The Unions War On Children

[sappstuf]

Teachers walk out in Chicago closing schools. Teachers in Chicago are already either the highest or 2nd highest paid teachers in the country.

Why do they hate children so much??

[okie52]

Teachers walk out in Chicago closing schools. Teachers in Chicago are already either the highest or 2nd highest paid teachers in the country.

Why do they hate children so much??

And all of those parents will have to find daycare and pay for it...overnight.

[sappstuf]

And all of those parents will have to find daycare and pay for it...overnight.

So it is a stimulus?

[okie52]

So it is a stimulus?

Got to get spending up!!!

[yermom]

i'm pretty sure it takes two sides for a strike to happen

[okie52]

i'm pretty sure it takes two sides for a strike to happen

Rahm not doing his part?

[KABOOKIE]

The title of this thread should read: Rahm Emanuel and Evil Democrats HATE UNIONS!!!!!!!1#

[marfacowboy]

Thank you, Dr. Goebbels, for keeping us informed.

[sappstuf]

i'm pretty sure it takes two sides for a strike to happen

Yep. One side is the highest paid teachers in the country. The other side offered them a 16% pay raise over 4 years that could not be rescinded for lack of funds while facing a $1 billion dollar deficit at the end of the school year....

[cleller]

i'm pretty sure it takes two sides for a strike to happen

How is that? If you refuse to meet your employee demands you are complicit in the strike?

[okie52]

Yep. One side is the highest paid teachers in the country. The other side offered them a 16% pay raise over 4 years that could not be rescinded for lack of funds while facing a $1 billion dollar deficit at the end of the school year....

Sounds like those evaluations were a major concern to teachers.

[KABOOKIE]

Thank you, Dr. Goebbels, keeping us informed.

Yeah, after your frothing attack on all things republican during the "Walker Recall" thread, I'm surprised you're not shouting for democrats in Chicago to be put to the stake. If anything, this shows just how greedy unions have become. They are now "THE HAVES" of our society and are draining this country dry along with the other near-do-wells sucking off the gov't teet.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

why the **** is everything a war nowadays? are these teachers and children combat vets now? get out of here with that nonsense rhetoric

[cleller]

why the **** is everything a war nowadays? are these teachers and children combat vets now? get out of here with that nonsense rhetoric

The war thing may be getting tired, but we ARE talking about Chicago here.

[sappstuf]

why the **** is everything a war nowadays? are these teachers and children combat vets now? get out of here with that nonsense rhetoric

Get the Dems to drop their silly "War on Women" mantra and we have a deal.

[badger]

why the **** is everything a war nowadays? are these teachers and children combat vets now? get out of here with that nonsense rhetoric

I agree that this thread title contains unnecessary political rhetoric. Therefore, as rules stipulate, one shirtless Tim Tebow (who was booed by Jets fans yesterday hehe)
http://aeryssports.com/the-green-room/files/2012/08/tim-tebow-article-01.jpeg

As for the striking teachers, Rahm Emmanuel has never been one to compromise and is quite abrasive, so I can understand why there's a fight going on between him and teachers.

From the teachers' point of view, they have had to deal with budget cutbacks, layoffs and demands to work a longer school day (Chicago's were among the shortest in the country before Rahm extended them by hiring more teachers).

The Chicago school system is broke and broken, in other words.

[XingTheRubicon]

I just don't want to see that jabba the hut with lipstick, union rep anymore.

[marfacowboy]

Yeah, after your frothing attack on all things republican during the "Walker Recall" thread, I'm surprised you're not shouting for democrats in Chicago to be put to the stake. If anything, this shows just how greedy unions have become. They are now "THE HAVES" of our society and are draining this country dry along with the other near-do-wells sucking off the gov't teet.

Unions serve their place, although they're not perfect. Any organization can have corruption.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Get the Dems to drop their silly "War on Women" mantra and we have a deal.
Tu quoque. I don't think I've ever used that phrase in my entire life

[Turd_Ferguson]

Unions serve their place, although they're not perfect. Any organization can have corruption.Name one that serves it's place...

[XingTheRubicon]

Name one that serves it's place...

maybe Tulsa Union

[cleller]

I just don't want to see that jabba the hut with lipstick, union rep anymore.

You mean this scary thing?

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww14/cs6000/chi-karen-lewis-20120724.jpg

Here's a nice story about a talk she gave at a Social Justice convention, talking about smoking dope thru college, and serving up a gay slur at Obama's Sec of Education:

http://michellemalkin.com/2012/09/10/chicago-thuggery-personified-meet-chicago-teachers-union-president-karen-lewis/

Did you know they have a HS in Chicago named Social Justice High School? What a town. No wonder half their kids can't finish HS.

[Soonerjeepman]

Yep. One side is the highest paid teachers in the country. The other side offered them a 16% pay raise over 4 years that could not be rescinded for lack of funds while facing a $1 billion dollar deficit at the end of the school year....

wow, and I thought the $100 1 time raise I got this yr after having my Masters and teaching for 22 yrs was big time! Stupid me...

I will say though (without doing any investigation) being the highest paid isn't necessarily that great IF the cost of living is high. I make $59K with 22 yrs and a Masters. NOT complaining BUT if I was in the business world in charge of 23 IMMATURE employees, supervising them, making sure they produce to a high level and was fairly successful I'm sure my pay would be different, or I could just charge daycare rates!!!

[Soonerjeepman]

I will add, my school's administration would probably do a lot of damage IF there was no union. Some of their ideas are really out there....I don't belong, but that is due to political issues, but do see where it is useful. ON the hand I've seen horrible teachers who had tenure and couldn't be fired without all kinds of paperwork. I guess that is kind of like many business owners I know, they can't fire someone without all kinds of documentation because of all the discrimination crap.

IF you are really concerned about public education check out the school district's administration and their philosophical views, very liberal. (unless you are liberal...lol)

[marfacowboy]

The private sector didn't take advantage of workers, and if we didn't have nitwits trying to get rid of minimum wage laws, none of these type of measures would be necessary. But the history of our nation is overflowing with examples of worker exploitation, even violence against workers.
It's amazing to me how we pay teachers, firemen and police officers. Critical people in our society, particularly a society with 300 million people. We hold them responsible for protection and for educating our children, yet we pay them like ****. I have no doubt that if there weren't police unions, conservative politicos would attempt to drive the wages so low no one would take the jobs.

[badger]

Let's go on a rant, shall we?

No position of public service should be, nor will it likely ever be, one that is competitively paid, compensated with benefits, etc. Why? Because part of being a public servant is giving of yourself for other's benefit. If you are a clergy member, you have a lot of education, a lot of hours, and not a lot of pay. If you are a non-profit worker, you work among the homeless, the jobless, the helpless and you get compensated just above minimum wage.

The same goes for teachers. Yes, they have important jobs, but they are public service jobs. They are educated, they have crap hours during the school year and they get not a lot of pay for their important job, but that is the basis of a public service job: For the greater good, you give of yourself.

Somewhere along the line, the reality of being a public servant and being a highly educated professional has become blurred, where teachers unions want to be revered for their service to the public, yet compensated like a private employee. You cannot have it both ways. Either you are offering a public service and compensated as such, or you are a private sector worker that is seeking the best pay, benefits and perks.

Regardless, no job funded by taxpayer dollars without an alternative means of funding (like Bob Stoops, who can have his salary funded by donors and football tickets) will ever be competitively compensated. If you don't like it, join the private sector.

[FaninAma]

This is the type of drama I am going to enjoy immensley over the next 4 years. Liberal politicians trying to get their base to come to grips with the fact that the federal, state and local governments are tapped out.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall as super lib Rob Emanuel tries to plead with the unions and other members of the democrat base to be reasonable.

[badger]

This is the type of drama I am going to enjoy immensley over the next 4 years. Liberal politicians trying to get their base to come to grips with the fact that the federal, state and local governments are tapped out.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall as super lib Rob Emanuel tries to plead with the unions and other members of the democrat base to be reasonable.

Rahm: Be reasonable.
Unions: NEVER!

Seriously though, I don't think I can enjoy others' suffering ever. Heads will roll.

[East Coast Bias]

Let's go on a rant, shall we?

No position of public service should be, nor will it likely ever be, one that is competitively paid, compensated with benefits, etc. Why? Because part of being a public servant is giving of yourself for other's benefit. If you are a clergy member, you have a lot of education, a lot of hours, and not a lot of pay. If you are a non-profit worker, you work among the homeless, the jobless, the helpless and you get compensated just above minimum wage.

The same goes for teachers. Yes, they have important jobs, but they are public service jobs. They are educated, they have crap hours during the school year and they get not a lot of pay for their important job, but that is the basis of a public service job: For the greater good, you give of yourself.

Somewhere along the line, the reality of being a public servant and being a highly educated professional has become blurred, where teachers unions want to be revered for their service to the public, yet compensated like a private employee. You cannot have it both ways. Either you are offering a public service and compensated as such, or you are a private sector worker that is seeking the best pay, benefits and perks.

Regardless, no job funded by taxpayer dollars without an alternative means of funding (like Bob Stoops, who can have his salary funded by donors and football tickets) will ever be competitively compensated. If you don't like it, join the private sector.

