Pentagon Escalates Case Against Navy SEAL Author

[soonercruiser]

While the Pentagon and Justice Department doddle on who in the White House was releasing state secrets, they seem to find it easy to investigate & prosecute the Navy Seal who wants to set the record straight on OBama's taking credit for killing OBL.
Duh!


Pentagon Escalates Case Against Navy SEAL Author
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/seal-author-pentagon-secrets/2012/09/06/id/451042?s=al&promo_code=FFE0-1


http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/Political/hypocrisy.jpg

[diverdog]

While the Pentagon and Justice Department doddle on who in the White House was releasing state secrets, they seem to find it easy to investigate & prosecute the Navy Seal who wants to set the record straight on OBama's taking credit for killing OBL.
Duh!


Pentagon Escalates Case Against Navy SEAL Author
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/seal-author-pentagon-secrets/2012/09/06/id/451042?s=al&promo_code=FFE0-1


http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/SoonerCruiser_photos/Political/hypocrisy.jpg

Cruiser:

The bottom line is that he should not talk. When I flew spec ops we signed documents that we could not talk about certain missions. The SEALs are under the same constraints. He should not have written the book. End of story.

[soonercruiser]

Diver,
Legally speaking, you are right.
But, the hypocrisy is that Obama's cabinet can disclose state secrets, and they will get off scott free!
The Justice Dept is Obama's right hand....nothing will come of this treason!
Talk about "FAIRNESS"!

Many "patriots" have acted to bring light to the lies and hypocris;, yes at risk to their lives and fortune.
This author may be one of them. That remains to be seen.
I have the book on order.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Diver,
Legally speaking, you are right.
But, the hypocrisy is that Obama's cabinet can disclose state secrets, and they will get off scott free!
The Justice Dept is Obama's right hand....nothing will come of this treason!
Talk about "FAIRNESS"!

Many "patriots" have acted to bring light to the lies and hypocris;, yes at risk to their lives and fortune.
This author may be one of them. That remains to be seen.
I have the book on order.
Partially agree with this. The government is generating far too many secrets now...transparency needs to be improved

[diverdog]

Diver,
Legally speaking, you are right.
But, the hypocrisy is that Obama's cabinet can disclose state secrets, and they will get off scott free!
The Justice Dept is Obama's right hand....nothing will come of this treason!
Talk about "FAIRNESS"!

Many "patriots" have acted to bring light to the lies and hypocris;, yes at risk to their lives and fortune.
This author may be one of them. That remains to be seen.
I have the book on order.

What secrets have the Obama administration disclosed?

[FaninAma]

I detest secrecy in government even on grounds of national security because the government starts claiming everything is protected by national security or in this case persecute whistleblowers under the pretense of national security.

I will qualify my statement in regards to protection information in ongoing hostile actions but reinterate that national security should not be used to coverup actions forever. There should be a statute of limitations as to how long information can be kept secret for national security reasons.

[Midtowner]

So many folks here apparently support Bradley Manning. Wow.

[rock on sooner]

I detest secrecy in government even on grounds of national security because the government starts claiming everything is protected by national security or in this case persecute whistleblowers under the pretense of national security.

I will qualify my statement in regards to protection information in ongoing hostile actions but reinterate that national security should not be used to coverup actions forever. There should be a statute of limitations as to how long information can be kept secret for national security reasons.

Well, as a non-com in the USAFSS in the 60's I can say that if there WASN'T
secrecy involved, then a LOT of stuff that we knew that the public didn't,
would have really hurt our guys around the world. For those of you that
want transparency, I say to you, you don't know jack about what needs
to be covered and what needs to be opened up. I laugh when I see all
the folks, who don't know diddly, say tell me what's going on. And, all
the time on here, so many talk about how knowedgeable they are. Granted,
my codeword clearance is long since gone, but I can say with pride, that what
we knew, transmitted and reacted to helped this wonderful country be safe and
continues to be that way even today. So, all you RWers, many of whom NEVER
served, can take a flyin leap and just STFU! JMO...

[cleller]

This guy is a let down to me. Why can't you do your job, and not crow about it?

Don't support him any more than the bearded butcher in the other thread.

[diverdog]

I think the public already knows way to much about our special operations folks and their missions.

[Midtowner]

Why's that?

[diverdog]

Case closed. Arrogance and self-importance.....a characteristic shared by all elitist hypocrites and exactly why there should be more transparency so the public can
better monitor the types like you who think their actions
shouldn't be reviewed. Allowed to progress to the
extreme this type of attitude will allow you to justify questionable actions against even your own citizens in the name of national defense.

The government and military want to keep important
secrets from the American public? Fine. But don't expect
us to keep supporting them with our money or the blood of our sons and daughters while they intervene in countries looking for non-existent weapons of mass destruction or to prop up a despotic regime because it is financially beneficial to oil companies and international banks to do so.

And oh, JMO, you can take your STFU and shove it up your azz.

There are times that we have to have secrets that are not shared with the public. Do you think it would be a good idea to let the public know that our subs had gone into Soviet waters, deployed divers and tapped USSR military phone lines at the time it happened? Do you think we should tell the public that we had secretly planted viruses in Iraqi military computers that allowed us to take down their air defenses before he war started? We have to have military and intelligence secrets to keep this nation safe and to save lives.

I have a lot of trust in our military leadership. They understand that they answer to civilian authority and they are extremely reluctant to deploy any kind of force inside the US or outside the US.

As far as the Iraq war is concerned a lot of generals did not want to go in and they were fired for voicing their opinion. I actually hold the press somewhat responsible for the war because they did not question the Bush administration's evidence on WMD's.

[cleller]

Why's that?

Isn't it obvious?

From the internet, you can now read all about the mission, thanks to details that have been provided. Many by the White House. It is not unlikely that our forces will have to conduct similar missions at some point in the future. Potential adversaries now know which branch is most likely to conduct these raids. They know where they are based and trained. They know the methodology behind the training, where they conduct it, that mockups are built, the schedules they follow, the commanders involved, the chain of command that gathers to watch the rehearsals.
They know the number of men involved, the type of helicopters used, and the alterations made to the choppers to slip in. The know the tactics they use to avoid radar and listening posts The equipment and firearms the men carry, the type of body armor, the type of dogs they use, that they have noise cancelling headsets, even what they bring to eat and treat wounded.

The backup teams were spelled out, how many and what type choppers, how close they stayed to the main body, the chopper's armament, and number of rescue team members, their refueling strategy.

