Native Americans

[MamaMia]

I live in a county with a very large Native American population, many of whom are single mothers, or grandparents raising children. Over the 14 years we have lived here I have met hundreds of them. I know very few Native American women who have a real job, one that involves paying taxes. These are able bodied individuals. Its been that way no matter how bad or how good the economy is. This has always puzzled me. How can they afford not to work?

[okie52]

Which county?

[marfacowboy]

I suppose you're still seeing the effects of the 19th century genocide we perpetrated on these people. Like blacks, they had limited opportunities in this country until recent years. Blacks in the American South were still under Jim Crow in the 1960's, so they're now just approaching perhaps a third generation that is operating under equal protection of the law. And in places like Crystal Springs, MS, it's not much different from 1962.
With the American Indian, we destroyed their culture and tried to force them into our culture. The schools and conditions on most reservations are horrid. Would you want your child to grow up on a reservation? Ever been to Pine Ridge? To a reservation in New Mexico? It's a third world situation.
Incidentally, today is the anniversary of Chief Joseph's passing. He slumped over in a quick death while sitting by a fire in his tipi on the Colville reservation in northern Washington. He was 64. The reservation doctor, noticing Joseph's deepening despair over the years, thought sorrow had killed him. He died 99 years and one day after the Nez Perce met their first whites, Lewis and Clark, at Weippe Prairie.

[jk the sooner fan]

genocide?

[okie52]

Most of new Mexico is a ****hole...not just the reservations. Indians have had great opportunities for a Long time in the US....much longer than blacks. In fact, I'm enjoying my free healthcare as a Chickasaw.

[Ton Loc]

Which county?

I'm guessing Osage or Creek.

[okie52]

I'm guessing Osage or Creek.

I was guessing plains Indians like caddo or west of there. Anadarko really use to have a bunch of Indian alcoholics.

[olevetonahill]

I suppose you're still seeing the effects of the 19th century genocide we perpetrated on these people. Like blacks, they had limited opportunities in this country until recent years. Blacks in the American South were still under Jim Crow in the 1960's, so they're now just approaching perhaps a third generation that is operating under equal protection of the law. And in places like Crystal Springs, MS, it's not much different from 1962.
With the American Indian, we destroyed their culture and tried to force them into our culture. The schools and conditions on most reservations are horrid. Would you want your child to grow up on a reservation? Ever been to Pine Ridge? To a reservation in New Mexico? It's a third world situation.
Incidentally, today is the anniversary of Chief Joseph's passing. He slumped over in a quick death while sitting by a fire in his tipi on the Colville reservation in northern Washington. He was 64. The reservation doctor, noticing Joseph's deepening despair over the years, thought sorrow had killed him. He died 99 years and one day after the Nez Perce met their first whites, Lewis and Clark, at Weippe Prairie.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/15116558.jpg

[olevetonahill]

I was guessing plains Indians like caddo or west of there. Anadarko really use to have a bunch of Indian alcoholics.

She Lives in Woodward. And Ole Marfa just caint help himself can he? She asked a simple question and he goes off on the History of the Indian
Hey Marfa I'll Have you know WEDint do a dayum thing to any of em Nor did WE Do a dayum thing to keep the Blacks down , Go peddle your white guilt somewhere else.

[Midtowner]

Sure you didn't personally do anything, but bad things have happened to keep both groups down. If your family has been in the South for a significant period of time, if you're white, it's more likely than not that your ancestors were members of the KKK and other groups which had a sound policy of racial discrimination. A group of people which has been historically oppressed doesn't just bounce back overnight. As for Native Americans, some tribes are definitely run better than others. In many cases now you have a huge advantage in life if you're born a blond-haired blue-eyed white fella with a BIA card.

The question is whether we who enjoy racial privilege today as a result of our ancestors should be forced to give something up in order to rectify some historical grievance. Well, if we want to do that, as a person of Irish descent, I want the English to pay me reparations for their cruelty and for enslaving my people. As having Dutch ancestry, how 'bout the French and the current residents of the former Holy Roman Empire pay me some reparations for their colonial designs? And those SOBs in Italy have a lot to answer for in the excesses of the Roman Empire. Also, Mongolia should just deed itself over to China and sell its people into Chinese slavery for the wrongs perpetrated by the Khans.

Where does it stop?

[olevetonahill]

I live in a county with a very large Native American population, many of whom are single mothers, or grandparents raising children. Over the 14 years we have lived here I have met hundreds of them. I know very few Native American women who have a real job, one that involves paying taxes. These are able bodied individuals. Its been that way no matter how bad or how good the economy is. This has always puzzled me. How can they afford not to work?


Sure you didn't personally do anything, but bad things have happened to keep both groups down. If your family has been in the South for a significant period of time, if you're white, it's more likely than not that your ancestors were members of the KKK and other groups which had a sound policy of racial discrimination. A group of people which has been historically oppressed doesn't just bounce back overnight. As for Native Americans, some tribes are definitely run better than others. In many cases now you have a huge advantage in life if you're born a blond-haired blue-eyed white fella with a BIA card.

The question is whether we who enjoy racial privilege today as a result of our ancestors should be forced to give something up in order to rectify some historical grievance. Well, if we want to do that, as a person of Irish descent, I want the English to pay me reparations for their cruelty and for enslaving my people. As having Dutch ancestry, how 'bout the French and the current residents of the former Holy Roman Empire pay me some reparations for their colonial designs? And those SOBs in Italy have a lot to answer for in the excesses of the Roman Empire. Also, Mongolia should just deed itself over to China and sell its people into Chinese slavery for the wrongs perpetrated by the Khans.

Where does it stop?

No you Long winded Wind bag
The Question Was, Well look I quoted Mom and even Highlighted it for Yall
Sheesh

[marfacowboy]

Sure you didn't personally do anything, but bad things have happened to keep both groups down. If your family has been in the South for a significant period of time, if you're white, it's more likely than not that your ancestors were members of the KKK and other groups which had a sound policy of racial discrimination. A group of people which has been historically oppressed doesn't just bounce back overnight. As for Native Americans, some tribes are definitely run better than others. In many cases now you have a huge advantage in life if you're born a blond-haired blue-eyed white fella with a BIA card.

The question is whether we who enjoy racial privilege today as a result of our ancestors should be forced to give something up in order to rectify some historical grievance. Well, if we want to do that, as a person of Irish descent, I want the English to pay me reparations for their cruelty and for enslaving my people. As having Dutch ancestry, how 'bout the French and the current residents of the former Holy Roman Empire pay me some reparations for their colonial designs? And those SOBs in Italy have a lot to answer for in the excesses of the Roman Empire. Also, Mongolia should just deed itself over to China and sell its people into Chinese slavery for the wrongs perpetrated by the Khans.

Where does it stop?

I think it just takes time to fix itself and more people being willing to help.
Able bodied? What about able minded? Being educated? In this country, you have to have a good education, college level probably, to find stability. Otherwise, you'll just be another "able bodied" person greeting people at your local Mal-Wart or flipping burgers. What kind of life is that?
Maybe they can work at the casinos, but that's certainly not a life I'd want. Sounds awful.

[Mississippi Sooner]

Wow

[XingTheRubicon]

From what I understand, you don't get paid for excuses.


What happened to your great, great grandparents has nothing to do with 2012. Ask the governor of South Carolina.


The poor from a hundred years ago, would spit in the face of the poor today...and they would gleefully kneecap the white-guilt delusional idiots that enable them.

[jk the sooner fan]

did i just read that you can't make it past the greeting station at wal-mart without a college degree?

is that what i just read?

[olevetonahill]

did i just read that you can't make it past the greeting station at wal-mart without a college degree?

is that what i just read?

LOL, I was waitin to see if some else jumped on that, I feel like Im pickin on the retarded kid in Line for lunch :tickled_pink:

[jk the sooner fan]

i'm still waiting on an explanation for the "genocide" comment

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Most of new Mexico is a ****hole...not just the reservations. Indians have had great opportunities for a Long time in the US....much longer than blacks. In fact, I'm enjoying my free healthcare as a Chickasaw.