I call BS on this. Sooner jeepman gave a good rendition of what teachers face. A lot of public servants make a very good wage. There are a lot of run of the mill cops and fireman up here in the Northeast that make over 100K a year. If we really valued what teachers have to offer and put a value on our children's education we would take a look at this. It is a complex problem, but we do not pay teachers what they are worth. And the other side of the problem is that a lot of the good ones have taken your advice and went into the private sector.
The problem with their situation goes to the state-funded pensions. The states should grand-father what pensions are out there and convert the new hires to 401K's. My wife is a public school teacher, with a Master's, halfway to a doctoral and makes 43K a year. That is a disgrace. Badj's advice to her: Go get a job in private industry. Is that what we really want?

[sappstuf]

wow, and I thought the $100 1 time raise I got this yr after having my Masters and teaching for 22 yrs was big time! Stupid me...

I will say though (without doing any investigation) being the highest paid isn't necessarily that great IF the cost of living is high. I make $59K with 22 yrs and a Masters. NOT complaining BUT if I was in the business world in charge of 23 IMMATURE employees, supervising them, making sure they produce to a high level and was fairly successful I'm sure my pay would be different, or I could just charge daycare rates!!!

I think you would be making more there.


Chicago teachers have the highest average salary of any city at $76,000 a year before benefits. The average family in the city only earns $47,000 a year. Yet the teachers rejected a 16 percent salary increase over four years at a time when most families are not getting any raises or are looking for work.

The city is being bled dry by the exorbitant benefits packages negotiated by previous elected officials. Teachers pay only 3 percent of their health-care costs and out of every new dollar set aside for public education in Illinois in the last five years, a full 71 cents has gone to teacher retirement costs.

[FaninAma]

Rahm: Be reasonable.
Unions: NEVER!

Seriously though, I don't think I can enjoy others' suffering ever. Heads will roll.

I won't enjoy the economic pain that average people will suffer but I will enjoy the gnashing of teeth and perplexed deer-in-the-headlites look of the politicians.

And count me as unconvinced that the American electorate that elected these *********s into office will ever grasp that they are at the root of the problem.

[pphilfran]

I call BS on this. Sooner jeepman gave a good rendition of what teachers face. A lot of public servants make a very good wage. There are a lot of run of the mill cops and fireman up here in the Northeast that make over 100K a year. If we really valued what teachers have to offer and put a value on our children's education we would take a look at this. It is a complex problem, but we do not pay teachers what they are worth. And the other side of the problem is that a lot of the good ones have taken your advice and went into the private sector.
The problem with their situation goes to the state-funded pensions. The states should grand-father what pensions are out there and convert the new hires to 401K's. My wife is a public school teacher, with a Master's, halfway to a doctoral and makes 43K a year. That is a disgrace. Badj's advice to her: Go get a job in private industry. Is that what we really want?

There is more to it than just wages...you have to look at compensation packages...retirement age....number of days worked...

I do not know any of the details so I can't and won't pick a side...

Just saying you have to look at more than just annual wages...

[badger]

My wife is a public school teacher, with a Master's, halfway to a doctoral and makes 43K a year. That is a disgrace. Badj's advice to her: Go get a job in private industry. Is that what we really want?

I wouldn't offer that advice to her without knowing her personal situation so please don't put words in my mouth.


Teachers pay only 3 percent of their health-care costs and out of every new dollar set aside for public education in Illinois in the last five years, a full 71 cents has gone to teacher retirement costs.
That's where all the Chicago school money is going. Maybe the current teachers should really be angry at the retirees taking all of the money that could be going to making their current jobs easier.


they are at the root of the problem.
People don't like hearing the truth, especially if it hurts.


I do not know any of the details so I can't and won't pick a side...
Agree, that's why I asked to not have words put in my mouth. Every situation is unique. Oklahoma teachers contribute to their retirements, Wisconsin teachers (unless something has recently changed) don't. Chicago teachers get high pay, Oklahoma teachers don't.

[Soonerjeepman]

I think you would be making more there.

holy crap....YES I need to go there! lol

oh, forgot the health insurance...our district's insurance for family went up 14% this yr alone. For example, the art teacher got a mere $50 dollar raise PER MONTH, but his insurance went up $120 PER MONTH. It's $900 OUT of pocket a month. Luckily I pay for my son's own policy but BCBS is the only company in KS that allows individual policies for under 18...and I get the district's fringe. I pay $100 a month for dental and vision for me and the kids.

For those that say you went into SERVICE for the greater good not $, I NEVER said I expected the same as private, I said I COULD make much more. I even teach in the urban area of KC so it's even more of a struggle than suburbs, but I do it because I think I can make a difference for a kid, someday.

The old argument of summers off is well....I had 1 summer where I didn't work at least 40 hours a week, usually labor, in 23 yrs. Again, not complaining but my summers were usually working not laying by a pool.

As far as fireman/police, fellow teacher's nephew is a paramedic, makes $50K working 12 full days a month in KCK. USUALLY their insurance is cheaper.

oh, I'm NOT an obama supporter! ;-)

[marfacowboy]

I call BS on this. Sooner jeepman gave a good rendition of what teachers face. A lot of public servants make a very good wage. There are a lot of run of the mill cops and fireman up here in the Northeast that make over 100K a year. If we really valued what teachers have to offer and put a value on our children's education we would take a look at this. It is a complex problem, but we do not pay teachers what they are worth. And the other side of the problem is that a lot of the good ones have taken your advice and went into the private sector.
The problem with their situation goes to the state-funded pensions. The states should grand-father what pensions are out there and convert the new hires to 401K's. My wife is a public school teacher, with a Master's, halfway to a doctoral and makes 43K a year. That is a disgrace. Badj's advice to her: Go get a job in private industry. Is that what we really want?

I agree except for the 401K's. They've pretty much proven to be a failure. A lot of people lost big in '08 and will never have enough to retire even there's a rebound. We need something in-between SS and individual accounts. Something that doesn't have the inherent risk and fees of a 401K. I've heard rumblings of GRA (Guaranteed Retirement Accounts) but don't know a lot about them.

As for teachers, other than parenting, it's the most important role in society. You don't have to pay the same as a highly skilled or qualified private sector job, but what we have now doesn't cut it. We have to decide, as a society, how much we value public education and what we're willing to pay for it.

[yermom]

holy crap....YES I need to go there! lol

oh, forgot the health insurance...our district's insurance for family went up 14% this yr alone. For example, the art teacher got a mere $50 dollar raise PER MONTH, but his insurance went up $120 PER MONTH. It's $900 OUT of pocket a month. Luckily I pay for my son's own policy but BCBS is the only company in KS that allows individual policies for under 18...and I get the district's fringe. I pay $100 a month for dental and vision for me and the kids.

For those that say you went into SERVICE for the greater good not $, I NEVER said I expected the same as private, I said I COULD make much more. I even teach in the urban area of KC so it's even more of a struggle than suburbs, but I do it because I think I can make a difference for a kid, someday.

The old argument of summers off is well....I had 1 summer where I didn't work at least 40 hours a week, usually labor, in 23 yrs. Again, not complaining but my summers were usually working not laying by a pool.

As far as fireman/police, fellow teacher's nephew is a paramedic, makes $50K working 12 full days a month in KCK. USUALLY their insurance is cheaper.

oh, I'm NOT an obama supporter! ;-)

is that by choice? or because of your job as a teacher?

[East Coast Bias]

I wouldn't offer that advice to her without knowing her personal situation so please don't put words in my mouth.


That's where all the Chicago school money is going. Maybe the current teachers should really be angry at the retirees taking all of the money that could be going to making their current jobs easier


People don't like hearing the truth, especially if it hurts.


Agree, that's why I asked to not have words put in my mouth. Every situation is unique. Oklahoma teachers contribute to their retirements, Wisconsin teachers (unless something has recently changed) don't. Chicago teachers get high pay, Oklahoma teachers don't.

Did you read the last line in your post? Were those not your words? The whole post was a generalization and now you are offended because you recognize there are unique situations?

[East Coast Bias]

I agree except for the 401K's. They've pretty much proven to be a failure. A lot of people lost big in '08 and will never have enough to retire even there's a rebound. We need something in-between SS and individual accounts. Something that doesn't have the inherent risk and fees of a 401K. I've heard rumblings of GRA (Guaranteed Retirement Accounts) but don't know a lot about them.

As for teachers, other than parenting, it's the most important role in society. You don't have to pay the same as a highly skilled or qualified private sector job, but what we have now doesn't cut it. We have to decide, as a society, how much we value public education and what we're willing to pay for it.

My wife (the teacher) and I have arguments about this on a regular basis. I contend that pensions are history. Nobody gets a job in private industry today with any hope for a pension. You get a contribution to a 401K from your employer and hopefully you manage it well. Private industry gave up on pensions some time ago. The State governments are getting killed by funding these pensions long-term, its the Post Office syndrome.They should go to 401K's. They make a yearly contribution and are done with the financial burden at that moment. Look, I probably am more liberal than most liberals, but this is what is putting the state governments in peril financially and can be fixed.
My wife argues that if pensions,health insurance benefits and other perks are cut, the pay has to be more equitable because that is part of what attracts quality people.She makes a decent argument....

