How the GOP broke the American Dream

[yermom]

http://www.examiner.com/article/from-reagan-to-bush-how-the-gop-has-broken-the-american-dream


For over thirty years, the growing gap between the rich and poor in the United States has widened at an alarming rate. The once proud and strong middle class has deteriorated over the last three decades and if the American dream is to be achieved again, the country needs to drastically change.

When Ronald Reagan was elected president, he started the United States down a path of economical and social destruction. In his first four years in office, from 1981 to 1985, Reagan lowered the top income tax bracket from 70% to 50%. Over the next four years, Reagan took the top bracket from 50% and cut it down to only 28%. With the lack of revenue coming into the federal government, the national debt tripled and to make up for the loss, Reagan raided the Social Security trust fund and went on to raise taxes eleven times, primarily on working Americans.

We've seen how trickle down economics works over the last 30 years...

I can cut and paste to Mazeppa ;)

[soonerhubs]

This is what you call an extremely nonlinear reductionist's paradigm. I see no mention of other factors that include at minimum the housing market, global trading, or demographic shifts, so I call bs on this person's opinion.

[Skysooner]

This is what you call an extremely nonlinear reductionist's paradigm. I see no mention of other factors that include at minimum the housing market, global trading, or demographic shifts, so I call bs on this person's opinion.

I agree. What has been more of a problem is the globalization of economies and our failure to shift our workforce into the new paradigm. Lots more to it of course, but Hubs has covered most of it.

[soonercruiser]

And, in fours years in office, Obama has set an all time record for families on welfare!
So, I guess gobment welfare is the New American Dream.
:02.47-tranquillity:

[SoonerorLater]

This is the stuff that makes me want to put a fist thru this screen. Republican this, Democrat that, blah blah. Until our Monetary system is cleaned up and fiscal sanity is restored no President, Congress or Political Party is going to be able to change anything. Most of us were just fortunate enough to live in the historical economic sweet spot in the USA. It wasn't always like this for the larger population and it is unlikely to be that way going forward. The politicians have tried to keep the game going with money printing but it will end like all other profligate governments of the past.

[Skysooner]

Nice post, Soonerorlater.

[diverdog]

I agree. What has been more of a problem is the globalization of economies and our failure to shift our workforce into the new paradigm. Lots more to it of course, but Hubs has covered most of it.

That is not all of it. Our military industrial complex is eating us alive. We have been effectively at war since 1990 and during that time we have not paid for much of it. Now the Republicans want to start another war. Very few nations have been able to sustain conflict for this length of time and not destroy their economy.

[olevetonahill]

That is not all of it. Our military industrial complex is eating us alive. We have been effectively at war since 1990 and during that time we have not paid for much of it. Now the Republicans want to start another war. Very few nations have been able to sustain conflict for this length of time and not destroy their economy.

DD, wanta clarify that statement?

Theres a Big difference between WANTIN to and Havin to. I know of NO one in their right mind that WANTs to start a war.

[Skysooner]

I agree. What has been more of a problem is the globalization of economies and our failure to shift our workforce into the new paradigm. Lots more to it of course, but Hubs has covered most of it.

That is not all of it. Our military industrial complex is eating us alive. We have been effectively at war since 1990 and during that time we have not paid for much of it. Now the Republicans want to start another war. Very few nations have been able to sustain conflict for this length of time and not destroy their economy.

Lots of truth to this too. That is what I meant by not shifting the work force. Applies to the loss in manufacturing jobs as well as producing goods like the f22 which aren't needed.

[FaninAma]

http://www.examiner.com/article/from-reagan-to-bush-how-the-gop-has-broken-the-american-dream



We've seen how trickle down economics works over the last 30 years...

I can cut and paste to Mazeppa ;)

Three words: Look at Europe.

Liberal mantra/whine: The deficit is growing because we don't tax enough. It really gets old and it provides clear evidence that as long a the progressives have any say or other course they will never, ever, ever, ever cut spending......until they are forced to like they are in Europe.

It's just frustrating to try and converse with those who refuse to see the European model of progressivism collapsing before our very eyes. It is upsetting that you can really be that stupid/blind/ignorant/stubborn.

