I got a question for the Atheists of the Board

[olevetonahill]

Why do Yall insist on ridiculing those who Believe in God and Or Jesus?
I dont understand your thinking on this. Cant Yall just let em go on in their beliefs and leave them alone.

Theres at least 5 of Yall that Try to tear some one apart when they say something , WHY?
Do their beliefs Hurt you in some way?
Take Food off your table? What drives Yall to do this?
Thanks in advance

[tator]

I think you should name names; otherwise, this is like asking mexicans why all of them like to be in gangs.

[olevetonahill]

I think you should name names; otherwise, this is like asking mexicans why all of them like to be in gangs.

They know who they bare, Plus if youve been around YOU know who they are. What point would it make to name them?

[jk the sooner fan]

isnt calling them atheists bad enough? ;)

[Curly Bill]

They think they are intellectually superior, so to prove it they try to tear down those that believe in God.

[olevetonahill]

isnt calling them atheists bad enough? ;)

They claim that Name, I didn't anoint em with it.
Myself Im an Agnostic, I just dont understand all the tearing folks beliefs apart crap that they do.
Why I asked my question

[tator]

They claim that Name, I didn't anoint em with it.
Myself Im an Agnostic, I just dont understand all the tearing folks beliefs apart crap that they do.
Why I asked my question

I'm in the same camp as you, just seemed like you were grouping all Athiests together.

[tator]

They think they are intellectually superior, so to prove it they try to tear down those that believe in God.

I'd speculate that this has to do with the specific people that are being referred to and doesn't really have anything to do with them being Athiest.

ie: they probably react this way to most topics, not just religious topics.

[olevetonahill]

I'm in the same camp as you, just seemed like you were grouping all Athiests together.

Naw, I stated theres about 5 here that do that.

[Curly Bill]

I'd speculate that this has to do with the specific people that are being referred to and doesn't really have anything to do with them being Athiest.

ie: they probably react this way to most topics, not just religious topics.

Yup, I'd say you're prolly right on this.

[olevetonahill]

I'd speculate that this has to do with the specific people that are being referred to and doesn't really have anything to do with them being Athiest.

ie: they probably react this way to most topics, not just religious topics.

No the ones Im askin have stated very eloquently That they are Atheists and they go way out of their way to ridicule the believers here. I simply wanted to know why?
Not get into a Semantics debate

[Mjcpr]

I'm in the same camp as you, just seemed like you were grouping all Athiests together.

You Swissed this up right nice, congrats.

[tator]

You Swissed this up right nice, congrats.

It's a gift

[tator]

Yup, I'd say you're prolly right on this.

I'm mostly talking about myself

[jk the sooner fan]

Jesus haters

the lot of you.....

[SoonerTerry]

"I'm goin to heaven Lt. Vet"

forest voice

[Ike]

Typically, I reserve my ridicule for particular behaviors that are insanely irritating. By and large the majority of believers I know are nice and decent people, and I have no reason to ridicule them. That goes for any faith, not just christianity. I know quite a number of nice and decent muslims, jews, and hindus as well.

However some behaviors are just screaming to be ridiculed. Those include:

--People who see me as a "project"...who feel like they need to spend all their time around me trying to convert me. Granted, it's not very many people, but this one has to top the list. It leaves me thinking that they just want to be around me because they think that they'll get bonus points with god if they do convert me, and that they really don't care to be around me other than for the purposes of their religion. Bugger off. First, it likely won't work...I've heard all that **** a brazillion times before. Second, by their own stated logic of "I care so much about you I'd hate to see you in hell", the only proper response is for me to say "well, I care so much about you that I'd hate to see you waste so much of your precious short life on this planet believing in a bunch of nonsense, and acting on those nonsensical beliefs, such as you are doing right now."

--The "It's all part of gods plan" business. The more I hear/see this thrown about when commenting on a particularly tragic situation, the more convinced I become that if this particular god exists, he is a grade A *******.

--Wanting to teach creationism in science classes. The earth isn't 6000 years old. Get over it. No amount of shouting that it is will make it so.

--The circular logic of :
A)"It's in the bible so it must be true"
B)"How do you know the bible is true?"
A)"Because it's the word of god"
B)"How do you know it's the word of god?"
A)"Because it says so in the bible"


These things don't apply to a large number of christians. I try not to lump them all together, because as I said above, I know a great many people of a large number of faiths that are good and decent people.

[MamaMia]

I'm one of those lucky people who was actually given confirmation that there is a God. I already believed there was though. I surely wouldn't want to argue about faith. People are going to believe what they want to believe.

[prrriiide]

I save my ridicule for those times when a position beggars common sense. Usually I'll just give 'em a link to a Carlin vid on youtube. FTR, I believe in God; I just don't wear it on my sleeve or ram it down someone's throat. I also believe He's sitting up there wondering how he could have created something so stupid, self-destructive, and self-centered as homo sapiens.

My favorite 'toon from The Far Side:

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z315/nomomomo_bucket/kitchen.gif

[yermom]

Typically, I reserve my ridicule for particular behaviors that are insanely irritating. By and large the majority of believers I know are nice and decent people, and I have no reason to ridicule them. That goes for any faith, not just christianity. I know quite a number of nice and decent muslims, jews, and hindus as well.

However some behaviors are just screaming to be ridiculed. Those include:

--People who see me as a "project"...who feel like they need to spend all their time around me trying to convert me. Granted, it's not very many people, but this one has to top the list. It leaves me thinking that they just want to be around me because they think that they'll get bonus points with god if they do convert me, and that they really don't care to be around me other than for the purposes of their religion. Bugger off. First, it likely won't work...I've heard all that **** a brazillion times before. Second, by their own stated logic of "I care so much about you I'd hate to see you in hell", the only proper response is for me to say "well, I care so much about you that I'd hate to see you waste so much of your precious short life on this planet believing in a bunch of nonsense, and acting on those nonsensical beliefs, such as you are doing right now."

--The "It's all part of gods plan" business. The more I hear/see this thrown about when commenting on a particularly tragic situation, the more convinced I become that if this particular god exists, he is a grade A *******.

--Wanting to teach creationism in science classes. The earth isn't 6000 years old. Get over it. No amount of shouting that it is will make it so.

--The circular logic of :
A)"It's in the bible so it must be true"
B)"How do you know the bible is true?"
A)"Because it's the word of god"
B)"How do you know it's the word of god?"
A)"Because it says so in the bible"


These things don't apply to a large number of christians. I try not to lump them all together, because as I said above, I know a great many people of a large number of faiths that are good and decent people.

this, except for maybe some of the good and decent part ;)

[Wishboned]

It's been my personal experience with atheists (your mileage may vary) that they preach atheism harder than a Southern Baptist preacher preaches Revelations.

[8timechamps]

I rarely discuss religion, especially on the internet, but there is a question I have for the atheists. I don't want this to turn into a debate, however, if anyone of the non-atheist want to join in, have at it.

If you have no belief in God (or a superior being), what's the point of doing "good" on earth?

I know it seems like bait, but it's really not. I've wondered about this for quiet a while, and am just curious. I believe that I will be held accountable for my actions in the afterlife, so it has certainly molded the way I live. I'm just curious what the other side of the coin looks like.

[jk the sooner fan]

I rarely discuss religion, especially on the internet, but there is a question I have for the atheists. I don't want this to turn into a debate, however, if anyone of the non-atheist want to join in, have at it.

If you have no belief in God (or a superior being), what's the point of doing "good" on earth?

I know it seems like bait, but it's really not. I've wondered about this for quiet a while, and am just curious. I believe that I will be held accountable for my actions in the afterlife, so it has certainly molded the way I live. I'm just curious what the other side of the coin looks like.

i'm not sure this plays into your question - but i cant remember a time when a group of atheists banded together and provided assistance to the hungry, the downtrodden, etc etc

I can rattle off an exponential number of faith based organizations that will gather and help their fellow man in time of need or crisis

that isnt meant to be and "end of discussion" statement....and i do believe that as individuals - atheists do contribute to charity

[8timechamps]

i'm not sure this plays into your question - but i cant remember a time when a group of atheists banded together and provided assistance to the hungry, the downtrodden, etc etc

I can rattle off an exponential number of faith based organizations that will gather and help their fellow man in time of need or crisis

that isnt meant to be and "end of discussion" statement....and i do believe that as individuals - atheists do contribute to charity

Absolutely they do. I have several friends that consider themselves atheist, and they are outstanding people, husbands, fathers. I have wanted to pose the same question to them, but it never really came up (and as I mentioned, I rarely discuss religion).

I would guess they are like most people in that they want to lead good lives. My question is what is their thinking for doing so?

[SoonerLB]

I save my ridicule for those times when a position beggars common sense. Usually I'll just give 'em a link to a Carlin vid on youtube. FTR, I believe in God; I just don't wear it on my sleeve or ram it down someone's throat. I also believe He's sitting up there wondering how he could have created something so stupid, self-destructive, and self-centered as homo sapiens.[/IMG]

Food for thought: If HE "created" the problem, then why does HE not "create" the fix?

----------

"Wanting to teach creationism in science classes. The earth isn't 6000 years old. Get over it. No amount of shouting that it is will make it so."

--The circular logic of :
A)"It's in the bible so it must be true"
B)"How do you know the bible is true?"
A)"Because it's the word of god"
B)"How do you know it's the word of god?"
A)"Because it says so in the bible"

And more food for thought: And let us not forget, the world WAS flat then. ;)

[C&CDean]

Food for thought: If HE "created" the problem, then why does HE not "create" the fix?

----------

"Wanting to teach creationism in science classes. The earth isn't 6000 years old. Get over it. No amount of shouting that it is will make it so."

--The circular logic of :
A)"It's in the bible so it must be true"
B)"How do you know the bible is true?"
A)"Because it's the word of god"
B)"How do you know it's the word of god?"
A)"Because it says so in the bible"

And more food for thought: And let us not forget, the world WAS flat then. ;)

Armageddon?

[Ike]

i'm not sure this plays into your question - but i cant remember a time when a group of atheists banded together and provided assistance to the hungry, the downtrodden, etc etc

I can rattle off an exponential number of faith based organizations that will gather and help their fellow man in time of need or crisis

that isnt meant to be and "end of discussion" statement....and i do believe that as individuals - atheists do contribute to charity

Here in OKC, we have decent sized atheist organization. Primarily it's function is just to serve as a facilitator for people to meet other like minded people. But one of the most well attended functions this group puts on on a very regular basis is a volunteering session at the regional food bank. In fact, because more in the group want to do more of this type of thing, and because it doesn't always jive with peoples schedules, they are exploring more ways to offer community service as a group.

Part of the reasons you don't hear more about things like this are that it's really only been recently that atheists have been encouraged to actually declare their atheism. As such, until recently, there haven't been many atheists banding together for anything. But thats starting to change. It's getting easier than ever before to find and associate with like minded people.


As to the question of "why do good?" Why not? We live in this world and want to see it a better place for everyone. I don't think you need an invisible sky-friend to tell you that you can help make it a better place.

[8timechamps]

As to the question of "why do good?" Why not? We live in this world and want to see it a better place for everyone. I don't think you need an invisible sky-friend to tell you that you can help make it a better place.

I know that probably seemed like a silly question, but having always believed in my sky friend, I have always been curious of those who don't. Thanks for answering Ike.

[olevetonahill]

As to the question of "why do good?" Why not? We live in this world and want to see it a better place for everyone. I don't think you need an invisible sky-friend to tell you that you can help make it a better place.

That is what Im talkin about Bro
Why do you feel the need to belittle some one else s beliefs?
Im really curious as to why those who DONT believe in a God, seem to always try to ridicule those who do.

[8timechamps]

That is what Im talkin about Bro
Why do you feel the need to belittle some one else s beliefs?
Im really curious as to why those who DONT believe in a God, seem to always try to ridicule those who do.

Maybe it's in the interpretation vet. Since Ike's been on this board forever, I didn't take it as a jab. I took it as Ike being Ike. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

I have had people ask, "Without God, what is to deter you from murder?" Paraphrasing a bit there... Well, I don't want to murder often, but when I do, the police slow me up some. Then there is my conscience and my own will to avoid conflict. Maybe a little kindheartedness in there.

Atheists are people living in the same communities with largely the same American values as you. I was raised in a Christian household. My folks don't know squat about the Bible. If they did, they may have scratched their heads in wonderment as well.