[FaninAma]

What shocks me is how much the city has already caved to the unions and the pure chutzpah of the unions in pushing their demands when the City of Chicago and Illinois are broke.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Opinion-Chicagos-Second-Golden-Age-Is-Over-160023155.html

[pphilfran]

I agree except for the 401K's. They've pretty much proven to be a failure. A lot of people lost big in '08 and will never have enough to retire even there's a rebound. We need something in-between SS and individual accounts. Something that doesn't have the inherent risk and fees of a 401K. I've heard rumblings of GRA (Guaranteed Retirement Accounts) but don't know a lot about them.



If you invest within your risk tolerance, diversify, and don't panic at the bottom you would do fine in the market...

People that didn't bail at the bottom have made their money back (as long as they were diversified)....and if you dollar cost average and rebalance quarterly you would actually be ahead at this point in time...

Just another case of you buying into a bunch of rhetoric instead of looking at the facts...

[East Coast Bias]

What shocks me is how much the city has already caved to the unions and the pure chutzpah of the unions in pushing their demands when the City of Chicago and Illinois are broke.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Opinion-Chicagos-Second-Golden-Age-Is-Over-160023155.html

I would totally agree with this, based on Sapp's numbers.However, for all the union-bashing we see here those same numbers seem to promote the benefits of a strong teacher union. In my state teacher unions are benign, with mediocre membership. I suspect that might be the case in Oklahoma? Does that correlate to low pay and benefits and have the Chicago unions contributed to high pay?

[landrun]

Wow... the leftist are so out of touch with reality they're trying to defend this!????

I don't care what the cost of living is, when you're the highest paid union in the nation and are offer a 16% pay increase and you're so greedy you turn it down, you have serious problems. These people are professional mooches sucking the life out of people who average almost half of their salaries. That doesn't include their outstanding beneifts when you compare them to the rest of us!

This is the exact reason that the unions have lost respect among the American public. They ARE the 99%. They're everything they've ever accused 'big business' of ever being.

If you're a leftest and try to defend this, then you're to the point where no one can even have a discuss with you. Rationally, you're gone...

[pphilfran]

10k invested
40% in S&P Spyder
40% in Nasdaq Fidelity fund
20% in cash at .4% return per quarter

Rebalance at the end of each quarter

Start beginning of 2008 and end June 2012

Account balance has grown by $1,693....hardly the destruction that you described...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/stock.jpg

[marfacowboy]

If you invest within your risk tolerance, diversify, and don't panic at the bottom you would do fine in the market...

People that didn't bail at the bottom have made their money back (as long as they were diversified)....and if you dollar cost average and rebalance quarterly you would actually be ahead at this point in time...

Just another case of you buying into a bunch of rhetoric instead of looking at the facts...

Do even a cursory amount of research on, lets say the Wall Street Journal, and you'll find that people lost their *** and didn't recover. Most that have relied on 401K's don't have enough to retire.
You're flat wrong.

[marfacowboy]

My wife (the teacher) and I have arguments about this on a regular basis. I contend that pensions are history. Nobody gets a job in private industry today with any hope for a pension. You get a contribution to a 401K from your employer and hopefully you manage it well. Private industry gave up on pensions some time ago. The State governments are getting killed by funding these pensions long-term, its the Post Office syndrome.They should go to 401K's. They make a yearly contribution and are done with the financial burden at that moment. Look, I probably am more liberal than most liberals, but this is what is putting the state governments in peril financially and can be fixed.
My wife argues that if pensions,health insurance benefits and other perks are cut, the pay has to be more equitable because that is part of what attracts quality people.She makes a decent argument....

I agree. I don't think we have a good retirement system. You're absolutely right on pensions, but 401K's haven't cut it for most people.
I figure they'll just find me slumped over my desk one day.

[8timechamps]

Privatize all education!!

[8timechamps]

Do even a cursory amount of research on, lets say the Wall Street Journal, and you'll find that people lost their *** and didn't recover. Most that have relied on 401K's don't have enough to retire.
You're flat wrong.

No, he's actually not. The folks that lost their *** and didn't recover are the folks that didn't know what they were doing, or didn't stay within their risk tolerance. If folks are relying on their 401(k) and still don't have enough, they didn't plan properly.

[East Coast Bias]

Wow... the leftist are so out of touch with reality they're trying to defend this!????

I don't care what the cost of living is, when you're the highest paid union in the nation and are offer a 16% pay increase and you're so greedy you turn it down, you have serious problems. These people are professional mooches sucking the life out of people who average almost half of their salaries. That doesn't include their outstanding beneifts when you compare them to the rest of us!



This is the exact reason that the unions have lost respect among the American public. They ARE the 99%. They're everything they've ever accused 'big business' of ever being.

If you're a leftest and try to defend this, then you're to the point where no one can even have a discuss with you. Rationally, you're gone...

Come on Land, you didn't just read my post and come up with that,right? Turn the channel off FOX and read it again slow for comprehension. I will give you the first grader version:I agree the union is out of control and wrong in this.But one must agree the union has been effective to this point if the numbers we hear are correct. Now for some new material: If the union gets all the teachers fired, all is lost.The other side to that is: Replacement Refs are one thing, replacement teachers altogether something else.

[pphilfran]

Do even a cursory amount of research on, lets say the Wall Street Journal, and you'll find that people lost their *** and didn't recover. Most that have relied on 401K's don't have enough to retire.
You're flat wrong.

Do a cursory look above your post and I will prove you wrong...

Diversify, rebalance, dollar cost average, and stay within your risk tolerance...

if people lost their *** it was because they did not follow basic investment rules...

You, sir, have no clue...

[East Coast Bias]

I agree. I don't think we have a good retirement system. You're absolutely right on pensions, but 401K's haven't cut it for most people.
I figure they'll just find me slumped over my desk one day.

I took a serious tumble on my 401K, but it has been coming back steadily. I am not as astute as Pphil with the market, I do what most people probably do: Pick a few funds and let it roll. I look at it as a long-term investment, likely to go just as far South at times as it goes North. I doubt mine will be great by the time I retire; only because retirement is only 6 years away. If the rest of me lasts that long.

[pphilfran]

I took a serious tumble on my 401K, but it has been coming back steadily. I am not as astute as Pphil with the market, I do what most people probably do: Pick a few funds and let it roll. I look at it as a long-term investment, likely to go just as far South at times as it goes North. I doubt mine will be great by the time I retire; only because retirement is only 6 years away. If the rest of me lasts that long.


you don't have to be astute...just rebalance quarterly....that forces you to sell high and buy low..that is actual data that I posted...anybody can do it with very little trouble...

I used two index funds and an money market....don't get no easier than that....

[pphilfran]

The guy that is astute is 8time

[BigTip]

An image that comes to mind are the Greeks rioting in the streets against the austerity measures the government was implementing.
They were demanding money from where there was no money. They were just totally out of touch with reality.
It was shocking to me.
A lot of things shock me these days.
The behavior of this union does not.

[8timechamps]

The guy that is astute is 8time

Can you tell my kids that? They think I'm a dope.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Chicago is broke and broken, in other words.

FIFY... ;)

But, but, Chicago is the liberal utopian capital, they have low tax rates, they respect the second amendment and allow conceal carry and they have a low murder and crime rate... Uh, wait - NO! All that utopian **** and they are still a cesspool. Everywhere where the libs are in power, the cities have poor standards of living and less personal freedoms. Everywhere the conservatives are in power have high standards of living and of personal freedoms.

[soonercruiser]

Thank you, Dr. Goebbels, for keeping us informed.

Yup! You libs have no problem with the liberal teachers and unions brainwashing our children in their gulags!
It's all about $$ and control.
Thank You Mr. Stalin!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I agree. I don't think we have a good retirement system. You're absolutely right on pensions, but 401K's haven't cut it for most people.
I figure they'll just find me slumped over my desk one day.

Absolutely right on UNREALISTIC pensions. Realistic, balanced employer/employee contributions with the Social Security exemption, limited or nonexistent health benefit coverage, guaranteed return and reduced benefit percentages makes sense and is well within the ability for states, employees, and employers(municipalities) without crushing the bank and saddling (omg the childrun) the state with massive unfunded liabilities for the future.

And therein lies the problem.

For so many, it's either/or. Pensions are the doom of us. Pensions are the bnefit that keeps the employment fresh, highly trained, and coming. It's NOT either or. Compare for example the Texas State Peace Officers pension system versus the Oklahoma State Firefighters system. A Texas cop can retire at 90% of their wage at 20 years, no questions asked. If memory serves there's a health benefit in there, too. An Oklahoma firefighter can hang it up at 20 years with only 50% of the wage and ZERO health benefit or contribution from the state pension system.

That to me sounds reasonable. Not asking Joe Citizen to bleed while he's struggling to pay full or near full wages 30-40 years for a retired employee ON TOP OF the massive costs and increases of health care. It's not just unfair, it's foolish. But it's not the concept or principle of public employee pensions, it's simply how out of control many state pensions have become.

And Badger, go ask those boys at Hillcrest that got skin grafts today if they'd do it for free. Odds are, they would have. Odds are, they wouldn't be neck deep in the situation that burned them so badly were they not professionals, taking a wage from the citizens of Tulsa to do that very thing. Being paid to stick that neck out regardless of the circumstance. Find me a set of professionals like those boys in the burn unit and tell me they don't deserve a functional wage.

Tell me that and I'll tell you a lot of things, most of which will get me banned.