Will one of the progressives on thios board outline a meaningful spending cut or reduction they would agree to? I will give you the military but what else?

And oh, BTW, we have hit the point of diminishing returns with social spending. The more the goverenment spends the wider the income distribution gap becomes. The elite rich and big corporations have figured out how to capture and profit the most from government spending especially that done in the name of the poor.

[Skysooner]

http://www.examiner.com/article/from-reagan-to-bush-how-the-gop-has-broken-the-american-dream



We've seen how trickle down economics works over the last 30 years...

I can cut and paste to Mazeppa ;)

Three words: Look at Europe.

Liberal mantra/whine: The deficit is because we don't tax enough.....waaaaaaaaaaahh! It really gets old and it provides clear evidence that as long a the progressives have any say or other course they will never, ever, ever, ever cut spending......until they are forced to like they are in Europe.

It's just frustrating to try and converse with those who refuse to see the European model of progressivism collapsing before our very eyes. It is upsetting that you can really be that stupid/blind/ignorant/stubborn.

This applies to both sides. I have yet to see any Congress cut spending. It is our biggest problem.

[FaninAma]

This applies to both sides. I have yet to see any Congress cut spending. It is our biggest problem.

Of course it is Congress. But every time any politician talks about cutting soscial spending they are absolutely bludgeoned by the progressives in the public media and with voters who vote only for their own self-interest.

I will wager any amount you want to wager that the spending will not be cut or reduced and if it isn't cut or reduced the progressives can never raise taxes to the point that the deficit will be reduced.

We are locked in and this kabuki dance will reach it's ugly end. Again, look at Europe. We are about 3 to 5 years behind them. It may happen sooner because Europe's implosion will hasten the end(default) here in the US.

[pphilfran]

IRS data - AGI - number of returns http://www.irs.gov/uac/SOI-Tax-Stats---Individual-Statistical-Tables-by-Size-of-Adjusted-Gross-Income

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/agi.jpg

[pphilfran]

What wage groups grew the most from 1996-2009? (Total range they have available)

[Always_Sooner]

"Trickle Down Economics" is a coined lexicon of the left. It's called supply side economics and when it's done right makes a lot of sense. The problem with the Reagan administration was he got a ton of fake spending cuts from Tip O'Neil, but Reagan wasn't willing to gut the defense in the heat of the Soviet arms race.

Supply side did what it was supposed to do. It grew the median income, and increased government revenues and created an economic environment for growth. It's proven that you can only confiscate the wealth one time and people will not do business and begin to invest elsewhere.

[pphilfran]

In which wage groups would you want to see more returns?

[pphilfran]

What do you consider as middle class?

[pphilfran]

Is the middle class actually "dieing"?

[Always_Sooner]

Everything the government does except maintain infrastructure and defend us is over kill.

We need a day of reckoning, where people wake up and realize that the individual has to take control of their life.

[pphilfran]

Which group is really getting hit the hardest?

[pphilfran]

And why is that hardest hit group doing so poorly?

[Skysooner]

Of course it is Congress. But every time any politician talks about cutting soscial spending they are absolutely bludgeoned by the progressives in the public media and with voters who vote only for their own self-interest.

I will wager any amount you want to wager that the spending will not be cut or reduced and if it isn't cut or reduced the progressives can never raise taxes to the point that the deficit will be reduced.

We are locked in and this kabuki dance will reach it's ugly end. Again, look at Europe. We are about 3 to 5 years behind them. It may happen sooner because Europe's implosion will hasten the end(default) here in the US.

Congress just needs to gut up and do it. It can't be one way or another. There will likely be some tax increases. There need to be many more spending cuts. We also have to be careful not to completely tank the economy either which drives revenues down. I detailed much of it in this thread.

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?171154-what-are-the-answers-to-the-problems

[Always_Sooner]

I want to know where are both sides willing to pull up their sleeves and solve this issue?

It's pathetic; because neither party does anything but flap their gums. I'm ready to elect types on both side of the isle that are citizens first that want to perform meaningful reform and make real decisions.

[Always_Sooner]

I don't see anyone bold in leadership right now. We need more people like Scott Walker that want to tackle issues.