Just do yourself a favor and read Genesis. It is really, really hard to swallow with a 21st century brain. Talking snakes, pillar of salt, this guy begat that guy, Lott tossing his kids to the people to rape, incest, and so forth. A timeless God should write a timeless book.

And Mama, if there is a God, I would hope that he would extend the same luxury of proof to the rest of us as he did to you. Until then, I don't get it. These guys don't get it either:

http://vimeo.com/15773748

[Ike]

That is what Im talkin about Bro
Why do you feel the need to belittle some one else s beliefs?
Im really curious as to why those who DONT believe in a God, seem to always try to ridicule those who do.

The problem here, as I see it, is that while you can freely interpret "invisible sky friend" as belittling your belief, I think it's a stretch to interpret it as belittling YOU. If you were a communist and I belittled communism, would you be right in taking that as though I were belittling you? However your original question was about belittling people (or I took it as such). Everyone holds some belief or another that some find ridiculous, for a whole host of reasons. Stating that you find a particular belief to be ridiculous, IMO, says nothing about the holder of those beliefs. Lots of good people hold ridiculous beliefs. It's OK. It's OK to hold such beliefs, and it's OK to call them ridiculous.

[Ike]

Sure some do. However I have yet to have an atheist ring my doorbell with pamphlets in hand.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It's been my personal experience with atheists (your mileage may vary) that they preach atheism harder than a Southern Baptist preacher preaches Revelations.It does seem some folks have/display a hatred or near hatred of Christianity. They get hostile about it here, and often equate Christian persecutions of the Middle Ages to Christian behavior of today, as though some people want to force moral behavior on the masses, as if our laws aren't written for moral people already.

[jk the sooner fan]

Sure some do. However I have yet to have an atheist ring my doorbell with pamphlets in hand.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/jksantee/A2CNkpLCUAAkUpkjpglarge.jpg

[jk the sooner fan]

so my beliefs are "ridiculous" - and God is an "invisible sky friend"


got it....

[MamaMia]

And Mama, if there is a God, I would hope that he would extend the same luxury of proof to the rest of us as he did to you. Until then, I don't get it. These guys don't get it either:

http://vimeo.com/15773748I already and totally believed that there was a God long before I was given proof of it. It was because of my unwavering belief that the proof came along at a time I needed comfort. I don't think what happened would have occurred if I had any doubt.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I already and totally believed that there was a God long before I was given proof of it. It was because of my unwavering belief that the proof came along at a time I needed comfort. I don't think what happened would have occurred if I had any doubt.nothing can explain something out of nothing. There's God. We don't know what makes Him? tick, either. God DOES seem to help those that help themselves, though.

[StoopTroup]

There is no proof.

There is faith and the brain God gave us all.

I've seen plenty of things that Science can't explain.

I also think it's fine if you want to believe Joel Osteen, Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Buddha, Mohammad, Sam Kinison, Jerry Lewis, Episcopalian Minister, Catholic Priests or a Rabbi....

IMO there is a higher power and as we grow old and have experiences....it becomes even more obvious that we are in need of a direction as we get closer to taking our last breath.

[Midtowner]

nothing can explain something out of nothing. There's God. We don't know what makes Him? tick, either. God DOES seem to help those that help themselves, though.

Or maybe those who help themselves help themselves.

Occam's razor.

[prrriiide]

It does seem some folks have/display a hatred or near hatred of Christianity. They get hostile about it here, and often equate Christian persecutions of the Middle Ages to Christian behavior of today, as though some people want to force moral behavior on the masses, as if our laws aren't written for moral people already.

Yet many Christians (from BOTH ends of the political spectrum) do actively "force moral behavior on the masses" through legislation, public spin, and broadcasted dogma.

Many people believe that gay marriage is wrong. Many others believe gays have the same rights as heteros. Many people believe that abortion is an abomination. Many others believe it is a woman's basic right. Many people see smoking pot as one of the first steps toward a degenerate and slovenly lifestyle. Many others see it as a harmless diversion from the stresses of the day or from medical hardships.

The point is, someone else's moral compass might not point to the same north as your moral compass. In the Great Game of Life, we're all trying to find our own ways as best we know how, so our own compass is the only one we can really trust. So if someone else's moral compass leads a different way from mine, that's fine. To them theirs is equally as valid as mine. I don't have to follow them, and it isn't up to me to judge them when they don't follow me. As long as they don't infringe on my right to follow my moral compass and as long as my moral compass doesn't lead me to do things harmful to others, I have an obligation to allow them the same lee-way.

The problems arise when people push their beliefs off on others without respecting that the other person might have sound, rational (to them) reasons for believing as they do and not respecting those reasons and rationalizations - stated or not.

To me a person's beliefs are between them and the God of their choosing. If I'm asked, I'll share, but I'm not going to proselytize or ram them down someone's throat. I'll find out if mine are right soon enough, and so will they.

[MamaMia]

Titus 3:9-11 - Avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

[StoopTroup]

proselytize

Awesome.

Word of the Day.

[Blue]

I don't have much to add here. Atheist gonna atheist and Christians gonna Christian. I just wanted to share what Gods been doing in my life the last year or so. Most of you know me as the message board drunk. So I know you'll take what I say with a grain of salt. I lived alot of my life as a professing Christian but really didn't show any evidence of having a relationship with God much less a disciple of Christ. But over the course of the last year for me personally he has given me such a deep revelation of his love and shown me just how real he is. In the course of this, I have begun sharing with whoever will listen bc the Gospel "the good news" is something when experienced that it can't be kept to yourself. He imparts love and grace and mercy and we as followers do the same to others. Some get a little self rigfhteous some go in their own power ahead of the spirit. But most do it not to earn favor with God but bc He first loved us and we owe it to an all sovereign, all powerful, eternally glorious God to serve and love him with everything we have. Most of us believe this decision is the only one that matters in this life and that its all gonna fade away except Jesus Christ and his kingdom. Thats why we do what we do.

So you could say its ignorant or a waste, but I would disagree. 1 Corinthians 1:18 -"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

He lived the life we couldn't live and died the death we deserved. All bc he loved us. This is a testimony I wrote for trip I took to Cuba a few months ago. I thought Id share. Its long and kinda basic but wth. Read it if ya want. Don't if you don't.

Hello, My name is Cody Spray. I was born and raised in the southern United States. I was exposed to God and church at an early age. My family and I were regular church attendees. As I grew into a teenager and became accountable for my choices, it became time for me to decide what I believed about God. I read in the bible that God was holy and just and perfect and that we being imperfect and sinful could not be in his presence. To solve this God sent his only son Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus was God born in the flesh. He lived a perfect life and taught men the ways of God. He was condemned and tried for blasphemy for claiming to be Gods son and was crucified as the atonement for our sins. A perfect and blameless final sacrifice that would be acceptable to God as the replacement for the punishment we deserved. Christ was buried and three days later rose from the dead conquering sin and death forever. I also learned that if I would confess Christ as Lord and accept his sacrifice, God would forgive me of my sin and I could be reconciled to God and spend eternity with him as opposed to separated from him. At that point I was convicted. I had been rebellious. I was disrespectful to authority. I was a self centered sinner. I needed God in my life. 1 Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
I was happy in my newfound faith, talking and trying to walk with God, but as an irresponsible teenager, I was not disciplined or diligent in reading my Bible, or surrounding myself with other believers, or guarding against sin and temptation. I didn’t understand how to truly live for and walk with God. I was loyal to old friends who didn’t know Christ and I didn’t understand you become like those you surround yourself with. Continued sin caused a lot of pain, depression, and anxiety in my life. I was in a cycle of sin, asking for forgiveness, but not truly repenting, and not changing my lifestyle. One could argue I wasn’t a follower of Christ at all. I surely didn’t act like it most of the time. I reflect on Ephesians 3:7- “I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of Gods grace given me through the working of his power.” The point is God chose me and he wasn’t going to let me go and he was going to teach me how to live for him. It boiled down to surrender. He was going to take my pride and my arrogance and my self reliance and crush it so that I would submit to him in every aspect of my life.
It sounds rough but it’s similar to how a shepherd deals with an unruly, rebellious, and willful sheep that doesn’t follow orders. The shepherd will break the sheeps leg, rendering it helpless. The shepherd will then carry the sheep wherever they would go. Over a period of time the sheep becomes completely dependent on its master and learns the sound of his voice. Once the leg had healed, the two become inseparable. Wherever you saw the shepherd, there the sheep was first in line and following him wherever he went. And so my heavenly Father did for me. He took away all that I put faith in and used for support and basically taught me that his grace was sufficient alone.
I submitted and still do daily and it has made all the difference. God knows the best path for me to take, so I will put all my trust in him. JOB 22: 21-23 says, “Yield now and be at peace with him, thereby good will come to you. Please receive instruction from his mouth, and establish his word in your heart. If you return to the almighty, you will be restored. If you remove unrighteousness from your tent.”
Today my life as a Christian is one of experiencing freedom from bondage and the chains of sin. Freedom from depression, anxiety, fear, and bad habits. When resting in Jesus’ perfect love, being filled by the Holy Spirit, I enjoy peace, joy, love, and hope. Now, when I am disobedient the spirit quickens my recognition of it and I ask for forgiveness and move forward, not in guilt and condemnation, but in absolute gratitude for Jesus Christ and that he loved me enough to free me from the wages of sin. I want to love him back. I want to bring him glory. I want to advance his kingdom by telling those I come in contact with about the King of kings and Lord of lords and how serving him and serving others makes all the difference in this life and in eternity. I can’t wait to meet him and I look forward to spending eternity in his never ending mercy and love.
But until then I have a responsibility. 2 Timothy 2:15 says, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” Matthew 5:16 -”Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your father who is in heaven.” And by the grace of God, one day I hope to hear him say, “Good job, faithful servant.”

[Blue]

Here's some pics from that trip. Now you could say Im posting these to say, "Look how great I am", but I say look how great God is. Somewhere I never thought Id be, going door to door in Artemesia, Cuba sitting in peoples homes sharing how good God is bringing people together.

Christianity isn't just an American thing. We actually get much of it wrong. Its about community and people and service. The Body of Christ and he is Head over all.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.340630619355108.80849.100002245188086&type=3

[olevetonahill]

Here's some pics from that trip. Now you could say Im posting these to say, "Look how great I am", but I say look how great God is. Somewhere I never thought Id be, going door to door in Artemesia, Cuba sitting in peoples homes sharing how good God is bringing people together.

Christianity isn't just an American thing. We actually get much of it wrong. Its about community and people and service. The Body of Christ and he is Head over all.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.340630619355108.80849.100002245188086&type=3

Link didnt work Bro

Glad to hear you doing well .

[8timechamps]

Yet many Christians (from BOTH ends of the political spectrum) do actively "force moral behavior on the masses" through legislation, public spin, and broadcasted dogma.

Many people believe that gay marriage is wrong. Many others believe gays have the same rights as heteros. Many people believe that abortion is an abomination. Many others believe it is a woman's basic right. Many people see smoking pot as one of the first steps toward a degenerate and slovenly lifestyle. Many others see it as a harmless diversion from the stresses of the day or from medical hardships.

The point is, someone else's moral compass might not point to the same north as your moral compass. In the Great Game of Life, we're all trying to find our own ways as best we know how, so our own compass is the only one we can really trust. So if someone else's moral compass leads a different way from mine, that's fine. To them theirs is equally as valid as mine. I don't have to follow them, and it isn't up to me to judge them when they don't follow me. As long as they don't infringe on my right to follow my moral compass and as long as my moral compass doesn't lead me to do things harmful to others, I have an obligation to allow them the same lee-way.

The problems arise when people push their beliefs off on others without respecting that the other person might have sound, rational (to them) reasons for believing as they do and not respecting those reasons and rationalizations - stated or not.

To me a person's beliefs are between them and the God of their choosing. If I'm asked, I'll share, but I'm not going to proselytize or ram them down someone's throat. I'll find out if mine are right soon enough, and so will they.

Well said.

[LiveLaughLove]

I don't have much to add here. Atheist gonna atheist and Christians gonna Christian. I just wanted to share what Gods been doing in my life the last year or so. Most of you know me as the message board drunk. So I know you'll take what I say with a grain of salt. I lived alot of my life as a professing Christian but really didn't show any evidence of having a relationship with God much less a disciple of Christ. But over the course of the last year for me personally he has given me such a deep revelation of his love and shown me just how real he is. In the course of this, I have begun sharing with whoever will listen bc the Gospel "the good news" is something when experienced that it can't be kept to yourself. He imparts love and grace and mercy and we as followers do the same to others. Some get a little self rigfhteous some go in their own power ahead of the spirit. But most do it not to earn favor with God but bc He first loved us and we owe it to an all sovereign, all powerful, eternally glorious God to serve and love him with everything we have. Most of us believe this decision is the only one that matters in this life and that its all gonna fade away except Jesus Christ and his kingdom. Thats why we do what we do.

