Israeli PM makes appeal to US voters

[AlboSooner]

I'm tired of us fighting Israel's wars. I'm starting to dislike the Israeli government by a lot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-diplomat-no-daylight-between-us-israel-on-stopping-iran-from-developing-nuclear-weapon/2012/09/16/daba8028-0001-11e2-bbf0-e33b4ee2f0e8_story.html

[diverdog]

I'm tired of us fighting Israel's wars. I'm starting to dislike the Israeli government by a lot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-diplomat-no-daylight-between-us-israel-on-stopping-iran-from-developing-nuclear-weapon/2012/09/16/daba8028-0001-11e2-bbf0-e33b4ee2f0e8_story.html

Plus one

[olevetonahill]

I happen to agree with him
What war are we fighting for Israel?

[Turd_Ferguson]

I'm tired of us fighting Israel's wars. I'm starting to dislike the Israeli government by a lot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-diplomat-no-daylight-between-us-israel-on-stopping-iran-from-developing-nuclear-weapon/2012/09/16/daba8028-0001-11e2-bbf0-e33b4ee2f0e8_story.html


Plus one

Who'd have thunk it?...

[OUinFLA]

I happen to agree with him
What war are we fighting for Israel?

this

[AlboSooner]

The US backing of tyrants in the ME has been as a result of their stance on Israel. We had no problem backing the Iranian Shah, Saddam, Mubarak, Gadaffi, and the Syrian guy, as long as they did nothing to attack Israel. This has cost the US, in what the CIA calls blow back. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_%28intelligence%29)

Iran is a direct threat to Israel, and not to the US. If Israel has an issue with Iran they need to grow a pair and go after it like big boys. They have been handed a superior military in the ME, plus they have nukes. They should not use the US to do their dirty work. Plus the treatment of Palestinian Christians by Israel is inhumane and horrific.

The prime minister of Israel has no bidness telling US voter whom to vote for. That is highly out of line for a FOREIGN head of state.

Because of Isarel's success PR campaign in the US, and through the rhetoric of its powerful lobby, many Americans have equated Israel's concerns with American concerns.


Scheuer has stated that the Mearsheimer and Walt paper The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy is essentially correct. Israel, according to Scheuer, has engaged in one of the most successful campaigns to influence public opinion in the United States ever conducted by a foreign government. Scheuer said to NPR that "They [Mearsheimer and Walt] should be credited for the courage they have had to actually present a paper on the subject. I hope they move on and do the Saudi lobby, which is probably more dangerous to the United States than the Israeli lobby."[30]

In Marching Toward Hell, Scheuer laments "the war in Iraq that was instigated by U.S. citizen Israel-firsters and their evangelical Christian allies".[31] He continues,

Because both U.S. political parties are wholly owned subsidiaries of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and the Israeli government, there is no large-scale U.S. military withdrawal from Iraq in the cards... If you doubt this, keep in mind the name Rahm Emanuel. Slated to be the president-elect's chief of staff, Mr. Emanuel has labored as a volunteer for AIPAC's various anti-U.S. causes, strove to ensure the defeat of anti-Iraq War Democratic congressional candidates in 2006, and in 1991, as a 32-year-old U.S. citizen, chose to serve with the Israeli Defense Forces rather than volunteer to fight for the United States in the war against Saddam's Iraq.[32]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer#Israel_and_the_Lobby

[olevetonahill]

I cant believe anyone in their right mind {Oh wait those 2 are Lefties ) could think its a good idea to let those crazy mother****ers Get Nukes .

[olevetonahill]

The US backing of tyrants in the ME has been as a result of their stance on Israel. We had no problem backing the Iranian Shah, Saddam, Mubarak, Gadaffi, and the Syrian guy, as long as they did nothing to attack Israel. This has cost the US, in what the CIA calls blow back.

Iran is a direct threat to Israel, and not to the US. If Israel has an issue with Iran they need to grow a pair and go after it like big boys. They have been handed a superior military in the ME, plus they have nukes. They should not use the US to do their dirty work. Plus the treatment of Palestinian Christians by Israel is inhumane and horrific.

The prime minister of Israel has no bidness telling US voter whom to vote for. That is highly out of line for a FOREIGN head of state.

So where in that ST fueled rant did you say which war we are fighting for Israel?
Where did He "TELL" us who to vote for? Looked like he asked IMHO

[diverdog]

I cant believe anyone in their right mind {Oh wait those 2 are Lefties ) could think its a good idea to let those crazy mother****ers Get Nukes .

Vet, aside from a full blown invasion, Iran will get nukes and no one can stop them. It is a pipe dream to think we can take out their facilities. We do not know where half of them are in the first place.

[olevetonahill]

Vet, aside from a full blown invasion, Iran will get nukes and no one can stop them. It is a pipe dream to think we can take out their facilities. We do not know where half of them are in the first place.

Yea ok. :bri:

[AlboSooner]

So where in that ST fueled rant did you say which war we are fighting for Israel?
Where did He "TELL" us who to vote for? Looked like he asked IMHO

Hey man I understand you won't change your position. Questions like where, when point to a debate that is not seeking truth, but rather to defeat the opposition. My objective is show that the US has suffered blow back for fighting wars that Israel should have fought. These wars may be full blown (Iraq) or CIA covert operations (Iran in the 1970's)

Netanyahu is a smart guy, and through innuendo he told the US public to vote for Romney.Those who have ears let them hear, say the Jews. His friction with Obama is evident that even Steve Wonder can see it, and since Obama won't back Israel in every scenario, Netanyahu wants Romney to be elected.

[olevetonahill]

Hey man I understand you won't change your position. Questions like where, when point to a debate that is not seeking truth, but rather to defeat the opposition. My objective is show that the US has suffered blow back for fighting wars that Israel should have fought. These wars may be full blown (Iraq) or CIA covert operations (Iran in the 1970's)

Netanyahu is a smart guy, and through innuendo he told the US public to vote for Romney. Let them hear those those have ears, say the Jews. His friction with Obama is evident for Steve Wonder to see, and since Obama won't back Israel in every scenario, Netanyahu wants Romney to be elected.

What a Concept , Im glad the US has never tried to influence any elections in this old world

Get a grip

[sappstuf]

The US backing of tyrants in the ME has been as a result of their stance on Israel. We had no problem backing the Iranian Shah, Saddam, Mubarak, Gadaffi, and the Syrian guy, as long as they did nothing to attack Israel. This has cost the US, in what the CIA calls blow back. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_%28intelligence%29)

Iran is a direct threat to Israel, and not to the US. If Israel has an issue with Iran they need to grow a pair and go after it like big boys. They have been handed a superior military in the ME, plus they have nukes. They should not use the US to do their dirty work. Plus the treatment of Palestinian Christians by Israel is inhumane and horrific.

The prime minister of Israel has no bidness telling US voter whom to vote for. That is highly out of line for a FOREIGN head of state.

Because of Isarel's success PR campaign in the US, and through the rhetoric of its powerful lobby, many Americans have equated Israel's concerns with American concerns.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer#Israel_and_the_Lobby

Your Wiki article seems to disprove your point.


Because both U.S. political parties are wholly owned subsidiaries of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and the Israeli government, there is no large-scale U.S. military withdrawal from Iraq in the cards... If you doubt this, keep in mind the name Rahm Emanuel.

We are out of Iraq in "large scale"....