[SoonerorLater]

I want to know where are both sides willing to pull up their sleeves and solve this issue?

It's pathetic; because neither party does anything but flap their gums. I'm ready to elect types on both side of the isle that are citizens first that want to perform meaningful reform and make real decisions.

I know how this is going to come off but we are now at zero per cent chance that things will end well. Our only choices are to blow up our currency or slip into great Depression II. Ten years ago if we would have addressed our long term problems head on this could have been avoided to the extent we avoided collapse. Ugly and unpleasant yes, but survivable in our current form. Now it's just a matter of time. Having the World's Reserve currency has it's benefits but it has it's downside too.

[diverdog]

In which wage groups would you want to see more returns?

Phil:

Something we have never addressed is that the middle class has expanded because of two wage earners in a home. My dad was able to provide for our family because when he retired he knew he would have medical care and a pension. He saved money but he did not save like we do because he had a defined pension.

[badger]

If we raised taxes on the wealthy, wouldn't they just find new loopholes and offshore accounts to avoid said taxes? I mean, isn't that a big complaint about the wealthy, how they tax dodge so they don't pay their fair share?

Meh, nothing I can do about it. :(

[yermom]

how about sending the people that do that to jail?

[badger]

how about sending the people that do that to jail?

If I was a cop, a judge, a law enforcer of some type, sure, I'd round em up.

Alas, I'm a 20-something mommy with an infant that thinks 1 a.m. is time to wake up. :(

[cleller]

Alas, I'm a 20-something mommy with an infant that thinks 1 a.m. is time to wake up. :(


See there, you've got a lot going for you. You'd be surprised how often you'll look back and smile. 20-something and infants don't last long.

[pphilfran]

Phil:

Something we have never addressed is that the middle class has expanded because of two wage earners in a home. My dad was able to provide for our family because when he retired he knew he would have medical care and a pension. He saved money but he did not save like we do because he had a defined pension.

The two wage earner family is a fair point...I wish the IRS had data going back further...with the two wage families there are a lot more people in the job market and that puts added downward pressure on wages since there are more in the workforce...

Pensions are a problem in themselves...back in the good old days (prior to the mid 70's) US firms saw little competition from overseas....they had great growth plans that could support retirees and their pensions...once the foreign competition came into play...competition with much cheaper labor and benefits...pressure was placed on the profits and growth business plans of the US based companies...and if the company didn't continue to grow those profits and bennies were much harder to support...

We have had past discussions on pensions and 401k's...we both know that a 401k is not going to be the total answer...but in the world economics we currently face I am afraid that is all we gotz...

[KABOOKIE]

how about sending the people that do that to jail?

Great. So send all of the wealth to jail. Now what? Maybe the 43% will invest in Amercia and grow this economy? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[KABOOKIE]

Republican/Democrat it ain't going to matter. Gov't spending is a machine gone mad and it won't stop until it reaches default. Its not a matter of IF but WHEN.

[pphilfran]

Republican/Democrat it ain't going to matter. Gov't spending is a machine gone mad and it won't stop until it reaches default. Its not a matter of IF but WHEN.

I don't think it will get that far...

Each year a higher percentage of the population moves to the sick and tired of Congress side of the debate...I truly think both parties are going to bite the dust...imo we will not see much accomplished over the next four years and the public will throw a **** fit...

I am already there..I am voting against all incumbents...and if there is an independent on the ballot they will get my vote...

[okie52]

I don't think it will get that far...

Each year a higher percentage of the population moves to the sick and tired of Congress side of the debate...I truly think both parties are going to bite the dust...imo we will not see much accomplished over the next four years and the public will throw a **** fit...

I am already there..I am voting against all incumbents...and if there is an independent on the ballot they will get my vote...

You rebel.

[pphilfran]

with a cause...

[StoopTroup]

I'm trying to look back in History to find some guys that started Wars who were in their right mind.

[StoopTroup]

http://content8.flixster.com/rtactor/42/33/42330_pro.jpg

Nothing there....

[StoopTroup]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Bin_laden_image_2.png/220px-Bin_laden_image_2.png

Nothing There......

