignorant of the facts. You failed at the second and just received an education about the first.

So a diplomat was killed in a "terrorist" attack and you didn't feel the need to toss invictives like traitor, liar, etc...cause you had no partisan ground to gain.

But that 2003 attack on a diplomatic vehicle in Gaza pissed you off thought huh? You felt the urge to blame then didn't ya, could score some cool political turf over the deaths of those guys.

[LiveLaughLove]

How long do you expect people to believe that ****? How about illegal housing settlements, the overthrow of a democratically elected Mossadegh, crushing sanctions, etc. This neoconservative bromide about force is fiction and a proven loser. Continue to buy into that dispensationalist bs and see how well that works for ya. Much like you Romanian and Hungarian clap trap, this is pure hogwash as well.

Really? Going back to pre-Shah? Try living in this century. Nobody gives a crap about Mossadegh. If the Iranians do, then that's their problem. They are our enemy in today's world. I could not care less if their wee little feelers are hurt about Mossadegh. If they screw with the bull they had better get the horns. I hope when that day comes we have a President that will apply those horns up their derrieres.

Illegal settlements? Seems to me Israel goes out of their way to be too nice to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians want peace they can have in one second. All they have to do is denounce the violence and murder, and recognize Israel. They will never do it.

Crushing sanctions? If these countries don't want sanctions, then play by the rules of the rest of the world. If they don't then it's on them. When I didn't obey my father I got in trouble. If these rogue states don;t want to obey the rest of the civilized world, then they get on trouble.

As for the insults, I consider it a badge of honor to get insulted by someone of such high intellect as yourself. If you ever started agreeing with me, or I with you, I would feel the need to seriously reevaluate myself and see what happened to me.

Thankfully, you have once more, signaled to me that I am on the completely right track in life and have not veered off course.

You stay as classy as ever prophet.

[LiveLaughLove]

LLL, nearly everything you say in this post I agree with...ESPECIALLY the part
about one hour notice! I'd take issue with your point about no one fearing Obama.
Pretty sure there are more than a few ragheads that don't want to be out in the
open in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya..to name a few places.

Mid, I don't think "indiscriminate bombing campaign" is an accurate statement.
There is nothing indiscriminate about a Predator drone blowing the hell out of
a truck with Haqqani insurgents on board.


Watch out rock, prophet will be thinking your a dispensationalist. We can't have that.

[SoonerProphet]

Really? Going back to pre-Shah? Try living in this century. Nobody gives a crap about Mossadegh. If the Iranians do, then that's their problem. They are our enemy in today's world. I could not care less if their wee little feelers are hurt about Mossadegh. If they screw with the bull they had better get the horns. I hope when that day comes we have a President that will apply those horns up their derrieres.

Crushing sanctions? If these countries don't want sanctions, then play by the rules of the rest of the world. If they don't then it's on them. When I didn't obey my father I got in trouble. If these rogue states don;t want to obey the rest of the civilized world, then they get on trouble.

Like the NPT treaty?


Illegal settlements? Seems to me Israel goes out of their way to be too nice to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians want peace they can have in one second. All they have to do is denounce the violence and murder, and recognize Israel. They will never do it.


As for the insults, I consider it a badge of honor to get insulted by someone of such high intellect as yourself. If you ever started agreeing with me, or I with you, I would feel the need to seriously reevaluate myself and see what happened to me.

Thankfully, you have once more, signaled to me that I am on the completely right track in life and have not veered off course.

You stay as classy as ever prophet.

Ah yes, the round and round Pal/Isr debate. Don't think we will see eye to eye on that one either.

Don't whine about being classy when you are in the gutter right there with me. It reveals your hypocrisy.

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/sep/15/seal-vets-drawn-government-security-contracting/?print&page=all

[LiveLaughLove]

Like the NPT treaty?



Ah yes, the round and round Pal/Isr debate. Don't think we will see eye to eye on that one either.

Don't whine about being classy when you are in the gutter right there with me. It reveals your hypocrisy.

Not sure what the NPT has to do with this, but ok. If you mean not wanting Iran to have nukes, we don't need a treaty or reason other than our best interests to prevent them from getting them. That's it. It's in our countries best interests. I have no problem with us acting on our best interests.

The United States is allies with Israel. They are one of our best allies. There is no debating who's side the USA is on. Now who's side you are on, well that's up to you. As for me, there is no debate to it. Israel is a western democracy. The only one there. They are the only stable government we can deal with in that region. A large portion of their population are Americans or formerly Americans. The Palestinians are just another muslim semi-dictatorship. As I said, all they have to do is love their children more than they hate Jews and it would all end in a second.

As for being a hypocrite, if you only knew. I thank God for his salvation. It's for sure, I could never earn my way. Still I do try to stay out of the gutter. If you like it there, that's cool too. Enjoy.

[rock on sooner]

Watch out rock, prophet will be thinking your a dispensationalist. We can't have that.

Well, once upon a time Curly Bill told me to not bring civility
to the board. Guess I don't know what came over me....

