GUN BAN OBAMA

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Whether one joins the NRA, still interesting and informative: http://www.gunbanobama.com/

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/c0.0.249.249/p403x403/304931_527470177267593_860216222_n.jpg

[SanJoaquinSooner]

He [Obama} also said in New Orleans that AK-47s belong on the battlefield, not on the streets.

I've asked a couple of times in other threads, but I don't think anyone ever chose to respond. What is the NRA position on someone buying weapons, such as AK-47s, and in turn funneling them to the drug cartels? Should there be any U.S. laws that may inhibit this - involving the original dealer or the original purchaser?

[soonercruiser]

SJ is obviously asking about the Justice Dept's coverup on F&F!

If it's good enough for gobment to kill innocent people, maybe we shouldn't worry about the NRA.
:apologetic:

[olevetonahill]

I've asked a couple of times in other threads, but I don't think anyone ever chose to respond. What is the NRA position on someone buying weapons, such as AK-47s, and in turn funneling them to the drug cartels? Should there be any U.S. laws that may inhibit this - involving the original dealer or the original purchaser?

I know you are not Totaly stupid .
The NRA has repeatedly said
Enforce the existing laws
There are existing laws against straw purchasing. It would seem your only purpose in repeatedly asking this is to try to stir **** up when the Toilet has already been flushed

[soonercruiser]

Vet!
Do you want a dissenting opinion?
:surprise:

[yermom]

ah, NRA fear mongering, the reason i didn't renew

i'm pretty sure they spent every cent i gave them in dues to send me junk mail

the ACLU is just as bad though.

[Skysooner]

ah, NRA fear mongering, the reason i didn't renew

i'm pretty sure they spent every cent i gave them in dues to send me junk mail

the ACLU is just as bad though.

Denver in the summer is a never ending lineup of Green Peace, ACLU, Children's International and the homeless all asking for donations downtown. It gets to where I avoid them and walk down another street to get to my lightrail.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I know you are not Totaly stupid .
The NRA has repeatedly said
Enforce the existing laws
There are existing laws against straw purchasing. It would seem your only purpose in repeatedly asking this is to try to stir **** up when the Toilet has already been flushed

No, that is not my purpose. My purpose is to understand the gun advocates' positions. Don't different states have different existing laws? Which existing laws? If I purchase an AK-47, what should be my rights to transfer it? What obligations would I have to process a transfer?

Vet, I don't know what you mean by "toilet already flushed." Gun sales and transfers continue presently.

[olevetonahill]

ah, NRA fear mongering, the reason i didn't renew

i'm pretty sure they spent every cent i gave them in dues to send me junk mail

the ACLU is just as bad though.

Bro, What group doesn't use hyperbole in its shtick?

Im a Paid up life member been one for over 30 years. I dont always agree with all the crap thats spewed either, Dont mean Im going to turn my back on a Fine organization that has done more for the shooting sports than any other.

The thing with Obama IMHO is the Potential SCOTUS appointments. Thats what Im skeered of
A liberal stacked court, I kinda like it the way it is , Not to Liberal, Not to Con.

[olevetonahill]

No, that is not my purpose. My purpose is to understand the gun advocates' positions. Don't different states have different existing laws? Which existing laws? If I purchase an AK-47, what should be my rights to transfer it? What obligations would I have to process a transfer?

Vet, I don't know what you mean by "toilet already flushed." Gun sales and transfers continue presently.

I mean theres No **** here to stir in this Pot.
There are NO universal States laws on guns, Cal and a few others have passed State laws that would choke a horse.

A United States citizen under Federal law may purchase all the weapons they want. Thats what sticks in the anti gunners craw.
I can Buy and sell all I want as a Private citizen , Its when You go to buying and selling with the INTENT to circumvent existing laws that you get in trouble

Say I go to a Gun show and buy 5 AK47s, Come home and want to sell 4, Thats Legal since all im really doing is trying to cover my expense and get a decent deal on the ONE I want for myself

Now say I went and bot those 5 then headed for Border country to INTENTIONALLY sell them to someone who will take them across the border . Then Im breaking Federal law
See?

[olevetonahill]

As a Matter of fact I dont think Yall in Cal can even BUY an AK47 or a Mini 14 can you?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

The sale of AK-47s were outlawed in California after a mass shooting of a bunch of 4th graders at an elementary school. That was about 20 or 25 years ago.

Vet, on the transfer as a private citizen, if I sell the 4 weapons, am I obligated to verify legal residence or citizenship? Or if the buyer is not a convicted felon? Anything like e-verify? If they produce an ID that looks valid, is my *** covered?