So you could say its ignorant or a waste, but I would disagree. 1 Corinthians 1:18 -"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

He lived the life we couldn't live and died the death we deserved. All bc he loved us. This is a testimony I wrote for trip I took to Cuba a few months ago. I thought Id share. Its long and kinda basic but wth. Read it if ya want. Don't if you don't.

Hello, My name is Cody Spray. I was born and raised in the southern United States. I was exposed to God and church at an early age. My family and I were regular church attendees. As I grew into a teenager and became accountable for my choices, it became time for me to decide what I believed about God. I read in the bible that God was holy and just and perfect and that we being imperfect and sinful could not be in his presence. To solve this God sent his only son Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus was God born in the flesh. He lived a perfect life and taught men the ways of God. He was condemned and tried for blasphemy for claiming to be Gods son and was crucified as the atonement for our sins. A perfect and blameless final sacrifice that would be acceptable to God as the replacement for the punishment we deserved. Christ was buried and three days later rose from the dead conquering sin and death forever. I also learned that if I would confess Christ as Lord and accept his sacrifice, God would forgive me of my sin and I could be reconciled to God and spend eternity with him as opposed to separated from him. At that point I was convicted. I had been rebellious. I was disrespectful to authority. I was a self centered sinner. I needed God in my life. 1 Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
I was happy in my newfound faith, talking and trying to walk with God, but as an irresponsible teenager, I was not disciplined or diligent in reading my Bible, or surrounding myself with other believers, or guarding against sin and temptation. I didn’t understand how to truly live for and walk with God. I was loyal to old friends who didn’t know Christ and I didn’t understand you become like those you surround yourself with. Continued sin caused a lot of pain, depression, and anxiety in my life. I was in a cycle of sin, asking for forgiveness, but not truly repenting, and not changing my lifestyle. One could argue I wasn’t a follower of Christ at all. I surely didn’t act like it most of the time. I reflect on Ephesians 3:7- “I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of Gods grace given me through the working of his power.” The point is God chose me and he wasn’t going to let me go and he was going to teach me how to live for him. It boiled down to surrender. He was going to take my pride and my arrogance and my self reliance and crush it so that I would submit to him in every aspect of my life.
It sounds rough but it’s similar to how a shepherd deals with an unruly, rebellious, and willful sheep that doesn’t follow orders. The shepherd will break the sheeps leg, rendering it helpless. The shepherd will then carry the sheep wherever they would go. Over a period of time the sheep becomes completely dependent on its master and learns the sound of his voice. Once the leg had healed, the two become inseparable. Wherever you saw the shepherd, there the sheep was first in line and following him wherever he went. And so my heavenly Father did for me. He took away all that I put faith in and used for support and basically taught me that his grace was sufficient alone.
I submitted and still do daily and it has made all the difference. God knows the best path for me to take, so I will put all my trust in him. JOB 22: 21-23 says, “Yield now and be at peace with him, thereby good will come to you. Please receive instruction from his mouth, and establish his word in your heart. If you return to the almighty, you will be restored. If you remove unrighteousness from your tent.”
Today my life as a Christian is one of experiencing freedom from bondage and the chains of sin. Freedom from depression, anxiety, fear, and bad habits. When resting in Jesus’ perfect love, being filled by the Holy Spirit, I enjoy peace, joy, love, and hope. Now, when I am disobedient the spirit quickens my recognition of it and I ask for forgiveness and move forward, not in guilt and condemnation, but in absolute gratitude for Jesus Christ and that he loved me enough to free me from the wages of sin. I want to love him back. I want to bring him glory. I want to advance his kingdom by telling those I come in contact with about the King of kings and Lord of lords and how serving him and serving others makes all the difference in this life and in eternity. I can’t wait to meet him and I look forward to spending eternity in his never ending mercy and love.
But until then I have a responsibility. 2 Timothy 2:15 says, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” Matthew 5:16 -”Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your father who is in heaven.” And by the grace of God, one day I hope to hear him say, “Good job, faithful servant.”

Awesome and humbling Blue. Thanks for the post.

[OU68]

I worked with a PhD (Geophysics) from Russia - asked him the why do good? question. He was a good husband and father, kind and generous co-worker. He believed this life was all there is, so felt it was his duty to be kind, do good - since this was the only shot he had.

[C&CDean]

If this was the only shot we had I'd be raping/pillaging/burning like a mother****er man.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yet many Christians (from BOTH ends of the political spectrum) do actively "force moral behavior on the masses" through legislation, public spin, and broadcasted dogma.

Many people believe that gay marriage is wrong. Many others believe gays have the same rights as heteros. Many people believe that abortion is an abomination. Many others believe it is a woman's basic right. Many people see smoking pot as one of the first steps toward a degenerate and slovenly lifestyle. Many others see it as a harmless diversion from the stresses of the day or from medical hardships.

The point is, someone else's moral compass might not point to the same north as your moral compass. In the Great Game of Life, we're all trying to find our own ways as best we know how, so our own compass is the only one we can really trust. So if someone else's moral compass leads a different way from mine, that's fine. To them theirs is equally as valid as mine. I don't have to follow them, and it isn't up to me to judge them when they don't follow me. As long as they don't infringe on my right to follow my moral compass and as long as my moral compass doesn't lead me to do things harmful to others, I have an obligation to allow them the same lee-way.

The problems arise when people push their beliefs off on others without respecting that the other person might have sound, rational (to them) reasons for believing as they do and not respecting those reasons and rationalizations - stated or not.

To me a person's beliefs are between them and the God of their choosing. If I'm asked, I'll share, but I'm not going to proselytize or ram them down someone's throat. I'll find out if mine are right soon enough, and so will they.This is what you get from the Left. change and transition, and let's disregard American laws if we like, since they're for god-believers, believers that unborn children are humans, and that they must force acceptance of homesexuality into the minds of all citizens. Obeary and the rest of the dems and RINOS are their political team.

[OU68]

If this was the only shot we had I'd be raping/pillaging/burning like a mother****er man.

Damn good thing you're a believer!

[tator]

If this was the only shot we had I'd be raping/pillaging/burning like a mother****er man.

Joke, I hope.

The question "why do bad?", is just as valid as the "why do good?" question. Christian or not, we all have choices and consequences. Some people believe they have the consequences here on earth and after that also, some believe it's just here on earth. There are still consequences though.

[C&CDean]

Joke, I hope.

The question "why do bad?", is just as valid as the "why do good?" question. Christian or not, we all have choices and consequences. Some people believe they have the consequences here on earth and after that also, some believe it's just here on earth. There are still consequences though.

Not really? Is having all the sex you want with whomever you want bad? Is owning everything you see bad - and if you don't own it, you take it? Why the hell not? If this is all there is, why not take all you can and to hell with everybody else? Seriously. Oh, because it's not "good" to do that? Says who?

[SoonerAtKU]

This is what you get from the Left. change and transition, and let's disregard American laws if we like, since they're for god-believers, believers that unborn children are humans, and that they must force acceptance of homesexuality into the minds of all citizens. Obeary and the rest of the dems and RINOS are their political team.

Who's advocating disregarding the laws of the land? I'm confused.

I'll say this regarding the topic at hand. I'm an atheist, and don't have a connection to the faith-based worldview. My wife and I have discussed how we would feel were our daughter to become involved in a church or other faithful organization. I'd imagine this talk has been had in reverse about atheist kids as well. We've decided to support her in whatever way we can, if that connection is something she needs to be fulfilled in life. I'd never talk down to or condescend to my daughter about her beliefs, so why would I do it to anyone else?

I'm not the same as someone who is religious, and that's perfectly fine by me. I wish it were fine with everyone.

[jk the sooner fan]

good question raised by Dean - but i think that assumes that we're born innately evil??

[tator]

Not really? Is having all the sex you want with whomever you want bad?
STDs, unwanted children, a gaggle of women clamoring after you
Is owning everything you see bad - and if you don't own it, you take it? Why the hell not? If this is all there is, why not take all you can and to hell with everybody else?
Sure, that would work just fine until you were arrested or killed in the process.

There are reprecussions for everything we do in life. Real, physical reprecussions. Can I sleep in today? Sure you can, but you might lose your job. Can I murder someone? Of course you can, but you'll likely go to jail. Nothing is stopping you from doing anything, except the consequences. The same consequences athiests live with, you just believe in more of them in another life.

[SoonerAtKU]

Not really? Is having all the sex you want with whomever you want bad? Is owning everything you see bad - and if you don't own it, you take it? Why the hell not? If this is all there is, why not take all you can and to hell with everybody else? Seriously. Oh, because it's not "good" to do that? Says who?

This part I do feel good about jumping into. We're communal creatures, humans. We're weaker, more frail, and with fewer defenses than most of our would-be predators. What do we have in our favor? Cognition, opposable thumbs, and community. We look out for each other because we're better off in the long run, and it doesn't have to be fear of hellfire or a promise of 72 virgins to make it worth our while to not kill someone who might watch our backs while we sleep in the cave. Sure, there were Alpha males and leaders who did the things you talk about, but as in most cases, if they pressed too hard, the rest began to see them as a predator, formed a new community, and ousted his ***. These concepts were around long before the concept of organized religion, and are easily explainable through biology and anthropology.

[jk the sooner fan]

STDs, unwanted children, a gaggle of women clamoring after you
Sure, that would work just fine until you were arrested or killed in the process.

There are reprecussions for everything we do in life. Real, physical reprecussions. Can I sleep in today? Sure you can, but you might lose your job. Can I murder someone? Of course you can, but you'll likely go to jail. Nothing is stopping you from doing anything, except the consequences. The same consequences athiests live with, you just believe in more of them in another life.

ok but what is the basis for those arrests? the root of those laws we live by (not speaking for Dean but i think thats part of what he was getting at)

[tator]

I may confused, are we talking about the Dark Ages or current times?

[tator]

ok but what is the basis for those arrests? the root of those laws we live by (not speaking for Dean but i think thats part of what he was getting at)
Ok, so the question really is about the Dark Ages before "civilization".

The question was, if there is no god, why do good. The reasons I gave are why.

Whether those consequences are the government, karma, or somebody that's a little more badass than me; doesn't matter. They are still consequences.

[jk the sooner fan]

Ok, so the question really is about the Dark Ages before "civilization".

that doesnt make any sense.......even in the Medieval times - they had a sense of order and societal norms, rules, laws, etc

[tator]

that doesnt make any sense.......even in the Medieval times - they had a sense of order and societal norms, rules, laws, etc

So you're asking, if there are no laws (but there are), what causes people to be good without God?

[jk the sooner fan]

So you're asking, if there are no laws (but there are), what causes people to be good without God?

i think thats what Dean was asking

[tator]

Why ask that?

[Jacie]

So you're asking, if there are no laws (but there are), what causes people to be good without God?

I think it has something to do with the veneer of civilization (and laws) that keep us from going caveman on everyone.

[jk the sooner fan]

are we born innately evil? or is that too deep a question for a message board? :)

[C&CDean]

It's all way too deep for me. But I'll tell you that there's nothing more selfish than a little child. Feed me. Pleasure me. I want. Now.

And all those laws and regs over the eons? Where'd they come from? Whoever was the "god" at the time I'm thinking. This "god" could have been a chief/emporer/etc., or it might have been a bunch of wise guys going "dudes, it ain't cool to do xxx. God/Zeus/Crom/Dagon/Set/or even that murderous SOB Muhammad might not dig that ****.

Who the **** knows?

[8timechamps]

are we born innately evil? or is that too deep a question for a message board? :)

I don't think so. Take the emotion of love as an example, we weren't taught to love our mothers, it was an inherent emotion. Hate, on the other hand, is a learned emotion. I doubt there were cavemen that hated other cavemen because they let their dinosaur poop in their neighbors cave.

[8timechamps]

Why ask that?

I asked the question initially. If you're curious as to why I asked, go back to my original post. I'm much too lazy to retype it now.

[MamaMia]

Here is a question for the Christians on the board:

When you sin and ask for forgiveness, are you of the belief that God just forgives you and thats all there is to it, or do you think there is some divine penance if none befalls you from man?

[tator]

Thank you for giving this thread purpose again, Mama. We had discussed ourselves into a corner.

