DNC...wow..

[Soonerjeepman]

when is America going to wake up...I'm so tired of "phobic" attitude. The radical muslims HAVE an agenda and are spreading it as fast as they can. Congrats to all you dems, hopefully you will realize this is some serious $hit. Sure the usual it's all propaganda bs by the Pub will come my way...I PRAY you are right.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dnc-announces-2-hour-islamic-jumah-prayers-after-rejecting-cardinals-blessing-and-you-wont-believe-whos-invited/#

[Skysooner]

when is America going to wake up...I'm so tired of "phobic" attitude. The radical muslims HAVE an agenda and are spreading it as fast as they can. Congrats to all you dems, hopefully you will realize this is some serious $hit. Sure the usual it's all propaganda bs by the Pub will come my way...I PRAY you are right.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dnc-announces-2-hour-islamic-jumah-prayers-after-rejecting-cardinals-blessing-and-you-wont-believe-whos-invited/#

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=1657576

This says that a Catholic has been invited but not that particular Catholic due to his pro-life stance. It isn't like you couldn't tell bias by the tone of that article. There are always two sides and when the writing is so slanted (either way) I'm suspicious. This took me 5 seconds to find btw. This is also why I'm tired of you guys rushing on here with outrage for every little effing thing that you get your panties in a wad about. Your RNC has a pro-life stance that is so extreme it is ridiculous. Do you really expect the DNC to have this same cardinal (Timothy Dolan) speak when he is a pro-lifer?

[Soonerjeepman]

no I don't (your last question) but I'm also tired of the "acceptance" of everyone's BS ideas...bottom line is the dem push this acceptance on every issue. Yes I do get "my panties in a wad" when radical muslims with an AGENDA are being invited to governmental conventions. I would say the dem should have NO prayer service....that's what they are all about. I've read some of your post, you seem pretty middle of the road...great, but if you don't believe there are radical muslims in the USA p[promoting their agenda by shoving the "acceptance" philosophy down our throats you are mistaken. They thrive on our ignorance and our willingness to back down due to the "phobic" crap being thrown out there.

Just my 2 cents worth.

BTW..being Catholic I would expect every Cardinal/Bishop to be pro-life

[Soonerjeepman]

I apologize...I did read your link..I need to investigate more.

[Ton Loc]

no I don't (your last question) but I'm also tired of the "acceptance" of everyone's BS ideas...bottom line is the dem push this acceptance on every issue. Yes I do get "my panties in a wad" when radical muslims with an AGENDA are being invited to governmental conventions. I would say the dem should have NO prayer service....that's what they are all about. I've read some of your post, you seem pretty middle of the road...great, but if you don't believe there are radical muslims in the USA p[promoting their agenda by shoving the "acceptance" philosophy down our throats you are mistaken. They thrive on our ignorance and our willingness to back down due to the "phobic" crap being thrown out there.

Just my 2 cents worth.

BTW..being Catholic I would expect every Cardinal/Bishop to be pro-life

It must suck to get old and paranoid. Your only friend is AM talk radio and extremely slanted websites that fit your very marginalized view of the world.

Really though, I think you're kidding. I hope...

[badger]

for what it's worth...

the fact that 60% or more of this country (dems, pubs, indys) are Christian and the dem choose an islamic prayer service...really? THAT is scary, as I said I would figure the dem would have no prayer service at all.

I was kind of surprised that they would show their "inclusion" this way. You know what I mean - "We're the party for everybody! All are welcome, all are equal and all will be served by the all-inclusive Democratic Party!"

The Republicans did this in a much wiser way in 2000 - they had a black gospel choir sing at the RNC, and showed off other diversity. I think JC Watts was among featured speakers, along with Condi Rice, Colin Powell, etc.

You can show how inclusive you are without including religion. They are very brave. Or very foolish.

[marfacowboy]

I don't care for Islam, mostly because I think it's misogynist. Then again, I don't care for any traditional religions, particularly monotheistic ones. My views tend to align more with Taoism.
I've seen fundamentalist Christians use the same sort of language about the country. How America will fail or "fall" without God, etc. There's the same sort of push by fundies to dominate the cultural and political landscape with their version of religion. It's very dangerous, be it Islamist or Christian.
At the least the Jews aren't out knocking on your door.

[diverdog]

I apologize...I did read your link..I need to investigate more.

Get your facts straight. Dolan is saying a prayer at the real DNC. This event is taking place in a park in Charlotte. Keep reading that bat **** crazy propaganda from Glenn Beck and your hair will turn to tin foil.