[FaninAma]

A total of 13 were killed in two attacks on US consulate in Karachi alone while W was Prez. Not one of you b*tched about it then cause it didn't jive with the fantasy world some people seem to be living in.

Those two navy seals worked for a contractor and showed up way after the ambassador was dead. Seems to be the only people trying to deflect and obfuscate our the
Fox/Weekly Standard crowd who've offered up the same old tripe about a politician who happens to be on the different side of the money trough. It has zero to with
policy. Facts have proven that the candidates don't offer up a real difference. If you can't see that then you have fallen for the same bull**** that is doled out regularly by both parties.

Are you really trying to down play the heroism of the Navy Seals by tying them to private contractors? If not why even bring it up?

And are you not aware of the fact that these 2 Navy Seals went to the consulate and rescued personnel that were still alive as well as retrieving the body of the ambassador's assistant. They then held off the attackers at the safehouse for 7 hours until the Tripoli reinforcement contingent finally dexided to help out. By then it was too late for the Seals.

I think you might want to rethink the tone of your post in reference to the Navy Seals. It doesn't reflect very well on you.

[sappstuf]

So a diplomat was killed in a "terrorist" attack and you didn't feel the need to toss invictives like traitor, liar, etc...cause you had no partisan ground to gain.

But that 2003 attack on a diplomatic vehicle in Gaza pissed you off thought huh? You felt the urge to blame then didn't ya, could score some cool political turf over the deaths of those guys.

Your ignorance of the military is somewhat astounding...

You are trying to compare a car bombing, that begins and ends in a split second to a complex attack that lasted for hours against 2 separate US compounds.

If I didn't know better, I would think you are trying to pull my leg by making such a dumb comparison. Sadly though, you apparently think you are making a valid point.

[sappstuf]

Are you there now?

I'd love to make the trip, however, if Obama is still president it might take months to get there by sail.

Yeah, I'll be over here for the next 3 years.

Head north to Canada.. They have lots of oil.

[diverdog]

Yeah, I'll be over here for the next 3 years.

Head north to Canada.. They have lots of oil.

Which base? Naples or Sicily?

[SoonerProphet]

CIA statements say there was an initial attack that killed the ambassador a lull in the fight till around 5 am
when mortars landed on the building killing the two former seals. Doesn't sound like there was a running gun battle for seven hours.

[LiveLaughLove]

CIA statements say there was an initial attack that killed the ambassador a lull in the fight till around 5 am
when mortars landed on the building killing the two former seals. Doesn't sound like there was a running gun battle for seven hours.

My problem with it isn't what happened after the attack started, although there is plenty of criticism for that.

My problem is that they had virtually no protection to start with, on the anniversary of 9/11, in Benghazi, where AQ had ten known terror groups, where the ambassador had requested more security, where he wrote in his journal that there was a hit out on him.

It boggles the mind that we had marines guarding our Paris embassy, but not this one.

Instead we hire locals as guards. Because you know, we needed to be sensitive to their feelers.

My second issue was the decision to blame a video for two weeks to the point that Hillary Clinton tells Ty Woods dad that we would lock up the video maker and lo and behold, there he sits in jail today.

Parole violation my butt. The lie of b blaming the video is what turned this political. It was such Ann obvious lie the republicans would have to be imbeciles to ignore it.

[SoonerProphet]

Are you really trying to down play the heroism of the Navy Seals by tying them to private contractors? If not why even bring it up?

And are you not aware of the fact that these 2 Navy Seals went to the consulate and rescued personnel that were still alive as well as retrieving the body of the ambassador's assistant. They then held off the attackers at the safehouse for 7 hours until the Tripoli reinforcement contingent finally dexided to help out. By then it was too late for the Seals.

I think you might want to rethink the tone of your post in reference to the Navy Seals. It doesn't reflect very well on you.

Nope. I posted that San Diego news article to point out that these cats knew the score. They realized what a dangerous situation it was, as did the ambassador and his assistant. Stevens had been a point man in Benghazi since before Qadafi had even fallen. He knew that the eastern part of the country was rife with AQ linked groups, Islamists, and the like. Yet, like the CIA operatives, they had a job to do. What that job was exactly continues to be one of the many topics of the story that is still very cloudy.

As for you narrative about the way things went down that night, according to the CIA report, seems a bit cloudy as well. Sounds to me like the attack began around 940. Also it appears that the amb and his assistant were killed in the initial attack, don't know if the exact time of his death is known. Seems a sec team came over from Tripoli, seems a fight lasted to roughly 1 am, fighting stops, the two former seals are on the roof and a mortar attack kills them.

I don't give a f*ck what you think about my tone. I think you might want to rethink your walking over their dead corpses to score political points. It doesn't reflect very well on you.

[FaninAma]

Nope. I posted that San Diego news article to point out that these cats knew the score. They realized what a dangerous situation it was, as did the ambassador and his assistant. Stevens had been a point man in Benghazi since before Qadafi had even fallen. He knew that the eastern part of the country was rife with AQ linked groups, Islamists, and the like. Yet, like the CIA operatives, they had a job to do. What that job was exactly continues to be one of the many topics of the story that is still very cloudy.