[marfacowboy]

No, he's actually not. The folks that lost their *** and didn't recover are the folks that didn't know what they were doing, or didn't stay within their risk tolerance. If folks are relying on their 401(k) and still don't have enough, they didn't plan properly.
That's not completely true. My aunt, a retired physician, has one of the best portfolio managers in the city, a highly respected advisor she's been with for many years. I bet she lost $400K that year. Even the best took it on the chin.
The only people I know that didn't, are super wealthy and have their money at places like Southeastern Asset Management. And what sets them apart is they put their own money in there with their clients. They manage about $52billion in assets.

I've never liked banking and "wealth management." I don't trust any of them.

[Soonerjeepman]

is that by choice? or because of your job as a teacher?

I'm assuming the working summers part? I guess both. depends on if I want to take the jeep wheelin on weekends, go on that Mexican vacation (first time at age 42 that I ever did something like that), help with my kids (cars, car insurance, sports) etc. Like I said, I'm not rich and didn't expect that going into teaching. I do know if I didn't do that it would be much tighter.

[badger]

The whole post was a generalization and now you are offended because you recognize there are unique situations?
I'm not offended and I'm not looking for a fight. I'd have to say that every situation is unique, but in general, positions paid by tax dollars and not competitively paid and whether that's fair or not is moot -- it's just the way things are. I wish we could pay teachers seven-figure salaries like we do with pro athletes.


And Badger, go ask those boys at Hillcrest that got skin grafts today if they'd do it for free. Odds are, they would have.
For the record, I love Tulsa firefighters. I have one as a neighbor.

So, let's look for middle ground in this argument --- if we cannot offer public employees competitive wages and pensions, maybe we can offer them job security. Maybe we can make it so that an education and public safety budget can only be evaluated every five years. That way, teachers, firefighters and police officers don't have to worry about layoffs every time there's a budget cut. They would still have to perform and could be for-cause fired, but beginning teachers fresh out of college, or beginning officers fresh out of academy don't need to worry that the numbers will fall the wrong way when the tax revenues aren't up to projection.

[Soonerjeepman]

As far as pension, I get $160ish taken out every month AGAINST my wishes, for KPERS (Ks public emp retirement system) like other states it's in peril. They decided to raise what they are taking out and change the benefit plan in 2014. My issue is I cannot CHOOSE. The state takes it out no matter what and does it's own investing, I can't even choose where it goes. I'll get 60% of my last yrs salary, about $2800 a month when I retire.

[pphilfran]

That's not completely true. My aunt, a retired physician, has one of the best portfolio managers in the city, a highly respected advisor she's been with for many years. I bet she lost $400K that year. Even the best took it on the chin.
The only people I know that didn't, are super wealthy and have their money at places like Southeastern Asset Management. And what sets them apart is they put their own money in there with their clients. They manage about $52billion in assets.

I've never liked banking and "wealth management." I don't trust any of them.

We never said people didn't take a hit...we took exception to this statement...

I agree except for the 401K's. They've pretty much proven to be a failure. A lot of people lost big in '08 and will never have enough to retire even there's a rebound.

Which is inaccurate...

If a person cannot tolerate a 25% drop in their portfolio they should not be in the market...

The only people that had the *** handed to them were the ones that sold at the bottom....

On one extreme we have people that tout impossible returns and cause people looking for something that is too good to be true to lose money (Bernie Madoff)
On the other extreme we have people that tout the severe risks and crooked investment firms that will lose your money (marfacowboy)

[marfacowboy]

We never said people didn't take a hit...we took exception to this statement...

I agree except for the 401K's. They've pretty much proven to be a failure. A lot of people lost big in '08 and will never have enough to retire even there's a rebound.

Which is inaccurate...

If a person cannot tolerate a 25% drop in their portfolio they should not be in the market...

The only people that had the *** handed to them were the ones that sold at the bottom....

On one extreme we have people that tout impossible returns and cause people looking for something that is too good to be true to lose money (Bernie Madoff)
On the other extreme we have people that tout the severe risks and crooked investment firms that will lose your money (marfacowboy)

There are articles all over from major publications about the 401K problem. It's ubiquitous.
I don't really care, though. Like I said, they'll find me slumped over my desk one day. I'll never retire, because I've had to support too many people. Parents, cousins, children, putting four people through college, my nephews, my brother, etc. I've been pretty much an ATM for the past ten years. I invested in people. Hope it pays off for them.

[pphilfran]

There are articles all over from major publications about the 401K problem. It's ubiquitous.
I don't really care, though. Like I said, they'll find me slumped over my desk one day. I'll never retire, because I've had to support too many people. Parents, cousins, children, putting four people through college, my nephews, my brother, etc. I've been pretty much an ATM for the past ten years. I invested in people. Hope it pays off for them.

Good for you...you are a fine guy...but don't blame your family financial problems on a 401k...

[Midtowner]

And Badger, go ask those boys at Hillcrest that got skin grafts today if they'd do it for free. Odds are, they would have. Odds are, they wouldn't be neck deep in the situation that burned them so badly were they not professionals, taking a wage from the citizens of Tulsa to do that very thing. Being paid to stick that neck out regardless of the circumstance. Find me a set of professionals like those boys in the burn unit and tell me they don't deserve a functional wage.

Tell me that and I'll tell you a lot of things, most of which will get me banned.

Firefighters are paid (and paid very well) to do their job. It's probably a pretty miserable job at times, but there's also a lot of downtime. As far as the danger goes, I think you overstate things. Firefighting isn't even in the top 10 of the country's most dangerous professions, yet it pays better than most of those professions. Yes, **** does happen. You're professionals who are paid well to do what you do.

[Whet]

"Hey, hey, ho, ho! Obama's gotta go!" They are protesting because they didn't get their 30% raise and air conditioning in all the classrooms! They have failed as teachers with one of the worst dropout rates, reading levels, and even shooting accuracy of the students. (this photo from my office window)
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/awanderlust/2012-09-10_15-33-09_677.jpg

[OU_Sooners75]

The private sector didn't take advantage of workers, and if we didn't have nitwits trying to get rid of minimum wage laws, none of these type of measures would be necessary. But the history of our nation is overflowing with examples of worker exploitation, even violence against workers.
It's amazing to me how we pay teachers, firemen and police officers. Critical people in our society, particularly a society with 300 million people. We hold them responsible for protection and for educating our children, yet we pay them like ****. I have no doubt that if there weren't police unions, conservative politicos would attempt to drive the wages so low no one would take the jobs.

Lets see here...

Do all teachers have to be public employees? NOPE. so if they wish to get paid better, then they should try to become a teacher in a private school.

Do all cops have to be public employees? No, there are some firms that offer security out there that pay very well to former/current police officers.

You cannot within reason say that a Public employee should be paid at the private sector rate. Want to talk about bankrupting an already bankrupt government!

In order for teachers to get paid as much as they would in a private business, then the state and local governments would have to tax the living hell out of the citizens.

That or do away with public education and privatize education instead.

[badger]

"Hey, hey, ho, ho! Obama's gotta go!" They are protesting because they didn't get their 30% raise and air conditioning in all the classrooms! They have failed as teachers with one of the worst dropout rates, reading levels, and even shooting accuracy of the students. (this photo from my office window)
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/awanderlust/2012-09-10_15-33-09_677.jpg

Hey, a real Chicagoan (is that the proper term?) is on here!

Questions:
1- Do you have kids in public/private schools up there? Regardless, what are the schools really like?
2- What is the public opinion on Rahm as mayor?
3- Does Chicago think of Barack as one of their own, or more as just someone that claims Chicago but isn't a true Chicagoan (again, sorry if that's not the proper term)
4- Does Chicago side with the teachers, the city, neither or both? What's the public's reaction to this strike?
5- Do you know who CM Punk is? :D
6- Will the Cubs ever win a World Series again?

[Whet]

Hey, a real Chicagoan (is that the proper term?) is on here!

Questions:
1- Do you have kids in public/private schools up there? Regardless, what are the schools really like? Typically only ghetto kids attend public schools and they get free breakfast and lunch.
2- What is the public opinion on Rahm as mayor? They elected him and is a Democrat, so they love him - except for some of these union thugs.
3- Does Chicago think of Barack as one of their own, or more as just someone that claims Chicago but isn't a true Chicagoan (again, sorry if that's not the proper term. As far as the liberal residents, they believe Obama, as a small child, was found in a basket along the banks of the Chicago River! Yes, they loves their Obama.
4- Does Chicago side with the teachers, the city, neither or both? What's the public's reaction to this strike? I did notice the union bus drivers were continuously honking their horns, adding to the cacophony of noise in the loop.
5- Do you know who CM Punk is? :D?BillyBall!
6- Will the Cubs ever win a World Series again? The Cubs are not in the business to win World Series, they are there to provide entertainment. For real World Series Champs, you need think White Sox! Tickets are easier to get and you see much better baseball
7. How badly will the Bears beat Green Bay? :very_drunk:
8. I've only lived in Chicago for about 6 years, after which I moved to the burbs. The expert on Chicago is BillyBall, who works a few blocks north of me.

see.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/awanderlust/2012-08-27_13-40-04_580.jpg

[badger]

7. How badly will the Bears beat Green Bay?
Let's get all of our cards on the table:

My hand: Swiss cheese defense

Your hand: Urlacher et al

Advantage: Chicago

My hand: Wodgers! Discount double check!