[Skysooner]

My only issue with guns is keeping them out of the hands of crazies and selling them to the drug cartels or others who would hurt Americans. Olev is likely right. Enforce the laws on the books. This thread is teaching me some things I didn't know. I have only ever owned shotguns.

[olevetonahill]

My only issue with guns is keeping them out of the hands of crazies and selling them to the drug cartels or others who would hurt Americans. Olev is likely right. Enforce the laws on the books. This thread is teaching me some things I didn't know. I have ever owned shotguns.

In a FREE society, there is NO way to keep them away from the Crazies, The Drug dudes are gonna get em anyway they can. Either Steal em or Buy em from a weapons supplier. Which, Quite frankly I cant believe is not already their biggest supplier of weapons now.

Its hards to fathom that if the Cartels want weapons why they would settle for the semiautos that can be legally bot here to buying a boat load of Full autos from say China or any of the Old Soviet block countries

[SicEmBaylor]

No, that is not my purpose. My purpose is to understand the gun advocates' positions. Don't different states have different existing laws? Which existing laws? If I purchase an AK-47, what should be my rights to transfer it? What obligations would I have to process a transfer?

Vet, I don't know what you mean by "toilet already flushed." Gun sales and transfers continue presently.
You shouldn't be restricted in the least bit on who you sell your gun to so long as the person you are selling to is an American citizen and not convicted of a violent felony. Whatever happens to that firearm isn't and shouldn't be your problem.

[SicEmBaylor]

The sale of AK-47s were outlawed in California after a mass shooting of a bunch of 4th graders at an elementary school. That was about 20 or 25 years ago.

Vet, on the transfer as a private citizen, if I sell the 4 weapons, am I obligated to verify legal residence or citizenship? Or if the buyer is not a convicted felon? Anything like e-verify? If they produce an ID that looks valid, is my *** covered?

You should have to ensure they're a citizen and not a felon.

[Skysooner]

My only issue with guns is keeping them out of the hands of crazies and selling them to the drug cartels or others who would hurt Americans. Olev is likely right. Enforce the laws on the books. This thread is teaching me some things I didn't know. I have ever owned shotguns.

In a FREE society, there is NO way to keep them away from the Crazies, The Drug dudes are gonna get em anyway they can. Either Steal em or Buy em from a weapons supplier. Which, Quite frankly I cant believe is not already their biggest supplier of weapons now.

Its hards to fathom that if the Cartels want weapons why they would settle for the semiautos that can be legally bot here to buying a boat load of Full autos from say China or any of the Old Soviet block countries

I know and it is frustrating. Even if they couldn't get them legally there are always ways. There are too many mass killings.

[olevetonahill]

The sale of AK-47s were outlawed in California after a mass shooting of a bunch of 4th graders at an elementary school. That was about 20 or 25 years ago.

Vet, on the transfer as a private citizen, if I sell the 4 weapons, am I obligated to verify legal residence or citizenship? Or if the buyer is not a convicted felon? Anything like e-verify? If they produce an ID that looks valid, is my *** covered?

Since YOU cant buy em there, Ill use Oklahoma OK?
If i bot em at a Gun show from an Individual, I dint have to provide any ID for them . If I sell a Gun which I have numerous times, I usually KNOW the person anyway . So No I dont need to do anything , Its a private sale .
Now Heres a case in point
15 years er so ago I bot a Mini 14 Enjoed the hell out of it,
Sold it to a friend who wanted one, he was from new Mexico, sent me the money then a few months later came by and picked the weapon up
No records , no nothing, Other than when I bot the gun from the Gun store , , Now if that weapon ever gets used in a crime, They will track it back to the Original point of sale,The Dealer will go thru his/her records and find the Original Purchaser (me in this case) Give that info to the Feds. The feds in turn will contact me, Ill have to convince them that I sold it to my friend they then will go question him , and keep trackin untill they lose the trail or find the last owner.


So to make it simple
ONLY Licensed Dealers are required to keep records and ask for ID

[olevetonahill]

I know and it is frustrating. Even if they couldn't get them legally there are always ways. There are too many mass killings.

Which is not the fault of Legal gun owners but society as a whole

[olevetonahill]

You should have to ensure they're a citizen and not a felon.

Not under current law

[Skysooner]

I know and it is frustrating. Even if they couldn't get them legally there are always ways. There are too many mass killings.

Which is not the fault of Legal gun owners but society as a whole
Completely agree with that.