They've revealed the way we used satellite info, NSA listening capabilities, which members of the enemy's entourage that were monitored for clues, and how we did it. How we handle the situation with local military and police personnel, the details about approaching under the guise of an immunization drive to try and obtain DNA, (burning a good man's identity in the process)
They've even released info about other plans that we didn't use, such as bombing missions, and alternate routes into Bin Laden's compound.

As for the raid itself, there is nothing secret left about the way it was handled, how the choppers approach, the tactics they use, how to handle civilians, how they plan to escape, even what explosives were used. They've also released info on what types of intelligence we hope to gather during raids, and how we go about doing it.

This kind of wholesale blabbery can only be harmful for future dealings with enemies. Its giving away your playbook. Bob Stoops runs a tighter ship.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle

[FaninAma]

There are times that we have to have secrets that are not shared with the public. Do you think it would be a good idea to let the public know that our subs had gone into Soviet waters, deployed divers and tapped USSR military phone lines at the time it happened? Do you think we should tell the public that we had secretly planted viruses in Iraqi military computers that allowed us to take down their air defenses before he war started? We have to have military and intelligence secrets to keep this nation safe and to save lives.

I have a lot of trust in our military leadership. They understand that they answer to civilian authority and they are extremely reluctant to deploy any kind of force inside the US or outside the US.

As far as the Iraq war is concerned a lot of generals did not want to go in and they were fired for voicing their opinion. I actually hold the press somewhat responsible for the war because they did not question the Bush administration's evidence on WMD's.


I understand the need for secrecy in an ongoing operation but preventing the military's actions from being reviewed forever in the name of national security is bogus. The military and the government need to have oversight other than from themselves. Trusting the government and military too much leads to things like the Patriot Act and the Vietnam War where essentially 45,000 US servicemen's lives were wasted and scores of others sent home disabled not to mention forays into nation building in cultures we don't even understand and can never hope to change by military operations.


I personally know 15 people who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. My best friend in high school's only son was killed in the first 2 weeks of action in Iraq. 2 who served in Afghanistan now have autoimmune disorders that are very rare in the general population but occur frequently in those who served in Afghanistan. My cousin committed suicide shortly after coming back from Afghanistan. Another has developed a severe drinking problem and has been divorced twice since coming back. And most of them have told me that the general population over there hates us and really don't want us there. They seem to prefer the Taliban who likes to chop off heads and kill those they consider infidels.

I admire the young men and women who serve our country but I simply do not trust the leaders of the government and military to use the precious resource of our young people wisely.
And I disagree that we go reluctanly into foreign countries. Can you name me one other country who has sent troops into as many countries as we have over the past 40 years?

The only reason the Navy Seal is in trouble is because somebody up the chain of command(probably the White House) feels he embarrassed them. Therefore they will use the pretense of national security to punish him for this "horrible" transgression.

[diverdog]

I understand the need for secrecy in an ongoing operation but preventing the military's actions from being reviewed forever in the name of national security is bogus. The military and the government need to have oversight other than from themselves. Trusting the government and military too much leads to things like the Patriot Act and the Vietnam War where essentially 45,000 US servicemen's lives were wasted and scores of others sent home disabled not to mention forays into nation building in cultures we don't even understand and can never hope to change by military operations.


I personally know 15 people who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. My best friend in high school's only son was killed in the first 2 weeks of action in Iraq. 2 who served in Afghanistan now have autoimmune disorders that are very rare in the general population but occur frequently in those who served in Afghanistan. My cousin committed suicide shortly after coming back from Afghanistan. Another has developed a severe drinking problem and has been divorced twice since coming back. And most of them have told me that the general population over there hates us and really don't want us there. They seem to prefer the Taliban who likes to chop off heads and kill those they consider infidels.

I admire the young men and women who serve our country but I simply do not trust the leaders of the government and military to use the precious resource of our young people wisely.
And I disagree that we go reluctanly into foreign countries. Can you name me one other country who has sent troops into as many countries as we have over the past 40 years?

The only reason the Navy Seal is in trouble is because somebody up the chain of command(probably the White House) feels he embarrassed them. Therefore they will use the pretense of national security to punish him for this "horrible" transgression.

Sorry to hear about your family and friends. It has been an awfully tough slog over there and it has taken a toll on a lot of peoples lives. My prayers are with them.

Had I not gotten hurt I would have probably had a few tours by now. I just saw a friend of mine from my squadron who is getting ready to sew on Chief Master Sergeant and I was telling him how much I missed flying. We did a lot of missions together and he was a great guy. I do not like war but I had some really close friends and I feel like I let them down by not being there.

The military....our government for that matter...really does not have a defined protocol on what is suppose to be secret, how long it should be kept and when it should be released. I can tell you from experience a lot of stuff that I read that was TS was on CNN that very night. We use to laugh that CNN should be part of our intel briefing. We sure as **** they put a tv in the briefing room with CNN on it. LOL.

People do not realize that there a lots of levels of security clearance. Secret and Top Secret are at the low end. Then you move into crypto and compartmentalize stuff. I had friends whose clearance levels were only known to people who had Top Secret or above. My suspicions are the clearances that are really high are the guys who know about nuclear weapons targeting or view satellite data.

As far as top secret stuff being released to the public I believe there was some work on a statue of limitations. It might be 40 or 50 years. Some of it could be cleared earlier. A lot of it is probably not even worth reading.

I think the author of the book is going through normal scrutiny and may get in some sort of minor trouble. He is really not being singled out. The military does not like kiss and tell books and really frowns on books being published right after a covert mission. Where the problem comes into play is that we lost that damn helicopter and failed to destroy it. Whey they left the rotor intact is beyond me. All of that helicopter should have been destroyed. That rotor housing really caused a stir and we were given insight into a very classified piece of military hardware. That was not good.

The White House released some information but a lot of it has come from other sources...Pakistani ISI, media expert witnesses, leaks from the units themselves and public officials. What I think would be best for all involved would have been for the publisher to have given the Pentagon some say in the contents of the book. I know this flies in the face of the freedom of speech but it may have saved a few people from any problems.

Finally, I have to question Cruisers source. Newsmax is a far right wing publication. In this political season I would be really surprised if any action would be taken against this SEAL because it would look bad. The bureaucrats are going to go through the process but at the end of the day he either gets away clean or gets a fine. JMO

Here is the Pentagon directive on publications in case you want to read it. I thought it was a little vague:

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/

[rock on sooner]

DD, the statute varied with the sensitivity. Some of the stuff I did in the
60's is still classified and some isn't. A lot of it saw sunshine after all the
base closings because those missions were taken over by satellite technology.
A base in the UK, one in Germany, one in Turkey and one in Pakistan all
closed within months of each other, with other bases taking over the missions
until the appropriate birds were in orbit.