As for you narrative about the way things went down that night, according to the CIA report, seems a bit cloudy as well. Sounds to me like the attack began around 940. Also it appears that the amb and his assistant were killed in the initial attack, don't know if the exact time of his death is known. Seems a sec team came over from Tripoli, seems a fight lasted to roughly 1 am, fighting stops, the two former seals are on the roof and a mortar attack kills them.

I don't give a f*ck what you think about my tone. I think you might want to rethink your walking over their dead corpses to score political points. It doesn't reflect very well on you.

I assume you think Tyrone woods' father is walking over his son's dead corpse(an oxymoron by the way) to score political points. These men are heroes. Their families deserve answers. It is not political to want to know why they were left to die and why there was so little advanced preparation if, as you say, everybody knew the score regarding how dangerous this place was.

You can show all the faux outrage you want but that doesn't change the fact that this administration f'd up and brave people died because of it.

[cleller]

CIA statements say there was an initial attack that killed the ambassador a lull in the fight till around 5 am
when mortars landed on the building killing the two former seals. Doesn't sound like there was a running gun battle for seven hours.

I guess they all watched the video, then attacked. Then watched the video again for several hours and attacked again.

Also highlights that if a military rescue had been promptly ordered, they may have gotten everyone to safety before the mortar attack.

[diverdog]

I guess they all watched the video, then attacked. Then watched the video again for several hours and attacked again.

Also highlights that if a military rescue had been promptly ordered, they may have gotten everyone to safety before the mortar attack.

The CIA thought the attacks were because of the videos. Lots of people did. This is a case of Fox News creating its own narrative. I blame Obama for having them in Benghazi. i do not blame for trying to figure out the cause of the attack which by the way we are not 100% certain of to this day.

Here is the sad truth. Terrorism always gets you with a sucker punch. The nailed us on 9/11 and again in Benghazi. We have to defend places all over the world and we have to be right 100% of the time. The terrorist only need to be right once. No one and I mean no one has any idea how many threats we deal with on a daily bases. When I use to brief air crews on threats I could not believe all the chit that was going on around the world. I can guarantee you Benghazi was not the only threats we were dealing with that day.

[FaninAma]

Diverdog, the problem with the administration's handling of this is that they ignored requests for more security BEFORE the attack happened then they were too passive in responding to requests for help AFTER the attack happened.

Security forces that were there are disputing the most recent offical CIA account of what happened on the ground. Obama and Hilliary's only hope is if the rest of the media continues to roll over for them when the really nasty information starts coming out in Congressional hearings. I personally don't think even the liberal dominated media in this country has the guts to do this.

[Midtowner]

Do you think the President personally decides the security configuration for every embassy?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Do you think the President personally decides the security configuration for every embassy?
^^^^^^^^^^^^More frumunda cheese poisoning...

[SoonerProphet]

I assume you think Tyrone woods' father is walking over his son's dead corpse(an oxymoron by the way) to score political points. These men are heroes. Their families deserve answers. It is not political to want to know why they were left to die and why there was so little advanced preparation if, as you say, everybody knew the score regarding how dangerous this place was.

You can show all the faux outrage you want but that doesn't change the fact that this administration f'd up and brave people died because of it.

You assertion that they were "left to die" is flat out nonsense. What kind of advanced preperation do you think is enough, a regimental combat team? Don't think the State and CIA fellas wanted a real large footprint.

Yes, cause I am the one who has been tossing bombs the last two weeks about impeachment, incompetence, and the like. Most of the faux outgrage has come from the usual partisan suspects.

[SoonerProphet]

Security forces that were there are disputing the most recent offical CIA account of what happened on the ground. Obama and Hilliary's only hope is if the rest of the media continues to roll over for them when the really nasty information starts coming out in Congressional hearings. I personally don't think even the liberal dominated media in this country has the guts to do this.

You mean Fox news is quoting "sources" who dispute the most recent offical CIA account.

[Jersey]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/normanboy/HMMMM_zpsca8ba593.jpg

[soonercruiser]

Do you think the President personally decides the security configuration for every embassy?

Do you think that if CIA cable copies went all the way "up the chain", and the attack was being watch in "real time" in the WH, and the President was sleeping in the WH, that the "White House" is culpable for denying aid, or not "acting"?????
Duh!

[soonercruiser]

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/sep/15/seal-vets-drawn-government-security-contracting/?print&page=all

And the point is (Prophet)?
They are somehow less valuable human beings??
They should throw away the standards to which they were trained???

Seems to me they ARE HIRED BECAUSE OF their training and moral standards.

[soonercruiser]

CIA statements say there was an initial attack that killed the ambassador a lull in the fight till around 5 am
when mortars landed on the building killing the two former seals. Doesn't sound like there was a running gun battle for seven hours.