Do you know Overton James?

[olevetonahill]

i'm still waiting on an explanation for the "genocide" comment

I think he went over to SouthCarolinaSooners House for Breakfast
http://onlineadvertisingexecutive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Bowl-of-Stupid-C11749983.jpeg

[okie52]

She Lives in Woodward. And Ole Marfa just caint help himself can he? She asked a simple question and he goes off on the History of the Indian
Hey Marfa I'll Have you know WEDint do a dayum thing to any of em Nor did WE Do a dayum thing to keep the Blacks down , Go peddle your white guilt somewhere else.

Heh heh.

[Mississippi Sooner]

As a non-college grad, I'd have to say my view from Walmart is pretty good.

[LiveLaughLove]

This is absurd. May I speak as one of the trodden down? pffffttt!!!!!

I have family, full blood, in the Madill area that are no good drunken bums. Why? Because they choose to be. I haven't once heard any of them say, "gee that genocide stuff sure screwed me up from over a hundred years ago".

I have heard them say, "I think I'll go buy some whiskey, you coming?".

My grandfather, full blood, was on that same road. He did two things I an eternally grateful, he got the heck out out Madill, and after a rage one night where he scared his kids badly, he quit drinking.

He was never a rich man monetarily but he had set the groundwork for his family, all of whom lived good middle class lives. None of which had to do with you or your genocide.

Its called personal responsibility. Some have it, some don't.

Some of my Madill family are successful in oil and gas related jobs. Not all of them are useless drunks.

Blacks are no different, they can succeed if they choose too. You're slavery from two hundred years ago has zilch to do with today.

[jk the sooner fan]

for the record, there was NO genocide.....period. there were a lot of indians killed - and they killed a lot of white men

but there was no genocide.....i know the guilty white apologists have tried to write it into history books - some successfully - but it's not accurate - at all

[olevetonahill]

for the record, there was NO genocide.....period. there were a lot of indians killed - and they killed a lot of white men

but there was no genocide.....i know the guilty white apologists have tried to write it into history books - some successfully - but it's not accurate - at all

But Marfa is College educated and Knows stuff

[jk the sooner fan]

But Marfa is College educated and Knows stuff

he's no wal-mart greeter - thats for certain!

[olevetonahill]

he's no wal-mart greeter - thats for certain!

Prolly dont have the personality for it

[okie52]

This is absurd. May I speak as one of the trodden down? pffffttt!!!!!

I have family, full blood, in the Madill area that are no good drunken bums. Why? Because they choose to be. I haven't once heard any of them say, "gee that genocide stuff sure screwed me up from over a hundred years ago".

I have heard them say, "I think I'll go buy some whiskey, you coming?".

My grandfather, full blood, was on that same road. He did two things I an eternally grateful, he got the heck out out Madill, and after a rage one night where he scared his kids badly, he quit drinking.

He was never a rich man monetarily but he had set the groundwork for his family, all of whom lived good middle class lives. None of which had to do with you or your genocide.

Its called personal responsibility. Some have it, some don't.

Some of my Madill family are successful in oil and gas related jobs. Not all of them are useless drunks.

Blacks are no different, they can succeed if they choose too. You're slavery from two hundred years ago has zilch to do with today.

Choctaws?

[KantoSooner]

To answer Mama's original question, I'd have to know more about who exactly you're talking about. However, I worked in an 'Indian' law firm in Norman in the 1980's (the very same one that started Indian gaming nationally...and they tried to get me involved in it...and I told them that there was no effing way that Oklahoma could support more than "3 or 4 casino's, max..." But, through tears of regret, I digress). We had a fair number of indigent clients from a number of tribes. Here's how they live:

1. Assistance programs. Government, tribe, church.
2. Family.
3. Low standard of living.
4. Zero savings.
5. Limited hunting and gathering. People in rural Okiestan don't all hunt and fish for entertainment.
6. Sometimes, and only some people, low level crime. Pot, moonshine, transport of same, etc.
7. Off the grid casual labor.

Not a good life, but you can stay alive. It tends to be self-perpetuating, though some can make a heroic effort and break out, more can't. It's hard to get a decent job in the 21st century economy when you're physically dirty and smell like old animal fat and wood smoke.

[TitoMorelli]

for the record, there was NO genocide.....period. there were a lot of indians killed - and they killed a lot of white men

but there was no genocide.....i know the guilty white apologists have tried to write it into history books - some successfully - but it's not accurate - at all

I can't believe you never heard about the death camps at Ft. Sill and Ft. Supply where they herded millions into ovens and gas chambers. Millions, I tell you.

[olevetonahill]

Them sonsabitches, Why We orta all take up a donation er sompun

[MountainOkie]

I can't believe you never heard about the death camps at Ft. Sill and Ft. Supply where they herded millions into ovens and gas chambers. Millions, I tell you.

Yes,yes there were a lot of those found on the prairie in the olden days. It was positively full of ovens and gas chambers. They just sprung up out of the ground when it rained, of course we've ruined the ecology since then so it no longer occurs. (Distinguished professor type says while smoking a pipe in corduroy jacket with leather patches on the elbows)

[olevetonahill]

Marfa says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vs9rpA6bcE

[LiveLaughLove]

Choctaws?
Chickasaws. my grandad had a chewed off ear lobe and a big scar on his jaw line from fighting choctaws.

[badger]

Indian or not, it's tough for a single mom to be a working mom. Oklahoma is a state (and there are probably many like it) where there is a fine line between making too much money to be able to have subsidized child care, and making too little money to afford regular priced child care. As a result, you're forcing mommy and child to go on food stamps, WIC, welfare, etc.

With a lot of family help, I could probably avoid WIC/food stamps/welfare if I were to suddenly become a single mom to baby badger. But, no matter how Republican I've been my entire life, I wouldn't be too proud to not do it if it was best for my child.

The harsh reality of single mommyhood is that there are government programs to be able to afford college on loans and grants, but there aren't similar programs for child care, which is about as (if not more) expensive than college. I'm talking at least $750 a month for a DHS-inspected facility, which is probably partially (if not heavily) subsidized by the wonderful church behind it. And then you have your mortgage, and then you have your food, your utilities, your never ending gasoline prices to fret about.

So, don't judge the poor single mommys that don't have a "real job." They're probably doing the best they can for their child(ren).

[olevetonahill]

Badg. You an Marfa been talkin in Private?
I understand where ya coming from , But your response has absolutely NOTHIN to do with Moms question

[jk the sooner fan]

Badg. You an Marfa been talkin in Private?
I understand where ya coming from , But your response has absolutely NOTHIN to do with Moms question

maybe ST got her password ;)

[olevetonahill]

maybe ST got her password ;)

http://mediocremum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/waterspitting2.jpg

[KantoSooner]

Just a note on the 'genocide' thingie; I think Charles Mann got it about right when he said that something over 90% of the native inhabitants of the Americas died as a result of European contact. The vast majority of these died from disease and you can't really affix guilt to people (Europeans) who were spreading disease when they had no knowledge of how disease was spread and were not doing it intentionally.
But, from the native point of view the fact that literally everyone around you was dying as an unintended consequence was certainly cold comfort.
And it wasn't that the Europeans were especially nice to the survivors. Indians proved to be terrible slaves, though that ate up a certain quantum of the population while the idea was proven to fail. And the native technique of land management was unrecognizeable to the Europeans, who then proceeded to seize the land for 'productive' use, leaving the natives without food or livlihoods. And there were the vacillations between 'extermination', 'isolation' and 'assimilation' as national indian policy.

So, formal 'genocide'? No, not really; it was more of a program of vigorously asserting white 'rights' to take what they wanted without much reference to the implications for native Americans.

and the results were pretty much the same as an organized genocide.

It really wouldn't cost us too much to have a little respect and flexibility in dealing with the remnant populations.

Honoring treaties might be a nice place to start.