Fanima, I, too, extend my sympathies to your family and friends. Breaks my
heart when I read the obits of the young warriors, the best we have to offer.

That said, elitist? arrogant? hypocrite? nothing could be further from the truth.
What gets my blood pumping is when ANYONE rattles their mouth with nonsense
about what they think should be public, when they don't know what they're talking
about. Somebody mentioned Manning, I genuinely believe some posters on here
think he should get a medal, not a jail term!

Oh, and FYI, the STFU won't fit 'cause too many other RWers expressed their opinions.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Books are written to make money. Truth should be submitted to a blind review journal.

[KantoSooner]

Secrecy and the 'we don't know what we don't know' factor for our enemies are critical tools for espionage and special operations. When one enters that service, there are legal burdens that you continue to carry long after you leave, some of them last through the end of your life. More importantly, there are obligations of secrecy you owe to your fellows and to those who follow after you in the service.

The clown who wrote this book violated both, in my view. Sue his ***, jail him and, to his fellow SEALS, shun him forever.

He might just as well have taken a consulting job with Iran's Quds Force.

[FaninAma]

My response to rock on was made in anger and I apologize for that. This is just a touchy subject for me because I believe that we misuse our military......especially the young men and women who serve in the military. I would just like the politicians to make sure they are expending the blood of some of the best young people in the country for a purpose that is truly in the interest of the country and not the economic interest of a few multi- national banks. And I think hiding behind the "national security" excuse is weak and is abused by self-serving politicians and eltists.

Diverdog, your words pf support are appreciated. One of the friends that has an autoimmune disorder is my nurse who joined the national guard so she could help get some assistance in paying her way through LPN training. She was sent to Afghanistan for 2 tours even though she had 3 kids, the oldest of which was 6 at the time. She told me that so many vets are coming back from Afghanistan have this fairly rare disorder or similiar disorders that the military has set up huge support groups and special assistance to he them.

[FaninAma]

Secrecy and the 'we don't know what we don't know' factor for our enemies are critical tools for espionage and special operations. When one enters that service, there are legal burdens that you continue to carry long after you leave, some of them last through the end of your life. More importantly, there are obligations of secrecy you owe to your fellows and to those who follow after you in the service.

The clown who wrote this book violated both, in my view. Sue his ***, jail him and, to his fellow SEALS, shun him
forever.

He might just as well have taken a consulting job with Iran's Quds Force.

I would be fine with that if the leaders who sent him into
action were held accountable for their violation of the
trust we place in them to use the military wisely and in a
non-political way.

BTW, has Iran deposed our duly elected leader and replaced him in a coup with a ruthless dictator the way we and Great Britain replaced Mosaddegh with the Shah 50 years ago?

That single incident probably did more to fuel fanatical Islamacist than anything that has taken place since in the
region. And I am sure it was done in the name of our national interest/security.

Then we turned around and backed Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war that led to the loss of millions of lives. That worked out well for us....don't you think?

The more we meddle and try to exert our influence in the region under the guise of national security the more hostility we create towards our country and the more
anti-American the region becomes.

[rock on sooner]

My response to rock on was made in anger and I apologize for that. This is just a touchy subject for me because I believe that we misuse our military......especially the young men and women who serve in the military. I would just like the politicians to make sure they are expending the blood of some of the best young people in the country for a purpose that is truly in the interest of the country and not the economic interest of a few multi- national banks. And I think hiding behind the "national security" excuse is weak and is abused by self-serving politicians and eltists.

'Pology accepted. I gotta a little hot under the collar, too, 'cause I
see and hear so many talk about things they clearly don't know
anything about. And, you're right, there are those in gov't who
hide behind "national security".

[olevetonahill]

Hell theres things I did in the 60s I dont want to EVER be told :very_drunk:

[LiveLaughLove]

I think the public already knows way to much about our special operations folks and their missions.

I totally agree. I have been concerned at how much we are learning about these folks that we just don't need to know.

Bradley Manning divulged info that could have and probably has led to undercover operatives lives being lost. I don't think anyone is accusing this guy of that yet.

I don't like that he published a book though either. Keep your mouth shut and do your duty and know inside you that you did it to the best of your ability. That's commendation enough.

[rock on sooner]

I totally agree. I have been concerned at how much we are learning about these folks that we just don't need to know.

Bradley Manning divulged info that could have and probably has led to undercover operatives lives being lost. I don't think anyone is accusing this guy of that yet.

I don't like that he published a book though either. Keep your mouth shut and do your duty and know inside you that you did it to the best of your ability. That's commendation enough.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[rock on sooner]

Hell theres things I did in the 60s I dont want to EVER be told :very_drunk:

Yehbut, Vet, wuz nashinul scurity involved? N hope we dint disturb
yer nap too much...:biggrin:

[olevetonahill]

Yehbut, Vet, wuz nashinul scurity involved? N hope we dint disturb
yer nap too much...:biggrin:

Coulda prolly caused an International incident er 2 at the time :very_drunk:

[rock on sooner]

Coulda prolly caused an International incident er 2 at the time :very_drunk:

Yew musta made some sorta unauthorized undercover incursion...:congratulatory:

[olevetonahill]

Yew musta made some sorta unauthorized undercover incursion...:congratulatory:

A few times they was Authorized . Some times a Man just got take care of things on his own

[rock on sooner]

A few times they was Authorized . Some times a Man just got take care of things on his own

I got ta thinkin after I typed that it might have been too hot fer
undercover....:biggrin:

[soonercruiser]

What secrets have the Obama administration disclosed?

I hate it when you have to explain the news stories of recent months to someone who probably only watches MSNBSD.
:ambivalence:

[soonercruiser]

Yew musta made some sorta unauthorized undercover incursion...:congratulatory:

Was proly just "all in a day's work" for the women!
:texan:

[olevetonahill]

I got ta thinkin after I typed that it might have been too hot fer
undercover....:biggrin:

Heh, I got IN , I got out
I did get MINE tho.

[Wishboned]

When I was in back in the 80's that was something they always stressed. You didn't talk about where you went, how you got there, what you did while you were there, and what you used to get the job done. If you do you're putting your buddies lives in danger.

There were times I would get a call in the middle of the night and be gone for weeks. I couldn't even tell my wife where I had been.