[C&CDean]

If you don't think we're born evil, go to a daycare center and watch all those selfish brats. The #1 thing you'll hear is "MINE!"

Did they learn this behavior from their parents? I doubt it. They just want it all.

And whoever talked about a baby loving it's mother? No they don't. Look no further than a cow/calf relationship. The baby needs it's mother. It's totally reliant on it's mother. If it could get what it needs from somebody else then it would. Love is learned.

Look at cats. Evil little ****ers through and through. Selfish, conniving, and if you think your cat loves you then you're bat**** crazy. If your neighbor puts out the extra-juicy salmon spleen food your cat will quit you like a bad habit.

Of course I don't really have an opinion on any of it. Like I said, too deep...

[tator]

You know....some would say that people are "animalistic" in their natural state.

[Blue]

Here is a question for the Christians on the board:

When you sin and ask for forgiveness, are you of the belief that God just forgives you and thats all there is to it, or do you think there is some divine penance if none befalls you from man?

Sin has consequences and should be recognized, repented, and mourned over...for a very a brief time. Once we accepted Jesus Christ we were then dead to sin and its dominion over us. We were transferred into the dominion of grace. We don't have to be guilty and shamed(How can you live victoriously if thats the case?). He gives us the power to overcome sin. God has forgiven my sins past present and future and there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. When God sees me, he sees the Righteousness of Christ. Which makes us sons and heirs and blameless in his sight.

I will continue to struggle with sin until I die, but my goal is to die daily to my flesh/self and surrender every aspect of life to him.

I don't see anywhere in the bible where purgatory is an option.

[8timechamps]

If you don't think we're born evil, go to a daycare center and watch all those selfish brats. The #1 thing you'll hear is "MINE!"

Did they learn this behavior from their parents? I doubt it. They just want it all.

And whoever talked about a baby loving it's mother? No they don't. Look no further than a cow/calf relationship. The baby needs it's mother. It's totally reliant on it's mother. If it could get what it needs from somebody else then it would. Love is learned.

Look at cats. Evil little ****ers through and through. Selfish, conniving, and if you think your cat loves you then you're bat**** crazy. If your neighbor puts out the extra-juicy salmon spleen food your cat will quit you like a bad habit.

Of course I don't really have an opinion on any of it. Like I said, too deep...

I disagree that love is learned, but you do have a good point about the baby/mama thing. In that instance, "need" is a better word. Also, kids are selfish, I wouldn't say evil. Well, some of them may be evil.

[MamaMia]

How do you explain babies who are born early in prenatal units who improve and grow at a faster rate the more they have their mothers touch, or hear the sound of their voice? Maybe that is a sort of a dependence based familiarity, but I think its also the beginning of the love a child feels for their mommy. I do know they feel love coming from the people who hold and caress them.

[8timechamps]

How do you explain babies who are born early in prenatal units who improve and grow at a faster rate the more they have their mothers touch, or hear the sound of their voice? Maybe that is a sort of a dependence based familiarity, but I think its also the beginning of the love a child feels for their mommy. I do know they feel love coming from the people who hold and caress them.

Yeah Glen!!! See Dean, we are SOOOO much smarter than you! ;)

[Blue]

Since the fall of Adam we are all born into sin. Which means no matter how "Good" we think we are it is all filthy rags in the presence of a holy, just, and perfect God. Therefore we need grace and mercy and a new heart and mind. The Cross substitutes our inadequacies for Christ ultimate adequacy. We can't earn Gods favor but we can accept the free gift of Gods love i.e. Christs sacrifice and atonement.

[C&CDean]

How do you explain babies who are born early in prenatal units who improve and grow at a faster rate the more they have their mothers touch, or hear the sound of their voice? Maybe that is a sort of a dependence based familiarity, but I think its also the beginning of the love a child feels for their mommy. I do know they feel love coming from the people who hold and caress them.

Uh, they're ****ing retards?

Just kidding. Sorta.

Then, when they're 16 they still go full-on effed up dillweed child. That's how it works, no matter how much mommies wanna go "oooooh, ain't my baby cute/special/wonderful/blessed/charmed. I mean it is what it is.

[8timechamps]

Uh, they're ****ing retards?

Okay, that was funny...


bastards!

[MamaMia]

Uh, they're ****ing retards?

Just kidding. Sorta.

Then, when they're 16 they still go full-on effed up dillweed child. That's how it works, no matter how much mommies wanna go "oooooh, ain't my baby cute/special/wonderful/blessed/charmed. I mean it is what it is. I have this little tiny 2 year old granddaughter. Every time I leave her home, she will grab a little flower or a pretty pebble out of the garden to run and hand to me for a memento of remembrance. Thats love. When she comes to visit she always wants to leave something of hers behind, a hair barrette, a page she colored; just some piece of her. Nobody taught that to her. She just does things to try to make people happy. :)

[StoopTroup]

Not really? Is having all the sex you want with whomever you want bad? Is owning everything you see bad - and if you don't own it, you take it? Why the hell not? If this is all there is, why not take all you can and to hell with everybody else? Seriously. Oh, because it's not "good" to do that? Says who?

Definitely not Joel Osteen?

Hmmmm....Mother Teresa did it a bit differently.

Ummmmm....Ghandi?

Let's see....John, Mark, Luke, Matthew...

Some how there has been a lot of what you describe you'd be doing but, thing is, it has never been that way. People have fought to keep others from taking it all otherwise Hitler would be running it all.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

If you have no belief in God (or a superior being), what's the point of doing "good" on earth?

I know it seems like bait, but it's really not. I've wondered about this for quiet a while, and am just curious. I believe that I will be held accountable for my actions in the afterlife, so it has certainly molded the way I live. I'm just curious what the other side of the coin looks like.

I've never understood why one would need to believe in a superior being to want to be a good person. What motivates someone to desire to think logically? What motivated Liebnitz to want to construct a product rule for differential calculus? He didn't get the idea from a Bible and he wasn't motivated by a superior being to do so.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

How do you explain babies who are born early in prenatal units who improve and grow at a faster rate the more they have their mothers touch, or hear the sound of their voice? Maybe that is a sort of a dependence based familiarity, but I think its also the beginning of the love a child feels for their mommy. I do know they feel love coming from the people who hold and caress them.Hideous and phantasmagoric religious puf-quackery of the worst order, exposing you, that you not only believe in the possibility of a God, but also a belief that there's a natural, God-given connection between mother and child.(as if the child was an actual human of some sort)...the shame you must feel!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

i'm not sure this plays into your question - but i cant remember a time when a group of atheists banded together and provided assistance to the hungry, the downtrodden, etc etc



Maybe many don't think to form organizations based on what they don't believe. I'm not a tofu fan, but I don't organize dinner parties for tofu haters. However, I might organize a taco crawl because I like good tacos

I've known several non-Christians who volunteer for Habitat for Humanity - a christian-based organization - but the reason is not to rub elbows with Christians, but rather, with other people who want to help the less fortunate, regardless of religious belief. They simply want to help those who are less fortunate. Helping others feels good.

[yermom]

Hideous and phantasmagoric religious puf-quackery of the worst order, exposing you, that you not only believe in the possibility of a God, but also a belief that there's a natural, God-given connection between mother and child.(as if the child was an actual human of some sort)...the shame you must feel!

finally some sense from RLIMC

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

finally some sense from RLIMCyou're a good fan, Charlie Brown

[Jason White's Third Knee]

If this was the only shot we had I'd be raping/pillaging/burning like a mother****er man.

That's a sociopath, not an atheist. Atheists are typically rational.

Faith= belief without proof. Religious people hang their hats on their unwavering faith.

Atheists generally find faith to be irrational, ie, lots of stuff in the bible reads like storybook magic. Legend. Myth. Parting of the red sea, staff turning in to a snake, raising the dead, etc.

Long list of stuff that I would have to see to believe. If you have faith then you just believe it. Personally I think that doesn't jive.

Atheists are looked down upon like devil worshipers. It's ridiculous. We don't believe in the devil either, unless you mean Nick Saban.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

Here is a question for the Christians on the board:

When you sin and ask for forgiveness, are you of the belief that God just forgives you and thats all there is to it, or do you think there is some divine penance if none befalls you from man?

Not trying to pick on you but this is thought provoking.

According to the bible it is rare that God simply forgives. Sacrifices must be made. In the old testament one would kill a goat as a sacrifice. We've seen tv shows that depict a virgin being sacrificed to a volcano god and dismissed it as silly primitive nonsense, right? The virgin/goat will appease the angry god.

The new plan was for God to come down to earth as his semi mortal son and teach a bit before being tortured and sacrificed back to God. Sins are taken care of... Unless you are a nonbeliever, then it was all for nothing Why not just wave your hand and forgive Or make it 2 goats? I am simplifying, yes, but it seems that simple to me.

Again it comes down to faith.

[jk the sooner fan]

Maybe many don't think to form organizations based on what they don't believe. I'm not a tofu fan, but I don't organize dinner parties for tofu haters. However, I might organize a taco crawl because I like good tacos

I've known several non-Christians who volunteer for Habitat for Humanity - a christian-based organization - but the reason is not to rub elbows with Christians, but rather, with other people who want to help the less fortunate, regardless of religious belief. They simply want to help those who are less fortunate. Helping others feels good.

really? tofu eaters?

that's quite the argument stretch there! great job

[cleller]

Several years ago I read an article in a Money magazine that really caught my attention. The article was on risk, but featured a discussion of Blaise Pascal's thoughts on God's existence. He postulated "God is, or He is not."

Pascal explained that wagering on God's existence was not a simple bet. If you wager that God is; and are wrong, you have not lost a great deal at the end of your life. If you wager that God is not; and are wrong, the consequences of being wrong are far worse.

It's a very interesting, quick article, and not based on religion, but investment thinking:

http://www.buckingham.coop/images/E0047601/pascal.pdf

[jk the sooner fan]

i've heard that argument many times and frankly - i think if the only reason you bet on the fact that God's existence is so you're not wrong in the end - then you're missing the point

Christianity is about a relationship with God, and people

[sanantoniosooner]

Believing for no other reason than "fire insurance" isn't really believing IMO.

[cleller]

Believing for no other reason than "fire insurance" isn't really believing IMO.

Which brings up another paradox. For the true believer the eventual outcome could make for some great "you'll get yours" feelings. Except that as a believer, you don't really want to see any fall to that fate. At least not publicly.

[jk the sooner fan]

Which brings up another paradox. For the true believer the eventual outcome could make for some great "you'll get yours" feelings. Except that as a believer, you don't really want to see any fall to that fate. At least not publicly.

those feelings are sinful - it's pride, hubris, etc etc

[sanantoniosooner]

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" isn't vindictive and is our standard...even when we fall short.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

really? tofu eaters?

that's quite the argument stretch there! great job

I think you misread the statement. I didn't mention anything about tofu eaters.

[jk the sooner fan]

Maybe many don't think to form organizations based on what they don't believe. I'm not a tofu fan, but I don't organize dinner parties for tofu haters. However, I might organize a taco crawl because I like good tacos

I've known several non-Christians who volunteer for Habitat for Humanity - a christian-based organization - but the reason is not to rub elbows with Christians, but rather, with other people who want to help the less fortunate, regardless of religious belief. They simply want to help those who are less fortunate. Helping others feels good.

tofu haters, not eaters......still a huge stretch with that comparison

we're talking about two groups of people - 1) the group that believes in a higher power; b) the group that doesnt


injecting a third group of people who prefer a healthy but nasty tasting food - has zero to do with the discussion....i.e. strawman

[SanJoaquinSooner]

tofu haters, not eaters......still a huge stretch with that comparison

we're talking about two groups of people - 1) the group that believes in a higher power; b) the group that doesnt


injecting a third group of people who prefer a healthy but nasty tasting food - has zero to do with the discussion....i.e. strawman

It's an exemplar for the idea of organizing a group based on something that does not appeal to you. You brought it up.

It does not follow that because tofu does not appeal to me that I would be inclined to organize a group of like-minded folks.
Similarly, it does not follow that because the concept of a higher power does not appeal to someone that he would be inclined to organize a group of like-minded folks.

Good job following the argument to my 2nd paragraph. An athiest may very well participate in charitable organizations and events, but not based on the religious beliefs (or lack of) of fellow participants -- but rather based on a shared belief that helping others is a good thing to do.

[C&CDean]

That's a sociopath, not an atheist. Atheists are typically rational.

Faith= belief without proof. Religious people hang their hats on their unwavering faith.