[Soonerjeepman]

It must suck to get old and paranoid. Your only friend is AM talk radio and extremely slanted websites that fit your very marginalized view of the world.

Really though, I think you're kidding. I hope...

lol...you're a funny guy. Because I stand up for what I believe you think I'm old and paranoid...whatever bud. I can assure you my life is fun and full. It's so interesting the libs come back with this anytime someone has an opposing view, but isn't it the libs view that everyone has a right to their opinions and beliefs? even us "old and paranoid folks"! Have a great day!

[Soonerjeepman]

Dog, I have no prob admitting I was wrong, I usually investigate most of this stuff. I do believe the obama admin is very friendly with the wrong people...including the radical muslims.

[okie52]

Get your facts straight. Dolan is saying a prayer at the real DNC. This event is taking place in a park in Charlotte. Keep reading that bat **** crazy propaganda from Glenn Beck and your hair will turn to tin foil.

Now DD, you're getting your blue panties all in a wad.


Prayers
The Democratic National Committee is choosing to proceed with hosting Islamic “Jumah” prayers for two hours on the Friday of its convention.[40] President Obama initially declined the opportunity for Timothy Cardinal Dolan to deliver a prayer at the Democratic National Convention.[41] However Dolan has accepted an invitation and is slated to deliver the closing prayer.[42]

But more importantly to Okies:


Disqualified delegates
Randall Terry received a large enough percentage of votes in the Oklahoma Primary to receive as many as seven delegates. However, the DNC has declared him as "illegitimate"[34] and may not permit his delegates to attend, as happened with Lyndon LaRouche's delegates in 1996.[35] Keith Russell Judd and John Wolfe, Jr., who have also both qualified for delegates to the convention by virtue of their performances in West Virginia (in Judd's case), Arkansas and Louisiana (in Wolfe's), face similar obstacles to having their delegates seated.[36][37][38] Wolfe has commenced legal proceedings to have delegates in his name seated.[39]

Where is the big tent?

[Soonerjeepman]

so they ARE hosting? Where did you get that?

thanks

[okie52]

so they ARE hosting? Where did you get that?

thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Democratic_National_Convention

[Skysooner]

Dog, I have no prob admitting I was wrong, I usually investigate most of this stuff. I do believe the obama admin is very friendly with the wrong people...including the radical muslims.

If this had been true (and it may still be at least partially although I doubt it), I would be mad too. I'm all for religious freedom and treating all religions equally.

Edit: Interesting on that wiki Okie52. Looks like Dolan will speak now. I bet it was all pro-life issues, but who truly knows. Stupid things are done all the time for what people perceive to be the right reasons. Still if they went for a whole Muslim thing without acknowledging Christianity and Judaism it would be wrong.

[Soonerjeepman]

Sky...read the link Okie gave...hmmm, interesting. Of course Wiki can be wrong as well. Not throwin it in your face, just very concerned if this is true.

[Soonerjeepman]

Hey Dog, ya might look as well.

[TitoMorelli]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Democratic_National_Convention

According to Wiki,



The Democratic National Committee is choosing to proceed with hosting Islamic “Jumah” prayers for two hours on the Friday of its convention.[40] President Obama initially declined the opportunity for Timothy Cardinal Dolan to deliver a prayer at the Democratic National Convention.[41] However Dolan has accepted an invitation and is slated to deliver the closing prayer.

[Soonerjeepman]

I actually don't have a problem declining Dolan, based on his pro life stance. I do have a problem with promoting islam. I figured the dem need NO prayer...just my opinion.

[Skysooner]

I actually don't have a problem declining Dolan, based on his pro life stance. I do have a problem with promoting islam. I figured the dem need NO prayer...just my opinion.

I did. Edited my original post, and I'm with you. Don't promote any religion instead of one religion over the others.

[okie52]

If this had been true (and it may still be at least partially although I doubt it), I would be mad too. I'm all for religious freedom and treating all religions equally.

Edit: Interesting on that wiki Okie52. Looks like Dolan will speak now. I bet it was all pro-life issues, but who truly knows. Stupid things are done all the time for what people perceive to be the right reasons. Still if they went for a whole Muslim thing without acknowledging Christianity and Judaism it would be wrong.

Yeah Obama initially declined having him and then moved him to the closing ceremonies...probably because it would appease the catholics while at the same time be in a less viewed slot.

[okie52]

And yet Randall Terry (among others) being blackballed as a delegate goes under the radar.