According to a report on "Justice America (Judge Jeanine), there are already several CIA "operatives" in Libya who are willing to testify that the CIA's latest "timeline" is far from accurate. So, somebody in the CIA is lying....again!

[diverdog]

According to a report on "Justice America (Judge Jeanine), there are already several CIA "operatives" in Libya who are willing to testify that the CIA's latest "timeline" is far from accurate. So, somebody in the CIA is lying....again!

Bring them on. I call BS on you sources.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Of course you do, wow! Color me surprised...

[Harry Beanbag]

I get the feeling the further away we get from the attack, the further we get from the truth. There appears to be a strong CYA factor going on right now. As time passes the stories keep changing, but the constant is the Administration grabbed on to the stupid YouTube video story for weeks when we all know that is complete bull****, not to mention they have been denying extra security in Benghazi most of this year. No amount of spin can change those facts.

This doesn't even tip the iceberg with the Syrian arms, Syrian military, Russia rumors.

[LiveLaughLove]

Do you think the President personally decides the security configuration for every embassy?

Nope, but I think he personally blamed it on a film that he knew or had reasonable certainty was not the cause of it, and did so for political reasons.

I think he and his campaign had the UN secretary go on national tv and lie. (She may not have known she was lying, but I believe the campaign knew it full well)

I think this stinks to high heaven and thank goodness at least one "news" channel is actually going after the news on it.

You know if this were a Republican President it would be full page on every newspaper and lead story on every channel until the election.

But since it's Obama, it's a non-story to them.

[diverdog]

Nope, but I think he personally blamed it on a film that he knew or had reasonable certainty was not the cause of it, and did so for political reasons.

I think he and his campaign had the UN secretary go on national tv and lie. (She may not have known she was lying, but I believe the campaign knew it full well)

I think this stinks to high heaven and thank goodness at least one "news" channel is actually going after the news on it.

You know if this were a Republican President it would be full page on every newspaper and lead story on every channel until the election.

But since it's Obama, it's a non-story to them.


Good lord! Head in hand.

The UN Secretary briefed from notes prepared by the CIA. The prevailing initial thought of our security agencies on the first day was the attack was caused by the film. That assessment changed as more information came in.

[diverdog]

Of course you do, wow! Color me surprised...

I have friends who work in all our intelligence agencies. You ask them about their job and they will not tell you jack chit. Nothing.....nada......zippo.

No CIA Operative is going to blab to a reporter.....period. The men and women in these agencies are the best of the best and they dont't talk even if a mission is FUBAR. Let me ask you, when was the last time you saw a current CIA Operative talk?

[sappstuf]

Good lord! Head in hand.

The UN Secretary briefed from notes prepared by the CIA. The prevailing initial thought of our security agencies on the first day was the attack was caused by the film. That assessment changed as more information came in.

Except the CIA station chief in Libya. He pretty much immediately reported it as a terrorist attack. But if you ignore one of the guys in the best position to know... I'm sure you can come up with pretty much anything you want to.

Here is a good timeline from factcheck.org. The Obama administration certainly knew much earlier than it said that it was a terrorist attack.

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/benghazi-timeline/

[sappstuf]

Which base? Naples or Sicily?

Sicily

[cleller]

Except the CIA station chief in Libya. He pretty much immediately reported it as a terrorist attack. But if you ignore one of the guys in the best position to know... I'm sure you can come up with pretty much anything you want to.

Here is a good timeline from factcheck.org. The Obama administration certainly knew much earlier than it said that it was a terrorist attack.

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/benghazi-timeline/

People need to read that timeline before trying to hold a defense for Obama on every issue. It makes it very clear that the State Department knew full well (and told CNN) by Sept 13 that it was a preplanned attack. Leon Panetta evidently made the same report to Congress on Sept 14. Yet on Sept 14 the White House Press Sec denies it, then Obama lies to the nation on Sept 18. On Sept 24 and 25 he again attempts to evade or deceive on the issue.
Pretty spineless.

Factcheck also reveals that the White House knew within TWO HOURS that Ansar Al-Sharia, an Islamist group had claimed credit for the attack. The truth is not in these people. They are only self-concerned.

[diverdog]

Sicily

Have you been to the top of the volcano? Pretty cool. I went up during a minor lava flow. Make sure you pack some warm clothing. We went up when it was 98 degrees on the bottom and at the top it was in the thirties. Like to have frozen my *** off.

I cycled the island with some Italian road racers on another trip. Really had a lot of fun. We crashed a wedding, ate at some cool little cafes and dodged a lot of crazy drivers.

[diverdog]

People need to read that timeline before trying to hold a defense for Obama on every issue. It makes it very clear that the State Department knew full well (and told CNN) by Sept 13 that it was a preplanned attack. Leon Panetta evidently made the same report to Congress on Sept 14. Yet on Sept 14 the White House Press Sec denies it, then Obama lies to the nation on Sept 18. On Sept 24 and 25 he again attempts to evade or deceive on the issue.
Pretty spineless.