[AlboSooner]

Your Wiki article seems to disprove your point.



We are out of Iraq in "large scale"....

Read the whole context, not just one point in which Michael Scheurer (ex CIA guy) might be wrong, as who can define what large scale is. Less than X, doesn't mean small scale.

The evidence is clear, I bring facts, some bring ad-hominem attacks. I couldn't care less about GOP vs Dems, I just want our country to prosper, but some don't see an issue that every ten years we are bombing somebody in the ME. Sometime it's good to mind our own bidness, and see that China is prospering without bombing a ME country every decade.

Like I said, those who have ears let them hear

We'd be fools to think that Muslim countries would get so upset over an amateur video that they would burn our embassies. Sure, the nimrod throwing the rock may protest because of the video, but the guy who told him to go out there is pissed at the US for other reasons.

[AlboSooner]

What a Concept , Im glad the US has never tried to influence any elections in this old world

Get a grip

Oh so you now agree that Netanyahu is trying to influence US elections. Well, this is a step in the right direction. I doubt you'd appreciate his "sincere" input if he supported Obama.

[sappstuf]

Read the whole context, not just one point in which Michael Scheurer (ex CIA guy) might be wrong, as who can define what large scale is. Less than X, doesn't mean small scale.

The evidence is clear, I bring facts, some bring ad-hominem attacks. I couldn't care less about GOP vs Dems, I just want our country to prosper, but some don't see an issue that every ten years we are bombing somebody in the ME. Sometime it's good to mind our own bidness, and see that China is prospering without bombing a ME country every decade.

Like I said, those who have ears let them hear

We'd be fools to think that Muslim countries would get so upset over an amateur video that they would burn our embassies. Sure, the nimrod throwing the rock may protest because of the video, but the guy who told him to go out there is pissed at the US

I tried to read the whole thing for context, but when I got to this, I had enough...


He depicts bin Laden as a rational actor who is fighting to weaken the United States by weakening its economy, rather than merely combating and killing Americans.

Yep.. Nothing says rational like ordering civilian aircraft flown into buildings..

[KABOOKIE]

Mmmm civilized Israelis or radical mullahs. Tough choice.

[olevetonahill]

Oh so you now agree that Netanyahu is trying to influence US elections. Well, this is a step in the right direction. I doubt you'd appreciate his "sincere" input if he supported Obama.

Boy you aint got no readin compression do you?
I never said he wasnt tryin to Influence, I said he was TELLING big difference to me From askin to tellin
But you go ahead with yer little rant

[sappstuf]

After reading the Washington Post story, I can't find any quote that backs up the opening paragraph.


Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made a direct appeal to American voters on Sunday to elect a president willing to draw a “red line” with Iran comparing Tehran’s nuclear program to Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh and reminding Americans of the devastating repercussions of failed intelligence.

So what did he say about Timothy McVeigh?


It’s like Timothy McVeigh walking into a shop in Oklahoma City and saying, ‘I’d like to tend my garden. I’d like to buy some fertilizer ... Come on. We know that they’re working on a weapon,’” Netanyahu said.

I don't see any reference to our upcoming election..

So what about the failed intelligence bit..


But Netanyahu has said that’s not enough and employed historical examples known to most Americans to make his case: President John F. Kennedy’s demand that the Soviets remove its missiles sites in Cuba “maybe purchased decades of peace,” Netanyahu said. And absent a similar “red line,” then-Iraqi President Saddam Hussein faced a U.S. attack in 1991 after invading Kuwait.

“Maybe that war could have been avoided,” Netanyahu said.

Netanyahu also pointed to America’s inability to prevent the 9/11 hijackings as proof that intelligence can fail.

I once again see nothing about the election.

You can agree or disagree with his statements, but they could have been said two years ago(and probably were Bibi hasn't exactly been silent on this in the past) and they would mean the same thing. Sounds like people are trying to link it to the election, but there is nothing in that article that links what he said to the election besides the WP saying it was.

[rock on sooner]

I dint read all the stuff in this thread, but, imo, Netanyahu should
be careful what he wishes for...that's #1, and #2, he SHOULD NOT
meddle in ANY election process. Also, given that Romney thinks
middle class is $200-250K, when US median income is just over
$50K (IAW US Census) then, anyone who thinks he has a grip is
just nuts!

[sooner n houston]

So some of you want to see Israel wiped off the map I see. If the Arab nations were to lay down their weapons tomorrow there would be peace in the mid-east. If Israel was to lay down there weapons tomorrow there would be another holocaust.

[sooner n houston]

Also, given that Romney thinks
middle class is $200-250K, when US median income is just over
$50K (IAW US Census) then, anyone who thinks he has a grip is
just nuts!

You do realize Obama said basically the same thing don't you?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/romney-middle-income-200k-250k-152818009.html
Obama also has set his definition for "middle class" as families with income of up to $250,000 a year.

[okie52]

I dint read all the stuff in this thread, but, imo, Netanyahu should
be careful what he wishes for...that's #1, and #2, he SHOULD NOT
meddle in ANY election process. Also, given that Romney thinks
middle class is $200-250K, when US median income is just over
$50K (IAW US Census) then, anyone who thinks he has a grip is
just nuts!

Not as nutty as a pres that thinks cap and trade and stifling exploration will get us energy independence. Nope, just the kind of thinking that will keep us in the ME for decades to come.

[OU_Sooners75]

Well, let's face it. The only thing the dumbass arba countries want is us to no longer support israel. The only reason israel hasn't been blown off the face of earth is because we back them. So if we stopped, the arabs would go to an all out war against them.

And that would not be good at all!!!

[cleller]

Vet, aside from a full blown invasion, Iran will get nukes and no one can stop them. It is a pipe dream to think we can take out their facilities. We do not know where half of them are in the first place.

We're overlooking the distinct possibility that Iran could accidentally nuke themselves somehow. That type of thing seems to happen over and over in that part of the world.

[diverdog]

Well, let's face it. The only thing the dumbass arba countries want is us to no longer support israel. The only reason israel hasn't been blown off the face of earth is because we back them. So if we stopped, the arabs would go to an all out war against them.

And that would not be good at all!!!

Israel has 300 plus nukes including nuclear weapons on subs. The Arabs have none.

[8timechamps]

I never understood the hate some Americans have for Israel.

Like it, or not, we and our allies in other parts of the world depend on the oil that comes from that region. Israel happens to be the ONLY country in the Middle East that the US has a good relationship with, and that's pretty important. We DON'T FIGHT ANY WARS FOR ISRAEL. To think otherwise shows out misinformed some of you are.

It would be great if we could just leave the region alone, but guess what...we can't. Since we have to be there, why is their a problem having at least one ****ing country that we are on good terms with?

I really don't get it.

[KABOOKIE]

Israel has 300 plus nukes including nuclear weapons on subs. The Arabs have none.

Israel has peacfully kept those nukes. Wanna bet how long your mulah friends will keep them before launching one????

[diverdog]

Israel has peacfully kept those nukes. Wanna bet how long your mulah friends will keep them before launching one????

Sure.

[diverdog]

I never understood the hate some Americans have for Israel.

Like it, or not, we and our allies in other parts of the world depend on the oil that comes from that region. Israel happens to be the ONLY country in the Middle East that the US has a good relationship with, and that's pretty important. We DON'T FIGHT ANY WARS FOR ISRAEL. To think otherwise shows out misinformed some of you are.