[Soonerjeepman]

Hey Okie, ya think they want Randall Terry there? lol I don't...after his run in in Wichita with Tiller. (Guess I'm assuming it's the same RT..prolifer) Not sure how all that works, but if he is elected isn't it his right to go? Don't see how the convention can deny the peoples choice. Like I said I don't know all the ins/outs of the system.

[Midtowner]

lol...you're a funny guy. Because I stand up for what I believe you think I'm old and paranoid...whatever bud. I can assure you my life is fun and full. It's so interesting the libs come back with this anytime someone has an opposing view, but isn't it the libs view that everyone has a right to their opinions and beliefs? even us "old and paranoid folks"! Have a great day!

You have a right to believe whatever you want about anything.

That doesn't affect my right to ridicule you.

[okie52]

Hey Okie, ya think they want Randall Terry there? lol I don't...after his run in in Wichita with Tiller. (Guess I'm assuming it's the same RT..prolifer) Not sure how all that works, but if he is elected isn't it his right to go? Don't see how the convention can deny the peoples choice. Like I said I don't know all the ins/outs of the system.

He had enough votes to have delegates but mysteriously he has been banned as have some others ( Keith Russell Judd and John Wolfe, Jr.). The big tent is showing some barriers.

[okie52]

You have a right to believe whatever you want about anything.

That doesn't affect my right to ridicule you.

Heh, aren't you a Jill Stein supporter?

[Skysooner]

He had enough votes to have delegates but mysteriously he has been banned as have some others ( Keith Russell Judd and John Wolfe, Jr.). The big tent is showing some barriers.

Supposedly there are similar issues going on at the RNC. Heard it on the POTUS XM channel coming in today, but it wasn't entirely clear. I think it was directed at Ron Paul supporters.

[okie52]

Supposedly there are similar issues going on at the RNC. Heard it on the POTUS XM channel coming in today, but it wasn't entirely clear. I think it was directed at Ron Paul supporters.


Oh I'm sure the RNC will control who is speaking/present/protesting etc... but they've always been known for that. The dems are supposed to be the big tent, all inclusive, etc... so I get a chuckle when they don't live up to it.

[FaninAma]

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=1657576

This says that a Catholic has been invited but not that particular Catholic due to his pro-life stance. It isn't like you couldn't tell bias by the tone of that article. There are always two sides and when the writing is so slanted (either way) I'm suspicious. This took me 5 seconds to find btw. This is also why I'm tired of you guys rushing on here with outrage for every little effing thing that you get your panties in a wad about. Your RNC has a pro-life stance that is so extreme it is ridiculous. Do you really expect the DNC to have this same cardinal (Timothy Dolan) speak when he is a pro-lifer?

So, where did the DNC dig up a "Catholic" that isn't staunchly pro-life? And what is this person's affiliation with the Catholic Church?

[Skysooner]

So, where did the DNC dig up a "Catholic" that isn't staunchly pro-life? And what is this person's affiliation with the Catholic Church?

Apparently they didn't. They are going with Doolan. I can't claim to know anything about the Catholic religion although many supported Obama the last time. I know the official church stance is anti birth control and pro-life, but I'm sure there are plenty of rank and file members that are the other (particularly BC).

Here is something on the RNC delegate fight.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/texas-delegates-planning-floor-mutiny-over-rnc-rules-225837647.html

[TitoMorelli]

Apparently they didn't. They are going with Doolan. I can't claim to know anything about the Catholic religion although many supported Obama the last time. I know the official church stance is anti birth control and pro-life, but I'm sure there are plenty of rank and file members that are the other (particularly BC).

Here is something on the RNC delegate fight.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/texas-delegates-planning-floor-mutiny-over-rnc-rules-225837647.html

article linked: Texas delegates planning floor mutiny over RNC rules changes

And if Dan Beebe were the RNC chairman, Texas undoubtedly would get its way.



As for Dolan, I'm pretty sure he's pro-life. His apparent reason for accepting the belated invitation to offer the DNC closing prayer is that he wants to avoid being labeled as politically partisan.

[Midtowner]

Heh, aren't you a Jill Stein supporter?

I really like Jill Stein. I agree with her on some stuff, on other stuff, no. I think I'd take her over Romney or Obama. I'd also vote for Ron Paul over Romney or Obama.

[Soonerjeepman]

You have a right to believe whatever you want about anything.