Atheists generally find faith to be irrational, ie, lots of stuff in the bible reads like storybook magic. Legend. Myth. Parting of the red sea, staff turning in to a snake, raising the dead, etc.

Long list of stuff that I would have to see to believe. If you have faith then you just believe it. Personally I think that doesn't jive.

Atheists are looked down upon like devil worshipers. It's ridiculous. We don't believe in the devil either, unless you mean Nick Saban.

Did I anywhere say raping/pillaging/burning were done by atheists? And what do you mean "sociopath?" I understand what a sociopath is and all, but why would someone who wants it all be a sociopath - unless there is a norm or standard set saying "if you exhibit x behavior then you qualify as a sociopath - and where would this norm/standard come from?

If there's no God, no afterlife, etc. then why the hell not? Complete and total survival of the fittest. No quarter asked or given. No charity, no mercy. Dog eat dog.

My question is why wouldn't an atheist be compelled to go all Berzerker? WTH not? Conscience? Why have one if there's no ramifications/punishment? Or could a conscience by something God has given us? Or, let's just say we drop all the raping/pillaging stuff and go with oh....adultery? Why not bang your neighbor's old lady? The only place I know it says that's a no-no is in the Bible. My bulls bang all the cows and heifers they can stick their pecker into. It works in the animal world, why not with humans?

Deep subject.

[tator]

tofu haters, not eaters......still a huge stretch with that comparison

we're talking about two groups of people - 1) the group that believes in a higher power; b) the group that doesnt


injecting a third group of people who prefer a healthy but nasty tasting food - has zero to do with the discussion....i.e. strawman

By the way, I'm not an athiest. I'm more of an agnostic.

Take THAT trainwreck thread!!

[tator]

Did I anywhere say raping/pillaging/burning were done by atheists? And what do you mean "sociopath?" I understand what a sociopath is and all, but why would someone who wants it all be a sociopath - unless there is a norm or standard set saying "if you exhibit x behavior then you qualify as a sociopath - and where would this norm/standard come from?

If there's no God, no afterlife, etc. then why the hell not? Complete and total survival of the fittest. No quarter asked or given. No charity, no mercy. Dog eat dog.

My question is why wouldn't an atheist be compelled to go all Berzerker? WTH not? Conscience? Why have one if there's no ramifications/punishment? Or could a conscience by something God has given us? Or, let's just say we drop all the raping/pillaging stuff and go with oh....adultery? Why not bang your neighbor's old lady? The only place I know it says that's a no-no is in the Bible. My bulls bang all the cows and heifers they can stick their pecker into. It works in the animal world, why not with humans?

Deep subject.

It's really not that deep.

By the way, that is 100% sociapathic behavior.

so·ci·o·path   /ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθ, ˈsoʊʃi-/ Show Spelled[soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-]
noun Psychiatry . a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial (http://www.soonerfans.com/browse/antisocial), often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

[C&CDean]

Dude, really? You needed to post a Webster's "wtf is a sociopath?" C'mon man...

Who says it's antisocial? I mean who has determined this? Where do the norms come from? Why is it wrong to be antisocial? And yes, it is a very deep subject.

[jk the sooner fan]

Did I anywhere say raping/pillaging/burning were done by atheists? And what do you mean "sociopath?" I understand what a sociopath is and all, but why would someone who wants it all be a sociopath - unless there is a norm or standard set saying "if you exhibit x behavior then you qualify as a sociopath - and where would this norm/standard come from?

If there's no God, no afterlife, etc. then why the hell not? Complete and total survival of the fittest. No quarter asked or given. No charity, no mercy. Dog eat dog.

My question is why wouldn't an atheist be compelled to go all Berzerker? WTH not? Conscience? Why have one if there's no ramifications/punishment? Or could a conscience by something God has given us? Or, let's just say we drop all the raping/pillaging stuff and go with oh....adultery? Why not bang your neighbor's old lady? The only place I know it says that's a no-no is in the Bible. My bulls bang all the cows and heifers they can stick their pecker into. It works in the animal world, why not with humans?

Deep subject.


Christopher Hitchens died (last year I think) -considered highly intellectual, wrote books - and debated the whole atheist agenda..did not believe in God at all

before his death - he issued a statement (and i cant find it on the googles) that basically said - that any utterance of a deathbed conversion to Christ - was to be attributed to the drugs he was on at the time, or the effects of chemo on his brain - and that Christians should not take any such utterances as a real conversion.

A couple of thoughts come to mind: if he truly deep down believed as he said he did - leaving not one single percent chance that God truly did exist - then why would he ever need to issue such a statement?

and if he believes in evolution and the notion of natural selection - the scientific thinning of the herd so to speak - then why did he - and so many other atheists fight natural disease with medicine - especially cancer? whats the point.....if nature has selected you to die early from disease - why isn't that accepted for what it is?

what's the point of fighting for your life at that point - if there is no after life or here after? I understand that we have advanced medical science that prolongs our life and that "if its available why would anybody turn it down" - so i'm speaking philosophically

[tator]

I think a definition of sociopath seemed pretty relevant, since you were unclear.

And...ok. You seem to be coming unhinged. I'll exit.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Did I anywhere say raping/pillaging/burning were done by atheists? And what do you mean "sociopath?" I understand what a sociopath is and all, but why would someone who wants it all be a sociopath - unless there is a norm or standard set saying "if you exhibit x behavior then you qualify as a sociopath - and where would this norm/standard come from?

If there's no God, no afterlife, etc. then why the hell not? Complete and total survival of the fittest. No quarter asked or given. No charity, no mercy. Dog eat dog.
My question is why wouldn't an atheist be compelled to go all Berzerker? WTH not? Conscience? Why have one if there's no ramifications/punishment? Or could a conscience by something God has given us? Or, let's just say we drop all the raping/pillaging stuff and go with oh....adultery? Why not bang your neighbor's old lady? The only place I know it says that's a no-no is in the Bible. My bulls bang all the cows and heifers they can stick their pecker into. It works in the animal world, why not with humans?

Deep subject.

or maybe in millions of years of evolution having a conscience and not banging your neighbor's mate has had advantages in surviving.

[8timechamps]

I've never understood why one would need to believe in a superior being to want to be a good person. What motivates someone to desire to think logically? What motivated Liebnitz to want to construct a product rule for differential calculus? He didn't get the idea from a Bible and he wasn't motivated by a superior being to do so.

I hope you didn't take the question as "what a moron!". The reason I asked is because I've always believed in God, so from my perspective, it's very easy for me to understand what motivates people to "do the right thing". Just trying to gain some perspective from the other side. Not really easy to explain my thought process over the internet, but there's more to it than "why do good?". Make sense?

[8timechamps]

Did I anywhere say raping/pillaging/burning were done by atheists? And what do you mean "sociopath?" I understand what a sociopath is and all, but why would someone who wants it all be a sociopath - unless there is a norm or standard set saying "if you exhibit x behavior then you qualify as a sociopath - and where would this norm/standard come from?

If there's no God, no afterlife, etc. then why the hell not? Complete and total survival of the fittest. No quarter asked or given. No charity, no mercy. Dog eat dog.

My question is why wouldn't an atheist be compelled to go all Berzerker? WTH not? Conscience? Why have one if there's no ramifications/punishment? Or could a conscience by something God has given us? Or, let's just say we drop all the raping/pillaging stuff and go with oh....adultery? Why not bang your neighbor's old lady? The only place I know it says that's a no-no is in the Bible. My bulls bang all the cows and heifers they can stick their pecker into. It works in the animal world, why not with humans?

Deep subject.

Dean elaborates on my question much better than I did.

[MamaMia]

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" isn't vindictive and is our standard...even when we fall short. I think its more complicated than that. What if you know what you have done is wrong and you are also living a life failing to forgive others who trespass against you? :D

[C&CDean]

I think a definition of sociopath seemed pretty relevant, since you were unclear.

And...ok. You seem to be coming unhinged. I'll exit.

Unhinged? Somebody named tator is calling me unhinged? That's rich.

[C&CDean]

or maybe in millions of years of evolution having a conscience and not banging your neighbor's mate has had advantages in surviving.

Nice copout. Weak, but nice.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Believing for no other reason than "fire insurance" isn't really believing IMO.something from nothing, what's not to believe? God's nature is another matter, of course.

[jk the sooner fan]

i think faith in God is largely on his terms....not our own (deism)

we have the freedom of choice to make the decision to believe....or not

but if we believe and shape/mold God into what we want him to be - then it's not really the same thing

[SoonerAtKU]

Several years ago I read an article in a Money magazine that really caught my attention. The article was on risk, but featured a discussion of Blaise Pascal's thoughts on God's existence. He postulated "God is, or He is not."

Pascal explained that wagering on God's existence was not a simple bet. If you wager that God is; and are wrong, you have not lost a great deal at the end of your life. If you wager that God is not; and are wrong, the consequences of being wrong are far worse.

It's a very interesting, quick article, and not based on religion, but investment thinking:

http://www.buckingham.coop/images/E0047601/pascal.pdf

Pascal's Wager also presupposes that the only God is the Christian God and that the choice is believing based on that set of rules. It ignores the fact that most religions preach that non-believers are not saved, so if any one of those happens to be "correct" then it by default makes all of the others incorrect. You not only have to choose to believe, but in the precisely correct manner, which decreases your odds by orders of magnitude.

[sanantoniosooner]

I think its more complicated than that. What if you know what you have done is wrong and you are also living a life failing to forgive others who trespass against you? :D

True forgiveness is not complicated at all. Holding grudges, judging with unequal weights, and conditional forgiveness is complicated.

Where I think you are coming from is a discussion of grace. It's free, but we cheapen it when we continue to live a lifestyle that implies we don't appreciate the cost of it. Along the same lines scripture does say that we can't be forgiven if we don't also offer forgiveness.

But my response was specifically for the comment of the "paradox" of christians that have a "you'll get yours" attitude. That's not the heart of God at all, and any christian that thinks that way isn't resembling Dad very much.

[sanantoniosooner]

something from nothing, what's not to believe? God's nature is another matter, of course.

This is so abstract that I'm not going to try and understand what you meant or respond to the content. If you'd like to elaborate a little I'd be more than happy to "get it".

[jk the sooner fan]

if you want to read about cheap grace - pick up Dietrich Bonhoefer's "The Cost of Discipleship" and read the first chapter....he's a brilliant theologian - but SUPER tough to read...most can pick out enough nuggets to get his message

[Skysooner]

I'm more of an agnostic rather than an atheist. I was a Christian for many years and was a deacon/elder/board head of two different churches in my 30s. I eventually came to realize that I didn't believe in the God portrayed in the Bible. There were too many inconsistencies for me. There is the one part of the Ten Commandments that says "for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me". This was always conveniently left off in most talks I heard on the commandments in church. I also eventually came to realize that people in the church were no better than the ones I knew that were not religious. They were just more hypocritical about it all.

I fully believe that we learn our mores from being raised by parents in the right way with some of them just being inherent as we grow up. There are always going to be the deviants (sociopaths, psychopaths, etc.) that aren't born with any sort of filter. Religion or being raised with parents that teach right from wrong is going to do nothing to those. I don't steal, because I don't want to be stolen from. I don't cheat on my wife as I love her and don't want to hurt her. I try and teach my children right from wrong, and I don't need the threat of going to hell for them to get it.

I don't try and ridicule other's beliefs as I do believe that the vast majority of people who go to churches aren't anymore hypocritical and do the right things and certaintly probably think about it more than I do. There are certain things I don't like however which will cause me to speak up.

I don't like the pro-creation science crowd. Creation is not a science and should not be taught as such.

I am pro gay marriage/civil unions/whatever you want to call it. This mainly harkens back to equal treatment for all. We have many gay/lesbian couples raising children these days, and it behooves us to protect these families and couples.

I don't like it when it is God's will when anything bad happens. If so, this is a God that is an a****** which I believe someone else mentioned above.

I have had Christians ask if my autistic son is demon-possessed. Huh? Really? You want me to take anything coming out of your mouth seriously?

I also get seriously tired of being looked at crosswise if I say I'm agnostic/atheist. Yes, your belief system says you should try and convert me, but it is likely I know more about the Bible and Christianity than the person who is trying to convert me. I came to my beliefs through lots and lots of reading, research and soul-searching. As an agnostic/atheist I get criticized for my beliefs, so if someone hits me there, I will hit back. Sorry, I didn't mean this to be so long, but I had a lot to say.