[StoopTroup]

Still looking....

http://www.husseinandterror.com/images/Saddam2.jpg

[yermom]

Great. So send all of the wealth to jail. Now what? Maybe the 43% will invest in Amercia and grow this economy? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

so we should just let all of the money in the country just leave? let's not disturb the wealthy. they might not drop some of their scraps on us.

[KABOOKIE]

so we should just let all of the money in the country just leave? let's not disturb the wealthy. they might not drop some of their scraps on us.

Biting the hand that feeds you hasn't exactly been a good strategy either.

[StoopTroup]

I got really close with this one but for some reason he didn't follow through and put an end to the nut job that really needed his *** kicked...

http://m.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/first-family/masthead_image/41gb_header_sm.jpg

[StoopTroup]

Biting the hand that feeds you hasn't exactly been a good strategy either.

I'm having a hard time chewing on the case of Romney Jerky Mitt sent to my house.

[cleller]

This whole platform of blaming the rich for everything is getting tiring. Sounds like a bunch of Russian or French peasants. We don't live in a monarchy.

[Skysooner]

This whole platform of blaming the rich for everything is getting tiring. Sounds like a bunch of Russian or French peasants. We don't live in a monarchy.

Agreed to a point. However the brown-nosing that goes on with certain politicians and the rich just because they can help them get reelected gets old as well.

One thing that I really hate that Obama didn't do was to put some of those bankers in jail when the collapse happened. There was some outright fraud going on in some cases. Yet, we bailed them out.

I don't like giving tax breaks to the rich just because the whole class is considered "job creators". Give the tax breaks to those who actually create jobs whether through business expansion, forming new businesses or in the case of a private equity firm making a business more competitive. We have way too many tax breaks in this country for individuals that aren't helping the economy. We also have way too many entitlements for those people at the bottom that aren't helping the economy either. There has to be some common sense middle ground here.

[Soonerjeepman]

Being in education, one of the issues we have is teaching kids the same things we did in the 1940's and up. There are not very many blue collar (factory) jobs that one can make a decent living at. Where the education you needed was basic math/reading/writing. Kids need more problem solving skills, for one. This is just one thought.

There was one study where American students are ranked around 38th with skills but in the top 3 with self-esteem. That will get us nowhere!

[yermom]

Agreed to a point. However the brown-nosing that goes on with certain politicians and the rich just because they can help them get reelected gets old as well.

One thing that I really hate that Obama didn't do was to put some of those bankers in jail when the collapse happened. There was some outright fraud going on in some cases. Yet, we bailed them out.

I don't like giving tax breaks to the rich just because the whole class is considered "job creators". Give the tax breaks to those who actually create jobs whether through business expansion, forming new businesses or in the case of a private equity firm making a business more competitive. We have way too many tax breaks in this country for individuals that aren't helping the economy. We also have way too many entitlements for those people at the bottom that aren't helping the economy either. There has to be some common sense middle ground here.

this is something i can get behind, not just assuming that the wealthy are just noble benefactors for all of us

[Skysooner]

Being in education, one of the issues we have is teaching kids the same things we did in the 1940's and up. There are not very many blue collar (factory) jobs that one can make a decent living at. Where the education you needed was basic math/reading/writing. Kids need more problem solving skills, for one. This is just one thought.

There was one study where American students are ranked around 38th with skills but in the top 3 with self-esteem. That will get us nowhere!

I completely agree with this. We haven't done our kids any good by not changing the way we educate them. Many of the skills taught now will not get them into the 21st century economy.

[Curly Bill]

Its more than how we educate our kids, but that we became less concerned with truly educating them, and more concerned that they feel good about themselves. We've essentially created a generation of entitled losers.

[Skysooner]

Its more than how we educate our kids, but that we became less concerned with truly educating them, and more concerned that they feel good about themselves. We've essentially created a generation of entitled losers.

Given some of the kids we see in our neighborhood, I can't argue with that either. Both of our kids work for their money now. The older works part-time at a grocery store, and my youngest (13) has a snow-blowing business during the winters here. Grades are discussed but not hovered over too much. We don't build them up too much or tear them down too much. Rather we find where they are weak in their lives and work with them on it.