It would be great if we could just leave the region alone, but guess what...we can't. Since we have to be there, why is their a problem having at least one ****ing country that we are on good terms with?

I really don't get it.

I never understood why some people love Israel more than their own country.

[landrun]

I'm tired of us fighting Israel's wars. I'm starting to dislike the Israeli government by a lot.

And yet, you have no problem with the US government begging Israel to take being sucker punched over and over without retaliation.
And when Israel finally does defend itself (it will happen) you'll be one of the first liberals to say we should go to war with Israel.
These guys are in a lose/lose situation with the libs.

The fact that you claim we're fighting their wars is pretty short sited and your perspective of the whole situation is skewed.

Why don't we tell them to do what we would do is someone was dropping missiles into our neighborhoods. That's really all they're asking.
They want to know that when they defend themselves (like we would) that the Obama admin isn't going to take sides with the international community and condemn/sanction/attack them.

[landrun]

Well, let's face it. The only thing the dumbass arba countries want is us to no longer support israel. The only reason israel hasn't been blown off the face of earth is because we back them. So if we stopped, the arabs would go to an all out war against them.

And that would not be good at all!!!

I can't believe the perspective of the left on Israel!! Every time an Islamic controlled country goes to war with Israel, Israel thumps them or at least brings an merciful end to the war.
There is no arab country that could 'blow Israel off the face of the Earth'.
The exact opposite is true. That's why we're constantly begging Israel for restraint and patience.

They could change the world map in one night removing every country that has stated their goal is to destroy Israel. The only reason they don't is because we beg them not to and they're concerned about American and the rest of the world when they do.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I'm tired of us fighting Israel's wars. I'm starting to dislike the Israeli government by a lot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-diplomat-no-daylight-between-us-israel-on-stopping-iran-from-developing-nuclear-weapon/2012/09/16/daba8028-0001-11e2-bbf0-e33b4ee2f0e8_story.html
What wars have we fought for them? i am pretty sure they hold their own by themselves.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Vet, aside from a full blown invasion, Iran will get nukes and no one can stop them. It is a pipe dream to think we can take out their facilities. We do not know where half of them are in the first place.
If that happens, the world is done for. Iran will use them.

[OUinFLA]

I hope I remember how to hide under my school desk.




I need a bigger desk.

[diverdog]

And yet, you have no problem with the US government begging Israel to take being sucker punched over and over without retaliation.
And when Israel finally does defend itself (it will happen) you'll be one of the first liberals to say we should go to war with Israel.
These guys are in a lose/lose situation with the libs.

The fact that you claim we're fighting their wars is pretty short sited and your perspective of the whole situation is skewed.

Why don't we tell them to do what we would do is someone was dropping missiles into our neighborhoods. That's really all they're asking.
They want to know that when they defend themselves (like we would) that the Obama admin isn't going to take sides with the international community and condemn/sanction/attack them.

What does our alliance with Israel get us?

[diverdog]

I dint read all the stuff in this thread, but, imo, Netanyahu should
be careful what he wishes for...that's #1, and #2, he SHOULD NOT
meddle in ANY election process. Also, given that Romney thinks
middle class is $200-250K, when US median income is just over
$50K (IAW US Census) then, anyone who thinks he has a grip is
just nuts!

The man is a loose cannon.


Is Netanyahu an Existential Threat to Israel?


One ex-Israeli official put it best (http://backchannel.al-monitor.com/index.php/2012/09/2033/netanyahu-lashes-out-at-us-no-moral-right-to-place-red-light-on-israel/). Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu seems to be "going berserk."
He is demanding (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/world/middleeast/united-states-and-israel-engage-in-public-spat-over-iran-policy.html?hp) that the United States set a "red line" that, once crossed, will automatically initiate a U.S. attack on Iran. He doesn't even bother to pretend that war with Iran is in U.S. interests. He just wants his war trigger. But he sees the chances for war diminishing every day.
I think his latest tantrum was produced by last week'sNew York Times op-ed (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/opinion/keller-nuclear-mullahs.html) by its former executive editor, Bill Keller, which stated that even if Iran develops nuclear weapons, they would not necessarily pose a significant threat to Israel, let alone to the United States.
Keller merely suggested what I have heard Israelis say privately: this whole Iran scare is not about nukes per se, it is about Israel's fear of losing the ability to do whatever it wants to, whenever it wants to. Bomb Gaza. Bomb Lebanon. Bomb Gaza relief ships. Bomb whoever, whenever.
It is about regional hegemony. After all, militarily Israel can more than handle Iran and both countries know that. That is why Israelis do not share (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/new-poll-majority-of-americans-oppose-military-strike-on-iran.premium-1.464330) Netanyahu's enthusiasm for war.
Not only do they not want war, they rightly fear that an attack on Iran would result in thousands of missiles being launched against Israeli population centers by Hezbollah and Hamas. Even though Defense Minister Ehud Barak promises (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/barak-israel-has-not-yet-decided-on-military-operation-against-iran-1.394347) that only 500 Israeli civilians would be killed (how did he come up with that number), Israelis do not want their kids to be among them.
None of this seems to matter to Netanyahu, who acts less like an Israeli leader than a U.S. neocon. That is why he is the first Israeli prime minister not even to go through the motions of serious negotiations. He is not interested.
Fortunately, President Obama -- like President George W. Bush (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/25/iran.israelandthepalestinians1) before him -- is standing in the way of an Iran war. Netanyahu's plan requires the United States to jump in to bail Israel out once it begins a war it cannot finish, but Obama, like Bush, won't permit it.
So what is Netanyahu to do? He will defeat President Obama (at least in his dreams) and bring in a Mitt Romney under the sway of Sheldon Adelson. He believes Romney would go to war and so he is engineering conflict with the United States to tip the election.
Forget the fact that he can't do it. The percentage of American Jews who vote based on Israel's perceived desires is 3 percent at best, (http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.4540689/) and not even that 3 percent necessarily believes war is in Israel's interests. Nonetheless, that is what Bibi's whole game is about.
The irony is that it is unlikely a President Romney would go to war, either. With the military opposed (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2012/0831/Dempsey-warns-Israel-that-a-unilateral-strike-wouldn-t-end-Iran-s-nuclear-program), one would have to imagine that Romney would risk American interests (most importantly, young lives) to please a donor and the same neocon claque that led Bush to a horrific war with Iraq.
Really? A new Republican president would want to begin his term with another Middle East war? Dream on, Bibi.
The only force in the United States that favors Netanyahu's approach is the Israel lobby (AIPAC (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/world/middleeast/israels-backers-in-aipac-press-obama-to-harden-iran-policy.html?pagewanted=all) and its satellite organizations), neoconservative pundits and some Christian rightists (although the latter are more enthusiastic about going to war against a woman's right to choose and gay rights than against Iran). War with Iran could destroy Romney's presidency and he surely knows it.
The bottom line then is that all Netanyahu is accomplishing with his ugly saber-rattling (and attempts to influence our election) is threatening the survival of the U.S.-Israel relationship.
Don't kid yourself. No matter what Obama says publicly, he is furious with Netanyahu. Privately, it is hard to imagine that even Republicans like seeing the United States being treated with such contempt by a country we sustain with $3.5 billion a year in aid (exempt from all cuts, unlike every other program) and U.N. vetoes that make America look like Israel's satellite. The only thing that keeps politicians quiet is intimidation and campaign contributions. That won't last forever, particularly as younger American Jews (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/?pagination=false)have moved toward indifference to Israel due to the policies it has pursued since an Israeli fanatic killed Yitzhak Rabin.
Israelis need to wake up. I.L. Kenen, the founder of AIPAC, called the United States Israel's defense line (http://www.questia.com/library/82262199/israel-s-defense-line-her-friends-and-foes-in-washington). It is. And Bibi is jeopardizing it.
Benjamin Netanyahu poses an existential threat to the Jewish state. Those who claim to care about Israel need to speak out. Will we really allow Netanyahu to destroy a 2000 year old dream?