[SicEmBaylor]

Since YOU cant buy em there, Ill use Oklahoma OK?
If i bot em at a Gun show from an Individual, I dint have to provide any ID for them . If I sell a Gun which I have numerous times, I usually KNOW the person anyway . So No I dont need to do anything , Its a private sale .
Now Heres a case in point
15 years er so ago I bot a Mini 14 Enjoed the hell out of it,
Sold it to a friend who wanted one, he was from new Mexico, sent me the money then a few months later came by and picked the weapon up
No records , no nothing, Other than when I bot the gun from the Gun store , , Now if that weapon ever gets used in a crime, They will track it back to the Original point of sale,The Dealer will go thru his/her records and find the Original Purchaser (me in this case) Give that info to the Feds. The feds in turn will contact me, Ill have to convince them that I sold it to my friend they then will go question him , and keep trackin untill they lose the trail or find the last owner.


So to make it simple
ONLY Licensed Dealers are required to keep records and ask for ID
You're right -- verifying would hurt gun show sales. I'm in agreement with you. I don't like the idea of selling to violent felons, but I like the idea of restricting private sales even less.

[olevetonahill]

Did Yall know that a Convicted felon , CAN own a fire arm?

[olevetonahill]

You're right -- verifying would hurt gun show sales. I'm in agreement with you. I don't like the idea of selling to violent felons, but I like the idea of restricting private sales even less.

Most sales at Gun shows are done by Licensed dealers so its no big deal. They have to complete the paper work no matter what

Very few sales at Gun shows are by individuals, Those are usually some one bringing a gun to the show and looking to sell it out right or trade, which they do usually thriu a Dealer

[Soonerjeepman]

what is sooo frustrating for us LEGAL and DECENT gun owners is the libs want all these rules THINKING that will stop the crazies, etc from killing sprees but it won't do jack to them...he11 they don't abid by the rules NOW. What makes you think they will all of the sudden start..dumba$$e$

[olevetonahill]

what is sooo frustrating for us LEGAL and DECENT gun owners is the libs want all these rules THINKING that will stop the crazies, etc from killing sprees but it won't do jack to them...he11 they don't abid by the rules NOW. What makes you think they will all of the sudden start..dumba$$e$

Yup. It aint the "Normal" folk that go to killing a bunch

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

what is sooo frustrating for us LEGAL and DECENT gun owners is the libs want all these rules THINKING that will stop the crazies, etc from killing sprees but it won't do jack to them...he11 they don't abid by the rules NOW. What makes you think they will all of the sudden start..dumba$$e$that's their knee-jerk thinking at work. Sort of like raising taxes, and thinking people are just going to sit there and take it in the shorts, without taking counter measures to protect their income from the ever-gobbling government, such as moving business offshore, etc.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

what is sooo frustrating for us LEGAL and DECENT gun owners is the libs want all these rules THINKING that will stop the crazies, etc from killing sprees but it won't do jack to them...he11 they don't abid by the rules NOW. What makes you think they will all of the sudden start..dumba$$e$

Legal and Decent gun owners can purchase guns with no problem from gun dealers, right? They don't have to purchase off-the-books in a private transaction.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Did Yall know that a Convicted felon , CAN own a fire arm?

although convicted felons don't necessarily have a constitutional right to own a fire arm.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Since YOU cant buy em there, Ill use Oklahoma OK?
If i bot em at a Gun show from an Individual, I dint have to provide any ID for them . If I sell a Gun which I have numerous times, I usually KNOW the person anyway . So No I dont need to do anything , Its a private sale .
Now Heres a case in point
15 years er so ago I bot a Mini 14 Enjoed the hell out of it,
Sold it to a friend who wanted one, he was from new Mexico, sent me the money then a few months later came by and picked the weapon up
No records , no nothing, Other than when I bot the gun from the Gun store , , Now if that weapon ever gets used in a crime, They will track it back to the Original point of sale,The Dealer will go thru his/her records and find the Original Purchaser (me in this case) Give that info to the Feds. The feds in turn will contact me, Ill have to convince them that I sold it to my friend they then will go question him , and keep trackin untill they lose the trail or find the last owner.


So to make it simple
ONLY Licensed Dealers are required to keep records and ask for ID

Well that tracking works if you sold it to a friend or relative and the cops threaten you with time in jail if you don't rat out who you sold it to if a crime is committed with the weapon. But if you sold it to some guy asking for one on craigslist and you met him in the Walmart parking lot to complete the transaction and now you don't know who the guy was, didn't keep a phone number or anything .... it may not be traceable.

The bottom line being, if you allow private transactions with no verification of who you are selling to, you may be selling to a gangster or a terrorist or an illegal alien. It's kind of a "don't ask, don't tell." "I won't ask you if you're a gangster, and if you don't tell me you're a gangster, I can sell you these 4 AK 47s."

[SicEmBaylor]

although convicted felons don't necessarily have a constitutional right to own a fire arm.