Your hand: I'm Jay Cutler! I played in the SEC! Yes, Vandy is TOO an SEC team! YES IT IS! STOP SAYING IT ISN'T! POUT POUT POUT

Advantage: WAAAAAAAY for me.

My hand: A washing up whorn running back that we won't even hand the ball to on 3rd and 1. Let's heave the ball toward the endzone!

Your hand: Chicago Bears sign Matt Forte to 4-year, $32M contract

Advantage: Chicago. Ruh roh this isn't looking good...

My hand: Fan song lyrics: "If you drive through Soldier Field they make you pay a toll. For cripes sake, they only won one lousy Super Bowl!"

Your hand: Fan song lyrics: "You're the pride and joy of Illinois! Bear down Chicago Bears, bear down!"

Advantage: PUSH

My hand: Things you yelled at the TV last Sunday: STUPID REPLACEMENT REFS CALLING STUPID REPLACEMENT CALLS! STUPID REFS STUPID REFS!!!!!!!!!!

Your hand: Things you yelled at the TV last Sunday: Suck for Luck? Suck WITH Luck! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Advantage: You, till the real refs return.

And that, folks, is why I am anti-union. Because the Packers lost Sunday and they'll probably lose Thursday, unless Wodgers! miracles us a victory. :mad:

[OU_Sooners75]

I call BS on this. Sooner jeepman gave a good rendition of what teachers face. A lot of public servants make a very good wage. There are a lot of run of the mill cops and fireman up here in the Northeast that make over 100K a year. If we really valued what teachers have to offer and put a value on our children's education we would take a look at this. It is a complex problem, but we do not pay teachers what they are worth. And the other side of the problem is that a lot of the good ones have taken your advice and went into the private sector.
The problem with their situation goes to the state-funded pensions. The states should grand-father what pensions are out there and convert the new hires to 401K's. My wife is a public school teacher, with a Master's, halfway to a doctoral and makes 43K a year. That is a disgrace. Badj's advice to her: Go get a job in private industry. Is that what we really want?

Like phil said, you got to look at it further than annual salary:

Im taking Oklahoma only into account:

Average days worked per year: 175 days. School year is 180 days. Average teacher misses class 5 days either due to meetings, sickness, or other events.
Average Annual Compensation (rounded to nearest 1K): $44,000
Average Bonuses: $5,000
Average Retirement Age: 62 with 10 years of service
Average Retirement Compensation: Employer contribution: 5.8%; Teacher contribution: 7.0% Vesting period: 10 years
Health Insurance for all education employees in the state of Oklahoma is fully funded by the State which started during the 2012 session (current school year).
Some Oklahoma School districts do not take part in Social Security.
On average, less than 15% of a teachers salary is taken from their checks for benefits.


Now, Oklahoma is one of the lowest teacher paying states in the union. But given that the average teacher works 175 days out of 365, or just 48% of the year, then an annual gross income (excluding bonuses and benefits) of $44,000 is a very good compensation. If they worked like most professional people, or most of the working population, then they would have to work 85 more days (260 days/year).

In other words, teachers in Oklahoma (again one of the lowest paid teacher states in the country) make on average $251.43 per day they work. Now, this average for Oklahoma also includes first year teachers, which make a pathetic $31,000/year.

That said, add in the average bonus of $5,000. That is on average $49,000 per teacher. Or on average $280/day/teacher.

Lets not forget that the state of Oklahoma matches their retirement up to 5.8%. Lets also not forget Oklahoma also fully funds the teachers health benefits as of the 2012-2013 school year.

So in reality, are the teachers really getting shafted?

If they worked like normal private employees, they would work 85 more days a year on average. They would also get compensated for it in the range of $65,372/year.

Again, I ask, are they really getting underpaid?

I do not know the numbers for every state. But it would be hard to say outside of actual annual gross income, that its very much different from state to state.

[Soonerjeepman]

75...like I've said before I don't expect to make $$, but a few points (maybe counterpoints) in 23 yrs I had 1 summer "off" took 12 hours for my masters. I worked 40+ hours a week manual labor usually. I'm not alone, I should say most male teachers do that. I coached as well, which usually worked out to about $5 an hour. So your only working 180 days is a bit of a misnomer for prob the majority of teachers. Just within the last few yrs have I seen that starting to change. Course there are more women in education so some of that is due to their husbands making a good enough living for them to not work during the summer.

no offense but you obviously don't know private/public teachers salaries, in KS at least, private salaries are usually a lot lower. Why? because teachers don't have to put up with kids that don't want to be there, have different learning issues, have incredibly unstable home life, etc.

I agree, asking for a 16% raise over 4 yrs in a broke district is crazy..but again I come from the viewpoint I worked under an old contract last yr, and got a 1 time $100 stipend this yr. Good thing I work in the summer!

[8timechamps]

That's not completely true. My aunt, a retired physician, has one of the best portfolio managers in the city, a highly respected advisor she's been with for many years. I bet she lost $400K that year. Even the best took it on the chin.
The only people I know that didn't, are super wealthy and have their money at places like Southeastern Asset Management. And what sets them apart is they put their own money in there with their clients. They manage about $52billion in assets.

I've never liked banking and "wealth management." I don't trust any of them.

Then you wouldn't like me.

Everyone lost something when the markets tanked, but those that stuck with their risk tolerance and re-balanced regularly lost less and regained. I don't know anything about your aunt, but just giving money to a manager doesn't mean she knew what she was doing, or stayed within the perimeters aforementioned. Not knowing how much your aunts portfolio was worth, I can't say if she lost more than she should have, but I know a lot of money managers that are great salespeople, but not so great money managers.

In all reality, pphilfran is right, anyone can manage their own money. There are plenty of tools available online nowadays, and sticking with a few basic rules, anyone can keep their investments relatively secure. My clients are folks that don't have the time or interest to do it themselves. I have a minimum asset level that any new client must meet in order for me to manage their investments. I would caution anyone out there that is looking to place money with someone that says they are a "wealth manager" to do their homework. Anybody can claim to be an money manager.

[OU_Sooners75]

75...like I've said before I don't expect to make $$, but a few points (maybe counterpoints) in 23 yrs I had 1 summer "off" took 12 hours for my masters. I worked 40+ hours a week manual labor usually. I'm not alone, I should say most male teachers do that. I coached as well, which usually worked out to about $5 an hour. So your only working 180 days is a bit of a misnomer for prob the majority of teachers. Just within the last few yrs have I seen that starting to change. Course there are more women in education so some of that is due to their husbands making a good enough living for them to not work during the summer.

no offense but you obviously don't know private/public teachers salaries, in KS at least, private salaries are usually a lot lower. Why? because teachers don't have to put up with kids that don't want to be there, have different learning issues, have incredibly unstable home life, etc.

I agree, asking for a 16% raise over 4 yrs in a broke district is crazy..but again I come from the viewpoint I worked under an old contract last yr, and got a 1 time $100 stipend this yr. Good thing I work in the summer!


So you want a full time full year job? is that what you are saying? if so, get out of teaching!

I have plenty of friends that are teachers and coaches. Their salaries do suck, for them. But here in Oklahoma, they make more than most Nurses do. They make more than most Police officers do. And they make a hell of a lot more than the vast majority of enlisted soldiers in the military do!

Fact is, given how much (or how little depending how one looks at it) time a teach is actually working, they get paid pretty darn well. Not great, but well.

Most teacher friends of mine go into work about 7:00 AM. They get off by 4 PM. They get one hour for lunch. That is an 8 hour day. Sure some days they have to stay longer, but not a whole lot of days.

That said, 8 hours * 175 days = 1400 hours per school year.
$44,000 (avg base salary in Oklahoma)/1400 hours = $31.43/hour

Most nurses that I know of make around the $25/hour range. My mom makes more than that, but she decided to drive and stay in OKC to work at OU Medical Center. She makes roughly $40/hour in the oncology department there.
The local (town of roughly 30K) police department pays the officers an avearge of $19/hour
The local fire department pays the EMTs (firefighters) an average of $15/hour

So when you look at the public service professionals, Teachers, Police, and Fire departments. On average teachers get paid a lot better.

I am not against paying teachers more money. But honestly, how in the hell are the taxpayers going to afford it?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

For the record, I love Tulsa firefighters. I have one as a neighbor.

So, let's look for middle ground in this argument --- if we cannot offer public employees competitive wages and pensions, maybe we can offer them job security. Maybe we can make it so that an education and public safety budget can only be evaluated every five years. That way, teachers, firefighters and police officers don't have to worry about layoffs every time there's a budget cut. They would still have to perform and could be for-cause fired, but beginning teachers fresh out of college, or beginning officers fresh out of academy don't need to worry that the numbers will fall the wrong way when the tax revenues aren't up to projection.

Unconstitutional. The municipalities as per the State Constitution can not oblige themselves to unfunded expenditures as would be the case given a multi-year arrangement. Regardless if your intent is to simply lock the budget in and stabilize it, you're obligating the municipality to those expenses in the next four years.