[badger]

I completely agree with this. We haven't done our kids any good by not changing the way we educate them. Many of the skills taught now will not get them into the 21st century economy.
I am starting to suspect that the testing industry is in bed with a lot of politicians, because there seems to be an increased emphasis on test scores as opposed to actual education.

I am probably not going to carry through on this when Baby Badger is in school, but right now, I hope that grades are not the end-all be-all in her education, because it just isn't worth it. Everyone gets a 4.0 now, everyone gets into college, everyone is above average and is special and an overachiever.

[badger]

Speaking of education crap, the GOP better watch itself or there might be a parental uprising if they keep cutting (or not adequately funding) public education in Oklahoma. Fallin was probably not expecting this when she visited Tulsa. (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=336&articleid=20120930_16_A20_GvayFl217401) Is more money going to make Oklahoma schools better? No, but neither will:

1- Diverting funds to private schools for disabled students
2- Withholding state funding at the beginning of the school year, just to see if there's more enrolled in online programs.
3- Having politicians call out schools for the size of their bank accounts, funding which is typically used to hold schools over till state funds start coming in around October-ish
4- Sell the state a lottery program on the basis of increasing state education funds, then determining education funding based on lottery estimates.


I know that teachers unions are big and bad in places like New York and Chicago, but here, teachers actually pay into their own retirement funds and make do with a lot less while begging parents and non-profits to donate copy paper so they can teach students.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

And, in fours years in office, Obama has set an all time record for families on welfare!
So, I guess gobment welfare is the New American Dream.
:02.47-tranquillity:
Do you fact check anything?

Avg monthly TANF recipients, with poverty and unemployment rate



1996 12,320,970 11.0 5.4
1997 10,375,993 10.3 4.9
1998 8,347,136 10.0 4.5
1999 6,824,347 9.3 4.2
2000 5,778,034 8.7 4.0
2001 5,359,180 9.2 4.7
2002 5,069,010 9.6 5.8
2003 4,928,878 10.0 6.0
2004 4,748,115 10.2 5.5
2005 4,471,393 9.9 5.1
2006 4,166,659 9.8 4.6
2007 3,895,407 9.8 4.5
2008 3,795,007 10.3 5.4
2009 4,154,366 11.1 8.1
2010 4,375,022 11.7 8.6
2011 4,363,000

Available from the Office of Family Assistance website

[Skysooner]

Do you fact check anything?


Cruiser has never been known to let a fact get in the way of good right wing fiction.

[yermom]

I am starting to suspect that the testing industry is in bed with a lot of politicians, because there seems to be an increased emphasis on test scores as opposed to actual education.

I am probably not going to carry through on this when Baby Badger is in school, but right now, I hope that grades are not the end-all be-all in her education, because it just isn't worth it. Everyone gets a 4.0 now, everyone gets into college, everyone is above average and is special and an overachiever.

the problem is that it's easy to measure. it's hard to tell what Johnny can really understand, but you can tell how he scored on a test at the end of the year

everyone thinks they are special until they try to get into MIT or something

[cleller]

Do you fact check anything?

Avg monthly TANF recipients, with poverty and unemployment rate


Available from the Office of Family Assistance website

These figures seem to be dropping alarmingly because they begin in 1996 when this TANF business was created. It slowly disbursed the old "welfare" recipients into various other programs, giving this illusion of an steep drop. Some other figures that contrast and contradict this trend are that in Dec 2001, 18 million people were receiving foodstamps. Now its over 46 million. Thats a pretty dramatic increase.

Two sources: http://frac.org/reports-and-resources/snapfood-stamp-monthly-participation-data/2010-snap-data/
http://www.businessinsider.com/number-of-americans-food-stamps-2012-9

And a picture for you to see just how much food stamp programs have risen under Obama. Alarming:
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/food-stamps-yearly1.jpg

Now for the Americans receiving benefits chart:

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/Graph-americans-receiving-government-benefits1.jpg

If you want to argue that fewer Americans are reliant on government support, you're just flying in the face of facts. Yeah, that fact checking will get you every time. The fact is that Cruiser's statement is accurate. You found it so distasteful, you quickly gave an ill conceived attempt at discrediting him, and bungled it.
The evidence that reliance on government has risen to new heights under Obama's term is undeniable. You can either admit it, or further discredit yourself.