Factcheck also reveals that the White House knew within TWO HOURS that Ansar Al-Sharia, an Islamist group had claimed credit for the attack. The truth is not in these people. They are only self-concerned.


All of this leaves out one important detail:


. At a news conference the day after the ambassador and three other Americans were killed, a spokesman for Ansar al-Shariah praised the attack as the proper response to such an insult to Islam. “We are saluting our people for this zeal in protecting their religion, to grant victory to the prophet,” the spokesman said. “The response has to be firm.”

So with statements like this it is no wonder they were all over the map.

BTW it is not a crime to be wrong.

[diverdog]

Interesting read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/world/africa/benghazi-attack-raises-doubts-about-us-abilities-in-region.html?hp

It backs up my assertion that we cannot mobilize a force to go into an area with limited military forces in such a short time. This whole thing about 5 minutes is nonsense.

[cleller]

All of this leaves out one important detail:



So with statements like this it is no wonder they were all over the map.

BTW it is not a crime to be wrong.

If you think Obama and Clinton are just "wrong", you need to re-examine that Factcheck timeline. The only plausible explanation to their divergence from the facts as everyone else interpreted them is some form of intentional deception.

If Panetta and the Armed Forces Services Committee believe on Sept 14 that it was a planned attack, but Obama is on Letterman saying otherwise 4 days later, someone is juggling the facts, and trying to deceive.

Lying to Congress can get you thrown in jail. Lying to the country can get you reelected.

[Midtowner]

Nope, but I think he personally blamed it on a film that he knew or had reasonable certainty was not the cause of it, and did so for political reasons.

Or because stating in the media that we knew it was a coordinated effort would frustrate our efforts to hold these folks accountable?

The bottom line is that there are very few people who know. For a media outlet to be reporting something as fact when they're guessing is highly irresponsible.

[olevetonahill]

I get the feeling the further away we get from the attack, the further we get from the truth. There appears to be a strong CYA factor going on right now. As time passes the stories keep changing, but the constant is the Administration grabbed on to the stupid YouTube video story for weeks when we all know that is complete bull****, not to mention they have been denying extra security in Benghazi most of this year. No amount of spin can change those facts.

This doesn't even tip the iceberg with the Syrian arms, Syrian military, Russia rumors.

My thot also Bro

[SoonerProphet]

I get the feeling the further away we get from the attack, the further we get from the truth. There appears to be a strong CYA factor going on right now. As time passes the stories keep changing, but the constant is the Administration grabbed on to the stupid YouTube video story for weeks when we all know that is complete bull****, not to mention they have been denying extra security in Benghazi most of this year. No amount of spin can change those facts.

This doesn't even tip the iceberg with the Syrian arms, Syrian military, Russia rumors.

The exact same could be said for folks who have claimed this is a political football and have cautioned against making a political circus of it from day one. Starting with a presidential candidate who actually claimed our current one sympathized with the islamic groups attacking our various embassies. Then followed by all types of rumor and fabrication that ultimately led to the identification of CIA operatives working on the ground in our so called "war on terrorism". This is twice in the last decade that the gop has blown the lids off CIA goings on in attempts to launch political attacks. Do we hear shouts of treason from the FOX news crowd on that? So CYA factors are new to politics?

Regarding the video. There appears to plenty of social media interaction that involves various islamic groups referenced the video, western derpism, Jews, drones, or whatever the hell else regarding the deaths of patrons of the Great Satan. Days after the attack I posted a link to a FP site that refrenced ansar al sharia, but apparently that was to early in the game to get the talking points out. Fact of the matter seems to be that there ain't many facts to work with. Hell, we even hired an Islamist group, Feb. 17ths women beaters or something, to run security in Benghazi. Could have been an inside job. What went on there is the same kinda **** that has been going on for the last half-century. Cops get killed when you police the globe. Which speaks to your rumors on Russia and Syria...and Turkey, Israel, Iran, the House of Saud, the French, the Tunisians, the Egyptians, the Italians, the Malian, eh, you get my point.

[Harry Beanbag]

The exact same could be said for folks who have claimed this is a political football and have cautioned against making a political circus of it from day one. Starting with a presidential candidate who actually claimed our current one sympathized with the islamic groups attacking our various embassies. Then followed by all types of rumor and fabrication that ultimately led to the identification of CIA operatives working on the ground in our so called "war on terrorism". This is twice in the last decade that the gop has blown the lids off CIA goings on in attempts to launch political attacks. Do we hear shouts of treason from the FOX news crowd on that? So CYA factors are new to politics?

Regarding the video. There appears to plenty of social media interaction that involves various islamic groups referenced the video, western derpism, Jews, drones, or whatever the hell else regarding the deaths of patrons of the Great Satan. Days after the attack I posted a link to a FP site that refrenced ansar al sharia, but apparently that was to early in the game to get the talking points out. Fact of the matter seems to be that there ain't many facts to work with. Hell, we even hired an Islamist group, Feb. 17ths women beaters or something, to run security in Benghazi. Could have been an inside job. What went on there is the same kinda **** that has been going on for the last half-century. Cops get killed when you police the globe. Which speaks to your rumors on Russia and Syria...and Turkey, Israel, Iran, the House of Saud, the French, the Tunisians, the Egyptians, the Italians, the Malian, eh, you get my point.