That doesn't affect my right to ridicule you.

nice and mature...lol

[okie52]

I really like Jill Stein. I agree with her on some stuff, on other stuff, no. I think I'd take her over Romney or Obama. I'd also vote for Ron Paul over Romney or Obama.

I'd take RP over Romney or Obama too..heh heh. but Jill Stein puts you on the fringe.

[Soonerjeepman]

Sky, yes, unfortunately (in my opinion) the American Catholic Church is a little off of the Roman Catholic Church. So yes there are "Catholics" who are pro abortion, gay rights, etc..look at Sebalis (sp?). If I remember correctly a Bishop refused her communion after her political issues, or something along that lines. I guess I'm of the thinking if ya don't believe in the doctrine then don't be Catholic.

Like Okie said, the Pubs have traditionally had no issues saying no to certain things where as the Dems always preach openness and acceptance of others unless it goes against their agenda. I find that a bit contradictory.

[Skysooner]

Sky, yes, unfortunately (in my opinion) the American Catholic Church is a little off of the Roman Catholic Church. So yes there are "Catholics" who are pro abortion, gay rights, etc..look at Sebalis (sp?). If I remember correctly a Bishop refused her communion after her political issues, or something along that lines. I guess I'm of the thinking if ya don't believe in the doctrine then don't be Catholic.

Like Okie said, the Pubs have traditionally had no issues saying no to certain things where as the Dems always preach openness and acceptance of others unless it goes against their agenda. I find that a bit contradictory.
That's why I wish there was a 3rd party. I'm really only Democratic in pro-choice (but adoption first and foremost) and acceptance of others. Beyond that I'm pretty inline with the 'Pub agenda except I think we are going to make some hard choices on taxes/cuts to preferred programs.

Religion is just so strange. We have faith in an entity that has policies that go against our belief systems like that Bishop you were talking about. It causes people to do strange things but also some very wonderful things. I was religious most of my life (at least somewhat) until about 7 years ago. I have been much happier without it.

[Soonerjeepman]

LOL...I agree on the 3rd party...I'm sick of both just spewing out their BS to get voters. This campaign is just negative crap, TELL ME WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO, not what the other is doing wrong.
Term limits, no big payroll, no big retirement, no CAREER politicians.

I'd probably be very happy...no guilt but I'd feel guilty about that! ;-)

[marfacowboy]

I really like Jill Stein. I agree with her on some stuff, on other stuff, no. I think I'd take her over Romney or Obama. I'd also vote for Ron Paul over Romney or Obama.

I definitely like her "Green New Deal" approach and agree with you. I've been talking and writing about a similar program since 2008.

[okie52]

Jill Stein:


We can't wait 4 more years to address climate change. (Jan 2012)
National ban on fracking; natural gas is not clean. (Jan 2012)
No evidence that carbon sequestration solves climate crisis. (Jan 2012)
Let states prevent nuclear power plants. (Jan 2012)
World War II-scale mobilization to reduce carbon burden. (Jan 2012)
Renewable energy is win-win for economy & national security. (Dec 2011)
Nuclear energy is dirty, dangerous and expensive. (Dec 2011)
Logging wood for electricity is neither clean nor green. (Sep 2010)


Positions
Along the lines of President Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal solution to the Great Depression, Jill Stein advocates a "Green New Deal"[34] in which renewable energy jobs would be created to address climate change and environmental issues with the objective of employing "every American willing and able to work".[34] Citing the research of Dr. Phillip Harvey, Professor of Law & Economics at Rutgers University, as evidence of the successful economic effects of the 1930s' New Deal projects, Stein would fund the plan with a 30% reduction in the U.S. military budget, returning US troops home, and increasing taxes on areas such as capital gains, offshore tax havens and multimillion dollar real estate. Stein plans on impacting what she sees as a growing convergence of environmental crises in water, soil, fisheries and forests, through the creation of sustainable infrastructure based in clean renewable energy generation and sustainable communities principles such as increasing intra-city mass transit and inter-city railroads, creating 'complete streets' that safely encourage bike and pedestrian traffic and regional food systems based on sustainable organic agriculture.[34]


Provide a legal path to citizenship for immigrant residents. (Feb 2012)
End the war on immigrants; end "secure communities" cruelty. (Jan 2012)
Undocumented immigrants are critical component of economy. (Dec 2011)
No pathway to citizenship for criminals; open to all others. (Dec 2011)

Hmmmm...yeah, she's really got it together.

[diverdog]

He had enough votes to have delegates but mysteriously he has been banned as have some others ( Keith Russell Judd and John Wolfe, Jr.). The big tent is showing some barriers.