In my opinion this guy is a piece of **** who sold out his buddies for cash and to score political points.

[olevetonahill]

When I was in back in the 80's that was something they always stressed. You didn't talk about where you went, how you got there, what you did while you were there, and what you used to get the job done. If you do you're putting your buddies lives in danger.

There were times I would get a call in the middle of the night and be gone for weeks. I couldn't even tell my wife where I had been.

In my opinion this guy is a piece of **** who sold out his buddies for cash and to score political points.

Now here is an Opinion I respect

[KantoSooner]

I would be fine with that if the leaders who sent him into
action were held accountable for their violation of the
trust we place in them to use the military wisely and in a
non-political way.

BTW, has Iran deposed our duly elected leader and replaced him in a coup with a ruthless dictator the way we and Great Britain replaced Mosaddegh with the Shah 50 years ago?

That single incident probably did more to fuel fanatical Islamacist than anything that has taken place since in the
region. And I am sure it was done in the name of our national interest/security.

Then we turned around and backed Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war that led to the loss of millions of lives. That worked out well for us....don't you think?

The more we meddle and try to exert our influence in the region under the guise of national security the more hostility we create towards our country and the more
anti-American the region becomes.



Actually, if you study the history, our political leaders, by and large, have a pretty good track record of using our military and secret services wisely. Not perfect, by any stretch, but not bad.

As to our 'meddling', we'll just have to disagree. We've had, as a nation, an ongoing debate since before we were a nation about what our role in the greater world should be. Washington's fantastic farewell address was not the first time the subject was treated, but certainly shows that the issue has been around a while.

Since at least the First World War, we've had a general consensus that we can and should act to head off what our representative leadership sees as threats. Was Mossadegh the existential communist threat he was seen as being at the time? Most likely not. And neither were Jacobo Arbenz or Patrice Lamumba. Frankly, Castro hasn't been that big a deal for our security and we live quite nicely with 'Communist' Vietnam.

On the other hand, the Soviets really DID intend on taking over the world (apologies to Pinky and The Brain) and were making decent-ish progress in that direction, so I am willing to cut the administrations of the day some slack. They did a pretty good job given what they knew at the time.

And as to our 'meddlling' being some sort of original sin in the MidEast, codswallop. The MidEast was terminally ****ed by the mandate system in the wake of WWI. Or, wait, it was ****ed up by the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. No, it was ****ed up and made permanently anti-western by 'The West's' bias in favor of the Jews (just ask the Jews about how much preferment they've experienced at the hands of the Christian West). Or maybe it was the Crusades. Damn the French anyway; they always mess things up!

My modestly humorous attempt was simply to show that, if you are looking for excuses for anything, anywhere, you'll find them. The Iranian revolution was extremely complex and had as much to do with the Pahlevi's farm support (or lack thereof) system as it did with our involvement in Mossadegh's overthrow.

And in that same vein, we are not 'to blame' that Iraq has been unable to move beyond a medieval tribal societal structure...or that Lebanon can't seem to shed dynastic politics that would make Tony Soprano feel comfy...or, etc. We should do a more serious job of trying to understand what's going on before we kick off our next incursion (and I'm looking at Big Don Rumsfeld and his expectations that invading Iraq was going to be Patton riding into Gay Paree redux, wine, roses and a little quick nookie and then back home for parades and a standing O at Yankee Stadium). But, no, we're not responsible for the mess in the MidEast.

And those poor *******s over there, stunted by their neo-lithic religion and stymied by their endless clan-based squabbles, have forever had scape goats for problems of their own creation. To the extent that we come into the conversation, it's because we're handy.

[Curly Bill]

Sorry to hear about your family and friends. It has been an awfully tough slog over there and it has taken a toll on a lot of peoples lives. My prayers are with them.

Had I not gotten hurt I would have probably had a few tours by now. I just saw a friend of mine from my squadron who is getting ready to sew on Chief Master Sergeant and I was telling him how much I missed flying. We did a lot of missions together and he was a great guy. I do not like war but I had some really close friends and I feel like I let them down by not being there.

The military....our government for that matter...really does not have a defined protocol on what is suppose to be secret, how long it should be kept and when it should be released. I can tell you from experience a lot of stuff that I read that was TS was on CNN that very night. We use to laugh that CNN should be part of our intel briefing. We sure as **** they put a tv in the briefing room with CNN on it. LOL.

People do not realize that there a lots of levels of security clearance. Secret and Top Secret are at the low end. Then you move into crypto and compartmentalize stuff. I had friends whose clearance levels were only known to people who had Top Secret or above. My suspicions are the clearances that are really high are the guys who know about nuclear weapons targeting or view satellite data.

As far as top secret stuff being released to the public I believe there was some work on a statue of limitations. It might be 40 or 50 years. Some of it could be cleared earlier. A lot of it is probably not even worth reading.

I think the author of the book is going through normal scrutiny and may get in some sort of minor trouble. He is really not being singled out. The military does not like kiss and tell books and really frowns on books being published right after a covert mission. Where the problem comes into play is that we lost that damn helicopter and failed to destroy it. Whey they left the rotor intact is beyond me. All of that helicopter should have been destroyed. That rotor housing really caused a stir and we were given insight into a very classified piece of military hardware. That was not good.

The White House released some information but a lot of it has come from other sources...Pakistani ISI, media expert witnesses, leaks from the units themselves and public officials. What I think would be best for all involved would have been for the publisher to have given the Pentagon some say in the contents of the book. I know this flies in the face of the freedom of speech but it may have saved a few people from any problems.

Finally, I have to question Cruisers source. Newsmax is a far right wing publication. In this political season I would be really surprised if any action would be taken against this SEAL because it would look bad. The bureaucrats are going to go through the process but at the end of the day he either gets away clean or gets a fine. JMO

Here is the Pentagon directive on publications in case you want to read it. I thought it was a little vague:

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/

I had one of those. I signed a document when I left saying I could be given life in prison or executed for disclosing these things.

edit...anyone wanna help me write a book?

[FaninAma]

Kanto,

My only reply to you is if a foreign power had intervened in my country as much as the US has in the middle east, and more specifically Iran, I would teach my children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren to hate them and resist their interventionism.

I think you are way overly-optimistic in your view of our interventionism around the world. Vietnam was a total failure. Our middle east policy has been an abysmal failure.

You have to go back to the Korean War to really be able to say that our intervention in another country had some beneficial effect. You may argue the Cold War was a success but I would counter that we simply spent the Soviet Union into oblivion and their archaic economic system collapsed under the weight of trying to keep up with our military spending. Of course our own long range economic health was also damaged in this war of attrition.

