the pass/fumble/shovel/whatever play debacle

[EatLeadCommie]

On the fumble that was ruled an incomplete forward pass after replay, I have a few questions.

1- Who was the "pass" intended for, and
2- Did he see the field the rest of the game?

I'm thinking it was Whaley and he didn't.

[SoonerofAlabama]

I think it was Finch.

[Peeb]

His follow-thru fully supported the shovel theory. Gotta say it sells better if he DOESN'T go chasing it as if it were a fumble after it hits the ground, however.

I was surprised they overturned the call on the field, but it has support on slow-mo. Was glad for Landry he got the benefit of the doubt.

[BoulderSooner79]

I think it really was supposed to be a shovel or a shovel fake, but LJ executed it so poorly we were really lucky to have it ruled a pass via replay. I also think it was for Finch.

[Pricetag]

It was a nifty play, but a bad call considering where we were on the field.

[BoulderSooner79]

It was a nifty play, but a bad call considering where we were on the field.

A shovel pass is called down there exactly because it is safer than a lateral or even a handoff because the ball is dead if you screw up.

[boomersooner28]

That looked like a high school play that a high school team was practicing for the first time.

[MikeGundy'sPaperboy]

It was a nifty play, but a bad call considering we were on the field.

Fixed

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Based on the reactions of the players after the play, the only person who didn't realize that Finch was going to get the ball was Roy Finch.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Based on the reactions of the players after the play, the only person who didn't realize that Finch was going to get the ball was Roy Finch.Concur.

[EatLeadCommie]

Did Finch see the field again after the play?

[goingoneight]

That's called a "tap pass." West Virginia runs it 2-3 times a game with Tavon Austin. That was not a fumble. It was an incomplete pass and clearly Finch didn't know it was coming to him. The QB catches a shotgun snap and flips a quick pass to the man in motion. He then play-fakes the fullback dive to try and bring a few more defenders in.

[cccasooner2]

I think it really was supposed to be a shovel or a shovel fake, but LJ executed it so poorly we were really lucky to have it ruled a pass via replay. I also think it was for Finch.


Well yeah, it could have been.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXd45MOjdP8

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Based on the reactions of the players after the play, the only person who didn't realize that Finch was going to get the ball was Roy Finch.

And people get all up in arms about why Finch isn't getting more opportunities. I think it was well answered last night.

But I hope, and pray, that some drooling scribe from the East Popcorn Picyune asks him why Finch didn't have more opportunities last night after his first quarter 10 yard burst.

It might be the red button that sends Stoops thermonuclear. Heh.

[tulsaoilerfan]

And people get all up in arms about why Finch isn't getting more opportunities. I think it was well answered last night.

But I hope, and pray, that some drooling scribe from the East Popcorn Picyune asks him why Finch didn't have more opportunities last night after his first quarter 10 yard burst.

It might be the red button that sends Stoops thermonuclear. Heh.

It was one mistake in what, the 4th quarter? Still doesn't explain why he didn't touch the ball after the first series of the game, does it?

[BoulderSooner79]

It was one mistake in what, the 4th quarter? Still doesn't explain why he didn't touch the ball after the first series of the game, does it?

Maybe not. But it will probably explain why he won't touch the ball next game.

[8timechamps]

It was one mistake in what, the 4th quarter? Still doesn't explain why he didn't touch the ball after the first series of the game, does it?

My take is that Finch is hanging on by a thread. He got his chance to play early, but there must have been something that kept him off the field before the pass/fumble. I don't know if he ever came back between his first touch and the pass/fumble, maybe he did and missed on something? I'm disappointed in Finch. He is an amazing talent, with the ability to change a game, but apparently he doesn't want to put in the work to be that guy for this team.

[goingoneight]

Per Merv Johnson:
Roy Finch isn't playing running back much for the same reason Taylor McNamara isn't getting many passes thrown his way. The staff isn't hating on them. They're just not getting it completely. We saw this for three years with Quentin Chaney. It doesn't matter how awesome he looks on one play if they don't feel like he can do it full time. You don't play a guy without confidence for the same reason you don't go for it on fourth down everytime. It's a gamble that will not work in your favor.

[cyclonesooner]

What I can't believe is that everyone is railing on Finch here instead of the fact that it was a ridiculous, risky, moronic play call in poor filed position at a time in the game where things weren't going well at all. Sure, Finch is at fault if he bothched the assignment, but the risk of running that play was a terrible decision.

[Breadburner]

Jones didn't even release it until finch was past him.....

[BoulderSooner79]

What I can't believe is that everyone is railing on Finch here instead of the fact that it was a ridiculous, risky, moronic play call in poor filed position at a time in the game where things weren't going well at all. Sure, Finch is at fault if he bothched the assignment, but the risk of running that play was a terrible decision.