Yeah like the Republican Party is a big tent. Ask Ron Paul what happened with his delegates.

[pphilfran]

Jill is far down my list....

[marfacowboy]

I don't understand what's so "bad" with renewable energy. Why are people so against it? What's so bad about a clean environment, peace, equality, etc.? I just don't get it.
You can have all of these things as well as security and a strong economic system. They're not mutually exclusive.

[pphilfran]

Because it is ungodly expensive...

They have nothing to do with limiting crude usage....

At some time in the future they will be viable (solar in particular) and ng is a great bridge fuel until that time comes...

But we want everything today and fail to realize the time frames that are within reason....

[diverdog]

Because it is ungodly expensive...

They have nothing to do with limiting crude usage....

At some time in the future they will be viable (solar in particular) and ng is a great bridge fuel until that time comes...

But we want everything today and fail to realize the time frames that are within reason....

If you add in defense, mid east, pollution and dead soldiers oil is pretty damn expensive.

[pphilfran]

DD...we could cover the US in solar cells and wind turbines and it will not save a drop of crude...they will reduce coal usage but in reality they are strictly for CO2 reduction...

[marfacowboy]

Because it is ungodly expensive...

They have nothing to do with limiting crude usage....

At some time in the future they will be viable (solar in particular) and ng is a great bridge fuel until that time comes...

But we want everything today and fail to realize the time frames that are within reason....

I'm not in favor of technologies like hydrogen fuel cell technology. Some technologies are a net energy sink, meaning, it takes more energy (and sometimes money) to produce it than the energy you derive.
A smart energy policy, however, is one that supports multiple technologies and a strong conservation effort.

[SoonerorLater]

If you add in defense, mid east, pollution and dead soldiers oil is pretty damn expensive.

Without petroleum the world as we now know it ceases to exist. Nothing gives a bang for the buck like fossil fuel. According to the book by John Howe "The End of Fossil Energy" one gallon of gasoline is equal to 600 man hours. No renewable source comes close to the output for the price.

[pphilfran]

Marfa...That is fine...just realize the time frames required...also that solar and wind do not necessarily produce energy at the time it is needed...you can store the energy from those sources but now you are talking about expensive and potentially damaging battery components...pumped energy takes huge amounts of water to run for any extended length of time....once we hit something like 20% of energy production from solar and wind we will be at their peak...

We need something to bridge us over for the next 10 or 20 years until those industries can actually stand on their own...I fully support funding to improve the technology and the R&D required...but to throw money at those energy sources when we are so fiscally poor is stupid at best...

[diverdog]

DD...we could cover the US in solar cells and wind turbines and it will not save a drop of crude...they will reduce coal usage but in reality they are strictly for CO2 reduction...

There are a lot of other things we can do on the conservation front and smarter designs of communities. If anything the last big run up in oil prices proved that conservation works.

[diverdog]

Without petroleum the world as we now know it ceases to exist. Nothing gives a bang for the buck like fossil fuel. According to the book by John Howe "The End of Fossil Energy" one gallon of gasoline is equal to 600 man hours. No renewable source comes close to the output for the price.


Nuclear power.

We need oil but we do not need to waste as much as we do.

[pphilfran]

I agree...but do not change the subject...you were talking solar and wind reducing crude consumption and its impact on the war machine and dead soldiers...

Will it?

How many decades to see an impact from social engineering and community design?

NG is available today and can reduce our crude usage and bring us much closer to energy independence...it has a much lower impact on emissions...would produce many new jobs...and will bridge us until other technology and social engineers has grown to a size that it actually impacts our overall way of life...

It is sad that we think massive changes can take place tomorrow and that unwise way of thinking causes us to ignore the many positives that we can have by using ng as a transition fuel...

[pphilfran]

Nuclear power.

We need oil but we do not need to waste as much as we do.

nukes will not save one drop of oil

[pphilfran]

About one half of one percent of our electricity comes from crude or coke...those plants are old, inefficient and costly...and will be shut down due to the much lower cost of ng...

In fact, electricity from coal has declined significantly over the past few years...not because of any fed regulation...not because of cap and trade....not because of any green initiative...

Low cost ng...but you want to flip the bird to the one thing that can make a great impact on high paying jobs... money flowing out of the country...the war machine and our need to defend the ME...lower emissions ...all from a technology and fuel that is available today with no subsidy or government impact needed...

I am disappointed...