The assumption that you "cannot" offer "competitive" wages as a stance for public safety officers is ludicrous in and of itself. Define competitive. Competitive versus the private sector? There isn't a private sector comparison. Versus other similar entities in a universe of cities? That's the current model and Tulsa Fire consistently ranks at the bottom of their universe of cities in pay and benefit comparisons. Competitive because you say what's competitive? Then you're simply talking out your ear for the sake of. And both of which are entirely counterintuitive to your supposed trade-off of "job security" in the very fields you're suggesting should be provided by the municipality (as is MANDATED in the state constitution and for many is the very definition of a function of government in providing for the general welfare and common defense) out of the good graces of the individual.

Yes it's "public service". "Public service" of a mandatory function. Public works are also a "public service". Should we not, through our tax dollars, expect to pay water quality professionals, civil engineers, and Joe the Ditch Digger to make sure clear, clean water that's safe to drink comes out of the tap? You expect them to volunteer their service because by your definition, it's "public service" which grants its benefits through that warm, fuzzy feeling you get afterwards? The point simply is that NO ONE in the Great State of Oklahoma is getting stupid rich off the taxpayer's back in public safety, let alone in Tulsa. Yet the value you receive from the dollars you spend is amazing.

You enjoy one of if not the highest cardiac save rates in the United States.

You enjoy the majority of the membership of the Oklahoma State Urban Search and Rescue Task Force Team One as well as the leadership and majority membership of the Oklahoma State Regional Hazardous Materials Task Force both with access to the entirety of the state equipment for the service of the citizens of Tulsa.

You enjoy the benefits of men and women working their tails off at the two busiest fire stations in the state of Oklahoma with comparative city's busiest (such as St. Louis) literally running a thousand less calls per year.

You earn and deserve all the public service functions that go beyond emergency response from car seat installation, smoke detector installation, public safety presentations, code enforcement, public education, and fire/arson investigation.

All these and a buttload MORE to make sure Tulsa gets what she pays for. The best. Is Tulsa paying for the best? On a straight dollar for dollar comparison, no. Not even top five in Oklahoma, let alone similar cities. But does that mean Tulsa should NOT get the best for her money? She should. She deserves it, to the point of young men willing to put themselves in harm's way for the wages she pays. To use your point, the retirement, the wage, the health benefits, and the work expected and delivered are NOT competitive now. But what's offered, the knowledge that I can serve my city, work hard, stick my neck out for folks I don't know from Adam and for my effort enjoy a little slice of retirement that doesn't come close to the exorbitant pensions of insanity you see across the United States seems like a fair trade. Especially when I know that the odds are against me retiring with a clean bill of health, a direct result of the actions taken in an effort to perform the duties of a Tulsa Firefighter. It's why we can retire in 20 years. Why firefighters by far exceed other state pension systems for disability retirement claims.

So instead, shouldn't the "middle ground" as you say be something more akin to whether the tax dollars you spend are directly reflected in services and benefits provided to you the taxpayer? And for what you're paying (fire service specifically speaking), you're getting more in Tulsa than you'll find anywhere, hands down. Why CAN'T a 50% pension be offered? Is it too much to ask? Or is it too much to ask our legislators to keep their damn fingers out of the funding mechanisms? Or ask employees and municipalities to shoulder another 1-2% to increase the vested percentages? Or ask the folks we serve to quit demonizing a very simple, reasonable thing because folks in California and Wisconsin managed to put a bullet in the head of the taxpayer in their greed and disgust?

C'mon, Badj.

[badger]

C'mon, Badj.

I'm trying to be realistic... not nice, not compassionate, not fair, but realistic. You guys put your own money into your retirement systems unlike other states, you bust your arses for the public's well-being, and the system is still one of the most underfunded in the country. If we are that far behind on funding it, then realistically, Oklahoma can't afford to pay you more benefits or take-home money.

I agree that it'll probably be too unconstitutional to lock in job security, but it was a nice thought wasn't it? :)

How bout this --- we yank the pensions from elected officials and give those to the firefighters, teachers and police officers.

HEAR ME OUT!

1- We hate elected officials anyways. We elect them, but by and large, they are the most detested public "servants" out there. Love teachers, love police, love firefighters. Elected officials? Boooooooo.

2- They get full pensions, if I'm not mistaken, for a measily 6 years of service. SIX years?! Boooooooo

Now, the elected officials are never going to agree to this perk cut on their own, so we do what we are trying to do in order to get liquor in Walmarts, and that's GET SIGNATURES. Get it on the ballot, directly to voters. We can call it "Pensions for those who deserve them," or "Get your grubby hands outta the money pot, politician punks"

1- Propose petition
2- Get signatures
3- ???

Step four is usually "profit," but in this case, it might just be firefighters, police and teachers getting what they've worked long and hard for, and that the state still has not had the ability to fund.

The only downside? The state elected officials might not be as concerned about protecting public pensions if they weren't recipients of pensions themselves. Shoot, gues that idea won't work :(

[Soonerjeepman]

relax 75, not pickin a fight...my ORIGINAL comment was agreeing the teachers in Chicago have it pretty good. I also made the point that usually in the private sector you get paid more if you produce more. BUT you also have control over your workforce (we get who we get and there is no "firing" of kids in PUBLIC school). Public service jobs are not high paying, most people go into those jobs NOT for the money.

I'm all for cutting wasteful programs, and yes even in education there is tons of waste. If businesses were run like education they'd all be broke for the most part.

I don't want higher taxes just to boost my salary either.

Do I think the teachers in Chicago are wrong...on the surface yes, I haven't looked real hard into the issues. I do know though, our administration has done some stupid stuff and expectations that if the union didn't stand up to them it wouldn't have been a good thing. Amazing how folks lose sight of classroom management and issue surrounding the students when they get to be superintendents.

[KABOOKIE]

RECALL CHICAGO MAYOR RAHM EMANUEL!!!!!!!!!!!

[marfacowboy]

Good for you...you are a fine guy...but don't blame your family financial problems on a 401k...

I didn't.

[marfacowboy]

Then you wouldn't like me.

Everyone lost something when the markets tanked, but those that stuck with their risk tolerance and re-balanced regularly lost less and regained. I don't know anything about your aunt, but just giving money to a manager doesn't mean she knew what she was doing, or stayed within the perimeters aforementioned. Not knowing how much your aunts portfolio was worth, I can't say if she lost more than she should have, but I know a lot of money managers that are great salespeople, but not so great money managers.

In all reality, pphilfran is right, anyone can manage their own money. There are plenty of tools available online nowadays, and sticking with a few basic rules, anyone can keep their investments relatively secure. My clients are folks that don't have the time or interest to do it themselves. I have a minimum asset level that any new client must meet in order for me to manage their investments. I would caution anyone out there that is looking to place money with someone that says they are a "wealth manager" to do their homework. Anybody can claim to be an money manager.

Doctor's typically aren't good business people or money managers. At least from what I can tell. But she's always been good saver and very financially stable. Being "broke" or "up against it" for her is probably a dream situation for the average joe. She was a radiologist and probably brought home $300 to $400K the last twenty years of her career, but she also had some major expenses with a handicapped child and another one that was a drunk and couldn't stand on its own two feet.
I don't know many people that didn't take a punch in the gut from those years. Here's a Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardsiedle/2012/08/29/flawed-401k-plan-structures-to-blame-for-systemic-failure/) that talks about some of the problems, problems a non-sophisticated investor (which, I would say, represents most of us) might have experienced.
I'm sure most of you will immediately discount anything from the Huffington Post, but here's an article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-callahan/401k-a-perfect-failure_b_1574834.html) there I found interesting.
Here's another (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505146_162-38740198/the-401k-has-failed-lets-admit-it/) from CBS. Hard to find anyone touting them except for the people in the financial sector that stand to benefit from them. I'm speaking as a novice, as this most assuredly is not my field. Just passing on my general perception of things.

[pphilfran]

Marfa, there is no perfect retirement savings plan...defined benefit plans were breaking companies...the financial and government world is littered with plans that are not sustainable...GM and Social Security come to mind...their defined plans sound good at the start but once the retirement base grows to be as large as the workers the thing becomes unsustainable...but you choose to ignore that fact and only spew filth about a way for many people to maximize their retirement income with reasonable and simple investments..

Yes, damn near everybody took a hit in the downturn...but as I showed with a very simple plan you could have returned to your original amount within 2 years...and that doesn't even account for any additional investment at fire sale prices during the downturn...

A person does not have to be a genius to do well in retirement...

1. You need to save more and spend less..if you have a 401K or a defined pension
2. You need to balance your money in a couple of index funds and a fixed asset fund that have low expenses (index funds that most all 401k will have available) and rebalance quarterly (something an 8th grader can do)
3. Dollar cost average - a 401k does this for you with automatic withdrawal
4. You need to know your risk tolerance and as you grow older you limit your exposure even further to the riskier securities...and if your risk tolerance is low then you do not have to put your money in the stock market


That is it...that is all one needs to do to become financially stable in retirement..a person can make it a hell of a lot more difficult if they want to try and milk some additional return but that adds more risk to get that additional return and is not for everyone..


As 'usual you only spew out the negatives and fail to bring out the lower tax consequences when you invest in a 401k...you fail to mention the matching that many companies add to your investment...you fail to mention the number of plans of various risk that are mandatory within a 401k...and you fail to mention that you must get a return that exceeds inflation or your less risky investment means nothing in the long run...

I understand...you hate the markets...and that is fine with me...the less money chasing stocks keeps prices down where I have an even better chance at finding value in a market...