[badger]

everyone thinks they are special until they try to get into MIT or something

Or till they take the ACT. One guy at our school was an honors/high honors student... and he scored 19 on his ACT.

[yermom]

These figures seem to be dropping alarmingly because they begin in 1996 when this TANF business was created. It slowly disbursed the old "welfare" recipients into various other programs, giving this illusion of an steep drop. Some other figures that contrast and contradict this trend are that in Dec 2001, 18 million people were receiving foodstamps. Now its over 46 million. Thats a pretty dramatic increase.

Two sources: http://frac.org/reports-and-resources/snapfood-stamp-monthly-participation-data/2010-snap-data/
http://www.businessinsider.com/number-of-americans-food-stamps-2012-9

And a picture for you to see just how much food stamp programs have risen under Obama. Alarming:
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/food-stamps-yearly1.jpg

Now for the Americans receiving benefits chart:

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/Graph-americans-receiving-government-benefits1.jpg

If you want to argue that fewer Americans are reliant on government support, you're just flying in the face of facts. Yeah, that fact checking will get you every time. The fact is that Cruiser's statement is accurate. You found it so distasteful, you quickly gave an ill conceived attempt at discrediting him, and bungled it.
The evidence that reliance on government has risen to new heights under Obama's term is undeniable. You can either admit it, or further discredit yourself.

so anyone getting anything from the government is "on welfare"?

[cleller]

so anyone getting anything from the government is "on welfare"?

Its all juggling numbers or semantics. The end result is the same. More people depend on the government's assistance now that ever before.

[Skysooner]

Or till they take the ACT. One guy at our school was an honors/high honors student... and he scored 19 on his ACT.

My wife scored an 11 on her ACT. She was honors society in a small town. Still, she ended up with a 3.7+ on OU in both undergraduate and graduate degrees.

[FaninAma]

Do you fact check anything?

Avg monthly TANF recipients, with poverty and unemployment rate



Available from the Office of Family Assistance website

So, is your assertion that the TANF is the only benchmark of government assistance to the poor and needy?

[FaninAma]

so anyone getting anything from the government is "on welfare"?

What's your definition of welfare? I would classify the foodstamps/SNAP prorams, Medicaid, Subsidies to the Indian Health System, the earned income tax credit, programs to subsidize monthly rent or mortgage payments and utility costs, SSI when the recepient hasn't paid into the system, and TANF as welfare.

I would exclude Medicare or regualar Social Security benfits in which you or your spouse paid into the system.

[rock on sooner]

so anyone getting anything from the government is "on welfare"?

I submit that every poster on this board is on welfare..i.e. gov't assistance
and/or gov't subsidy..
the water you drink, electricity you use, the gas you pump into your car,
the cotton used to make your tee shirt, the grain in your cereal, the Public
Radio you listen to, the road/street you drive on, the bridge you cross,
the medicine you take, your IRA, 401k, charity giving, the train, your bank,
your kid's school, fire dept, police dept. ALL these things have gov't assistance
and/or subsidies. Everywhere you turn or you look you'll see the gov't is
in it up to YOUR eyeballs. Some on here just want the government to butt
out of their lives. Well, just what kind of life would that be if that butting out
came to pass?

[yermom]

What's your definition of welfare? I would classify the foodstamps/SNAP prorams, Medicaid, Subsidies to the Indian Health System, the earned income tax credit, programs to subsidize monthly rent or mortgage payments and utility costs, SSI when the recepient hasn't paid into the system, and TANF as welfare.

I would exclude Medicare or regualar Social Security benfits in which you or your spouse paid into the system.

that was my question. "welfare" to me is a check that you get for sitting on your couch. there are people on food stamps, etc... that just can't get by even with a job.