Meanwhile, the Chinese just sat back, watched and learned. While we spent ourselves into a deep hole they concentrated on their economy becoming more capatilistic and in the process becoming one of our biggest creditors as we borrowed more andd more money.

[Skysooner]

Kanto,

My only reply to you is if a foreign power had intervened in my country as much as the US has in the middle east, and more specifically Iran, I would teach my children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren to hate them and resist their interventionism.

I think you are way overly-optimistic in your view of our interventionism around the world. Vietnam was a total failure. Our middle east policy has been an abysmal failure.

You have to go back to the Korean War to really be able to say that our intervention in another country had some beneficial effect. You may argue the Cold War was a success but I would counter that we simply spent the Soviet Union into oblivion and their archaic economic system collapsed under the weight of trying to keep up with our military spending. Of course our own long range economic health was also damaged in this war of attrition.

Meanwhile, the Chinese just sat back, watched and learned. While we spent ourselves into a deep hole they concentrated on their economy becoming more capatilistic and in the process becoming one of our biggest creditors as we borrowed more andd more money.

I have a commercial pilot that lives down the street from me that flew in Vietnam. He still insists that we could have "won" had our government had the guts to allow them to invade North Vietnam, etc. Yes we might have "won", but the cost would have been ridiculous in terms of life. We should never have been there. Hindsight is always much easier. I totally agree although China has a ton of problems itself.

[rock on sooner]

Now here is an Opinion I respect

Yup, me too. Ifn the pentagon can get its way then this guy
shunt get a penny! Have the book on order but dont know yet.
What Ive seen hes pushin it...

[rock on sooner]

Heh, I got IN , I got out
I did get MINE tho.

BIG question here, didja git in & out clean? Dint have that
issue where I wuz but, once in a while there wuz a question,
since one er two groaned some, werent too smart....

[8timechamps]

It pisses me off that this jack-*** is trying to make money from his book. You know what you're in for when you are accepted to be a SpecOps member. You don't do so that you can write a book and make money later. I have no problem with this fool going to the big house.

[cleller]

It pisses me off that this jack-*** is trying to make money from his book. You know what you're in for when you are accepted to be a SpecOps member. You don't do so that you can write a book and make money later. I have no problem with this fool going to the big house.

He'll get some democrat lawyer to get him out of it.


That's supposed to sound ironic.

[FaninAma]

And those poor *******s over there, stunted by their neo-lithic religion and stymied by their endless clan-based squabbles, have forever had scape goats for problems of their own creation. To the extent that we come into the conversation, it's because we're handy.

Which begs the question of why we keep getting involved. I support Israel and I agree our support for them in non-negotiable.

I suspect your "we are handy" comment refers to the fact that we are surrogates for the Europeans who are dependent on the oil from the Middle East. My question is, what are we getting in return? We could easily be energy independent and free of the need to worry about
what happens with the oil in the Middle East. The way to lessen the impact of the region is to lessen the world's dependence on their oil.

African factions have killed each other by the hundreds of thousands over the past 50 years but the world doesn't care because they heve nothing we really need save the
small amount of oil in Nigeria.

[soonercruiser]

Could it be that this jack*** is trying to tell the truth about the operation, and therefore give the credit back to the troops.....rather than let the jack*** in the WH take credit for it!
Kinda like reminding folks that Clinton had OBL in his sights 12 times.....and didn't pull the trigger.
Obama is too busy playing golf to work on the deficit. Clinton was too busy playin' with cigars and WH interns to kill a terrorist.

But, I do know what you SO folks are saying.
But, again....what about the WH leaks?
Fairness?

[Wishboned]

Could it be that this jack*** is trying to tell the truth about the operation, and therefore give the credit back to the troops.....rather than let the jack*** in the WH take credit for it!
Kinda like reminding folks that Clinton had OBL in his sights 12 times.....and didn't pull the trigger.
Obama is too busy playing golf to work on the deficit. Clinton was too busy playin' with cigars and WH interns to kill a terrorist.

But, I do know what you SO folks are saying.
But, again....what about the WH leaks?
Fairness?

Fairness? What the hell does fairness have to do with any of this crap? This ain't no game where you point at the other guy and whine, "It's just not fair!!!! He didn't get in trouble!! Waaaaahhhhhh!!"

First of all you don't sign up for Spec Ops for any type of credit. If you do then you're ****ed up like a soup sandwich. Let whatever empty suit is in the White House take all the credit they want. We all know who did the real work.

Second of all, it's sad to say but you expect this crap out of some pencil pushing REMF *******, or at least your'e not that surprised when they do it, but not the guys who do the actual work. They should be held to a higher standard. They should hold themselves to a higher standard. And the majority of the time they do. This ******* is a rare exception to the rule.

If they find the bastard in the Pentagon that's been leaking information then prosecute the hell out of them. But this ******* needs to be prosecuted, and the proceeds from his book given to a charity to benefit the families of fallen soldiers. And then he needs to be thrown in a cell next to Bradley Manning.

[diverdog]

Fairness? What the hell does fairness have to do with any of this crap? This ain't no game where you point at the other guy and whine, "It's just not fair!!!! He didn't get in trouble!! Waaaaahhhhhh!!"

First of all you don't sign up for Spec Ops for any type of credit. If you do then you're ****ed up like a soup sandwich. Let whatever empty suit is in the White House take all the credit they want. We all know who did the real work.

Second of all, it's sad to say but you expect this crap out of some pencil pushing REMF *******, or at least your'e not that surprised when they do it, but not the guys who do the actual work. They should be held to a higher standard. They should hold themselves to a higher standard. And the majority of the time they do. This ******* is a rare exception to the rule.

If they find the bastard in the Pentagon that's been leaking information then prosecute the hell out of them. But this ******* needs to be prosecuted, and the proceeds from his book given to a charity to benefit the families of fallen soldiers. And then he needs to be thrown in a cell next to Bradley Manning.

Saw the interview on 60 Minutes. Most of the profits are going to charities that benefit fallen soldiers families.

He also said that if any credit should be given to anyone it was the helicopter pilots. Said it was just another day for the SEALs.