And with this statement "Doctor's typically aren't good business people or money managers." you are blowing further smoke out of your ***...unless you happen to have a link with proof...

With all that said I think the next 10 years are going to be tough on the market...interest rates are not going to decline from current levels...and that will hurt bond holders and stock holders...so I wouldn't be very aggressive with my money at the current time...

[marfacowboy]

Marfa, there is no perfect retirement savings plan...defined benefit plans were breaking companies...the financial and government world is littered with plans that are not sustainable...GM and Social Security come to mind...their defined plans sound good at the start but once the retirement base grows to be as large as the workers the thing becomes unsustainable...but you choose to ignore that fact and only spew filth about a way for many people to maximize their retirement income with reasonable and simple investments..


Spew filth? More than slightly hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? Just because someone doesn't agree with you, someone, I presume from your vigorous but lank defense, that's within the financial services industry.

I'm not surprised, though. Your ilk will ruthlessly defend the glory of the market, including the use of militarism and young lives to expand markets and profits. It's your raison d'être.

[okie52]

This is very entertaining.

[pphilfran]

Thanks for the compliment but I am not, and never have been, involved in any financial organization or service industry....

What does militarism and young lives have to do with a 401K?

[Midtowner]

Spew filth? More than slightly hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? Just because someone doesn't agree with you, someone, I presume from your vigorous but lank defense, that's within the financial services industry.

I'm not surprised, though. Your ilk will ruthlessly defend the glory of the market, including the use of militarism and young lives to expand markets and profits. It's your raison d'être.

Yikes. Lighten up, Francis. Phil may be a lot of things, but he's no ilk.

And I'm pretty sure he's no neocon.

[pphilfran]

Yikes. Lighten up, Francis. Phil may be a lot of things, but he's no ilk.

And I'm pretty sure he's no neocon.

Thanks!

If I had my druthers I would choose a pension plan over a 401k...it would be an easy decision...nothing to do unless the company goes belly up and then there is risk of retirement cuts (which I think is nearly criminal) but many pension plans have been in financial trouble when a company fails to meet it's growth business plan...too many retirees to support and not enough workers to support them...

Is a 401k plan perfect? Hell, no...but for many it is the best way to save money for retirement...and with basic knowledge and little time anyone can put together a basic plan that minimizes risk to help secure ones financial freedom in retirement...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I'm trying to be realistic... not nice, not compassionate, not fair, but realistic. You guys put your own money into your retirement systems unlike other states, you bust your arses for the public's well-being, and the system is still one of the most underfunded in the country. If we are that far behind on funding it, then realistically, Oklahoma can't afford to pay you more benefits or take-home money.

See, that's where the very core of the mistake is. The assumption that "underfunded" pensions are this giant spectre that's gonna cut off your kid's heads and rape your dog and crush mankind and hard working people as we know it. All the while pillaging cash from schools, roads, and Aunt Pootie's cookie jar. It simply isn't isn't so. When they scare you with the boogieman of "unfunded liability", it's simply the use of an unrealistic scenario to make you think the systems are poised to absolutely crush the remainder of the state budget. Unfunded liability is a percentage based on EVERYONE, those eligible, those ineligible, those just starting, anyone and everyone contributing to the plan, retiring at their full benefit. At once. At last check, if EVERY CONTRIBUTING FIREFIGHTER IN THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA punched out and retired today, the system would be able to pay fifty eight cents on the dollar or in other words, 58% vested.

That's what's wrong with the cries of doom. Only a very small percentage of those contributing to the system are even eligible to retire according to the rules of the system itself therefore the 58% you hear? OMG, the state can only cover 58% of retirees? False. This massive pension that's getting ready to cut our throats because of the greedy unions raping our state? False. Sucking our coffers dry? False. That very system at 58%, is growing monetarily, albeit slowly. But it needs help. Here's a neat story. Sad, but true.

Firefighters across the state just like legislators and taxpayers stepped to the plate to work with legislators to come up with a plan to eliminate the misaligned concern. The plan jointly conceived had firefighters increasing their contributions by 1%, the cities increasing their matching funds by 1%, and any and all market gains above the guaranteed return that the state covers with the insurance premium tax (that is a shell of its former self due to rerouting by legislators, the root of the spectre of "unfunded liability") going to the general pension system account, not the individual contributor accounts. This plan conservatively projected the fund to reach over 90% vested status in a mere 30 years. More aggressive projections suggested an even shorter time. It had the support of firefighters and legislators from both sides of the aisle but never made it out of committee because of pressure from groups like the Oklahoma Municipal League and others who are fighting tooth and nail NOT to establish the issue you assert that defined benefit pensions are infeasible (as we can see, they are if they're not allowed to spiral out of control and all parties contribute to their welfare), but to wreck the WHOLE of the systems into defined contribution plans. And guess where the remainder of the money IN the plan goes? Joe Fireman gets his contributed cut in a 457 (a government employee 401) and the giant pot of everything else becomes an Uncle Scrooge-esque pile of cash that Fred Congressman gets to swim around in.

Ruin your back pulling Suzy Taxpayer out of her burning house to the point you can't work anymore? You're screwed. You got no Social Security contributions or benefits because you were in a qualified exempted pension plan. But you got no pension plan now. Thanks for destroying your body for a state constitutionally mandated function. Here's a pat on your wrecked back, a nice plaque, and the thanks of Suzy Taxpayer. Enjoy the rest of your life living under a bridge. And that's NOT some grandiose, hyperbolic example. That happens, fairly often. Hope you sunk your entire paycheck into that 457, broken fireman. You're gonna need it.


I agree that it'll probably be too unconstitutional to lock in job security, but it was a nice thought wasn't it? :)

There's no probably. It is. And while it'd be nice, I can see why it would be. Municipal taxpayers don't want or need to be saddled with that sort of liability. On one hand, it'd be for a good cause. On the other, it'd be too easily taken advantage of to the detriment of us all.


How bout this --- we yank the pensions from elected officials and give those to the firefighters, teachers and police officers.

HEAR ME OUT!...

You know what would be better in my opinion? The package (or one like it) that I just mentioned that had firefighters stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility to make sure our pensions are in the shape folks expect them to be in. Folks coming together and doing their part. That's what's beautiful about Oklahoma and her people. This is what this needs? Then by God, pin your ears back and lets get it done. The only thing that shot down those changes was 1% and a MASSIVE lobby by the OML to stop it in its tracks. Not 1% of tax revenues, not 1% of fire department budgets. 1% of the city's individual contribution to the plan. For Tulsa's membership, that translates to roughly $2800 a month liability to the city. To cover EVERYONE. Not $2800 per man, EVERYONE. On average, about 5 bucks a head per month. But that's not the point. The point is to destroy the plans, prevent changes ENTIRELY so that they can continue to dangle the OMG 58% DOOMED, so they can continue to wage this silly war with California and Wisconsin as misguided, incorrect focal points of what's happening here. The unions are raping us! Pensions are crushing our ability to govern! We need defined contribution plans NOW so that unions won't be spending our children's future!

It's beyond ridiculous. Hopefully this has shed some light on just how ridiculous it is. Oklahoma CAN have pensions for its public safety workers because we set them up right in the first place. Reasonable benefits, ZERO growing liability from healthcare costs, and a plan to decrease unfunded liability next to nil with zero impact to the taxpayer. But that's not good enough, apparently. Again, simply ridiculous.

[pphilfran]

http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x1440921815/TRS-director-Retirees-might-have-to-take-COLA-cut

The Illinois Teachers Retirement System could be insolvent as soon as 2029, leading executive director Dick Ingram to raise the politically explosive possibility of reducing pension benefits for already retired teachers.

In a confidential memo, obtained by The State Journal-Register, Ingram said the state’s largest pension system, which has been underfunded for decades, can no longer be confident that state government will continue to pay it enough money to allow the system to keep treading water. The memo was sent to the TRS board Feb. 9.

[pphilfran]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/us/retiree-benefits-for-the-military-could-face-cuts.html?pagewanted=all

Under the current rules, service members who retire after 20 years are eligible for pensions that pay half their salaries for life, indexed for inflation, even if they leave at age 38. They are also eligible for lifetime health insurance through the military’s system, Tricare, at a small fraction of the cost of private insurance, prompting many working veterans to shun employer health plans in favor of military insurance.

Advocates of revamping the systems argue that they are not just fiscally untenable but also unfair.

The annual fee for Tricare Prime, an H.M.O.-like program for military retirees, is just $460 for families and has not risen in years, even as health care costs have skyrocketed. Critics of the system say the contribution could be raised substantially and still be far lower than what civilians pay for employer-sponsored health plans, typically about $4,000.

[pphilfran]

http://www.jsonline.com/business/retired-public-employees-face-more-pension-cuts-2u4fq4g-142281095.html

Tens of thousands of retired public employees in Wisconsin whose pensions have been reduced for four straight years probably will see another cut in 2013.

For tens of thousands more, pension payments will remain frozen at levels that in many cases fall far short of the rate of inflation.

The situation is unprecedented in the history of the plan that covers most teachers and government employees - Milwaukee County and city workers are an exception - in the state.

Many people in the Wisconsin Retirement System have seen their pensions sliced by 11% since 2008. And it would take an extraordinary investment performance to avoid a further reduction next year.