Follow MJ Rosenberg on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mjayrosenberg (http://www.twitter.com/mjayrosenberg)

[OU_Sooners75]

I never understood why some people love Israel more than their own country.

Now this is one of most moronic posts you have ever made....and that is saying a lot!

I love this country. I would never dream of living anywhere else. But one thing is for sure. Israel has been a very good ally to us. And for anyone to think otherwise is just plain stupid.

We should not turn our backs on them. And furthermore we shouldn't be afraid to stand up for their right of soveriengty either.

We should never aplogoize to any nation, religion, or people for our rights here in this country. And we should never try to appease a nation, religion, or people because of what one person in our nation may say or do, if they are in their rights as a citizen!

Face it dude, this bull**** with the muslim world and this video is not the cause of the latest hatred they have shown towards our nation. Its just the scapegoat.

The middle east is just so ****ed up in their teachings and lifestyles that they feel hate towards others. They are so radical that they are feeble and simpleminded.

And last thing, if it wasn't for the western world, they would still be nomadic tribes that raise goats and camels.

They wouldn't have their firearms. They wouldn't have their cars, their risches, their abundant supply of food, etc.

Those ****ing people are so out of touch with reality it is no longer funny!!!

[OU_Sooners75]

What does our alliance with Israel get us?

Boy you have a really ****ed up way of looking at things.

What did the alliance with france during the revolutionary war get the french?
What does the alliance get with South Korea give us?
What does the alliance with England get us?
What does the alliance with Japan get us?
What does the alliance with australia get us?
What does the alliance with Turkey get us?
What does any alliance get us?

And to that, our alliance with Israel gives them hope that the jewish state can survive and the jewish people will not face another holocaust.

It may not give or get us a lot. But it makes sure the survuval of human beings is intact, not mention a religion.

Its like you standing up for your best friend that may not have many friends. It gives you some grief from others, but in the end its worth it knowing that your friend will not be bullied or picked onvery much if at all. And if they are, they at least know someone is there to aid them any way they can!

[diverdog]

Boy you have a really ****ed up way of looking at things.

What did the alliance with france during the revolutionary war get the french?
What does the alliance get with South Korea give us?
What does the alliance with England get us?
What does the alliance with Japan get us?
What does the alliance with australia get us?
What does the alliance with Turkey get us?
What does any alliance get us?

And to that, our alliance with Israel gives them hope that the jewish state can survive and the jewish people will not face another holocaust.

It may not give or get us a lot. But it makes sure the survuval of human beings is intact, not mention a religion.

Its like you standing up for your best friend that may not have many friends. It gives you some grief from others, but in the end its worth it knowing that your friend will not be bullied or picked onvery much if at all. And if they are, they at least know someone is there to aid them any way they can!

Do you have any idea how two faced we look to the Arabs. I remember being in a forward base in Saudi Arabia built with the help of US contractors, equipped with US hardware/military planes and do you know what it was designed to do? Yep attack Israel.

The funny part is that if Saudi Arabia attacked Israel we would back Israel. Now I find that hilarious. Especially since we depend on Saudi Arabia to give us oil. No wonder the Arabs hate us.

Israel does not act in our best interest, it is a small trading partner, and they get the largest foreign aid. If we parted company with them tomorrow it would not hurt the US in the least. Israel is just not that important to the US and should not dominate our foreign policy.

All this fear mongering from the right in this country needs to stop. Our military does not want to go to war with Iran, the state of Israel by and large does not want us to go to war with Iran and the vast majority of people in this country do not want a war with Iran. The only ones who want it are the idiotic neo cons on the right.

[olevetonahill]

You forgot IRAN wants us to have a war with them

[diverdog]

Now this is one of most moronic posts you have ever made....and that is saying a lot!

I love this country. I would never dream of living anywhere else. But one thing is for sure. Israel has been a very good ally to us. And for anyone to think otherwise is just plain stupid.

We should not turn our backs on them. And furthermore we shouldn't be afraid to stand up for their right of soveriengty either.

We should never aplogoize to any nation, religion, or people for our rights here in this country. And we should never try to appease a nation, religion, or people because of what one person in our nation may say or do, if they are in their rights as a citizen!

Face it dude, this bull**** with the muslim world and this video is not the cause of the latest hatred they have shown towards our nation. Its just the scapegoat.

The middle east is just so ****ed up in their teachings and lifestyles that they feel hate towards others. They are so radical that they are feeble and simpleminded.

And last thing, if it wasn't for the western world, they would still be nomadic tribes that raise goats and camels.

They wouldn't have their firearms. They wouldn't have their cars, their risches, their abundant supply of food, etc.

Those ****ing people are so out of touch with reality it is no longer funny!!!

Its no more moronic than the rantings and ravings from the right on this board. You guys just think we are going in and drop a few bombs and that will be that. Well I got news for you when you start a war you do not know how it will end.

I believe we act in the US's best interest first....period. Bombing Iran is not in our interest. It will put is into another protracted war, bankrupt this nation and hurt our military.

Oh btw Iranians are not Arabs......in case you do not know.

How has Israel been a very good ally to us?

[diverdog]

You forgot IRAN wants us to have a war with them

No they don't....not directly. The prefer to hurt Israel through their proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas. Though their support is not that much for Hamas.

Vet: The vast majority of the youth in Iran is pro-western. That is why you saw the marches a few years back. That may be the best example of Obama not doing a good job on supporting a democracy movement.

[soonercruiser]

I'm tired of us fighting Israel's wars. I'm starting to dislike the Israeli government by a lot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-diplomat-no-daylight-between-us-israel-on-stopping-iran-from-developing-nuclear-weapon/2012/09/16/daba8028-0001-11e2-bbf0-e33b4ee2f0e8_story.html

Your (and Diver's) "take" on this is pure liberal bulls***!
I have viewed the whole news conference, and all the message was generic, not political.
He only spoke of Israel's frustration with amateur (my words) world leaders.
Too bad you guys and Obama take it personal.
:confusion:

[olevetonahill]

No they don't....not directly. The prefer to hurt Israel through their proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas. Though their support is not that much for Hamas.

Vet: The vast majority of the youth in Iran is pro-western. That is why you saw the marches a few years back. That may be the best example of Obama not doing a good job on supporting a democracy movement.

Dint say nothin bout the common folk there. Its those religeous nuts that want the war and if you know anything about tem you know thats true

They think it will usher in the 12th Caliphate dude . Much like the Christians wait on the return of Christ to bring peace and prosperity they wait on that to Bring the world to islam

[soonercruiser]

I cant believe anyone in their right mind {Oh wait those 2 are Lefties ) could think its a good idea to let those crazy mother****ers Get Nukes .

Oh boy!
Albo says...
Iran is a direct threat to Israel, and not to the US.
Now I feel really better.