Your fabricated, cynical "outrage" at everything is tired and does nothing for me. Your deflective questions also do nothing to advance any dialogue other than your own agenda.

Have a nice day.

[SoonerProphet]

Your fabricated, cynical "outrage" at everything is tired and does nothing for me. Your deflective questions also do nothing to advance any dialogue other than your own agenda.

Have a nice day.

About what I expected. The only folks "deflective" are the ones who are having their false narrative debunked, again. Go search for your next contrived issue, root for your team, and take advantage of the next death to score political points as long as it fits your worldview.

[Harry Beanbag]

About what I expected. The only folks "deflective" are the ones who are having their false narrative debunked, again. Go search for your next contrived issue, root for your team, and take advantage of the next death to score political points as long as it fits your worldview.

Nothing has been debunked genius. The people that are playing politics are the ones trying to sweep the whole incident under the rug to win reelection. Those people were left to die in Benghazi, they have been doomed for months. And you insist on denigrating the only people that had the sack to do anything about it. You are a disgusting excuse of an American Exceptionalist as you claim to be.

BTW, I'm not voting for Romney, but keep pretending you know everything about all the other posters because it fits your worldview. :rolleyes:

[LiveLaughLove]

About what I expected. The only folks "deflective" are the ones who are having their false narrative debunked, again. Go search for your next contrived issue, root for your team, and take advantage of the next death to score political points as long as it fits your worldview.

Yes Lord knows the Democrats never used the deaths of soldiers to score political points in the past did they? Still your premise isn't even true.

The President obviously lied for political gain. There are two reasons he would lie.

First, it would have been very detrimental to his campaign to admit that AQ wasn't, in fact, dead. He was campaigning on that very fact, well, premise. He is also such a narcissist that he is loath to admit a mistake.


Second, the sheer incompetence of not having adequate security on the anniversary of 9/11 caused an Ambassador to die. I know you guys want to minimize that fact, and say, others have died at embassies, but it's not the same.

We hadn't lost an Ambassador since the Carter administration. This one begged for more security, was in a AQ hotbed, and was trying to wait out the anniversary of 9/11. The level of incompetence that led to his death is just staggering.

To ignore it would be unconscionable. Yet, most "news" outlets do, because their politics matter more than the country does.

I am 100% positive that had this happened during a Republican's administration the amount of "news" about it would be staggering in volume, and you Prophet, and the rest of the Obama crew on here would be screaming bloody murder, so spare the outrage and indignation. It aint workin'.

[FaninAma]

Summary of the thread:
SoonerProphet: "Your argument has been debunked!"

Other posters:"How so?"

SoonerProphet: "Because I said so and besides any attempt to get answers regarding Libya is politically motivated and if you question this premise you are politically motivated. And BTW, the Navy Seals killed in Libya were hired guns and deserved to get hung out to dry by the US government."

Current score:

SoonerProphet: 100
SoonerProphet's Strawman: 0.

I think that about covers it.

[FaninAma]

Do you think the President personally decides the security configuration for every embassy?

Sign in Harry Truman's desk: The Buck Stops Here

Sign on Barrack Obama's desk: The Buck Never Got Here

[FaninAma]

I have friends who work in all our intelligence agencies. You ask them about their job and they will not tell you jack chit. Nothing.....nada......zippo.

No CIA Operative is going to blab to a reporter.....period. The men and women in these agencies are the best of the best and they dont't talk even if a mission is FUBAR. Let me ask you, when was the last time you saw a current CIA Operative talk?

I bet they do if their CIC is busy trying to throw them under the bus.

[FaninAma]

Interesting read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/world/africa/benghazi-attack-raises-doubts-about-us-abilities-in-region.html?hp

It backs up my assertion that we cannot mobilize a force to go into an area with limited military forces in such a short time. This whole thing about 5 minutes is nonsense.

Read the following excerpt from the artricle and see if you can find the spectacularly incredulous assertion and, by inference, the probable next scapegoat.:

Another option approved was to send the European Command’s quick-reaction force, which consists of about four dozen Special Forces soldiers and other specialists. But it was in the middle of a mission in Croatia. Elements of the team began leaving for Sigonella by 9 p.m., and the unit completed its deployment to Sicily shortly after noon the next day, a Pentagon official said. By then the 30 or so surviving Americans, and the bodies of their four colleagues, were in Tripoli.

It really takes our military over 24 hours to deploy a special ops rescue force? Apparently the Navy Seals in Benghazi were under a different impression about the response time, too. It seems they were expecting something a bit more quickly. What were they doing in Croatia on September 11th? Apparently "quick-reaction" is a relative term.