Not everyone is taking cuts. Wisconsin guarantees public retirees that they won't fall below their initial pension level. People who have reached that mark - a rapidly growing number that next year will exceed half of all retirees - are exempt from further reductions.

[pphilfran]

http://theworldlink.com/news/local/states-cut-pension-benefits-for-retirees/article_724f2231-b3fa-557c-9c64-1bda0598083a.html

TRENTON, N.J. -- The security guards at the headquarters of New Jersey's pension fund have never seen anything like it before: lines of public employees extending out the door and into the street.

Day after day, workers come in droves to apply for retirement. They often line up before dawn.

The rush has been set off in part by Republican Gov. Chris Christie's campaign in this cash-strapped state to make government employment -- and retirement -- less lucrative.

Since 2008, New Jersey and at least 19 other states from Wyoming to Rhode Island have rolled back pension benefits or seriously considered doing do -- and not just for new hires, but for current employees and people already retired.

[pphilfran]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/business/hundreds-rally-for-delphi-pensions/nR4w8/

At least 300 salaried Delphi retirees from across Ohio and Indiana rallied in Dayton Thursday, seizing on what they see as new momentum in their three-year fight to have their full pensions restored.

[pphilfran]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/business/01pension.html

Judges in Colorado and Minnesota have dismissed court challenges by retired public workers whose pensions had been cut — developments that may embolden other states and cities to use pension reductions as a tool to help balance their budgets.

[pphilfran]

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_news/blackstone/c-falls-wants-to-cut-pensions-in-half

CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. (WPRI) - City retirees in Central Falls could see their pensions slashed by as much as half under a proposal outlined Tuesday by the cash-strapped city's state-appointed receiver.

Speaking to a meeting of retirees inside Central Falls High School's sweltering auditorium, Robert Flanders told retirees the stunning suggestion was still a better bet than letting the city file for bankruptcy.

"We're in a horrible dilemma as to how to close this gap and we're trying to do this in the fairest way we can," he said. The retirees would have to voluntarily agree to the cuts; Flanders has no power to unilaterally implement them.

[pphilfran]

http://www.newson6.com/story/16167856/american-airline-retirees-could-lose-their-pension

TULSA, Oklahoma -

American Airlines retirees could lose a billion dollars in benefits if the struggling company decides to shed its pension plans.

AMR, the parent company of the airline, filed for bankruptcy protection earlier this week. Now.130, 000 retirees are worried about their financial future.

There's a federal agency designed to make sure retired workers don't lose everything they were promised, if their former companies go under. But this safety net... has holes.

[badger]

There's a federal agency designed to make sure retired workers don't lose everything they were promised, if their former companies go under. But this safety net... has holes.
A few of the holes that I can think of off the top of my head --- pilots by law have to retire in their 50s, but full pension benefits under the federal agency aren't there unless you work to the full retirement age (65 I think). Pensions often pay more than $50k annually but that is the federal agency's limit if I'm not mistaken. Also, the federal agency is nearly broke because so many companies have declared bankruptcy lately to shed pensions, so the money might not be there to fund AA pensions since it's had to fund so many other companies' pensions already.

Love ya Tulsa firefighter, but I just don't think Oklahoma state pensions is a unique situation. :(

[TheHumanAlphabet]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/business/hundreds-rally-for-delphi-pensions/nR4w8/

At least 300 salaried Delphi retirees from across Ohio and Indiana rallied in Dayton Thursday, seizing on what they see as new momentum in their three-year fight to have their full pensions restored.

Yeah, i like how The Socialist killed their retirement with the auto bailout in order to better fund the auto unions retirement.

[sappstuf]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/us/retiree-benefits-for-the-military-could-face-cuts.html?pagewanted=all

Under the current rules, service members who retire after 20 years are eligible for pensions that pay half their salaries for life, indexed for inflation, even if they leave at age 38. They are also eligible for lifetime health insurance through the military’s system, Tricare, at a small fraction of the cost of private insurance, prompting many working veterans to shun employer health plans in favor of military insurance.

Advocates of revamping the systems argue that they are not just fiscally untenable but also unfair.

The annual fee for Tricare Prime, an H.M.O.-like program for military retirees, is just $460 for families and has not risen in years, even as health care costs have skyrocketed. Critics of the system say the contribution could be raised substantially and still be far lower than what civilians pay for employer-sponsored health plans, typically about $4,000.

Who's been spamming my thread?? ;)

I expect the Tricare fee to double pretty soon.. I would complain, but I would probably feel guilty doing it.

[soonercruiser]

Thanks Phil!

You are officially "sin-dicated" on this Thread!
:watermelon:

"TODAY'S BAD RETIREMENT NEWS", by Pphilfran

[soonercruiser]

Who's been spamming my thread?? ;)

I expect the Tricare fee to double pretty soon.. I would complain, but I would probably feel guilty doing it.

Yes! We would have to feel guilty.
But, just wait until you turn 65!
I all goes away.
(Spent almost 3 hours at Tinker this morning, just waiting for 2 refills. Yes! I'm cheap.)

[diverdog]

Marfa, there is no perfect retirement savings plan...defined benefit plans were breaking companies...the financial and government world is littered with plans that are not sustainable...GM and Social Security come to mind...their defined plans sound good at the start but once the retirement base grows to be as large as the workers the thing becomes unsustainable...but you choose to ignore that fact and only spew filth about a way for many people to maximize their retirement income with reasonable and simple investments..

Yes, damn near everybody took a hit in the downturn...but as I showed with a very simple plan you could have returned to your original amount within 2 years...and that doesn't even account for any additional investment at fire sale prices during the downturn...

A person does not have to be a genius to do well in retirement...

1. You need to save more and spend less..if you have a 401K or a defined pension
2. You need to balance your money in a couple of index funds and a fixed asset fund that have low expenses (index funds that most all 401k will have available) and rebalance quarterly (something an 8th grader can do)
3. Dollar cost average - a 401k does this for you with automatic withdrawal
4. You need to know your risk tolerance and as you grow older you limit your exposure even further to the riskier securities...and if your risk tolerance is low then you do not have to put your money in the stock market


That is it...that is all one needs to do to become financially stable in retirement..a person can make it a hell of a lot more difficult if they want to try and milk some additional return but that adds more risk to get that additional return and is not for everyone..


As 'usual you only spew out the negatives and fail to bring out the lower tax consequences when you invest in a 401k...you fail to mention the matching that many companies add to your investment...you fail to mention the number of plans of various risk that are mandatory within a 401k...and you fail to mention that you must get a return that exceeds inflation or your less risky investment means nothing in the long run...

I understand...you hate the markets...and that is fine with me...the less money chasing stocks keeps prices down where I have an even better chance at finding value in a market...

And with this statement "Doctor's typically aren't good business people or money managers." you are blowing further smoke out of your ***...unless you happen to have a link with proof...

With all that said I think the next 10 years are going to be tough on the market...interest rates are not going to decline from current levels...and that will hurt bond holders and stock holders...so I wouldn't be very aggressive with my money at the current time...

Phil:

Based on your last statement that would give us 22 years of bad markets including the last 12.

401K plans are the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on the Middle Class and we are going to be paying for it very soon because that is the next big crisis. The 401K was never designed to be a retirement plan but a narrowly defined benefit for executives at Kodiak and Xerox. The mutual fund companies got a hold of it and marketed it as a great way for people to supplement their retirement income and the next thing you know it replaced it. The same thing is going to happen with HSA's. Most families cannot come close to funding their retirement, health savings accounts and pay for things like education and a home.

Defined pensions in most companies could have been sustained had many companies not allowed their senior executives to rob the company blind. GE is one that comes to mind.

[marfacowboy]

Yikes. Lighten up, Francis. Phil may be a lot of things, but he's no ilk.

And I'm pretty sure he's no neocon.

He's an *******. Read what he wrote.

[diverdog]

http://theworldlink.com/news/local/states-cut-pension-benefits-for-retirees/article_724f2231-b3fa-557c-9c64-1bda0598083a.html

TRENTON, N.J. -- The security guards at the headquarters of New Jersey's pension fund have never seen anything like it before: lines of public employees extending out the door and into the street.

Day after day, workers come in droves to apply for retirement. They often line up before dawn.

The rush has been set off in part by Republican Gov. Chris Christie's campaign in this cash-strapped state to make government employment -- and retirement -- less lucrative.

Since 2008, New Jersey and at least 19 other states from Wyoming to Rhode Island have rolled back pension benefits or seriously considered doing do -- and not just for new hires, but for current employees and people already retired.

Phil:

Most of these problems have arisen because the pensions are based on unrealistic growth rates and the failure of states to fund them. In many cases they have spent the money elsewhere instead of taking care of the pension obligation.

[StoopTroup]

Yeah, after your frothing attack on all things republican during the "Walker Recall" thread, I'm surprised you're not shouting for democrats in Chicago to be put to the stake. If anything, this shows just how greedy unions have become. They are now "THE HAVES" of our society and are draining this country dry along with the other near-do-wells sucking off the gov't teet.

Although I understand how Americans always attack the people that have more than they do or just because they are in a Union and your Grandpaw has preached that Unions are bad and that you should never join one of if your employees should ever Unionize when you became a Multi-billionaire you should just run it into bankruptcy as fast as you can and shut the doors forever....

Exactly what did they personally do to make your life so bad?