[Soonerjeepman]

I submit that every poster on this board is on welfare..i.e. gov't assistance
and/or gov't subsidy..
the water you drink, electricity you use, the gas you pump into your car,
the cotton used to make your tee shirt, the grain in your cereal, the Public
Radio you listen to, the road/street you drive on, the bridge you cross,
the medicine you take, your IRA, 401k, charity giving, the train, your bank,
your kid's school, fire dept, police dept. ALL these things have gov't assistance
and/or subsidies. Everywhere you turn or you look you'll see the gov't is
in it up to YOUR eyeballs. Some on here just want the government to butt
out of their lives. Well, just what kind of life would that be if that butting out
came to pass?

lol..you really put that? I think MOST Americans understand the difference between what you are saying and what the conservatives are saying. The simple fact is Dem as a whole want programs that assist people, unfortunately it was originally in a time of need...not a lifestyle which it has become. Those that have been on welfare for generations, food stamps, sec 8, etc. A lot of the parents I see do work, but spend their money on cars (nice new ones), clothes, phones, computers, etc rather than the basics. They get food stamps, sect 8 housing etc..they work for cash so they can still get the benefits.

[FaninAma]

that was my question. "welfare" to me is a check that you get for sitting on your couch. there are people on food stamps, etc... that just can't get by even with a job.

I would rather call it what it is.....a subsidy. I am not commenting on the emotional aspect of the subsidies or whether they are a good or bad thing. Eventually the decision on who gets subsidies and how much they get will not be based on emotion but rather economic reality.

There is not enough money to be obtained from those earning more than $250,000 to even begin to make a dent in the deficit. Expenditures will have to be cut and I want the same people who were complicit in getting people dependent on the subsidies to also get the blame for cutting them.

[yermom]

i'm with you there, but before i started cutting there, i'd be looking at FSAs, 401k, mortgages, etc...

cutting spending in areas where it wouldn't cripple people or take food out of their mouth

[pphilfran]

I would eliminate the dependent deduction.. kids, no deduction...

[cleller]

I would eliminate the dependent deduction.. kids, no deduction...

No way. Never. If you're a well-connected Senator with some money, and fat pension for life it is much easier just to let the country slowly grind itself away than to do something unpopular

[pphilfran]

I never said it WOULD happen... lol

[cleller]

I never said it WOULD happen... lol

Oh yeah. Its funny, even CBS News had a story tonight about The Fiscal Cliff. The tone of the report was "if this happens, we're dead. Even if we avoid it, things don't look very good."

[rock on sooner]

lol..you really put that? I think MOST Americans understand the difference between what you are saying and what the conservatives are saying. The simple fact is Dem as a whole want programs that assist people, unfortunately it was originally in a time of need...not a lifestyle which it has become. Those that have been on welfare for generations, food stamps, sec 8, etc. A lot of the parents I see do work, but spend their money on cars (nice new ones), clothes, phones, computers, etc rather than the basics. They get food stamps, sect 8 housing etc..they work for cash so they can still get the benefits.

Hey, Jeep, Yeah, I put that out there because I think that a lot of people
forget about just how much gov't is in their lives and set about denigrating
the folks, that for the most part, are in a mess that they need help getting
out of. Sure, there are those that game the system and should be tossed,
but, most need the help and, if they didn't have the help would be a bigger
burden on the taxpayers.

I do volunteer work at my church for the kids that are on free and reduced
meals...giving them a hand to be able to eat on the weekends so they come
to school on Monday with more energy...measurable improvement, based
on teacher reports.

I don't know how one would do it but there should be efforts to root out the
"gamers", just like the fraud, waste and abuse in Medicare and Medicaid. There
is so much there that if it were eliminated, or at least measurably reduced, it
would go a LONG way toward cutting the deficit.

[rock on sooner]

lol..you really put that? I think MOST Americans understand the difference between what you are saying and what the conservatives are saying. The simple fact is Dem as a whole want programs that assist people, unfortunately it was originally in a time of need...not a lifestyle which it has become. Those that have been on welfare for generations, food stamps, sec 8, etc. A lot of the parents I see do work, but spend their money on cars (nice new ones), clothes, phones, computers, etc rather than the basics. They get food stamps, sect 8 housing etc..they work for cash so they can still get the benefits.

I'd bet that a lot of people have given no thought to just how much Uncle
Sam is in their live, even more, had no clue...