[okie52]

Chickasaws. my grandad had a chewed off ear lobe and a big scar on his jaw line from fighting choctaws.

Those dam Choctaws...never could accept the Chickasaws were the better tribe.

[MountainOkie]

NM

[olevetonahill]

Im Hacksaw, what I get?

[okie52]

Im Hacksaw, what I get?

A blade.

[olevetonahill]

A blade.

Heh

[Midtowner]

What happened to your great, great grandparents has nothing to do with 2012. Ask the governor of South Carolina.

That's just stupid.

Mitt Romney wouldn't have been a successful venture capitalist had he been born to a crack whore and sired by her pimp who he never met because he was in prison for most of his childhood.

Poverty is a cycle, it takes extraordinary effort to break it. Students whose parents have at least a bachelor's degree, go to college at a rate of 82 percent. Compare that with students whose parents didn't finish high school --36%. Is it an excuse for each individual? Nope. Is it a pretty good cause vs. effect statistic which can predict outcomes? Yep.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001126.pdf

Add to that the fact that racial minorities are still discriminated against in the workplace, paid less for the same work and are less likely to be promoted within their organizations, you've got a recipe for keeping generational poverty firmly in place. That's only compounded by the fact that we tend to staff our urban schools with the absolute worst teachers and then turn around and severely underfund those schools, is it any wonder?

What happened to your great grandparents effects your grandparents. Your grandparents raised your parents who raised you. To say that 3 generations is totally irrelevant is just silly. You're talking about entire communities and ethnic groups. Of course it's relevant.

[Soonerjeepman]

I teach in a urban area (sure most of you "know" that with my other postings)...mainly black..but other ethnic groups..even us whities.

I see everyday the lack of drive by parents to get THEIR kids to be better than themselves and NOT live on the government. Education is certainly a great way to make yourself better but without DRIVE it don't mean ****.

My girlfriend works with 2/3 yr olds with disabilities, usually poor...has 18 yr old mom, 2 yr old CP girl, lives with grdma, going to nursing school...THOSE are the folks I'm talking about..she has drive.
(the side story is dad had an affair while married to this girl, got herpes, didn't tell her, she got it, baby got it, baby got meningitis, turned into CP..dad left mom..)

[Soonerjeepman]

That's just stupid.

Mitt Romney wouldn't have been a successful venture capitalist had he been born to a crack whore and sired by her pimp who he never met because he was in prison for most of his childhood.

Poverty is a cycle, it takes extraordinary effort to break it. Students whose parents have at least a bachelor's degree, go to college at a rate of 82 percent. Compare that with students whose parents didn't finish high school --36%. Is it an excuse for each individual? Nope. Is it a pretty good cause vs. effect statistic which can predict outcomes? Yep.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001126.pdf

Add to that the fact that racial minorities are still discriminated against in the workplace, paid less for the same work and are less likely to be promoted within their organizations, you've got a recipe for keeping generational poverty firmly in place. That's only compounded by the fact that we tend to staff our urban schools with the absolute worst teachers and then turn around and severely underfund those schools, is it any wonder?

What happened to your great grandparents effects your grandparents. Your grandparents raised your parents who raised you. To say that 3 generations is totally irrelevant is just silly. You're talking about entire communities and ethnic groups. Of course it's relevant.

yes and no..the responsibility of breaking the cycle is on them. Lord knows we preach and teach that all the time here in school.

[badger]

Badg. You an Marfa been talkin in Private?
I understand where ya coming from , But your response has absolutely NOTHIN to do with Moms question

I thought it did. Let me read it again...


I live in a county with a very large Native American population, many of whom are single mothers, or grandparents raising children. Over the 14 years we have lived here I have met hundreds of them. I know very few Native American women who have a real job, one that involves paying taxes. These are able bodied individuals. Its been that way no matter how bad or how good the economy is. This has always puzzled me. How can they afford not to work?

My answer, in a nutshell, was that no matter how able bodied you are, native or not, single mothers mostly cannot afford to work while caring for a young child. Unsubsidized child care, on top of all other costs, is just too expensive.

[marfacowboy]

for the record, there was NO genocide.....period. there were a lot of indians killed - and they killed a lot of white men

but there was no genocide.....i know the guilty white apologists have tried to write it into history books - some successfully - but it's not accurate - at all

A lot of historians and anthropologists would take issue with that.
"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group." We did just that. We deliberately attempted to systematically destroy them. We attempted to destroy their culture, their spiritual life and killed a bunch of them. Many were executed for no reason. Many were allowed to die and starve on their way to places like Bosque Redondo. Kit Carson waged total war on the Navajo, burning orchards and destroying crops. There were calls for extermination, both inside and outside government.
I spent my a good portion of my undergrad work in this field and post undergrad years. I know this topic as well as any, and I respectfully but strongly disagree with you.

[Midtowner]

He was never a rich man monetarily but he had set the groundwork for his family, all of whom lived good middle class lives. None of which had to do with you or your genocide.


Good for him. Not everyone is capable of just stopping drinking. My grandfather was a drunk SOB who was killed in a bar fight in Kingston. That didn't effect me because my grandmother divorced him and married a well-to-do lawyer/political type. Had she stayed married to drunk SOB, I'd have turned out different most likely. Had your grandfather stayed a drunk, you would have turned out differently. Native American alcoholism rates are not unrelated to the forced relocation of tribal peoples.

And to say there was no Native American genocide is just absurd. Kind of on par with denying the holocaust. Just one solitary campaign, that of Col. Chivington of the Third Calvary would be an act of genocide all on its own.

[Midtowner]

yes and no..the responsibility of breaking the cycle is on them. Lord knows we preach and teach that all the time here in school.

Individually yes, it's on them. As a larger group though, government policy is going to make statistically measurable differences.

[marfacowboy]

did i just read that you can't make it past the greeting station at wal-mart without a college degree?

is that what i just read?

Not everyone, but your chances are not good. Do you think the economic opportunities are as promising for the uneducated? Not in this economy. There was a time when people like my father-in-law, a home builder with a high school education, could make a good living. Some still find a way. But you know as well as I do that it is much more competitive, and if you aren't well educated, the chances are good you'll end up in a dead end job making minimum wage.
You get the point.

[StoopTroup]

http://mediocremum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/waterspitting2.jpg

Reading some of your responses to people who are just having a discussion are pretty funny and sad to watch. Evidently the snipes I get that you say I start...well it's just another example of your brazen attempts to prove you can toss **** at people but in turn...can't take it. Seeing you laugh at a JK snipe knowing what great friends you are...I do hope that someday you'll understand that I don't hate that you are a back-stabbing POS that has an ego problem so huge that you need a monument called the Hideout to crawl back to when the folks who tire of your BS just come here to post instead of the website that will die the day they finally toss dirt or the State burns your remains with our tax dollars.

[pphilfran]

Not everyone, but your chances are not good. Do you think the economic opportunities are as promising for the uneducated? Not in this economy. There was a time when people like my father-in-law, a home builder with a high school education, could make a good living. Some still find a way. But you know as well as I do that it is much more competitive, and if you aren't well educated, the chances are good you'll end up in a dead end job making minimum wage.
You get the point.

If everyone had a Masters degree would it make a significant difference?

IMO you must have an education or a skill developed in trade school...

[StoopTroup]

Mama...

Im sure you don't understand the ways of the different Tribes. Hell I'm not sure that to this day they even do a very good job of getting along with each other's Tribes and the differences of even their own cultures. Many Tribes were at War with each other even before The White Man's presence in North America.

I think quite a bit of my families Irish Culture and many Indian Women also are proud of their own Culture. There is plenty of negative things to lock onto with everyone but there is some positive things that come from growing up and one day returning to your roots. Many folks can learn to live a very simple life without the trappings of this World and sometimes many return to such lives after giving up on maybe a life like yours.

Honestly...I think you could have used a sit down with Wilma Mankiller when she was alive. Maybe you knew her for all I know but something says to me that you didn't.
I think maybe if you would just get to know a few that are Leaders like Wilma was....you might get some of your answers and maybe might even learn that what they choose in life isn't near as important as the path you choose.