Everytime the administration and their sycophants in the media try to come out with a plausible reason for the mismanagement of this tragedy they just create more questions. Obviously their strategy is kick up as much smoke and dust as possible in hopes that the entire investigation gets bogged down trying to explore all of these rabbit holes.

[SoonerProphet]

Summary of the thread:
SoonerProphet: "Your argument has been debunked!"

Other posters:"How so?"

SoonerProphet: "Because I said so and besides any attempt to get answers regarding Libya is politically motivated and if you question this premise you are politically motivated. And BTW, the Navy Seals killed in Libya were hired guns and deserved to get hung out to dry by the US government."

Current score:

SoonerProphet: 100
SoonerProphet's Strawman: 0.

I think that about covers it.

Speaking of strawmans.

[SoonerProphet]

Nothing has been debunked genius. The people that are playing politics are the ones trying to sweep the whole incident under the rug to win reelection. Those people were left to die in Benghazi, they have been doomed for months. And you insist on denigrating the only people that had the sack to do anything about it. You are a disgusting excuse of an American Exceptionalist as you claim to be.

BTW, I'm not voting for Romney, but keep pretending you know everything about all the other posters because it fits your worldview. :rolleyes:

So you get called out for the bullsh!t stream and resort to tossing out "genius" and call me a "disgusting excuse". Sounds like an infantile play but it suits you.

Again, the whole "left to die" is a complete fabrication designed to appeal to those who will believe any nugget that the President is who you think he is. The only denigrating is you pissing on the lives of those people who knew the risks to score partisan points.

[SoonerProphet]

Read the following excerpt from the artricle and see if you can find the spectacularly incredulous assertion and, by inference, the probable next scapegoat.:


It really takes our military over 24 hours to deploy a special ops rescue force? Apparently the Navy Seals in Benghazi were under a different impression about the response time, too. It seems they were expecting something a bit more quickly. What were they doing in Croatia on September 11th? Apparently "quick-reaction" is a relative term.

Everytime the administration and their sycophants in the media try to come out with a plausible reason for the mismanagement of this tragedy they just create more questions. Obviously their strategy is kick up as much smoke and dust as possible in hopes that the entire investigation gets bogged down trying to explore all of these rabbit holes.

That NY Times piece discusses the problems with coming up with the resources and means of having a viable African Comman. It is not some indictment on the Administration. If offers up many of the same counter-points from the onset. There were no Navy Seals there, these are Foreign Service and CIA people. It will be hard to scapegoat the military because I don't think there are many links that tie them to the scene.

You guys can continue to pull those tinfoil hats on a bit tighter. Still think the situation is a bit more complex then Obama did nothing, went and banged Michelle, and the flew to a fund raiser. I know it makes for good sound bites and political zingers but often the reality is quite a bit different.

[SoonerProphet]

Even the neocons over at Commentary are getting weak in the knees. Max Boot for crying out loud.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/11/04/benghazi-revelations-reveal-lack-of-preparation-after-gaddafis-fall/

[cleller]

With all the back and forth, I just have two questions. Do you think the security in Benghazi was handled effectively?

Do you believe Obama gave the public misleading information about the nature of the attack?

[FaninAma]

That NY Times piece discusses the problems with coming up with the resources and means of having a viable African Comman. It is not some indictment on the Administration. If offers up many of the same counter-points from the onset. There were no Navy Seals there, these are Foreign Service and CIA people. It will be hard to scapegoat the military because I don't think there are many links that tie them to the scene.

You guys can continue to pull those tinfoil hats on a bit tighter. Still think the situation is a bit more complex then Obama did nothing, went and banged Michelle, and the flew to a fund raiser. I know it makes for good sound bites and political zingers but often the reality is quite a bit different.

It will be hard to scapegoat the military? You can see the groundwork for blaming them already being laid. "Well, Obama(or HR Clinton) ordered military backup but they couldn't make it in time. " Which of course begs the question of why there wasn't more security on the ground in Benghazi if they knew it would take reinforcements over a day to get into the area.

[SoonerProphet]

With all the back and forth, I just have two questions. Do you think the security in Benghazi was handled effectively?

Do you believe Obama gave the public misleading information about the nature of the attack?

Any type of answer to either of those questions is mere speculation. Everything that has been released to date offers tons of contradictory information. As for the first question: I would assume the answer lies within the reasons why Stevens was there and what the nature of his visit was. Obviously he felt safe enough to fly to Benghazi on the anniversary of 9/11. He felt safe enough to conduct business in the open. He went to Benghazi on some kind of Greek freighter in the early days of the civil war. Pretty sure dude knew what he was up to, even though we may not. Second question is quite the doozy, loaded with all types of assertions: Fact seems to be in the initial traffic of chatter plenty of nefarious groups were talking, doesn't mean the administration was misleading, CIA was going with what they had.

[SoonerProphet]

It will be hard to scapegoat the military? You can see the groundwork for blaming them already being laid. "Well, Obama(or HR Clinton) ordered military backup but they couldn't make it in time. " Which of course begs the question of why there wasn't more security on the ground in Benghazi if they knew it would take reinforcements over a day to get into the area.