[okie52]

Yeah like the Republican Party is a big tent. Ask Ron Paul what happened with his delegates.

But DD I didn't say they were...it's the dems that have tried to project the " big tent" illusion.

[okie52]

If you add in defense, mid east, pollution and dead soldiers oil is pretty damn expensive.

Then remove the middle east from the equation by being energy independent...but you're going to vote for someone that will make sure we will have to rely on ME oil.

[pphilfran]

okie...don't waste your breath...the party of science cannot fathom simple math...

[okie52]

I don't understand what's so "bad" with renewable energy. Why are people so against it? What's so bad about a clean environment, peace, equality, etc.? I just don't get it.
You can have all of these things as well as security and a strong economic system. They're not mutually exclusive.

Nothing wrong with renewable energy at all...I'm all for it when it is a viable alternative. What is "wrong" are policies that mandate alternative fuels when they are either not economically viable nor in sufficient supply to meet our energy needs as what Stein and Obama have supported.

[okie52]

okie...don't waste your breath...the party of science cannot fathom simple math...

Heh heh

The party of science....

[diverdog]

nukes will not save one drop of oil

Don't tell that to the navy. I would kill to have cheap nuclear power so I can get rid of my home heating oil!

[okie52]

Don't tell that to the navy. I would kill to have cheap nuclear power so I can get rid of my home heating oil!

I agree...so what's the holdup?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

no I don't (your last question) but I'm also tired of the "acceptance" of everyone's BS ideas...bottom line is the dem push this acceptance on every issue. Yes I do get "my panties in a wad" when radical muslims with an AGENDA are being invited to governmental conventions. I would say the dem should have NO prayer service....that's what they are all about. I've read some of your post, you seem pretty middle of the road...great, but if you don't believe there are radical muslims in the USA p[promoting their agenda by shoving the "acceptance" philosophy down our throats you are mistaken. They thrive on our ignorance and our willingness to back down due to the "phobic" crap being thrown out there.

Just my 2 cents worth.

BTW..being Catholic I would expect every Cardinal/Bishop to be pro-life
Do Catholics not have a political agenda?

[okie52]

About one half of one percent of our electricity comes from crude or coke...those plants are old, inefficient and costly...and will be shut down due to the much lower cost of ng...

In fact, electricity from coal has declined significantly over the past few years...not because of any fed regulation...not because of cap and trade....not because of any green initiative...

Low cost ng...but you want to flip the bird to the one thing that can make a great impact on high paying jobs... money flowing out of the country...the war machine and our need to defend the ME...lower emissions ...all from a technology and fuel that is available today with no subsidy or government impact needed...

I am disappointed...

And CO2 decreased by 20% in 3 1/2 years because of ng...much greater than what cap and trade called for.

Hey, but Obama said in his State of the Union address that he was NOW an NG guy....can't you tell?

[East Coast Bias]

Crude oil, etc is all yesterday's news. NG is the future? I respect Phil and Okie's knowledge is the field but we have to keep working to develop other energy sources. We can't keep drilling holes in the earth forever? This whole issue reminds me of the Indians and their relationship to the buffulo.At one time the herds covered the horizon. So many companies and people have made obscene money in the oil business and they still cling hard to this. I am not an expert on the oil market but have read that without subsidies gasoline would be about $10 a gallon. Could that be true? And I know a lot of you Okies are living on oil but like Marfa said: Whats so bad about "renewable"? If the concern is the time table, maybe paying the true market price for gas would change a few minds?

[okie52]

Fine about oil being yesterday's news but until there is a viable replacement it is still today's reality.

Where I think so many miss the point is many of us (even oilies) are fine with alternative fuels replacing oil and even ng in the future but to demand an end to its use and mandate
A non existent energy source to replace it is not only living in a fantasy world but is
Economic Suicide for this country.

Show a viable alternative energy source and an honest, logical plan for moving the country to using it and I'll be all ears...so far what have we seen...Solyndra? Millions of green energy jobs? Electric cars like the volt?

[okie52]

Crude oil, etc is all yesterday's news. NG is the future? I respect Phil and Okie's knowledge is the field but we have to keep working to develop other energy sources. We can't keep drilling holes in the earth forever? This whole issue reminds me of the Indians and their relationship to the buffulo.At one time the herds covered the horizon. So many companies and people have made obscene money in the oil business and they still cling hard to this. I am not an expert on the oil market but have read that without subsidies gasoline would be about $10 a gallon. Could that be true? And I know a lot of you Okies are living on oil but like Marfa said: Whats so bad about "renewable"? If the concern is the time table, maybe paying the true market price for gas would change a few minds?