[FaninAma]

I submit that every poster on this board is on welfare..i.e. gov't assistance
and/or gov't subsidy..
the water you drink, electricity you use, the gas you pump into your car,
the cotton used to make your tee shirt, the grain in your cereal, the Public
Radio you listen to, the road/street you drive on, the bridge you cross,
the medicine you take, your IRA, 401k, charity giving, the train, your bank,
your kid's school, fire dept, police dept. ALL these things have gov't assistance
and/or subsidies. Everywhere you turn or you look you'll see the gov't is
in it up to YOUR eyeballs. Some on here just want the government to butt
out of their lives. Well, just what kind of life would that be if that butting out
came to pass?

So I take it you subscribe to the "You didn't build that" philosophy.

I also take it that you feel the government has revenues that somehow don't come from the taxpayers. Can you be so kind as to reveal these other sources of revenue?

Here is a quick fact. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

The government doesn't subsidze anybody or anything. The taxpayers do. Jesus H. Christ Why is that such a difficult concept for you progressives to grasp?

[FaninAma]

i'm with you there, but before i started cutting there, i'd be looking at FSAs, 401k, mortgages, etc...

cutting spending in areas where it wouldn't cripple people or take food out of their mouth

So the "poor" are entitled to all the benefits they recieve that they didn't pay for?

Even the single mother who is having her 5th and 6th kid on Medicaid? And please don't tell me that doesn't happen often. You know what I do for a living.

[yermom]

why should someone with a job good enough to get benefits have their retirement or health care subsidized while someone making minimum wage that can't feed their families are having their subsidy cut?

[Soonerjeepman]

I'd bet that a lot of people have given no thought to just how much Uncle
Sam is in their live, even more, had no clue...

they do now...news said milk is going to jump up big due to congress NOT passing the dairy subsidy...;-)

[rock on sooner]

So I take it you subscribe to the "You didn't build that" philosophy.

I also take it that you feel the government has revenues that somehow don't come from the taxpayers. Can you be so kind as to reveal these other sources of revenue?

Here is a quick fact. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

The government doesn't subsidze anybody or anything. The taxpayers do. Jesus H. Christ Why is that such a difficult concept for you progressives to grasp?

All I wanted to do was to get people to stop and think about
just how involved in their every day lives the bundlers of taxpayer
funds really are. I don't subscribe to the "you didn't build that"
philosophy, although I recognize and understand the prez's overall
point. You see, part of my 40+ year retail career was a small
business owner (for 13 years), as well as store management,
both big box and smaller operations in five different states and
in EVERY case there were numbers of people who assisted along
the way.

So, thank you, FaninAma, for your "lesson", coming from one as
wise as you means something.

[diverdog]

I would rather call it what it is.....a subsidy. I am not commenting on the emotional aspect of the subsidies or whether they are a good or bad thing. Eventually the decision on who gets subsidies and how much they get will not be based on emotion but rather economic reality.

There is not enough money to be obtained from those earning more than $250,000 to even begin to make a dent in the deficit. Expenditures will have to be cut and I want the same people who were complicit in getting people dependent on the subsidies to also get the blame for cutting them.

That is an AGI of $250,000. I think if we could tax all income without exemptions we would make a dent in the deficit. Plus collect all taxes that are owed each year.

[diverdog]

So the "poor" are entitled to all the benefits they recieve that they didn't pay for?

Even the single mother who is having her 5th and 6th kid on Medicaid? And please don't tell me that doesn't happen often. You know what I do for a living.

I think that is the exception to the rule.

[FaninAma]

I think that is the exception to the rule.

Define exception. I have seen up to 7. I have seen up to 6 children all taken out of the home by DHS and the mother still having kids. How far does society's responsibility extend in covering for the poor personal choices of other people?

[FaninAma]

That is an AGI of $250,000. I think if we could tax all income without exemptions we would make a dent in the deficit. Plus collect all taxes that are owed each year.

I would agree with you if it weren't politicians we were talking about. Without significant expenditure reductions and future spending restrictions put in place the deficit will not be fixed.

I am 100% certain the deficit problem will not be solved by politicians. It will be solved by the laws of economics which means this country will eventually declare bankruptcy and go through the turmoil that accompanies that.