[marfacowboy]

If everyone had a Masters degree would it make a significant difference?

IMO you must have an education or a skill developed in trade school...

No, a Master's doesn't guarantee a thing. And we've discussed the trade school deal...you know I'm in agreement on that. Unfortunately, that's not the society in which we live. Today, we herd everyone as if they're on a conveyor belt, onward, tumbling and stumbling toward a diploma (whether they mastered basic algebra or not) and then on to college, where so many are ill prepared.
Trade schools might be a solid solution to the American Indian issues. They need skills that are marketable, and they need hope.

[jk the sooner fan]

Reading some of your responses to people who are just having a discussion are pretty funny and sad to watch. Evidently the snipes I get that you say I start...well it's just another example of your brazen attempts to prove you can toss **** at people but in turn...can't take it. Seeing you laugh at a JK snipe knowing what great friends you are...I do hope that someday you'll understand that I don't hate that you are a back-stabbing POS that has an ego problem so huge that you need a monument called the Hideout to crawl back to when the folks who tire of your BS just come here to post instead of the website that will die the day they finally toss dirt or the State burns your remains with our tax dollars.


oh for jeebus sakes you are a drama queen

howard and i dont have to like each other on a message board to laugh at each other if we say something funny....do you honestly not allow yourself to laugh at something just because of who said it?

you're a sad man

[marfacowboy]

So, formal 'genocide'? No, not really; it was more of a program of vigorously asserting white 'rights' to take what they wanted without much reference to the implications for native Americans.

and the results were pretty much the same as an organized genocide.



Read Shadows At Dawn, A Borderlands Massacre and The Violence of History, by Karl Jacoby.
Also check out Elliot West's works, including The Last Indian War and The Contested Plains. These are both painstakingly, carefully researched, peer reviewed works that are highly respected throughout The Western History Association and academe.

[pphilfran]

No, a Master's doesn't guarantee a thing. And we've discussed the trade school deal...you know I'm in agreement on that. Unfortunately, that's not the society in which we live. Today, we herd everyone as if they're on a conveyor belt, onward, tumbling and stumbling toward a diploma (whether they mastered basic algebra or not) and then on to college, where so many are ill prepared.
Trade schools might be a solid solution to the American Indian issues. They need skills that are marketable, and they need hope.

I agree...once a kid hits the 7th or 8th grade they should be given a choice...future standard schooling or moving into a trade school in an expanded Vo Tech situation....there are a whole chit pot full of kids that would thrive in a trade school setting instead of being dead weight in our current school environment...

[marfacowboy]

Individually yes, it's on them. As a larger group though, government policy is going to make statistically measurable differences.

agreed

[marfacowboy]

I agree...once a kid hits the 7th or 8th grade they should be given a choice...future standard schooling or moving into a trade school in an expanded Vo Tech situation....there are a whole chit pot full of kids that would thrive in a trade school setting instead of being dead weight in our current school environment...

100% agreement...and there's nothing that says you can't go back to another path at some point.

[StoopTroup]

Trade schools might be a solid solution to the American Indian issues. They need skills that are marketable, and they need hope.

I know that an education is important to you but many of these folks running Tribes are well educated. Many of them are doing pretty well financially and many of them are helping their people. Some are buying back land one acre at a time. Others are involved in making sure their investments into Casinos keep on going and that Laws aren't being passed to let just any business or Corporation try and push them out of the Casino Business. Right now many of them have a lock on how many and where the next Casinos pop up. I'm sure the Casino Business will change as time goes on and as long as they have the legal right to own and operate them and others don't...greed will become an issue just like it did when many of them owned land with oil on it.

Im thinking that it will be much more difficult to try and take this last lucretive Venture they have a lock on from them this time but hey....as long as we all continue to tell them they need education and a good trade school they will flock to them....ROTF.

[StoopTroup]

oh for jeebus sakes you are a drama queen

howard and i dont have to like each other on a message board to laugh at each other if we say something funny....do you honestly not allow yourself to laugh at something just because of who said it?

you're a sad man

Yeah I know. Blah blah blah. Say it a million times, go through a million keyboards I'm sure someday everyone will believe you.

Drama Queen. ROTF. That's rich coming from you. I just spit my morning coffee.

[jk the sooner fan]

Yeah I know. Blah blah blah. Say it a million times, go through a million keyboards I'm sure someday everyone will believe you.

Drama Queen. ROTF. That's rich coming from you. I just spit my morning coffee.

HAHAHAHA - :)

[StoopTroup]

HAHAHAHA - :)

See...much better. I don't really have a problem with you JK. One day maybe Vet will figure some stuff out. I doubt it but there's always a chance.

[jk the sooner fan]

the issues between you and vet are between you two......i wont lose sleep if either of you figure anything out or not

i'm aware of private comments vet has made about me - and i'm sure he's aware of some of my own venting towards each other

in the grand scheme of things - none of it means anything - we're just two guys on the internet

lighten up......

[KantoSooner]

Read Shadows At Dawn, A Borderlands Massacre and The Violence of History, by Karl Jacoby.
Also check out Elliot West's works, including The Last Indian War and The Contested Plains. These are both painstakingly, carefully researched, peer reviewed works that are highly respected throughout The Western History Association and academe.

Marfa, I think we're somewhere between disagreeing over a meaningless distinction or agreeing loudly.

First, my point was that the vast majority of post-Colombian native mortality was caused by germs and viruses, not by people. And that the majority of this took place before disease vectors were very well understood, if at all. By 1530 or so, the cat was out of the bag, so to speak, and native civilizations were pretty much doomed. And, Lord Jeffrey's late 18th century smallpox blankets notwithstanding, disease was not knowingly used as a tool of policy. Either at all or only in limited circumstances, long after the issue was moot.

Even if the Europeans had consisted of nothing but Clara Barton clones, by the time there was any policy at all, the result was set.

That the Europeans were, by turns mildly agnostic towards natives and, at other times aggressively murderous, did not change the ultimate outcome. So I tend to discount the import of the various policies toward native populations. The damage had already been done. Though, I will say that appointing that thoroughly modern military mind, W.T. Sherman to manage the indian wars in the west was inspried. If ever there was a man who could cut to the linear conclusion, "Hello! No buffalo, no indians! QED' it was Bill.

I guess I need a little more mens rea and understanding of the mechanisms before I'll go for the full on 'genocide' label.

[Curly Bill]

Reading some of your responses to people who are just having a discussion are pretty funny and sad to watch. Evidently the snipes I get that you say I start...well it's just another example of your brazen attempts to prove you can toss **** at people but in turn...can't take it. Seeing you laugh at a JK snipe knowing what great friends you are...I do hope that someday you'll understand that I don't hate that you are a back-stabbing POS that has an ego problem so huge that you need a monument called the Hideout to crawl back to when the folks who tire of your BS just come here to post instead of the website that will die the day they finally toss dirt or the State burns your remains with our tax dollars.

Have you not "medicated" yet today? You seem angry.

[jk the sooner fan]

there is virtually no proof that the american govt handed out "smallpox blankets" to native americans...i dont know if thats what you're referencing.......there is a letter between two soldiers where the topic was discussed - aside from that letter......nothing

[marfacowboy]

Marfa, I think we're somewhere between disagreeing over a meaningless distinction or agreeing loudly.



The post was more of a "by the way, you might find these books interesting."
It's still debated amongst scholars. Everyone has to reach their own conclusion, but the evidence points to a systemic, widespread and coordinated program (across many levels, both public and private) of extermination; minimally, elimination of American Indians has a self-governing, self-determining socio-cultural entity.
And there was certainly support for Indians. Yancey Cravat may have been a fictional creation in what is perhaps the most famous book ever written about Oklahoma, but his character was based on an amalgam of people sympathetic to the plight of American Indians.