Well, I somewhat beg to differ. Since the US Constitution does not explicitly deny the right of gun ownership to a convicted felon then it is assumed that's a right the felon continues to possess until such time as the state government exercises its rights and legislatively limits felons from possessing firearms.

IOW, it is a state matter that should be determined by the states. The only role I see the Federal government having is limiting a felon's right to cross state lines with a firearm.

[olevetonahill]

So much lack of knowledge in this thread.



Legal and Decent gun owners can purchase guns with no problem from gun dealers, right? They don't have to purchase off-the-books in a private transaction.

jaun, its not a matter of "HAVING" to buy from an individual, Say you want to buy a used car, Are you going to buy from an Indy or are you going on down to Diablo motors?



although convicted felons don't necessarily have a constitutional right to own a fire arm.

A person's rights (at least here in Oklahoma and I think Its Nation wide) are restored fully after they have served their sentence,
Say the Maximum term you could have been sentenced to was 20 years , You serve a 10 sentence, another 10 and your full debt to society is PAID. and you get your rights restored

[rock on sooner]

Did Yall know that a Convicted felon , CAN own a fire arm?

Vet, FYI, a felon convicted of a STATE offense may petition the state,
(depends on the state) for restoration of gun ownership. If the felon
is convicted of a FEDERAL offense, then that felon has no chance of
restoration.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

It is my understanding that felons convicted under state law may petition for restoration of gun ownership rights, and it is easier in some states than others, and it may depend on the nature of the offense e.g., violent or not. Also if the conviction was in federal court, it is much more difficult to have rights restored. In some cases, only with presidential pardon.

So if you have a dude convicted in federal court for drug trafficking, good chance gun ownership rights havent been restored. Also, many convicted felons are on probation so I would guess they can't legally own during probationary status.

In any case, it is not automatic that a convicted felon has had his/her constitutional right to gun ownership restored. Certain rights are forfeited under a felony conviction.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

vet, on the car sale analogy, my experience has been that record of the transaction has to be sent to DMV, even between private parties.

[olevetonahill]

Vet, FYI, a felon convicted of a STATE offense may petition the state,
(depends on the state) for restoration of gun ownership. If the felon
is convicted of a FEDERAL offense, then that felon has no chance of
restoration.

All I know is a friend was convicted a LONG time ago of a felony in Kansas.
He can now legally Own and Buy firearms and has never received a pardon or anything else

[olevetonahill]

vet, on the car sale analogy, my experience has been that record of the transaction has to be sent to DMV, even between private parties.

The Seller should do that to cover their ***, But here in OK. its not required

[diverdog]

Of course no one wants to talk about this:


Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire: 16,907 in firearm suicides, 11,920 in firearm homicides, 730 in unintentional shootings, and 232 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries.

Our deaths and injuries by firearms in this country is off the charts. These are battlefield statistics and no one wants to talk about why we are such a violent nation.

[diverdog]

The Seller should do that to cover their ***, But here in OK. its not required

How do they get title to the car and get it registered? I would think you would have to show proof of ownership.

[olevetonahill]

How do they get title to the car and get it registered? I would think you would have to show proof of ownership.

Once again you assume every one is going to be legal
Hell If theres a current tag on the thing then if the car is cheap enough they will just drive it , without ever changin it over Nor carryin Ins.

[olevetonahill]

Of course no one wants to talk about this:



Our deaths and injuries by firearms in this country is off the charts. These are battlefield statistics and no one wants to talk about why we are such a violent nation.
Discuss what?
Over 1/2 in your little Box are garenteed Crazy MoFos ( They Kilt themselves, So they got to be Nuckin Futs, Right?) and almost 1/2 are criminals ( They got to be Criminals they kilt some one else Right?)
Whats to discuss?

Show where you got your Stats from ?

[Midtowner]

Obama has increased gun rights. He signed legislation allowing firearms in national parks and has not restricted rights whatsoever.

More made-up outrage here.

[StoopTroup]

I scanned over this thread a bit and although I think Juan is trying to tell us that California Laws are superior and that their laws have worked very well, we are talking about a move to make a California Law a Federal Law that we all must adhere too. I expect there to be plenty of hesitance to accept any law that looks like California Law as many Americans flinch when any one State or a small amount of States seek to get a Federal Law passed.

That said, I didn't notice if these AK-47s were actual AK-47 Full Auto Wespons or SKS Chrome Barreled Knock-Offs? Passing any such Law has always tried to make sense to voters who have never owned a gun. Passing a law that makes sense to real American Gun Owners should be the most important ideal when considering any law. To just throw out a tag line "Ban Assault Weapons!" is stupid and dangerous to the principles that keep our Country not only safe from tyrrany but also from Cartels that would give a National Guard Unit problems.