[KantoSooner]

Dear FaninAma,
As earlier, we'll have to disagree. Our foreign policy over the past century has been a notable success. We have, in that time:
1. Destroyed not one, but two 'Slave Trading Totalitarian Cancers' (to paraphrase Tom Wolfe). That's Hitler's Germany and Soviet Russia if you're counting. And, yes, we really did defeat the Soviets; it wasn't just a happy accident. Read the 'Mr. X' articles from Foreign Affairs in the 1930's. We had a plan and executed on it for almost 60 years with remarkable bi-partisan cooperation and grim determination and it worked. And many of the supposed 'failures' of our foreign policy came as we tried to execute on this strategy. Show me a war without any miscues.
2. Reintegrated China into the world economy without a war. Probably the single largest acheivement of modern day US diplomacy. Taking a fifth of the world's population, isolated from the world economy for 150 years and stick 'em back in without anymore disruption than we actually saw? Mind blowing.
3. Over all slowing and reversing of military dictatorships across the globe. S. Korea? Philippines? Indonesia? Most of Sub-Sahran Africa? Most of S. America? Did we 'do' this by ourselves? Of course not. But our 'meddling' was helpful.

These would be examples of successes caused largely or partly through our involvement in diplomacy, espionage or outright military intervention.

The examples of disasters averted is more difficult to catalog, simply because you're attempting to measure a non-event. Were we involved in supporting Yeltsin's strength against the counter revolution of the Soviet generals? Perhaps; we've had historic communications links with the Soviet/Russian military. We almost surely contributed to the peaceful collapse of apartheid in South Africa.

None of this means we don't make collosal mistakes. We should have told the French to **** off and supported Ho Chi Minh. We should, likewise help the Israelis to see that acting like Nazis themselves is not in any way honoring their dead or ensuring their longterm security. And we should pay more attention to the war in central Africa (if for no other reason because of their natural resources which go vastly beyond Nigeria's oil).

I don't think the evidence supports a conclusion that our foreign policy has been a failure.

[FaninAma]

Kanto,

I don't disagree at all with your assessment with our successes of WWII and the Cold War although I will propose that Europe, Japan and a lot of the rest of the world sat back and allowed us to do most of the heavy lifting in the Cold War and that our military and foreign aid spending during this time has contributed more than a little to our current budget deficit as well as promoted the policy that we have to be the world's policeman......a concept that has led to even more military spending. And I will again point out that the Vietnam War was part of the Cold War policy of containment and was an abysmal failure.

And as far as taking credit for China becoming more capatilistic...please expalin what we did specifically to cause them to do that? I propose that they had a moderation of the leadership and were smart enough to see where the USSR ended up under a collectivist economy. They really had no other choice. Claiming the US was somehow responsible is a bit of a stretch, IMO.


And with the recent "Islamic Spring" uprisings I think there is good evidence that the new regimes may be even more hostile to the US that the regimes they are replacing. And the recent increase in suicide bombings in Iraq seems to indicate that that country is growing periously close into dinstergrating into an all-out civil war.

I am tired of this country being the world's policeman and I am tired of this country jumping into military operations that have goals other than the complete defeat of an enemy who is actually threatening our security. And I am very tired of using the military to change the culture of a region or for nation building.

Do we really need a military budget that is larger than the next several countries who rank #2 to 8 combined?

[SoonerProphet]

And as far as taking credit for China becoming more capatilistic...please expalin what we did specifically to cause them to do that? I propose that they had a moderation of the leadership and were smart enough to see where the USSR ended up under a collectivist economy. They really had no other choice. Claiming the US was somehow responsible is a bit of a stretch, IMO.


kinda agree with this. end of cultural revolution and the death of zhou enlai did more for china that kissinger or nixon.

not buying the destroyed two totalitarian states gig either. the soviets did an increbible amount of heavy lifting over the nazis. japan a bit different. kennan wrote in the 40's not 30s.

[KantoSooner]

Prophet, Sorry, I thought Mr. X came out when Kennan was working at the Embassy in Moscow in the 1930's, but I'm old school and don't wiki everything. And the brain is belabored with bourbon after a Saturday well spent.

Fanin, On China's reintegration, we did an immense amount of diplomatic cajoling and also worked very hard to get China back into roles in the IMF, the World Bank and the rest of governing institutions, we also made it possible for their banks to hook back up with the rest of the world and were very proactive with business exchanges, etc. They may have seen the writing on the wall, but the US did a lot to give them skin in the game, quickly; and that gave them incentive to go ahead and play, rather than pulling a North Korea.

As to the wars, no, we weren't the sole actors in any of them. And the Soviets did the most dying, certainly vs. the Nazis. But we sure as hell 'meddled' in those conflicts.

I don't think we are required to be the only actor involved to gain outcomes we desire. In some cases, our best course is to sit out events. Arguably, a lot of things we've done in the past, recent and distant, contributed to the Arab Spring, for example. And you know what? I think the Arab Spring is ultimately going to be a good thing. Why, when you completely accurately point out that many of the inheritors will be anti-American? Because where they were was untenable and was going to collapse anyway. And many of the forces released (Muslim Brotherhood, for one) are going to have their day in the sun one way or another. Might as well get on with it and get through it. India and Indonesia offer interesting examples of what can happen. And, in both cases they are turning into fairly reasonable actors. And, oh, we've meddled in both.

Do we have to be 'the policeman'? Are others free riding on our coattails? No and yes. And it doesn't really matter. So long as we look after our own interests, writ large, we'll be just fine.

And if from time to time, some Hugo Chavez type makes political hay out of the fact that we always seem to be around when perhaps various people might like a little privacy, well, screw him. Our foreign services are doing their jobs to defend our interests, theirs can get on with defending theirs.

[FaninAma]

Kanto, I really don't have a huge problem with diplomacy and negotiations(including economic sanctions). I start to view our actions negatively when we start throwing our militray weight around in situations that really don't call for sending in troops. And we shouldn't be assisting coups in countries where their leaders were elected like Allende in Chile, Mossadegh in Iran and Ngo Dình Diem in South Vietnam. None of those situations worked out well for us.

In regards to economic sanctions I will say they never seem to work because we are unwilling to punish those countries who claim to be our allies with any consequences. If France wants to continue to do business with Iran slap an import fee on their products coming into the country or an extra tax on American citizens traveling to France for vacations.

I understand the risk of retaliation but let me ask you, who has the most ecopnomic clout? Who's markets would other countries be most afraid of losing access to? Why not be as willing to use our economic clout as we are to send kids off to die in operations that have shakey goals and even worse long-lasting beneficial results?

BTW, our billions in foreign aid have really payed dividends in pakistan , haven't they? http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/10/exclusive-jailed-doc-who-helped-nail-bin-laden-warns-us-seen-as-pakistan-worst/

[KantoSooner]

I guess I view things in more shades of gray. I think you're very rarely going to get 'the good war' where there's no moral ambiguity and where the bad guys have the decency to stand still while you kill them.