[marfacowboy]

there is virtually no proof that the american govt handed out "smallpox blankets" to native americans...i dont know if thats what you're referencing.......there is a letter between two soldiers where the topic was discussed - aside from that letter......nothing

I never said a thing about blankets.
There is an interesting story that shows how the myth gained some mileage. In the summer of 1763, Colonel Jeffrey Amherst, commanding British forces in the Ohio Valley stated to one of his officers, "Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes?"
Beyond that episode, however, there's little evidence to back up recurring claims of germ warfare. In fact, there's really not one credible case.
The plague was in fact the expansionist values of whites. They viewed Indians as something beneath them, dismissing any possibility they could live along side whites in their own systems and via their own ways. To destroy them, they struck at their "bedrock identity," or as West says, "how they lived so as to the give the world meaning."

[jk the sooner fan]

i never said you said a thing about blankets - i was responding to Kanto

whether you agree with the intent or method - it's a fact that as the white man moved west and further encroached on the indian lands - there was an effort to convert the indians to christianity - there was an effort to modernize them.......an effort to negotiate peace treaties

you dont typically do any of that when you're intentionally wiping out an entire race/ethnicity of people

the circumstances for the american indian back then were not good at all - at times they were tragic...but to say that the government set on this course of systematic genocide is simply not supported by facts

the old adage "war is hell" comes to mind. the "white man" was not at all without fault or misdeeds. it was simply a clash of two very different civilizations and one prevailed over the other. i think thats been happening since the dawn of time

[marfacowboy]

i never said you said a thing about blankets - i was responding to Kanto

whether you agree with the intent or method - it's a fact that as the white man moved west and further encroached on the indian lands - there was an effort to convert the indians to christianity - there was an effort to modernize them.......an effort to negotiate peace treaties

you dont typically do any of that when you're intentionally wiping out an entire race/ethnicity of people


Genocide isn't just physical death. Genocide is destruction of a people, be it culturally or physically. Your definition is too reductive.

[MountainOkie]

Genocide isn't just physical death. Genocide is destruction of a people, be it culturally or physically. Your definition is too reductive.

What a load.

[jk the sooner fan]

and your omission of a general intent by the American government is convenient to your argument

[jk the sooner fan]

genocide is extermination - not destruction

let's not re-write the definition to suit our argument

look at the origin of the word < Greek géno ( s ) race + -cide

"cide".....homoCIDE (death is involved), suiCIDE (again death)..i can provide more examples

[marfacowboy]

genocide is extermination - not destruction

let's not re-write the definition to suit our argument

look at the origin of the word < Greek géno ( s ) race + -cide

"cide".....homoCIDE (death is involved), suiCIDE (again death)..i can provide more examples

Talk about reductive. When we go to Merriam-Webster to define complex highly debated sociological terms, I reckon the discussion is over. At least go to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide).
All of the major eight circumstances are present, especially the eight one, denial.

[marfacowboy]

and your omission of a general intent by the American government is convenient to your argument

There clearly was intent. How many examples do you want me to list? How many quotes by government leaders?

[jk the sooner fan]

list to your hearts content - just make sure you include the context in which they were made

[KantoSooner]

And thanks, Marfa, for the references.

To me, the key point on the genocide issue is that the US government did not have ANY consistent policy to natives. Going back to the Pilgrims, we vacillated between peaceful coexistence, martial alliance (we went to war with some indians against other indians), attempted assimiliation, a separate-but-equal thingie where we either walled them off to do their own thing, or, converted them to our ways ... and then walled them off, full on absorption and, or course, good old extermination.

We are, by the way, still experimenting: it was only in the 1970's when the current push to encourage native sovereignty and thus the running of local afffairs by the tribe itself was put into practice.

Without any consistent policy, I can't call it genocide. Sorry to belabor the point, but there have been real genocidal regimes in recent memory and they truly do deserve more opprobrium than the majority of white immigrants or their leaders.

[StoopTroup]

the issues between you and vet are between you two......i wont lose sleep if either of you figure anything out or not

i'm aware of private comments vet has made about me - and i'm sure he's aware of some of my own venting towards each other

in the grand scheme of things - none of it means anything - we're just two guys on the internet

lighten up......

STFU Dip ****.

[jk the sooner fan]

STFU Dip ****.

now now, be nice

[StoopTroup]

genocide is extermination - not destruction

let's not re-write the definition to suit our argument

look at the origin of the word < Greek géno ( s ) race + -cide

"cide".....homoCIDE (death is involved), suiCIDE (again death)..i can provide more examples

I drank some Apple Cider.

[jk the sooner fan]

And thanks, Marfa, for the references.

To me, the key point on the genocide issue is that the US government did not have ANY consistent policy to natives. Going back to the Pilgrims, we vacillated between peaceful coexistence, martial alliance (we went to war with some indians against other indians), attempted assimiliation, a separate-but-equal thingie where we either walled them off to do their own thing, or, converted them to our ways ... and then walled them off, full on absorption and, or course, good old extermination.

We are, by the way, still experimenting: it was only in the 1970's when the current push to encourage native sovereignty and thus the running of local afffairs by the tribe itself was put into practice.

Without any consistent policy, I can't call it genocide. Sorry to belabor the point, but there have been real genocidal regimes in recent memory and they truly do deserve more opprobrium than the majority of white immigrants or their leaders.

sorta what i tried to say a few posts ago - but much more eloquently - well said!

[marfacowboy]

And thanks, Marfa, for the references.

To me, the key point on the genocide issue is that the US government did not have ANY consistent policy to natives. Going back to the Pilgrims, we vacillated between peaceful coexistence, martial alliance (we went to war with some indians against other indians), attempted assimiliation, a separate-but-equal thingie where we either walled them off to do their own thing, or, converted them to our ways ... and then walled them off, full on absorption and, or course, good old extermination.

We are, by the way, still experimenting: it was only in the 1970's when the current push to encourage native sovereignty and thus the running of local afffairs by the tribe itself was put into practice.

Without any consistent policy, I can't call it genocide. Sorry to belabor the point, but there have been real genocidal regimes in recent memory and they truly do deserve more opprobrium than the majority of white immigrants or their leaders.

There's actually no evidence of anyone high in authority in the United States government advocating what we understand today to be genocide. However, there are plenty of comments by Congressmen, military officials and private citizens that make clear what was actually happening. And then we have the actual events, plus Grant's consistent policy of Christianization, which is indicative of an established program of cultural attack. When you put it all together, whether it had the official imprimatur of the U.S. government or not, the result was the same.
The United States was very careful in how it carried such things. In the case of the Camp Grant Massacre, the killers were six Americans, forty-eight Mexicans, and ninety-two O'odham, but all under the care and approval of the U.S. military. Sand Creek was carried out by Colorado militia, The infamous Bloodless Third, under that butcher Chivington.
But of course to the Indians, all whites were the same. When whites showed up, the result was the same. They didn't distinguish so much between state militia and federals, although they probably thought the federals were more likely to treat them well.

[Soonerjeepman]

ya know sometimes people back then just didn't know better....

[olevetonahill]

Reading some of your responses to people who are just having a discussion are pretty funny and sad to watch. Evidently the snipes I get that you say I start...well it's just another example of your brazen attempts to prove you can toss **** at people but in turn...can't take it. Seeing you laugh at a JK snipe knowing what great friends you are...I do hope that someday you'll understand that I don't hate that you are a back-stabbing POS that has an ego problem so huge that you need a monument called the Hideout to crawl back to when the folks who tire of your BS just come here to post instead of the website that will die the day they finally toss dirt or the State burns your remains with our tax dollars.
\
Take a Pill, Oh wait

[jk the sooner fan]

can i laugh at that?

permission?

mods?

[olevetonahill]

oh for jeebus sakes you are a drama queen

howard and i dont have to like each other on a message board to laugh at each other if we say something funny....do you honestly not allow yourself to laugh at something just because of who said it?

you're a sad man

You keep this shat up and Im start liking ya :congratulatory:

[StoopTroup]

\
Take a Pill, Oh wait

What are you taking? I want to try and avoid it if I ever have a Doctor prescribe a medication in the future.