[Soonerjeepman]

Of course no one wants to talk about this:



Our deaths and injuries by firearms in this country is off the charts. These are battlefield statistics and no one wants to talk about why we are such a violent nation.

GUNS are NOT the reason...
2 of the major ones in my opinion are; violent TV shows and lack of good parental guidance (which opens up a whole can of worms/issues)

[Soonerjeepman]

More made-up outrage here.

actually DD I've received many emails from NRA that refute a lot of the bogus emails sent out. I believe they are pretty on top as far as weeding out the bs, so I"ll take their opinion over most.

[pphilfran]

The biggest issue is that we hear of every murder that takes place within the US...wasn't that way in 1960...

Violent crime peaked in 1991 and even with an increase in population has has dropped by a quarter since that time...murder has dropped by about the same 25%...

Don't let the talking heads tell you how violent we have become...

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

[pphilfran]

The US murder rate is at the lowest level since 1963...

[hawaii 5-0]

I think history and the facts show that only one candidate has actually done something to restrict gun ownership.

It ain't Obama.

All the 'gonna-dos' and 'will-dos' is just BS. Scare tactics that the gun shop owners just love to hear.

5-0

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I think Juan is trying to tell us that California Laws are superior and that their laws have worked very well,

I'm not trying to send a message. I'm trying to understand how people think through this issue.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

"I believe in keeping GUNS OUT of our inner cities"- Barack H. Obama, Oct. 17, 2006(at the Call to Renewal conference)

Fast and Furious was an attempt to make the 2nd Amendment unpopular in the USA. One would think the Hispanic community would be upset by that disgraceful program

[yermom]

The US murder rate is at the lowest level since 1963...

wasn't that when they started taking gun laws seriously?

JFK's assassination was a catalyst from my understanding

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Lol @ the UN small arms treaty still being brought up. Earth to clone, the small arms treaty deals with international arms trade only, it even has a provision reaffirming states abilities to regulate their own domestic transfers. On top of all that we have neither signed nor ratified the treaty, anyways.

[Soonerjeepman]

SCS, the treaty is still up for discussion (among other treaties the dems want ratified)...the issue behind all of that is giving up our constitution to abide by a un treaty...no thanks. I'll believe the NRA on that vs anyone on here.

again, we have ENOUGH laws and regulations...they just need enforced for the BAD guys.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

SCS, the treaty is still up for discussion (among other treaties the dems want ratified)...the issue behind all of that is giving up our constitution to abide by a un treaty...no thanks. I'll believe the NRA on that vs anyone on here.

again, we have ENOUGH laws and regulations...they just need enforced for the BAD guys.
How exactly does ratifying an international trade treaty give up the constitution? Doesn't congress have the authority to regulate international trade?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Lol @ the UN small arms treaty still being brought up. Earth to clone, the small arms treaty deals with international arms trade only, it even has a provision reaffirming states abilities to regulate their own domestic transfers. On top of all that we have neither signed nor ratified the treaty, anyways.LOL, the president wants gun control, along with lots of other control, over lots of things, some of which are unconstitutional. If that doesn't faze you, I guess maybe a Christian calling abortion murder might?

[StoopTroup]

I think it doesn't faze people because those statements that you think should faze folks have been used like the boy who called wolf for so long that when you mention it, it's become like someone telling you that you will get struck by lightning every time it thunders.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I think it doesn't faze people because those statements that you think should faze folks have been used like the boy who called wolf for so long that when you mention it, it's become like someone telling you that you will get struck by lightning every time it thunders.Improper analogy. The boy calling wolf calls it when he knows there's no wolf. Obear taking control of the American economy, and other illegal but unstopped activities have been going on for some time, and we're much worse as a country for it.

You're unfazed because you want an authoritarian, unconstitutional government. The more, the better it seems. The constitution, and the Christian and Jewish religions DO present problems for you, though.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I just skimmed over this thread and saw AK47. I love mine that I got a couple months ago. Stop being a p*ssy and let me have my fun. I'm not going to hurt anything...except stray cats.

Oh yeah, as for Obama's second amendment stances, he supported SB 1195 (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=1195&GAID=3&DocTypeID=SB&LegId=4124&SessionID=3&GA=93) which defined an "assault weapon" as any semi-automatic firearm that has a magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds as well as the regulations in the '94 bill.

Oh yeah, not to mention Obama voted, not once but twice, against allowing a Chicago citizen to use a handgun in self defense (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/06/30/obamas-illinois-votes-on-guns/).