So I'm more willing to put up with situations where the goal from the beginning should be to frustrate, delay and otherwise **** with; but where you know you're not going to throw a punch.

And sometimes people on our side are going to get hurt or killed doing that.

And that does not make the policies, the actions or the people who conceive of or order the actions stupid or evil. It's simply the way life is when you're a nation state with enough clout to try and influence the world around you.

I guess my point would be that we've had the game stacked heavily in our favor at least since 1945. I'm not prepared to retreat to fortress America simply because it's a grind.

Use sanctions when and where you will, use espionage when and where it works and use the military when and where you need to. Big tool box.

[FaninAma]

And yet another example of our government hiding important information from the public to try and get them to support the policies they want them to support.
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-exclusive-memos-show-us-hushed-soviet-crime-132109652.html

I wonder how the public would have reacted to FDR acting so chummy with Stalin at Yalta had they known about things like this?

How much other crap did FDR hide from the American public in order to gain support for the goals he wanted to achieve? Oh, but the end justify the means....right? Well, as long as you agree with their desired end. See how slippery that slope becomes?

[KantoSooner]

Consder the Jack speech from A Few Good Men as given.

They're our representatives. We delegate the decision making to them. You want to be part of the process? Go get a job at State, DOD, CIA or the WH.

FDR sold the Poles and most of Eastern Europe down the river because of crap advice and a general 'socialism-is-the-wave-of-the-future' mind set that ruled the State Department and most of academia at the time. There was a lot of it going around.

I don't get the frothing at the mouth reaction. This is all pretty common knowledge now and it implies that there is a lot of unseemly stuff going on to this day. One difference today is that we have a FISA court and joint committee on intelligence with pretty much unfettered access.

Looking for Athenian Democracy, are we?

[FaninAma]

Consder the Jack speech from A Few Good Men as given.

They're our representatives. We delegate the decision making to them. You want to be part of the process? Go get a job at State, DOD, CIA or the WH.

FDR sold the Poles and most of Eastern Europe down the river because of crap advice

and a general 'socialism-is-the-wave-of-the-future' mind set that ruled the State Department and most of
academia at the time. There was a lot of it going around.

I don't get the frothing at the mouth reaction. This is all pretty common knowledge now and it implies that there is a lot of unseemly stuff going on to this day. One
difference today is that we have a FISA court and joint committee on intelligence with pretty much
unfettered access.

Looking for Athenian Democracy, are we?

I like reading your opinions but this particular post smacks just a little bit of elitism where the ignorant masses are told its none of our business.....just shut up and send us your money and kids when we tell you we need them.

I think the book The Power Elite explains it well. Here is a synopsis of the book on Wiki. I would refer you to the summary of chapter 12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_Elite


The constant involvement of the nation in wars (and the making of crises as permanent and total) makes it possible for the power elite to use national security as a pretext for secrecy of intentions and in planning and execution.

[soonercruiser]

Fairness? What the hell does fairness have to do with any of this crap? This ain't no game where you point at the other guy and whine, "It's just not fair!!!! He didn't get in trouble!! Waaaaahhhhhh!!"

First of all you don't sign up for Spec Ops for any type of credit. If you do then you're ****ed up like a soup sandwich. Let whatever empty suit is in the White House take all the credit they want. We all know who did the real work.

Second of all, it's sad to say but you expect this crap out of some pencil pushing REMF *******, or at least your'e not that surprised when they do it, but not the guys who do the actual work. They should be held to a higher standard. They should hold themselves to a higher standard. And the majority of the time they do. This ******* is a rare exception to the rule.

If they find the bastard in the Pentagon that's been leaking information then prosecute the hell out of them. But this ******* needs to be prosecuted, and the proceeds from his book given to a charity to benefit the families of fallen soldiers. And then he needs to be thrown in a cell next to Bradley Manning.

RACIST!

[Wishboned]

RACIST!

Ummmm...okay...

[KantoSooner]

Fanin: It would be more elitist if I didn't include myself in those groups of people who really don't need to know everything. And I consider myself to be every bit as capable as most of the folks sitting at desks in DC. It's just that I've chosen a different path in my life and find it in the best interests of my country to not demand full access or to grouse about not being called in each and every time there's a hard decision to be made.

Your point regarding the power elite is well taken, however. Ref to Eisenhower's 'Military Industrial Complex' speech and to Seymour Melman's 'The Permanent War Economy' for two other on point reads.

I simply don't feel that our elected officials and their appointed executors are that evil or out of touch. Yes, DC can be an echo chamber from which vantage point the concerns of 'main street' may look petty; but I really have not found the majority of our foreign affairs workers to be stupid, callous, evil or in the service of any particular secret agenda.

I did have the opportunity to talk with a fair number during the 20 years I worked in Asia. And the worst criticism I have is that they were awfully parochial. Few had any real ability in the language of the country in which they were working and thus could not read the local papers, listen to local radio or tv. Their area studies preparation for the posting was superficial at best and no time was allowed for them to continue study of the area once they were in-country. Most were bound by very restrictive travel rules that forbid them to venture outside the capitol city. And, for career reasons, they were very focused on organizational politics at HQ and looking to get back there asap. But they were professional, intelligent and caring people who were doing their best to do a good job. I blame their masters and a culture of performance metric based management for the short sighted results, not the individuals.

[FaninAma]

Kanto, I drew this quote out of your last post because I think that is where we differ the most on this issue:

I simply don't feel that our elected officials and their appointed executors are that evil or out of touch.

I distrust them immensley, not because I think they are inherantly evil but because they make decisions based on motivation and goals that are designed to : 1. Keep themseves in power and 2. insulate themselves from the consequences of their own decisions.

In other words, they make decisions about issues in a way that is designed to benefit them. If it helps the non-elite then that's ok but not their primary concern.

[KantoSooner]

And I wouldn't say you were 100% wrong on that. I would probably draw the line a bit more toward the middle.
I suppose I really expect altruism from much of anyone; and thus am less prone to disappointment.

[KantoSooner]

That's I DON'T expect.... makes more sense that way....

[SoonerProphet]

Your point regarding the power elite is well taken, however. Ref to Eisenhower's 'Military Industrial Complex' speech and to Seymour Melman's 'The Permanent War Economy' for two other on point reads.