Sorry but I missed your subsidies comment....oil isn't close to $10 a gallon without subsidies. Someone gave you some very bad information. Oil companies get the same tax write offs as other manufacturers.

Now some have made a point that the real cost of gasoline is $13 a gallon when you take into account all of our defense costs, wars, etc...protecting our oil supplies in the ME. That may be true and that is why energy independence is so important to America which we have the ability to do right now with our own oil and ng...but people like Jill stein and Obama will not allow that to happen.

[cleller]

I'll take one gas well over dozens of windmills or thousands of solar cell banks any day.

The gas that comes out of that well can produce energy that is pretty clean, and is very affordable, which is not the case for renewables at this time. The gas is likely plentiful enough to provide our energy needs while progress is made toward making renewables a viable option.

So, is the DNC catering to Muslims or not?

[okie52]

Don't know....wiki (or someone) removed today the "prayers" subsection from the controversy section.

[pphilfran]

Don't tell that to the navy. I would kill to have cheap nuclear power so I can get rid of my home heating oil!

You do make a point about home heating oil...you could switch to ng and go from $27 per million btu with oil to 12.35 with ng... http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=3450

8% of total US distillate fuel is used for heating...mostly in the NE... http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/nehfuel/#dfoc

Distillate fuel oil is just under 20% of total crude usage http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_wpsup_k_w.htm

So 1.6% of crude is used for home heating in the US....

Another case of ng being cheaper and more environmentally friendly than crude...and the switch could be made today and not wait decades and spend billions waiting on a nuke plant to be built... (sorry okie)

for those that do not know...I am not an oily...never been in the business...nearly bought a wind turbine cleaning business a few years back..15k to clean on turbine and you could complete the cleaning in two days, weather permitting...they tend to leak oil like a sieve...in fact DD and I talked on the phone about he business...lack of regs from state to state and the thought of keeping a mile of cable in perfect condition chased me off... this was one of the platforms I looked at buying...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/001-4.jpg

[East Coast Bias]

You do make a point about home heating oil...you could switch to ng and go from $27 per million btu with oil to 12.35 with ng... http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=3450

8% of total US distillate fuel is used for heating...mostly in the NE... http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/nehfuel/#dfoc

Distillate fuel oil is just under 20% of total crude usage http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_wpsup_k_w.htm



So 1.6% of crude is used for home heating in the US....

Another case of ng being cheaper and more environmentally friendly than crude...and the switch could be made today and not wait decades and spend billions waiting on a nuke plant to be built... (sorry okie)

for those that do not know...I am not an oily...never been in the business...nearly bought a wind turbine cleaning business a few years back..15k to clean on turbine and you could complete the cleaning in two days, weather permitting...they tend to leak oil like a sieve...in fact DD and I talked on the phone about he business...lack of regs from state to state and the thought of keeping a mile of cable in perfect condition chased me off... this was one of the platforms I looked at buying...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/001-4.jpg

You sure seem like an oily? Just kidding man, I appreciate your insights. I think you are on-target with NG for the northeast.I use home heating oil like everyone else up here and the cost is crazy! The problem is that there is no distribution network in place to give us the option. I use about 1ooo gallons of heating oil in my small house to get through a New Hampshire winter and the price goes up in the winter just like your electricity cost goes up in the summer. The advantage to living here is that air-conditioning is not needed. I don't even have an AC unit in my house as it rarely gets over 92 here......

[cleller]

You sure seem like an oily? Just kidding man, I appreciate your insights. I think you are on-target with NG for the northeast.I use home heating oil like everyone else up here and the cost is crazy! The problem is that there is no distribution network in place to give us the option. I use about 1ooo gallons of heating oil in my small house to get through a New Hampshire winter and the price goes up in the winter just like your electricity cost goes up in the summer. The advantage to living here is that air-conditioning is not needed. I don't even have an AC unit in my house as it rarely gets over 92 here......

What this makes me think is that when you get right down to it, Americans might be better served with more investments in NG right now than solar and wind.
Even if the NG delivery systems could not be set up, possible propane would be cheaper? At least more NG electricity could replace coal.

[olevetonahill]

You sure seem like an oily? Just kidding man, I appreciate your insights. I think you are on-target with NG for the northeast.I use home heating oil like everyone else up here and the cost is crazy! The problem is that there is no distribution network in place to give us the option. I use about 1ooo gallons of heating oil in my small house to get through a New Hampshire winter and the price goes up in the winter just like your electricity cost goes up in the summer. The advantage to living here is that air-conditioning is not needed. I don't even have an AC unit in my house as it rarely gets over 92 here......