[sanantoniosooner]

Agreed.

A more recent book by John Bevere called Extraordinary talks about grace in a light I've never heard it preached/discussed. Changed a whole lot of my mindsets. It's a very easy read also.

[tator]

Unhinged? Somebody named tator is calling me unhinged? That's rich.

umm... good one?

you seemed like you were getting upset, that's all.

[sanantoniosooner]

I've got to state that this is probably the most well reasoned person named tator I've ever met.

[marfacowboy]

Sure some do. However I have yet to have an atheist ring my doorbell with pamphlets in hand.

Yep. Christians believe their god is the only true god. Anyone that doesn't accept Jesus as their Savior is going to hell. They recruit and invade your privacy, and now they're attempting to use their belief system to influence public policy.

[jk the sooner fan]

Yep. Christians believe their god is the only true god. Anyone that doesn't accept Jesus as their Savior is going to hell. They recruit and invade your privacy, and now they're attempting to use their belief system to influence public policy.

well yeah - thats kind of whats in scripture........are we supposed to believe something contrary just to suit your sensitivities?

[sanantoniosooner]

Apparently you guys have never met highly motivated atheists.

They do exist. the Atheist Agenda on the campus of UTSA is more offensive and in your face than any Christian group I've ever seen.

[marfacowboy]

or maybe in millions of years of evolution having a conscience and not banging your neighbor's mate has had advantages in surviving.

This is precisely correct.

Joel Kovel had some interesting comments on the subject:

In the current orthodoxy the term "struggle" is endowed with Hobbesian and Social-Darwinian meanings: sturggle is the war of all against all, and the survival of the fittest in a regime of continual mutual agression. This particular notion was not Darwin's, and it is not only ideologically distorted, but factually wrong.

By no means do all creatures behave in this way. In fact, no creature, not even the "king of the jungle," endures wholly through predation; while for the simplest creatures, those microscopic cellular beings on which the entire biosphere rests, the Social-Darwinian notion is without meaning.

The first sustainable systems, the mat creatures or stromatolites, whose lineage goes 3 billion years back to the Precambrian (roughly 2.4 billion years before the emergence of more complex multicellular organisms), and that still endure in certain protected locales, are composed of layers of prokaryotic bacteria, the topmost, thin as as sheet of paper, doing photosynthesis, the lower layers breaking down the waste products of the upper by fermentation, the whole given structure and nutrient by trapped grains of minerals.

It was a sustainable ecosystem in miniature. Reflected in the state of the nasent biological world it is clear that cooperation and coexistence were a part of life close to its inception. Existence at base can be thought of a reciprocal rather than competitive.

[marfacowboy]

well yeah - thats kind of whats in scripture........are we supposed to believe something contrary just to suit your sensitivities?

And in doing so you disparage other religions and the choices of others. Just like Muslims.

[sanantoniosooner]

Looks like God knew what He was doing ;)

[sanantoniosooner]

The anger is strong in this one

[jk the sooner fan]

And in doing so you disparage other religions and the choices of others. Just like Muslims.

and i'm perfectly fine with that. Thats what I signed up for when I made a choice to believe in my faith tradition - and that faith tells me there is only one God - and he has only one Son (different than there is only one Oklahoma) - and that to recognize any other is in violation of those beliefs

[marfacowboy]

and i'm perfectly fine with that. Thats what I signed up for when I made a choice to believe in my faith tradition - and that faith tells me there is only one God - and he has only one Son (different than there is only one Oklahoma) - and that to recognize any other is in violation of those beliefs

So, we come back full circle to the orignal question.


Why do Yall insist on ridiculing those who Believe in God and Or Jesus?
I dont understand your thinking on this. Cant Yall just let em go on in their beliefs and leave them alone.

[MamaMia]

True forgiveness is not complicated at all. Holding grudges, judging with unequal weights, and conditional forgiveness is complicated.

Where I think you are coming from is a discussion of grace. It's free, but we cheapen it when we continue to live a lifestyle that implies we don't appreciate the cost of it. Along the same lines scripture does say that we can't be forgiven if we don't also offer forgiveness.But my response was specifically for the comment of the "paradox" of christians that have a "you'll get yours" attitude. That's not the heart of God at all, and any christian that thinks that way isn't resembling Dad very much.

Here are the verses I was thinking of on the subject:

I know people who call themselves Christians who may not know just how very hard it is to get into Heaven.

There was also a verse on how it is harder to enter into Heaven than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Its a parable, but you get the idea. I read that the road to Heaven is very narrow but the path to hell is huge. I couldn't find those verses but I know they're there.

Heb 10:26-39 says, "If we DELIBERATELY CONTINUE SINNING after we have received KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there is NO LONGER ANY SACRIFICE that will cover these Sins. There is only the terrible expectation of GOD'S JUDGMENT and the RAGING FIRE that will consume His enemies."

Matt 7:21-23 Jesus warns, "Not everyone who calls out to Me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually DO the Will of My Father in Heaven will enter. "On Judgment Day MANY will say to Me 'Lord! Lord! We Prophesied, Cast out demons, and Performed many Miracles in Your Name.' But I will reply, 'I Never Knew you. Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS (break God's Laws)."

Lukewarm People do not Obey God's Word (1 John 2:3-6). They practice Sin in their THOUGHT LIFE (Mark 7:20-23) and in their Heart, etc. They are Deceived, and according to Jesus, because they are Lukewarm (Rev 3:15-20), they will be "spit out of His Mouth" (Perish in Hell). (2 Tim 3:1-5, Matt 7:21-23)

Gal 5:19-21 "When you follow the desires of your SINFUL NATURE, the results are very clear: Sexual Immorality, Impurity, Lustful Pleasures, Idolatry, Sorcery, Hostility, Quarreling, Jealousy, Outbursts of Anger, Selfish Ambition, Dissension, Division, Envy, Drunkenness, Wild Parties, and other Sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that ANYONE LIVING THAT SORT OF LIFE WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

[MamaMia]

In other words, I believe that so many people who call themselves "Christians" think they have a lot more wiggle room than they actually do.

I also think that just believing that there is a God is not good enough to get you a place in Heaven. Believing that there IS a God and believing IN God are two different things.

[Blue]

Here are the verses I was thinking of on the subject:

I know people who call themselves Christians who may not know just how very hard it is to get into Heaven.

There was also a verse on how it is harder to enter into Heaven than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Its a parable, but you get the idea. I read that the road to Heaven is very narrow but the path to hell is huge. I couldn't find those verses but I know they're there.

Heb 10:26-39 says, "If we DELIBERATELY CONTINUE SINNING after we have received KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there is NO LONGER ANY SACRIFICE that will cover these Sins. There is only the terrible expectation of GOD'S JUDGMENT and the RAGING FIRE that will consume His enemies."

Matt 7:21-23 Jesus warns, "Not everyone who calls out to Me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually DO the Will of My Father in Heaven will enter. "On Judgment Day MANY will say to Me 'Lord! Lord! We Prophesied, Cast out demons, and Performed many Miracles in Your Name.' But I will reply, 'I Never Knew you. Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS (break God's Laws)."

Lukewarm People do not Obey God's Word (1 John 2:3-6). They practice Sin in their THOUGHT LIFE (Mark 7:20-23) and in their Heart, etc. They are Deceived, and according to Jesus, because they are Lukewarm (Rev 3:15-20), they will be "spit out of His Mouth" (Perish in Hell). (2 Tim 3:1-5, Matt 7:21-23)

Gal 5:19-21 "When you follow the desires of your SINFUL NATURE, the results are very clear: Sexual Immorality, Impurity, Lustful Pleasures, Idolatry, Sorcery, Hostility, Quarreling, Jealousy, Outbursts of Anger, Selfish Ambition, Dissension, Division, Envy, Drunkenness, Wild Parties, and other Sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that ANYONE LIVING THAT SORT OF LIFE WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

Thats an extremely legalistic view. Im reading a great book right now called "The Discipline of Grace." You should check it out.

[Blue]

In other words, I believe that so many people who call themselves "Christians" think they have a lot more wiggle room than they actually do.

I also think that just believing that there is a God is not good enough to get you a place in Heaven. Believing that there IS a God and believing IN God are two different things.

This I agree with. "You will know them by their fruit." When people encounter God, they can't help but change. (Ie sanctification.)

[Mjcpr]

When are we gettin' plowed, Blue?

[StoopTroup]

I'm hoping that you'll click on "Tell a Friend" so I can widen that "Wiggle Room".

http://www.holybible.com/

[8timechamps]

Yep. Christians believe their god is the only true god. Anyone that doesn't accept Jesus as their Savior is going to hell. They recruit and invade your privacy, and now they're attempting to use their belief system to influence public policy.

Stereotype much?

[Blue]

I'm more of an agnostic rather than an atheist. I was a Christian for many years and was a deacon/elder/board head of two different churches in my 30s. I eventually came to realize that I didn't believe in the God portrayed in the Bible. There were too many inconsistencies for me. There is the one part of the Ten Commandments that says "for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me". This was always conveniently left off in most talks I heard on the commandments in church. I also eventually came to realize that people in the church were no better than the ones I knew that were not religious. They were just more hypocritical about it all.

I fully believe that we learn our mores from being raised by parents in the right way with some of them just being inherent as we grow up. There are always going to be the deviants (sociopaths, psychopaths, etc.) that aren't born with any sort of filter. Religion or being raised with parents that teach right from wrong is going to do nothing to those. I don't steal, because I don't want to be stolen from. I don't cheat on my wife as I love her and don't want to hurt her. I try and teach my children right from wrong, and I don't need the threat of going to hell for them to get it.

I don't try and ridicule other's beliefs as I do believe that the vast majority of people who go to churches aren't anymore hypocritical and do the right things and certaintly probably think about it more than I do. There are certain things I don't like however which will cause me to speak up.

I don't like the pro-creation science crowd. Creation is not a science and should not be taught as such.

I am pro gay marriage/civil unions/whatever you want to call it. This mainly harkens back to equal treatment for all. We have many gay/lesbian couples raising children these days, and it behooves us to protect these families and couples.

I don't like it when it is God's will when anything bad happens. If so, this is a God that is an a****** which I believe someone else mentioned above.

I have had Christians ask if my autistic son is demon-possessed. Huh? Really? You want me to take anything coming out of your mouth seriously?

I also get seriously tired of being looked at crosswise if I say I'm agnostic/atheist. Yes, your belief system says you should try and convert me, but it is likely I know more about the Bible and Christianity than the person who is trying to convert me. I came to my beliefs through lots and lots of reading, research and soul-searching. As an agnostic/atheist I get criticized for my beliefs, so if someone hits me there, I will hit back. Sorry, I didn't mean this to be so long, but I had a lot to say.

With all due respect, I'd say you were never a Christian.

1 John 2:19-"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

People like CS Lewis, Charles Spurgeon, Oswald Chambers, and even Saul of Tarsus were genius scholars and they believed bc they "met" God and they realized that he chose to believe in them. Not the other way around.

God wasn't sitting around one day saying, "Ya know , Im lonely and bored, I think I'll create humans." Hes all complete, eternally glorious, all sovereign. I breathe at the moment bc he allows it. What an insult to put him in whatever box I feel like.

"Blessed are you O Lord God of Isreal our father forever and ever. Yours O Lord is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty. Indeed everything that is in the heavens and earth, yours is the dominion O Lord, and you exalt yourself as Head over All."

Ok, I'm done. I dont really want to argue and really wasn't trying to call you out , Sky. Just my opinion.

[Blue]

When are we gettin' plowed, Blue?

Heh.

[8timechamps]

If anyone is interested, I recently finished a book called "What's So Amazing About Grace?". It's a real book (not an eBook). I'll send it out if someone wants it. Very good read.

[Skysooner]

With all due respect, I'd say you were never a Christian.

1 John 2:19-"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

People like CS Lewis, Charles Spurgeon, Oswald Chambers, and even Saul of Tarsus were genius scholars and they believed bc they "met" God and they realized that he chose to believe in them. Not the other way around.

God wasn't sitting around one day saying, "Ya know , Im lonely and bored, I think I'll create humans." Hes all complete, eternally glorious, all sovereign. I breathe at the moment bc he allows it. What an insult to put him in whatever box I feel like.

"Blessed are you O Lord God of Isreal our father forever and ever. Yours O Lord is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty. Indeed everything that is in the heavens and earth, yours is the dominion O Lord, and you exalt yourself as Head over All."

Ok, I'm done. I dont really want to argue and really wasn't trying to call you out , Sky. Just my opinion.