[StoopTroup]

You keep this shat up and Im start liking ya :congratulatory:

Turn the lights on ya cheap bastard. You are slobbering on his Johnson.

[pphilfran]

I doubt if any of his Prescriptions would be of any Aid to you or your long Term health...they tend to be User specific Meds...

[XingTheRubicon]

http://imageshack.us/a/img269/2713/cryingindiang.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/cryingindiang.jpg/)

[olevetonahill]

What are you taking? I want to try and avoid it if I ever have a Doctor prescribe a medication in the future.


Turn the lights on ya cheap bastard. You are slobbering on his Johnson.

Boy yer really zingin me today, I may not post here again





















For maybe 30 seconds
Can I retire then Unretire like you did?

[pphilfran]

Boy yer really zingin me today, I may not post here again





















For maybe 30 seconds
Can I retire then Unretire like you did?

Give up Vet...he has your Number...

[olevetonahill]

What are you taking? I want to try and avoid it if I ever have a Doctor prescribe a medication in the future.

Dont worry, Seems the Docs have you pretty insulated from Anything that makes ya normal

[olevetonahill]

Turn the lights on ya cheap bastard. You are slobbering on his Johnson.

Its 2:29 PM Dont need any lights You still spittin Yer Morning Coffee?

[jk the sooner fan]

You keep this shat up and Im start liking ya :congratulatory:

nooooooooooooooo

;)

[StoopTroup]

Give up Vet...he has your Number...

I dub him Leroy Lizard II.

[StoopTroup]

nooooooooooooooo

;)

Oh phu.....


ROTF

[Mississippi Sooner]

http://imageshack.us/a/img269/2713/cryingindiang.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/cryingindiang.jpg/)

Ha! The world's most famous Sicilian Indian.

[StoopTroup]

That bastage that threw trash at his feet is sweeping the parking lot in Siloam Springs now.

[olevetonahill]

I dub him Leroy Lizard II.

Dayum Ya got me with another Zinger there KC

[8timechamps]

To address Mama's question, like anyone, it comes down to personal responsibility. It's harder for some folks than others, but not impossible. Like others have said, poverty is a self perpetuating cycle. If you are born into it, it's just another hurdle in your way. Some people accept that challenge, and overcome it, others take the easy way and fall back into it.

I've often wondered if the white population in this country were that of say, the black population, what would the demographics look like. Would the percentage of people that are on government assistance be equal to what we see now? Given the history that every ethnic group in this country has, it's impossible to answer. But, I still wonder.

I also want to address badgers comment; I have no pity for single moms that struggle. I was raised by a single mom. I never knew she struggled until I asked her one day (when I was about 19). The first thing she said to me was "I never looked for a handout, I was a healthy young woman and chose to have children". I have remembered those words my whole life. It's no secret that deadbeat dads are a dime-a-dozen, if you chose to have children with someone, you accept that reality.

The bottom line in both cases; if people chose the easy route in life (doing nothing to better their situation), they ultimately reap what they sew.

[OU_Sooners75]

My answer, in a nutshell, was that no matter how able bodied you are, native or not, single mothers mostly cannot afford to work while caring for a young child. Unsubsidized child care, on top of all other costs, is just too expensive.

So what you're saying is that a single parent is unable to better themselves because of a child?

Seriously?

Well, that is flat out ignorant and wrong.

The single parent CHOOSES to let a child be the excuse as to why they are struggling. When people stop making excuses and/or enabling single parents to take the "oh its tough because I'm with child" approach, then they would be out to better theirselves.

God knows I've had a very tough go at life. I am a single parent. But afrter a few years of it, I have set goals. I am going to obtain those goal come hell or high water. I do not live on welfare. I struggle paycheck to paycheck. And starting Monday ill be working two jobs to make it better. Make it possible to get back into school. Its tough. Has been for what seems like an eternity. But I'm going to prove to my children, with hard work and dedication, you can get out of the rut...and only if you want too!

So please, don't give me this excuse that single moms have it tough because of a child because its only an excuse!

[OU_Sooners75]

Btw, I'm a single dad!

[LiveLaughLove]

Mid, sorry about your dad. My Uncle was the drunk in our immediate family. Oh, the white Uncle that married in. He tried to quit numerous times. He never could. He died from liver disease in his early 60's.

Now my Granddad, my Pop, never, and I mean never said bad words about anybody. But he told me once that my Uncle was the weakest willed man he ever knew, and that if he loved his family more than he loved himself, he would have quit.

Coming from my Pop that was tantamount to saying he hated him. My Pop drank every day from the age of 13 to around 36. He quit in one day, because it tore his heart out that he had scared his kids so badly that the next day they wouldnt hug him goodbye as he was going to the barbershop.

People have to love their families more than themselves to get up out of the gutter financially too. Some do. Some don't. I don't feel sorry for those that don't one bit, and I don't blame society.

It is pure dee old patronizing to hear people say Indians and Blacks can't make it because of the things that happened centuries now, ago. I know that I can speak for most of my family, those that have "made it" and those that have not when I say, we don't want it.

Marfa, I have no idea why you would have taken that stuff in college. Are you part Indian? If you aren't, it strikes me as patronizing BS. If you are, then you are looking in the wrong places for what Indians need or want. We dang sure don't want a bunch of guilt riddled whites trying to figure us out. What happened happened. It happened because my ancestors were too busy living a communal lifestyle and not bettering themselves technologically. They were content to use clubs, and tomahawks and bows, and too busy fighting each other. Sidenote: This Dances With Wolves idea of how we were so harmonious with nature is pure crap. We simply weren't advanced enough to wipe out the buffalo ourselves. I get this idea that whites think we went around the village before a hunt with a pencil and paper, "Now how many buffalo for you Mr WindBow?" ""1.3", "And for you Mr DeerLoping?" ".7", "and you Mr GrazingElk?" "2.2", "Ok Chief, we need exactly 7.4 buffalo this hunt, not a single one more now, you here". What crap, we ran whole herds over cliffs. We let them rot by the droves. There's nothing mystical about Indians. We're just people, the same pettiness, the same jealousies, the same greed, and the same love.

Those historians you say would disagree. You left one little tidbit out. They are 90+% LIBERAL historians, that matters in the way they see the world. I am forever grateful to the white man for bringing Christ to America and giving my people the chance for salvation. I don't care what any of you think about that statement, so save it. I know where my Pop is, and I know I will see him again, and I can't wait. I know without the whites coming here, that wouldn't be the case.

My Pop was as Indian as you can get. I never once heard him say anything about feeling cheated, feeling victimized, or anything else. He did turn down the chance to play baseball for the Cleveland Indians system because he wouldn't sign a contract, but that was when he was young and didn't know any whites to speak of. So he didn't trust the scout.

So do your social engineering on the blacks, it's working soooo good for them. That's sarcasm, btw. Just go spend your money at Riverwind, WinStar, and Newcastle, and you'll be helping my people out just fine.

As to why don't those Moms get jobs, because they don't love their kids more than themselves. Same answer as everyone else.

[SunnySooner]

To answer Mama's original question, I'd have to know more about who exactly you're talking about. However, I worked in an 'Indian' law firm in Norman in the 1980's (the very same one that started Indian gaming nationally...and they tried to get me involved in it...and I told them that there was no effing way that Oklahoma could support more than "3 or 4 casino's, max..." But, through tears of regret, I digress). We had a fair number of indigent clients from a number of tribes. Here's how they live:

1. Assistance programs. Government, tribe, church.
2. Family.
3. Low standard of living.
4. Zero savings.
5. Limited hunting and gathering. People in rural Okiestan don't all hunt and fish for entertainment.
6. Sometimes, and only some people, low level crime. Pot, moonshine, transport of same, etc.
7. Off the grid casual labor.

Not a good life, but you can stay alive. It tends to be self-perpetuating, though some can make a heroic effort and break out, more can't. It's hard to get a decent job in the 21st century economy when you're physically dirty and smell like old animal fat and wood smoke.