It's not a risky play for the exact reason it was ruled an incomplete pass - that is by design. Josh must have felt KSU would be vulnerable to that play for some reason. But any play has risks if the execution is poor including a QB sneak or a simple handoff. As someone else pointed out, that play looked like it was done by a highschool them that had not even practiced it. And it wasn't just 1 guy that whiffed. LJ has to react to the situation and just take off and run himself if the back is not there just like QBs are taught to do on a missed handoff. Or at least make sure it is clearly an incomplete pass from the refs point of view. Having to go to replay showed how poorly it was run.

[Statalyzer]

Gotta say it sells better if he DOESN'T go chasing it as if it were a fumble after it hits the ground, however.

When there's any doubt, you always fall on the ball just in case.

[goingoneight]

Jones didn't even release it until finch was past him.....

That's called timing. The only way that play works is if the guy crosses just after the ball is snapped to the QB. Finch overran it. You toss the incomplete pass or fall on the ball for a loss.

Seriously, everybody. I'm not making this up. Youtube WVU's Orange Bowl. They run that play all the time. We actually ran it with Finch LAST YEAR... but I can't remember which game it was now. I think it was the A&M game.

[85sooners]

Damn

[General Applewhite]

I have been watching football for a long, long time. I have never seen a QB, at any level, chase after an incomplete pass like it was a fumble.....until this play.

[SoonerLB]

I call a mental error on Landry for even attempting it, Finch was already past him, was he supposed to catch it behind his back? Landry should have tucked the ball and faced the music, that ball could have gone right into the arms of one of KSU's linemen since they were already in the backfield. Lucky it was a pass and called that way, but from that point on the field, it was a stupidly dumb call in my book!

[cleller]

What I can't believe is that everyone is railing on Finch here instead of the fact that it was a ridiculous, risky, moronic play call in poor filed position at a time in the game where things weren't going well at all. Sure, Finch is at fault if he bothched the assignment, but the risk of running that play was a terrible decision.

With great risk comes great reward, grasshoppah.


The other side of the coin: great risk with poor field position can get you called nasty names.

[GameWarden]

Jones didn't even release it until finch was past him.....

Yeah that was clearly a bad decision on Landry's part but you can't ignore the fact that Finch never even looked for the ball. I've heard so much positive about Finch coming out of High School, it makes me wonder if maybe he's started partying a lot in college??? I've heard they have a lot of party's at those big universities. Of course we never did that at the small college that I attended.

[PrideMom]

You would think since Huepel was so.o.o.. good with the shovel pass that it would be a standard play, but we have not seen it in a long time, now we know why.

[sooneron]

I have been watching football for a long, long time. I have never seen a QB, at any level, chase after an incomplete pass like it was a fumble.....until this play.

Really? I'm pretty sure that players are taught to ALWAYS go after a lose ball, especially in the backfield. Even with replay, you never know how a play will be called by the refs. We know a lot about that. Stupid ****ing whorn.

[tator]

Per Merv Johnson:
Roy Finch isn't playing running back much for the same reason Taylor McNamara isn't getting many passes thrown his way. The staff isn't hating on them. They're just not getting it completely. We saw this for three years with Quentin Chaney. It doesn't matter how awesome he looks on one play if they don't feel like he can do it full time. You don't play a guy without confidence for the same reason you don't go for it on fourth down everytime. It's a gamble that will not work in your favor.

I know of a very important position that we put on the field every offensive play and haven't had confidence in him for 3 years now.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

It was one mistake in what, the 4th quarter? Still doesn't explain why he didn't touch the ball after the first series of the game, does it?

It absolutely does. If he is making those sorts of blunders over and over in practice, he should consider himself lucky that he even had his number called a couple of times Sat. night.

Why don't people get that? If he can't do it in practice... if he puts the brick between his ears on display over and over in practice... he ain't gonna get the job done when the lights are on.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

Besides, he is being given an opportunity to make a difference by being on the kick return team where maybe he doesn't have to do anything but put his athletic talents on display if he gets his hands on the ball.

[Soonerjeepman]

it ISN'T Jone's fault...how dare you! he IS the starting QB, a 4 yr starter, 35+ game experiences....
;-)

[General Applewhite]

Really? I'm pretty sure that players are taught to ALWAYS go after a lose ball, especially in the backfield. Even with replay, you never know how a play will be called by the refs. We know a lot about that. Stupid ****ing whorn.

An incomplete pass is never a loose ball. You can watch every other pass play this season and you will never see Landry chase after an incomplete pass except for that play. Ergo, he knew it wasn't an incomplete pass - get it?

[BoulderSooner79]

An incomplete pass is never a loose ball. You can watch every other pass play this season and you will never see Landry chase after an incomplete pass except for that play. Ergo, he knew it wasn't an incomplete pass - get it?

Not true. LJ knew a tap pass like that could be mis-interpreted by the ref - especially given how poorly it was executed. And he certainly knew how poorly it was executed. But I agree he would have been better off acting confident that it was incomplete had he been thinking quickly.

And you do see players chase after incompletions all the time. On swing passes that are very close to being a lateral is one case. But I see it on shovel passes too. The defenders jump on it of course, but I see offense guys go after it too and they know the play. I think it's just been drilled so deep when a ball hits the ground you jump on it. But I agree the QB shouldn't.