I simply don't feel that our elected officials and their appointed executors are that evil or out of touch. Yes, DC can be an echo chamber from which vantage point the concerns of 'main street' may look petty; but I really have not found the majority of our foreign affairs workers to be stupid, callous, evil or in the service of any particular secret agenda.

while evil might not be an appropriate term, were not talking reinhard heydrich here, but out of touch, stupid, and callous might not be much of a stretch. one just has to recollect madame albright's quip a few years back on 60minutes as a prime example of bureaucratic callousness in the international arena.

one can also argue the whole kantian with cruise missiles/idealism of spreading democracy and the myth that wars will dissapear by building civil societies on our dime. while i'd agree the agenda is not necessarily a "secret agenda" it is a poppycock scheme cooked up in the halls of power.

[rock on sooner]

Faniama and Kanto, really good exchange, thanks...

[FaninAma]

Rock on, appreciate the comment. I guess after the events of today it is starting to look more and more like our entire Middle East policy is one big Cluster F. When the elite are arrogant and do not think they have to share with the electorate the reasons for their foreign and domestic policy or account to us for the errors in decisions then we get results like this.

What if we had never become involved in the Middle East and instead invested the money we have poured down that rat hole to develop energy technolgy and our own sources of new renewable energy? We might be in a better position and a lot of our young men and women who have lost their lives in that backwards region might still be alive.

The question I always ask myself is do I trust the elite making the decisions on foreign policy enough to trust them with the lives of my one son and two daughters and my answer is a resounding "Hell no!" Not without a whole lot more information on why we got involved over there in the first place because in my opinion if you start a course of action based on a huge error in judgement it is foolish to continue down the path started by the initial error in judgement. In fact it is the height of arrogance and stupidity to continue blindly following orders in this situation.

[KantoSooner]

Or you can look at it from the perspective of:

Do we really have the freedom to NOT be involved? I think the answer you come up with, at the end of the day, is 'No, no we don't'.

So, then the question becomes, 'When, where and in what way?'.

We can argue those three all day long. I don't think the first question is arguable in the least by anyone seriously engaged in studying foreign affairs.

[FaninAma]

Kanto, you know I would have a bit more faith in our leadership if just once they would show that they had the intelligence to retrospectively evaluate established foreign and domestic policy and admit to those areas where it is not working and try something differently.

Trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives spent on trying to FORCE the Muslim culture into the 21st century and look where we are. Our ambassador dead in Libya, our embassy under attack in Cairo and Iraq rapidly deteriorating into sectarian violence. Hell, I would have settled for them being brought into the early 20th century. But I bet you we can expect more of the same failed policy of interventionism and waste of lives and money.

Trillions of dollars spent on entitlements trying to end poverty and increase the size of the middle class and look where we are. The number of single mothers skyrocketing. The percent living in poverty the same as when most of the entitlement programs were put in place. And a 16 trillion dollar debt we get to give to our kids and grandkids. But I bet you we can expect more of the same type throw-money-at-the-problem policies.

We are not learning from our mistakes....or at least the elite aren't which begs the question of "Why?". Are they stupid or are they doing this by design? I will let you guess which reason I believe and will illustrate my opinion with another summation from the link about the "Power Elite":

Chapter 15: The Higher Immorality

Especially following the second half of the 1900s, the US power elite has been getting increasingly immoral, irresponsible, ignorant, stupid (in terms of not valuing reason as one's key characteristic in life), and mindless in its quest for wealth and power.
The higher immorality is a systematic, institutionalized feature of the US power elite, and the general acceptance of this immorality is an essential feature of the mass society.
The mass society itself is also left without any moral standards to hold on to, or even rise against. While fear, uncertainty, and doubt is spread through military and economic crisis, “as individuals they are defenseless; as groups, they are politically indifferent.” Even though most relate (and wrongfully so) power with knowledge and ability, some have given in to the immorality embodied in accomplishment.

[soonercruiser]

Or you can look at it from the perspective of:

Do we really have the freedom to NOT be involved? I think the answer you come up with, at the end of the day, is 'No, no we don't'.

So, then the question becomes, 'When, where and in what way?'.

We can argue those three all day long. I don't think the first question is arguable in the least by anyone seriously engaged in studying foreign affairs.

I didn't have the time to read back through all the posts....but, this is a good synopsis of the situation in the ME.

[diverdog]

Rock on, appreciate the comment. I guess after the events of today it is starting to look more and more like our entire Middle East policy is one big Cluster F. When the elite are arrogant and do not think they have to share with the electorate the reasons for their foreign and domestic policy or account to us for the errors in decisions then we get results like this.

What if we had never become involved in the Middle East and instead invested the money we have poured down that rat hole to develop energy technolgy and our own sources of new renewable energy? We might be in a better position and a lot of our young men and women who have lost their lives in that backwards region might still be alive.

The question I always ask myself is do I trust the elite making the decisions on foreign policy enough to trust them with the lives of my one son and two daughters and my answer is a resounding "Hell no!" Not without a whole lot more information on why we got involved over there in the first place because in my opinion if you start a course of action based on a huge error in judgement it is foolish to continue down the path started by the initial error in judgement. In fact it is the height of arrogance and stupidity to continue blindly following orders in this situation.

We have been double dealing in the ME for far too longer. The sooner we leave the better off we will be. We have spent about two trillion dollars trying to buy peace in that part of the world and they hate us more than ever.

[soonercruiser]

Can we offer all of Israel to move to California, and send California to......?
:distant:

[StoopTroup]

Secrecy and the 'we don't know what we don't know' factor for our enemies are critical tools for espionage and special operations. When one enters that service, there are legal burdens that you continue to carry long after you leave, some of them last through the end of your life. More importantly, there are obligations of secrecy you owe to your fellows and to those who follow after you in the service.

The clown who wrote this book violated both, in my view. Sue his ***, jail him and, to his fellow SEALS, shun him forever.

He might just as well have taken a consulting job with Iran's Quds Force.

I agree Kanto. I know that there are plenty of little things that can be argued like Freedom of Speech and Civil Rights but everyone that becomes a SEAL has to understand that when they leave the service, they signed away certain rights about the things they were involved in when in the service.

[StoopTroup]

Ummmm...okay...

LOL. You have to just start laughing at it all.

[diverdog]

Can we offer all of Israel to move to California, and send California to......?
:distant:

California is the 8th largest economy in the world. Israel is the 17 th largest. Not a good trade.

[soonercruiser]

How about their debt????

(of course you took me seriously....where the heck is that sarcasm emoticon? I need an emoticon....No! Not constipated, either!)