[soonercruiser]

The only reason they don't is because we beg them not to and they're concerned about American and the rest of the world when they do.

Obama is begging Israel not to because of the upcoming election.
No wait! Obama is trying to intimidate Israel into waiting until the unspeakable happens!
An the holocost deniers will comply.

[diverdog]

Dint say nothin bout the common folk there. Its those religeous nuts that want the war and if you know anything about tem you know thats true

They think it will usher in the 12th Caliphate dude . Much like the Christians wait on the return of Christ to bring peace and prosperity they wait on that to Bring the world to islam

Quit watching Glenn Beck.

If Israel hits Iran...Iraq will explode into violence and so will Afghanistan. Iran has access to our troops in both countries. Plus there is a good chance we fight a war in Iran. That would be a three front war Vet. Our country would go bankrupt.

Israel just tested a newer version of the Jericho missile. It is capable of hitting Iran in minutes with nuclear capability. Israel has the ability to wipe Iran off the map and anything that is left over will be destroyed by us.

[OU_Sooners75]

Its no more moronic than the rantings and ravings from the right on this board. You guys just think we are going in and drop a few bombs and that will be that. Well I got news for you when you start a war you do not know how it will end.

I believe we act in the US's best interest first....period. Bombing Iran is not in our interest. It will put is into another protracted war, bankrupt this nation and hurt our military.

Oh btw Iranians are not Arabs......in case you do not know.

How has Israel been a very good ally to us?


Now diver, where the **** did I even mention Iran?


Seriously...you're equal to a washing machine on spin cycle!


And finally, you say the right and you guys, as if I'm a right winger. Think again kiddo.


How has Israel been bad for us?

How they have been good? Well, for starters, intell.

[olevetonahill]

Quit watching Glenn Beck.

If Israel hits Iran...Iraq will explode into violence and so will Afghanistan. Iran has access to our troops in both countries. Plus there is a good chance we fight a war in Iran. That would be a three front war Vet. Our country would go bankrupt.

Israel just tested a newer version of the Jericho missile. It is capable of hitting Iran in minutes with nuclear capability. Israel has the ability to wipe Iran off the map and anything that is left over will be destroyed by us.

Glen beck? did you accuse ME of watching TeeVee? Hell Boy I aint even got a clue who that is
I dont listen to Rush either . I read the headlines and skim the articles. Then come to my own conclusions

[diverdog]

Glen beck? did you accuse ME of watching TeeVee? Hell Boy I aint even got a clue who that is
I dont listen to Rush either . I read the headlines and skim the articles. Then come to my own conclusions

Quit reading Glenn Beck. :)

[diverdog]

Now this is one of most moronic posts you have ever made....and that is saying a lot!

I love this country. I would never dream of living anywhere else. But one thing is for sure. Israel has been a very good ally to us. And for anyone to think otherwise is just plain stupid.

We should not turn our backs on them. And furthermore we shouldn't be afraid to stand up for their right of soveriengty either.

We should never aplogoize to any nation, religion, or people for our rights here in this country. And we should never try to appease a nation, religion, or people because of what one person in our nation may say or do, if they are in their rights as a citizen!

Face it dude, this bull**** with the muslim world and this video is not the cause of the latest hatred they have shown towards our nation. Its just the scapegoat.

The middle east is just so ****ed up in their teachings and lifestyles that they feel hate towards others. They are so radical that they are feeble and simpleminded.

And last thing, if it wasn't for the western world, they would still be nomadic tribes that raise goats and camels.

They wouldn't have their firearms. They wouldn't have their cars, their risches, their abundant supply of food, etc.

Those ****ing people are so out of touch with reality it is no longer funny!!!

Out of curiosity have you ever lived in the middle east or been deployed there.

[olevetonahill]

Quit reading Glenn Beck. :)

Believe it or not Ive no clue what this guy is, I have heard the name but thats about it

[Sooner98]

What wars have we fought for them?

None, but saying that we do fight all their wars for them sure is an effective anti-Israeli strawman argument.

[jkjsooner]

And yet, you have no problem with the US government begging Israel to take being sucker punched over and over without retaliation.
And when Israel finally does defend itself (it will happen) you'll be one of the first liberals to say we should go to war with Israel.
These guys are in a lose/lose situation with the libs.

As long as we're heavily involved in the defense of Israel we have a vested interest in keeping Israel in check. We are so involved that they are seen as an extension of us (or vice versa).

This is not a liberal stance at all. Plenty of conservative administrations have pushed for restraint on Israel's part. The first gulf war was a prime example.

If we were less involved in the confrontation between Israel and its neighbors we would have little self interest in pushing for restraint on Israel's part.

I'm not saying that's what I want us to do. I'm just stating that your logic if terribly flawed.

[8timechamps]

I never understood why some people love Israel more than their own country.

Outside of an Israeli citizen living in the US, who would you be referring to?

[8timechamps]

What does our alliance with Israel get us?

I know for a fact this has been addressed on this board, but I'm not going to find the thread (you should though). Where does this attitude come from? You should really do some research on our alliance and partnership with Israel before hating it so much. You might actually be surprised.

[OU_Sooners75]

Out of curiosity have you ever lived in the middle east or been deployed there.

No, but I did stay at a holiday inn....lol


All joking aside, no I haven't done either.

That said, I won't call my brother a liar that has been deployed in war. To both Afghanistan, and Iraq, both multiple times.

And his experiences there have a very telling story. How one minute they love theUSA the the next they want to kill and destroy the USA. Stories of how they will look you in the eyee to be your friend, and then try to shoot you in the back.

Stories of how even in a small moment of peace, the most extreme dream of no israel.

Then there is a dear friend of mine that went over the iraq as a frontline soldier during the taking of bagdhad. He mentions similar stories there in Iraq.

And when he went to Afghanistan after his tijme in Iraq, he was a land aquistion specialist or whatever they call it. He dealt with the leaders of tribes there on a one on one basis to aquire land for the military. He said it was worse in afghanistan.

His take on it goes further, because he also did the same as he did in afghanistan as he did in Jordan, turkey, Saudia Arabia, and Qatar.

I also have another friend that is a sgt in the amry and his duty is an interrogator. And some of the stories he has said to me would blow your ever living mind!

So while you sit there on your throne and have whatg sounds like a peacetikme active duty career, don't sit there and think you know it all when it comes to the middle east.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I'm tired of us fighting Israel's wars. I'm starting to dislike the Israeli government by a lot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-diplomat-no-daylight-between-us-israel-on-stopping-iran-from-developing-nuclear-weapon/2012/09/16/daba8028-0001-11e2-bbf0-e33b4ee2f0e8_story.htmlI brought you off of igg for THAT! you are an Obamanist, and your guy gotta GO OUT, Nov. 6, 2012

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Mmmm civilized Israelis or radical mullahs. Tough choice.The Obamanists have made their choice, and it ain't pretty, nor patriotic.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So some of you want to see Israel wiped off the map I see. If the Arab nations were to lay down their weapons tomorrow there would be peace in the mid-east. If Israel was to lay down there weapons tomorrow there would be another holocaust.This is SO HARD for some folks to process.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Israel has peacfully kept those nukes. Wanna bet how long your mulah friends will keep them before launching one????Yes, Lefties, this is not complicated.