[sooneron]

THIS^ Get it?

[Soonerus]

An incomplete pass is never a loose ball. You can watch every other pass play this season and you will never see Landry chase after an incomplete pass except for that play. Ergo, he knew it wasn't an incomplete pass - get it?

It was an incomplete pass, did you not hear the official ruling...

[cjames317]

Can we call this play "Aloha, Mr. Hand"?

[goingoneight]

I have been watching football for a long, long time. I have never seen a QB, at any level, chase after an incomplete pass like it was a fumble.....until this play.

You've obviously never seen a scramble to pick up an incomplete shovel pass then. Because I see it at least once every Saturday.

[goingoneight]

An incomplete pass is never a loose ball. You can watch every other pass play this season and you will never see Landry chase after an incomplete pass except for that play. Ergo, he knew it wasn't an incomplete pass - get it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uDaboo-ZyA

This is what OU tried to run with Finch. They ran it a few times the last two years as well. They ran it with Broyles as well as with Finch before. It's nothing new. It was just overran by Finch.

[8timechamps]

An incomplete pass is never a loose ball. You can watch every other pass play this season and you will never see Landry chase after an incomplete pass except for that play. Ergo, he knew it wasn't an incomplete pass - get it?

You couldn't be more wrong. That play provides three options, tap pass to the slot crossing, a hand-off to the back, or a QB keep. Two of the three options are run, but the reason he had the ball out in the fist place was to pass (which the replay pretty clearly showed). I'm guessing you've never played football, because anytime a ball hits the turf behind the LOS players are coached to jump on the ball if no whistle is blown. Millard knew it wasn't a fumble, yet he still reacted the same as LJ. Because he's been coached that way.

Maybe you should re-think posting on a football message board.

[cvsooner]

Really? I'm pretty sure that players are taught to ALWAYS go after a lose ball, especially in the backfield. Even with replay, you never know how a play will be called by the refs. We know a lot about that. Stupid ****ing whorn. Anybody remember Texas 2006? The fact that Thompson and AD didn't go after what was ruled a lateral though it was more likely a forward pass probably cost us the game...or sure contributed to a hole we couldn't climb out of.

[EatLeadCommie]

Anybody remember Texas 2006? The fact that Thompson and AD didn't go after what was ruled a lateral though it was more likely a forward pass probably cost us the game...or sure contributed to a hole we couldn't climb out of.

Exactly what I was gonna say. It didn't necessarily cost us because we were already losing, but it put the game out of reach.

And the ball was clearly a forward pass, even on replay. Another screw job by the BXII refs, of which there were quite a few in that couple of years.

[cjames317]

So players must subject themselves to the scrum to recover every incomplete pass behind the LOS (God only knows what kinds of injuries can happen in that pile) in order to protect the team from officials' mistakes?

[FaninAma]

Not true. LJ knew a tap pass like that could be mis-interpreted by the ref - especially given how poorly it was executed. And he certainly knew how poorly it was executed. But I agree he would have been better off acting confident that it was incomplete had he been thinking quickly.

And you do see players chase after incompletions all the time. On swing passes that are very close to being a lateral is one case. But I see it on shovel passes too. The defenders jump on it of course, but I see offense guys go after it too and they know the play. I think it's just been drilled so deep when a ball hits the ground you jump on it. But I agree the QB shouldn't.

Somewhere in the above post is the key to why LJ doesn't make good decisions. I will allow the individual reader to figure out which statement(actually which 5 word phrase) drills home that point.

[goingoneight]

Landry wasn't exactly great against KSU, but it's already very clear that Finch messed up on that play. Bob even called Finch out by saying Finch "knew as soon as the play fell dead that it was supposed to come to him." also called it a "routine play we use Roy's speed for."
I think people are trying to use this as more ammo to fire the QB. But fact is Bell runs that very same play and I KNOW the haters would "see" it differently if BB was the guy who took that snap.

[One4OU]

Landry wasn't exactly great against KSU, but it's already very clear that Finch messed up on that play. Bob even called Finch out by saying Finch "knew as soon as the play fell dead that it was supposed to come to him." also called it a "routine play we use Roy's speed for."
I think people are trying to use this as more ammo to fire the QB. But fact is Bell runs that very same play and I KNOW the haters would "see" it differently if BB was the guy who took that snap.

That may be the case but you have to be smart enough to know it was a busted play when Finch was already pass the point if no return.

There is more fault at the call in general, Stoops should have called out the OC. There are better ways to utilize Finchs speed based on where the ball is. Stupid call.

As for routine play...Im not sure that is accurate either considering Finch hasnt played much.

[BoulderSooner79]

I still don't get why people claim that was a bad play call. If the OC thinks the D is gambling that the offense will play it conservative between the tackles and the play gets the corner with a guy like Finch, it could be a huge play. And if it is fouled up, it's just an incomplete pass - not much worse than a run up the middle for 1-2 yards. But any play must be executed well to succeed and I would question calling Finch's number if it is indeed true he is not trusted to execute. But I have no problem with the play call in general.