Yep, this was my answer as well, after growing up in small town Sequoyah county. In middle school, we were about 10% or 20% full-bloods in my class. By sophomore year, when we turned 16, most of them would show up Tuesday to Thursday. Fridays were for drankin', Mondays were for hangovers. By the time we graduated, there were just a handful (almost all girls), though some of those were among the brightest of an extremely bright class (2 National Merit Scholars, almost $500k in total academic scholly offers, a record at the time).

It's a culture of entitlements, living off of what you get for free instead of having a crappy job, and LOTS of alcohol. I had hoped it was getting better with all the casino money, but maybe not. I wish they could funnel those profits into full rides at private schools of choice, and then another full ride at any college you're accepted in to. Free laptops/tablets to any CDIB-carrying student, free innnerwebz, free smartphones with service, etc.--anything that might give them a tiny edge or access to things they might not have had otherwise. Where the hell does all of the money go, anyway, it ain't like they're paying taxes?!?!??!

[LiveLaughLove]

Yep, this was my answer as well, after growing up in small town Sequoyah county. In middle school, we were about 10% or 20% full-bloods in my class. By sophomore year, when we turned 16, most of them would show up Tuesday to Thursday. Fridays were for drankin', Mondays were for hangovers. By the time we graduated, there were just a handful (almost all girls), though some of those were among the brightest of an extremely bright class (2 National Merit Scholars, almost $500k in total academic scholly offers, a record at the time).

It's a culture of entitlements, living off of what you get for free instead of having a crappy job, and LOTS of alcohol. I had hoped it was getting better with all the casino money, but maybe not. I wish they could funnel those profits into full rides at private schools of choice, and then another full ride at any college you're accepted in to. Free laptops/tablets to any CDIB-carrying student, free innnerwebz, free smartphones with service, etc.--anything that might give them a tiny edge or access to things they might not have had otherwise. Where the hell does all of the money go, anyway, it ain't like they're paying taxes?!?!??!
The Oklahoma tribes don't divvy the money to the tribal members. They keep it in the tribe and provide more services. I don't like that system. The tribal insiders have gotten rich, very rich off of it. The rest of the tribe, not so much.

Of course, having more money only brings out what you are already even more. So if you are an alcoholic, it will just make you a bigger one. There's a scene in Cat Ballou where Cat had wired $50 to Kid Shaleen (Lee Marvin). Shaleen was a once great gunfighter but now a drunk. Her dad scolded her and said "$50! You sent that man $50?! You coulda killed him sending him that much money!" Same applies to most tribal members that are already raging alcoholics.

Still, I would like to see the money (the dividends) divvied up, because I feel it should belong to all of us. We as tribal members should have all gotten a stake or share in the tribal enterprises. Not just the privileged few in power.

[Whet]

Indians! You can't go into a 7-11, or Marathon station without running into them behind the counters!

[okie52]

Featherheads not ragheads

[Turd_Ferguson]

Casino, not Slurpee.

[jk the sooner fan]

i dont think any race or ethnic group has any monopoly on "having their **** together"....or having it figured out as a collective group

[Breadburner]

Well...You all know what Jesus said to the Indians before he left....."Don't do anything until I get back"....!!

[FaninAma]

My question is if you are less than 1/16th CDIB(certificate degree if Indian blood) are you really native American? If you are 1/32nd that means you are 31/32nds non-native American.

If you gave extra benefits for Martians we would discover that there were a lot of unsuspected Martians living among us.

[diverdog]

And thanks, Marfa, for the references.

To me, the key point on the genocide issue is that the US government did not have ANY consistent policy to natives. Going back to the Pilgrims, we vacillated between peaceful coexistence, martial alliance (we went to war with some indians against other indians), attempted assimiliation, a separate-but-equal thingie where we either walled them off to do their own thing, or, converted them to our ways ... and then walled them off, full on absorption and, or course, good old extermination.

We are, by the way, still experimenting: it was only in the 1970's when the current push to encourage native sovereignty and thus the running of local afffairs by the tribe itself was put into practice.

Without any consistent policy, I can't call it genocide. Sorry to belabor the point, but there have been real genocidal regimes in recent memory and they truly do deserve more opprobrium than the majority of white immigrants or their leaders.

On the whole you might be right but we did comment genocide against certain tribes. The Apache come to mind. There were 500 Nations when the white man landed. How many are there now?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I wonder what Fauxcahontas Warren has to say about this thread?

[cleller]

Could it be something as simple as getting money, housing, and food stamps from the government is easy. Working and planning for yourself is not as easy?

You know, keep it simple, etc.

[KantoSooner]

Diver, Compare and contrast:

1. "We will kill you all, ahahaahahahahahahahahahaha!" (and then does it)

vs.

2. "Hey, just staying the weekend." (cough cough)
"Oh, wow, you're looking a bit under the weather."
"Damn, lots of spare land around here. Mind if we set up shop?"
"Y'know, we could really use some extra space, why don't we move you to a completely different part of the continent where you can be happy far away from us?"
"**** you, die primitive scum."
cough, cough. "You know, you really don't look too good."
"We think it would be a great idea if your kids learned our ways. They could be like bridges of love between us. And we'd get brownie points for converting them to our religion."
"Oh, really, you and who's army? Die red scum."
"Your land? But you weren't doing anything with it! C'mon man, farming, it's the wave of the future."
Cough Cough.
Aimless atrocity.
etc.
Repeat for 350 years.

There's a, to me, necessary prior intent in 'genocide' that just wasn't there in Euro/indian interaction. But I'll give you the Apaches (though, seriously, even the neighboring tribes were none too sorry to see them go.)

[Midtowner]

There's a, to me, necessary prior intent in 'genocide' that just wasn't there in Euro/indian interaction. But I'll give you the Apaches (though, seriously, even the neighboring tribes were none too sorry to see them go.)

How about characterizing it as a collection of genocides, forced relocations and generally imperialistic, paternalistic and domineering treatment? I do think it was genocide and I don't think that an intent over 350 or so years is really necessary when in each specific small instance, the intent was to kill or remove native peoples from their homelands.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that because I think anyone needs to be compensated or anything like that. That'd be a hell of a nasty slippery slope. Should the citizens of England compensate those in Scotland, Wales and Ireland for treating them like cattle for hundreds of years? Should the Chinese be compensated for the damages caused by the Mongols? Why don't we just acknowledge that most of human history is about the strong beating up on the weak simply because they could? It's only recently that nations developed a sort of conscience about imperialism. Up until the middle part of the 20th century, it was still all the rage.

[KantoSooner]

Meh, go with it if you will. We're quibbling over small semantic distinctions at this point. I will second your general take on history, however.

One need only look at the historical tragedy of being a neighbor to the Germans. Bad juju since 5,000 BCE.

[LiveLaughLove]

You know, now that I think about it, I think whites skills feel guilty.

We want our land back. In our case that means we have the reigning national champions and current number ones as our football team.

In lieu of the land, I still have kids that need college paid for. So all of you white guilters just send scholarship checks to: white guilt absolved, and sign them "sucker", and I'll make sure to absolve you of all white guilt at our next powwow.

Thanks in advance.

[jk the sooner fan]

You know, now that I think about it, I think whites skills feel guilty.

We want our land back. In our case that means we have the reigning national champions and current number ones as our football team.

In lieu of the land, I still have kids that need college paid for. So all of you white guilters just send scholarship checks to: white guilt absolved, and sign them "sucker", and I'll make sure to absolve you of all white guilt at our next powwow.

Thanks in advance.

ok, well i need to spend some time at your casino to work on my cash flow

gimme a few days

[KABOOKIE]

As someone who is 1/512th Native American, I am offended by this post.

[Midtowner]

You know, now that I think about it, I think whites skills feel guilty.

Nah... if I had my druthers, I'd just have Congress disavow any treaty with a tribe and dare them to declare war on us if they didn't like it.

[LiveLaughLove]

Nah... if I had my druthers, I'd just have Congress disavow any treaty with a tribe and dare them to declare war on us if they didn't like it.