It is no big deal. I kind of agree with you. I went to church primarily because of my parents early and my wife later. I'm very efficient and kind of a leader in some ways. I was picked for church leadership for what I could do and not for what I believed. Ultimately my wife saw the light and just goes without me now.

[StoopTroup]

If anyone is interested, I recently finished a book called "What's So Amazing About Grace?". It's a real book (not an eBook). I'll send it out if someone wants it. Very good read.

That's at least a $7 - $20 book. That's pretty nice of you.

I just realized I'm getting fined by the library for a book. You kind of jogged my memory. Be back later!

[jk the sooner fan]

we can quote all the verses we want about what may or may not keep us from receiving grace and entering the kingdom - it's really not our place to judge

but we should remember that we can be the worst kind of sinner our entire life - and on our death bed, accept Jesus as our savior and be saved......and wouldn't we want a God that forgives like that? It's easy as Christians to sit and think "i'm a better Christian and do more good works than that guy over there"....because it allows us to turn the focus away from our own selves and our relationship with Christ

Galatians is a great book to throw scripture around - but one needs to remember the context of which it was written

[Sooner24]

I don't have much to add here. Atheist gonna atheist and Christians gonna Christian. I just wanted to share what Gods been doing in my life the last year or so. Most of you know me as the message board drunk. So I know you'll take what I say with a grain of salt. I lived alot of my life as a professing Christian but really didn't show any evidence of having a relationship with God much less a disciple of Christ. But over the course of the last year for me personally he has given me such a deep revelation of his love and shown me just how real he is. In the course of this, I have begun sharing with whoever will listen bc the Gospel "the good news" is something when experienced that it can't be kept to yourself. He imparts love and grace and mercy and we as followers do the same to others. Some get a little self rigfhteous some go in their own power ahead of the spirit. But most do it not to earn favor with God but bc He first loved us and we owe it to an all sovereign, all powerful, eternally glorious God to serve and love him with everything we have. Most of us believe this decision is the only one that matters in this life and that its all gonna fade away except Jesus Christ and his kingdom. Thats why we do what we do.

So you could say its ignorant or a waste, but I would disagree. 1 Corinthians 1:18 -"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

He lived the life we couldn't live and died the death we deserved. All bc he loved us. This is a testimony I wrote for trip I took to Cuba a few months ago. I thought Id share. Its long and kinda basic but wth. Read it if ya want. Don't if you don't.

Hello, My name is Cody Spray. I was born and raised in the southern United States. I was exposed to God and church at an early age. My family and I were regular church attendees. As I grew into a teenager and became accountable for my choices, it became time for me to decide what I believed about God. I read in the bible that God was holy and just and perfect and that we being imperfect and sinful could not be in his presence. To solve this God sent his only son Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus was God born in the flesh. He lived a perfect life and taught men the ways of God. He was condemned and tried for blasphemy for claiming to be Gods son and was crucified as the atonement for our sins. A perfect and blameless final sacrifice that would be acceptable to God as the replacement for the punishment we deserved. Christ was buried and three days later rose from the dead conquering sin and death forever. I also learned that if I would confess Christ as Lord and accept his sacrifice, God would forgive me of my sin and I could be reconciled to God and spend eternity with him as opposed to separated from him. At that point I was convicted. I had been rebellious. I was disrespectful to authority. I was a self centered sinner. I needed God in my life. 1 Peter 3:18 says “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”
I was happy in my newfound faith, talking and trying to walk with God, but as an irresponsible teenager, I was not disciplined or diligent in reading my Bible, or surrounding myself with other believers, or guarding against sin and temptation. I didn’t understand how to truly live for and walk with God. I was loyal to old friends who didn’t know Christ and I didn’t understand you become like those you surround yourself with. Continued sin caused a lot of pain, depression, and anxiety in my life. I was in a cycle of sin, asking for forgiveness, but not truly repenting, and not changing my lifestyle. One could argue I wasn’t a follower of Christ at all. I surely didn’t act like it most of the time. I reflect on Ephesians 3:7- “I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of Gods grace given me through the working of his power.” The point is God chose me and he wasn’t going to let me go and he was going to teach me how to live for him. It boiled down to surrender. He was going to take my pride and my arrogance and my self reliance and crush it so that I would submit to him in every aspect of my life.
It sounds rough but it’s similar to how a shepherd deals with an unruly, rebellious, and willful sheep that doesn’t follow orders. The shepherd will break the sheeps leg, rendering it helpless. The shepherd will then carry the sheep wherever they would go. Over a period of time the sheep becomes completely dependent on its master and learns the sound of his voice. Once the leg had healed, the two become inseparable. Wherever you saw the shepherd, there the sheep was first in line and following him wherever he went. And so my heavenly Father did for me. He took away all that I put faith in and used for support and basically taught me that his grace was sufficient alone.
I submitted and still do daily and it has made all the difference. God knows the best path for me to take, so I will put all my trust in him. JOB 22: 21-23 says, “Yield now and be at peace with him, thereby good will come to you. Please receive instruction from his mouth, and establish his word in your heart. If you return to the almighty, you will be restored. If you remove unrighteousness from your tent.”
Today my life as a Christian is one of experiencing freedom from bondage and the chains of sin. Freedom from depression, anxiety, fear, and bad habits. When resting in Jesus’ perfect love, being filled by the Holy Spirit, I enjoy peace, joy, love, and hope. Now, when I am disobedient the spirit quickens my recognition of it and I ask for forgiveness and move forward, not in guilt and condemnation, but in absolute gratitude for Jesus Christ and that he loved me enough to free me from the wages of sin. I want to love him back. I want to bring him glory. I want to advance his kingdom by telling those I come in contact with about the King of kings and Lord of lords and how serving him and serving others makes all the difference in this life and in eternity. I can’t wait to meet him and I look forward to spending eternity in his never ending mercy and love.
But until then I have a responsibility. 2 Timothy 2:15 says, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” Matthew 5:16 -”Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your father who is in heaven.” And by the grace of God, one day I hope to hear him say, “Good job, faithful servant.”

Hey, that's my sig line!

Well that and Sooner Legends Inns & Suites. :playful:

[Mjcpr]

but we should remember that we can be the worst kind of sinner our entire life - and on our death bed, accept Jesus as our savior and be saved......and wouldn't we want a God that forgives like that?

This has been my plan all along.

[marfacowboy]

This has been my plan all along.

Yeah, that means Hitler could be there.

[marfacowboy]

Stereotype much?

No, if you accept the Apostles Creed and the New Testament, those are part of the core beliefs. As for the attempt to influence public policy, I suppose the Methodists or Presbyterians don't. Episcopalians aren't so bad. But the Baptist's take the cake.

[SoonerLaw09]

In other words, I believe that so many people who call themselves "Christians" think they have a lot more wiggle room than they actually do.

I also think that just believing that there is a God is not good enough to get you a place in Heaven. Believing that there IS a God and believing IN God are two different things.

Are you a Roman Catholic? Just asking. If so, that might explain your questions. You also are citing a lot of Scripture out of context. Not all of those passages are salvation-related. In any event, the point is that true conversion is evidenced by a changed life. The change is bigger in some people than in others, and takes a longer time in some people than in others (I'm a perfect example of that). But it's there. If it's not there, then it's questionable whether the conversion occurred.

What you're getting into is what many Catholics get into, i.e., mortal vs. venial sins, how much penance is enough, etc. but how do you know if you've really done enough? Because the priest told you? What if *his* sins are worse than yours?

In the end, trusting Christ and His finished work is all we can do. Self examination is valuable, and if you are calling evil good and good evil, and doing something the Bible clearly labels as sinful, and not caring about it, that is certainly cause for concern. But running the "performance treadmill" day in and day out is self-defeating. It's what Satan wants you to do. If you think you are defeated then you will not be an effective witness.

[jk the sooner fan]

Are you a Roman Catholic? Just asking. If so, that might explain your questions. You also are citing a lot of Scripture out of context. Not all of those passages are salvation-related. In any event, the point is that true conversion is evidenced by a changed life. The change is bigger in some people than in others, and takes a longer time in some people than in others (I'm a perfect example of that). But it's there. If it's not there, then it's questionable whether the conversion occurred.

What you're getting into is what many Catholics get into, i.e., mortal vs. venial sins, how much penance is enough, etc. but how do you know if you've really done enough? Because the priest told you? What if *his* sins are worse than yours?

In the end, trusting Christ and His finished work is all we can do. Self examination is valuable, and if you are calling evil good and good evil, and doing something the Bible clearly labels as sinful, and not caring about it, that is certainly cause for concern. But running the "performance treadmill" day in and day out is self-defeating. It's what Satan wants you to do. If you think you are defeated then you will not be an effective witness.

beautiful

[SoonerLaw09]

Titus 3:9-11 - Avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

That's directed toward other believers, not the general population.

[SoonerLaw09]

To all you atheists out there, why do you insist on forcing your beliefs down *my* throat? You want to rip all references to God from every aspect of American life and shut us up in our churches so we're out of the way and don't bother you while you're partying. Any law which restricts the Christian's right to speak and act in the public square, according to our beliefs, you're all about that.

I believe (and creation bears this out) that marriage is between one man and one woman. Why do you insist on forcing homosexual "marriage" down my throat? I don't want it to be recognized as legitimate.

Rational laws mirror God's law because this is a created universe with order and rules that reflect God's character. Human society and government functions best when it keeps itself in line with this truth. It's not evolution, not blind chance. The conscience exists because God put it there. There is no "evolutionary advantage" to it.

[MamaMia]

This has been my plan all along. Hope you don't get hit by a semi. I have a feeling your last words would be "Oh S***!!!" :D

I believe that once you know the meaning of the bible, you know right from wrong and you accept God as your Saviour and truly turn your life over to Him, that there are certain expectations you have to meet in order to go to Heaven. I do not believe that you can call yourself a "Christian," not walk in that light and go to Heaven as easy as most people believe.

It says in the bible that "Everyone sins and falls short of the glory of God," but I don't interpret that as meaning that I can live my life out of Gods will, according to MY plan, MY wants and what I believe are MY needs, do and say whatever I want, especially at the expense of others and think I will go to Heaven as long as I say an extra prayer at the last minute.

I believe that there are certain expectations God has for me, and if I ignore His will and don't even seek out His will for my life, but do and say whatever I want on a daily basis without taking Him into consideration, that I'm living my life for me, I'm being selfish, treating myself as my own God and will NOT be going to Heaven. I believe this merely based on what the bible tells us. The bible teaches us that the road to Heaven is very narrow. Sometimes when I meet a Christian, I can feel it in them. I can see God in their eyes and on their faces.

..and SoonerLaw09...I was not quoting the bible out of context. All of those verses were very simple and had to do with the wages of sin and that is the point I am trying to make.

[StoopTroup]

No, if you accept the Apostles Creed and the New Testament, those are part of the core beliefs. As for the attempt to influence public policy, I suppose the Methodists or Presbyterians don't. Episcopalians aren't so bad. But the Baptist's take the cake.

Your dance card just got revoked.

[MamaMia]

Are you a Roman Catholic? Just asking. If so, that might explain your questions. You also are citing a lot of Scripture out of context. Not all of those passages are salvation-related. In any event, the point is that true conversion is evidenced by a changed life. The change is bigger in some people than in others, and takes a longer time in some people than in others (I'm a perfect example of that). But it's there. If it's not there, then it's questionable whether the conversion occurred.

What you're getting into is what many Catholics get into, i.e., mortal vs. venial sins, how much penance is enough, etc. but how do you know if you've really done enough? Because the priest told you? What if *his* sins are worse than yours?

In the end, trusting Christ and His finished work is all we can do. Self examination is valuable, and if you are calling evil good and good evil, and doing something the Bible clearly labels as sinful, and not caring about it, that is certainly cause for concern. But running the "performance treadmill" day in and day out is self-defeating. It's what Satan wants you to do. If you think you are defeated then you will not be an effective witness.I agree with most of that but thats not what I am speaking about. My statements are based on my beliefs over what the wages of sin are once you have accepted God into your life. What do you believe are the wages of sin, if any?

[yermom]

To all you atheists out there, why do you insist on forcing your beliefs down *my* throat? You want to rip all references to God from every aspect of American life and shut us up in our churches so we're out of the way and don't bother you while you're partying. Any law which restricts the Christian's right to speak and act in the public square, according to our beliefs, you're all about that.