[marfacowboy]

You can be against the actions of the Israeli government but still support Israel's sovereignty and right to peacefully exist in the Middle East. I have a lot of issues with their government, but don't wish the Israeli people harm.
Iran isn't going to attack Israel, and the reason is they know they'd face annihilation as a nation.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-Robert E. Lee

[olevetonahill]

You can be against the actions of the Israeli government but still support Israel's sovereignty and right to peacefully exist in the Middle East. I have a lot of issues with their government, but don't wish the Israeli people harm.
Iran isn't going to attack Israel, and the reason is they know they'd face annihilation as a nation.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-Robert E. Lee


What part of They Want a War to bring on the 12thIman dude?
you been sharing SouthCarolinas Breakfast?
http://onlineadvertisingexecutive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Bowl-of-Stupid-C11749983.jpeg

[marfacowboy]

Israel has peacfully kept those nukes. Wanna bet how long your mulah friends will keep them before launching one????

I suspect a terrorist group will get their hands on one and use it, but I don't see Iran launching an nuclear attack. It will likely be with the help of the Pakistanis. They're practically a failed state and have had scientists give secrets to terrorists. Iran has given some aid, but it's the Pakistanis you should be keeping your eyes on.

[marfacowboy]

What part of They Want a War to bring on the 12thIman dude?
you been sharing SouthCarolinas Breakfast?


huh?

[olevetonahill]

huh?

Go back to your breakfast :apple:

[diverdog]

No, but I did stay at a holiday inn....lol


All joking aside, no I haven't done either.

That said, I won't call my brother a liar that has been deployed in war. To both Afghanistan, and Iraq, both multiple times.

And his experiences there have a very telling story. How one minute they love theUSA the the next they want to kill and destroy the USA. Stories of how they will look you in the eyee to be your friend, and then try to shoot you in the back.

Stories of how even in a small moment of peace, the most extreme dream of no israel.

Then there is a dear friend of mine that went over the iraq as a frontline soldier during the taking of bagdhad. He mentions similar stories there in Iraq.

And when he went to Afghanistan after his tijme in Iraq, he was a land aquistion specialist or whatever they call it. He dealt with the leaders of tribes there on a one on one basis to aquire land for the military. He said it was worse in afghanistan.

His take on it goes further, because he also did the same as he did in afghanistan as he did in Jordan, turkey, Saudia Arabia, and Qatar.

I also have another friend that is a sgt in the amry and his duty is an interrogator. And some of the stories he has said to me would blow your ever living mind!

So while you sit there on your throne and have whatg sounds like a peacetikme active duty career, don't sit there and think you know it all when it comes to the middle east.

Wow what brought that rant on? I was just asking a question because I thought you had deployed to the ME?

And no I did not serve a peace time military career but I was not a grunt either. I was attached to several combat squadrons also called expeditionary airlift squadrons. I would imagine your brother does not look down his nose at C-130 crews.

[diverdog]

Yes, Lefties, this is not complicated.

Yes it is complicated. I wish we still had the draft so some of mf'ers would understand that war should be our very last option because there would be chance you would serve.

[OU_Sooners75]

Wow what brought that rant on? I was just asking a question because I thought you had deployed to the ME?

And no I did not serve a peace time military career but I was not a grunt either. I was attached to several combat squadrons also called expeditionary airlift squadrons. I would imagine your brother does not look down his nose at C-130 crews.

What brought the rant on was sojme dumbass trying to act as if he is a know it all about everything. And in this case the middle east.

My brother doesn't look down upon anyone, doesn't matter what branch.

[marfacowboy]

Yes it is complicated. I wish we still had the draft so some of mf'ers would understand that war should be our very last option because there would be chance you would serve.

Consider Vietnam. The draft was highly unpopular and helped fuel massive protests, particularly in '68 and '69. The public's obloquy negatively affected LJB and eventually forced the U.S. the end the war.

[pphilfran]

Yes it is complicated. I wish we still had the draft so some of mf'ers would understand that war should be our very last option because there would be chance you would serve.

I have said it before...we make it far too easy to go to war...we want a civilized war...war that doesn't harm the civilian base....a high tech, eye in the sky, laser targeted, pinpoint accuracy war...

My take is that if we go to war we go to level the friggin country...we do all we can to completely destroy the infrastructure and the will of the people...if we ain't got balls enough to go in and completely annihilate the country then we don't need to go to war...

My take would force us to stay out of a lot of pizz ant useless wars...

[marfacowboy]

I have said it before...we make it far too easy to go to war...we want a civilized war...war that doesn't harm the civilian base....a high tech, eye in the sky, laser targeted, pinpoint accuracy war...

My take is that if we go to war we go to level the friggin country...we do all we can to completely destroy the infrastructure and the will of the people...if we ain't got balls enough to go in and completely annihilate the country then we don't need to go to war...

My take would force us to stay out of a lot of pizz ant useless wars...

While watching the Ken Burns Civil War special last night, I pondered what Sherman would do. Or Stonewall Jackson, who famously said, "Kill 'em, kill 'em all."
They believed in total war, especially Sherman. Breaking the will of the people by destroying crops and their ability to live. I suspect they wouldn't make it in today's military, yet they were two of the greatest soldiers this country ever produced.

[SoonerProphet]

“And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
“And the epitaph drear: ‘A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.’”

[olevetonahill]

So Profit, You callin our dead and wounded FOOLs? :mad:

[8timechamps]

I have said it before...we make it far too easy to go to war...we want a civilized war...war that doesn't harm the civilian base....a high tech, eye in the sky, laser targeted, pinpoint accuracy war...

My take is that if we go to war we go to level the friggin country...we do all we can to completely destroy the infrastructure and the will of the people...if we ain't got balls enough to go in and completely annihilate the country then we don't need to go to war...

My take would force us to stay out of a lot of pizz ant useless wars...

That's the future of war for the US. Unmanned drones, Cruise missiles launched hundreds of miles away, satellite guided munitions, etc.

It will become more and more simple to go to war without risking (American) lives. A scary thought.

[olevetonahill]

That's the future of war for the US. Unmanned drones, Cruise missiles launched hundreds of miles away, satellite guided munitions, etc.

It will become more and more simple to go to war without risking (American) lives. A scary thought.

We need that Neutron Bomb
That would have made it Real Easy

[8timechamps]

You can be against the actions of the Israeli government but still support Israel's sovereignty and right to peacefully exist in the Middle East. I have a lot of issues with their government, but don't wish the Israeli people harm.
Iran isn't going to attack Israel, and the reason is they know they'd face annihilation as a nation.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."-Robert E. Lee

You approach this from a sane point of view. Don't bet that the Iranian government looks at it the same way.

Even if Iran doesn't launch a first strike, I'd say the odds are almost 1 to 1 that they would absolutely sell nuclear weapons to anyone that wants to use them on Israel.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

So Profit, You callin our dead and wounded FOOLs? :mad:That is the prominent opinion among Libs.(D's and RINOS)

[8timechamps]

We need that Neutron Bomb
That would have made it Real Easy

Wonder if we still have any hidden away.

[badger]

I remember Osama bin Laden once telling the US voters how important their votes in the upcoming presidential election were.

The year was 2004.

W. was re-elected by such a margin that they didn't even bother checking for hanging chads in Florida that time.

[olevetonahill]

Wonder if we still have any hidden away.