Have any of Yall considered a Pellet stove?
Ive had mine 4 years and its paid for itself in what Ive saved on Propane

[cleller]

Have any of Yall considered a Pellet stove?
Ive had mine 4 years and its paid for itself in what Ive saved on Propane

How much do you guess you spend a month on pellets? Never seen one of those. We have a woodstove, and I cut all the wood, so thats a good deal. If you were buying firewood, it would be a different story, but still nice to have.
I cut wood just a little at a time, so its no big deal, but can't imagine how people cut, sell, haul and stack wood for $75-80/rick, or whatever it is now. Too much work.

[olevetonahill]

Depends on how cold it gets
The 1st year I had it I bot a ton of pellets which is 50 bags for 250 bucks I used 23 of em that winter. the following winter I used the remaining 27 and could have used a few more if I had em
the next year I bot another ton, winter was mild last 2 years so I stil have over 1/2 of em

so in 4 winters Ive used maybe 65 er 70 bags at 5 bucks each

I bot mine off Ebay . have right at 1200 bucks in it with what I spent on installin it an all

[pphilfran]

You sure seem like an oily? Just kidding man, I appreciate your insights. I think you are on-target with NG for the northeast.I use home heating oil like everyone else up here and the cost is crazy! The problem is that there is no distribution network in place to give us the option. I use about 1ooo gallons of heating oil in my small house to get through a New Hampshire winter and the price goes up in the winter just like your electricity cost goes up in the summer. The advantage to living here is that air-conditioning is not needed. I don't even have an AC unit in my house as it rarely gets over 92 here......

There has to be a distribution network unless you live in the country....people own gas cooking stoves don't they?

The only reason I seem like an oily is because the numbers that I look at support my stance...if the numbers were terrible I would not support the industry to the extent that I do now...

It absolutely astounds me that people ignore the info that I post.. all data that I post comes from the most reputable sources..EIA, the one that I use the most, is a fed entity and fully funded by the our DC leadership...if Congress wants info on energy they request that info and/or report from EIA...

As I have said before, and will continue to say, is that wind and solar will not do diddly squat to help us become energy independent...

If anyone, and I mean anyone, wants to dispute that fact, then present your data and your source..not what you think or what your gut says...legit sources and data to support your stance....

[East Coast Bias]

There has to be a distribution network unless you live in the country....people own gas cooking stoves don't they?

The only reason I seem like an oily is because the numbers that I look at support my stance...if the numbers were terrible I would not support the industry to the extent that I do now...


It absolutely astounds me that people ignore the info that I post.. all data that I post comes from the most reputable sources..EIA, the one that I use the most, is a fed entity and fully funded by the our DC leadership...if Congress wants info on energy they request that info and/or report from EIA...

As I have said before, and will continue to say, is that wind and solar will not do diddly squat to help us become energy independent...

If anyone, and I mean anyone, wants to dispute that fact, then present your data and your source..not what you think or what your gut says...legit sources and data to support your stance....

There are not a lot of gas cooking stoves used in New Hampshire. Some of the newer construction areas have NG, but not the older areas. BTW when you mention old homes in Okla, that is 1950's, right? Up here many of the homes in my neighborhood were built in the 16 and 1700's. I am thinking heating oil is 95% what is used here, there is a lot of propane used, but I don't think it is any cheaper. OVet is probably right (can't believe I actually said that) a pellet stove would save money. I would probably use in a week what he uses in a Winter....

[pphilfran]

EIA stated about the same...lots of oil burners...sooner or later people will convert...and electricity is not going to be cheap..

Sounds to me like you are screwed.... lol

[Ton Loc]

It absolutely astounds me that people ignore the info that I post..

If anyone, and I mean anyone, wants to dispute that fact, then present your data and your source..not what you think or what your gut says...legit sources and data to support your stance....

You can post all the facts you want but that's not happening until you can stop them from turning this into a social issue when its clearly an economic issue first. (Yeah yeah - its an economic issue that has social impacts...)

[cleller]

You can post all the facts you want but that's not happening until you can stop them from turning this into a social issue when its clearly an economic issue first. (Yeah yeah - its an economic issue that has social impacts...)

Maybe its a socioeconomic issue. There's a word you see tossed into all kinds of verbal claptrap.