I believe (and creation bears this out) that marriage is between one man and one woman. Why do you insist on forcing homosexual "marriage" down my throat? I don't want it to be recognized as legitimate.

Rational laws mirror God's law because this is a created universe with order and rules that reflect God's character. Human society and government functions best when it keeps itself in line with this truth. It's not evolution, not blind chance. The conscience exists because God put it there. There is no "evolutionary advantage" to it.

oh you poor oppressed Christian. i'm sure daily your persecution leaves you huddled in the corner crying.

[MamaMia]

Oh, and I was raised Catholic and I do attend a Catholic church but have studied every religion in my town. There isn't one religion that I believe 100%. Like a lot of Catholics, I believe in birth control. I haven't been to confession in ages. Thats also the case with a lot of Catholics. I think its perfectly okay to confess your sins to God for forgiveness. My priest is there for counsel and would hear my confession if I so choose and I have a great relationship with him. I go to St. Peters because I believe in most of their teachings. I feel comfortable there. People are accepted there in spite of any differences. I have many friends there and enjoy the fellowship. Thats where I choose to worship.

[8timechamps]

No, if you accept the Apostles Creed and the New Testament, those are part of the core beliefs. As for the attempt to influence public policy, I suppose the Methodists or Presbyterians don't. Episcopalians aren't so bad. But the Baptist's take the cake.

I took it as "this is what I think all Christians are like..."

As a Christian, I am just as embarrassed (not sure that's the right word) of the bible-thumpers as atheists probably are, and maybe more. There's witnessing to others, then there's cramming one's beliefs down the throat...it's really not hard to tell the difference.

[Blue]

For those annoyed at Christians who share thier faith and the Gospel in trying to convert them. Its called the Great Commision and its kinda a big deal. It expanded the church from a few hundred believers in Jerusalem to billions over the centuries.

You might not respond to it, but many people do. Thats why it'll keep being done. Its a pretty awesome feeling to share the gospel with someone and watch them respond positively.

But but I agree, don't force it but be willing and ready when the spirit prompts it.

[SoonerLaw09]

I agree with most of that but thats not what I am speaking about. My statements are based on my beliefs over what the wages of sin are once you have accepted God into your life. What do you believe are the wages of sin, if any?

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." -- Romans 8:1-4

"Now this is the will of the one who sent me – that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” -- John 6:39-40

[SoonerLaw09]

oh you poor oppressed Christian. i'm sure daily your persecution leaves you huddled in the corner crying.

I'm simply answering the fool on his own terms. It's a logical form of argument.

Besides, we win in the end anyway, so I have no reason to huddle. :)

[SoonerLaw09]

I took it as "this is what I think all Christians are like..."

As a Christian, I am just as embarrassed (not sure that's the right word) of the bible-thumpers as atheists probably are, and maybe more. There's witnessing to others, then there's cramming one's beliefs down the throat...it's really not hard to tell the difference.

I try not to thump my Bible. It's disrespectful.

I do read it and try to live it everywhere in my life, including who I vote for and what I want the laws to be.

[SoonerLaw09]

MM:

“Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will recognize them by their fruit." Matthew 7:15-20

You quoted the very next passage, but it relates to what Jesus was talking about above; that is, people in the church who profess to be believers, but who you can tell are really not by their lifestyle or what they teach. The fruit of a person's life is how you tell if they have been truly converted or not. The fruit is not the method by which people get into Heaven.

[MamaMia]

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." -- Romans 8:1-4

"Now this is the will of the one who sent me – that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” -- John 6:39-40...and of course, only God Himself, actually knows who those "righteous" are, because He knows your heart. :)

[StoopTroup]

Oh, and I was raised Catholic and I do attend a Catholic church but have studied every religion in my town. There isn't one religion that I believe 100%. Like a lot of Catholics, I believe in birth control. I haven't been to confession in ages. Thats also the case with a lot of Catholics. I think its perfectly okay to confess your sins to God for forgiveness. My priest is there for counsel and would hear my confession if I so choose and I have a great relationship with him. I go to St. Peters because I believe in most of their teachings. I feel comfortable there. People are accepted there in spite of any differences. I have many friends there and enjoy the fellowship. Thats where I choose to worship.

I'll be glad to hear your confession Mama. I have a free week coming up ;)

[StoopTroup]

...and of course, only God Himself, actually knows who those "righteous" are, because He knows your heart. :)

And only he knows if what was written by man got to paper like he wanted. I have always had Faith that his Divine Intervention he gave those who put his words to the written word had the best intentions. I have always figured that after that the False Prophets and Preachers who followed....we should tread carefully as we try to live a life in Christ.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

That's a sociopath, not an atheist. Atheists are typically rational.

Faith= belief without proof. Religious people hang their hats on their unwavering faith.

Atheists generally find faith to be irrational, ie, lots of stuff in the bible reads like storybook magic. Legend. Myth. Parting of the red sea, staff turning in to a snake, raising the dead, etc.

Long list of stuff that I would have to see to believe. If you have faith then you just believe it. Personally I think that doesn't jive.

Atheists are looked down upon like devil worshipers. It's ridiculous. We don't believe in the devil either, unless you mean Nick Saban.

Did I anywhere say raping/pillaging/burning were done by atheists? And what do you mean "sociopath?" I understand what a sociopath is and all, but why would someone who wants it all be a sociopath - unless there is a norm or standard set saying "if you exhibit x behavior then you qualify as a sociopath - and where would this norm/standard come from?

If there's no God, no afterlife, etc. then why the hell not? Complete and total survival of the fittest. No quarter asked or given. No charity, no mercy. Dog eat dog.

My question is why wouldn't an atheist be compelled to go all Berzerker? WTH not? Conscience? Why have one if there's no ramifications/punishment? Or could a conscience by something God has given us? Or, let's just say we drop all the raping/pillaging stuff and go with oh....adultery? Why not bang your neighbor's old lady? The only place I know it says that's a no-no is in the Bible. My bulls bang all the cows and heifers they can stick their pecker into. It works in the animal world, why not with humans?

Deep subject.


Sociopaths aren't religion dependent. There are lots of maniacs out there and a god or lack there of has little to do with it.

You were saying that if we are godless then we could let all morals and ethics fly. Seeing as how I live in a society with other folks that will string me up for rape and murder, my survival instinct tells me that I am outnumbered and probably shouldn't rape anyone. But if I did I could always pay the father a few pieces of silver and marry the rapee according to the bible. I can look that passage up if need be.

There are ramifications. Real ones that I can sink my teeth in to. My peers make sure of that by way of capital punishment, prison, fines, or just being ostracized... Or just punched in the face.

And on the subject of adultery. Wow. Lots and lots of Christians are doing that right now. And now. And now.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

i think faith in God is largely on his terms....not our own (deism)

we have the freedom of choice to make the decision to believe....or not

but if we believe and shape/mold God into what we want him to be - then it's not really the same thing


This is a sticking point for me as well. I don't choose to not believe. I look at the evidence and it isn't compelling enough for me to believe it. Something either computes in your mind or it doesn't. I could try to force myself to worship a god that I don't believe exists but that would be lying to myself. Maybe that would be a version of Pascal's wager. A god would certainly see through a trick like that. Fake belief is not belief.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

To all you atheists out there, why do you insist on forcing your beliefs down *my* throat? You want to rip all references to God from every aspect of American life and shut us up in our churches so we're out of the way and don't bother you while you're partying. Any law which restricts the Christian's right to speak and act in the public square, according to our beliefs, you're all about that.

I believe (and creation bears this out) that marriage is between one man and one woman. Why do you insist on forcing homosexual "marriage" down my throat? I don't want it to be recognized as legitimate.

Rational laws mirror God's law because this is a created universe with order and rules that reflect God's character. Human society and government functions best when it keeps itself in line with this truth. It's not evolution, not blind chance. The conscience exists because God put it there. There is no "evolutionary advantage" to it.

The last paragraph is based on your faith and won't compute to an atheist.

As far as marriage goes, I am not fond of gay marriage but the bottom line is that its none of my damned business if two dudes want to get married. I just don't care. If someone wants to marry a sofa, so what?

Also, I have grown up in America and find that Christians don't want To hear Muslim prayers much. That's th way many atheists feel about Christian prayers and insertions of God in to government things. If it was Allah, youd probably be pissed Again, I really don't care. Pray all you want. I am just trying to explain the view point.

[SCOUT]

This is a sticking point for me as well. I don't choose to not believe. I look at the evidence and it isn't compelling enough for me to believe it. Something either computes in your mind or it doesn't. I could try to force myself to worship a god that I don't believe exists but that would be lying to myself. Maybe that would be a version of Pascal's wager. A god would certainly see through a trick like that. Fake belief is not belief.
This is my favorite answer to this most complex question.

I have had experiences in my life that have led me to a place where I unequivocally believe in God. It "computes" with me. If it doesn't for you I understand.

[MamaMia]

I'll be glad to hear your confession Mama. I have a free week coming up ;) Thank you for the offer Father StoopTroup, but I think I'm all caught up for now. :D

[Blue]

What are your thoughts on Calvinism and predestination Sooner09 or anyone else?

[MamaMia]

Can you ask that in laymans terms? :O

[MamaMia]

If you're talking about predetermination such as does God already know who will go to Heaven and who will not before they die...I think we all have a free will and certain crossroads we come to based upon choices we have made using our own free will. Whatever road we take determines our destiny for that moment in time until we are confronted with our next choice and so on and so forth. I have heard people say "God is all knowing" however I believe His knowledge is brought forth when and by the choices we make as we go along our path.

[SicEmBaylor]

I just do not understand Christianity or its appeal.

[cleller]

I just do not understand Christianity or its appeal.

It would bring out your inner Robert E. Lee.

[olevetonahill]

I just do not understand Christianity or its appeal.


It would bring out your inner Robert E. Lee.

Robert E Lee was a Devoted Christian . Sic-em Fail :victorious:


http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee_Religious_Views.htm

[SoonerLaw09]

If you're talking about predetermination such as does God already know who will go to Heaven and who will not before they die...I think we all have a free will and certain crossroads we come to based upon choices we have made using our own free will. Whatever road we take determines our destiny for that moment in time until we are confronted with our next choice and so on and so forth. I have heard people say "God is all knowing" however I believe His knowledge is brought forth when and by the choices we make as we go along our path.

There are many people who have this view. For myself, I find it difficult to mesh this with the clear teachings in Scripture that God knows the end from the beginning, everything. In order to actually be who He is, He has to. Total omniscience is an essential divine attribute. This is why I do not believe that loss of salvation is possible, because once you have it, once you are elect, that's the end of the matter, because it's already been accomplished. Now, the theology of the Roman church is quite different, and the subject is too detailed to go into here.

Likewise Blue, I'm what you'd call a "Reformed Baptist", if that answers your question. I believe in compatibilism, that is, that somehow God's will and man's will work together to accomplish the purpose for which everything was created. How that happens is somewhat of a mystery that can't be solved by man, kind of like the Trinity: it just is.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Robert E Lee was a Devoted Christian . Sic-em Fail :victorious:


http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee_Religious_Views.htm


Well vet, sic em might be a happier man if General Lee had not prayed for his enemies.

[Skysooner]

This is a sticking point for me as well. I don't choose to not believe. I look at the evidence and it isn't compelling enough for me to believe it. Something either computes in your mind or it doesn't. I could try to force myself to worship a god that I don't believe exists but that would be lying to myself. Maybe that would be a version of Pascal's wager. A god would certainly see through a trick like that. Fake belief is not belief.

Concur totally.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

God seems to help those who help themselves and others. Voluntarily helping others(not by govt. force) seems to produce positive results. This is all that I can attribute to God.I do believe in God, but have no conviction about God's nature, MO, or anything particular about Him. The evidence of God(something from nothing) isn't arguable, IMHO.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Nice copout. Weak, but nice.

Well honestly Dean, it would be immoral for me to take credit for the idea, lest I be shunned by my fellow Sooners:

http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/D.onM.html

[Blue]

Link didnt work Bro

Glad to hear you doing well .

Try this one. Even if ya want to see what Havana, Cuba looks like.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0zfy1rjnolvoir3/3V1fMggF1_?m



and this one... https://www.dropbox.com/sh/o1ednsa6h9f5okl/dPG06hpBTM

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Robert E Lee was a Devoted Christian . Sic-em Fail :victorious:


http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee_Religious_Views.htmhar. haha

[SicEmBaylor]

har. haha
?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

?it means laughter.

[jk the sooner fan]

good post. haha

zzzzzzzzzzz