Heh that would be sweet

[rock on sooner]

That is the prominent opinion among Libs.(D's and RINOS)

It saddens me that I read something like that, surely, surely, you don't
believe that.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It saddens me that I read something like that, surely, surely, you don't
believe that.If you don't believe that, maybe you think you're not a Lib.

[rock on sooner]

If you don't believe that, maybe you think you're not a Lib.

All labels aside, for you to say that ANY group believes our
dead and wounded military are fools is a real shame and it
saddens me that someone who thinks he is intelligent would
say that.

[SoonerProphet]

So Profit, You callin our dead and wounded FOOLs? :mad:

don't have a real deep pool do ya?

[Mississippi Sooner]

I don't always recognize a poet based on a verse or two, but that's usually not the case with Kipling.

[olevetonahill]

don't have a real deep pool do ya?

Dont need much depth when theres just minnows like you to mess around with

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

All labels aside, for you to say that ANY group believes our
dead and wounded military are fools is a real shame and it
saddens me that someone who thinks he is intelligent would
say that.If you somehow think I meant 100% of all Libz thought that, you would be wrong, but a significant # believe that, and as expected, think that those who join the military might be stupid, foolish, or desperate. I don't believe many Libz believe people join the military out of love and respect for America, and want to serve and protect our(is it still?) great country.

[rock on sooner]

If you somehow think I meant 100% of all Libz thought that, you would be wrong, but a significant # believe that, and as expected, think that those who join the military might be stupid, foolish, or desperate. I don't believe many Libz believe people join the military out of love and respect for America, and want to serve and protect our(is it still?) great country.

Well, then, I'd take you to task with painting all with the same
brush stroke. I'd take issue with "all Libz", even "signifcant",
I am firmly convinced that nearly all want to support our country,
there were/are a few that just want to duck whatever, but most of
them get weeded out. My time is the AF was that "we gotta job ta
do", let's do it. When I get off work then I'll "do whatever". & I did!
Ask all the "birds" in Scotlland that I tried to love. Bunch of 'em helped!

[diverdog]

Well, then, I'd take you to task with painting all with the same
brush stroke. I'd take issue with "all Libz", even "signifcant",
I am firmly convinced that nearly all want to support our country,
there were/are a few that just want to duck whatever, but most of
them get weeded out. My time is the AF was that "we gotta job ta
do", let's do it. When I get off work then I'll "do whatever". & I did!
Ask all the "birds" in Scotlland that I tried to love. Bunch of 'em helped!

And how many of our military comes from the poor inner city families that Romney complains about? I served with a lot of poor Latino and Black kids.

[diverdog]

What brought the rant on was sojme dumbass trying to act as if he is a know it all about everything. And in this case the middle east.

My brother doesn't look down upon anyone, doesn't matter what branch.

Damn boy you must be on the rag.

[rock on sooner]

If you somehow think I meant 100% of all Libz thought that, you would be wrong, but a significant # believe that, and as expected, think that those who join the military might be stupid, foolish, or desperate. I don't believe many Libz believe people join the military out of love and respect for America, and want to serve and protect our(is it still?) great country.

RLIMC, did you serve? What branch? What did you think? What did your buddies think?
(Ya know buddies tell tha truth, no matter YOUR ideas?) Wow , the MOST unbridled facts
that you can imagine! It took me some time to figger out that I dint know jack, but my
platoon did and I've carried forward all these years, bunch of smart guys!

[diverdog]

I know for a fact this has been addressed on this board, but I'm not going to find the thread (you should though). Where does this attitude come from? You should really do some research on our alliance and partnership with Israel before hating it so much. You might actually be surprised.

I don't hate Israel.

Jefferson warned us against "entangling alliances'. Israel is a good case in point. Our foreign policy is held hostage by a relatively small nation that is around of 17th largest trading partner....a distant 17th I might add. Other than that we get nothing from them. Israel has never helped us fight a war and the often act in a way that is not in the best interest of the US.

As far as I can tell there are three reasons that we support Israel:

1. It is a Jewish state
2. It is a launching point for the US if we need to invade Arab lands and take back oil fields.
3. The fundamentalist Christians believe that the End Times and all the stuff that will happen including the conversion of Jews to Christianity.

The US's major interest in the Middle East is oil. To say any different flies in the face of the facts. Our blind support of Israel hurts us with the major oil exporting nations in the Middle East. We have a long history of bad foreign policy in the area and it is starting to hurt us now.

I firmly believe if we were not so blindly loyal to Israel that we would not have been attacked by terrorist. Technically, we have not fought Israel's wars but we sure as **** have taken it up the *** for them on more than one occasion.

IMO the modern state of Israel should have never been allowed to form. The US should have take all the Jewish refugees from WWII. Our nation could have protected this vulnerable population with our all strength and power. Instead, the world has created a mess in the ME that will never be resolved. The issues are so complex and the grievances so deep that there will never be a peaceful resolution.

We have a close friend who left Armenia after the Turks committed genocide and she moved to Palestine. She saw the formation of Israel first hand and she told us that their were atrocities committed on both sides. Our friend speaks both Hebrew and Arab fluently. When you talk to her she will tell you that we should trust neither side and that the US should stay out of the conflict.

What I do not get is why there is such blind support for Israel and this willingness to go to war with Iran. We have spent over $2 TRILLION dollars trying to win peace in that part of the world and it worse than it has ever been. It is a rat hole that will sink our nation. They have been at war the entire 53 years of my life. I think we should have a balanced policy in that part of the world that serves our interest and that is the trade in oil. The issues between the Arabs and Israeli's need to be solved by both parties. Our nation is powerless to make peace in that part of the world and I do not know how many presidents are going to continue to bang their heads against the wall of the unattainable promise of peace in the ME before they figure out is not worth the time or effort. It is time for us to get out of the peace business in the ME and focus on what is best for America.

[olevetonahill]

DD you aint ever gonna understand it .
Why you wanta keep bangin yer head ?

[rock on sooner]

DD you aint ever gonna understand it .
Why you wanta keep bangin yer head ?

Vet, aint so sure that I disagree..not sure we've got the right idea but
am sure we need to be involved. Too dayum many things that cause
us some problems ifn we dont stay involved. Arabs aint gonna cut us
any slack but ifn we dont stay involved then we have to depend on somebody
else that can get us really screwed. Jews got their own issues and they
should think #1. Ifn we dont say were there with them then were in a
deep basket. Not sure that DD is right everywhere but theres some good
points. Iran is bad news, their prez is a dork but a dangerous dork. JMO..

[olevetonahill]

Vet, aint so sure that I disagree..not sure we've got the right idea but
am sure we need to be involved. Too dayum many things that cause
us some problems ifn we dont stay involved. Arabs aint gonna cut us
any slack but ifn we dont stay involved then we have to depend on somebody
else that can get us really screwed. Jews got their own issues and they
should think #1. Ifn we dont say were there with them then were in a
deep basket. Not sure that DD is right everywhere but theres some good
points. Iran is bad news, their prez is a dork but a dangerous dork. JMO..