Did you read the Boot article from Commentary:

Why wasn’t there more military assistance? That remains murky, but the best explanation–and the one most exonerating to the administration–has come from none other than Paul Wolfowitz, the former deputy secretary of defense. He writes, based on information that apparently comes from senior military figures (albeit second hand), that “decision makers in Washington appear to have been leaning forward, as they should have been.” He goes on to to note that:


The military’s most capable rescue force, based on the East Coast, was deployed immediately (something that is very rarely done), but – given the distances involved – arrived at Sigonella only after the crisis was over.

Also, the European command (EUCOM) deployed its number one counter terrorism force, which was training in central Europe, as quickly as possible, but it arrived in Sigonella after the evacuation of the Annex was complete.

Other special forces deployed to Sigonella but arrived on the 12th after it was too late to make a difference in Benghazi.

There was no AC-130 gunship in the region. The only drone available in Libya was an unarmed surveillance drone which was quickly moved from Darna to Benghazi, but the field of view of these drones is limited and, in any case, this one was not armed.

The only other assets immediately available were F-16 fighter jets based at Aviano, Italy. These aircraft might have reached Benghazi while the fight at the Annex was still going on, but they would have had difficulty pinpointing hostile mortar positions or distinguishing between friendly and hostile militias in the midst of a confused firefight in a densely populated residential area where there would have been a high likelihood of civilian casualties. While two more Americans were tragically killed by a mortar strike on the Annex, it’s not clear that deploying F-16’s would have prevented that.

[rock on sooner]

Enough already! Obama's bunch probably blew it and the final
after action, when the truth is brought to light, will show that
some mid level schmuck screwed up and will be hung out to
dry. Geez, aren't you guys tired of whipping that poor horse?

[Midtowner]

Sign in Harry Truman's desk: The Buck Stops Here

Sign on Barrack Obama's desk: The Buck Never Got Here

This is such a contrived issue. It's only bad if you can speculate that it's bad. How is the reaction being what it is so justifiable as compared to embassy raids during Johnson's time or during Carter's?

You're attempting to score political points for an American tragedy and you don't even have the integrity to get your facts straight or care that your facts are wrong.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Enough already! Obama's bunch probably blew it and the final
after action, when the truth is brought to light, will show that
some mid level schmuck screwed up and will be hung out to
dry. Geez, aren't you guys tired of whipping that poor horse?

So now you think it was probably some mid-level schmuck...Aren't you tired of suck'n that horses cack?

[SoonerProphet]

http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/obamas-libya-failure-7690

[rock on sooner]

So now you think it was probably some mid-level schmuck...Aren't you tired of suck'n that horses cack?

TF, I just don't know about you. Once in a while you say something sensible.
Good on ya! Then ya go and f*** it up! Surely, you know that bad info got
sent up the chain and some midlevel knucklehead either didn't forward it on
or did and some other mf'er screwed it up even worse. Obama's group, where-
ever it settles, screwed this mess up, and made it worse by trying to deflect it,
which is SOP for any politician. My point is, get that horse's cack outa YOUR
mouth and let it go.

[FaninAma]

SoonerProphet, even if I accept everything you say at face value (i.e. a rapid deployment security force could not get to Benghazi in time) that only adds to the validity of the criticism directed at the State department for the lack of security staffing/planning prior to the attack. It's a Catch-22 for the administration.

[Soonerjeepman]

Facts:
attack happened on the anniversary of 9/11...why we didn't have extra security to begin with is beyond me..but I'm just a regular citizen

the first thing out of clinton's mouth was "it was because of a you tube video"

the folks had been requesting extra security for months in advance

nothing was done...

with all that I don't care WHO didn't do anything...it was/is unacceptable and fortunately/unfortunately the buck stops with clinton/obama and they are NOT admitting anything

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Impeach The Socialist!!!!

[diverdog]

Read the following excerpt from the artricle and see if you can find the spectacularly incredulous assertion and, by inference, the probable next scapegoat.:


It really takes our military over 24 hours to deploy a special ops rescue force? Apparently the Navy Seals in Benghazi were under a different impression about the response time, too. It seems they were expecting something a bit more quickly. What were they doing in Croatia on September 11th? Apparently "quick-reaction" is a relative term.

Everytime the administration and their sycophants in the media try to come out with a plausible reason for the mismanagement of this tragedy they just create more questions. Obviously their strategy is kick up as much smoke and dust as possible in hopes that the entire investigation gets bogged down trying to explore all of these rabbit holes.

Why in the hell do you guys think that Benghazi was the only place on the whole ****ing planet that was threatened on 9/11?

Quick reaction is a relative term. When I was in the service these kind of missions are what we trained for and I can tell you if no one is on alert it takes a while to get going. You have everything from packing your kit to a trip to the armory, to loading the aircraft to preflight planning to flying flying to the drop zone. About the only forces that I knew that had less than a half hour turn around were the nuclear forces who had hot birds sitting alpha alerts.