That would cause waaaayyyy too much angst among the guilty whites. They would never allow it.

Why psychiatrists on both coasts would be overflowing with business. Valium usage would go through the roof. Hair that has fallen off of little guilt riddled white heads would be flowing like rivers.

[KantoSooner]

But it is one of the most ironically salient points: Had whites simply said, from the beginning, 'We got the big guns, we're taking your stuff,' none of the treaty issues would have come to pass. But no, they wanted to take the stuff AND feel righteous about it.

And now Texans have to pay good money for watered whisky while they get fleeced at casinos.

If nothing else, this is pretty good evidence that a God exists.

A cruel God, fond of perverse humor. Sort of a Loki-type deal. But a God nonetheless.

[MountainOkie]

But it is one of the most ironically salient points: Had whites simply said, from the beginning, 'We got the big guns, we're taking your stuff,' none of the treaty issues would have come to pass. But no, they wanted to take the stuff AND feel righteous about it.

And now Texans have to pay good money for watered whisky while they get fleeced at casinos.

If nothing else, this is pretty good evidence that a God exists.

A cruel God, fond of perverse humor. Sort of a Loki-type deal. But a God nonetheless.


Wow. Way to offend a lot of people.

Mix some nice sacrilege in there too.

I also noted you attribute fault and punishment to innocent people.

A joke?

[LiveLaughLove]

My question is if you are less than 1/16th CDIB(certificate degree if Indian blood) are you really native American? If you are 1/32nd that means you are 31/32nds non-native American.

If you gave extra benefits for Martians we would discover that there were a lot of unsuspected Martians living among us.

Good question. When I was growing up you had to be 1/4. Then it moved to 1/8 then 1/16, now it's any amount.

True story. Went to Ada to the hospital about a year ago. The two girls doing my paperwork were full bleeds. They asked for my CDIB. I gave it to one. She looked at it and said "wow look at this" and handed it to the other girl.

She also said wow. I was embarrassed thinking they were making fun of me only being 1/4. I said, "I know I'm just a quarter". She said, "we haven't seen someone with this much Indian in a long time."

She said usually they are 1/132nd or more. She said when I left her office just look around the waiting room.

It was full of mostly hispanics, then came blacks, then really white whites, then the Indians (very few).

So to answer your question, I can't. I have a bias for sure. Full bloods would say full blood I imagine. I would say somewhere around 1/8 or 1/16. But that would cover me and my kids and grandkids, so my bias.

I would think when you hit triple digits it really shouldn't count.

[cleller]

Good question. When I was growing up you had to be 1/4. Then it moved to 1/8 then 1/16, now it's any amount.

True story. Went to Ada to the hospital about a year ago. The two girls doing my paperwork were full bleeds. They asked for my CDIB. I gave it to one. She looked at it and said "wow look at this" and handed it to the other girl.

She also said wow. I was embarrassed thinking they were making fun of me only being 1/4. I said, "I know I'm just a quarter". She said, "we haven't seen someone with this much Indian in a long time."

She said usually they are 1/132nd or more. She said when I left her office just look around the waiting room.

It was full of mostly hispanics, then came blacks, then really white whites, then the Indians (very few).

So to answer your question, I can't. I have a bias for sure. Full bloods would say full blood I imagine. I would say somewhere around 1/8 or 1/16. But that would cover me and my kids and grandkids, so my bias.

I would think when you hit triple digits it really shouldn't count.

Amen. This has become ridiculous. I'm 1/16, and not on any rolls. I don't consider myself Indian, or think anyone else should. I don't want or expect anything. If you're not at least half, just forget it. Even the commercials the tribes run are full of non-Indian looking people.

There's still lots of Indian culture in some areas. The stuff around here is mostly hollow talk in the name of money.

[SicEmBaylor]

The only thing I know about the red savages is that they can't hold their liquor and they're damned good knife fighters.

[usmc-sooner]

I live in a county with a very large Native American population, many of whom are single mothers, or grandparents raising children. Over the 14 years we have lived here I have met hundreds of them. I know very few Native American women who have a real job, one that involves paying taxes. These are able bodied individuals. Its been that way no matter how bad or how good the economy is. This has always puzzled me. How can they afford not to work?

Woodward has a very low Indian population.

Maybe they live within their means. Not everyone is spending money they can't repay. Not everyone is constantly getting sued for not paying their bills. Maybe they have don't all have capital one cards.

What about Indians who have to carry a certain license, who get effed up and drive and lose their license to practice? What if they attempt to bribe folks?

How do you feel about Indians like that crazy Glen?

Soonerfans yall got duped by the cray

[olevetonahill]

The only thing I know about the red savages is that they can't hold their liquor and they're damned good knife fighters.

Which is why they lost, They kept showing up to the Gun fight with Nothin but knives

[LiveLaughLove]

The only thing I know about the red savages is that they can't hold their liquor and they're damned good knife fighters.

I know during the Red Earth Festival, the stores in El Reno can't keep rubbing alcohol on the shelves. That's some kind of harsh right there.

[LiveLaughLove]

Amen. This has become ridiculous. I'm 1/16, and not on any rolls. I don't consider myself Indian, or think anyone else should. I don't want or expect anything. If you're not at least half, just forget it. Even the commercials the tribes run are full of non-Indian looking people.

There's still lots of Indian culture in some areas. The stuff around here is mostly hollow talk in the name of money.

Don't know about half. I lived most of my life around my Pop. I'm 1/4, but I know and felt very much a part of my Indian heritage. Much more so, than the white side really. My Grandma was 1/2 German and 1/2 Irish, but she considered herself just as Chickasaw as any of us.

Still I wouldn't have a real problem with the demarcation being at half. Then I'd have to join the guilt riddled white side. ;P

[olevetonahill]

I dont have any Indian in me, But I have been in a few squaws

[okie52]

Good question. When I was growing up you had to be 1/4. Then it moved to 1/8 then 1/16, now it's any amount.

True story. Went to Ada to the hospital about a year ago. The two girls doing my paperwork were full bleeds. They asked for my CDIB. I gave it to one. She looked at it and said "wow look at this" and handed it to the other girl.

She also said wow. I was embarrassed thinking they were making fun of me only being 1/4. I said, "I know I'm just a quarter". She said, "we haven't seen someone with this much Indian in a long time."

She said usually they are 1/132nd or more. She said when I left her office just look around the waiting room.

It was full of mostly hispanics, then came blacks, then really white whites, then the Indians (very few).

So to answer your question, I can't. I have a bias for sure. Full bloods would say full blood I imagine. I would say somewhere around 1/8 or 1/16. But that would cover me and my kids and grandkids, so my bias.

I would think when you hit triple digits it really shouldn't count.


Heh, I'm 1/16 Chickasaw and my mom, kids, and grand kids all have full benefits. I have heard it rumored that they are talking about cutting off benefits at triple digits but nothing is really moving on that right now.

I deal with Chickasaws and Choctaws all of the time because I lease their property and I work with the BIA frequently. I really haven't used the benefits with the exception of getting glasses every 2 years but I plan on using it because of the basically free healthcare.

The BIA told me there were only about 1,000-1,100 full blood chickasaws now. A lot of them are in the Ada/Ardmore areas.

The chickasaws in Ada have a really nice hospital now and they are building more health service centers in Ardmore.

[okie52]

I dont have any Indian in me, But I have been in a few squaws

Heh, I'll bet there was liquor in them first.

[olevetonahill]

Heh, I'll bet there was liquor in them first.

:biggrin:

[BS-JE]

As if there was any doubt about that?

[soonercruiser]

I live in a county with a very large Native American population, many of whom are single mothers, or grandparents raising children. Over the 14 years we have lived here I have met hundreds of them. I know very few Native American women who have a real job, one that involves paying taxes. These are able bodied individuals. Its been that way no matter how bad or how good the economy is. This has always puzzled me. How can they afford not to work?

A PERECT EXAMPLE of the America Obummer wants to create!
An entitlement nation!