I think for the Most part most of us here are not that far apart in what we believe

Im not really that worried about abammerjabberraghead Pres. Of Iran
I am worried shatless about the Ayatollahs who control the ****in place
Those are the ones who skeer ME

Those are the Ones who want and push for Total war in that region to bring forth the 12th Imam dude
Much like the Idiot Christians think that war there will Bring forth the return of Christ

[rock on sooner]

I think for the Most part most of us here are not that far apart in what we believe

Im not really that worried about abammerjabberraghead Pres. Of Iran
I am worried shatless about the Ayatollahs who control the ****in place
Those are the ones who skeer ME

Those are the Ones who want and push for Total war in that region to bring forth the 12th Imam dude
Much like the Idiot Christians think that war there will Bring forth the return of Christ

Big issue, IMO, is Ahmedinajad (sp?) could go off half cocked and the
Supreme couldn't stop him. Somebody said on another thread that
the religious guy runs the place, and that's prolly true, but the elected
nut could pull the trigger and nobody could stop him.

[diverdog]

Big issue, IMO, is Ahmedinajad (sp?) could go off half cocked and the
Supreme couldn't stop him. Somebody said on another thread that
the religious guy runs the place, and that's prolly true, but the elected
nut could pull the trigger and nobody could stop him.

Rock, Ahmedinajad has little control over the military. In fact, Robert Gates gave an interview to Fox News about a year ago where he said the political landscape in Iran is really changing and it is becoming more of a military dictatorship as more of the Mullah's are sidelned. I do not know how this will all play out. One thing for sure Ahmedinajad is getting pushed further from power.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/20/military-in-iran-seen-as-taking-control/

[cleller]

I think for the Most part most of us here are not that far apart in what we believe

Im not really that worried about abammerjabberraghead Pres. Of Iran
I am worried shatless about the Ayatollahs who control the ****in place
Those are the ones who skeer ME

Those are the Ones who want and push for Total war in that region to bring forth the 12th Imam dude
Much like the Idiot Christians think that war there will Bring forth the return of Christ

Was just watching some of Frontline on PBS. It was covering the fighting in Syria. Geez, that whole part of the world is just full of people that couldn't get along if they were all on Prozac and watching Captain Kangaroo.
The rebels want democracy. If they get it, it will probably go from a revolution straight to civil war. Trying to extrapolate of standards of behavior, or values onto these people is useless. Your average American, including me, just cannot understand them.

[diverdog]

Was just watching some of Frontline on PBS. It was covering the fighting in Syria. Geez, that whole part of the world is just full of people that couldn't get along if they were all on Prozac and watching Captain Kangaroo.
The rebels want democracy. If they get it, it will probably go from a revolution straight to civil war. Trying to extrapolate of standards of behavior, or values onto these people is useless. Your average American, including me, just cannot understand them.

Sell arms to all side and let them kill each other. Problem solved. :glee:

[rock on sooner]

Rock, Ahmedinajad has little control over the military. In fact, Robert Gates gave an interview to Fox News about a year ago where he said the political landscape in Iran is really changing and it is becoming more of a military dictatorship as more of the Mullah's are sidelned.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/20/military-in-iran-seen-as-taking-control/

DD, over the years I've gone back and forth with those folks. When I was in
Pakistan I saw just how the money ruled. It was then and it is now and if
the prez has enough connections in the military then he could pull it off. The
truth is (IMO) that that little worm has some pull or he wouldn't still be where
he is. I'm afraid that our intel isn't what we'd like to believe. I'm not a quitter,
but I truly wonder if we just shouldn't leave those folks to their own, bring
our treasure home. If they continue to mess with us, then isolate and obliterate.
Ain't the Christian thing to do but, pretty soon, enough is enough.

[olevetonahill]

Was just watching some of Frontline on PBS. It was covering the fighting in Syria. Geez, that whole part of the world is just full of people that couldn't get along if they were all on Prozac and watching Captain Kangaroo.
The rebels want democracy. If they get it, it will probably go from a revolution straight to civil war. Trying to extrapolate of standards of behavior, or values onto these people is useless. Your average American, including me, just cannot understand them.

^ This
Any of you idiots that think you can TALK to these Ragged headed ****ers are as Nuts as they are

[diverdog]

DD, over the years I've gone back and forth with those folks. When I was in
Pakistan I saw just how the money ruled. It was then and it is now and if
the prez has enough connections in the military then he could pull it off. The
truth is (IMO) that that little worm has some pull or he wouldn't still be where
he is. I'm afraid that our intel isn't what we'd like to believe. I'm not a quitter,
but I truly wonder if we just shouldn't leave those folks to their own, bring
our treasure home. If they continue to mess with us, then isolate and obliterate.
Ain't the Christian thing to do but, pretty soon, enough is enough.

Rock:

How long have we dealt with Pakistan?

The best way to counter threats like Pakistan is through another regional power that is a direct competitor. India in the case of Pakistan. It might be Saudi Arabia or Turkey in the case of Iran. Even the Kurds could be an option.

There are ways to destabilize the current regime and we should pursue every avenue before even thinking about war. Like I have said we have time.

[8timechamps]

I don't hate Israel.

Jefferson warned us against "entangling alliances'. Israel is a good case in point. Our foreign policy is held hostage by a relatively small nation that is around of 17th largest trading partner....a distant 17th I might add. Other than that we get nothing from them. Israel has never helped us fight a war and the often act in a way that is not in the best interest of the US.

As far as I can tell there are three reasons that we support Israel:

1. It is a Jewish state
2. It is a launching point for the US if we need to invade Arab lands and take back oil fields.
3. The fundamentalist Christians believe that the End Times and all the stuff that will happen including the conversion of Jews to Christianity.

The US's major interest in the Middle East is oil. To say any different flies in the face of the facts. Our blind support of Israel hurts us with the major oil exporting nations in the Middle East. We have a long history of bad foreign policy in the area and it is starting to hurt us now.

I firmly believe if we were not so blindly loyal to Israel that we would not have been attacked by terrorist. Technically, we have not fought Israel's wars but we sure as **** have taken it up the *** for them on more than one occasion.

IMO the modern state of Israel should have never been allowed to form. The US should have take all the Jewish refugees from WWII. Our nation could have protected this vulnerable population with our all strength and power. Instead, the world has created a mess in the ME that will never be resolved. The issues are so complex and the grievances so deep that there will never be a peaceful resolution.

We have a close friend who left Armenia after the Turks committed genocide and she moved to Palestine. She saw the formation of Israel first hand and she told us that their were atrocities committed on both sides. Our friend speaks both Hebrew and Arab fluently. When you talk to her she will tell you that we should trust neither side and that the US should stay out of the conflict.

What I do not get is why there is such blind support for Israel and this willingness to go to war with Iran. We have spent over $2 TRILLION dollars trying to win peace in that part of the world and it worse than it has ever been. It is a rat hole that will sink our nation. They have been at war the entire 53 years of my life. I think we should have a balanced policy in that part of the world that serves our interest and that is the trade in oil. The issues between the Arabs and Israeli's need to be solved by both parties. Our nation is powerless to make peace in that part of the world and I do not know how many presidents are going to continue to bang their heads against the wall of the unattainable promise of peace in the ME before they figure out is not worth the time or effort. It is time for us to get out of the peace business in the ME and focus on what is best for America.

There's so much about this that is just misinformation. But, I don't really have the interest in debating with you about this again (because we've done this in the past, and clearly you either didn't believe the facts, or just ignored them). So, I'll make it as simple as possible:

The only thing standing between Israel being attacked by most (if not all) countries in the region is the United States. And don't kid yourself, if Israel is attacked, they WILL defend themselves in every way possible. That includes nuclear weapons. I'll leave you with this; would you rather have a relationship with Israel, or a nuclear war in the ME? I'll take the relationship.